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richluvsound
04-08-2007, 11:06 AM
I'm hoping the members in Germany can help. Iv'e been looking for amplification for my soon to be completed 4345's. I really fancy Bryston. I have found a dealer in Germany www.hifi-lang.de. These guys have what i'm looking for.Does anyone have experience with these people. I think there in Berlin. Is anyone close.I'm thinking of flying from London to do the deal.It would be nice to hook up and have someone to help with the language DRINKS AND A NICE MEAL MY TREAT.!!!!!!!

Rich:)

Hofmannhp
04-08-2007, 11:19 AM
Hi Richard,

"Fangio" is in Berlin and as far as I know him, I'm sure he will help you.

HP

Fangio
04-09-2007, 01:36 AM
...for my soon to be completed 4345's... I really fancy Bryston. I have found a dealer in Germany www.hifi-lang.de (http://www.hifi-lang.de). These guys have what i'm looking for. Does anyone have experience with these people. I think there in Berlin...Rich:)

Sure I would be pleased to be of any assistance for LHF members in Berlin but what makes you think this company is here? Their impressum/contact info (http://www.heimkino.de/impressum/index.php) says 67059 Ludwigshafen - 625km away..?

google map (http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&hl=de&saddr=Berlin&daddr=67059+Ludwigshafen&layer=&sll=50.999929,10.92041&sspn=5.781327,14.326172&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=6)

richluvsound
04-09-2007, 01:58 AM
whats up , don't you like a good walk? ........Is Guido close?
I'll google berlin+bryston.
Rich:blink:

Fangio
04-09-2007, 02:22 AM
Just wanted to state that Ludwigshafen isn't around the corner for me, and to make sure we're talking about the same company. Actually, other members live much closer to them, HP included. ;)

Again Richard, if you find a good deal in Berlin, I'm ready to help.

Guido
04-09-2007, 02:56 AM
Richard,

the problem is the following:

Bryston is distributed by Sun Audio in Munich. I refuse to contact them as they are arrogant people and I will be in fight with them after 5 minutes talk.
You can contact them but 100% sure they will ask you to contact your UK dealer.
There is another distributor for Austria. Musikparadies near Vienna.

None of them is around the corner for me.

That's the problem with these "exclusive" components.

Try to contact AVM (http://www.avm-audio.eu/) or SAC (http://www.sac.de/). Their amps are better than Brystons and I will be happy to assist a deal with these friendly people.

richluvsound
04-09-2007, 07:10 AM
Hey Guido,
I'm not going to ask about ........... ! You have'nt answered my emails . I figured you are really busy with making a crust.
SAC look interesting.I'll call them tomorrow. Should i mention you sent me ?
They look like mono blocks . You should know all about them...... Mr PassLabs .
Do you think It will sound as good as bi-amped ? The Brystons would set me back 6000 euros. Could i get pass diy for that kind of money.
I would rather just pay for the finished article .I need to get some painting done so not much time for learning i'm afraid.I will definately buy your side of the channel . 20 to 30 % cheaper your side.;)

macaroonie
04-09-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm almost certain there is a distributor in the UK although I do not know who.
Failing that contact Bryston direct and see what they will do for you --- nothing ventured. You will however pay a big whack in duty vat shipping but the starting price is low compared to UK. IMHO bryston amps are a bit ' crisp ' and your speakers will expose this ruthlessly.
Given that you have 4000 ish my suggestion would be to hunt down some vintage Levinson. ML10a pre approx 1k toss the phono stage if you dont use a tt and you get an extra high level input. As i remember it you are splitting the crossover so you will need 2 stereo power amps. 3k should get you 2 ML9s or slightly better. JBL and ML go together like bangers and mash and I think you will find that the factory uses ML extensively.
At the very least go hear an ML setup oh and by the way the pre's take a good couple of days to settle so your dealer should have it on full time. Do not judge a cold unit - I cant stress this too much.
An alternative if you want new I have been very impressed with the recent offerings by Rotel. Same applies with warm up but less so than with ML
Agoood rummage around some of the s/h brokers in the uk should turn up what you need .

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mark-Levinson-331-Power-Amp_W0QQitemZ290103073083QQcategoryZ14973QQtcZphot oQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No afilliation. Best of luck :)

richluvsound
04-09-2007, 12:21 PM
Hi Mac,
i hope its ok to call you that. Thanks for your input. You make a good point about the crispness . That is something I'm trying to get rid off by building 4345's .I felt the 2122 would warm up the mids a bit .Levinson is nice kit. I shall find a dealer down here and see if they will demo for me.
Is Peebles near you ?

Rich:hmm:

Chas
04-09-2007, 12:37 PM
Hi Rich, assuming you are bi-amping, (highly recommended for 4345's, by the way;)) you certainly don't need much juice for the high pass section.

If you're not interested in tubes, Pass Labs 30 or 60 watt class A monoblocks would be nice with a Bryston or other similar amp on the bottom.

I like Bryston for LF, but prefer something with a little more finesse on the MF/HF/UHF. I am using large tube monoblocks usually in triode mode capable of about 60-70 watts per channel and they are PLENTY!:)

richluvsound
04-09-2007, 12:50 PM
Hi Chas,
there is a conrad johnson on english ebay at the moment . I also have a mate in cornwall . bigearsaudio (google and see what you think)perhaps there is something you could recommend.If Mac is on the money with the crisp thing it should add a little snap to the 2245, dont you think. that is, if by "crisp" he means its fast.

Rich

Chas
04-09-2007, 01:20 PM
Hi Chas,
there is a conrad johnson on english ebay at the moment . I also have a mate in cornwall . bigearsaudio (google and see what you think)perhaps there is something you could recommend.If Mac is on the money with the crisp thing it should add a little snap to the 2245, dont you think. that is, if by "crisp" he means its fast.

Rich

Crisp? Verging on harsh sounding? :dont-know Maybe Mac can elaborate what he meant.

Others here (like Scott) have had way more experience with different amps on big JBL's but in my opinion, a good solid and reliable 200-300 watt amp will drive the 2245's very nicely. I use an old Nikko Alpha 450, a low end Japenese amp from the eighties and it does the job just fine. If you want to spend big dollars on Levinson (another Harman dvision, BTW) then great. I'd look at Crown too.

My point is that I would focus more on the drive above 290 Hz. This is where quality of amp sound is much more crucial. Either Conrad Johnson or Audio Research would be a nice choice too.:bouncy:

Beware that no matter how nice the power amplifier is, the limiting factor may well end up being the sound quality of your crosssover.

macaroonie
04-09-2007, 07:00 PM
Means in this context somewhat sharp or even edgy. Other opinions re Bryston in the bass are true - plenty of weight / slam authority I would not argue at all but hf ? Peebles is not near me at all in fact it is a full day trip there and back. That amp will run the whole shebang with aplomb. I have some extensive experience with this. As and when your dosh allows buy another and spit the x/o.
I had a further look there are a few No. 28 pre amps on the go at 1k ish
Total deal is 3k ish and you are up and running with enough change in your pocket for a lovely trip to the Oktobefest in Munich. mmmmmmm
I worked 25 years in Hi Fi and have had exposure to huge numbers of products, a luxury you may think but sometimes a chore because so many products fall so short when push comes to shove. JBL seldom did that for me and although they have made some dogs they have made many unforgetable classics ( you have one )
The ethic at JBL is the same as exists at ML .( engineering dept ) This stuff is the business !!!
You will never look back my friend.

PS A pal of mine who is a Magazine reader runs some Appogee speakers and against my advice went and spent 2k on a Krell line pre and a further 1.5k on a Tom somebody phono stage made from plastic. Despite my best efforts the whole rig hummmmms ( tech ground / balanced cable etc ) not badly but enough to smear the image. 3.5 wasted the only good piece he bought was a Rotel 150w power which actually does the trick with the Appogee.
However every time I walk into his sound room I just know he could have had so much more for less If I am wrong you will get your money back easy peasy you will have noticed that ML residual values are high and for good reason. I would give you 1200 for a clean ML11/12 pls124 tomorrow morning and that is about what they cost new in the 80's

No Affiliation.

Ian Mackenzie
04-10-2007, 06:48 AM
Hi Rich,

My two bobs worth.

The 4345 are basically a piston range system all the way with very low intermodulation distortion.

As a result they "accurate" and have surprising micro dynamics and resolving power to match.

But put shit in and you will get shit out. This can be a good and a bad thing.

What you want is the resolving power but not to make everything except a handful of recording unplayable. The speakers are not amp picky as such but they seem to really elevate running class A with plenty of bias. A hint of warmth and a really smooth & clean top end seems to help the horn and slot make it into real Hifi as opposed to another hard sounding monitor.

The impediance of the system dips quite low in the mid range and this accounts in my mind as to why these 4 ways sound hard on the lot of amps.

My suggestion is use a modest class A amp, valve (Cary) or Pass Aleph 30 or 60) on the mid and horn section and big Crown on the bottom end.

There is an interesting firm that makes a nice active crossover and class A amps combined in Germany. I will try and remember who is it. They were featured in AudioExpress a while back.

Ian

richluvsound
04-10-2007, 12:34 PM
Hi Ian ,
do you know the pass labs 0 . mono blocks 75 watts rms ?There are some pre-owned in the UK for 3000.
Rich:)

Ian Mackenzie
04-10-2007, 03:20 PM
Yes,

That was an early version of the Aleph with three stages.
http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/old%20product/a0man.pdf


I think its seriously too much money for a used amp. As you mentioned there are some great diy clones and given the price differential its worth looking at.

Here is an indication of what to pay US$ but he will not sell outside the USA as I understand it. http://www.marksammut.com/List.html

Talk to me off line about it.

macaroonie
04-10-2007, 04:12 PM
I'm with Ian re Pass I'm a fan of Threshold as was. I lived and worked in Sacramento for a few years and met Nelson on many occasions. One of his partners in crime went to ML. You are in good hands with either of these brands. ( and Pass Labs ) Ian is totally on the ball re the behaviour of your speakers. For me I would buy that ML power amp tomorrow. The reason is this it is about the sound of nothing ie. when nothing is supposed to be there nothing is. velvet blackness. You have to go and listen but for me I have absolutely no doubt in this.

Andyoz
04-11-2007, 07:19 AM
Rich,

Getting back to Bryston, I am confused why you think you need to go to Germany to source them. Their amps regularly change hands for 50% RRP on the UK second hand market (I think the loudspeaker maufacturer PMC is the UK agent).

I purchased my pristine 2 year old 4B SST for 1400 from this site:

http://www.adverts.hififorsale.com/latest.asp

If you search Bryston there are a couple showing. There haven't been many in the last 6 months so some more are probably due to come up (there were about 3 on the market when I bought mine).

I like Bryston, if for no other reason than they have the guts to offer a 20 year warranty (and not afraid to honour it - they wouldn't last 5 mins in the pro-audio market if they started refusing warranty claims)

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 09:08 AM
:applaud: thanks awfully old bean. That is top site. Piss off ebay ... get stuffed paypal !
Is that where you saw the K2 ?
Rich

Andyoz
04-11-2007, 09:46 AM
:applaud: thanks awfully old bean. That is top site. Piss off ebay ... get stuffed paypal !
Is that where you saw the K2 ?
Rich

Ah, I shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag. You will not believe the deals that come up on that site. It is frequented by serial upgraders who seem to let top kit go for peanuts to move onto the next big thing.

I didn't see the K2's there first (they were eBay) but my 250Ti's came from there.

By the way....piss off away from the 120Ti's, they're (almost) mine.

p.s. what model Bryston are you after...did you see the "Wanted" add listed on that website? well that's a mate of mine and he's had a few replies with sellers of 4B's. He is really picky about colour/handles so has rejected a few. I have asked him for details of his "rejects" - can send them to you if you're interested?

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 12:05 PM
actually anything with that kind of pedigree 400 - 600 rms .I want something for the LF. HF will be Pass or SAC . I've thrown the gauntlet down and Guido and Ian seem to have some really good solutions up their sleeves. I bloody love this forum.Even though I know next to nothing about E.E. no-one exracts the urine. Just great blokes helping eachother out. HUMANITY --- not much around these days.

I have six 2235 recone kits ! Thats why I suggested we build you some 4430's . Its the 4355 next time for me . But first quality power and source.Mind you, those l20i's are beautiful:jawdrop: Your lucky I'm bloody skint .thanks to Guido and charge -coupling
Rich

Andyoz
04-11-2007, 12:26 PM
actually anything with that kind of pedigree 400 - 600 rms

That puts you in 7B territory. I think the 7B is single channel (600W) whereas the 4B is two channel (250W)

There was a 7B on eBay that went for 800 a few weeks ago. My mate and I were both watching it but there was something slightly dodgy about the auction though...not your usual scam but something not right. Someone may got a real bargain though we were wrong.

Here's some used examples in dealers:

http://www.loissoftware.co.uk/progressiveaudio/used_stock_results.asp?x=1&lastpage=&qp=2 (pair of 7B's)
http://www.mountainsnow.co.uk/bargains.asp?listby=manf&whichprod=Bryston (9B THX - 3 channel!!)
http://www.badaweb.co.uk/showsearch.php?site=bada&vehicleid=85 (9B THX again)

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 01:35 PM
Andy,


are you sure thats not each side 250 watts per chan ?


cheer,Rich

Andyoz
04-11-2007, 02:12 PM
Yep, that's what I meant - 250W/ch.

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 02:23 PM
I thought rms was the total output , both channels combined.
250 watts per 2245 is plenty . would'nt you say. Or am i completely naff .
Rich:(

mcds
04-11-2007, 02:28 PM
There is an interesting firm that makes a nice active crossover and class A amps combined in Germany. I will try and remember who is it. They were featured in AudioExpress a while back.

Ian

Hi Ian,

very interested; please give your little grey cells a push!

Andyoz
04-11-2007, 02:39 PM
250 watts per 2245 is plenty . would'nt you say. Or am i completely naff .
Rich:(

I'd agree.. I think the 4B is an excellent all rounder. Powerful enough to drive the large JBL's but not such a beast that you're afraid to leave it powered up all day.

macaroonie
04-11-2007, 03:21 PM
I'm standing my ground on this one. :(

jim campbell
04-11-2007, 05:09 PM
I'm hoping the members in Germany can help. Iv'e been looking for amplification for my soon to be completed 4345's. I really fancy Bryston. I have found a dealer in Germany www.hifi-lang.de (http://www.hifi-lang.de). These guys have what i'm looking for.Does anyone have experience with these people. I think there in Berlin. Is anyone close.I'm thinking of flying from London to do the deal.It would be nice to hook up and have someone to help with the language DRINKS AND A NICE MEAL MY TREAT.!!!!!!!

Rich:)why germany? as i understand it bryston has ties with pmc which i believe are based in britain.let me know if i can be of any assistance as bryston is made in canada.its a mere 1200 mile hike from here

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 06:44 PM
Mac,

The Bryston will eventually be an upgrade for the studio system, but in the mean time it
will run the LF on the 4345's and either SAC mono blocks or Pass Labs for the HF. And then, When I have refurbed the 4435's I'll get another bryston to bi-amp them and something else for the LF on the 4345's. I like the 20 year warranty bryston offer, they are designed to be worked hard. I would like to keep the 4345 system just for chilling and not for work. The other consideration is the new home, the 4345's will go there.
I have 4 grand .I'm trying figure out how to spend on it two systems .
Rich;)

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 07:07 PM
why germany? as i understand it bryston has ties with pmc which i believe are based in britain.let me know if i can be of any assistance as bryston is made in canada.its a mere 1200 mile hike from here

I have seen new Brystons in Germany for 30% less than here. Thats a lot of money. To Make things even more complicated ; I was offered a job in Canada yesterday. I could be there within the year if I decide to take it . But , because I have been away for so long I'll have to apply as a newbie . Hey, are 4345's classified as hand luggage on air canada ?
Rich

macaroonie
04-11-2007, 07:18 PM
Your logic is good and a 20 year warranty is awsome but.... i used to sell both from the same establishment. I' m sticking with my recommendation. Solid.
And that is from someone who likes Bryston a lot. Go listen.

macaroonie
04-11-2007, 07:32 PM
Watts Watts yeah yeah those numbers are truly meaningless. Sorry to keep banging the drum BUT ML2 at 25 wpc will toast just about anything that has ever been made including your toast since they are almost pure class A. Check out what these bad boys sell for and they are nearly 40 yo..
Since it seems you have a pro usage requirement QSC or Crown with a sweety for your domestic top end. I repeat I am not anti Bryston but not with these speakers. LOL

richluvsound
04-11-2007, 08:43 PM
Mac ,
your'll have to forgive me . I have a good ear and thats it. This is a whole new level for me and I'm grateful for your input .I will go with the Pass labs sooner or later . I found a dealer that will lend me an x 150 to try out.
Its just such a big chunk of cash for me to drop on a whim . The 4345's were'nt cheap to build but i did'nt really notice it that much as it has been spread over a few months.
Rich

jim campbell
04-11-2007, 10:32 PM
what kind of work do you do that requires a system like that?if you are coming over this way id hold off on the amp and take advantage of the market here.there are several good brands made here and even more stateside.

Chas
04-12-2007, 09:37 AM
250 watts per 2245 is plenty . would'nt you say. Or am i completely naff .
Rich:(


:yes: Plenty.

Andyoz
04-13-2007, 07:04 AM
I may have found some second hand 4B's that may interest..will pm

Another Bryston trick I have seen is to use a 5-channel 9B SST and use four of the channels to bi-amp a stereo pair. It's leave one channel unused but still more efficient than buying/running two separate amps. That's what I would do if I was serious about bi-amping (which I am not). I think there are 3-channel and 5-channel variants of the 9B, don't know the full story though.

There's an ex-demo one here but I have seen them go for 2k second hand (that's serious watts per ):

http://www.rayleighhifi.com/specialspage.asp?first=false&rcrds=All&pagetype=specialspage

Chas
04-13-2007, 07:57 AM
http://www.bryston.ca/

Andyoz
04-13-2007, 08:05 AM
I see they do 2, 3, 4 and 5 channel versions of the 9B. Only ever seen 3 and 5 channel versions on the market though.

It's "only" rated at 140W/channel so I guess can be thought of as a multi-channel version of the 3B.

Ian Mackenzie
04-16-2007, 05:02 AM
:yes: Plenty.

Depends on your applicaton. For home use 250 watts is plenty.

The quality of those watts, particularly the First Watt are cucial.

If you are proposing to drive them in full passive mode as I do sometimes the amp needs to be a high current design and a very good one. On a really nice amp it works well, otherwise biamp.

But don't fall for the trap of using a hi powered amp (mid fi or PA amp) on the mids and highs and expect it to sound good at low levels. It will probably sound tinny and aggressive and you won't want to sit there for too long. Put shit in and you'll get shit out. Plain and simple.

These 4 way systems using the 2307/2308 devices seem to have been awarded certain reputation over the years by certain people who really had and still have no f$%^&*# idea about anything much. Unfortunately most people either don't or can't afford a high performance amp.

Apples ain't Oranges.

The fact that the 2307/2308 is not a bi radial with even power response means you can't rely on the room environment to soften and mellow the sound with the wider coverage that bi radials provide. The proportion of directly radiated sound reaching your ears from the 2307/2308 is much larger.

Bi radials also have the lower end EQd back to buggery by 10 db or more and that means any distortion has non linear representation with frequency whereas the 2307/2308 provides a linear representation of distortion because its not Eq'd.

Thus in the 1-4 Khertz area where the ear is quite sensitive there is a much higher likelyhood of hearing 2nd, 3rd and high harmonics of distortion out of the amp if its not well behaved.

You really need to try out a couple of really good amps to understand and appreciate this.

I never believed it until I move over to class A about 7 years ago and started using a JL Hood amp I built and later the bigger and more powerful Pass Labs amps. Its like sorting the chalk from the cheese with the micro dynamics of theses systems. It really is.

Edit,

I found a better (groovy) picture to post so here it is.

richluvsound
04-16-2007, 08:09 AM
pass labs seem to be favourate and for all the right reasons. Cost should'nt really matter at this point. I have spent too much, of both time and money. I would'nt buy an Aston Martin and then convert it to run on L.P.G.Besides , they run really hot,so I'll save money on the heating bill.
Rich