Should I Sell the System, and If So, What Should I Get?

[toddalin]

The other day I sold the C50/S7s and the guy was going to come back on Saturday and give me $250 for a pair of original 130As. He called on Sunday, but didn't show.

In his hesitation, I sold the 130As to another gent for $275/pr.

The other gent also wants to buy my L200 cabineted 2235/LE175/HL-91/075 cabinets and my center channel cabinet (2235/LE175/HL-89/075/W15GTI). I told him they would be quite expensive, ~$3,000 for the three speakers. He was willing and ready to pay the price! But then my wife asked what could I replace them with that I would be happy with for the money?

The offer is still on the table. Anyone have any ideas on a reasonable upgrade or some nice equipment they want to part with? I would prefer three speakers all the same.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/room2.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/L200-2235.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/center-2235-w15gti.jpg

[boputnam]

But then my wife asked what could I replace them with that I would be happy with for the money?I think I like your wifey... :yes:

First off, without FR measurement(s) of those, in that setting, how do you know what you are risking losing? Maybe you have a perfectly matched system and room? How cool is that! Certainly, the color scheme works (maybe that is some of the wifey's thinking, too... :hmm: ).

I'd arrange to take some quality FR measurements, on and off axis, and see if there is anything lacking in the FR. If so, try some modest PEQ fixes. Re-measure.

See you then... :wave:

[sourceoneaudio]

But then my wife asked what could I replace them with that I would be happy with for the money?



http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/room2.jpg





Looks like JBL Array is around the corner???

J/S-S1A :D

[Storm]

How about some Altec Valencias?

;)

Just my biased, one sided opinion.

-Storm

[scott fitlin]

$3000 today, will not buy you the same amount or quality of sound that you have. IMHO.

You have to think hard about doing this, replacing what you have with something as satisfying wont be an easy task.

[Zilch]

It's over a year since you were last here to listen.

Time for another visit, maybe.... :yes:

[sourceoneaudio]

$3000 today, will not buy you the same amount or quality of sound that you have. IMHO.

You have to think hard about doing this, replacing what you have with something as satisfying wont be an easy task.

I agree 100%. Even if you stay vintage say like 250TI's those alone will run you $2500.00 plus++++ or L300 Summits, Center DIY made to match, then you still need a sub>? DIY W15GTI-MKII like you have @ 350.00, plus cabinet, or sub 1500 Array.


If the system flips your lid, I say keep it unless you have replacements set up to buy in the works. ?

J/S-S1A :D

[4313B]

The offer is still on the table.Outstanding! Take it!

I would prefer three speakers all the same.Talk John into building you three 14-inch 2-ways. Zilch can get you the parts through his Authorized Service Center friend.

If you're going to run subs then go with the 1200FE instead of the LE14H-3.

[toddalin]

Outstanding! Take it!
Talk John into building you three 14-inch 2-ways. Zilch can get you the parts through his Authorized Service Center friend.

If you're going to run subs then go with the 1200FE instead of the LE14H-3.


Thanks,

At this time I would not consider a 14" as repairs are outrageous and parts are scarce compared to the 12" and 15".

[4313B]

Thanks,

At this time I would not consider a 14" as repairs are outrageous and parts are scarce compared to the 12" and 15".The LE14H-3 is maybe five bucks more than the 1200FE last time I checked and a whole lot less than the 1500AL. It is also much easier to get a hold of with delivery times in two to three months instead of six to nine months.

BTW - I probably shouldn't leak this but there is a new SOTA system on the boards that may or may not see the production line. It is slated to use the LE14H-3 and the concept is killer.

[Zilch]

At this time I would not consider a 14" as repairs are outrageous and parts are scarce compared to the 12" and 15".We're not talking the old stuff here, Todd.... :no:

[Titanium Dome]

The LE14H-3 is maybe five bucks more than the 1200FE last time I checked and a whole lot less than the 1500AL. It is also much easier to get a hold of with delivery times in two to three months instead of six to nine months.

BTW - I probably shouldn't leak this but there is a new SOTA system on the boards that may or may not see the production line. It is slated to use the LE14H-3 and the concept is killer.

Dammit Giskard! :bash: Now I have to change my pants. :uhmmmm:

[RKLee]

ETA: Personally I would keep it.


Thanks,

At this time I would not consider a 14" as repairs are outrageous and parts are scarce compared to the 12" and 15".
I don't understand, why is it that parts for the LE14 are so expensive and rare? Since the LE14 was made by JBL for many years, I would asume that part would be very plentiful and available.

[toddalin]

I don't understand, why is it that parts for the LE14 are so expensive and rare? Since the LE14 was made by JBL for many years, I would asume that part would be very plentiful and available.

Note OCS prices for reconing LE14s. But the list is old and OCS says they can't even get LE14 parts anymore. Also note that they don't even list the LE14-H3.

JBL Speaker Repair Prices

Factory Authorized Service Size / Model
Price

LE25
LE25-4
LE26
LE52, 6, 10, 12, 104H
LE5H, 3, 5, 9, 11, 2105
6" 115H
6" 115H Aftermarket
7" 2168J
8" 117H Aftermarket Only
8" 116A, 116H, 116H-1
8" 116H-2
8" 116H-3
8" 116 All models Aftermarket
8" LE8T
8" 2115A&H, 2108
8" 2118H
8" 2119H
8" D208 Aftermarket Only
10" 127H
10" 125A, 127A Aftermarket Only
10" LE10A Series Aftermarket Only
10" LE10H
10" LE10H-1
10" LE10H Series w/ Aftermarket
10" LE111A
10" LE111H
10" LE111 Series w/ Aftermarket
10" MI-10
10" E,D,K 110 (8ohm & 16ohm)
10" Eon
10" 2169H
12" MI-12
12" D123
12" 128H
12" 2212, 123A
12" 2203
12" 126A
12" 122A, 129H, 128H-1
12" 2213
12" 2020
12" 2022H, MR Series 12
12" M121-8
12" 2214H
12" E,D,K 120 (8ohm & 16ohm)
12" 2202A, H, B, & J
12" 2204H
12" G125-8
12" 2206H & J
12" 2262H, 2262HPL
14" LE14A (White Cone)
14" LE14H (White Cone)
14" LE14H-1 (White Cone)
14" LE14H-1 (Black Cone)
15" 2205A & B, 2225H & J
15" 2220H & J
15" 2226H, J & G
15" 2265H, 2265HPL
15" 136A
15" 2231, 2234, 2235
15" 2255H
15" 2215A, 2215H (8ohm)
15" LE15A, 2215B (16ohm)
15" G135-8
15" G135A-8
15" M151-8
15" E,D,K 130 (8ohm & 16ohm)
15" D130F
15" E,D,K 140 (8ohm & 16ohm)
15" D140F
15" 2032H
15" E145-8 (8ohm & 16ohm)
15" D145-8, K145-8
15" MI-15, MI-15A
15" Eon Recone
18" E155 (8ohm)
18" E155-4 (4ohm Aftermarket Only)
18" 2042H (MR Series 18")
18" 2043G (JRX Series 18")
18" 2044G (MRX Series 18")
18" 2240H, 2240G
18" 2241H, 2241G
18" 2242H
18" 2245H
18" 2268HPL, 2268H
18" K151
035TI
035TIA, 037TI
052TI
2402, 075, 076, 077
2404, 2405
2412 TR Series
2412H-1
2415H
2416H
2417H
2418H, 2418H-1
2425, 2426
2410, LE175
2420, 2421, 2461, 2470
2440
2441
2446, 2447, 2450
2445
2480, 2482, 2485J
Cont 1& Cont 1+ Tweeter
Control 1 Woofer
Control 1+ Woofer
Control 5 Tweeter
Control 5 Woofer

91.00
111.00
79.00
101.00
139.00
102.00
65.00
155.00
85.00
164.00
112.00
100.00
65.00
180.00
186.00
100.00
100.00
105.00
128.00
75.00
95.00
188.00
220.00
95.00
214.00
188.00
95.00
158.00
172.00
117.00
159.00
130.00
258.00
194.00
290.00
252.00
330.00
197.00
204.00
150.00
188.00
152.00
156.00
182.00
188.00
194.00
184.00
138.00
172.00
244.00
244.00
244.00
264.00
156.00
194.00
146.00
179.00
180.00
180.00
208.00
216.00
228.00
196.00
212.00
184.00
198.00
198.00
180.00
180.00
156.00
190.00
258.00
218.00
147.00
211.00
125.00
211.00
149.00
167.00
251.00
169.00
175.00
237.00
209.00
230.00
138.00
107.00
48.00
122.00
112.00
74.00
84.00
184.00
160.00
126.00
88.00
148.00
246.00
246.00
216.00
242.00
186.00
174.00
220.00
28.00
44.00
66.00
32.00
42.00

[Zilch]

LE14's an oddball, actually. Pro never made an equivalent, so the kits are only available through Harman Consumer.

Ask yourself also why no aftermarket supplier makes one. :dont-know

[4313B]

LE14A recone kits are back in stock and reasonably priced.
LE14H-1 recone kits are currently unavailable and 32% more expensive.
JBL Consumer pricing has always been arbitrary.
In any case, we don't really care. The transducer of current interest is the LE14H-3.

[Zilch]

So, Todd, how many drivers have ever required a recone as a result of your use of them in your system?

[toddalin]

So, Todd, how many drivers have ever required a recone as a result of your use of them in your system?

Over the course of say 25 years, I've had over half a dozen of the 15s reconed..., more typically to change them from one type to another (e.g., 2105 ---> 2235 or put paper domes on D130s). In the old days, this used to cost $1/" for most speakers, but JBLs were $2/". (Yes, we used to get D130s reconed for $30. :D )

I've actually bottomed out the 15s in my center channel on a few occasions (typically while it was performing sub duties). Do it often enough, and a recone would be necessary.

Back when I did PAs (~30 years ago), we had several reconed including lots of Altecs, mainly due to use with a Phase Linear 400.

But we all know that the foam surrounds don't last forever. Do the new 14s use a butyl surround, or do they still have the foams?

[RKLee]

.
.
Back when I did PAs (~30 years ago), we had several reconed including lots of Altecs, mainly due to use with a Phase Linear 400.
.
.
Off-topic: Is there problem with Phase Linear 400 amps? Or was it user/human errors, ie oops "I forgot turn down the volume control," or "I didn't know it was on" etc.

[grumpy]

Do a forum search on Flame Linear or Magic Smoke ;)
Folks used to use 'em where I work to drive large shake tables...

[toddalin]

Off-topic: Is there problem with Phase Linear 400 amps? Or was it user/human errors, ie oops "I forgot turn down the volume control," or "I didn't know it was on" etc.

Yes to both.

[sourceoneaudio]

LE14's an oddball, actually. Pro never made an equivalent, so the kits are only available through Harman Consumer.

Ask yourself also why no aftermarket supplier makes one. :dont-know

Yup, someone is missing out on some dough as far as the after market world goes. Didn't Heath Kit make a JBL substitute woofer for early production LE14's? Someone needs to get back on the boat since JBL seems incapable of keeping back stock on their own product. (LE14H-3's) Seems a tad stupid since they are currently using it the 1400 Array. Why is it they can't produce enough to have back stock?????? :banghead: They can manage to keep other items/parts in stock.

J/S-S1A :blink:

[4313B]

Why is it they can't produce enough to have back stock??????Those days of waste are long over. What happens now is we place our orders and they get tacked onto a production run. It can take six months to a year to get what we want. They are going to fill any 1400 Array box before they let raw drivers go. Raw drivers are actually intended for service replacement and not for what we use them for. :D The official word is "Buy a 1400 Array."

[Titanium Dome]

I imagine it's not a high volume production unit. Here in the US it's used in two models (PS1400, 1400 Array) neither of which is burning up the market.
I imagine most PS1400s are going to installs of Synthesis Four, Synthesis Boardroom, and Synthesis HT systems, then to the Performance Series.

It's a bit of an odd duck, yet, a very, very capable speaker with as yet underutilized potential.

[Zilch]

But we all know that the foam surrounds don't last forever. Do the new 14s use a butyl surround, or do they still have the foams?"NBR rubber 1/2 roll."

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11317

[Why is it ME gotta look this stuff up? :banghead: ]

[JBL 4645]

Get three JBL 4675-A up front that will plaster you with bass and those horns are beauties.:applaud:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/3/207883.jpg

[4313B]

[Why is it ME gotta look this stuff up? :banghead: ]I guess because I won't do it anymore and you still feel compelled to do so.

[Robh3606]

[Why is it ME gotta look this stuff up? :banghead: ]

Your kidding right??

Rob:)

[Zilch]

O.K., who's got H-3s here:

RobH, Giskard, John W, Ti Dome, me.

Anybody else?

[sourceoneaudio]

Those days of waste are long over. What happens now is we place our orders and they get tacked onto a production run. It can take six months to a year to get what we want. They are going to fill any 1400 Array box before they let raw drivers go. Raw drivers are actually intended for service replacement and not for what we use them for. :D The official word is "Buy a 1400 Array."

Those days of waste would still be over if they sold the leftovers on e-bay like other manufactures are doing, all controlled. They are opening an e-bay store front and liquidating left overs, and B-stock items. This would be a great avenue for JBL to move gear and drivers, new B-stock blems, and over runs on drivers. It would also be great for people like us who are doing speaker building projects and bringing the dead/vintage back to life.

J/S-S1A :D

[opimax]

Zilch,

Are you asking who has 14-3? I have a set in my 250tis

Mark

[John W]

O.K., who's got H-3s here:

RobH, Giskard, John W, Ti Dome, me.

Anybody else?

UPS has one, somewhere. :banghead: It's probably in pieces so lets not count them.

[Storm]

UPS has one, somewhere.

:rotfl:

[John W]

Todd,
It looks like you have a nice room for a pair of L7s, which to me seem pretty undervalued. You could probably pick up 2 pair for $1200.

Use one on each side, then chop up the other pair. Transform the LE120H pair into a TCB subwoofer to set the TV on and construct a center channel from the remaining components... maybe 708G + 035ti on top of 704G + 708G.
You'd probably have to use the rest of the money to amp-up.

[4313B]

My hesitation in that would be in giving up the dynamics he is probably used to. He'd have to do some evaluations. For HT especially the compression systems can be really nice. I take it you're not real interested in building boxes for other people?

[John W]

It would be different, for sure.
Too bad we all don't live a little closer together. It would sure make it easier to try different configurations out before making a big investment.

[4313B]

True enough.

[jim campbell]

what is it about the system you have that you dont like or is it the fact that you dont have time for it these days?it appears that the price of these things is on an ever upward spiral and while you probably can get out of what you have for a good buck,getting back in may end up costing a lot more down the road,should you start missing them..........

[Titanium Dome]

Todd,
It looks like you have a nice room for a pair of L7s, which to me seem pretty undervalued. You could probably pick up 2 pair for $1200.

Use one on each side, then chop up the other pair. Transform the LE120H pair into a TCB subwoofer to set the TV on and construct a center channel from the remaining components... maybe 708G + 035ti on top of 704G + 708G.
You'd probably have to use the rest of the money to amp-up.

Todd

I agree that you've got the room to do L7s, but I also wonder if the change will be too jarring for you. The only way to find out is to try them of course.

If it helps, I could pull a stored pair out of the dungeon and let you try them.

This afternoon I'm leaving for a few days in Toledo, so I couldn't do this until next week, but let me know if it's something you want to try.

TD

[toddalin]

"NBR rubber 1/2 roll."

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11317

[Why is it ME gotta look this stuff up? :banghead: ]

Thanks Zilch. I saw that while looking into the Array Series.

BTW, does anyone know what three of the Array 14" 3-ways would go for? I think that three K2 may be a little excessive $$$-wise though there are four on e-pay right now.

I know that the K2's don't do loooooow bass (made for the Japanese market). Is the Array any better?

And yes as Giskard notes, we are into a very dynamic sound for the HT.

[SMKSoundPro]

I'm asking the same question.

Is it broke?

If so, go with what you know.

You can start barging all of that up here to the great white north. It looks like it would keep quite warm and toasty through the harsh winter!

Please read with a sing song voice!

Scott.

[Zilch]

BTW, does anyone know what three of the Array 14" 3-ways would go for?I haven't looked in a while, but you'd want the Array Center, no?

[Steve Schell]

Toddalin, everyone seems to be recommending what they use and like, so I'll do likewise. If you are a DIY kind of guy, the $three large$ the fellow is offering would just about fund the drivers and plywood for a full-on front loaded horn system including monster 20Hz. horn sub. Looks like you'd have room for it, too. You are welcome to stop by sometime to hear what such a system can do.

[sourceoneaudio]

I haven't looked in a while, but you'd want the Array Center, no?


I would agree with Zilch. Be kinda hard to lay a 1400 Array on its side, probably wouldn't sound so good.............:blink: Plus if you used a 1400 Array for the center vertical, your screen going to awful high. Like sitting in the front row..........:blink:
I would look at two for the fronts, the Array 8" Three way for the center, and a sub. This is a must for the LFE during moving picture show watching. Sub DIY like before. ??
These suggestions/decisions pending you really sell your gear.

11k on a pair of 1400 Array's was the last rumored price on the forum. Maybe Giskard can clear up the asking retail???
From the website you can find your closest dealer. You asked about price in a previous thread, find one near you and give them a buzz. :bouncy::bouncy:



J/S-S1A :D

[4313B]

You are welcome to stop by sometime to hear what such a system can do.I would not pass that offer up Toddalin.

[toddalin]

I haven't looked in a while, but you'd want the Array Center, no?

No, it would be three similar speakers. I listen to lots of SACD and DVD-Audio and the Array center doesn't really do bass.

[grumpy]

I would not pass that offer up Toddalin.Me either... Steve's setup is quite impressive. -grumpy

five of 'em would be ...:nutz:

[toddalin]

I would agree with Zilch. Be kinda hard to lay a 1400 Array on its side, probably wouldn't sound so good.............:blink: Plus if you used a 1400 Array for the center vertical, your screen going to awful high. Like sitting in the front row..........:blink:
I would look at two for the fronts, the Array 8" Three way for the center, and a sub. This is a must for the LFE during moving picture show watching. Sub DIY like before. ??
These suggestions/decisions pending you really sell your gear.

11k on a pair of 1400 Array's was the last rumored price on the forum. Maybe Giskard can clear up the asking retail???
From the website you can find your closest dealer. You asked about price in a previous thread, find one near you and give them a buzz. :bouncy::bouncy:



J/S-S1A :D

Thanks.

Sub is not a problem. I have a Sunfire Signature and BION, it outsubs the W15GTI/Crown PSA-XH. I could always get a second or another W15GTI or possibly a 1500AL.

The $11K/pair price does put me off though.

It doesn't seem that I could get anything close to what I have for the $3K and I would have to piece together a used system (possibly needing recones = $$$), or build it myself.

I know that if a cabinet maker built them, they would get costly very fast. I think I paid about $450 to have my center/sub channel cabinet constructed when the contractor built my entertainment center. When I built the "keeper" crossovers, the three set me back over $400 just for parts.

This would almost need to be turn-key as there is no way we will give up our entertainment system for ~3-6 months during cabinet construction.

Thanks guys.

[sourceoneaudio]

No, it would be three similar speakers. I listen to lots of SACD and DVD-Audio and the Array center doesn't really do bass.

You could still use that Array center either full range, or 70hz and up have to see what sounds better. Then add a center channel sub, or use this Array the Array 800, with a sub also. This is what I did in my system. I used one 10 same driver as the side speakers, also incorporated the same horn as the sides use. and then I added a center channel sub. Works most excellent.:D Then I would recommend placing the large sub in a corner, or in the rear of the room by the seating area. (end table)

Food for thought.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=800%20ARRAY%20BG&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=PTS

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S1S-EX&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

J/S-S1A :D

[Zilch]

No, it would be three similar speakers. I listen to lots of SACD and DVD-Audio and the Array center doesn't really do bass.I am obviously unclear on the concept.

Those don't send bass to the sub?

[mech986]

Toddalin,

I've got the following if you would like to consider them.

4333B - just need to be restuffed with fiberglass
4331 (Studio Monitor two way like L200 in Utility Grey Box - almost matches your decor and you can add the 2405/077 for an L300/4333)
6 x L300 cabinets with components to populate them all. L300 R - C - L, that could be a nice setup and not too tall.

There are many possibilities...

Regards,

Bart

[Robh3606]

Those don't send bass to the sub?

They can it depends on how you have the bass management set-up for your main 5 or 7. The LFE can be active on DTS/DD at anytime. It all depends on how it's been produced.

Rob:)

[toddalin]

I am obviously unclear on the concept.

Those don't send bass to the sub?

It's just not the same. :(

[toddalin]

Toddalin,

I've got the following if you would like to consider them.

4333B - just need to be restuffed with fiberglass
4331 (Studio Monitor two way like L200 in Utility Grey Box - almost matches your decor and you can add the 2405/077 for an L300/4333)
6 x L300 cabinets with components to populate them all. L300 R - C - L, that could be a nice setup and not too tall.

There are many possibilities...

Regards,

Bart

Sounds nice. How much are we talking for three L300s? Can you e-mail me prices and conditions?

Thanks

[sourceoneaudio]

I am obviously unclear on the concept.

Those don't send bass to the sub?


DVD audio is 5.1 Discrete. Usually DTS format, and sometimes 96/24 bit depending on the recording. Some SACD's recordings can either be bought in a 2 channel only mix, or a 5.1 mix. Some SACD's have both formats recorded on one disc. So yes, they do send LFE to the subs. Only way to hear it via Digital Coax, Bitstream, or I-Link.

J/S-S1A :D

[hjames]

DVD audio is 5.1 Discrete. Usually DTS format, and sometimes 96/24 bit depending on the recording. Some SACD's recordings can either be bought in a 2 channel only mix, or a 5.1 mix. Some SACD's have both formats recorded on one disc. So yes, they do send LFE to the subs. Only way to hear it via Digital Coax, Bitstream, or I-Link.

J/S-S1A :D

Or Optical ...
Mine has discrete outputs as well as Coax and Optical

[sourceoneaudio]

Or Optical ...

That is what Bitstream is. When you turn on the Bit Stream out on your DVD player, you are turning on the Fiber Optic output. Thank you for adding that Heather for those who do not know. ;)

J/S-S1A :D

[edgewound]

That is what Bitstream is. When you turn on the Bit Stream out on your DVD player, you are turning on the Fiber Optic output. Thank you for adding that Heather for those who do not know. ;)

J/S-S1A :D

Digital co-ax and Optical outputs are both Bitstream.

Not all component players have both types of outputs....some have only one of either type.

[sourceoneaudio]

Digital co-ax and Optical outputs are both Bitstream.

Not all component players have both types of outputs....some have only one of either type.

Oh' and I forgot the next generation HDMI which handles Video and Audio with no DAC conversion. Keeps the audio side all digital same as i-link.

I did and install a while back where the receiver and the DVD player were i-link compatible, I switched it, the DVD player from Fiber Optic to i-link for the audio transmission, what a difference. Talk about CLEAN!!!! It was amazing, and you could definitely tell a difference, especially in the low end response.
Yamaha RX-Z9
Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi i-link

J/S-S1A