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hjames
03-27-2007, 08:19 PM
I just did a search for Phono amp/modules/eq with no luck.
Sometime in the last 4 weeks or so someone posted a link to a company that make a series of external phono preamp modules - the price and quality varied quite a bit but it seemed like they filled a real need.

Well, my new HK receiver has no Turntable/phono input - and at least part of my audio urges are realized with my ancient Denon turntable.
So I need some kind of module or external amp with RIAA eq to step it up to line level and feed it into the HK.

Ideas, comments? Perhaps the author of the previous post I vaguely remember can help me out?

grumpy
03-27-2007, 08:32 PM
http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Phono-Preamps

not a recommendation, but an example of price ranges... I have a friend
the uses the Bellari and likes it... I have a few-years-old AR unit that I'm
fond of. NAD makes one that's a reasonable place to start without breaking
the bank and gets good bang for the buck reviews... -grumpy

(you can find many of the examples at this web site cheaper elsewhere...
some are intended for moving coil vs. the more "normal" moving magnet...
no point to pay for the extra low noise & gain if it's not needed)

moldyoldy
03-27-2007, 08:56 PM
Hi, Heather,

A fairly inexpensive option is a pair of (yellow) Altec 1579 modules. For your app would require minor DIY, a pair of octal sockets, a small project box, and a wall wort PS. They show on eBay fairly regular, usually bring ~$25-30 each. Simple project, pleasing results, but likely would get you booted from any hi-ender circles (which suits me just fine ;) ). I'll dig some out and post specs if you want.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1975-pro/page21.jpg

grumpy
03-27-2007, 09:06 PM
sounds like a fun project! :) -grumpy

moldyoldy
03-27-2007, 09:15 PM
I installed a pair internal to the TT. No low-level cable loss/issues for me!

BugC
03-27-2007, 10:46 PM
Hi Heather,

Have you tried Marchand Electronics?

Cheers,
BugC

rs237
03-28-2007, 12:21 AM
Hi Heather,

here the winner of the ETF06 RIAA is comparison test.

http://www.hagtech.com/cornet2.html

regards

juergen

Fred Sanford
03-28-2007, 05:30 AM
7:25 AM, on a dingy, grey Virginia morning...a cry for help comes over the mountains...

This sounds like a job for...cue my theme song:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/sounds/sanfordandson.wav

...as our hero emerges from the junk-strewn basement with a new-in-the-box:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/mmfphonopack.htm

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rprea&1108258539&read&3&4

Looks like they've got a new product out:

http://www.musichallaudio.com/mmf_products.asp?show=true&prolook=bellari

Heather, as usual, feel free to borrow it to see if it suits your needs, and we'll either work out a deal or this can help you learn what exactly you do want.

7:28, and the cereal didn't even get soggy. :applaud:

je

X_X
03-28-2007, 07:08 AM
Welcome to the wide world of phono preamps. As you might imagine, suggesting a phono pre is like suggesting a car. There are so many kinds and styles to choose from, one can get lost in the choices. Being the vinyl junkie that I am- I think a wildly competitive marketplace like this only suppports the fact that more people are getting into vinyl these days. Blame it on the CD format wars. Blame it on the fact vinyl sounds so good and selling off your old records isn't worth the hassle. Why not spin 'em!?

Since there are so many choices and flavors- defining your absolute needs and budget will get you to your picks in a hurry. For example, what type of cart do you have (MM or MC)? What level of db step up is necessary? What traits are you looking for (a quiet pre, a tube or solid state model, a battery powered unit, etc.)?

If you want to test your skills with a soldering iron- there are hundreds of free DIY schematics available on the web. Nelson Pass made several top notch solid state units- readily available to the DIY community. There are many more...

When it comes to budget, remember that most entry level units will be focusing on the midrange portions of the material. Extending to the absolute lows and highs is typically a trademark of the pricier units. Not always the case but more the norm.

If you find a complete preamp with a decent phono section- you can use just the phono section of that pre and route it into your other (main) pre. The Dynaco PAS3 preamp is just one popular example of this. It has a very respectable phono section. A lot of people use a Dynaco PAS for its phono section only. I once used just the board of a PAS3 (upgraded parts) and powered it with a torroidal and solid state rectification and it sounded amazing! It took a $2K preamp (A blueberry extreme) to put it out.

For the really tight budget- look at the pro DJ type phono preamps. They are dirt cheap and will get you spinning in no time. Don't expect an involving musical performance, yet some sound decent enough to get you by.

The Bellari unit Grumpy suggested is a good choice for your entry into tube phono preamps. I know someone with it and he loves it. It is very popular.

Another friend of mine uses this little gem to good effect:
http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/Firestone-Audio-Korora-Phono-Pre-Amplifier-p-16763.html

There are wonderful merits to using battery powered units. I remember seeing a battery powered unit in the $150 price point recently. Stereophile had a quick snippit on it. Pretty favorable as I recall. I will try to track it down for you and post a link if you are interested.

More to come.

Nate.

JBLRaiser
03-28-2007, 07:35 AM
Welcome to the wide world of phono preamps. As you might imagine, suggesting a phono pre is like suggesting a car. There are so many kinds and styles to choose from, one can get lost in the choices. Being the vinyl junkie that I am- I think a wildly competitive marketplace like this only suppports the fact that more people are getting into vinyl these days. Blame it on the CD format wars. Blame it on the fact vinyl sounds so good and selling off your old records isn't worth the hassle. Why not spin 'em!?

Since there are so many choices and flavors- defining your absolute needs and budget will get you to your picks in a hurry. For example, what type of cart do you have (MM or MC)? What level of db step up is necessary? What traits are you looking for (a quiet pre, a tube or solid state model, a battery powered unit, etc.)?

If you want to test your skills with a soldering iron- there are hundreds of free DIY schematics available on the web. Nelson Pass made several top notch solid state units- readily available to the DIY community. There are many more...

When it comes to budget, remember that most entry level units will be focusing on the midrange portions of the material. Extending to the absolute lows and highs is typically a trademark of the pricier units. Not always the case but more the norm.

If you find a complete preamp with a decent phono section- you can use just the phono section of that pre and route it into your other (main) pre. The Dynaco PAS3 preamp is just one popular example of this. It has a very respectable phono section. A lot of people use a Dynaco PAS for its phono section only. I once used just the board of a PAS3 (upgraded parts) and powered it with a torroidal and solid state rectification and it sounded amazing! It took a $2K preamp (A blueberry extreme) to put it out.

For the really tight budget- look at the pro DJ type phono preamps. They are dirt cheap and will get you spinning in no time. Don't expect an involving musical performance, yet some sound decent enough to get you by.

The Bellari unit Grumpy suggested is a good choice for your entry into tube phono preamps. I know someone with it and he loves it. It is very popular.

Another friend of mine uses this little gem to good effect:
http://www.wickeddigital.com.au/Firestone-Audio-Korora-Phono-Pre-Amplifier-p-16763.html

There are wonderful merits to using battery powered units. I remember seeing a battery powered unit in the $150 price point recently. Stereophile had a quick snippit on it. Pretty favorable as I recall. I will try to track it down for you and post a link if you are interested.

More to come.

Nate.


newer model Chinese 6sn7 preamp just to play the vinyl. The 12ax7 tube phono stage is very musical. They are readily available on Ebay.

coherent_guy
03-28-2007, 08:03 AM
Here are a few more examples of phono preamps for you. I'm not recommending that you purchase from this retailer per se, although I have had good experiences with them in the past:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=74&pagenumber=1&sort_on=title&sort_by=

Since CD/Digital media became prevalent, many manufactuers stopped including phono preamps in their products as you have experienced first hand. If you are an analog enthusiast you might want to consider a unit with the capability of setting the input impedance and amount of input capacitance to optimize the frequency response of the phono cartridge. Different cartridges function optimally with different "loading" settings of those two parameters. This is not essential but is nice to have.

As with most things in audio, the sky is the limit in phono preamps too, with units being available for thousands of dollars. Given that you can purchase a cheap receiver for $200, phono preamps similarly priced may seem ridiculous, but that is the reality of things. Good luck!!

jim campbell
03-28-2007, 08:05 AM
does the phono input on pre amps for moving magnet type cartridges match the input sensitivity of the tape ins or aux ins?i have a quatre gain cell that was for matching moving coil cartridges to he phono input of my pre amp but i never did find out if the phono input on preamps were any more or less sensitive than the other inputs.in its day the quatre sold for about 250 bucks and was powered by 4 d cells.i learned the hard way never to turn it of or on when the unit was powered as there was an ungodly pop that went tru the system.

X_X
03-28-2007, 08:10 AM
Dynaco PAS3 into a...newer model Chinese 6sn7 preamp just to play the vinyl. The 12ax7 tube phono stage is very musical. They are readily available on Ebay.

'Raiser,


Agreed. They are hard to beat. I found them to be a bit noisy in stock form, though that could be related to a few parts being out of spec. When I incorporated a solid state rectifier over the 12X4, and beefed up the power supply- things really began to move!

As a standalone phono- the following two mods will help greatly improve the perfomance (AKA- 2 friendly suggestions that you may have already incorporated...;) ):


1. Bypass all tone controls on the pas3 as suggested by Curcio. Also remove the volume control and clip the entire selector switch out of path. Wire the phono board direct.


2. Clip the linestage board remove its 12ax7 load from the power supply. Greatly increases the dynamic perfomance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bouncy:


These two mods will cost you next to nothing. (except the cost of solder and about 1' of wire). Oh, also the cost of two resistors. When you remove the select switch- you have to reroute the load onto the phono board. That means you have to change a pair of resitors. It is all outlined in Curcio's documents.



I can attest to these two mods and they turned my "little engine that could" into a full blown freightliner.




Originally Posted by jim campbell http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=159582#post159582)
does the phono input on pre amps for moving magnet type cartridges match the input sensitivity of the tape ins or aux ins?



Jim,


Phono inputs on preamps are very specific with regard to cart type, and they do not match the input of an AUX or TAPE loop input. Phono inputs of the MM variety are approx 1.5mV- 5mV; MC = 0.1 - 0.5mV inputs (+/- on both). Line Level inputs= 2V range.


A common mistake people make is routing a stand alone phono pre into the phono input of the main preamp. Very bad. They step up the signal and as such, should be routed into the AUX. Otherwise, the phono input on the main pre is just that- a direct connection to the TT. Sounds like a mistake few people would make, but it happens...


When it doubt- err on the side of caution and double check. A mismatch in sens can cause parts to operate well out of spec and result in resistor burnout when the load gets heavy enough. I messed up doing this once...only once.



cheers,
Nate.

grumpy
03-28-2007, 08:21 AM
does the phono input on pre amps for moving magnet type cartridges match the input sensitivity of the tape ins or aux ins?


no. the line level (tape in/aux in) inputs are -much- less sensitive.



i have a quatre gain cell that was for matching moving coil cartridges to he phono input of my pre amp but i never did find out if the phono input on preamps were any more or less sensitive than the other inputs.


This would be a non-equalized, pre-preamp ... one can also buy step-up transformers
to perform a similar function. An actual preamp phono input must in include something
resembling RIAA equalization to flatten the frequency response back out. I'm not a
huge Wikipedia fan, but : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

-grumpy

hjames
03-28-2007, 08:42 AM
In the old days I used to run the table with a Stanton 681 EEE - but I'm sure I have a lesser pickering or similar in there now. (at work now, not at home to check, sorry).

I just need a minimal gain stage with an RIAA vinyl EQ.
I'm not really looking to run my turntable off a tube amp - certainly nothing THAT esoteric!


newer model Chinese 6sn7 preamp just to play the vinyl. The 12ax7 tube phono stage is very musical. They are readily available on Ebay.

Hoerninger
03-28-2007, 08:50 AM
I just need a minimal gain stage with an RIAA vinyl EQ.

Plug and play or
iron and solder?
___________
Peter

X_X
03-28-2007, 08:51 AM
In the old days I used to run the table with a Stanton 681 EEE - but I'm sure I have a lesser pickering or similar in there now. (at work now, not at home to check, sorry).

I just need a minimal gain stage with an RIAA vinyl EQ.
I'm not really looking to run my turntable off a tube amp - certainly nothing THAT esoteric!

Well then, it all comes down to the big "B" word (budget). I'm sure there is a phono pre to match it so long as you are prepared to spend around $100USD.

Nate.

PS. Kudos on excersizing restraint WRT the poopy jokes. You just galvanized a common gender bias: Women are more mature than men. :)

jim campbell
03-28-2007, 09:58 AM
no. the line level (tape in/aux in) inputs are -much- less sensitive.



This would be a non-equalized, pre-preamp ... one can also buy step-up transformers
to perform a similar function. An actual preamp phono input must in include something
resembling RIAA equalization to flatten the frequency response back out. I'm not a
huge Wikipedia fan, but : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

-grumpyare you familiar with the quatre gain cell.far as i know im the only one here who owned one and with my audio research pre it sounded great.but with nothing to compare it to ive often wondered..........

Zilch
03-28-2007, 11:19 AM
http://www.behringer.com/PP400/index.cfm?lang=ENG


:)

grumpy
03-28-2007, 11:29 AM
or have some fun & get that vinyl digitized:

http://www.artproaudio.com/products.asp?id=110&cat=13&type=90

Fred Sanford
03-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Denon had a turntable with a digital out for a while. Might have been pro/DJ equipment.

je

Ian Mackenzie
03-28-2007, 01:02 PM
Nad, Creek and Musicaly Fidelity have some quite respectable units than won't break the bank.

JBLRaiser
03-28-2007, 06:05 PM
http://www.behringer.com/PP400/index.cfm?lang=ENG


:)


You keep this up and Heather just might change her gender preferences.:duck:

moldyoldy
03-28-2007, 09:02 PM
...banana wasn't dancing ...

Considering a change yourself? :D

Zilch
03-28-2007, 09:20 PM
Actually, I like Grumpy's ART one better. PE doesn't have the USB one, apparently, but the regular one is $50 there:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-876

Pro audio dealers have or can get them, tho.... :thmbsup:

hjames
03-30-2007, 05:22 AM
or have some fun & get that vinyl digitized:


I actually have a vinyl-to-digital solution for my Mac.
Haul the turntable up to my office, set the software for RIAA/turntable mode, and play the LPs, remembering to mark song transitions ... save to AIFF, convert to high-rate AAC, etc ...
I've already done that a few times for a few albums that just don't exist any other way - but its a royal pain, its quite time consuming, and even at this point I still have maybe 300 LPs that I have not replaced with remastered CDs.

But thanks for the idea ...

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic/

Ian Mackenzie
03-30-2007, 08:58 AM
So when are to inviting one of these Boys over for a spin of all that vinyl?

hjames
03-30-2007, 09:15 AM
So when are to inviting one of these Boys over for a spin of all that vinyl?

He he he -
Well, this weekend is probably the last chance I'll have for the Zilch-test ...
the new HK receiver is in place and works well - so I can pull the rack out one last time, (! is there EVER really a "one last time"?), tap into the front-channel preamp outs, swing the speaker lines around, and reconnect the biamp gear & the zilch-horns, and see how it all works for all my sources. After that real-world testing I'll have a better idea where I want to go with the system next. Then I can tear down Zilch's gear late next week and ship it back to Zilch

Of course, I haven't made the trip down to Fred's yet to check out all his gear - nor Don's, for that matter!

And I still have to rebuild the creekbed for our pond. It sprung a leak over the winter and I can't run the pump without the waterlevel dropping dangerously low right now ... Mason and concrete work is a bit tougher than speaker testing ... but I don't want to wait until summer for that project ...

There's just not enough time ...

Fred Sanford
03-30-2007, 12:52 PM
Of course, I haven't made the trip down to Fred's yet to check out all his gear - nor Don's, for that matter!


There's just not enough time ...

Hi Heather- sorry for the verbose post earlier in this thread, I was in a weird mood- the short version of it is that I have a phono preamp (maybe two, actually) that you can borrow to test, and make any reasonable offer on it if you'd like to keep it. I'm heading to NY this weekend (not sure if we're passing the DC way, I usually don't but Jean does- we'll see who's driving!), but could ship one next week if it helps. Let me know.

Same goes for the OmniMount brackets, but you'd have to narrow down which types you'd like to see, shipping one of each would be pretty inefficient.

je

hjames
03-30-2007, 01:10 PM
Thanks - its not a problem, its just been ... busy.
Emma was getting ready for her trip (and Palm Sunday and Easter for 2 churches) - she's been in Richmond all week watching over her dad while her sister's family went away for a mini-vacation.
My dad is coming by in a bit for a visit, and this suddenly warm weather means yard work gets to ramp up again ... and I really do have to plug "the Zilch conundrum" back into the system and give that a few days listen, now that the new receiver is in place.

The speaker mounts can wait - I've got to figure out phono options - tho I'd love something I could mount under a rack shelf and forget. (re: the mysterious modules someone had posted in another thread that I can't find now - frizzle frazzle LHS Search!!)

At some point it'd be nice to borrow something like a Crown D-300/JBL 6260- size amp - but ...

If you do head by this way - I can give you a number, or meet you or ...

if not, I should make plans to ride down some Sunday when Emma heads to church and we can visit offline for a bit ...




Hi Heather- sorry for the verbose post earlier in this thread, I was in a weird mood- the short version of it is that I have a phono preamp (maybe two, actually) that you can borrow to test, and make any reasonable offer on it if you'd like to keep it. I'm heading to NY this weekend (not sure if we're passing the DC way, I usually don't but Jean does- we'll see who's driving!), but could ship one next week if it helps. Let me know.

Same goes for the OmniMount brackets, but you'd have to narrow down which types you'd like to see, shipping one of each would be pretty inefficient.

je

hjames
03-30-2007, 01:24 PM
http://www.phonopreamps.com/

Something like this that I could mount under a shelf ...
and wallwart powered

(But of course - this tube preamp also sounds intriguing ...http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1965/phono.html) (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1965/phono.html)

SEAWOLF97
03-30-2007, 01:41 PM
Dont know if you are set on your preamp yet, Heather, BUT the Yamaha C-4 that I just aquired has provisions for 3 TT's and is heavily orientated towards TT's. Can do MC and MM. And has adjustable cartridge loading. They arent very expensive, just saw a BIN for $100. Oh ,yeah..has 2 pre outs.

regards
TOM

Fred Sanford
03-30-2007, 01:49 PM
Something like this that I could mount under a shelf ...
and wallwart powered


The MMF I have is ~5.25" x 5.25" x 2.5", and wall-wart powered. Could be tucked away pretty easily. Not sure what the other one might be, likely a Radio Shack or similar, nothing special.

je

Hoerninger
03-30-2007, 02:29 PM
Found em - anyone have experience with these folks?
http://www.phonopreamps.com/

Don't judge a book by its cover, but the TC-400D (Deutschland) I got here under another label (for cheap in any respect) seems to be the same. It is a 2-transistor design with unpredictable results, I have never tried it.
(Crap - why bother about fine speakers?)
___________
Peter

rs237
03-30-2007, 02:32 PM
:applaud:

regards

juergen

Fred Sanford
03-30-2007, 02:36 PM
Thanks - its not a problem, its just been ... busy.
Emma was getting ready for her trip (and Palm Sunday and Easter for 2 churches) - she's been in Richmond all week watching over her dad while her sister's family went away for a mini-vacation.
My dad is coming by in a bit for a visit, and this suddenly warm weather means yard work gets to ramp up again ... and I really do have to plug "the Zilch conundrum" back into the system and give that a few days listen, now that the new receiver is in place.

The speaker mounts can wait - I've got to figure out phono options - tho I'd love something I could mount under a rack shelf and forget. (re: the mysterious modules someone had posted in another thread that I can't find now - frizzle frazzle LHS Search!!)

At some point it'd be nice to borrow something like a Crown D-300/JBL 6260- size amp - but ...

If you do head by this way - I can give you a number, or meet you or ...

if not, I should make plans to ride down some Sunday when Emma heads to church and we can visit offline for a bit ...

No problem, I'm not nearly unpacked/set up yet, and things will slow down considerably since I'm starting a new job Monday. However, things like speaker brackets will get more & more buried into attics, but I'm keeping inventory of each attic section for reference!

The Urei 6260 is earmarked for the studio PA mains (months away), but the Crown can substitute for it if you ever want to check out the 6260. The Crown is earmarked for...nothing, other than backing up the 6260 at this point, so that's not a problem.

By "ride down some Sunday", is that passenger in the CR-V, or piloting the Triumph? I've been doing lots of riding lately, another thing that will suffer due to this whole employment thing. :scoot:

I've got your cell & home #s, I'll be in touch if we're passing by Sunday afternoon.

je

jim campbell
03-30-2007, 02:41 PM
I actually have a vinyl-to-digital solution for my Mac.
Haul the turntable up to my office, set the software for RIAA/turntable mode, and play the LPs, remembering to mark song transitions ... save to AIFF, convert to high-rate AAC, etc ...
I've already done that a few times for a few albums that just don't exist any other way - but its a royal pain, its quite time consuming, and even at this point I still have maybe 300 LPs that I have not replaced with remastered CDs.

But thanks for the idea ...

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic/how have the results been sound wise,and do you think analog tape would be a better if not expensive alternative

hjames
03-30-2007, 06:22 PM
The MMF I have is ~5.25" x 5.25" x 2.5", and wall-wart powered. Could be tucked away pretty easily. Not sure what the other one might be, likely a Radio Shack or similar, nothing special.

je

Well, that sounds like a good thing, thanks! - I gather the quality is fine - so we just need to sort out a price I 'spose ...
It sounds like its just what I need,
.. but y'know, ... it doesn't have terminator style blue LEDs on it ... sigh
... what is WITH all these folks who build allegedly modern gear without blue leds
... don't they know that blue Leds are the paradigm of the future?

Looks like Hoerninger's got the number for that other module I saw online -
that tear-away view tells me its probably wise to keep stuff like that out of my rack.

And by Ride on down - it would probably be with Emma in the Civic Si or the CRV - I haven't pulled the Triumph out of the shed - and its a 500cc 4sp twin - for local riding only, not really interstate ready.

hjames
03-30-2007, 06:26 PM
Dont know if you are set on your preamp yet, Heather, BUT the Yamaha C-4 that I just aquired has provisions for 3 TT's and is heavily orientated towards TT's. Can do MC and MM. And has adjustable cartridge loading. They arent very expensive, just saw a BIN for $100. Oh ,yeah..has 2 pre outs.

regards
TOM

Well, thanks for that info - as I told you before, I am a BIG fan of the Yamaha stereo gear - and someday I want to replace my first generation CR-400 with a cr-1020 or 1040 - in the guest room ...
But - I am running multichannel in the main room - and just replaced my old 5.1 JVC with a new (refurb) Harman-Kardon AVR 335 - it arrived Tuesday so I'm not looking to replace it anytime soon - just want to supplement it with a TT gain stage. But thanks for the idea!

hjames
03-30-2007, 06:38 PM
The sound is actually pretty good - if the source is good. I digitized some early Ultravox LPs and it was real fine - kind of techno punk stuff so noise wasn't audible. But I tried to digitize Elton John's Madman Across the Water
and the old vinyl was just noisy enough that it bugged me - and I wound up buying a used CD of it from Amazon later that month.

See, that's the point - I'm not planning to buy a copy of Santana Moonflower or Lotus remastered - but I do like to be able to play some cuts off it now and then, or early Blue Oyster Cult (the Last Days of May) - or Lawrence Olivier doing Hamlet (rare vinyl) ... or a bunch of strange things I get in the mood to play, rarely, but don't want to drop cash to buy yet again ... There is far too much new music I don't yet own for me to worry about buying old stuff yet again.

Not sure why Analog tape would be considered - I just pulled my cassette deck out of the rack last year when I realized I just didn't use it any more.
I'm not doing PCM audio recording on videotape, nor DAT, nor R-R.
Damn it Jim, just a preamp, not a tape doctor! :applaud: (sorry, couldn't resist)


how have the results been sound wise,and do you think analog tape would be a better if not expensive alternative

coherent_guy
03-30-2007, 11:04 PM
http://www.behringer.com/PP400/index.cfm?lang=ENG



:)


OMG NO!! NOT a Behringer!!! It must be a stolen circuit design made with inferior parts and assembled by slave labor who knows where!!

(I heard it was a knock-off of the Boulder phono preamp that goes for $30k, that Behringer sells for 0.1% of that price... those bawstawds!! :biting: )

Hoerninger
03-31-2007, 01:48 AM
... a stolen circuit design ... with inferior parts ... assembled ... who knows where

I have never bought a Behringer, some thoughts:

A RIAA circuit can barely be stolen, all different types of topologies are known for decades - I have a thick folder. (IC manufacturers publish complete circuits too.)
Boulder with $30k is simply overprized.

A low prize can only achieved by parts selection and low salary workers (The TC400 is presumably a universal far east product)

A highly recommended part is the "Black Cube" by LehmannAudio (http://www.lehmannaudio.com/english/sales/salesca.htm), but you have to pay for quality:
http://www.lehmannaudio.com/english/products.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blackcubepwx_e.html
http://www.jessen-highend.de/images/blcubin.jpg
___________
Peter

hjames
03-31-2007, 06:12 AM
Yes, but the review quotes the Black Cube SE + PWR (robust external PS) at 620 Euros - I've got to say - the Receiver costs me under $400US ... heck, even the turntable (new in the 80s) was under $400 US
I appreciate that I don't want a $29 module - but anything over , say, $150 is probably overkill in that system.

Thanks for the information, Peter!



...

A low prize can only achieved by parts selection and low salary workers (The TC400 is presumably a universal far east product)

A highly recommended part is the "Black Cube" by LehmannAudio (http://www.lehmannaudio.com/english/sales/salesca.htm), but you have to pay for quality:
http://www.lehmannaudio.com/english/products.htm
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/blackcubepwx_e.html

___________
Peter

coherent_guy
03-31-2007, 09:40 AM
I have never bought a Behringer, some thoughts: ...

Boulder with $30k is simply overprized.

...
Peter

Well of course it is, and phono preamps seem to exemplify the ridiculous pricing of some equipment. While the Lehmann may be of high quality, what you get for the price, three op-amps, small handful of capacitors and resistors, with wall-wart power supply, is surprising. Welcome to the world of high-end audio. I'd love to see an internal pic of the Behringer unit.

For the price I like the Parasound and NAD units below, though still expensive relatively speaking. Not rated as highly as the Lehmann, but 1/4th the price. Both will accomodate MM and MC cartridges.


http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZPHONO

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NAPP2

I like Ultravox too...

SEAWOLF97
03-31-2007, 10:09 AM
Only slightly OT

my C-4 has 3 TT i/p's . I dont use vinyl anymore , so they are wasted. NE1 know what it takes to convert a phono input to just an AUX ??

hjames
03-31-2007, 10:57 AM
Well, turntable inputs are designed for low voltage signals, much lower than "line level" inputs like cassette, CD, DVD, etc ...
So first, the TT input levels would be overdriven by other devices.
Second, TT inputs have an RIAA curve to compensate for the curve used when recording the vinyl. Think of it sort of like Dolby is for tape. Even if you pad down your auxiliary signal to run it into the TT input, the signal will get distorted from the RIAA curve.

Best to get an external switcher if you need more inputs.




Only slightly OT

my C-4 has 3 TT i/p's . I dont use vinyl anymore , so they are wasted. NE1 know what it takes to convert a phono input to just an AUX ??

SEAWOLF97
03-31-2007, 11:13 AM
Well, turntable inputs are designed for low voltage signals, much lower than "line level" inputs like cassette, CD, DVD, etc ...
So first, the TT input levels would be overdriven by other devices.
Second, TT inputs have an RIAA curve to compensate for the curve used when recording the vinyl. Think of it sort of like Dolby is for tape. Even if you pad down your auxiliary signal to run it into the TT input, the signal will get distorted from the RIAA curve.

Best to get an external switcher if you need more inputs.

Had another receiver about 10 years back with too many TT's i/p's also. My tech guy who is now gone said "bring it in, the internal mod is easy..I'll do it for free". so thats the question. What was he going to do ?

Hoerninger
03-31-2007, 11:18 AM
For the price I like the Parasound and NAD units below, though still expensive relatively speaking. Not rated as highly as the Lehmann, but 1/4th the price. Both will accomodate MM and MC cartridges.

Thank you for your reply. Parasound and NAD I did not know. The NAD looks really nice ...
The Lehmann reminds me that there was a soldering iron too ... ;)
____________
Peter

hjames
03-31-2007, 11:23 AM
Had another receiver about 10 years back with too many TT's i/p's also. My tech guy who is now gone said "bring it in, the internal mod is easy..I'll do it for free". so thats the question. What was he going to do ?

Thats hard to say, exactly, - but depending on circuit design it could be as simple as soldering a couple of jumpers to the circuit board to bypass a gain stage and the phono EQ.

Easy for him to say :applaud:

Hoerninger
03-31-2007, 11:26 AM
NE1 know what it takes to convert a phono input to just an AUX ??
Don't know "NE1" but this little circuit in front of the PHONO input will convert any LINE.

[NE1 = anyone?]
____________
Peter

X_X
03-31-2007, 11:28 AM
Only slightly OT

my C-4 has 3 TT i/p's . I dont use vinyl anymore , so they are wasted. NE1 know what it takes to convert a phono input to just an AUX ??

Yes, I do. But, I would only 'convert' the RCA jacks.

A true Phono input means there is a step up and a form of RIAA EQ. Clip this out of circuit by removing the wires leading to the input jacks. Double up an AUX from your other AUX inputs and wire it in where the phono once was.

Depending on the circuit of your preamp, there might be a load removed from the power supply when you bypass the phono leg and a "dummy" load (in the form of resistors) may need to be implemented to keep it balanced. I would have to see the amp, and pref a schematic to say for certain.

Nate.

SEAWOLF97
03-31-2007, 01:17 PM
now a further wrinkle is...

I have 2 controls for phono cartridge load

the first is marked in pF and ranges from 100-470

second is Ohms...marked from 100-100X.

hjames
03-31-2007, 01:24 PM
Sure - but the REAL question is - do you NEED that extra input, and if so, what are you planning to use for the signal source?

That info is just for better matching the phono cartridge you might choose to use ... if you physical bypass the gain stage within the amp it becomes moot.


now a further wrinkle is...

I have 2 controls for phono cartridge load

the first is marked in pF and ranges from 100-470

second is Ohms...marked from 100-100X.

SEAWOLF97
03-31-2007, 01:40 PM
Sure - but the REAL question is - do you NEED that extra input, and if so, what are you planning to use for the signal source?

That info is just for better matching the phono cartridge you might choose to use ... if you physical bypass the gain stage within the amp it becomes moot.

just using the Nano for a source....have many tunes on MP3 that there is no physical media for.

hjames
03-31-2007, 01:48 PM
just using the Nano for a source....have many tunes on MP3 that there is no physical media for.

Sure - on my system I run "Airtunes" streaming from my Mac into the Tape-in port ... if that or any of your other inputs are free its an easier path than reworking a phono input ...

coherent_guy
03-31-2007, 02:30 PM
I agree with Ms. James and others, bypassing the phono stage is not very simple and would likely be a major modification. I don't understand Hoerninger's circuit, but it would need to both attenuate the input signal drastically, and perform the opposite RIAA EQ so the net result is flat response. There are other issues with this conversion that just don't make it practical in my opinion.

This may be a "duh" suggestion, but you can use the tape inputs for the Nano.

You can try using a pair of Y cables with one male to two female RCA jacks, and share an input with the Nano and whatever. Just turn off the other source. It will work but occasionally there are little glitches waiting to bug you that might mess it up. It will likely be just fine. Worth a try and Y cables can be had for a few bucks. There are other types, PE has them but their site is down at the moment it seems...

If you are desperate, you can turn another receiver/preamp into a switching unit by connecting your extra sources to it and then run a cable from its tape out into the C4. Choose the desired source by setting the "Tape Out" or "Record Out" to that source on the switching unit. Ignore the volume control, it will do nothing. This adds another preamp stage circuitry in the signal path, but that will only bother the purists (like me) or the golden ears that could hear it.

I'm betting you have an extra piece or two that you could do this with... ;) Let us know how things work out.

Hoerninger
03-31-2007, 02:56 PM
... bypassing the phono stage is not very simple and would likely be a major modification. I don't understand Hoerninger's circuit, ...

From left LINE source (Nano) is coming and converted by the circuit to reverse RIAA with the appropriate level, right to PHONO input of amp.
These parts (twice for stereo) can be fitted external in a little box, no mods in the amp are necessary, or this little circuit is built into the amp between connectors (cinch) and the pre-amp.
With this modification the PHONO input can be used as AUX with a minimum of technical understanding.

Other solutions for the Nano are possible of course.
___________
Peter

Zilch
03-31-2007, 04:18 PM
Sure, fine, but we need the asterisked info....

[That'd be three nanos go there, no? :p ]

Hoerninger
03-31-2007, 04:24 PM
Sure, fine, but we need the asterisked info....

Oh Mann, you can't get 3nF, take 2,2 nF and 820 pF in parallel. :p - typically marked 2n2 and 820.
[I do not have no iPod :blink: ]
____________
Peter

coherent_guy
03-31-2007, 04:54 PM
[quote=Hoerninger;160262With this modification the PHONO input can be used as AUX with a minimum of technical understanding.

Peter[/quote]

I see, I was just surprised that such a simple circuit could perform the inverse EQ, when there is much more going on in a phono preamp. But it's great that it works! Not my style, but interesting. I'm a pure (ha) digital person, no TT's in my system, inexpensive ones are not good enough sonically for me, and I won't/can't afford a really good TT set up with all the necessities.

Are you familiar with Vincent components, they have a phono preamp at the retailer I provided links to in an earlier post. They look good to me, but I've never heard them.

Also, "NE1" is a shorthand for "anyone", get it?

Anyway...

Our friends at PE have an inexpensive phono-pre that may be good, made by ART for $49, check it out:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-876

Seawolf, this is the part I mentioned from PE:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-510

hjames
03-31-2007, 05:11 PM
That gold "adapter" scares me! It looks like party paraphenalia from the 60s ...
or some kind of weird gear from Johnny Neumonic - or underwater breathing adapter for James Bond - or ...

Thing is, it would probably work, but I don't even want to know what it does to the impedance of the circuits ...
he he he :applaud:



... anyway...

Seawolf, this is the part I mentioned from PE:

coherent_guy
03-31-2007, 08:01 PM
Now now, what are we dreaming about, Hmmm?? I'd say more of a 70's design. Or are those dual quads? Some of us (most :) ) here remember carburetors, right? Frankly, I don't miss them.

Actually, I prefer Y cables, those adaptors are a bit tight clearance wise when making connections. Of course the paralleled impedance will be lower than usual, but how low depends on the sources. At less than 10k Ohms, bass can start to roll off but nothing gets damaged.

So let's see, you need a phono preamp, and Seawolf wants to bypass his, are we ever satisfied with what we have?? Tsk tsk...

jamh
12-17-2007, 12:42 PM
Hi, Heather,

A fairly inexpensive option is a pair of (yellow) Altec 1579 modules. For your app would require minor DIY, a pair of octal sockets, a small project box, and a wall wort PS. They show on eBay fairly regular, usually bring ~$25-30 each. Simple project, pleasing results, but likely would get you booted from any hi-ender circles (which suits me just fine ;) ). I'll dig some out and post specs if you want.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1975-pro/page21.jpg


I'm in the process of building a phono preamp with the 1579s, but with a custom power supply of high quality. Does anyone have any experience with these modules and would like to add anything?

I'm using a 12V toroidal tranny, a cascade of MUIR diodes and fairly beefy caps.

Fred Sanford
12-18-2007, 01:06 PM
Anyway...

Our friends at PE have an inexpensive phono-pre that may be good, made by ART for $49, check it out:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-876


Found a version of this at a music store today for $16 on closeout.

je