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Robh3606
04-24-2007, 10:27 PM
Don't be surprised if you see the number going the wrong way. I have started deleting spam accounts and also accounts where there has been no activity for over 2 years. Eventually I will be deleting Zero post accounts in mass. There are literally thousands of bogus spam accounts mixed in with real Zero post members. I will try not to delete any active accounts however there is always the possibility I will make a mistake. I would ask any Zero post member who frequents the Forum with any regularity to please post at least once. That way I know you are an active member and you won't accidentally get cropped.

Thanks Rob:)

kingjames
04-24-2007, 10:50 PM
Now this is definately a plus.;)

Titanium Dome
04-24-2007, 11:06 PM
Thanks for announcing this in advance and for giving members a chance to do something before being surprised by an unannounced change.

This is a definite plus.

Ian Mackenzie
04-24-2007, 11:17 PM
Don't be surprised if you see the number going the wrong way. I will try not to delete any active accounts however there is always the possibility I will make a mistake.
Thanks Rob:)

And loving it Chief. :rotfl:

Rolf
04-25-2007, 02:12 AM
Strange. When this was suggested by me some time ago, I got a lot of pepper. Now, it's ok.:blink:

Here is the thread:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/paperclip.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=453691#) http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/subscribed.gif MEMBERS OF LHF (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270) 2 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270&page=2) 3 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270&page=3))

Robh3606
04-25-2007, 05:48 AM
Morning Rolf

So you are not happy we decided too do this??:blink:


Rob:)

hjames
04-25-2007, 06:06 AM
Morning Rolf

So you are not happy we decided too do this??:blink:


Rob:)

Weird - it was his idea - with the bonus of warning non-post folks before it happens.
What's not to like?

(I have noticed a lot of new spamming in the forums in the last few days - tho the mods DO wipe it up pretty quickly)

BMWCCA
04-25-2007, 06:25 AM
Weird - it was his idea - with the bonus of warning non-post folks before it happens.
What's not to like?I understand. Between the farting and ketchup-on-hot-dog posts there was very little support for the idea of clearing out the dormant members. Fair enough that Rolf is now wondering why his idea that was met with little-to-no support then is now being adopted by the mods. I didn't get that he was any less supportive of it, just wondering what changed among the mods that it was now supported. IMHO, of course....

4313B
04-25-2007, 06:35 AM
Strange. When this was suggested by me some time ago, I got a lot of pepper. Now, it's ok.:blink:

Here is the thread:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/paperclip.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=453691#) http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/subscribed.gif MEMBERS OF LHF (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270) 2 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270&page=2) 3 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=15270&page=3))It had to be looked into just like closing the OT which was first mentioned years ago. Since Don relaxed the requirements of image viewing back in 3rd quarter of last year there really shouldn't be too much of an impact. Those who wish to still use PM's can rejoin if they desire. And the idea to whack the zero posts has also been around a few years.

hjames
04-25-2007, 06:38 AM
I understand. Between the farting and ketchup-on-hot-dog posts there was very little support for the idea of clearing out the dormant members. Fair enough that Rolf is now wondering why his idea that was met with little-to-no support then is now being adopted by the mods. I didn't get that he was any less supportive of it, just wondering what changed among the mods that it was now supported. IMHO, of course....

I think what we don't see is that the mods are pretty spread out so they are different schedules and clocks. From the OT discussion it sounds like they discuss any major change for a while before it gets implemented.
It looks like its just over a month since Rolf proposed it ... (March 15th). http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=156864&postcount=1

5 weeks/30 days seems like a pretty reasonable turnaround time to me.

I mean, this IS an international forum

4313B
04-25-2007, 06:56 AM
From the OT discussion it sounds like they discuss any major change for a while before it gets implemented.Pretty much for years and at least twenty times too many.

JBLnsince1959
04-25-2007, 07:11 AM
I would ask any Zero post member who frequents the Forum with any regularity to please post at least once. That way I know you are an active member and you won't accidentally get cropped.

Thanks Rob:)


I find this a reasonable thing to ask the zero post members and I think the whole idea is wonderful..

However, i must scratch my head in wonderment at the timing of it, because I keep thinking WHERE will all of these people ( if there are many ) going to POST????

Seems the most logical forum would have been the Off Topic, so as not to mess up the "better" forums ( that is one of the biggest complains from the moderators over the years isn't it?)... Maybe we could have deleted the OT forum AFTER doing this..

then again maybe I've missed the point and the Moderators want the other "better" forums overwhelmed with many trival posts just so people aren't deleted.

So...to all you zero's, please post here to keep the rest of the forums clean..

thank you

Rolf
04-25-2007, 07:43 AM
Morning Rolf

So you are not happy we decided too do this??:blink:


Rob:)

Yes I am happy with it. Just confused over the "dime flip".

But I have seen this before, both in my work and not to mention in politics. When the boss(es) find it ok ... then it's ok.

JBLnsince1959
04-25-2007, 08:14 AM
Yes I am happy with it. Just confused over the "dime flip".

But I have seen this before, both in my work and not to mention in politics. When the boss(es) find it ok ... then it's ok.

In the U.S. it's called NIH ( Not Invented Here)

Robh3606
04-25-2007, 08:24 AM
However, i must scratch my head in wonderment at the timing of it, because I keep thinking WHERE will all of these people ( if there are many ) going to POST????

Hello JBLsince1959

Well to stay on Topic I figured logically they could just drop a post here in this thread. But that's just me.


just wondering what changed among the mods that it was now supported.

So you know why. Spending some time looking at the new accounts and looking at the IP adresses. This is an example. All spam accounts, coupled with watching 20 or more a day of the same just waiting to SPAM us like Heather noticed. 21 from a single IP. Giskard is correct this was discussed long before Rolf droped his post up.



Rob:)

Earl K
04-25-2007, 08:55 AM
So you know why. Spending some time looking at the new accounts and looking at the IP adresses. This is an example. All spam accounts, coupled with watching 20 or more a day of the same just waiting to SPAM us like Heather noticed. 21 from a single IP. Giskard is correct this was discussed long before Rolf droped his post up.

I'll suggest ,
(i) Not allowing any new accounts to register for some months ( time-period TBD ) . This coupled with a culling of all inactive ( as well as current spammer ) accounts / should make the site a less attractive target to the spammers .

(ii) Since spammers work on the premise of reaching "reading eyes" / perhaps it's time to close down the site and then reopen it to interested registrants ( under a new banner & URL ). This will shake loose a lot of the detritus that serve only to bloat the numbers "traffic" / helpig to attract the spammers .



:)

hjames
04-25-2007, 09:08 AM
You have two basic options when you design a forum.

Either you have to be a member to post,
or, anyone can post

If you have to be a member, you are required to post some contact info to be verified before you can post - usually an email address.

Spammers have an endless stream of email addresses - and and endless stream of patience - most spamming is done by scripted "bots" anyway.

There are major businesses established on the need to separate spammers from genuine human forum members.

Restarting the site will not dump the chumps (spammers) - you'd be surprised how fast they will find you ... about as fast as legimate forum members - and because you HAVE to leave a trail so WE can find the new site - so will they.



I'll suggest ,
(i) Not allowing any new accounts to register for some months ( time-period TBD ) . This coupled with a culling of all inactive ( as well as current spammer ) accounts / should make the site a less attractive target to the spammers .

(ii) Since spammers work on the premise of reaching "reading eyes" / perhaps it's time to close down the site and then reopen it to interested registrants ( under a new banner & URL ). This will shake loose a lot of the detrus that serve only to bloat the numbers "traffic" / attracting the spammers .



:)

4313B
04-25-2007, 09:22 AM
I'll suggest ,
(i) Not allowing any new accounts to register for some months ( time-period TBD ) . This coupled with a culling of all inactive ( as well as current spammer ) accounts / should make the site a less attractive target to the spammers .

(ii) Since spammers work on the premise of reaching "reading eyes" / perhaps it's time to close down the site and then reopen it to interested registrants ( under a new banner & URL ). This will shake loose a lot of the detrus that serve only to bloat the numbers "traffic" / attracting the spammers .



:)Those ideas have been brought up before. We'll see what shakes out. Don has mentioned some potential changes in recent months so we'll see what comes to pass. It all sounds pretty exciting.

There are major businesses established on the need to separate spammers from genuine human forum members.

Restarting the site will not dump the chumps (spammers) - you'd be surprised how fast they will find you ... about as fast as legimate forum members - and because you HAVE to leave a trail so WE can find the new site - so will they.Yep. I had a boss once that suggested every spammer and hacker should be publicly executed in front of the Washington Memorial on National TV. Maybe we can come up with some kind of punishment that isn't quite as severe but will still have some kind of impact on the onslaught. I personally don't care because the spammers and hackers have put alot of people to work that would otherwise drift over here to this website and blog their days away about who knows what.

Rolf
04-25-2007, 09:59 AM
Giskard is correct this was discussed long before Rolf droped his post up.



Rob:)

So ... why the negative feedback and "farting" from some that obiviously knew? Why could it not have been said in the thread that: "We are already discussing this"? Not just "kill" my question.

SEAWOLF97
04-25-2007, 10:08 AM
Maybe we can come up with some kind of punishment that isn't quite as severe but will still have some kind of impact on the onslaught.

Make them buy Bose ?

4313B
04-25-2007, 10:26 AM
Make them buy Bose ?D'oh! Too harsh!

hjames
04-25-2007, 10:48 AM
Nah - it's not severe enough - the whole "get rich quick on someone else's back" mentality needs to get flogged out of them 'til they have respect for other people's work.

I like the televised part - although I wouldn't watch it, enough would to make a real impact.
We had a high power UHF station come to town in the 70s - to make an impact, they ran "Live Bullfights from Mexico City" on Saturday night - brutal stuff, but it got the eyeballs. So would spammer (and malware) floggings. And put the virus writers at the end of a firing squad - that'd get some viewers too!




Yep. I had a boss once that suggested every spammer and hacker should be publicly executed in front of the Washington Memorial on National TV. Maybe we can come up with some kind of punishment that isn't quite as severe but will still have some kind of impact on the onslaught.

boputnam
04-25-2007, 10:51 AM
Thanks for announcing this in advance and for giving members a chance to do something before being surprised by an unannounced change.Ouch.

Hit me again... :(

JBLnsince1959
04-25-2007, 11:13 AM
D'oh! Too harsh!

No, not enough.....;)

Well Rob. I wish you guys all the luck with this and the other changes..It will be interesting to see how it plans out..

Robh3606
04-25-2007, 08:59 PM
Looks like we are down to a more realistic number. That is with almost all of the Zero posters gone. Comes out to 2,459 from over 7500. If anyone has any issues please PM me.

Thanks Rob:)

4313B
04-25-2007, 09:46 PM
Outstanding! Thanks Rob.

Now lets start pruning from the other end too shall we? I figure nobody has much to say above maybe 25 posts so delete everyone who has made more than 25. Once that's done we should be good to go. :)

Zilch
04-25-2007, 10:29 PM
Yes, please. Cut my post count to 25.

[Leave the posts, tho.... ;) ]

Titanium Dome
04-25-2007, 11:35 PM
Here's the top ten list of the first to go.

Giskard Senior Member 7,961
Mr. Widget Administrator 7,138
Zilch Curve Junkie 6,930
boputnam Moderator / LH Treasurer 4,858
Titanium Dome Inverted Dome Metalhead 4,370
Ian Mackenzie Senior Member 4,058
Robh3606 Senior Member 3,970
scott fitlin Moderator 3,066
johnaec Senior Member 2,796
Earl K Senior Member 2,251

-------------------------------------

Rob, that clean up was a big effort. Thanks and good job.

Titanium Dome
04-25-2007, 11:37 PM
Ouch.

Hit me again... :(

I don't get it. :dont-know

Mr. Widget
04-25-2007, 11:54 PM
I don't get it. :dont-knowI guess he took your post as a back handed compliment.


Widget

Rolf
04-25-2007, 11:54 PM
Here's the top ten list of the first to go.

Giskard Senior Member 7,961
Mr. Widget Administrator 7,138
Zilch Curve Junkie 6,930
boputnam Moderator / LH Treasurer 4,858
Titanium Dome Inverted Dome Metalhead 4,370
Ian Mackenzie Senior Member 4,058
Robh3606 Senior Member 3,970
scott fitlin Moderator 3,066
johnaec Senior Member 2,796
Earl K Senior Member 2,251

-------------------------------------

Rob, that clean up was a big effort. Thanks and good job.

If about 50% of those in the list, and some not on the list suddenly disappeared, the Lansing Heritage Site can be for real people, and have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time.

Mr. Widget
04-25-2007, 11:54 PM
There is a fundamental difference between deleting zero posters and removing the Off Topic area. Since Zero Posters have done nothing wrong they should be alerted... we probably should have given a longer notice period, but so be it.

As for the deletion of the OT area, no one individual was singled out or penalized. We decided that a change should be made for the betterment of the Discussion Forums and we implemented that change.


Widget

Mr. Widget
04-25-2007, 11:59 PM
If about 50% of those in the list, and some not on the list suddenly disappeared, the Lansing Heritage Site can be for real people, and have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time.Rolf... sometimes you take this stuff a bit too seriously. I believe Giskard was making a sarcastic remark... I really doubt he literally thinks that.


Widget

naej454
04-26-2007, 12:02 AM
I read you and i learn.

Rolf
04-26-2007, 02:24 AM
Rolf... sometimes you take this stuff a bit too seriously. I believe Giskard was making a sarcastic remark... I really doubt he literally thinks that.


Widget

Maybe I do. (Take it too seriously) So be it. I am serious about my hobbies. Should I not? Carry on.

4313B
04-26-2007, 03:00 AM
If about 50% of those in the list, and some not on the list suddenly disappeared, the Lansing Heritage Site can be for real people, and have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time.I think you misjudge the importance of the forum. The forum as a whole has become a very mediocre, very pedestrian place with very little impact on much of anything. One person in particular has managed to drag it down to a grade C level (70 percentile). While it might be viewed as a shame by many, and many have lamented such, it really doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

I have talked with Don too many times to count about the state of the forum and the response has always been consistent. It's degeneration was foreseen and is considered the normal lifecycle. This website will eventually decline in popularity as JBL and Altec decline in popularity. The forum, as well as those whom the forum has become their only social outlet, will probably not be its undoing.

Where we once strived to make this forum grade A with rock solid information and data we have finally come to realize that endeavor was doomed to failure given the current structure. That can be rectified without impacting the need some people have to come here daily and express themselves to their little audience on the world wide web. The considerable angst generated by the decline of the forums was unfortunate and unnecessary.

Your continued bitching about the forum is just that, bitching, and the moderators would do well to follow the webmaster's lead and simply ignore you, so long as you continue to abide by the posting rules. But, I understand their desire to defend what they helped create. The basic premise is - feel free to participate or feel free to leave, either is fine. I think most would prefer you to stay and add your two cents worth and I hope you consider that before making a decision either way.

JBL continues to reference this website and refer their customers to this website. The forum aspect of the website has become far less interesting to them as it once was while the rest of the site remains a decent draw. The Library needs an expansion and the technical reference section needs to be relocated out of the forums. It has been mentioned that the English version of the four Stereo Sound articles will be added as well as more personal profiles and product profiles.

Rolf... sometimes you take this stuff a bit too seriously. I believe Giskard was making a sarcastic remark... I really doubt he literally thinks that.Joking as opposed to being sarcastic. I laughed.

Robh3606
04-26-2007, 06:10 AM
Hello Rolf


If about 50% of those in the list, and some not on the list suddenly disappeared, the Lansing Heritage Site can be for real people, and have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time.

Well I see it this way

If more of the people that post here had something constructive to say or add to the threads , then suddenly , the Lansing Heritage Site can have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time if that does not happen.

Off Topic for the most part was destructive and changed the focus of those here. It was a distraction that many times did more harm than good.

If you want this place to survive try contributing in a positive manner by adding real substance to these forums. It is real easy to sit back and do nothing but find fault.

Rob:)

hjames
04-26-2007, 06:31 AM
Thank you, sir!

Its hard to find things in a lot of the technical threads because (sometimes) they get bogged down in side issues or even unrelated issues.
To help this be more of a resource it would be helpful to dump some of those off-topic posts in significant threads. Of course, a lot of those side posts help show the character and flavour of the folks involved ...
it would be a tough nut to crack.

BTW - I am NOT picking on the things you have discussed - I am supportive of the site getting more "On Topic".

I DON'T want the Lansing Heritage site to be "just another chat-room" - thats what AOL is for ...






... I see it this way

If more of the people that post here had something constructive to say or add to the threads , then suddenly , the Lansing Heritage Site can have a possibility to survive in the future.

As far as I can see it will slowly die out over time if that does not happen.
...

If you want this place to survive try contributing in a positive manner by adding real substance to these forums.

Rob:)

Rolf
04-26-2007, 06:43 AM
Hi Giskard and others.

Am I misjudging the importance of the forum? Maybe, but I have trouble seeing it myself.

I will try to give my points of view to your above post as serious as possible, but please understand that English is not my 1st language.

Yes, me to think that the forum in SOME ways have gone the wrong way over the past years, but please understand the situation I, and I believe many others see it. Let me try to explain: I read most of the posts in the General, Technical and Diy forums. What I can help with here is very limited, as there are questions there that require more technical experience than I have, but I answer and give advise if there is something I know. The experience I have is listening, connections, products, rooms etc etc.

I do not believe that the forum ever will go down because of less interest of JBL and Lansing speakers. If so we are talking about a 100 years from now.

You, and probably everybody else know that the passion we have in common is not the only interest we have. I like to give an example from the years I have been on the forum, please bare with me.

The first experience for me was to get information of what was wrong with the woofers in me 4333A's. I fixed the problem. Next was the help you gave me helping me get the diaphragms for my 2420 drivers. Problem solved. (Again, THANK YOU!) As I continue reading, there was posts from time to time that had nothing to do with our beloved speakers, and I noticed that people here had other interests as well as I had. Some even had the same interests.

So, when the OT arrived I was very happy. There I could post threads like "How is your season?", dog and fishing questions and so on. After this I got a lot of PM's from members who share the same interest. some of us have even agreed to meet when the time is right. After that the thread posted was dead. Where can I put something like this now?, and that is one reason I think is was a mistake to remove the OT.

That said, a lot of threads in the OT is in my opinion totally #%¤$. A question, yes. A constantly thread posting of pictures, movies etc is in my opinion unnecessary. The same is all the political and related threads. But the good thing was that it made members connect to each other via PM's.

Giskard: My "continued bitching of the forum" has come to an end. What I have done is simply to give my meaning and frustration over the decision, and the way it was done. By the way, has it been that much bitching?

All of you that originally put this site together, with all of the information in the Library have my greatest respect, and I believe this work must continue. And the only ones that can do this is those that know the most.

I have no plan of leaving the forum, but as I said in another post, you will not hear from me as often as before. The explanation is above.

Regarding this website importance for JBL, and reference to it, I believe that if the technical and all over know-how here is up to standards, they will probably overlook an OT forum.

At the end of this "long" post I say: Sorry I did not catch you "joke" or "sarcasm".

rek50
04-26-2007, 08:07 AM
April 03-April 07

Whew, over 7,961 posts.

"Where we once strived to make this forum grade A with rock solid information and data we have finally come to realize that endeavor was doomed to failure given the current structure. "

HEY, This forum STILL has grade A, rock solid information and data. Like
diamonds "Hidden" in a mine, or chunks of gold in a stream, you have to "work" past the inevitable, predictable, "Din". Scrub the oyster, to find the pearl, type thing. Small price to pay for knowledge.

Carry On............

JBL 4645
04-26-2007, 08:41 AM
Make them buy Bose ?

LOL Bose be buggered…:rotfl:

kingjames
04-26-2007, 08:53 AM
This thread has drawn a lot of reply's both pro and con and won't die.Why is this? Very simple IMHO. You have removed the human element from this site . You have made it strictly business.You also have shown more respect to zero posters than you have to the majority of it's senior member's.They at least had a warning. WE got oohgots!

Remove all the bullshit that was posted there and what do you have? A place for JBL people to meet one another.We love JBL but don't have the technical skills to meet people in the DIY. The off topic area should have had some guidelines,no religion,no politics, no flaming,etc;. The Global climate thread should have been just that and not Al Gored.The moderator's could have set some guidelines and stuck to them.

Some reply's to this thread are mean, humor injected,sarcastic,back handed,and downright belligerent.Remarks as these should not be made as they often end in most people taking them personally and out of context. We are not mind reader's here.Putting a little smiley next to these remarks does not lessen it's impact.

Never in all my life have I heard of an entire topic area being wiped out because the post's were read by people who proclaim they have no such use for it.Double handed at the least.

I don't like the off topic area but I'll read it then I post numerous times in this area that I do not like and then I will bitch about it being there.That's:bs:

Do you people really think you can stop other people from reaching out to one another? Your're attempt at this will fail.There just ain't that many DIY'ers in the world let alone JBL DIY'ers.You have to have an area where the same interest's are explored for everyone .The only requirement should be the Love for JBL (not ownership) because believe it or not there is still some people who love JBL but can't afford them.

By taking out this area without warning was an insult,you can sugar coat it anyway you like but it was downright wrong and selfish,period!

JBL 4645
04-26-2007, 09:17 AM
Hear, hear I agree absolutely with KingJames. I’ve seen some strange happenings on other forums sites but nothing quite like this low numbers is all I have to say low numbers.

hjames
04-26-2007, 09:21 AM
But its a VOLUNTEER site - its not bought and paid for - you don't pay a monthly fee to use the service.

Who was gonna go through that Al Got Gored thread and tell people which posts stay and which are off topic?? Its not the point of the site.

You put resources where you can afford to put them. Its a volunteer site and Moderators - GOOD Moderators are a rare commodity

These volunteers only have so many hours in a day - they have to figure which fights they can afford and which take up too much time and contribute little. And I gather, from what I saw and what they told us here, that it took a disproportional amount of their time to keep OT civil.
There were some MEAN fights there and in a few other places ...
It didn't earn its keep, so to speak.
Why is that so hard for people to understand?

AOL has paid moderators - the Lansing Forum is basically a labor of love - and there was very little love in the OT threads ... and a lot of flame.

I am not a Moderator - but I saw these things ... it was pretty apparent that OT was a mess ... for the site to continue it needed to go

This topic is well hammered - time to move on to a new discussion.

Its a JBL website - not a pub.
Its not a site for everyone - it may not be the site for you ...

JBL 4645
04-26-2007, 09:30 AM
Oh I almost chocked on my McCoy’s chips! “Good commodity”

4313B
04-26-2007, 09:46 AM
If you want this place to survive try contributing in a positive manner by adding real substance to these forums.Exactly.

April 03-April 07

Whew, over 7,961 posts.

HEY, This forum STILL has grade A, rock solid information and data. Like
diamonds "Hidden" in a mine, or chunks of gold in a stream, you have to "work" past the inevitable, predictable, "Din". Scrub the oyster, to find the pearl, type thing. Small price to pay for knowledge.

Carry On............The start date was back in 2000 and the actual post count is roughly triple that but who's counting. You and others have brought up this point numerous times and my response has always been - those who actually have the most to contribute have fallen way behind. The simple explanation is this - at one time one could log on and scan the posts for pertinent questions and fire off answers to those questions. What has happened is that merely logging on has now become a daunting process with so much "content" to sift through for pertinent questions to provide proper answers to that it simply isn't a doable process any longer. You know what the answer to that has been? "Let them figure it all out themselves."


Nice post Heather.
the Lansing Forum is basically a labor of loveYou are correct in that it was a labor of love, and a ferocious one at that. I cannot express the amount of disappointment I have with the way this forum turned out. Oh well, I'll get over it someday. :)

This thread has drawn a lot of reply's both pro and con and won't die.Why is this? Very simple IMHO. You have removed the human element from this site.If closing OT is removing the human element from the site then good riddance! I'm not even going to allow myself to continue on the rant I have brewing right now. Put your hands over your head and step away from the keyboard! :)

BTW - I do know what you mean and I understand where you are coming from. ;) It is extremely easy for me to argue for either side.

Rolf
04-26-2007, 10:29 AM
Exactly.
The start date was back in 2000 and the actual post count is roughly triple that but who's counting.

I believe I became a member in 2001. Don't you (or Don, or others that started this site) have any comments regarding my reply to you?

EDIT ...
now ... one of the threads that should have been closed a long time ago is: "What are you playing now".

hjames
04-26-2007, 10:36 AM
now ... one of the threads that should have been closed a long time ago is: "What are you playing now".

But there are no fights in there - it doesn't take any effort to moderate it like Global Warming, Al got Gored did ...

Really - its Moderators managing their limited time and resources ...
and yes, I have posted in both threads ...

Rolf
04-26-2007, 10:41 AM
But there are no fights in there - it doesn't take any effort to moderate it like Global Warming, Al got Gored did ...

Really - its Moderators managing their limited time and resources ...
and yes, I have posted in both threads ...

Yes, and reading (like my few posts there) posts from drunk people. At least the Al Gore thread has a meaning. But I don't expect you to understand the seriously in this. (After reading your posts)

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:04 AM
But its a VOLUNTEER site - its not bought and paid for - you don't pay a monthly fee to use the service.

Who was gonna go through that Al Got Gored thread and tell people which posts stay and which are off topic?? Its not the point of the site.

You put resources where you can afford to put them. Its a volunteer site and Moderators - GOOD Moderators are a rare commodity



A contribution to this site should give you that priviledge.This forum is about people and information it is not about people who have the biggest feet.

A moderator 's job is to keep the peace. If thread's are out of line it is not our fault we don't have delete access. Only the moderators have that access and if they can not perform their volunteer duties than get some more moderators.It was suggested that you Heather be a moderator to dump the chumps(good idea) allow's the moderator's to concentrate in other area's.

Even good moderator's are human and they do make mistake's like this one.

hjames
04-26-2007, 11:04 AM
I don't drink and come online - but I'm not going to be drawn into a fight about the site.

I have built websites and forums for years - its what I do for a living.
I built Bulletin Boards as a hobby before that - since 1990.

But when I read people like KJ talking about checks and balance -
or you talking about censorship and political oppression here (not in those words directly, but thats really what you have been implying), I have to wonder what kind of life some of you have outside the computer.

Insulting me does no good - I don't own the site or control it. I didn't make the changes, and can't change it back - but I understand WHY it happened.

I'll go home and have a steak and a beer and snuggle my honey and the site will still be here tomorrow.

Its spring - flowers and trees are blooming - it was mid-70s yesterday. Take a few moments offline and relax. have a beer or wine, listen to some music. Watch a movie. relax some more.

Be nice to each other ... sheesh. How can you talk about community and be so insulting to the volunteers here?


Yes, and reading (like my few posts there) posts from drunk people. At least the Al Gore thread has a meaning. But I don't expect you to understand the seriously in this. (After reading your posts)

hjames
04-26-2007, 11:13 AM
A contribution to this site should give you that priviledge.

No - a Contribution is just that - you CHOOSE to contribute.
Its not a fee that grants you rights and privileges.
You don't get a BILL and you don't have controlling interests.

I pay a $45 monthly BILL before each month to my cable company just for Internet access.

I use a few web sites that charge a membership fee and I pay those because I put that kind of value on them.

But LHS doesn't charge a fee.

I contributed money to the LHS site last year because it gave me value - it saved me money on a couple of my purchases - I was smarter for it.
I didn't HAVE to pay - it was my choice.
This is like PBS - pay if you like and enjoy what's offered.
If you don't like it, you change the station.

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:14 AM
Exactly.
The start date was back in 2000 and the actual post count is roughly triple that but who's counting. You and others have brought up this point numerous times and my response has always been - those who actually have the most to contribute have fallen way behind. The simple explanation is this - at one time one could log on and scan the posts for pertinent questions and fire off answers to those questions. What has happened is that merely logging on has now become a daunting process with so much "content" to sift through for pertinent questions to provide proper answers to that it simply isn't a doable process any longer. You know what the answer to that has been? "Let them figure it all out themselves."


Maybe this is because you are too concerned about what was in the Off topic area, so you chose to read through all the BS instead of being in the area where your skills were needed.

Name one person here or anywhere that goes through life and puts JBL into every discussion they have, then why is that required here?

Giskard you have a knack for eliminating the human element and it speaks well of your reputation,However I am not like you and I like a little human element in my life.I prefer not to be a robot!

hjames
04-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Name one person here or anywhere that goes through life and puts JBL into every discussion they have, then why is that required here?

Because its a JBL website - see the name on the top of EVERY PAGE



Giskard you have a knack for eliminating the human element and it speaks well of your reputation,However I am not like you and I like a little human element in my life.I prefer not to be a robot!

Maybe you need to join some other sites to get that human element?
Come here for JBL, go there as well for chatchat ...
Does it ALL have to be on this ONE SITE?

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Because its a JBL website - see the name on the top of EVERY PAGE


Maybe you need to join other sites for that human element?


Then you wonder why you get the insults even though I never insulted you.There are better ways to say something Heather,your answers or reply's are sarcastic to say the least.

How is that you being one of the major contributors in the off topic area that you can do such an about face in so short of time?Are you going with the flow?Hopping on the band wagon?

I also don't need to go to another forum to get the human element,I prefer to stay right here and enjoy it here.

Robh3606
04-26-2007, 11:32 AM
Hello Kingjames



A moderator 's job is to keep the peace. If thread's are out of line it is not our fault we don't have delete access.

So it's the Moderators fault?? They forced you to post something that should not have been posted?? We are supposed to keep the peace??

How about accepting some responsabillity for your own actions. We did very well for years without Moderation because as a group we were self moderating. We all gave a damn about what was posted here and didn't use the Forums to harrass other members.


if they can not perform their volunteer duties than get some more moderators.

You want more Moderators?? Why don't you pretend to be one before the poison pen comes out?? You the members are the Forum and you set the tone here. Why don't you all treat each other with a little more respect and you will see less and less Moderation.

Rob:)

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:34 AM
No - a Contribution is just that - you CHOOSE to contribute.
Its not a fee that grants you rights and privileges.
You don't get a BILL and you don't have controlling interests.

I pay a $45 monthly BILL before each month to my cable company just for Internet access.

I use a few web sites that charge a membership fee and I pay those because I put that kind of value on them.

But LHS doesn't charge a fee.

I contributed money to the LHS site last year because it gave me value - it saved me money on a couple of my purchases - I was smarter for it.
I didn't HAVE to pay - it was my choice.
This is like PBS - pay if you like and enjoy what's offered.
If you don't like it, you change the station.

Again you take what I say out of context. I don't expect priviledge's because I made a contribution, I did it because of what this site had to offer.How many contributions were there from the people who want the off topic area? This is the core question.

By the way get rid of the Birthday announcements as this is a human element category.I'm done with this as I might get myself banned.

scott fitlin
04-26-2007, 11:41 AM
This thread has degenerated into the same exact things that were happening in OT, and WHY OT was removed! Mudslinging and fur flying.

Rob, all the points neccesary have been made, I recommend closing this thread, as there are no more useful contributions that are going to be put forth.

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:41 AM
Hello Kingjames




So it's the Modrators fault?? They forced you to post something that should not have been posted?? We are supposed to keep the piece??

How about accepting some responsabillity for your own actions. We did very well for years without Moderation because as a group we were self moderating. We all gave a damn about what was posted here and didn't use the Forums to harrass other members.



You want more Moderators?? Why don't you pretend to be one before the poison pen comes out?? You the members are the Forum and you set the tone here. Why don't you all treat each other with a little more respect and you will see less and less Moderation.

Rob:)

I agree, but I don't post that kind of shit and I can't speak for anyone else.You will always have some asshole posting some bullshit, but if it doesn't end with you guys then who? I don't blame the moderator's but you guys have the power to end these thread's not me.

The off topic area was designed with no guidelines and you left it wide open for all material.What would have happened if you had set some guidelines? This area was considered anything goes because guidelines were never set. Now you want to say it got out of hand,now I ask what did you expect?

kingjames
04-26-2007, 11:42 AM
This thread has degenerated into the same exact things that were happening in OT, and WHY OT was removed! Mudslinging and fur flying.

Rob, all the points neccesary have been made, I recommend closing this thread, as there is no more useful contributions that are going to be put forth.

Who's throwing the mud here. The people with their sarcastic remarks to gain browny points with the status quo>

scott fitlin
04-26-2007, 11:56 AM
I agree, but I don't post that kind of shit and I can't speak for anyone else.You will always have some asshole posting some bullshit, but if it doesn't end with you guys then who? I don't blame the moderator's but you guys have the power to end these thread's not me.

The off topic area was designed with no guidelines and you left it wide open for all material.What would have happened if you had set some guidelines? This area was considered anything goes because guidelines were never set. Now you want to say it got out of hand,now I ask what did you expect?Well, for one thing, WE expected people to have some self control. WE also expected members to treat each other with some respect, instead of ConflamaDrama all the time. This is one thing YOU are a large part of! Everything has to be a confrontation of sorts, rather than a discussion.

Let ME be the one to tell you I doubt you remember this forum when we first began, had NO mods, and this was the nicest place to be. ALL the other forums had fights, name calling, threats, insults, you name it. But not here. Here, you could come to talk audio, specifically JBL and Altec audio, and get some of the BEST answers, and solutions anywhere, including better than what the manufacturers themselves had to offer.

Then, we grew, then, as everyone found this place, everyone came here, and all the shitstirring began. Dont you ever wonder WHY you dont see the quality of posts that we used to be known for 3 to 5 years ago?

Who wants to talk serious audio, everytime you say something, it turns into a confrontation with some over who knows what the hell they are talking about! Then, the BS remarks towards each other come, then the fights.

Hey KJ, what exactly do YOU expect from this forum?

ALL you bring to the table is CONFLAMADRAMA.

scott fitlin
04-26-2007, 12:09 PM
As I stated earlier, this thread has degenerated into the same thing that OT was canned for.

The thread is closed to further posts. With all due respect, and especially to Rob as it is his thread, all points have already been made!

If Rob, or any of the other mods feel the thread needs to be reopened, that will be their prerogative to do so. But at this time, I find it neccesary to close it to further rantings.