A Forum Membership Fee

[Earl K]

Hi All,

- I'd like to see this forum charge an annual membership fee .

- I haven't included a "poll" on this question / since / this forum isn't run as a democracy & changes like this will only occur at the pleasure of the proprieters .

Membership would include ;

(A) The ability to post into all public threads .
(B) The ability to read ( "see" ) all the attachments within the threads ( excluding the Lansing Library information ) .


Reasons ?

(i) Right now, any casual internet traveller has the capacity to view & download attachments . IMO, this knowledge ought to be restricted to paying members .

(ii) Restricting membership to those willing to pay will begin to exclude the onslought of spammers that are hitting this site, more frequently than ever..

(iii) Attaching an annual fee to the site will buffer the regulars from 1 shot ( "driveby" ) price appraisals . This will begin to disengage this site from directly feeding the eBay valuation frenzy ... ( Driving up the prices of used wornout transducers till they are on par with JBLs new transducers , is just plain wrong ( IMHO ) ) .


FWIW ;
- I'm not very hardcore about these changes / but understand that I always used to appreciate the older forums regular "capsizing" and then sinking ( usually due to the stress of growth ).
- This had a very profound "cleansing" action for each new forum that emerged from it's predecessor.
- The system crashes of old had a built in "natural ecology", that is now sadly lacking .

:)

- Another thought is to just take this forum offline for a month at a time ( chosen at random by the proprieters ) with no notice given to the unwary ...
- This would be akin to a "controlled burn" in " forestry parlance ".

[4313B]

Good points!

[grumpy]

Opinion -> I have no problem with there being a fee for membership.
As a resource, it has the potential to pay for itself.

It might still be useful to have a moderated -isolated- area for non-members
for the one-shot "I've got a question..." folks. Perhaps a searchable FAQ
could be the result.

-grumpy

Added: If imposed, I would think the fee should not be such that it's a limiting factor for real participants...
even a one-time donation might work.

[sourceoneaudio]

I think it would be a good thing to induce a fee. A fair fee price $25.00 a year, remember members it is tax deductible. One reason the forum is getting hit so bad with value questions on vintage gear, and the end result driving up the price on everything. If you do a Google search on a specific item or driver array, the search results automatically bring up threads from the forum. This is over exposing the site.

Yes, Google is great for doing research on all topics, but if the moderators of the site could incorporate a filter on the threads, a lot of the unwanted on lookers would fade away.

J/S-S1A :D

[BMWCCA]

If the point is to thwart spammers and discourage treasure hunters, I think a fee of $10 is sufficient to work that magic. Of course if the powers-that-be think a mandatory $25 is what they need, I'll just have to give it some consideration. :no:

Tax deductible only works if your deductions are itemized and exceed the standard deduction. Like when your medical expenses exceed 40% of income or some other IRS standard of fairness.

What's driving up prices is what people are willing to pay on Ebay. Easy to search completed auctions and see what stuff brings. You don't need this site for that. What the market will bear is a reflection on the value the buyer places on his dollar. Just like you probably think a $25 fee is nothing, where for me that's the one dinner out a week I treat my family to (Local small restaurant with reasonable prices and we often share an entrée and skip dessert.), or half a tank of gas. Paying two college tuitions makes you think twice about stuff like cable fees, local phone charges, and Internet-group surcharges!

[SEAWOLF97]

, remember members it is tax deductible.

and why would that be ? Do you think Don has filed the "not for profit" paperwork ? :barf:

there are other ways to filter out the spammers, who , while annoying , have not really impacted anything, as the mods stay on top of it pretty well.

[sourceoneaudio]

and why would that be ? Do you think Don has filed the "not for profit" paperwork ? :barf:

there are other ways to filter out the spammers, who , while annoying , have not really impacted anything, as the mods stay on top of it pretty well.


The site is driven by charitable contributions correct?

It will go in the pile of contributions at the end of the year just like the receipt for the Eargle.


J/S-S1A :D

[Mr. Widget]

there are other ways to filter out the spammers, who , while annoying , have not really impacted anything, as the mods stay on top of it pretty well.They've impacted me plenty... I personally have been banning new members and deleting a minimum of a couple of threads a day... and so have the other moderators. That may seem like a minor annoyance to some, but it is a pain that I'd rather not be faced with.

The idea of charging admission has been bounced around before. There are several reasons that it is best left as a free site with donations encouraged. Don may decide to charge a small fee at some point in the future, but I would kind of doubt it.

We will certainly have to figure out a reasonable method for restricting access to reduce the spam. A few methods are being discussed. As for easy access to our posts? I personally don't care who sees the stuff. If Don decides he'd like to restrict attachments to members as it was in years past we may go back to that format, but it really doesn't make much of a difference since anyone can become a member... as long as they don't abuse the privilege once they are here.


Widget

[hjames]

The site is driven by charitable contributions correct?

It will go in the pile of contributions at the end of the year just like the receipt for the Eargle.


J/S-S1A :D

Ah - so because you claim it, it must be a charity! :applaud:

Brilliant!! Brilliant!!

he he he

[scott fitlin]

I've suggested this before, and I feel we should charge a nominal membership fee.

I have been knocking out spammers left and right. I see new members, I can tell by the ip address, and some other things that they are spammers, I knock em out. It does get tiring after a while though, I would like to see something that stops spammers from even entering our front door.

Membership dues could be a small fee, doesnt have to be expensive.

[sourceoneaudio]

Ah - so because you claim it, it must be a charity! :applaud:

Brilliant!! Brilliant!!

he he he

If we want to see less crap on the site, keep the key word is DONATION, and the people who DONATE have more access to more information. We could call it the DONATION FILTER. If the site charges a membership fee that would not be deductible because we would be considered members of a club paying a annual dues. I made a mistake in my above post. So the key word is DONATION not dues.

J/S-S1A :D

[scott fitlin]

But, lets say membership dues were $10.00/yr, that is a nominal fee, one that wouldnt break anyones bank?

It would be enough to keep the spammers out, and cheap enough for our members to not have to feel the pinch!

:banghead:

[sourceoneaudio]

$10.00 is fair. ;)

J/S-S1A :blink:

[hjames]

If we want to see less crap on the site, keep the key word is DONATION, and the people who DONATE have more access to more information. We could call it the DONATION FILTER. If the site charges a membership fee that would not be deductible because we would be considered members of a club paying a annual dues. I made a mistake in my above post. So the key word is DONATION not dues.

J/S-S1A :D
'twas meant to be playful - not mean spirited ...

I do agree - I mark as much spam as I can see and I KNOW its got to be a pain for all the mods to keep up.

Personally, I donate a couple times over the year as this is a very helpful site and I've been on a real speaker kick for the last few years - I mean, I just sold my '76 first-set-of JBLs to help fund the next set (coming soon) ... but I rely on this site for all kinds of information and resources.

$10 a year would be cheap enough to not lose those on a budget, but frankly, ANY price should be enough to keep out SPAMMERS - they rely on free access to make it worth their while.

And if we want to send extra money, that option is always available, right??

[JBLRaiser]

If the point is to thwart spammers and discourage treasure hunters, I think a fee of $10 is sufficient to work that magic. Of course if the powers-that-be think a mandatory $25 is what they need, I'll just have to give it some consideration. :no:

Tax deductible only works if your deductions are itemized and exceed the standard deduction. Like when your medical expenses exceed 40% of income or some other IRS standard of fairness.

What's driving up prices is what people are willing to pay on Ebay. Easy to search completed auctions and see what stuff brings. You don't need this site for that. What the market will bear is a reflection on the value the buyer places on his dollar. Just like you probably think a $25 fee is nothing, where for me that's the one dinner out a week I treat my family to (Local small restaurant with reasonable prices and we often share an entrée and skip dessert.), or half a tank of gas. Paying two college tuitions makes you think twice about stuff like cable fees, local phone charges, and Internet-group surcharges!

This is just a joke, right? Aren't you the Beamer collector? Now you claim you are poor? Maybe we can take up a collection for you.:p

[edgewound]

Once a membership fee is charged, the site now becomes a business for the owner.

That opens up a whole new set of beauracracy that will need to be reported to the IRS.

That question should be up to Don to answer.

Of course it could open up new revenue streams by selling ad space, etc. like ProSoundWeb and AudioKarma....but would the revenue be sufficient to warrant the PITA of keeping detailed business records, filing fictitious business statements, paying business taxes and fees....et.al?

There are something like 20 or less active posters.

The forum would disappear if a fee were charged. The best way to kill a hobbyist forum is to charge a membership fee.

It would lose the battle for discretionary income.

[scott fitlin]

I have to say something. It really riles me to no end to see anyone scoff at the idea of 10 bucks, or even 25 bucks a years dues fee.

Where can you go, and get the kind of info you get here for any price, let alone for free?

What exists on this site, xover tuning tricks, cabinet tuning, and alignment methods, driver selection for optimal results, youll not get from anyone like you get here.

You know what? My time as a moderator is donated! What is my time worth? Policing the site is time consuming, and I do it for free. So do the other mods, therefore, anything that allows me my time to not have to follow the spammers around and constantly dump chumps is worthwhile to me!

Or would you rather a site where you open a thread, and see a pornographic picture?

Ultimately, however, the final decision on whether or not to charge membership dues are not up to me, I merely make my suggestions.

If spam werent a problem we wouldnt be having this discussion at all, but, spam has become a problem. And its a problem that requires peoples time to eliminate the garbage from piling up on the site.

People, any of you that sell on eBay pay a FEE to sell your wares on ebay,so, if we did charge a nominal membership fee, whats the problem? It isnt like we would be looking for $500/yr!

:banghead:

[scott fitlin]

Once a membership fee is charged, the site now becomes a business for the owner.

That opens up a whole new set of beauracracy that will need to be reported to the IRS.

That question should be up to Don to answer.

Of course it could open up new revenue streams by selling ad space, etc. like ProSoundWeb and AudioKarma....but would the revenue be sufficient to warrant the PITA of keeping detailed business records, filing fictitious business statements, paying business taxes and fees....et.al?

There are something like 20 or less active posters.

The forum would disappear if a fee were charged. The best way to kill a hobbyist forum is to charge a membership fee.

It would lose the battle for discretionary income.I see your point, Edge, but, Ill also say that I feel websites are the magazines of the 21st century.

I stated this before, and I say it again, it could also, done properly, be a good buisiness, and offer really good value for the money!

I dont care if they charge or not, but, I personally, would like to see SOMETHING that alleviates the spam problem without us mods having to delete them every time they pop up.

[hjames]

Or, as another member posted - set it so the first posting requires a Mod approval to make it public ...
i don't know the logistics of coding such a feature - but it sounds helpful from the Mods point of view - and for the real members not getting slapped with the Spams ...

[JBLRaiser]

I have to say something. It really riles me to no end to see anyone scoff at the idea of 10 bucks, or even 25 bucks a years dues fee.

Where can you go, and get the kind of info you get here for any price, let alone for free?

What exists on this site, xover tuning tricks, cabinet tuning, and alignment methods, driver selection for optimal results, youll not get from anyone like you get here.

You know what? My time as a moderator is donated! What is my time worth? Policing the site is time consuming, and I do it for free. So do the other mods, therefore, anything that allows me my time to not have to follow the spammers around and constantly dump chumps is worthwhile to me!

Or would you rather a site where you open a thread, and see a pornographic picture?

Ultimately, however, the final decision on whether or not to charge membership dues are not up to me, I merely make my suggestions.

If spam werent a problem we wouldnt be having this discussion at all, but, spam has become a problem. And its a problem that requires peoples time to eliminate the garbage from piling up on the site.

People, any of you that sell on eBay pay a FEE to sell your wares on ebay,so, if we did charge a nominal membership fee, whats the problem? It isnt like we would be looking for $500/yr!

:banghead:

I would never have known about my model 19's and the ultimate joy they have brought me without this site. If $25 per year is considered too much to consider for the value returned, then owning JBL's/Altecs is probably outside that person's affordability factor. Most of the time, I'm hearing how much stuff people here own in gear. Maybe selling something would free up some discretionary funds.

[sourceoneaudio]

'twas meant to be playful - not mean spirited ...

I do agree - I mark as much spam as I can see and I KNOW its got to be a pain for all the mods to keep up.



$10 a year would be cheap enough to not lose those on a budget, but frankly, ANY price should be enough to keep out SPAMMERS - they rely on free access to make it worth their while.

And if we want to send extra money, that option is always available, right??

Heather,
I know you were playing around. I was adding to the fun, all though the DONATION FILTER is a good idea..................:applaud: and I'm serious about that. I can read into fun no worries. Nice flower garden by the way.

J/S-S1A :blink:

[4313B]

Or, as another member posted - set it so the first posting requires a Mod approval to make it public ...I really like that idea! :yes: It would have avoided the single worst disaster this site has yet witnessed.

[scott fitlin]

I really like that idea! :yes: It would have avoided the single worst disaster this site has yet witnessed.Yes, that can work, and that is done on other sites too.

Posts are submitted for moderator approval, then it goes from there. Once a newbie is known they can be taken off needing moderator approval, and spam never makes it out of the bullpen, but, this, too, requires someones time to do.

[sourceoneaudio]

Yes, that can work, and that is done on other sites too.

Posts are submitted for moderator approval, then it goes from there. Once a newbie is known they can be taken off needing moderator approval, and spam never makes it out of the bullpen, but, this, too, requires someones time to do.


That is how it is done on this site.

http://www.diyaudio.com/


I takes ten post to be cleared for landing. (unlimited use) They take donations as does this site, then they moderate up to your tenth post.



J/S-S1A :D

[BMWCCA]

This is just a joke, right? Aren't you the Beamer collector? Now you claim you are poor? Maybe we can take up a collection for you.:pNot that the question (or my answer) is germane to this discussion but....
There are lots of collectors out there. Some of you collect Paragons, others collect L100s. I've owned JBLs longer than I've owned BMW's and I no longer have my first BMW, but I do have my first JBL.

I believe you're discussing two different issues here. One is how to quash the sp*ammers. The other is how to fund this site. One solution may do both but don't confuse the issues or assume a financial status for others in which you may be fortunate enough to find yourselves. Since it was my suggestion to have a new member's first post fall under moderation (not the first time I've suggested it), and that seems to have garnered support from others here, I'd love to hear from the revered (and I mean that sincerely) Mods as to how such an idea might be administered given this site's format and architecture. Enough about Marxian economics. I enjoy my cheap JBLs at least as much as you fortunate ones enjoy yours...maybe even that much more!
:applaud:

[4313B]

The other is how to fund this site.Actually that is probably John and Ann's decision as well as Don's. Don, Steve, Steve and my time have been free of charge as has been the admin and mod staff.

[Titanium Dome]

Actually that is probably John and Ann's decision as well as Don's. Don, Steve, Steve and my time have been free of charge as has been the admin and mod staff.

All true and appreciated, not to mention many labors of love like Glen's (and others like Hanspeter) registry and so on.

Earl brings up many good points, though keeping the site nonprofit makes things more difficult than otherwise. Many nonprofit entities also charge membership fees, but it does make the bookkeeping a whole lot more complicated than just taking donations. We don't want to start listing assets and appraising the value of in kind services, etc. Keep it simple.

Moderation of new members' posts would be one solution and would take less time than searching for and deleting new spam accounts each day. All posts from members under a certain posting threshold would automatically queue up in a folder before being allowed on the site.

It needs to be more than a single post, though, and that increases the workload somewhat. If my first post is "Hi, I'm supertweeter1 and I'm new to the site. Thought I'd say hello." What's a mod going to do? It seems okay, so it gets posted and I'm now in the clear. My second post: "Viagra, cialis, and more at Canadian pharmacy prices. Click here: XXXXXXXX."

:eek:

[edgewound]

That is how it is done on this site.

http://www.diyaudio.com/

I takes ten post to be cleared for landing. (unlimited use)

J/S-S1A :D


I've noticed, and I'll re-iterate...

Most all of the forums I've visited include some sort of paid advertising. Either a "vendors" section or banner ad links or such.

I don't know what arrangement Don has with Harman, but couldn't it be possible that if Don were to start making a profit, the Harman attorney's might come calling asking for their share?...or cease and desist.

This is a manufacturer-specific site that covers current product too, and that could lead to Harman wanting control of everything....intellectual property.... including revenue.

Any thoughts on this, or am I way off-base?

Here come the replies....:D

[kingjames]

I think the info on this site should only be available to it's members (paid members).I have changed my views on this subject for the following reasons.

1. The info obtained here through our discussions have driven the prices through the roof on ebay and I think we are somewhat the cause of people parting out complete system's. I am guilty of this as I have parted a few pairs recently on the bay. I felt the cabinets were beyond repair but I am no woodworker and maybe this should be left to the experts in wood working.

2.This is an apprasial house whether you like it or not.People come here to see what their stuff is worth then realize through our discussions that it is easy to part stuff out on the bay and make huge sums. They are not interested in discussions and their only involvement is to learn what they can get for something.This would be eliminated by a fee.

3.Spammers like it here because they know there is a good number of people here at any given time. This would be eliminated by a fee.

4.All you have to do is look on ebay and see how many system's are being parted out,quite a few lately and it's going up every week. Where do you think they get their info from? You don't even have to be a member here and you get free apprasial's just by reading.This has to stop or there ain't gonna be no JBL'S to buy (complete systems anyway).

5.This site is the best in the business where JBl is concerned,it even has more info then JBL's site.We are now in a world where the word Free has consequences.If you want to stop the upward prices of JBL parts, if you want to keep the remaining sytems together for future generations,if you want to restrict this info to a handful of people,then you must charge a fee to eliminate the people who's only interest in JBl ,is monetary.

[Zilch]

Moderation of new members' posts would be one solution and would take less time than searching for and deleting new spam accounts each day.Enable the post reporting function. Members can make the moderators' task easier using that.

20 reports on a post, and it's likely to be spam.

[Or Storm behavin' badly.... :p ]

[JBLRaiser]

I've noticed, and I'll re-iterate...

Most all of the forums I've visited include some sort of paid advertising. Either a "vendors" section or banner ad links or such.

I don't know what arrangement Don has with Harman, but couldn't it be possible that if Don were to start making a profit, the Harman attorney's might come calling asking for their share?...or cease and desist.

This is a manufacturer-specific site that covers current product too, and that could lead to Harman wanting control of everything....intellectual property.... including revenue.

Any thoughts on this, or am I way off-base?

Here come the replies....:D

Yet, to what good would a 'cease and desist' order gain? Bad publicity at the very least. This is a community, where we are attempting to protect our forum from unwanted intruders, make life as pleasant as possible for those who volunteer their time and services and lastly to offer a vintage JBL source for the world to access.. What income this site would generate if garnered by Harman, would be offset by the community uproar if it ever came to that. It would seem reasonable that Harman would want this site to flourish whatever shape it must take. But, as my Dad used to tell me, 'assume nothing'.

[mwaldron]

:blink:
The other value added forums that I participate in have varying levels of membership ranging from free to lifetime. These different levels grant varying levels of privileges.

Free members can read posts as guests.
Active members (nominal annual fee/donation) involved can post and perform basic thread searches.
Lifers are granted full access to all site features and archives.

I just discovered LH recently as I embark upon accumulating components to build my dream system. First knock out of the box all
I see is that “0” posters are going to get deleted, hum I say to myself how do I avoid getting deleted, it’ll probably be six months or so before I am brave enough to stick my toe in this talent pool. Money, yeah that’s the ticket I’ll become a “paid-up” subscriber; they’ll never delete me then.

Oh wait money isn’t the answer, some of the regulars think this isn’t a financial issue (sorry that’s BS it costs money to do this stuff, at this level)

Yes this is my first post, I’m a contributing member, please moderate my post, limit my access, what ever we needed to keep this afloat at the quality that it is and don’t delete me out of convenience.

Presumptuous first post huh, I apologize in advance but this is a cool place, with cool things happening, and I just found it! I don’t want to lose it already for lack of trying.

mw

[JBLRaiser]

Not that the question (or my answer) is germane to this discussion but....
There are lots of collectors out there. Some of you collect Paragons, others collect L100s. I've owned JBLs longer than I've owned BMW's and I no longer have my first BMW, but I do have my first JBL. Not that is is of any importance to this thread, but our family's daily driver fleet consists of a 170,000-mile '98 318ti (love the fuel economy), a 230,000-mile '87 535is, a 125,000-mile 1995 525i 5sp, and a 200,000-mile '91 Plymouth Voyager that Heather's seen live and in person. None of those BMWs cost me over $5500. True enough, I own twenty BMWs, in various states of condition, including five convertibles models from 1958 to 1970, none of which cost me more than the most expensive daily driver and most of which we've owned for twenty-years or more. My newest motorcycle is over 25-years-old and the most expensive of those cost me $2500. One man's p*ss is another man's porridge!

Collector? Sure. Wealthy just because I own a BMW, or JBLs, or Crown amps? Not hardly. I also work sound reinforcement jobs on the side for chump change just to feed my hobbies. The income from my "real" job goes to pay for my kids' education. Certainly $25/year won't make a dent in my educational expenses, but if the point is truly to discourage spammers and pirates, then I still believe $25 is more than necessary for that purpose. Those who want to donate above and beyond are always welcome to do so voluntarily. And I will, too, as I have done for other sites I derive benefit and/or entertainment from.

I believe you're discussing two different issues here. One is how to quash the sp*ammers. The other is how to fund this site. One solution may do both but don't confuse the issues or assume a financial status for others in which you may be fortunate enough to find yourselves. Since it was my suggestion to have a new member's first post fall under moderation (not the first time I've suggested it), and that seems to have garnered support from others here, I'd love to hear from the revered (and I mean that sincerely) Mods as to how such an idea might be administered given this site's format and architecture. Enough about Marxian economics. I enjoy my cheap JBLs at least as much as you fortunate ones enjoy yours...maybe even that much more!
:applaud:

I misunderstood. Thought you were singing the stash rich, cash poor blues. A fee will help to weed out the spammers. It will cost them each time they post and we will appreciate this service even more than we already do. I vote a fee.:banana:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Once a membership fee is charged, the site now becomes a business for the owner.

That opens up a whole new set of beauracracy that will need to be reported to the IRS.

That question should be up to Don to answer.

Of course it could open up new revenue streams by selling ad space, etc. like ProSoundWeb and AudioKarma....but would the revenue be sufficient to warrant the PITA of keeping detailed business records, filing fictitious business statements, paying business taxes and fees....et.al?

There are something like 20 or less active posters.

The forum would disappear if a fee were charged. The best way to kill a hobbyist forum is to charge a membership fee.

It would lose the battle for discretionary income.

Edge,

I think it already is ( a non profit business) in a sense as there is money in the coffers and a treasurer.

Not meaning to sound back handed but donations and membership fee are two very different things. You can donate to a hospital or a political party and you can have a membership fee or a subscription to a service or become a member of an association or a club.

I am not sure how that can be easily defined as funds would be used for maintaining forum software and projects like Project May in this situation.

On that score if a forum is deemed to have club organisational entity or other type of entity a lot would need to change. If the former there needs registration and set of articles of association or a constitution like any other club that all members vote and agree too. (it would by necessity become democratic and this is legally the case in Australia).

I recall very early on there was simple choice of allowing lurkers or vistors to view and then register or register and then view. If that latter was arrange for at least the non reference in the library areas and filters were set up for certain types of post data it would eliminate a lot of spam

Spamming and membership (fee) are two different issues.

Jason over at diyaudio.com seems to have a working model for funding the site.

[sourceoneaudio]

Enable the post reporting function. Members can make the moderators' task easier using that.

20 reports on a post, and it's likely to be spam.

[Or Storm behavin' badly.... :p ]


:rotfl::rotfl:Or the relentless non learning about how big of P.O.S. the T-35 is!!!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=164845&postcount=5
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=164872&postcount=7

J/S-S1A :D

[Rolf]

First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not to high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.

BUT: A word of warning.

Now there might be a site fee. Next maybe a moderator fee. Then maybe a Teck fee. Then maybe a fee for each forum.

This must not be allowed to happen.

Another thing is that if a fee should be charged at all the "fun" must be brought back to this site. You all know what I mean.

[JBLRaiser]

First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not to high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.

BUT: A word of warning.

Now there might be a site fee. Next maybe a moderator fee. Then maybe a Teck fee. Then maybe a fee for each forum.

This must not be allowed to happen.

Another thing is that if a fee should be charged at all the "fun" must be brought back to this site. You all know what I mean.

This site is addictive. Once you stay here for awhile, you become interested in the different audio topics and brings you back again and again. You know how many of us posted on the OT and did less posting in audio sections because of it. Even if it is just an audio question, many times new knowledge is learned from just asking. Sometimes a question may trigger some knowledge you have that helps someone else. The past is past and we must move on. Beside, the neocons were kicking the neocrats arse's and that had to stop.:slink:

[SEAWOLF97]

All the replies have been tactical, not strategic...

The forum would not be a "non profit charity" . Someone will have to declare the income and most likely kick himself up into another tax bracket.

The treasurer is going to have fun. Unhappy members ...do they get refunds ? What are the new liabilities now that its "for profit" ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The mods are fighting spammers in an "old manual mode" . Darned near every site on the web has mail back verification. Cant be that hard ?

Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ? Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.:blink:

[hjames]

Nah - you make a folks click through a membership agreement that includes the statement that off topic ad posts, in this agreement to be considered as SPAM, will not be tolerated and the associated member will loose membership rights and forfeit any funds paid to the website.

Its not hard to write anti spammer rules, once they don't get a free entry to the site.




Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ?
Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.:blink:

[jim campbell]

I have to say something. It really riles me to no end to see anyone scoff at the idea of 10 bucks, or even 25 bucks a years dues fee.

Where can you go, and get the kind of info you get here for any price, let alone for free?

What exists on this site, xover tuning tricks, cabinet tuning, and alignment methods, driver selection for optimal results, youll not get from anyone like you get here.

You know what? My time as a moderator is donated! What is my time worth? Policing the site is time consuming, and I do it for free. So do the other mods, therefore, anything that allows me my time to not have to follow the spammers around and constantly dump chumps is worthwhile to me!

Or would you rather a site where you open a thread, and see a pornographic picture?

Ultimately, however, the final decision on whether or not to charge membership dues are not up to me, I merely make my suggestions.

If spam werent a problem we wouldnt be having this discussion at all, but, spam has become a problem. And its a problem that requires peoples time to eliminate the garbage from piling up on the site.

People, any of you that sell on eBay pay a FEE to sell your wares on ebay,so, if we did charge a nominal membership fee, whats the problem? It isnt like we would be looking for $500/yr!

:banghead:if spam is the problem lets bill them.ten or twenty bucks aint going to break the bank but im getting tired of having to foot to the bill for the bad behaviour of others.

[Baron030]

Quoted by Rolf:


First I like to say that I am willing to pay a fee to get access to this site, as long as the fee is not too high. $25 max, $10 might be the right amount a year.

I would do it, because I have been a member a long time, know this site, but I believe most newcomers will never be members, and the site will probably loose some people that should be here.


Rolf's comment touches a nerve here. When I made my first posting back on 4/13/2005, no one responded to my question for nearly 3 months. And when I finally did get some responses, not all of them appeared to be friendly. So, as a newcomer, I was not sure what to make of this site. If I had been hit up for money every time I visited this site two years ago, then I would not be a paying member now. It takes time to get to know this site and to truly see its benefits. So, Rolf's point about, "the site will probably loose some people that should be here", is absolutely true. Personally, I would rather make donations rather then pay fees. But, if we do decide to go with some kind of annual fees or dues, then $10 to $25 a year sounds about right to me.

Baron030

[SMKSoundPro]

$32.50/year.

"Hey brother, can you spare a dime" (a day.)

Scott.

I have always been willing to put my money where my mouth is. I plan to donate my Alaska Permanent Dividend check into the donation pot to help wih Project May. Sounds like GRAND cause.

PS. I am the president of a 501C3 non-profit corp and we have membership dues, pull-tab games and give away college scholarships to needy Alaskans. Setting up a non-profit social organization, such as the Moose or Elk's lodge, is not tough to do, and in my short time here, consider almost all of you brothers and sister(HJ.) We were to fly to JackGiff's home for the comparo just to meet like-minded individuals. We're not amway dealers, or anything like that...just good folk looking for like-minded speaker doods & dude-ettes(HJ) to converse with and learn and share the collective knowledge.

[sourceoneaudio]

$32.50/year.

"Hey brother, can you spare a dime" (a day.)

Scott.

I have always been willing to put my money where my mouth is. I plan to donate my Alaska Permanent Dividend check into the donation pot to help wih Project May. Sounds like GRAND cause.

PS. I am the president of a 501C3 non-profit corp and we have membership dues, pull-tab games and give away college scholarships to needy Alaskans. Setting up a non-profit social organization, such as the Moose or Elk's lodge, is not tough to do, and in my short time here, consider almost all of you brothers and sister(HJ.) We were to fly to JackGiff's home for the comparo just to meet like-minded individuals. We're not amway dealers, or anything like that...just good folk looking for like-minded speaker doods & dude-ettes(HJ) to converse with and learn and share the collective knowledge.


:applaud::applaud::applaud:

J/S-S1A :D

[lfh]

What about the following strategy:

1. Newbies are restricted to a dedicated "Hello, world" forum.
2. Newbies are requested to apply for a full membership in said forum.
3. The application must loosely follow a certain protocol (e.g. "the reasons I'd like to join / my first encounter with JBL / my favourite model / current collection / planned project / ...")
4. The community gives approval by means of a simple one-click action.
5. A certain number of OK:s is required to obtain membership.
6. The OK:s are weighted according to voter membership status: E.g. only one "moderator click" is needed or two ">100-post member clicks" or...

This would:

a. share the burden of screening new users
b. isolate potential XXX Viagra-style firsts post to a specific place
c. put reasonable demands on newcomers (also "money poor" ones)

Of course crook newbies could copy old applications, but doing this (in an non-obvious way) is probably already too much hassle for "drive by spammers". We as a community could also be careful: When in doubt, post a follow up question before clicking OK.

Just an idea. (I don't know how technically complicated this would be to implement, but I'd be glad to donate to help making it happen.)

Fredrik

[JBLRaiser]

All the replies have been tactical, not strategic...

The forum would not be a "non profit charity" . Someone will have to declare the income and most likely kick himself up into another tax bracket.

The treasurer is going to have fun. Unhappy members ...do they get refunds ? What are the new liabilities now that its "for profit" ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The mods are fighting spammers in an "old manual mode" . Darned near every site on the web has mail back verification. Cant be that hard ?

Whats to keep a spammer from paying the dues and then demanding a refund when his posts are deleted ? Lawsuits ? yes , even over a small fee. It happens.

You guys are opening up a whole can of worms here, that Don, NOT YOU, will have to deal with. Think out the ramifications before you leap.:blink:
we're all big boys and girls here. Write a user agreement and if it is breached, the offender is kicked. Simple as that. If legality is a big problem, you can always use www.legalzoom.com. No affiliation. Really...none. Also, a thought if we go the profit route,would be to take all profits after expenses and buy the finest honkin speakers that money can buy and do a drawing. This is just stream of consciousness stuff. Pick some or throw it all out. I can take it.

[SEAWOLF97]

What about the following strategy:......................................... ....

Fredrik


well thot out, IMHO

[JBLRaiser]

Quoted by Rolf:


Rolf's comment touches a nerve here. When I made my first posting back on 4/13/2005, no one responded to my question for nearly 3 months. And when I finally did get some responses, not all of them appeared to be friendly. So, as a newcomer, I was not sure what to make of this site. If I had been hit up for money every time I visited this site two years ago, then I would not be a paying member now. It takes time to get to know this site and to truly see its benefits. So, Rolf's point about, "the site will probably loose some people that should be here", is absolutely true. Personally, I would rather make donations rather then pay fees. But, if we do decide to go with some kind of annual fees or dues, then $10 to $25 a year sounds about right to me.

Baron030

for suggesting side by side L100's. Something about phase interference and a live environment reflecting everything, everywhere. I was crushed. Yet, this ain't no place for wusses. Only the strong survive.

[mech986]

:blink:
The other value added forums that I participate in have varying levels of membership ranging from free to lifetime. These different levels grant varying levels of privileges.

Free members can read posts as guests.
Active members (nominal annual fee/donation) involved can post and perform basic thread searches.
Lifers are granted full access to all site features and archives.

I just discovered LH recently as I embark upon accumulating components to build my dream system. First knock out of the box all
I see is that “0” posters are going to get deleted, hum I say to myself how do I avoid getting deleted, it’ll probably be six months or so before I am brave enough to stick my toe in this talent pool. Money, yeah that’s the ticket I’ll become a “paid-up” subscriber; they’ll never delete me then.

Oh wait money isn’t the answer, some of the regulars think this isn’t a financial issue (sorry that’s BS it costs money to do this stuff, at this level)

Yes this is my first post, I’m a contributing member, please moderate my post, limit my access, what ever we needed to keep this afloat at the quality that it is and don’t delete me out of convenience.

Presumptuous first post huh, I apologize in advance but this is a cool place, with cool things happening, and I just found it! I don’t want to lose it already for lack of trying.

mw


Hi MW,

Welcome to LH! Hope you have been enjoying the forum and that you'll keep posting. Great and thoughtful first post, you'll surely fit in with us here. Especially with a JBL DIY Project in mind!! :applaud: Don't be shy about startiing a thread on what your project thoughts may be, I'm sure they will continue to evolve.

Regards,

Bart

As for the current topic, I moderate the BBC LS3/5a Yahoo! newsgroup along with a deputy moderator. All memberships are screened initially by a short comment made by the prospective member. If that doesn't give us a good feeling about them, we then email back to them requesting a more detailed idea of why they want to be a member of our newsgroup and maybe some personal information about them.

This system has worked very well for the vast majority of new members. There are some who don't respond back to our request who seem like they may be legit but since its up to them, if we don't get a response in two week, we just automatically drop them. We figure if they don't want us bad enough to respond, cie la vie.

I will say that since one of my email addresses is tied into the membership request system for the newsgroup, I do receive a steady stream of spam aimed at that system. Thankfully, my ISP filters catch about 99% of it, and better it comes to me rather than our newsgroup.

That's another way to "moderate" the initial memberships and potentially ward off the spammers. I am also not opposed to a membership fee, donation, or use fee if needed. The wealth of information, discussion, friendly comraderie and BS'ing (we know who we are!) IS addictive and fun and well worth whatever is asked for it.

We should never get used to and expect everything should be free, IMHO. Then we start feeling like we are entitled to all of this when we know it takes a lot of work, effort, and time (and real money) from a dedicated bunch of enthusiasts, nee' professionals to keep this site running smoothly.

Hat's off to everyone on the site and for having decent, civil discussions.

Now anyone want to talk about how big my JBL's are compared to yours? :bs: :blah: :D :D

Regards,

Bart

[mech986]

Here's the reply we use:

Hello _______,

Thanks for your interest in the LS3/5A group. I'm sure you will find your
membership fruitful in understanding more about the history, design, and use
of the BBC LS3/5A and other types of BBC loudspeakers.

However, because your Yahoo! ID is empty, I'll need you to provide me with
more information on who you are, what your interests are regarding the
LS3/5A, and where you are located.

We are a moderated group and because of past problems with spammers, we must
do some pre-screening for prospective members and to protect our current
members.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,

__________
Yahoo! LS3/5A group deputy moderator

Of course, we can tailor the message to include most any kind of questions that we feel helps to include (or qualify?) a prospective member:

1. What was Jim Lansing's real last name?

2. Who developed the original Paragon?

3. What JBL speaker system uses the 2234H driver?

4. How much does the Everest II cost in Japanese Yen per pair?

5. What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? :)

or some such.

Regards,

Bart

[Harvey Gerst]

Of course, we can tailor the message to include most any kind of questions that we feel helps to include (or qualify?) a prospective member:

1. What was Jim Lansing's real last name? James Martini

2. Who developed the original Paragon? Col. Richard Ranger

3. What JBL speaker system uses the 2234H driver? Ever since JBL went to 4 digit numbers, I don't have a clue.

4. How much does the Everest II cost in Japanese Yen per pair? Doesn't that depend on how big a "yen" the Japanese person has to own this system?

5. What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? :)

There are NO unladen swallows - they each carry a load of guilt as to which of them is actually the fastest, and are their mothers now disappointed with them?

The European swallow has always had to be faster than the African Swallow, since the Peregrine Falcon (30 degree dive, measured at 168 mph) is also a native of Europe.
I think I flunked this test.:banghead:

[Fred Sanford]

I think I flunked this test.:banghead:

...maybe so, but I think you've typed the funniest post here in quite a while...thanks for that!

je

[mwaldron]

I'll keep it short until I can garner enough knowledge to pass the test. (Worried look, sweat drippig from brows)

mw

[lfh]

I think I flunked this test.:banghead:

OK, you'll be banned from the forum :p (It was a fun post, Harvey, but now back on topic.)


I think moderators and resident gurus sometimes are too generous with their time. Look for example at the rules at John Sayer's Recording Studio Design Forum:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231

Specifically it's not uncommon that forums have sticky threads serving as Q&D FAQ:s. To cite John Sayers:

"Review the REFERENCE area -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125

This is the closest thing we have to Frequenty Asked Questions on this resource at the moment. Many common questions are covered there, and it is required reading in terms of our being able to help you with your project."

Fredrik

[Earl K]

Hi All,

- I was actually thinking of a higher annual fee . Something more in the $40.00 to $50.00 neighbourhood .
- To mitigate this "sticker-shock" I was thinking that up to half of the annual fee could be rebated or discounted ( perhaps in the following years fees ) .

- Eligibility for discounts could be based on $10.00 rebates which would be a recognition for publishing information of merit .

- What is; Information of Merit ?

- Well, the truck & trade of this site is information about Lansing branded speakers .
- Therefore, IMO, information shedding new light about these devices would be awarded a "membership rebate" when first published .


- There are so many different types of valuable information that I really can't begin to list them all. The point here is that those individuals who participate here by publishing stuff the rest of us can use / should be recognized financially for their efforts.
- Voltage Drives, FR plots, Axial Response Plots, Impedance Plots of devices or Crossovers, ts parameters of Lansing speakers , / are all examples of information currency. Wood-working Tools and refinishing tips or methods are all good examples.

- If one thinks it has all "been done" then think again.
- For example; It seems that no ones knows the Le of the various Altec woofers ( it's a wide open field ). Who knows the Fs of the Altec 288-8K or the 902-8B ? Is the Altec 406-8Y an underhung coil or an overhung type and just what are its' ts specs.? What happens to the ts specs and FR plot of a JBL 2012H when 15 grams of aquaplas are added to it's cone ?

- Information on Lansing transducers or crossvers is still an extemely wide open field that still begs for new participants ( ie; don't wait for Giskard to spoon-feed it to you ) .

(i) Here's but one example of significant info that was largely ignored. It shouldn't remain so. It ought to garner the creator at least a discount on membership for one or mabe even two years. Guess who did this ?
http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2639&stc=1&d=1085619440

- Have we ever discussed these voltage drives ? No , not really / and that's a bit of a shame. There are some interesting things going on within these comparisons .

:)

[4313B]

- Information on Lansing transducers or croosvers is still an extemely wide open field that still begs for new participants ( ie; don't wait for Giskard to spoon-feed it to you ) .What are you talking about Earl?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Earl,

You raise some very interesting issues and I appreciate the time you spent on that post.

I think you are refering to a Newletter type publication.

I am not certain the visitors would regard anything here on the forums of sufficient importance in the overall scheme of things that they would want to pay for it. (see below).

In some instances some members have recovered costs by supporting the owner builder with their designs. That is a private below the line activity and has been going on here for as long as the forums are around.

However, the most sort after and perhaps user friendly data is in the Library and in the reference forum areas.

Secondly, the specific examples you quoted are what a really technically experienced person would be concerned with and aware of. They would no doubt have the means to measure and determine that data. The static data in itself is fairly useless information unless one has the technical skill, test equipment and modelling tools to plug in the data do something with it. All the JBL T/L data on vintage drivers is readily available from jblpro.com.

If that sort of data is not available within the ranks of the Altec site at this stage it suggests there is little call for it or they are not so technically inclined.

Without running a pole the information sort is here is of a lot more general nature. Where someone wants to engage in serious data mining and analysis it best done on a buddy pm basis. There is just too much noise, thread jacking and off topic posting for a sensible approach.

When it comes to specifics the impression I get is that there's caveat over or desire to control publishing revised or new JBL designs and hard data. In some ways I can understand that because without some control, chaos and confusion reign over what are "valid designs" and that would outweigh the benefits. The downside is there is a risk supply not meeting demand and having too many eggs on one basket.

[Earl K]

What are you talking about Earl?

- Creating a credit system that recognizes the publishing of useful information .
- This system of credits would be used to offset membership fees .


:)

[glen]

It seems that most of the folks pushing for fees are really looking for a way to control behavior of visitors to this site. Member ship fees would be a very blunt instrument for addressing specific concerns, like trying to do an appendectomy with a hatchet the results might not be all that people hoped for.

I think it would be better to focus on the particular problems that people have and try to address them in a more precise manner.

[Earl K]

Without running a pole the information sort is here is of a lot more general nature. Where someone wants to engage in serious data mining and analysis it best done on a buddy pm basis. There is just too much noise, thread jacking and off topic posting for a sensible approach.

- The status quo is well,,, somewhat stagnant. My thoughts are all directed at somewhat rejuvinating that situation .

- Charging a membership fee is certainly a shakeup .
- Formally recognizing the value of information published by the membership is still another shakeup.
- This is all intended to put a bit more focus, back into individual R & D efforts .

- In my quite broad defination of "merit" , something as straightforward as TiDomes' initial publishing of the pics he snapped of the 70x series transducers ( from his L7s ) would warrant a credit towards his annual membership fees .
- FWIW; To date no one has measured and published the ts parameters for these transducers .

- If there was no spamming to take care of /if mediating public feuds was at a low enough ebb / then I'd like to see the moderators time better spent researching the "merit" of newly published info .
- Of course the "publisher" would need to identify & submit the info for appraisal for any possible credit .



:)

[SEAWOLF97]

- Creating a credit system that recognizes the publishing of useful information .
- This system of credits would be used to offset membership fees .


:)

Earl

I understand that you are a tech guru , but I dont understand your push for fees ? I dont think you are the site owner, mod or admin...so why are you shoving this at the membership ? what is your angle ?

G has already said it wont happen ..I have not seen any mod, admin nor owner push this...why you ?

[Earl K]

Earl

I understand that you are a tech guru , but I dont understand your push for fees ? I dont think you are the site owner, mod or admin...so why are you shoving this at the membership ? what is your angle ?

G has already said it wont happen ..I have not seen any mod, admin nor owner push this...why you ?

- Perhaps it's a spring thing .
- I'm running these ideas up the flagpole to see what shakes-out.
- Additionally, I also want those in charge to know that they're not alone in their concern for the health of this site .
- Obviously, they can and will , take or leave any change that I might suggest .

:)

[4313B]

- FWIW; To date no one has measured and published the ts parameters for these transducers .Has there been a need to do so?

[JBL 4645]

Ideas are community property free access to information it’s a matter of principle.

Start charge around here and members will be driven away because there won’t be any more free discussion to go around here anymore.

[4313B]

One problem that has manifested with that free information is that certain forum members have used that information to their advantage. They have blogged the site with a personal agenda that is becoming a concern to more and more people. At first it was kind of cute and kind of flattering. Now it's becoming a problem.

One person in particular recently joined another website and has a 7.6 post per day statistic. That is a pretty phenominal noise ratio coming right out of the gate. Here he has dropped to a 6.7 post per day statistic and again, that's a pretty staggering noise ratio considering the source. I don't think there is a single thread this person hasn't felt "qualified" to jump into. This person isn't anyone in particular. He is just a typical speaker hobbyist evidently with a whole ton of stuff to post, a boat load of free time, a free medium in which to do it and he has taken advantage of that medium.

I don't think there is a day that goes by anymore that someone doesn't have something negative to say about it. It's sad. We do feel bad, but geez, how long can this possibly go on? These guys really, truly need to get their own websites to blog their never ending projects on. That way people can visit them if they want instead of having to slog through them endlessly here.

[Don C]

Hi All,

(i) Here's but one example of significant info that was largely ignored. It shouldn't remain so. It ought to garner the creator at least a discount on membership for one or mabe even two years. Guess who did this ?

Not the best selection, because I happen to know that the member who originally posted that chart doesn't think that we should start charging for access.
I also don't think that Don M really needs these suggestions. I've certainly noticed the decrease in the signal to noise ratio in the forums, but the site is still great overall. I'm still able to enjoy it as it stands. If the forum is bugging you guys, go browse the library for a while, that works for me.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I agree with Giskard in some respects.

Perhaps there needs to be a blog rule. I posted recently that blogs were in fact the fastest growing aspect of free public internet space. What most don't know is their own providers almost certainly have free blog facilities. Perhaps its all too much work to do so.

[Robh3606]

Hello Earl

This is a hobby site. Some people have had some success using PM's to make it more than that, but those that did had the talent to do so. They were also very free and giving and shared that information with the entire membership by posting much of it on the forums. Many others have benefited by the simple fact that they could search the threads to mine the gold that has been left by many members over the past 4 years. The idea of rating a persons Membership Fee based on their contribution seems odd to me. How do you determine what merits a real contribution to the forum?? Did someone else say the same thing 2 years ago?? Do they get a discount because they said it first and does the new guy loose his??

I am here to share this hobby with like minded people. That's really about all that motivates me. I am sure I am not alone. I really don't want to be a mediator in determining if another members post has technical merit or not. I have been doing this for several years and have a bit of experience under my belt. There are many times we see the same topics that when seen by a new member may be a real eye opener. The senior members here will be like "Oh that again" to the same post. How relevant and important a post is can only be determined by the reader and if it helps them or not. I don't feel qualified to make that determination for other members. It's just too personal and the right content at the right time dependant.

Rob:)

[Robh3606]

Perhaps there needs to be a blog rule.

Hello Ian

The Stereophile show is in 3 weeks any chance you can come on over?? I have the pubs all mapped out.
:cheers:

I have been thinking along the same lines. At least some clarification as to what a blog is in the context of the site. Maybe limit the number of posts or define a project thread with a scope as an example. At least that way we won't end up with a rambling thread that simply takes on a live of it's own.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

I have been thinking along the same lines. At least some clarification as to what a blog is in the context of the site. Maybe limit the number of posts or define a project thread with a scope as an example. At least that way we won't end up with a rambling thread that simply takes on a live of it's own.If you're thinking about the Valencia thread, Rob, (now at 18,000 views and 800 posts comprising 54 pages, for those with interest in the numbers,) bear in mind that it has brought together members from Alaska, California, Arizona, Colorado, Arkansas, New York, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Virgina, plus another half-dozen from another site, as serious participants in an unprecedented, open-source, pan-forum, interactive collaboration focused upon investigating and resolving specific issues associated with a vintage Lansing product.

It's not scattered all over the forum anymore, as the subject matter previously was, but in a single thread, easily ignored by anyone not interested, and easily researched by those who are. I believe it to be valuable not only for the specific content and findings, but also for its illustrating the scope and complexity of process associated with answering what might, on the face of it, appear to be a simple question: "Shall I add a tweeter to my Altec Valencias?"

If you or others are receiving PMs regarding that considerable effort, and it's inappropriateness on the forum, I'd sure like to know what the complaint is.... :dont-know

[glen]

First of all I don't want to particularly single out Giskard, but as usual, he has succinctly stated a couple of concerns that have been voiced by many other members that I would like to explore in more depth, and add my two cents as well.

One problem that has manifested with that free information is that certain forum members have used that information to their advantage.
I think we all hope to use the information here to our advantage in one way or another, education, entertainment etc. Some object when people get some monetary advantage by exploiting the information on this site.
But often the compaints seem so vague I can't tell what particular sin has been committed, who has been hurt and how we might prevent future damages.


. Now it's becoming a problem. One person in particular recently joined another website and has a 7.6 post per day statistic. That is a pretty phenominal noise ratio . . . . to slog through them endlessly here.
We all have different definitions of what is noise and what is information, but if you have determined that this person has nothing to say that you want to hear why don't you put his name on your "Ignore" List. Do you take full advantage of the tools that already exist? Do we need more powerful tools to filter out posts according to other criteria: Don't show posts from members with fewer than 50 posts. Don't show posts containing the words "how much" or "worth".

I would much rather keep an open door to the forum for all kinds of input and at the same time allow members to filter their view of the threads to their own tastes.

Maybe there should "Dumb Questions" and "What Are These Worth" Forums that can be made a kind of magnet to keep more "worthy" forums cleaner.

Responding to posts or persons you dislike with objections, complaints and attacks also raises the noise level.
The most discouraging response is NO response.

[4313B]

Perhaps its all too much work to do so.Our feeling is that given the amount of free time they have to fill several forum sites up with what they consider to be important they have more than enough time to develop their own site. Basically, the free ride has become real noticable and so has the irritation factor.

Responding to posts or persons you dislike with objections, complaints and attacks also raises the noise level.
The most discouraging response is NO response.Thanks Glen. You're correct in that objections, complaints and attacks raise the noise level and have zero effect on some individuals. We are seeing that borne out yet again with several "fueds" currently going on. I think Ian and Robh3606 hit it on the head, we need to look at limiting certain members daily post allotment. We also need to look at moving a couple people to their own personal websites where they can flourish. The consensus is, if the dominating bloggers were people who were thoroughly and intimately involved with Lansing Heritage, who posessed a rich history, a reasonable depth and breadth of experience, then it wouldn't even be an issue. Instead what we have are a few hobbyist people who have virtually nothing better to do with their day than crank out, for example, 14.3 posts per day. There are a ton of forums out there better suited for that kind of activity and a personal website could also be a real positive in their lives. Posting here is just too easy and some people can't get off the pipe. We'll have a better handle on it by the end of the weekend.

And you are right in that I was vague.

[Ian Mackenzie]

""What we are thinking about is a trend that began in the summer of 2004 and has snowballed. It isn't any one thread in particular anymore. :rotfl:""

I recall the shift well when I returned from the Sates:).

[porschedpm]

.....Instead what we have are a few hobbyist people who have virtually nothing better to do with their day than crank out, for example, 14.3 posts per day. There are a ton of forums out there better suited for that kind of activity and a personal website could also be a real positive in their lives. Posting here is just too easy and some people can't get off the pipe....

Giskard, you bring up an issue that's increasingly become a pet peeve of mine also. Maybe it's just me, but my perception is that over the last year and a half or so, the forum has experienced a significant growth in postings from members whose primary goal seems to be only to build the number of posts showing below their avatar. Apparently their belief is that the more posts they show, the more stature or credibility they have in the LH community. Most of it is just spewage though :barf: and contributes nothing. But as long as LH is an open forum, and as long as the posts fall within the guidelines, I don't think we can prevent these mindless, nonsense posts. I don't think charging a membership fee will solve this either.

And now I have one more post to add to my counter.

[4313B]

Maybe it's just me, but my perception is that over the last year and a half or so, the forum has experienced a significant growth in postings from members whose primary goal seems to be only to build the number of posts showing below their avatar.

That is a growing perception for alot of people. Has been for awhile now.

Apparently their belief is that the more posts they show, the more stature or credibility they have in the LH community.

In some cases yes, and one of them was banned so he could move to another forum and start the exact same process there. His desire for credibility was insatiable, and frankly, baseless. But in other cases it appears to be an addiction as opposed to anything overtly malicious. I could be wrong though. The deletion of OT is being viewed as an extremely good thing after just a few days of closure. It's kind of amazing and the people we wanted to make happy are happy. That was a very real problem and to think I was actually coming around to being "ok" with it after fighting for its demise for so long!

But as long as LH is an open forum, and as long as the posts fall within the guidelines, I don't think we can prevent these mindless, nonsense posts.

Up to and including today that is correct.

I don't think charging a membership fee will solve this either.

The only way I can see that would ever be seriously considered is if it was separated off and the ramifications of that have been thought out. I don't see it happening. I think what we are looking at is another set of experimental processes being put into effect. If they work great, if they don't oh well, back to the drawing board.

There is another very real possibility. Jump ship and gladly hand it all over to the GP.

[4313B]

This sort of interaction reminds me of the sort of posts we'd see more often than not in times gone by.

I 'd like to think that while well meaning a lot of what has been said here is unnecessary and should be deleted.

As you rightfully mentioned earlier most if not all of us are here because we like helping people out. We enjoy it.

Ian:)

[Earl K]

The idea of rating a persons Membership Fee based on their contribution seems odd to me. How do you determine what merits a real contribution to the forum?? Did someone else say the same thing 2 years ago?? Do they get a discount because they said it first and does the new guy loose his?? ,,,,, snip

- Yea, I can see how a credit system that rates posts where the credit is ultimately based on a question of the worthiness of this new content / would become ungainly & tedious for those given that task .
- I guess my suggestion, merits an "F" for insight & practicallity / though hopefully an "E" for effort :p

;)

And yes, I'm also finished with this thought . :)

[4313B]

That would be your take on the situation and you could be wrong in your assessment.

If you're thinking about the Valencia thread, Rob, (now at 18,000 views and 800 posts comprising 54 pages, for those with interest in the numbers,) bear in mind that it has brought together members from Alaska, California, Arizona, Colorado, Arkansas, New York, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Virgina, plus another half-dozen from another site, as serious participants in an unprecedented, open-source, pan-forum, interactive collaboration focused upon investigating and resolving specific issues associated with a vintage Lansing product. Oh wow! My response is:
A.) <deleted>
B.) <deleted>
C.) <deleted>
But my response doesn't matter right now. We are taking this issue offline and solutions will come after the administrators and moderators review them.

[Robh3606]

If you're thinking about the Valencia thread, Rob, (now at 18,000 views and 800 posts comprising 54 pages, for those with interest in the numbers,) bear in mind that it has brought together members from Alaska, California, Arizona, Colorado, Arkansas, New York, Minnesota, Kentucky, and Virgina, plus another half-dozen from another site, as serious participants in an unprecedented, open-source, pan-forum, interactive collaboration focused upon investigating and resolving specific issues associated with a vintage Lansing product.


Hello Zilch

The Valencia thread is a half a dozen guys having fun and enjoying the hobby. It’s fine for the moments in time but when it’s done how do you get the useful information out of it without slogging through the whole thread?? Do an index like the QD 4430 thread???

That would work but how about trying to keep it shorter more on topic and concise from the get go???

I was trying to come up with a definition of Bloging that would work on the site. All DIY threads are subject to what can be abrupt changes in direction and content depending on what works. You could start one with a defined driver set and end up with a different set at the end. That’s just the nature of the beast.

One way to keep them more concise is not to post the day by day details of the whole process. We don’t need a daily diary of the project.

Daily posting like that for all intents and purposes is a blog. Running the same thread on 2 forums with links back to here??? Daily updates??? All the links to you own posts between the Forums???

When you post like that you have the usual daily comments and before you know it , it’s a 200 post thread with 75% dead content. What's important is what works. Can we just keep the threads more concise. If it takes a day or a couple of days to work something out we don’t need to see every stage of the work up to the solution on a daily basis. If you feel it’s important to post the "How you got there", do it in a single post with the solution. That way we end up with shorter easier to read and search threads.

You are saying that it's all in one thread??? More like 2 seperate threads on 2 seperate forums. Are you going to add a summary there as well or link to the summary here when your done???



Rob:)

[Audiobeer]

There is a book out there by Jack Handy.....It's called "Deep Thoughts" and has been translated throughout the world. It covers conspiracy theories, Deja Vu, Questions concerning the "feeling of Inadequacies after the Post". It's a good read for all of us. It changed my life. I went from a 4.7 to a 1.3 post per day average and found that I was able to get things done in my life I have never been able to do before like get that ring around the toilet, get the lint out of the dryer hose and hose down those huge Bull dog turds in my back yard.......I mean that dog knows how to serve a loaf. Anyway thanks to Don for the boards!
:applaud:

[Zilch]

Hello Zilch

The Valencia thread is a half a dozen guys having fun and enjoying the hobby. It’s fine for the moments in time but when it’s done how do you get the useful information out of it without slogging through the whole thread?? Do an index like the QD 4430 thread???I believe so, yes, but in a different format than I used there, perhaps, more subject-oriented.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=159946&postcount=9

Thank you for your analysis of this forum issue. An open-source collaboration such as this is certainly fun for the engaged participants, but clearly less so for casual observers. I think it's valid activity here: hobbyists getting together to work as a group toward a defined objective. You said it yourself, actually:


I am here to share this hobby with like minded people. That's really about all that motivates me. I am sure I am not alone.

Before I'd participate in another such endeavor, tho, I think I'd have the presence of mind to formally petition for a slot in "Project Forums." There, it could be accomplished without impacting the main forums in any way. Despite the title: "Specific Projects Undertaken by Lansing Heritage Members," it has not previously been used for this individualized a purpose, so it's new territory I'm exploring here.

[Still thinking this through, obviously.... :hmm: ]

[4313B]

You've kind of poisoned the well at this point Zilch... sorry. :(

I'd recommend following Rob's guidelines instead of arguing the point further. They're super simple solutions.

I'm also sure there is a huge spot on AK that could accomodate your various DIY projects. The audience is much larger and more diverse so you can reach out to more people needing your help or guidance. :)

Just a thought of course. :hmm:

[Zilch]

You've kind of poisoned the well at this point Zilch... sorry. :(

I'd recommend following Rob's guidelines instead of arguing the point further. They're super simple sulotions.

I'm also sure there is a huge spot on AK that could accomodate your various DIY projects. The audience is much larger and more diverse so you can reach out to more people needing your help or guidance. :)

Just a thought of course. :hmm:
________
He is so delusional, so full of himself, he'd "fix" Everest II if he could get his hands on one. Fortunately that is completely out of his grasp... at least for now. I'm sure someday we will all have to suffer through a blog of him hacking one up and making it "right" in lurid detail
Hmmm. Don't know that I'm "arguing" anything, actually.... :dont-know

[Earl K]

- The administration could always impose a maximum post count allowed within a thread before it gets closed & locked down . This "known" expirary notice will offer the posters a bit of system discipline since they will know that a deadline looms .

- The admin could also disallow a continuation of the subject ( by the same group ) until they write & post a reasonable index/summary to the present thread ( especially useful if it meanders some ) .

- I see the usefulness of these points as a fewfold ;

(i) It entails a stopping to catch ones collective breath . This in itself allows the participants to divert their attention elsewhere . Maybe good , maybe bad .

(ii) An index needs an organization of posted thoughts to date. The very act of creating this index requires pondering what has been said ( and requires a bit of offline activity to accomplish something comprehensive )

(iii) Some communication may need to be taken offline to jam things into a specific post count . This should mean that OT posts will be unwelcome distractions ( at least in the last 50 posts ) and ought to result in more of them being flagged and deleted by the moderators .

( My time is kind of pooched till Friday / though / I'll endeavor to check in on this subject to see if there's any interest in developing the "limitation" concept )

:)

[4313B]

Hmmm. Don't know that I'm "arguing" anything, actually.... :dont-knowNow here we have a classic example of a definite difference of perception. I did not take post 90 as a query for answers at all so therefore view posts 94, 95, and 96 as superfluous.

[boputnam]

- The administration could always impose a maximum post count allowed within a thread before it gets closed & locked down . This "known" expirary notice will offer the posters a bit of system discipline since they will know that a deadline looms .

(i) It entails a stopping to catch ones collective breath . This in itself allows the participants to divert their attention elsewhere . Maybe good , maybe bad .We've talked about this - it cannot work.

You are presuming posters would judge the merits / usefulness of their input before posting. No-way. And, no-way everyone would judge things sanely or evenly.

Lastly, if the door is closing, many would rush-in to be heard before they cannot, hastening the closure.

Second lastly, this would merely engender (and require...) duplicate threads and worsen the already less-than-ideal continuity.

It is what it is - free form, often streams of (un)consciousness and gems of real knowledge and experience. It's like panning for gold - it takes discipline and diligence to sift through all the dirt...

[jackgiff]

The Valencia thread is a half a dozen guys having fun and enjoying the hobby. It’s fine for the moments in time but when it’s done how do you get the useful information out of it without slogging through the whole thread?? Do an index like the QD 4430 thread???
...
You are saying that it's all in one thread??? More like 2 seperate threads on 2 seperate forums. Are you going to add a summary there as well or link to the summary here when your done???



Rob:)



Now here we have a classic example of a definite difference of perception. I did not take post 90 as a query for answers at all so therefore view posts 94, 95, and 96 as superfluous.I read post 90, by Robh3606, as a query looking for answers. And Zilch answered the query in post 94. If post 94, 95, and 96 are superflous, why did you make post 95? What is the real burr under your blanket?

If the LH forum was to be limited to the people who have such deep knowledge of the audio industry, the unwashed and unclean should have been eliminated from the start. But once you allow us in, the forum becomes what it is. I wonder if Don will allow the cleansing you are discussing. I sure hope not!

Jack Gifford

[4313B]

I read post 90, by Robh3606, as a query looking for answers.Well, I had the advantage of a phone call containing additional data. :dont-know
What is the real burr under your blanket?A coprophagous fraud? But that really doesn't matter right now.
But once you allow us in, the forum becomes what it is.We have, and are, discussing that very fact right this moment.
I wonder if Don will allow the cleansing you are discussing. I sure hope not!What cleansing? Suggestions were made.

*************************************************

In any case, this wraps it up:


It is what it is - free form, often streams of (un)consciousness and gems of real knowledge and experience. It's like panning for gold - it takes discipline and diligence to sift through all the dirt...


I'll know more by midnight Sunday.

The forum as it currently stands is open. Put into it what you want, take away from it what you want. There is no mechanism in place to curtail spamming or blogging by members who simply cannot help themselves. It is the reader's responsibility to determine the veracity of any information, that burden does not belong to the author or the website, etc., etc., etc.

[Earl K]

We've talked about this - it cannot work.

I disagree ,

- I'd suggest simply trying it . Set the post count high, to say 500 and see what happens.

- You guys have tried structural changes before and then tweaked them later as the need arose.


:)

[boputnam]

I disagree ,

- I'd suggest simply trying it . Set the post count high, to say 500 and see what happens. Hell, I'd choose 99 - we'd already be done with this thread... ;)

[4313B]

Hell, I'd choose 99 - we'd already be done with this thread... ;)Geez! I was thinking ten...
That could be a good project for someone. Figure out the average number of posts before a thread thoroughly goes to hell in a hand basket and that's the number we are looking for.

[boputnam]

Geez! I was thinking ten...OK.

10 it is...

[kingjames]

I think this thread would have been a lot shorter had it taken the PM route for the individuals involved because now we are all wondering exactly what the hell is going on.

[scott fitlin]

"coprophagous" Now theres a $50.00 word!

Got your Merriam Webster out, do ya?

:rotfl:

[4313B]

now we are all wondering exactly what the hell is going on.Seriously? Just forum spamming and increasing post count. Nothing much else.

Now theres a $50.00 word!

Got your Merriam Webster out, do ya?

:rotfl:I actually learned it here Scott! :yes:
It wasn't in any spelling bee I was ever a part of.

[Thom]

I've been away to long to understand the problem you are attempting to fix although I can speak from experience about how easy it is to get distracted from donating. What has gone on that every body wants to be exclusionary all of a sudden? Also is it now assumed that within the current group lays all there is to know about JBL speakers and history? I haven't been around, so maybe there really ts a problem that needs this drastic of a change but I really think going from free to paid membership or any other exclusionary rule is a major change, will change the fell of this thing and probably deprive some of us who don't quite know everything yet of some valuable info. Yes it will deprive us of tons of nonsense also. Some of these posts look like there is more than just a bit of anger behind them. I read the whole thread but I didn't catch the event that started all of this rolling. Would like to know more. Have missed being here but have been working 60 to 75 hrs and it hasn't been practical.

[4313B]

I've been away to long to understand the problem you are attempting to fixWeening off the now defunct OT forum...
It got canned so we started a half dozen new threads in this Feedback Forum to compensate.

I read the whole threadOh geez! :barf: I never do that unless Don McRitchie starts the thread. Skim dude, speed read.

[scott fitlin]

I actually learned it here Scott! :yes:
It wasn't in any spelling bee I was ever a part of.Excellent. :thmbsup:

And, in actuality, it does describe quite well, much of what goes on here.

Carry on, mate!

[hjames]

What "75% off-topic threads of 200 posts" need are judicious editing. Someone who would go through the thread and delete the extraneous posts, edit a few others to maintain continuity, and still keep the main concept prevalent in the thread. Not just a moderator, but a topic editor -
knowledgable about the subject, no ax to grind, yet the ability to steer a thread back on topic and trim the chaff. Maybe a second set of mods with lesser powers - dedicated to specific areas of the site.

Just the way I see it - maybe not what's wanted - but I'm not sure how else to approach it




Hello Zilch

The Valencia thread is a half a dozen guys having fun and enjoying the hobby. It’s fine for the moments in time but when it’s done how do you get the useful information out of it without slogging through the whole thread?? Do an index like the QD 4430 thread???

That would work but how about trying to keep it shorter more on topic and concise from the get go???

I was trying to come up with a definition of Bloging that would work on the site. All DIY threads are subject to what can be abrupt changes in direction and content depending on what works. You could start one with a defined driver set and end up with a different set at the end. That’s just the nature of the beast.

One way to keep them more concise is not to post the day by day details of the whole process. We don’t need a daily diary of the project.

Daily posting like that for all intents and purposes is a blog. Running the same thread on 2 forums with links back to here??? Daily updates??? All the links to you own posts between the Forums???

When you post like that you have the usual daily comments and before you know it , it’s a 200 post thread with 75% dead content. What's important is what works. Can we just keep the threads more concise. If it takes a day or a couple of days to work something out we don’t need to see every stage of the work up to the solution on a daily basis. If you feel it’s important to post the "How you got there", do it in a single post with the solution. That way we end up with shorter easier to read and search threads.

You are saying that it's all in one thread??? More like 2 seperate threads on 2 seperate forums. Are you going to add a summary there as well or link to the summary here when your done???



Rob:)

[Zilch]

I actually learned it here Scott! :yes:
It wasn't in any spelling bee I was ever a part of.


:D

[4313B]

:D

You're a good egg Zilch.
You most assuredly piss me the hell off, and you know it; And perhaps like it.
A wee bit eccentric and decidely weird but whatever.

Now that that's out of the way have a nice evening. :cheers:

[boputnam]

...have a nice evening. :cheers:What a great place to meet new friends!! :wave:

[Zilch]

:cheers:

[sourceoneaudio]

Now theres a $50.00 word!

Got your Merriam Webster out, do ya?

:rotfl:

On Topic: I could not resist.

Main Entry: co·proph·a·gous http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?coprop01.wav=coprophagous'))
Pronunciation: k&-'prä-f&-g&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek koprophagos, from kopr- + -phagos -phagous
: feeding on dung
- co·proph·a·gy

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/images/dot.gifcoprophagy (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9000701/coprophagy)
eating of dung, or feces, considered abnormal among human beings but apparently instinctive among certain members of the order Lagomorpha (rabbits and hares) and in at least one leaf-eating primate ..


J/S-S1A :D You guys kill me!!!!!!!!!

[sourceoneaudio]

What a great place to meet new friends!! :wave:

O.T.
The question is, how much fun would we all have meeting in person? :blink:

Jeff
J/S-S1A :p

[scott fitlin]

On Topic: I could not resist.

Main Entry: co·proph·a·gous http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?coprop01.wav=coprophagous'))
Pronunciation: k&-'prä-f&-g&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek koprophagos, from kopr- + -phagos -phagous
: feeding on dung
- co·proph·a·gy

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/images/dot.gifcoprophagy (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9000701/coprophagy)
eating of dung, or feces, considered abnormal among human beings but apparently instinctive among certain members of the order Lagomorpha (rabbits and hares) and in at least one leaf-eating primate ..


J/S-S1A :D You guys kill me!!!!!!!!!Ah, gotta love Google!

:applaud:

[sourceoneaudio]

Ah, gotta love Google!

:applaud:



Well it was not in the Webster, and the thing that I'm most curious about is what kind of person keeps that word in the back of their mind waiting for a use?????????? :blink:

No offense...........>


Jeff
J/S-S1A

[trueview]

On Topic: I could not resist.

Main Entry: co·proph·a·gous http://m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?coprop01.wav=coprophagous'))
Pronunciation: k&-'prä-f&-g&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek koprophagos, from kopr- + -phagos -phagous
: feeding on dung
- co·proph·a·gy

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/images/dot.gifcoprophagy (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9000701/coprophagy)
eating of dung, or feces, considered abnormal among human beings but apparently instinctive among certain members of the order Lagomorpha (rabbits and hares) and in at least one leaf-eating primate ..

I learn something new everyday

[edgewound]

O.T.
The question is, how much fun would we all have meeting in person? :blink:

Jeff
J/S-S1A :p

Some of us have, but....

The National Guard is already spread too thin to mediate the LHS masses.

[4313B]

the thing that I'm most curious about is what kind of person keeps that word in the back of their mind waiting for a use??????????:dont-know Start looking at various signatures I guess.

[Thom]

I really liked the OT thread. It was sort of like the bar for a far flung group. I survived without the forum totally but I don't think that is the point. If it hadn't been so long since I've posted I might have thought it was on my account. Imagine thing I was important enough. If this wasn't an Internet thing I'm sure that at least some would discuss other topics (probably still do). I'm not in a position to do any steering so I'll just try to watch enough to have some idea what's going (that's a concept, have some idea what's going on) still I'm curious about this need to be exclusionary.

[kingjames]

Well it was not in the Webster, and the thing that I'm most curious about is what kind of person keeps that word in the back of their mind waiting for a use?????????? :blink:

No offense...........>


Jeff
J/S-S1A

Source, I think we all have words like that in the back of our heads but in most cases they stay their for fear of mispelling them.In Giskard's case I would have not used that word for two reasons. 1. I had no idea what it meant and 2.Even if I did I would have never spelled it correctly.;)

[trueview]

instead of a monthly fee...how bout a fee per post...that would cut down the crap in a hurry

[scott fitlin]

Source, I think we all have words like that in the back of our heads but in most cases they stay their for fear of mispelling them.In Giskard's case I would have not used that word for two reasons. 1. I had no idea what it meant and 2.Even if I did I would have never spelled it correctly.;)We all have fancy words that mean the same things as simple english in our heads. My mom happened to be here earlier, I asked her what the word meant, she knew it right off the top of her head. Old time scrabble player, and once a school teacher with a masters degree.

Truthfully, that word, coprophageous, happens to be an accurate description of some of the things here. People feeding off the posts, like, well, flies feeding on _____!

There are tons of fancy words to say things without being overtly profane.

Heres one > Masticate! How many forum members masticate? Any of you? Surely some of us do! I bet we all do.

:)

[opimax]

Let me chew on that one for a while, if you are sloppy does it require a tissue? :D

Mark

How much would i have to pay to answer this question? (per post fee)

[hjames]

We all have fancy words that mean the same things as simple english in our heads. My mom happened to be here earlier, I asked her what the word meant, she knew it right off the top of her head. Old time scrabble player, and once a school teacher with a masters degree.

Truthfully, that word, coprophageous, happens to be an accurate description of some of the things here. People feeding off the posts, like, well, flies feeding on _____!

There are tons of fancy words to say things without being overtly profane.

Heres one > Masticate! How many forum members masticate? Any of you? Surely some of us do! I bet we all do.

:)

You are a dirty dirty man - now go brush and floss :applaud:

[scott fitlin]

Let me chew on that one for a while, if you are sloppy does it require a tissue? :D

Mark

How much would i have to pay to answer this question? (per post fee)LOL, so now that we know you DO masticate, let me ask you this, do you swallow?

:D

[kingjames]

LOL, so now that we know you DO masticate, let me ask you this, do you swallow?

:D
Only what I masticate,(food that is);)

[scott fitlin]

I would think it's better to masticate first, then swallow! Thats the proper way.

:D

[opimax]

I swallow like a billion times a day, most things that i enjoy or semi-involuntary, things that are in my mouth that i have little control over and mostly manufactured by MY body.There are many places spitting is illegal :barf:


Why do you ask? :blink:

Mark

I am trying feverishly to come up w/something on topic and surprisingly I am at a loss for words...more fish oil pills, no thats for memory...

[boputnam]

...she knew it right off the top of her head...It was guessable for me. The word "coprolite" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite) came to mind - it's not uncommon in my field (pun occurred but unintended)...

[scott fitlin]

The word "coprolite" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite) came to mind - it's not uncommon in my field (pun occurred but unintended)...So, I guess its fair to say that in your field, one has to watch their step?

:D

[opimax]

didn't Hans Solo get some of that ?

Ok I am done tonight!!

Mark

[hjames]

It was guessable for me. The word "coprolite" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite) came to mind - it's not uncommon in my field (pun occurred but unintended)...

didn't Hans Solo get some of that ?

Naw, you are thinking of "The Corbomite Maneuver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corbomite_Maneuver)" and it was James Tiberius Kirk, not Hans Solo

[opimax]

Thanks HJ, it was late and 1st thought it was Trek and not Wars but somehow I was thinking when Solo was frozen and Chewy grunting away...always go with your 1st guess :o:

Mark

[pasadena]

Hi All,

There's always a notion that money can solve all problems but with a bit of careful thinking this forum CAN be preserved in it's current state while at the same time implementing some simple rules short term to address issue that have been raised. This will then give you time to think up a better strategy.

Looking at registration dates of members, I think I can say I started out early on in the piece but if you look at my thread count, I may not have such a big counter that many others may have. Most of members with high counts were accrued over a long period time and you can see those members have contributed a substantial amount of time and information to this forum that is invaluable to us all.

There are others whose counts are not so high and maybe that's because we're busy working, pre-occupied with other ventures but we drop in where we can to discuss, catch up and contribute what we can into this forum.

I, for instance, joined up in 2003 and then the following year I had my car accident and spent the next 3 years sorting out my court case and my life. So, I haven't been able to contribute as much I would have wanted to but we all have our reasons whether we post a lot or little each day/month/year. Yielding the finger unnecessarily is bad enough, being judgmental can be devastating.

We can clearly see which members are here to listen and to contribute and those that are merely fly by's making a nuisance of themselves or here to extract some info to make a quick buck and we never see them again.

If we are here to protect some of the vested interest in this forum then you have to start looking at the top of the tree, the root of cause for the infiltration of unwanted members, spammers, fly by's, whatever you may call it.

1. Google – Information is free. The world is a repository of information at our fingertips. Anything we want you will find. If you dig deep enough, we can find personal information about our next door neighbour. BUT, with a bit of careful planning we can avoid all this heartache.

If you google anything to do with JBL, it will mostly likely lead us to this site AND into the heart of this forum. Information that may have been lost 6 months prior is still out there cached on google servers around the world. I’ve been able to recover pages missing from a website through cached pages on google.

If you want to halt people coming in from Google, you may need to implement in short terms what us I.T people call, is a firewall….or put simply a door before you enter. In this forum’s case, a username and password.......easy. You don’t want the door to be completely closed as the aim is not to deter people but to showcase this forum and attract JBL wannabe enthusiasts. Any information that pops up in google should be information that was retrieved from the general unprotected areas only. If there are google links to protected areas, that person will be greeted with a username and password. I know that Google will still display part information from a protected section but to get further information you have to register/login.

If you have an eager scammer or seller that wants to hock a JBL system on e-bay and wants to get the best price for it, they’re gonna come here. If we can deter them at the door, they are unlikely to proceed any further. More often than not, you will get the persistent person(s) who will try their luck but once they find out that they have to serve out a number of waiting periods and conditions, 99.9% will give up. The true person will be happy to serve out their waiting period and join the great JBL society we have going here.

2. Reward System – If we really want to protect our information, I think we need to restrict access to Technical Help and Marketplace discussion rooms. Access can be gained by being rewarded for your contribution to this forum over time. Much like joining a Health Fund. Once a person joins, they must serve a waiting period before gaining access to more privileges. Some ideas as follows:

New Members must serve a waiting period of 30 days before being given access to Technical help. In this time they must participate in the general forum areas to show their worth. If within the 30 days they have joined and that they have not posted or logged on once, their membership will be cancelled and they will have to re-join and serve out their waiting period again. This is just a one off that applies in the first 30 days. This would definitely sort out time wasters.
Market place – To gain access to this area, members must serve at least 30 days AND they must also have posted at least 10 or maybe 20 times (these posts must be moderated to check for mindless banter). The minimum post is implemented on some B&W forums I have registered with but still allows you access to this area, which we’re trying to avoid. All outsiders are concerned about is gaining access to this area and finding out what the cost of things are worth and off they go.
If a member has not logged on once a month after their first month, their account will be suspended and would need to be re-enabled by a moderator. After 3 or 6 months this is relaxed.
3. Delegate load to more members – To implement the above changes, maybe more members should be given moderator privilege to help police such changes and spread the workload over more members. This is obviously subject to rules and conditions.
Some moderators here have expressed their concern over the workload required to police scammers, bloggers and idiots.

Also, we need to be mindful that if we are to protect certain information, we all must be educated to bring up certain information within the correct area.

It’s not too hard to implement changes without charging people to access this forum.

These are only suggestions and maybe these are a catalyst for more improved ones.

Cheers
Pasadena. :)

[johnaec]

New Members must serve a waiting period of 30 days before being given access to Technical help. In this time they must participate in the general forum areas to show their worth. If within the 30 days they have joined and that they have not posted or logged on once, their membership will be cancelled and they will have to re-join and serve out their waiting period again. This is just a one off that applies in the first 30 days. This would definitely sort out time wasters.
I disagree with this. I've gone to a number of forums where I needed some kind of help and it was my first visit. Being told I must provide input and wait 30 days to prove my worth before getting help will instantly put that site on my "do not visit" list! Give people credit that if they found the site useful they're more than likely to return in the future to return the favor.

Market place – To gain access to this area, members must serve at least 30 days AND they must also have posted at least 10 or maybe 20 times (these posts must be moderated to check for mindless banter). The minimum post is implemented on some B&W forums I have registered with but still allows you access to this area, which we’re trying to avoid. All outsiders are concerned about is gaining access to this area and finding out what the cost of things are worth and off they go.
Again, I respectfully disagree. Personally, I appreciate it when a new member posts something for sale - it may be just that item I've been searching for for years...

If a member has not logged on once a month after their first month, their account will be suspended and would need to be re-enabled by a moderator. After 3 or 6 months this is relaxed.I think you've got it backwards - wait 6 months or even a year before suspending an account. What the heck does it matter if they haven't logged on for a few months??

'Just my opinion...

John

[pasadena]

I disagree with this. I've gone to a number of forums where I needed some kind of help and it was my first visit. Being told I must provide input and wait 30 days to prove my worth before getting help will instantly put that site on my "do not visit" list! Give people credit that if they found the site useful they're more than likely to return in the future to return the favor.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Personally, I appreciate it when a new member posts something for sale - it may be just that item I've been searching for for years...
I think you've got it backwards - wait 6 months or even a year before suspending an account. What the heck does it matter if they haven't logged on for a few months??

'Just my opinion...

John

Hi John,

If the world were a perfect place then we wouldn't be having a problem and we wouldn't be here right now talking about this.

But since there is a problem that's bugging everyone then it's come to a point that our current system in place is not working and needs to be reworkd. I would normally agree but it seems that it has now come to a point where drastic measure seems to be required and unfortunately it may or may not agree with everyone.

Maybe until some harsh restrictions are put in place and are working and have weeded out the problem users, can these restrictions be relaxed again and everything be the way it used to be.

I agree with you about the suspension of not logging on once a month after their first month, probably not required at all. If you've got something to sell, I think waiting a month is not so bad.

My point is that we make decisions based on on our surrounding and how they affect us. If it works, don't touch it. We are only driven to making changes if what we interface or our surroundings are causing us problems that we take the necesary steps to counter those problems to achieve Status Quo.

Cheers
Pasadena

[kingjames]

In this time they must participate in the general forum areas to show their worth. :)

Why does anyone have to show their worth and who decide's if you have worth?Where does it say in the rules that when you join Lansing Heritage you leave your mind at home?Where does it say that Lansing heritage is for the DIYer's only?


You may close all the chat area's here and you will not eliminate what you consider off topic no matter how well your intentions are.There are a few people here who think they can force another group to think one way only.Like I said make it a read only site.

I think we are all out to make a buck and if I buy a JBL system that I want to sell that is my business and I don't need to check in here first. I don't part out good system's out of respect for the people here not because I have to.Wake up everyone,we are the first to part system's just some of us doing it under different names.Enough of this goody goody two shoes.

[pasadena]

Why does anyone have to show their worth and who decide's if you have worth?Where does it say in the rules that when you join Lansing Heritage you leave your mind at home?Where does it say that Lansing heritage is for the DIYer's only?


You may close all the chat area's here and you will not eliminate what you consider off topic no matter how well your intentions are.There are a few people here who think they can force another group to think one way only.Like I said make it a read only site.

By worth I mean that a new member is not going to come in and shoot their mouth or cause problems such as the scammer/spammer orthe nuisance person. Sounds like you're happy for these people to join?

Read only will not prove or do anything!

Cheers
Pasadena.

[scott fitlin]

I dont know. I think all forums have some that really know, and some that come to learn. In that respect, all are welcome, all can share equally in the knowledge base.

What it is we are trying to figure out, is how to keep the spammers out. Its a job deleting every spam thread, banning the spammers, etc. I get 5 a day before they even post.

I dont care about real people joining, and what they know, or dont, so, to me, a rating system isnt neccesary, and may bother some people. If real people join, they are welcome, no 'worth' rating is neccesary.

[pasadena]

Scott,

Banning spammers and the likes will not happen until a commitment is made to place restrictions. If none are, then this will continue and moderator's will spend their countless hours keeping this under control (there is so much one can only do). People will have to accept it as every day life and not complain.

I'm sure there's enough points raised in this thread that could lead to a reasonable resolution. It all comes down to how much the moderator's are willing to tighten the screws.

Cheers
Pasadena.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Mark raises an interesting point.

In general as a first time visitor if you make the effort as a lurker you can find what you want without posting a newbie question.

It would be interesting to evaluate the number of registrations with little or no posts and those that posted a newbie new thread.

It might sold a lot of issues to put a 7, 14 or 30 day limit/delay of enabling posting for new members. That would weed out all the spmmers a and trouble makers.

My point is, those who have a vested interest LH will be prepared to waiting and are more likely to be genuine like minded members.

Ian

[scott fitlin]

Scott,

Banning spammers and the likes will not happen until a commitment is made to place restrictions. If none are, then this will continue and moderator's will spend their countless hours keeping this under control (there is so much one can only do). People will have to accept it as every day life and not complain.

I'm sure there's enough points raised in this thread that could lead to a reasonable resolution. It all comes down to how much the moderator's are willing to tighten the screws.

Cheers
Pasadena.You have a point. We are trying to come up with something that will work, and not piss everyone else off.

Your suggestions are taken into consideration.

[kingjames]

I dont know. I think all forums have some that really know, and some that come to learn. In that respect, all are welcome, all can share equally in the knowledge base.

What it is we are trying to figure out, is how to keep the spammers out. Its a job deleting every spam thread, banning the spammers, etc. I get 5 a day before they even post.

I dont care about real people joining, and what they know, or dont, so, to me, a rating system isnt neccesary, and may bother some people. If real people join, they are welcome, no 'worth' rating is neccesary.

very simple. Give some people limited moderator power's to remove spam only.New members can only post to one area and one area only and give power's to some people to delete from this thread only.This way the power is limited to new post only. just a thought.

[pasadena]

I suggest that if anyone who hasn't already put forth their suggestion or those that already have and wish to continue posting further sugeestions without treading on other people's toes, should do so via a PM to the moderator(s).

There's plethora of suggestions already provided in this thread that the moderator's can use, along with PM's that they can make an informed decision and then advise us of their recommendation(s).

The moderator(s) could give us one solution and have that applied and be done with it or give us a top 3 poll.

Cheers
Pasadena

[kingjames]

Never stop the flow of information and there is never too many suggestions.;)

[Mr. Widget]

Never stop the flow of information and there is never too many suggestions.;)Sure, and some people have taken the time to be quite thoughtful and really are trying to be helpful... and a few have simply been trying.

I do not think we can or should devise a filter for "worthy" members... this is a public site and everyone who hasn't been banned for disruptive behavior has the right to post comments as intelligent or otherwise as they like.

The Moderators, Administrators, and even John Nebel, the Forum Member and extremely generous person who helps keep this site running have all said that bringing a mandatory monetary dimension to the site was either unwanted, unwise, or both.

We do have a problem with spammers and have been discussing a variety of methods to reduce the spammer's impact... many of the suggestions that have been posted have been discussed... currently the Spammers are doing no real harm, but we would like to reduce their impact further and will likely be making changes to the registration process.

I personally appreciate the efforts of thread starter EarlK, Pasadena, Johnaec, and the many others who have obviously given this some thought... that said, I'd much rather read Pasadena's comments on his XPL 200s after having lived with them all this time... or hear about John's or Earl's construction projects.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I suggest that if anyone who hasn't already put forth their suggestion or those that already have and wish to continue posting further sugeestions without treading on other people's toes, should do so via a PM to the moderator(s).

There's plethora of suggestions already provided in this thread that the moderator's can use, along with PM's that they can make an informed decision and then advise us of their recommendation(s).

The moderator(s) could give us one solution and have that applied and be done with it or give us a top 3 poll.

Cheers
Pasadena

Widget,

I think what they are saying is the ball's in your court to take some action.

They are if you like the customer and its your dirty shop that needs sweeping out.

Ultimately if someone was making the right kind of decisions you might actually see more of the right type of people actually posting here. These forums are regarded as a bit of a joke by industry insiders. Go figure.

[4313B]

Ultimately if someone was making the right kind of decisions you might actually see more of the right type of people actually posting here.We've talked about that via telephone and ventrilo for years and it just isn't going to happen. They simply do not have the time, nor inclination, to engage in such activity. Plus it's just too pedestrian. Don has stories of very highly gifted individuals with substantial knowledge and experience with respect to their topics literally getting run off forums by the hordes.
These forums are regarded as a bit of a joke by industry insiders. Go figure.Yes, they are, and there's not a whole lot we can do about it. Besides, it really doesn't matter. The industry isn't all that great, it's based on a product that is by no means necessary. It's pure luxury. And a number of them have confessed to me that they wish they had done something meaningful with their lives instead of screwing around with speakers and whatnot the whole time. For alot of people, it's just a job.

[boputnam]

...My point is, those who have a vested interest LH will be prepared to waiting and are more likely to be genuine like minded members.I couldn't agree, less. Many find this place mid-stride a refurbishing project, or stumbling into something on eBay or in their parent's attic, and are anxious and/or in-need of some information. The immediacy of the Internet is contrary to such arcane membership rules.


...its your dirty shop that needs sweeping out.It's actually not so bad - if you ignore the irrelevant pests, there is much relevant going on. As said earlier-on, posters distinguish themselves by their posts - that continues.

Our biggest problem is the mounting and increasingly sophisticated spam - it is dangerous, rude and annoying. At-least Forumites reply to it less which makes it easier to spot...

[4313B]

It's actually not so badWell, that would be your take on it because you are comfortable with the current state of it. I'm also trying to become comfortable with the current state of it instead of fighting it. Some obviously are not. Some obviously couldn't care less. There have been times when we've all said "Gee, this is really bad!" I think what we have to do is adopt the same attitude Don has. It seems the best course.

For instance, questions pop up about repairing loudspeakers. What do we do? Do we let the people who actually have the depth and breadth of experience handle it or do we let the quick and dirty bailing wire and bubble gum crowd handle it? The answer is, we don't do anything. We don't try to control it. As Don suggested, we make our post based on our knowledge and experience and then get out of the thread. Everyone is free to post whatever, whenever, wherever within the stated guidelines and it is each reader's burden to figure out the best course of action for them. I believe some people will see this as a pretty radical departure from the past but it's really the only way it can work. As Don stated the other day, the astute will quickly figure out for themselves which way is up. As someone at JBL stated, it's a real PITA to have to sift through all the idiotic posts to find that one answer you were looking for but what else can you do. Make your post if you feel it is pertinent and make it as clear and concise as possible and then disenage from the thread.

[BMWCCA]

For instance, questions pop up about repairing loudspeakers. What do we do? Do we let the people who actually have the depth and breadth of experience handle it or do we let the quick and dirty bailing wire and bubble gum crowd handle it? Your answer is the correct one. Let people decide by themselves. To assume knowledge comes with the ability---or desire---to pay the entry fee is the definition of insanity. I've learned who here gives the useful advice and who does not. I've also learned who those are who would rather snub someone asking a question beneath their ken than help someone with less knowledge than they have. As we get older, we're supposed to tolerate the ignorance of those younger, or with less experience, than ourselves. We were all newbies at something once. But then I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.
:blink:

[Ducatista47]

...Besides, it really doesn't matter. The industry isn't all that great, it's based on a product that is by no means necessary. It's pure luxury. And a number of them have confessed to me that they wish they had done something meaningful with their lives instead of screwing around with speakers and whatnot the whole time. For alot of people, it's just a job.

All true, but I hope these people don't sell their contribution short. Most of the time, the only way most people have to listen to music is to reproduce a recording.

As I said elsewhere, the power that music has to move a soul is truly a wonder. When the Taliban fell, it was found that Mullah Omar had been listening to recorded music the entire time. (Remember, under the Taliban, no television, radio, cassettes, records, cd's - nothing was allowed.)

When asked about it by a confidant during his stay in power, he replied, "What is life without music?"

Clark

[Harvey Gerst]

Why can't we do it like Craig's List does?
That seems to work very well.

If a post receives a certain number of spam votes from other members, the post is automatically deleted. If it's the first post in a thread, the thread is automatically deleted. No moderator action required.

[4313B]

I've also learned who those are who would rather snub someone asking a question beneath their ken than help someone with less knowledge than they have.That's a new one for me. Who here has demonstrated that kind of behavior?

All true, but I hope these people don't sell their contribution short.I think that happens across all occupations.

If a post receives a certain number of spam votes from other members, the post is automatically deleted. If it's the first post in a thread, the thread is automatically deleted. No moderator action required.:hmm:

[Don C]

As Don stated the other day, the astute will quickly figure out for themselves which way is up.
??? The last time I looked, Don M had not posted here since November of last year. I have been wondering what his opinion was regarding all of this free advice.

[4313B]

??? The last time I looked, Don M had not posted here since November of last year. I have been wondering what his opinion was regarding all of this free advice.His opinion as expressed to me is that he left his Administrators and Moderators in charge to handle it. So far he seems perfectly fine with how everything is going. I've decided to be perfectly fine with is as well. Less stress. The only issues I know of that have his interest are the spam issue, the inability to publish to the website, the flaky search feature and the broken ftp site, and all that is being worked on.

[johnaec]

... or hear about John's or Earl's construction projects.Well, not a big job, but more complicated than it looks, what with getting angles, clearances, and distances just right... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=168507&postcount=12

John

[invstbiker]

Well folks, I've not been on here in a while because of a new venture that requires lots of night work. Goin' to Sturgis in two weeks for the summer, blah blah blah. I've proposed a while ago, some type of membership for a small annual fee of whatever, say 25 bucks, etc and have been a big proponant of contributions to this site and a few (you know who) have stepped up to the plate, most have not. So thats it... $$ talk and bullshit walks. I've received many great ideas here which otherwise could not have been obtained. So I piss a few people off with this idea, so be it. I propose no free-loaders. Now we'll see who's real and whos not. Let the shit fly:D . Bring it on.

[invstbiker]

In reference to this and your other posts here recently that sounds more like plausible deniability than anything else and it does not exactly explain what your about unless you have micaculously changed your spots or your agenda overnight. ie are you the new owner?


IAN, you must be drinkin' the same stuff as me, HA:D

[pasadena]

Bring it on.

Hmmm....shoot now ask questions later.....I assume you read this thread in its entirety, did you not? Sounds much like a moth to burning hot bulb! Guess the outcome!

[invstbiker]

Hmmm....shoot now ask questions later.....I assume you read this thread in its entirety, did you not? Sounds much like a moth to burning hot bulb! Guess the outcome!

Never saw you $$$, BRO, Still love ya though...

[pasadena]

Never saw you $$$, BRO, Still love ya though...

You proved my point! ;)

[Mr. Widget]

It woud seem pointless to keep this thread open if in fact you guys have already sorted some kind of agenda.
I don't think this thread is pointless... it is always good to get feedback. That said, it seems that the usefulness of this thread has been realized and the likelihood of it devolving into noise is high.

Agenda sounds surreptitious to me, but as far as any concrete decisions on how to proceed, I don't think any have been made. We will in time make some changes, but the house isn't on fire and we have other responsibilities outside of this site that often take precedence.


Widget

[4313B]

Giskard,

Where can we all get some of those Pills?

Its not fair..share and share alike....LOLWhat pills? Don laid it out. There isn't much to argue about. This forum is what it is and there is no sense fighting for what it can never be.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I doubt if Bill Gate's would share your view.

In a few years whatever any forums represent and mean to you today will no doubt be quite different.

Its a case of determining if you have an active interest in these forums or not and for the former what if any changes need to be made to keep it a desireable place to share information.

[Audiobeer]

I hope and pray we all don't devote as much time as some of us do on this forum. My god there is still PS3. XBox 360, Cable on Demand, So Much and so little time. My kids are staying home today. One of them is burning something downstairs that smells a lot like that incense they I to smell at rock concerts and the other is making something in the garage for a school project......but why so much gun powder? As for as Don posting here......well I'm making assumptions of course, but I have to believe he isn't posting here because it's not the place it used to be. It's an incredible place don't get me wrong. For a lot of us it's like a great campsite in the woods. You make it what you want. Then one weekend you come out and the place is loaded with folks you have never seen before with 2 cycle weedeaters, 2 cycle mosquito traps, 2 cycle noisy generators for their computers and coolers. Ah the campsite has changed. Very cool for some and vere dissapointing for others. That's the way it is and that's the way it's going to be. :)

Please. don't anyone percieve this as an attack......it's an observation. I'm sure on one hand Don & Steve are dissapointed that in some ways a lot has changed. In others ways...well they have to be very proud of this place. Proud of what it was and what it has become!
:applaud:

[Titanium Dome]

The best way to keep the Lansing Heritage alive is to have an open, vibrant community.

Otherwise it becomes one of two things:

1) A closed, limited community of initiates with secret handshakes, hidden ceremonies, locked doors, and exclusive privileges. Soon a ruling class of Grand Viziers emerges who determine the correct doctrine, the appropriate topics, the authorized procedures, and what the acceptable level of membership is.

2) A wild, uncontrolled free-for-all in which no rule is in force and no excess is out of bounds. Soon a destructive class of vandals emerges who blaspheme all doctrine, decry editorial control as facism, vacate all procedures, and drag all members into the vulgar gutter.

Somewhere between having a half dozen robed, secretive illuminati locked in an inner sanctum and seven thousand naked anarchists rioting in the streets, there is a place for a vibrant community. Perhaps a membership fee is not a currently feasible or necessary solution.

Another way to grow a community is through broader representation in the decision-making or in the advisory process. Another is greater transparency in that process.

As Audiobeer wrote, this is an observation. That's all. :)

[Thom]

but the house isn't on fire



Widget

Feel much better having read this. Many postings to this thread would lead one to beleive some feel differently. Good to see cooler (calmer) heads in control.

[Thom]

The best way to keep the Lansing Heritage alive is to have an open, vibrant community.

Otherwise it becomes one of two things:

1) A closed, limited community of initiates with secret handshakes, hidden ceremonies, locked doors, and exclusive privileges. Soon a ruling class of Grand Viziers emerges who determine the correct doctrine, the appropriate topics, the authorized procedures, and what the acceptable level of membership is.

2) A wild, uncontrolled free-for-all in which no rule is in force and no excess is out of bounds. Soon a destructive class of vandals emerges who blaspheme all doctrine, decry editorial control as facism, vacate all procedures, and drag all members into the vulgar gutter.

Somewhere between having a half dozen robed, secretive illuminati locked in an inner sanctum and seven thousand naked anarchists rioting in the streets, there is a place for a vibrant community. Perhaps a membership fee is not a currently feasible or necessary solution.

Another way to grow a community is through broader representation in the decision-making or in the advisory process. Another is greater transparency in that process.

As Audiobeer wrote, this is an observation. That's all. :)


I wasn't in favor of any changes but you make it sound interesting.