JBL Speaker Cable! [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

coherent_guy

03-28-2007, 11:07 AM

I came across this on the JBL Home Japan website, not one but two kinds of JBL speaker cable. Check it out here:

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/product/jblhome/jsc1000_jsc500.html

I can't read the japanese but the english titles and the pictures give some clues. Is this cable a combo of copper and silver or silver plated wire? The "alternate spiral stranding" is similar to what Cardas calls their "cross" cable structure. The multi gauge conductor, a cable composed of multiple strands of varying gauge wire, is a style used by many manufactuers, such as Cardas, Kimber, and Monster Cable.

So, what do you all think? The prices are 1200 and 600 yen, which is $10.27 and $5.14, that I would think is the per meter or foot price. Think we'll see this in the US market? Would you give this cable a try? Does anyone have any? I'd like to check it out. Is it possible to purchase things from the JBL Japan website?

edgewound

03-28-2007, 11:15 AM

It's your money. If you can hear a difference....go for it. If you think you hear a difference, take a break....then listen again.

Harman Japan is not above separating you from your money to further their cause.

boputnam

03-28-2007, 11:42 AM

If you think you hear a difference, take a break....then listen again.:rotfl:

The "alternate spiral stranding" ......looks like what us plebes call (dual) "twisted pair". Always preferable to side-by-side (the other choice shown...)

richluvsound

03-28-2007, 02:58 PM

:rotfl:

...looks like what us plebes call (dual) "twisted pair". Always preferable to side-by-side (the other choice shown...)
Hi bo,
I know nothing about about cables , so any insight would be very useful.
And thank you for your post on my Bryston questions .I must admit I'm leaning towards QSC . I can buy both QSC's new for what the same price as one used Bryston 4 ssd. Which models should I look out for ?

Regards,Rich :)

coherent_guy

03-28-2007, 03:01 PM

:rotfl:

...looks like what us plebes call (dual) "twisted pair". Always preferable to side-by-side (the other choice shown...)

uhh, you might want to put your glasses on, or actually look at the second picture. NOT that it matters to you anyway. Enjoy!

jim campbell

03-28-2007, 03:04 PM

Hi bo,
I know nothing about about cables , so any insight would be very useful.
And thank you for your post on my Bryston questions .I must admit I'm leaning towards QSC . I can buy both QSC's new for what the same price as one used Bryston 4 ssd. Which models should I look out for ?

Regards,Rich :)the bitter taste of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of the low price..............i dont mean to dis the qsc but i would audition both befofe you spend your hard earned sterling.imho the brystons are worth it.if i didnt believe that id sell you mine

boputnam

03-28-2007, 03:39 PM

uhh, you might want to put your glasses on, or actually look at the second picture. (see attached - maybe this will help...)

NOT that it matters to you anyway. What...?

I know nothing about about cables , so any insight would be very useful. Twisted pair is recommended for RF rejection - near as good as shielded...

the bitter taste of poor quality lasts much longer than the sweetness of the low price...A truism...!

louped garouv

03-28-2007, 03:48 PM

Twisted pair is recommended for RF rejection - near as good as shielded...

I can attest to that....

had a real bad RF issue when I went with an active crossover, got some (pretty cheap) twisted pair cable, problem cleared right up....

coherent_guy

03-28-2007, 05:59 PM

Bo,

While what you have posted is true, it has nothing to do with what I posted regarding the description of the cable on the JBL Japan website. I have included the second picture below.

If you visited the JBL Japan site and the page describing the speaker cables, you could see what they call "Alternating Spiral Stranding", which can be seen in the picture below. Each layer or level of strands within an individual conductor is wound in the opposite direction of the one below it. As the next layer of individual strands are wound over the previous layer, the direction of the winding is changed, so the wires in each layer cross over each other at an angle, almost if not perpendicular, rather than parallel to each other.

If we number the four individual images in the picture below from left to right, one, two, three, and four, images two and four show the winding geometry of the layers of strands. I don't think it is difficult to see the changing direction in the layers of wires. Unfortunately, I don't have a translation of the text in Japanese that accompanies the English title of "Alternate Spiral Stranding", which I imagine would describe the structure and its purpose. This type of winding geometry is used by Cardas and by Shunyata, and is not a twisted pair or "star quad" design, as named by Canare. As can be seen, this has nothing to do with a twisted pair, but describes the lay of the strands within the individual conductors, four of which are used in the JSC1000, a twisted pair design, and two in the JSC600, a parallel pair.

I hope this clears things up.

boputnam

03-28-2007, 06:17 PM

...what you have posted is true...:yes:

I hope this clears things up.No, I got that part. But, being a self professed plebe, as I stated, I focussed on pictures 1 and 2 of things that I could understand, and which I think matter - that being twisted pair vs side-by-side ("zip cord").

There's been a number of threads here about cable "technology" - such as What can cables do...? or even the Slicing the BS... thread. Maybe this should have been added to them (deleting, of course, my obviously superfluous and insane posts...)?

It's your money. If you can hear a difference....go for it. If you think you hear a difference, take a break....then listen again.This is quite sane, and should be a sticky.

I'll tell you what - JBL had some hoses at CES 2007 running to the Everest II. Either they really mean it, or really wanna sell them. Dunno which. I'm too embarrassed to show you mine... :o:

scott fitlin

03-28-2007, 06:39 PM

Well, in one of the Drew Daniels articles he stated wire is wire. I actually like ordinary wire myself, but, these days assoteric wires make an item more saleable.

JBL does have a marketing dept. Marketing knows they gotta do certain things to sell the goods.

coherent_guy

03-28-2007, 08:56 PM

:rotfl:

...looks like what us plebes call (dual) "twisted pair". Always preferable to side-by-side (the other choice shown...)

I simply described what JBL Japan calls their Alternate Spiraling Strand. I thought you called it dual twisted pair. You later described dual twisted pair. I said your description of dual twisted pair was correct, but not what I was referring to.

:yes:

No, I got that part. But, being a self professed plebe, as I stated, I focussed on pictures 1 and 2 of things that I could understand, and which I think matter - that being twisted pair vs side-by-side ("zip cord").

There's been a number of threads here about cable "technology" - such as What can cables do...? or even the Slicing the BS... thread. Maybe this should have been added to them (deleting, of course, my obviously superfluous and insane posts...)?

This is quite sane, and should be a sticky.

I'll tell you what - JBL had some hoses at CES 2007 running to the Everest II. Either they really mean it, or really wanna sell them. Dunno which. I'm too embarrassed to show you mine... :o:

I was merely clarifying my post and the apparent misunderstanding, no other implication was made by me. I had never seen a speaker cable made by JBL, I thought it was interesting and that others might find it to be as well.

coherent_guy

03-28-2007, 09:04 PM

JBL does have a marketing dept. Marketing knows they gotta do certain things to sell the goods.

I read recently in the forum somewhere that the diamond pattern surround found on compression driver diaphragms was a marketing thing only, or a quick fix for a FR problem. That's a shame if so. Or is it a marketing thing now to say that the diamond surround is no good compared to the new and improved one, whatever it may be?

Mr. Widget

03-28-2007, 09:30 PM

I read recently in the forum somewhere that the diamond pattern surround found on compression driver diaphragms was a marketing thing only, or a quick fix for a FR problem. That's a shame if so. Or is it a marketing thing now to say that the diamond surround is no good compared to the new and improved one, whatever it may be? Unlike cables, surrounds are part of a mechanical system. Change the surround and you change the performance... JBL pioneered the diamond surround, some have copied it and others have not.

According to some engineers it is effective at controlling secondary resonances of the diaphragm to extend the higher frequency response as JBL claims but it also adds smaller less noticeable break up modes. JBL uses the diamond surround because they believe it is the best compromise in diaphragm design. These are real engineering issues... not BS and marketing hype.

Widget

Rolf

03-28-2007, 11:02 PM

I was merely clarifying my post and the apparent misunderstanding, no other implication was made by me. I had never seen a speaker cable made by JBL, I thought it was interesting and that others might find it to be as well.

And you are right. "Others" find this very interesting, but as you probably know every attempt to say that "wires make a difference in sound" will be killed by some here, as well as on other forums.

If JBL uses these inside their speakers I trust them in that it has a purpose, and making the sound better. What I do not know is if these cables is suitable from amp to speaker. If they are they are a true find for only $10 a meter (about 3ft). The ones I use now is much much more costly.

boputnam

03-29-2007, 07:28 AM

I simply described what JBL Japan calls their Alternate Spiraling Strand. Yea, I have never seen that before - nor heard it so far as I know. Makes me wonder what the electrons think about all the fuss. Another reminder of things JBL markets in Japan, and not here... :(

coherent_guy

04-01-2007, 09:00 PM

Another reminder of things JBL markets in Japan, and not here... :(

How true, not everything is smoke and mirrors on the JBL Japan website and Japanese marketplace. Maybe JBL marketed a speaker cable in Japan because they felt it was necessary for some reason, such as credibility in that market, whether or not they believe in cable differences. I've heard on this forum that in the Everest demo's some fancy speaker cable was used. But I heard no comments about that.

Consider, would it bother you to see 18 gauge zip cord between the Mark Levinson amp and the Everest? Perhaps JBL felt compelled to use cable like they did. Actually, I can see one reason why the cable industry may have started, it bothered some people to be connecting their $10k speakers to their $5k amp with $5 worth of cable. Kinda like putting $200/four tires on a $150k Ferrari.

I do believe that many out there are thinking NO and Who Cares in response to my questions. That is fine, I have friends that think the same way. I also think I have heard small differences in cables. I know you feel it is all bunk, quite plainly, but none of the cable heads find it necessary to say you are crazy. Does it bother you all that much to see cable discussions in this forum? Do you then become part of the lunatic fringe too?

You know, there is a trend in the audio hobby that is accepted by many in this forum that I think is BS. But I don't feel it necessary to say that. Can you let some of us have our "delusions" in peace? Thank You...

PS: Hey Rolf, I'll discuss the cables with you and whomever else in this thread soon! :) :blah:

MJC

04-02-2007, 08:53 AM

I know speaker cables can make a difference, but they don't have to be expensive. Last month I decided to experiment with some different brands of cable.
I bought a small roll of Monster XP (looks like regular zip cord with a dielectric). I connected between the Citation 19 power amp and my mirror, CC L212s. It made the highs really harsh, totally unlike how the L212s should sound.
So then I bought Belden 5000 12ga from Blue Jeans Cable. The belden cable is a twisted pair. That dialed the sound right in, got rid of the harsh highs and was also better than the original wires I had been using before I tried the XP.
I got 60ft of the Belden 5000 for only $24, way cheaper/ft than the XP.
After using part of the 60ft on the L212s, the rest on the front 3 PT800s in the HT.

Steve Schell

04-02-2007, 10:53 AM

It looks like the JBL cables will be going head to head with the products of Mothra Research in the Japanese marketplace. May the best cable prevail!

http://www.meter.com/mothra/index.html

grumpy

04-02-2007, 12:33 PM

"Obviously the turtle Gamera can't be far behind..."

moldyoldy

04-02-2007, 12:51 PM

Gorzirra has farren and can't get up! Krick, ret him have it with the Crapper!

coherent_guy

04-02-2007, 01:06 PM

Ahh, the epic battle continues...

MJC and Rolf:

MJC, Interesting observation. I've never been a fan of the cheaper Monster Cable products, which XP qualifies as. Some cables made by them I have don't look shiny when the insulation is stripped, and others looked plain corroded. This does not apply to all Monster products.

I like and use twisted pair cables of sane price, such as four and eight conductor speaker cable by Gepco, available from AVCable.com:

http://www.avcables.com/

Nice for biwiring an biamping, or very heavy conductors. Canare also makes a twisted pair speaker cable, as well as their well know Star Quad line level cable. I noticed that PE has a house brand cable now, a four and eight conductor twisted pair(s).

Rolf, thanks for your support! I'm a little confused though about your post. You said the JBL cable was used internally and not between amp and speaker. How do you know about that? I have no information about that, please let me know.

I wonder where the JBL speaker cable is manufactured. I wish I had a translation of the details of that web page. One of the pictures of the cable reminds me of ones done by Monster Cable with their products. Otherwise, the cable does not resemble any product of theirs I am aware of. Any chance anyone has used this cable?

MJC

04-02-2007, 01:17 PM

clmrt

04-02-2007, 01:21 PM

I got my XP from Rat Shak when it was on sale for $9/25 foot pair. Seems OK, but I like my 6' Cat5 - simply twisted the same-color conductors together. 12' at Home Depot was $3.58.

Seems JBL wants in on the "supplies" end of the business?

Rolf

04-03-2007, 08:16 AM

Ahh, the epic battle continues...

Rolf, thanks for your support! I'm a little confused though about your post. You said the JBL cable was used internally and not between amp and speaker. How do you know about that? I have no information about that, please let me know.

I wonder where the JBL speaker cable is manufactured. I wish I had a translation of the details of that web page. One of the pictures of the cable reminds me of ones done by Monster Cable with their products. Otherwise, the cable does not resemble any product of theirs I am aware of. Any chance anyone has used this cable?

Hi. Sorry, I don't know if the cables is used only in speakers. I just assumed it, as JBL never before have distributed cables. And yes, I would like to know who makes them as well.

SEAWOLF97

04-03-2007, 08:27 AM

for a while , I was using old 4 wire telephone cable - solid wire- the round cable that was usually pink- and twisting 2 pairs out of it. worked really well,

coherent_guy

04-03-2007, 10:02 PM

for a while , I was using old 4 wire telephone cable - solid wire- the round cable that was usually pink- and twisting 2 pairs out of it. worked really well,

... worked really well?? Compared to what? (Sorry Seawolf, but it's time the cable snobs got a few licks in, but I rather it not be on you...)

Ok, so let's see, maybe 24 gauge each, twisted together is 21 gauge. So you wanted to tame the grip of a solid state amps high damping factor by adding a little resistance to the equation, and emulate the high output impedance of a tube amp? All righty, and the peaks and dips in the FR caused by that low damping factor (see any Stereophile amplifier review measurements section, tube amps in particular) gives some of that great tube sound, cool! Maybe that wire is twisted as in a twisted pair, so that's good, even cable nay-sayers like that. Also, solid core wire... no "strand jumping" and "diodic" affects from that, great! The individual conductors are inside a somewhat loose outer jacket, that's "air dielectric", only a vacuum is better than that! That small wire gauge is good for "skin effect" problems too!

Guess what Seawolf, I stand corrected! That is some kick-ass, snob-o-phile, high-end, amplifier/speaker interface! You are an audio guru! And all along you're pretending to be a doofus, asking stuff like, "... can I use da tape outputs for my amps put-ins" :blink: , sheeeit!

So you cable-atheists out there, you quite likely are using cable that has at least one attribute held near and dear by us misguided, uneducated, (not double) blind, tone deaf and dumb (what?) cable worshipping fools! Welcome to the club!

(Hey Wolfie, listen up, have I got some cable for you, 17-9's copper, irridium plated, dynamically varying gauge, twisted inside-out insulation, real-time cryogenically treated in liquid helium dielectric jacketing...)

SEAWOLF97

04-03-2007, 11:17 PM

... worked really well?? Compared to what? (Sorry Seawolf, but it's time the cable snobs got a few licks in, but I rather it not be on you...)

take some time out from the cutsie replies and give it a try, you may be surprised. As I said, this was some time ago when my high-fi was only mid-fi (Pioneer receiver , AR speakers and TEAC cassette.) :bouncy:

hjames

04-04-2007, 05:32 AM

I wish I could change the laws of physics just for you, but I can't.

I get tired of AUDIO GUYS talking "knowingly" about Skin Effect.

Skin effect is a phenomenon that occurs at RF typically in the UHF frequency range - specifically 2.6gHz (not meg - GIG). Thats known as MICROWAVE to layman - skin effect IS NOT SIGNIFICANT within the audio range.

How do I know? FCC First Class license (at the time) ...

I was trained in Microwave theory and (among my other tasks) I used to manage a bank of 64 microwave transmitters used in a 200,000+ subscriber CATV system in the DC area. The transmitter side of the site was a room of transmitters with microwave waveguide and combiners that looked like rectangular shiny copper plumbing before it swept outside and up to the transmission tower. Waveguide - because, due to SKIN EFFECT, there was no point in using copper transmission lines because at 2.6gHz the signal travelled on the surface of the conductor and tubing, or waveguide, increased the amount of surface area without the high cost or weight of solid conductors of that diameter.

Look it up - the equipment was manufactured by Hughes and known as Hughes AML (Amplitude Microwave Link) - in the days before fiber links across a large area we used Microwave to loop 64 channels to the fringes of our area.

If you don't believe me, read these guys - they are Audioheads -
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

Sometimes its more than a hobby - its Science!

... worked really well??

That small wire gauge is good for "skin effect" problems too!

duaneage

04-04-2007, 06:37 AM

I like the article in speakerbuilder where cables were made from beldon telephone wire, 3 runs used for around 14 gauge equiv., and tested out to 100Khz against esoteric cables. capacitance, inductance, resistance adn phase shift were about the same.

I think money can be better spent on room treatments and RTA software to better benefit.

Robh3606

04-04-2007, 07:20 AM

One of the reasons AA doesn't allow DBT discusions in the Cable forum is to keep the fur from flying. These discussion have a way of becoming heated and feelings can be hurt in the process. Can you all just remember there is another guy on the other side of the debate that loves this hobby just as much as you do.

Rob:)

Rolf

04-04-2007, 11:38 AM

I wish ... etc

I don't care for a minute about readings. I ask: What do we hear? Why do I bother. Those of you who can't read it, can't hear it. Why do you bother to listen to different amps? They are the same.

hjames

04-04-2007, 12:58 PM

READ my post - I never said anything about your gold polonium esoterium cables. I didn't ARGUE cables. Buy them, enjoy them, share them with your friends. Its your money and your hobby. Enjoy it.

All I said was that skin effect is not SIGNIFICANT below RF frequencies.

I said nothing about Amps, nothing about wires, nothing about Monsters or their cables, nada ... My post is easily read below,go ahead, read it again.

If you want to plumb copper tubing around your living room to conduct audio, you go for it. Go on - soldier up your own waveguide if you like, I won't stop you. Please, send me pictures of it - I miss the old microwave transmitter rooms ... Copper is real pretty and shines up nice.

But please - if you quote me, at least read me first, ok?

I don't care for a minute about readings. I ask: What do we hear? Why do I bother. Those of you who can't read it, can't hear it. Why do you bother to listen to different amps? They are the same.

clmrt

04-04-2007, 01:00 PM

22g solid rules.

Rolf

04-04-2007, 01:08 PM