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View Full Version : Objectionable uses of information on this website



glen
05-09-2007, 11:22 AM
Some members have voiced their discontent with how information gathered from this site has sometimes been exploited. I would like to first explore what members would regard as an "abuse" of the information on this site. And then discuss what, if anything, should be done about it.

Audiobeer
05-09-2007, 11:29 AM
Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad. I remember copying a description from the Vintage Tuner page to an Ebay ad. I was reminded by the moderater from that page that I was infringing upon copyright laws by copying without permission. He was absolutely right.

4313B
05-09-2007, 11:32 AM
I would like to first explore what members would regard as an "abuse" of the information on this site. And then discuss what, or if, should be done about it.With respect to the membership of this website abusing information on it, the most serious abusers were actually banned. They went on to use that information to gain and enhance their "respectability" and "credibility" on other websites. What can we do? Not a whole lot. There will always be posers. Of course it is irritating to see posers get undue acknowledgement but there isn't much anyone can do about that either.

We do have some very respectful posters here which is nice. Earl springs immediately to mind.

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.

Yeah, that would be nice.

I had a real problem with allowing the bots to scrape this site but kicking them would have negatively impacted growing it so whatever.

Zilch
05-09-2007, 11:33 AM
The worst of it is when sellers copy text and/or images from the site without crediting the source. I'd find it much more acceptable if they'd link here as appropriate.

It's insulting, actually. :(

[And a copyright violation....]

kingjames
05-09-2007, 01:21 PM
I've seen ebay ad's where catalogs were sold and all the one's this guy had were on this site.Make's me believe that he copied them from here sold them on ebay and made some money. The bad thing is that most people don't know this info is available here free of charge.I believe if a current member does this then execution would be too easy.

4313B
05-09-2007, 01:26 PM
Don and Co. already had a go around with him. I think Harman said they weren't interested in going after him. It's talked about elsewhere on this site.

glen
05-09-2007, 03:29 PM
I think that it's important to make a distinction about the kinds of information on this site since each should probably be treated differently.

1. Previously Published Material: Images and text of JBL and other publications, catalogs etc. which are copyrighted by JBL, Altec, etc., but are not current information important to the business and livelihood of the copyright holder. Sharing this information was one of the major reasons that this website was founded and I love that (Thanks Don, Steve and Steve). The copyright holders have chosen not to enforce their rights to control this information either here or in other public forums where it is openly published and traded.

2. Original Articles: Often developed from first-hand research for this website that are authored and copyrighted by individual contributors and appears on the website WITH a copyright notice.

3. Proprietary Information: resulting from special knowledge or of members that is still owned and controlled by JBL (or whoever) and only appears by their special permission. This would include things like knowledge of upcoming products or current production processes. In this case the copyright holder wants to maintain control of how the information is handled if and when it is released to the public.

4. Public Posts: Appearing here in the forums, by the members. I don't believe this information is normally copyrighted even though it is often the product of significant investments of work and time, sometimes built upon years of hard-won and studiously aquired knowledge or serious first hand research. In most cases I believe that the authors are intending to share this information freely, like a letter to the editor of a newspaper. Or at least they do not have an expectation of privacy, like a conversation in a public place.

Thom
05-09-2007, 04:59 PM
Nobody likes to feel abused but if some "unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing is the worst that we're ever used we're among a lucky few walking this earth. Some that are pretty valuable members are upfront in the audio business in one way or another and at least some of them would probably charge most of us prices we might find exorbitant, but that's not a ripoff. that's the business they're in and if you "play" and won't pay those prices, you don't. Myself, I'm not too much into selling and rarely get rid of anything cheap. rarely get rid of anything period actually. I've been approached by others a few times on items I had and told them what I would let mine go for and told of others I've seen cheaper but if I did this for money I wouldn't do that and people can't be expected to do that and there are non audio things I wouldn't do that about. Also a person can't get more money for something just because someone here said he can. someone has to be willing to pay it. If it's on eBay and only one guy wants it and he doesn't want it very bad, it won't bring much money or it won't sell. Yes some people abuse but some people beet themselves up about it much more than the abuser ever could. I'm going to have to learn to type or learn to use less words.

Titanium Dome
05-09-2007, 07:02 PM
I'm going to have to learn to type or learn to use less words.

:)

I can type, but I still should use less words.

-----------

I just don't like lazy people who try to profit off the work and generosity of others, without so much as an acknowledgment or thank you. Yet, there's little to be done about it other than to make a mental note that they're assholes and have as little to do with them as possible.

Don's attitude is the best for long life.

Zilch
05-09-2007, 08:19 PM
We're not going to get anywhere with eBay without being the official VERO for the copyrights, but we can sure pile on the seller when a violation is cited here.... :yes:

Thom
05-09-2007, 10:36 PM
I just see a few members suggesting that we punish ourselves for their transgressions and I don't get it.

For anyone who thinks maybe I'm participating a bit too much. Be patient. I'll be back to work before you know it.

glen
05-10-2007, 02:49 AM
"unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing.
I understand that you may feel misled or tricked by someone who misrepresents their situation when asking for pricing advice. But I doubt that these types of questions (and the misrepresentations) will ever stop.
When you answer such questions in a public forum you will have no control over how the questioner, or anyone else viewing the forum will use that info.

If anyone here feels so personally invested in the pricing advice they give that it feels like abuse when it is used in an unforseen manner it would probably be better if they restricted the scope of, or even refrained from offering, their advice.

Some of the misrepresentation may be the result of attacks on questioners who have been up front about their mercenary motives. Some first time posters looking for help have been mercilessly derided and accused of scamming. This type of aggressive behavior didn't really encourage curious sellers to be straighforward about their intentions.

I think that you should also allow for the fact that some folks might honestly change their minds. I have ended up trading away a driver that I originally intended to keep after a member here informed me of it's rarity and value.

Which brings me to the benefits of being a place where such questions are answered whether or not the questioner is being truthful about their motives:

Sometimes really rare and interesting stuff turns up, and likely as not the more outrageous the pricing, the more interesting it is. And the discussion that it sparks will be archived here in the forum rather than stuck in an ebay auction waiting to expire.

Sellers with something to gain are highly motivated to document what they're selling. They furnish pictures, and volunteer serial numbers much more readily than most members.

Better information about a system probably WILL increase it's price. But that's really a GOOD thing. A rising tide lifts all boats, meaning that as prices rise the equipment you already own will increase in value as well. It also increases the chance that systems will be valued, collected and exchanged rather than being tossed out at the curb (where I've found a couple of systems)

So even though a person might feel "used", there are good reasons to be the place where such information is sought, and your ultimate conclusion sums it up pretty well:

. . .if some "unscrupulous" types "using" us for pricing or to back themselves up on pricing is the worst that we're ever used we're among a lucky few walking this earth. . . .

glen
05-10-2007, 03:20 AM
we can sure pile on the seller when a violation is cited here....
A violation of what?

You are one of the members who has contributed a lot of work which has benefitted the forum greatly so I really want to know what you regard as a violation and the particulars of situations where you feel you have been taken advantage of.

This thread is about trying to clearly define inappropriate or objectionable uses of information on the site.

Violation implies some existing rule has been broken, but I haven't seen any expressed or implied limitations on the use of information and images on this site and in the forums, except for some articles that are clearly marked as copyrighted.

Are you thinking of a case where a copyrighted article from this site is quoted somewhere (presumably without permission)?

glen
05-10-2007, 03:56 AM
Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.

Any copying from this website "at the very least" should be acknowledged in the ad.
Yeah, that would be nice.

I just don't like lazy people who try to profit off the work and generosity of others, without so much as an acknowledgment or thank you.

So it seems that the most common desire is that the value of the information be acknowledged with some recognition of this site as the source. Maybe also recognizing the author of a quoted post as well
We might offer a link, and/or a logo that could be included too.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24966&stc=1&d=1178792770


Yet, there's little to be done about it other than to make a mental note that they're assholes and have as little to do with them as possible..
I think before we consign them to the overcrowded realms of asshole-dom we should make an effort to express any agreed-upon preferences that we have about how information from the site is used in a way that is clear and un-missable to even a casual, novice visitor. Maybe a sticky at the top of every forum topic: "If you are using this information elsewhere . . ." within which would be spelled out exaclty how someone might use info in a way that most members would find acceptable.


I was reminded by the moderater from that page that I was infringing upon copyright laws by copying without permission. He was absolutely right.
Such a gentle reminder would probably be more effective than over-emotional needling or piling on.

glen
05-10-2007, 04:31 AM
participating a bit too much.
No Such Thing

Titanium Dome
05-10-2007, 08:13 AM
Wow, someone was up late last night and in a posting mood. ;)

To me, whether someone breaks a rule or violates some other clearly-stated principle is irrelevant to A.H. status. In addition, why should it be necessary for the site to have to define every bit of bad form in a rule or sticky?

Everyone who comes here is literate to a degree; it's required to be able to participate, although there's no rule that one needs to be literate. Literate people understand that words have power, and they also understand that some words have more power than others. Here on this site they find words that are often the most authoritative available on a Lansing-related topic.

They understand that the use of these words will enhance their ability to sell an item for profit, or enhance their ability to appear authoritative on a topic, or improve their appearance of being literate, or simply will save them time and effort and the tedium of doing any honest intellectual work themselves. Some even enjoy the fact that it's unguarded and easy to steal.

So they just take it.

There's no "Please" or "Thank you."

This is deliberate. It's not an accident. They know that it's a form of theft, that it's dishonest. But they're lazy, or greedy, or ethically dead—whatever.

We can't stop it, though educating them might help some. Education usually has helped me. However, my point isn't about stopping it. It's that these people live in A.H.-dom, as you put it, and I'm just calling it as I see it. :)

I don't mind seeing information from this site included in honest auctions or postings on other sites if it's credited to the site or to the original poster. That at least is intellectually honest.

X_X
05-10-2007, 08:58 AM
So it seems the biggest concern is when information is exploited for profit. Am I correct? I have trouble with that one. I can find the construction plans for various models free of charge on this site, and if I sell these plans somewhere else for profit- it's wrong. I can see that one. However, what if I used those same plans to construct a speaker and I sell that for profit? Is that wrong, too? Since I am adding a service, I certainly don't think so. Yet, some people would consider their sourcing of the information, compiling it into printed pages, and shipping to your door, as part of their 'services'. It's a grey area.

And what about reproduction foilcals? While not a violation of this site's information, per se- it is definately dipping into unauthorized use of a company logo. HK doesn't seem to mind that one, either. Strange. The foilcal is the signature of the company. The company builds a product and the badge says to the world that this is a bonafide product produced by "us". Throughout history, when imitation products were produced- it was only when the imitators started faking the logos that they were prosecuted.

In the case for this site and it's information: Unless the rules and punishments are clearly outlined- there is no violation. If exploitation of (and/or other mistreatments of) information is a concern- the admin need only place a simple disclaimer on material that he wishes to be protected. A general disclaimer for the entire site is too vague. An opaque overlay or even a right click warning window would do the trick. Then, if and when a "violation" occurs- it is obvious and beyond excuse.

Vanimal at Manley uses her eBay ID's to bid on bogus auctions of her products. One of her ID's is:

Do_not_bid_bogus_auction

Maybe we need a few bidding ID's like these:

this_information_free_at_audioheritage_dot_org

or (my favorite)

seller_is_an_idiot

Zilch
05-10-2007, 10:53 AM
Are you thinking of a case where a copyrighted article from this site is quoted somewhere (presumably without permission)?Yes, in particular the recent wholesale lifting of an article in the Library.

That's clearly copyrighted material, and I'm saying, even if site administration does not have the resources to pursue that sort of violation, the membership certainly can clue the seller in via "Ask seller a question."

A seller receiving one of those might ignore it as coming from a crackpot. If they receive twenty, they might start to consider that their sale is being impacted by the mere lack of a simple credit of the source.

That wouldn't satisfy the letter of the law, of course, which also requires permission to reprint, but it would be less of an insult.

I'm with TiDome. They know full well what they're doing, and their "Internet is public domain" rationalization is merely convenient coverup for their intellectual dishonesty....

glen
05-10-2007, 11:43 AM
Wow, someone was up late last night and in a posting mood. ;)
Up late, posting, soo sleepy Zzzzzz Zzzzzzhttp://daweb/components/com_akocomment/packs/original/sm_sleep.gif (javascript:ac_smilie(':zzz');)

To me, whether someone breaks a rule or violates some other clearly-stated principle is irrelevant to A.H. status. In addition, why should it be necessary for the site to have to define every bit of bad form in a rule or sticky?
I started the thread because I felt that the principles being violated were NOT clearly stated and if the membership is going to gripe about it then it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY to communicate clear rules to website visitors. I have been surprised at just how upset and violated some folks here feel and I am sure that some (not all) "transgressors" would be more careful if there some guidelines offered about how to use info WITHOUT stepping on someones toes. I just think it's good etiquette, like informing a visitor to your home who comes from another culture what the ground rules are in your house, and being gracious when a visitor offends out of ignorance. Of course there will always be a "Borat" or two, but I think most would make some effort to toe the line if they were made aware of some clear and reasonable guidelines up front. I would like for them to have that opportunity so maybe some of bruising and battering can be avoided.


Everyone who comes here is literate to a degree; . . . They know that it's a form of theft, that it's dishonest. But they're lazy, or greedy, or ethically dead—whatever.

We can't stop it, though educating them might help some.

A lot of members on this site are intellectually and ethically exceptional people and certainly a cut or two above the web-surfing masses who made Napster the biggest phenomenon on the internet (until it was forced to observe copyright laws). When Moses went to the mountain top he didn't get handed a stone tablet that said "You're Literate, You should know this stuff already...", it got spelled out. That's probably a good example for dealing with our own golden-calf worshippers.

I don't mind seeing information from this site included in honest auctions or postings on other sites if it's credited to the site or to the original poster. That at least is intellectually honest.
Credit, recognition, acknowledgement, attribution. The desire for this keeps recurring.
And I have seen several ebay auctions that specifically cite our site as the authoritative source. Maybe we should explore what form that should take in another thread and leave this open for other objectionable issues?

Titanium Dome
05-10-2007, 12:19 PM
Hi Nathan. At least from my viewpoint, it's not just about profit.

I wrote



They understand that the use of these words will enhance their ability to sell an item for profit, or enhance their ability to appear authoritative on a topic, or improve their appearance of being literate, or simply will save them time and effort and the tedium of doing any honest intellectual work themselves. Some even enjoy the fact that it's unguarded and easy to steal.

(snip)

I don't mind seeing information from this site included in honest auctions or postings on other sites if it's credited to the site or to the original poster. That at least is intellectually honest.

You wrote

So it seems the biggest concern is when information is exploited for profit.

Titanium Dome
05-10-2007, 12:29 PM
Sorry Glen. I swear this is it.


When Moses went to the mountain top he didn't get handed a stone tablet that said "You're Literate, You should know this stuff already...", it got spelled out. That's probably a good example for dealing with our own golden-calf worshippers.


Maybe we should explore what form that should take in another thread and leave this open for other objectionable issues?

It wouldn't matter what the tablets said, they were all illiterate except for the priests. :D Theirs was an oral tradition at that point. It had to be written down to be stablelized, I suppose, since oral tradition drifts over time. By chiseling out those tablets, Moses forced everyone, priests included, to toe the line. No more creative license for priests in their sermonizing. ("Crap. I can't change it now, it's written down.")

Today, Jehovah could just email everybody. ;)

Anyway that's way OT. Your point is taken. This is my last comment on this topic in this thread. :)

glen
05-11-2007, 01:10 AM
Sorry Glen. I swear this is it.
I really don't know what you're apologizing for? I have not been offended by anything you said, hope I didn't come across like I was.

Anyway that's way OT. Your point is taken. This is my last comment on this topic in this thread. :)
You were very much on topic and honest about your feelings and maybe more in tune with other members than I am. It's a topic that seems to touch a bit of a raw nerve in a way I don't think I fully appreciate, makes it hard to boil it down to simple solutions. Your last comment on any topic would be a sad occasion, but thanks for your participation.

Today, Jehovah could just email everybody. ;)
Actually emailing a welcome message to new members sounds like a great method to aquaint them with expected forum etiquette in a direct way that requires no effort or intelligence on their part.

glen
05-11-2007, 11:11 AM
Yes, in particular the recent wholesale lifting of an article in the Library.

That's clearly copyrighted material, and I'm saying, even if site administration does not have the resources to pursue that sort of violation, the membership certainly can clue the seller in via "Ask seller a question."
That sounds pretty reasonable. In a few cases it might help if the copyright was more prominent, of if there was an authors by-line: "article by Don McRitchie ©2005 All Rights Reserved". But that probably would not stop most of those violators.


they might start to consider that their sale is being impacted by the mere lack of a simple credit of the source. If it's copyrighted material it would need to have that copyright © notice reproduced in addition to crediting the source. Is that enough consideration to satisfy the copyright holder?
Also Ebay is a big multi-million dollar entity with a lot at stake, they might have enforcement procedures against reproduction of copyrighted material without permission. Worth checking out next time it occurs.


That wouldn't satisfy the letter of the law, of course, which also requires permission to reprint, but it would be less of an insult.
It would satisfy one key part of the law: If you do not assert your rights eventually it's is as if you are surrendering them. Magazines catering to professinal writers often carry ads from manufacturers of trade-marked brand names like "Kleenex" and "Band-Aid" asking that those names that are the property of the makers not be used in a generic manner. It doesn't stop it from happening, but it does help maintain a legal basis for the maker to go to court if their trademarks are used in a detrimental way.
So objecting IS useful.

A seller receiving one of those might ignore it as coming from a crackpot.
Does anybody here have a lawyer in the family? Preferably one with a web prescence.
My Dad was a lawyer (passed away) and I will tell you that a simple phone call or letter from someone that actually has the power to take them to court will definitely make them think twice. Some kind of officious email under the name of a bona-fide lawyer would stop at least some of these jokers.

Zilch
05-11-2007, 11:26 AM
Also Ebay is a big multi-million dollar entity with a lot at stake, they might have enforcement procedures against reproduction of copyrighted material without permission. Worth checking out next time it occurs.eBay has a system, yes, "VeRO."

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html

LH Site administration must register there as copyright holder. Once that is complete, eBay will end any auctions reported by the registered VeRO. That relieves eBay of any involvement.

The dispute, if any, is then between the seller and the VeRO.

The registration must be in place ahead of time, so waiting for the next occurance would not be the optimum strategy.

Multiple representatives are accommotated by VeRO, so all moderators and administrators could be empowered to report violations via a single registration....