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oldr&b
01-26-2004, 11:07 AM
Having read representative Lansing Heritage dialogue, it's my considered opinion this is where I can share some personal history and opinions without risk of ridicule and ask for feedback and constructive criticism.

I was born in 1947 and there was recorded music, mainly Big Bands, played frequently on a Zenith record player in my childhood home. Some of my earliest memories involve music, recorded and live. My family attended live "big band" concerts in the 1950s at the Cavalier Beach Club in Virginia Beach as well as classical music concerts at the Center Theatre in Norfolk.

When I was 6 years old I had my own AM radio and listened to the local AM radio station, WGH (World's Greatest Harbor) in Newport News, VA, every night after homework through the 50s as they played white bread rock and roll.

I modified my draft card when I was 15 so I could get in the Nags Head NC Casino to listen to the soul bands that played there. I went to live music shows at the Virginia Beach Dome.

I sold consumer electronics and later pro audio including JBL Commercial products in rock and roll music stores in Norfolk in the 70s and 80s. I've been listening to recorded and live music all my life. I'm an "aural" person! Here's what I believe:

(1) Audio memory is short and massively colored by circumstances that have nothing to do with hearing.

(2) Dynamic range is as important as "tonal balance" if real life sound levels are expected.

(3) Listeners need to codify their personal expectations regarding the music playback experience.

Thank you for listening.

boputnam
01-26-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by oldr&b
(1) Audio memory is short and massively colored by circumstances that have nothing to do with hearing. I don't know if I share this view, but I have seen plenty folk around me at concerts that surely were "coloured by circumstances"... :rotfl:

Interesting post, overall. ;)

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 11:29 AM
Bo, I believe I've read of "scientific" experiments, and yes I have no specifics, into the longevity of auditory memory. It's SHORT and doesn't "travel" well. When the listening environment changes, our hearing perception does also. Plus, what the individual brings to the listening experience (mood, expectations) adds coloration. I therefore subscribe to the atti-dude: one person's hi-fi is another's juke box joint. More power, say I.

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 12:08 PM
Bo, perhaps I should have said "the objectively accurate component" of audio memory is short. Even an experienced listener can be fooled into thinking a reproduced sound that is claimed to be one sound is actually something else. How else could the big "golden ear" controversy continue to exist? Self-delusion in the pursuit of enlightenment is alive and well. We, you and I, like JBL products for reasons in addition to their ability to simulate reproduction of live sound, IMO, anyway. Keep the faith.

GordonW
01-26-2004, 12:27 PM
Well, IME, aural memory acuity and consistency is subject to training... as in, a peson can TRAIN their aural memory facilities, to be more consistent, ie, to factor out distractions, environmental changes, and the such, to a degree, in order to "focus" on the sound of an instrument/speaker/room/etc. IOW, it's posisble to make your sonic memory more "transportable", if you use it FREQUENTLY, and take care to carefully consider your responses to what you hear.

This is not to say, that the aural memory can't be "spoofed" by surroundings... but as you get more practice, you can get to recognize the "symptoms" of spoofing, and sometimes "hone in" on what's really going on. For example- I went to a local big mid-fi/hi-fi chain, to check out the new Boston Acoustics VR2 speakers. I had heard the VR1s in our own listening room, and at first "hear", the VR2 sounded DRASTICALLY different in the room there, than the VR1s sounded at our shop (which has a VERY well acoustically-treated room, very good balance between absorbtion and reverberative behaviour). However, as I concentrated on the sound, I could begin to tell what was the character of the speaker, and what was the room, to some respects... by moving about the room, playing other speakers nearby to try and establish a "baseline" for the room itself, I was able to determine that not only were the VR2s SIMILAR to the VR1s, that despite the bad room at the mid-fi place, that the VR2s were probably BETTER, in many ways, than the VR1s. When we finally got our pair of VR2s in to our shop, I was pleased to see that many of the differences I had postulated, were indeed true... especially in the midrange... the improvements in "speed", midbass tonal balance and such.

Mind you, bass response is TOTALLY dependent on surroundings... I don't really even attempt to evaluate bass tonal balance, beyond basic "is there a serious boom/overhang problem here?" in a suspect room. But within reason, it is possible to "suss out" what's going on, through much of the band...

Regards,
Gordon.

Zeke
01-26-2004, 01:10 PM
I had a similar experience with wines as my wife attached me to the tasting hobby. (Short term tasting memory along with perceptions colored by environment.) Relatively soon, however, I began to recognize certain identifiable characteristics such as spice, wood, earth, smoke, and other accepted "norms" in our local tasting club. The more I tasted, the better able I was to both discern differences and similarities between wines -- but also define the characteristics that I enjoy!

Now, I'd rather have cheap wine surrounded by people I enjoy as opposed to fabulous wine in a room of lice: but at least now I know I'm drinking cheap wine!:)

Zeke

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 04:22 PM
What I'm getting at is this: if we can all train our ears to hear OBJECTIVELY the musician's efforts contained on our CDs, LPs, tapes, etc. (since the MUSIC is why we care about the HARDWARE, isn't it?) why don't we just do it and then we can universally agree on exactly what gear it takes to REPRODUCE that music?

Certainly would eliminate a lot of trial and error, not to mention huge chunks of equipment choices. Of course, with one universal playback standard, lots of hi-fi companies pandering to the "amp of the week" contingent would go out of business, but hey, we're after TRUTH and beauty, right, so no price is too high!

Unless we actually enjoy playing with the toys and music is just an excuse.

4313B
01-26-2004, 04:44 PM
"why don't we just do it and then we can universally agree on exactly what gear it takes to REPRODUCE that music?"

"Certainly would eliminate a lot of trial and error, not to mention huge chunks of equipment choices. Of course, with one universal playback standard, lots of hi-fi companies pandering to the "amp of the week" contingent would go out of business, but hey, we're after TRUTH and beauty, right, so no price is too high!"

Given enough time, I'm sure Microsoft will "standardize" that too :rotfl:

"Unless we actually enjoy playing with the toys and music is just an excuse."

The music and the toys go hand in hand I think; I like the way various JBL loudspeakers reproduce various tracks :p

Gosh, I hope those guys buying $10,000 interconnects are doing it for the toys! I sure hope they don't think they're going to get a loudspeaker to sound like an oboe :rotfl: A loudspeaker is a loudspeaker and an oboe is an oboe :) Really! Honest :)

grumpy
01-26-2004, 04:45 PM
I like playing with toys, making and listening to
music. :D

-grumpy

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 05:09 PM
Giskard and Grumpy, I hear you. And, IMO, the truth is we can never RECREATE whole, complete and intact, that moment in time when the music was briefly and vibrantly alive. All we can do now is use our toys to kick the bones around and that has to suffice.

"A speaker is a speaker and an oboe is an oboe". I feel sympathy for those who believe otherwise.

Thanks!

JBLnsince1959
01-26-2004, 05:37 PM
Hi Guys:

I'll jump in for the "fun" of it. Since we are talking about auditory memory and perceptions:

first no one hears the same because anything we "hear" will be mostly a subjective experience. That being said, there are 3 possible ways for people to experience music and each of us will fall into one of these categories and always will ( I'm now quoting from N.L.P. - and how the mind works) .

1. Auditory triggers the persons conscious mind ( beta states - detail) this person is able, more than the others, to hear objectively and remember very accurately what they've heard.

2. Auditory triggers the person Subconscious mind ( alpha states)
things are starting to get a little "fuzzy". This person can't hear the details that group 1 can and their auditory memories are not as accurate.

3. Auditory triggers the unconscious mind (theta states - this is me). auditory memory more fuzzy. Music will move this type of person into a complete dream state. That's not to say that they don't have an auditory memory but it will be very subjective.

Thus, bottom-line is this, everyone is correct, no matter what you believe or how you hear music.


from Giskard
" A loudspeaker is a loudspeaker and an oboe is an oboe Really! Honest "


So true, so true.

and I like playing with toys also. Which toy I play with depends on my mood and how I want to "hear" my music

rick:D

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 06:11 PM
Rick, thanks for the insight. I'm not familiar with "N.L.P." Is it a reference text of some kind?

Also, I apologize to Giskard for paraphrasing him and then neglecting attribution. I hope readers knew where the "quote" came from.

Thanks to all.

"I feel better than James Brown."

boputnam
01-26-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by oldr&b
What I'm getting at is this: if we can all train our ears to hear OBJECTIVELY the musician's efforts contained on our CDs, LPs, tapes, etc. (since the MUSIC is why we care about the HARDWARE, isn't it?) why don't we just do it and then we can universally agree on exactly what gear it takes to REPRODUCE that music? Hey...

I'm behind a bit on this thread (there's no L1:D:D's involved so I must be alert, elsewhere... :flamer: ), but I am prompted here to note that this is near-to impossible. That's why every concert hall I know of has been acoustically refurbished - even those neato little outdoor ampitheaters... There are too many subtleties, nuances, overtones, harmonics that do not travel well - even across an (uncrowded...) room. Even if you are able to capture them on recording, the likelihood of reproducing the event is compounded by issues reated to phasing (did I say polarity...? ;) )time-alignment, room acoustics, etc.

I say, get it as close as is real to you, and keep pushing that envelope, and well, that's as good as it gets. :thmbsup:

oldr&b
01-26-2004, 07:09 PM
Bo, sounds good to me!

RB

JBLnsince1959
01-26-2004, 07:21 PM
Hi oldr&b ::wave:

N.L.P. stands for Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It was developed by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in the mid to late 70's ( yes, they're our age)

Bottom-line, NLP deals with how we organize our subjective experiences in our minds. Really good reading if your into that stuff.

The book I was mostly refering from is a book titled "Open Mind" by Dawna Markova and is a very good layman intro or primer into one aspect of NLP

anyway, there THREE MAIN ways ( there are many really) we organize senory input and memory recall:
1. Visual
2. Auditory
3. Kinesthetically

some will be consciously "visual" ( photographic memory), some will be consciously "auditory" (Phonographic memory) and then people like me will be consciously "Kinesthetic" or experience memory.


for further reading, research anything by Bandler and Grinder.

hope this helps

Now, which toy will I play with and listen to.:hmm:


take care
rick

Alex Lancaster
01-26-2004, 07:45 PM
Something funny is going on...

This is the FIRST thread that everybody (including me) agrees on just about everything.

mmmm..........

Alex.

JBLnsince1959
01-26-2004, 08:04 PM
Alex:

it is kinda scary when you put it like that.........:eek:

MJC
01-26-2004, 09:13 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBLnsince1959
[B]Hi Guys:
first no one hears the same because anything we "hear" will be mostly a subjective experience.
_______________________________________________
Of coarse, that would explain why Bose exist, bad hearing!

JBLnsince1959
01-27-2004, 07:38 AM
Hi MJC:

Exactly!!!! but it's even worst than we thought....

There was a study done about this very thing called the "Bose phenomenon" and what they found is that there are people who can not perceive ANY auditory sensory input at ANY level, but instead must rely on advertising hype to tell them what they are hearing. This is very sad indeed. What really alarmed the researchers is that this seems to be growing at an epidemic rate.

Some conspiracy theorist believe that the government is behind this and is putting something in the water so that the people will believe anything they are told. It's very strange how this report just vanished........:hmm:

This explains why people will spend $800 for a 12" square box "subwoofer" and those little 2" square speakers and call it HT:shock::biting:

One brave soul opened up one these 2" square speaker boxes and was shocked at what he found. Apparantly what's inside those little 2" boxes are speakers from transistor radios from the early 60's. Seems that these have been stuffed in warehouses all these years and Corp. heads have been trying to think of a way to use them.:eek:

be afraid.... be very afraid...

( This particular reply MUST be considered fictional BS ):rotfl:

oldr&b
01-27-2004, 08:47 AM
Hey y'all, could it be popular source material these days isn't very demanding? I mean, what bandwidth challenges do movie sound tracks and hip hop present? Hardware purchasers are looking for impact, not nuance.

Back in the day when I TRIED to sell consumers hi-fi systems, I'd suggest if they had a neutral system they could run it flat when interested in accessing the music's details and when they wanted to rock out, adjust the "tone controls" to their liking. Have their cake and eat it too.:rockon1:

GordonW
01-27-2004, 09:29 PM
Well, the problem is... the modern systems, for a great part, don't do "impact" (ie, dynamics) very well either. The same BPC (black plastic c*** ) that people use for HT, may have decent "bump and rumble"... but usually, those drivers are so over-worked by their low efficiency and the required huge amps to drive them to loud levels, that dynamic compression gets into alarming levels at alarmingly low volumes!

It's nice, to see a few speaker companies bucking the trend, toward the "tiny cube onslaught"... an example lately has been Boston Acoustics... the VR2 I mentioned above. ASTONISHING dynamic effortlessness, for a contemporary "thin tower" speaker. The fact that there's nearly 2 cubic feet of cabinet volume, and an overall sensitivity of nearly 93 dB/2.83V/1m... well, those don't hurt.

Really, yeah... there are an alarming number of people out there, who simply haven't ENCOUNTERED a REALLY GOOD system, in a context that could impress on them, the real BENEFITS thereof. However, I do find... that even the most "tin eared" people, CAN learn, in many cases... case in point, a cousin of mine. Used to be tone-deaf... probably at an earlier age, couldn't hear the functional difference between a transistor radio and a 4343! :eek: But, over the years, I introduced him to many of my own home and car systems, and persuaded him to let me help him build some "cost effective hi-fidelity" systems of his own. I knew I had "gotten through", when he called me from Kansas, where he was working about 8 years ago... he needed a new pair of speakers, and had spent the day listening to various brands. He wanted to know what I thought about Paradigm speakers, specifically the Model 5... he'd been auditioning speakers, and the Paradigm seemed, to him, to have the best combination of non-boomy bass, realistic sounding midrange (he said, to him, the vocals simply "sounded more like real people" on them), and non-sizzly highs. I couldn't fault him, I'd heard the 5's and thought they did well, too... but really, whether or not he picked the best speaker in the world, wasn't the point... it was that he had CREATED for himself, a working JUDGEMENT system, for determining if a piece of hi-fi gear was worth what it cost, to him, using very rational, well-considered parameters. If EVERYONE did that, Bose would probably sell MUCH FEWER speaker systems, IMHO!

But of course, there I go, using that evil LOGIC again... :rolleyes: :D

Regards,
Gordon.

Mr. Widget
01-28-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by GordonW
... there are an alarming number of people out there, who simply haven't ENCOUNTERED a REALLY GOOD system, in a context that could impress on them, the real BENEFITS thereof.

Well, I have several good systems. Seriously above average anyway. Some are refrigerator sized and some are little more than Kleenex boxed sized. All of my non-audio friends who come over say things like "You (I) have the most outrageous sounding audio gear", or "it really sounds like the musicians are in the room", or at least "damn that's loud".

For the most part though, when I try to "help" them out with audio equipment suggestions, they don't want the gear in their lives and while they "can hear the difference", they just don't care. This is why the smallest speaker wins... aka Bose.

oldr&b
01-28-2004, 06:34 AM
IMO, popular enthusiasm for video technology-based entertainment via video gaming and especially HT results in consumers diluting the hardware quality their disposable income can buy.

Folks are being convinced by pop culture marketers they need to "evolve" their home electronics systems into HT rigs. It's pure economics: if John or Jane Consumer goes shopping with $1000.00 for hardware, they can't get as much hi-fi bang for their buck with HT.

Perhaps with time, technology will enable cost effective "hi-fi HT" but for the foreseeable future, of necessity, hi-fi quality in HT audio will continue to be prohibitively expensive! And HT is what the people think they want!

Perception is reality and reality is perception.

4313B
01-28-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
For the most part though, when I try to "help" them out with audio equipment suggestions, they don't want the gear in their lives and while they "can hear the difference", they just don't care.You just nailed that one on the head!
Apathy Abounds :D

boputnam
01-28-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
Some ... of my ... audio friends come over (and) say things like "Is that left-channel 2441 not working...?" :rotfl:

Mr. Widget
01-28-2004, 10:56 AM
oldr&b,

For the most part it is not a matter of economics. Most of my friends could easily afford a $2K system. They either find audio gear visually offensive, just don't give a damn about it, or both. They do enjoy coming over to watch a movie in my HT though.

Hey Tin Ear,

..... well you know!:D :D :D