Crown K Series amp opinions? [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

scott fitlin

03-06-2007, 11:50 AM

Nice to see you, too, Ken.

From what Im told, according to Crown, the K series has the same front end as the older but discontinued Macro Reference series. The Ref,s were good sounding amps, particularly for low frequency. K,s are considered " good enough " for studio use, and I see them when Im out and about.

I have tried some other amps, and Im finding out I really am partial to the way Crown sounds on bass. Got that Crown punch and growl.

Baron030

03-06-2007, 01:46 PM

Hi Scottyj

I have been using the Crown K1 and K2 amplifier for some time now. And personally, I think the sound quality to be excellent. :thmbsup:
For several years, I ran my old 030 system with a K1 and found it to work very well. Admittedly, I could not run the K1 at anywhere near its full power level with the old 030s.

Currently, I am using a K2 to power JBL 2226H drivers and a K1 to power JBL 2012H drivers in a quad amplified system. Since, the K series amps do not have a cooling fan and they have a very low noise threshold. The resulting dynamic range is from dead silence to an ear splitting 120+db.
And surprisingly, the K2 has slightly better transient response then the K1. I am guessing that the higher rail voltage of the K2 does a better job of goosing the voice coils into giving a slightly puncher sound then the K1 does.

The only bad thing that I can say, about the K Series, is that they do not work well for driving high efficiency compression drivers. I once ran a JBL 2446H/2382a HF horn combination with a K1 and found that the power supply was shutting down between songs. The cause of this shut down is that there is an energy saving circuit built into the K series amplifiers that will put the power supply in sleep mode, when there is no input signal for about 50 seconds. Since, the 2446 drivers were drawing only a fraction of a milli-watt at low volume levels, the amplifier was going to sleep. This sleeping amp problem does not occur with lower efficiency drivers like the JBL 2226H. So, it’s not an issue for driving woofers. For driving high efficiency compression drivers, the crown D series is a better choice over the K series, because of this “sleep mode” issue.

Baron030 :)

scott fitlin

03-06-2007, 01:53 PM

I have been told Crown fixed the sleep mode problem.

I do use D series Crowns, on my compression drivers i use a D-150A, and that isnt going anywhere anythime soon.

The thing at this moment for me, is Im going to different woofers, I have replaced my Altec woofers. They worked really well with Crown DC-300A,s but, 125/150 watts per woofer just isnt enough for either the JBL 2226H or the TAD-1603. The B & C,s Im trying also want more power.

Nothing snaps and growls like a Crown.

Baron, the bass the Crown K makes? Its nice tight bottom end?

matsj

03-06-2007, 02:17 PM

I have 4 K2 and i really like them. I have 3 in my HT to feed 8 2226h and the last is for future.
I have also tried them to 2446h, and they were never fall to sleep :) .

mats

Baron030

03-06-2007, 03:35 PM

Nothing snaps and growls like a Crown.
Baron, the bass the Crown K makes? Its nice tight bottom end?
__________________
Scottyj

Hi Scottyj

If the bass were any tighter it would be anal-retentive. :rotfl:
The JBL 2226H & Crown K2 combination packs quite a punch.
Muhammad Ali's catch phrase "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." very quickly comes to mind.

Baron030 :)

scott fitlin

03-06-2007, 03:49 PM

Thanks, sounds very encouraging. Im making arrangements to audition K amps.

merlin

03-06-2007, 05:58 PM

I'ver had a K1 for about four years now - powers a variety of large cones with consumate ease and reliability. Never gets too hot. Always stays in control.

It has that visceral weight to it, and control that very few amps can match and I've compared it with Krell, Bryston and others. For the money, and for bass duties, it's fabulous. For midrange and treble it's OK - nothing special though in a hifi setup.

scott fitlin

03-06-2007, 06:07 PM

Bass. They would be powering LF woofers, two 15,s per channel. 750hz and down.

Chest thumping, but clean well defined, tight and punchy low end is what I want.

Mike Caldwell

03-06-2007, 06:18 PM

Hello
The K2's are excellent amps for low end, extremely tight and controlled. However listening to them powering some custom passive full range cabinets the high end ( a one inch B&C compression driver) seemed different in more of a processed kinda of way. I know that's a vague description! The signal path was CD player, amp, speakers. The stand by option on the older models had an adjustable threshold control. The newer models do not have any control for it unless it is internal. The output section it was the new I tech series is based on and what the CE4000 used. Low power draw, low heat, sealed chassis, good amp for installed use. I have some that are in a 9 year old install at a school without a single problem.

Mike Caldwell

scott fitlin

03-06-2007, 06:27 PM

Yeah, I have heard about that. The K amps are supposed to make real good bass, but sound sort of metallic and artificial on HF.

They say the same thing about I Techs, great bottom end sound, harsh and metallic sounding further up.

LF is what Im after though, and hey, even the old Crown DC-300,s were good for bass, but mids and highs, kind of grainy sounding. Powering TAD or JBL 15,s is what they will be doing.

I Techs are too much power for me, and I dont need all that additional DSP. Also, the sound of the I Techs, and those I have really heard, I dont know, cant say for sure I really dig them. Im told, by Crown, that the K has the front end of the Macro Ref,s and has alot to do with why they will sound good enough for me on my woofers.

As many amps, other brands, that I have tried, I just find myself looking for that Crown kick and definition.

louped garouv

03-06-2007, 10:58 PM

The thing at this moment for me, is Im going to different woofers, I have replaced my Altec woofers. They worked really well with Crown DC-300A,s but, 125/150 watts per woofer just isnt enough for either the JBL 2226H or the TAD-1603. The B & C,s Im trying also want more power.

Nothing snaps and growls like a Crown.

have you ruled out the TAD 1601a?

125/150 wpc is right up their alley, no?

scott fitlin

03-07-2007, 07:22 AM

Yes, Im not using the 1601A. I have the 1603,s and they are good sounding, and can take up to 500 watts, same efficiency as the 1601A.

The 1601A has the alnico magnet, and that makes it considerably more expensive, BUT, if I really just HAD to HAVE alnico, I would go for the 1601B. Higher power handling than the 01A.

I had some 1601A,s and still have one, the 1603,s sounds good, though. Nice weight on the low end, and they purr. Very non fatiguing sound. Very clean sounding.

Im also trying JBL 2226H,s. Harder punch, not as weighty on the deeper low end. Also good.

I am trying some B & C neo midbass woofers, too. These give more of a traditional basshorn sound, but lack the low end kick of either the JBL or TAD! High sensitivity though, but, when you put some real power into them, they can get LOUD sounding.

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 01:41 PM

So, I went a few weeks ago to listen to Crown K amps, I thought they do make good bass. And that is what I was going to use them for, so I was ready to purchase three brand new amplifiers!

I went to buy, and guess what? Good 'ol Crown discontinued the K Sereis of amps! Yep, K1,s and K2,s are NO MORE!

You cant win anymore, I gotta find an amp that kicks but I dont want any I Techs.

:banghead:

Baron030

05-02-2007, 03:31 PM

Oh, please say its not so.
The I Techs have a noisy cooling fan.
The K series amplifiers are dead silent.
Well, it least until you put a signal to them, and then its watch out.:rotfl:

Aw Crap! I was hoping to get another K2 or two for a future sub-woofer project. :banghead:

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 03:36 PM

Well, you can always get one off fleabay!

But, I wanted new.

:banghead:

Baron030

05-02-2007, 03:39 PM

And like you Scotty, I want new. :banghead:

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 03:46 PM

I hear you. Now I have to go listen to amps all over again, and find something I like.

:banghead:

You know, I'm seriously thinking about going Lab Gruppen, they are supposed to sound great, and I am just over how American Audio comapanies run these days.

I have been wondering what will happen to Crown with Harman being sold and all? I wonder if Crown will go private and become Crown again. Or, will they slough the company?

:(

Mike Caldwell

05-02-2007, 04:56 PM

For a possible new stock K2 or maybe K1 amps try Short Sound in Pennsylvania. He always seems to have a few of everything in stock, maybe some K2's still laying around. I know he has some Crown MA5002 amps if you want/need a lot of power.
There number is (724) 453-1401

Like Scott I'm kind of wondering what is going to happen to the Harmon companies. My gut feeling is that some will get sold off for some quick cash return.

Mike Caldwell

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 06:00 PM

Yeah, Mike, I know about Short Sound, thanks for the tip.

The Macro-Tech series is still being manufactured, the line consists of the 2402, 3600, and 5002. I guess I will have to consider the 2402, but it was never one of my favorites. Problem with the 2400 is it just doesnt have a big enough power supply for the amount of power it puts out, and after two, maybe three hours, that amp sounds winded.

Crest still makes the CA series which have nice size power supplies, I just dont love the Crest sound. Although, I may have to try out a crest CA-9 in here and see exactly what it does. The thing theat amp has going for it is it big power supply, fan cooling, and the right amount of power for the woofers I am using.

Lab Gruppen is what I'm being told to listen to, they say of all the newfangled type amps, they sound the best. They DO have amps in the power range I seek, which is 600 to 800wpc@4ohms.

:)

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 07:02 PM

I AM NOT buying used amps. I have in the past, and 97% of the used amps I bought were headaches, and had problems.

I am running a serious pro dance club sound system, and I want brand new amps, no problems, warranty, etc!

And, the BGW 750B is a nice sounding bass amp, but, not quite enough power for the 15,s I am using now. I dont need 1600wpc, but I do need more than 325wpc.

And I just dont feel like hunting down three 750B,s, I just want to get this done!

:banghead:

scott fitlin

05-02-2007, 09:19 PM

Like Scott I'm kind of wondering what is going to happen to the Harmon companies. My gut feeling is that some will get sold off for some quick cash return.

Mike CaldwellAlot of guys I know would like to see Crown become private again, and for Crown to return to making amps that THEY can make.

Crown was once THE only amp to buy!

But, those dayumed I Techs, everyone has had problems with them. They lock up, and they must go back to the factory to be serviced, then you have all those extra features Ill never use, xovers, etc. If they just could have made a stripped down version, the basic amp without all the additional features.

Then you got the xTi series, I see they put a DBX sub harmonic synth in as well. You know, that just doesnt whet my whistle.

Once upon a time, you went to the store, you bought Crown without even thinking about it, ya know?

Ken Pachkowsky

05-03-2007, 11:14 AM

Hi Scott

Yes, it's a shame Harmon/Crown dropped the K Series. I just bought a pair and can confirm they make one hell of a low frequency amp (best I have heard). If you change your mind, replace R15 on the input board with a 1M resistor thereby changing the timing on the hibernation mode for the PS from 6 seconds to 60. When the power supply comes out of hibernation mode it has an audible click. At the default 6 second timing it becomes a serious issue for home listening.

(Hint) Replacing R15 (1/4 watt) is a friggin pain if you remove the PCB to get to the underside. An easier way is to cut the leads close to the body of the existing resistor and carefully solder in the new resistor from the top side to the old leads. Don't overheat!

**Your amp will run hotter with this mod as the PS needs 1 minute of no signal on the input to go into sleep mode.

Ken

scott fitlin

05-03-2007, 11:36 AM

Thanks Ken.

Right now, Im looking at three amps, The Lab Gruppen FP-2600, The Crown Macro Tech-2402, and The Crest CA-9.

I have to hear the Lab, I know they are said to sound great, the Crown sounds like Crown, and the Crest makes a generous sounding bottom end, but is a darker sound than Crown. But, it does have a large power supply, and wont sound winded after two hours of heavy use.

SMKSoundPro

05-03-2007, 01:07 PM

I have all Crown Macro 600, 1200 and 2400 at the bar in the Big ballroom.

LOVETHEM!!! Always have, always will!!!! Changed out the mackie 1400i and 2600's.

I am looking for 3600 and 5000 right now. Money tight, ambition high!

Scott.

louped garouv

05-03-2007, 01:24 PM

Right now, Im looking at three amps, The Lab Gruppen FP-2600, The Crown Macro Tech-2402, and The Crest CA-9.

Scott,
Have you heard anything about those MC^2 amplifiers?

http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/about/

way back when Todd let me listen to his FPI unit, I think i remember that he was saying that he was spec'ing those almost exclusively; IIRC....

just tossing it out there....

:)

scott fitlin

05-03-2007, 03:42 PM

I have heard good and bad about MC-2. My problem is its not really a store stocked item here. And, I've never heard them, gotta listen before I buy. If I heard them, and got to try one, and I liked it, I would go for it.

The other side of the coin is I happen to like the Crown sound. Granted, I have always felt the PSA-2 more robust, and ultra reliable, more so than the 2400, but, the 2400, 3600, and 50002,s DO sound like Crown.

Only Crown sounds like Crown.

Ken Pachkowsky

05-03-2007, 03:49 PM

Scott

You mentined the Crest amp. I have been told they are great sounding bass amps although I have never heard one. It's always fun shopping. I am enjoying my current journey for a good Sub. I think I am leaning toward a Definitive Technology SuperCube.

I just found a Revel Sub 15 for 800 bucks and am tempted with it as well.

Ken

Steve Mac

05-03-2007, 04:42 PM

I went to buy, and guess what? Good 'ol Crown discontinued the K Sereis of amps! Yep, K1,s and K2,s are NO MORE!

Yer kidding? Holy cow...I had narrowed down my soon to be selection on the K1/K2 amps... jeepers creepers... :banghead:

SMKSoundPro

05-03-2007, 05:18 PM

scott fitlin

05-03-2007, 05:41 PM

scott fitlin

05-03-2007, 05:44 PM

I wear a Crown t-shirt to work everyday, almost and my Crown hat everyday.

Bald, you know.

Smk.

ps. Our sound rig at AK SoundLabs used Delta Omega's for subs and lows, Psa2 for mids, and DC300 for highs. Great American iron! Kind of like a Harley of amp racks. I used to throw them around myself. I was younger. I think he still has all of the Crown racks in limbo. The PSA2 is quite an amp! Sometimes fickle. Send them back to mommatech in elkhart to fix.

pps. If Crown goes private, lets buy as a group! I'm in.Yeah, I had the M-600, Ive had the Delta Omega, both great mono blocks, but the kick of the PSA-2 is classic. Always been my fav subwoofer amp.

The Macro Techs would have been fantastic amps if they had only made them with bigger power supplies. That was always the weak link in that series of amplifiers.

SMKSoundPro

05-03-2007, 08:21 PM

The Macro Techs would have been fantastic amps if they had only made them with bigger power supplies. That was always the weak link in that series of amplifiers.
Never used a PSA2 for subs, just mids. The DO's were new to us in '92. Music and live gigs were changing fast! (mchammer...etc)

Just use LOTS of 'em!!! Don't skimp on the supply wiring. I ran an extra panel from the mains to the booth just for audio stuff and amps. Got the lighting stuff off of the same panel, finally. We drove our own 8' gounding rods right there under the booth.

I agree, that sometimes the macs sound like soft power, but now, with there own dedicated 200A service it makes an audible difference!

just my .02
Don't mean to alter your thread.

scott fitlin

05-03-2007, 09:04 PM

My system has a dedicated 200 amp service just for the sound, without any lighting on it. My building has an 800 amp 3 phase main service, electric isnt the problem.

My problem, is that the 2400 gets mushy sounding after a while, it gets tired no matter what size service you have. My original 2400,s have 30amp power cords on them, I ran them each on their own 30amp circuit.

PSA-2 is a great amp, but I would not use that amp for midrange, its too hard to drive with the 2v input sensitivity, and isnt sweet in the upper ranges, makes great sounding bass, though. I also know the DC-300A. Great bass if its enough power for your woofers, but, grainy sounding in the high frequencies. I have used DC-300,s since 1977.

For upper mids I love the D-150A, and for my VHF, the Crown Power Line 2 is my fav. PL-2 is an enhanced D-75, and makes a fantastic sounding tweeter amp. I use three of these to run six JBL 2404 bi-radials, and sixteen JBL 2402 bullet tweeters. One Crown D-150A runs six 2395/2441 mid horns. This combination works extremely well.

However, the 2402 will sound proper on my TAD 15,s, I am going to put one in, and run it for a week, and see what happens, I will do the same with a Crest CA-9. I want to try a Lab Gruppen, but am having trouble finding someone who sells them here in NY.

Ill see which amp has the stamina.

You have to know, my place opens at noon every day, and runs till midnight, and till 3 maybe 4 in the morning on weekends.

JBL 4645

05-03-2007, 09:11 PM

Arr, so this is what the Crown K1 looks like then I was thinking it was an old amplifier.:applaud:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/svs-b4-subwoofer-crown-k1-amp-fr-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/svs-b4-subwoofer-crown-k1-amp-rear-.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/Brainstorm3417/svs-b4-subwoofer-crown-k1-amp-re-1.jpg

Oldmics

05-03-2007, 10:50 PM

Scott

Checkout Power Soft

http://pro-audio.powersoft.it/an_series_list.php?use_in=53&id_menu=271

SMKSoundPro

05-03-2007, 10:56 PM

Gee thanks.

Now I have to buy new t-shirts and a hat from powersoft.

Lisa will just make fun of the name.

scott fitlin

05-04-2007, 11:31 AM

Scott

Checkout Power Soft

http://pro-audio.powersoft.it/an_series_list.php?use_in=53&id_menu=271Are you using them?

What do they sound like?

Earl K

05-04-2007, 12:21 PM

Scott,

I just dont love the Crest sound. Although, I may have to try out a crest CA-9 in here and see exactly what it does. The thing theat amp has going for it is it big power supply, fan cooling, and the right amount of power for the woofers I am using.

- I'd suggest that if you're going to try any Crest CA model for subs that you make it a CA-12 ( I use QSC PowerLights above mine ).

- FWIW, I briefly had CA-9(s) on my subs ( Transparence 18s of some model ) and quite quickly gave the amps back and ordered CA-12s ( not enough watts for an 18" speaker if I remember correct ) . It's a shame that you're not local ( or even on the right side of the border ) / I'd loan you a pair to try out on your 2242s ??? ( maybe I should read your first post to see what speaker you're actually driving ) .

:)

ps ;
- Scott, I just read your first post / never-mind :p
- I use QSC PL-1.8s on 15(s) and horn drivers .

scott fitlin

05-04-2007, 12:37 PM

Scott,

- I'd suggest that if you're going to try any Crest CA model for subs that you make it a CA-12 ( I use QSC PowerLights above mine ).

- FWIW, I briefly had CA-9(s) on my subs ( Transparence 18s of some model ) and quite quickly gave the amps back and ordered CA-12s ( not enough watts for an 18" speaker if I remember correct ) . It's a shame that you're not local ( or even on the right side of the border ) / I'd loan you a pair to try out on your 2242s ??? ( maybe I should read your first post to see what speaker you're actually driving ) .

:)

ps ;
- Scott, I just read your first post / never-mind :p
- I use QSC PL-1.8s on 15(s) and horn drivers .LOL, midbass duty is what the amps will be doing.

For my 2242,s Im going back and forth between a QSC Powerlight 6.0II, and two Crown Macro Tech 3600,s.

For my horn loaded TAD,s I dont need more than 400w per driver.

I am going to try out the Crest CA-9, against the Crown 2402.

scott fitlin

05-04-2007, 02:33 PM

QSC has some interesting offerings. That 3.4 looks good. I asked a freind who also does pro sound, what he likes in QSC for 15,s he still likes the power light series, he doesnt care for the power light 2,s and said he doesnt really know about the new power light 3 series. He did say that the way they are rating the Power Light 3 series bothers him, they only provide a 1khz rating instead of the 20hz-20khz rating like they do with the original power light series.

But, they do have amps in a wider range of power output than Crown.

johnaec

05-04-2007, 08:16 PM

One thing about the Crest CA-9 - they seem to be reliable! I rough-handle mine all over town and it's never missed a beat! :rockon1:

John

scott fitlin

05-04-2007, 09:41 PM

One thing about the Crest CA-9 - they seem to be reliable! I rough-handle mine all over town and it's never missed a beat! :rockon1:

JohnYes, they are TOTALLY relaible, and very stable. No problems there, the Crest will take a beating and keep on going, no matter what!

:)

scott fitlin

05-06-2007, 01:03 PM

I got a Lab Gruppen coming this week to try out. Everyone raves about these, and the company I buy from is telling me this is the way to go.

If its that good, Ill go for three of them.

:D

Mike Caldwell

05-06-2007, 02:22 PM

I'll be waiting for the report!!!!!

Mike Caldwell

scott fitlin

05-06-2007, 02:34 PM

I'll be waiting for the report!!!!!

Mike CaldwellOh yeah, Ill be sure to say what I hear.

FWIW, pretty much everyone is recommending these to me over everything else available.

johnaec

05-06-2007, 02:52 PM

FWIW, pretty much everyone is recommending these to me over everything else available.A side note - Ultra Sound, (Grateful Dead's sound company), used nothing but Crest amps at one time, but the last time I talked to one of their guys at ProMedia, (Ultra Sound merged with them), they'd turned into big Lab Gruppen users. 'Not sure what their current standard is...

John

scott fitlin

05-06-2007, 02:54 PM

Word is Crest is moving manufacturing over to China.

WE know the old Crests were great, but everybody questions the fact that Crest is Peavey now.

Lab is the current fave amp of all the pros right now, and has been for a couple of years.

Oldmics

05-06-2007, 08:16 PM

Scott
I did not care for the Labs.

I put them heads up against the Crest 9001s and the Crest smoked them,especially on the subs.

I have only demo"ed the Powersoft amp.I have sold a few of them but they are gawd awful expensive but super powerfull.

If I was going to replace all of my Crests,I would go PowerSoft.The amps are brutally powerfull and sound excellent.Not mushy sounding like the Labs.

The only problem that I found with the P.S. was that the amps are super deep.

Only one rack space but too deep for my existing racks.I would have to reconfigure all of my amp racks for the depth of the P.S amps.

Thats my story and I"m stickin to it.

Oldmics

scott fitlin

05-07-2007, 10:46 AM

My other friend, Shorty, doesnt like the Labs either.

You know what? There are amps available! Crowns, Crests, QSC,s, Labs, so, I WILL find something I dig the sound of.

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 11:53 AM

I played with a Lab Gruppen FP-3400 last night, its ok, but thats about it.

It does have power, and does sound clean, but lacks the balls of traditional big power supply amps. It makes some bass, but sounds slightly anemic to me, just doesnt have that weight I want. I see why everyone goes double the rated power with amps like these. I only need 400w a woofer, but, had I tried the FP-2600 with its rated 800wpc@4ohms, they just dont have the reserve power, and clipping is a big no-no. The FP-3400, has 1500wpc@4ohms, and I even set the amp to only let me put out 1150wpc, but, I just dont like limiting, I would rather have an amp that can be pushed. The amp did run with out any audible signs of stress, and didnt thermal on me, but...... no balls. Notes werent as defined as I think they are with a Crown amp.

My friend Shorty is bringing yet another amp that his company makes, a more traditional class AB amp with a HUGE PS. We will see what this sounds like. 1000wpc@4ohms, 5hz-100khz, conservatively rated. If this works to my satisfaction, they have yet another amp, specifically designed for sub bass duty, 1600wpc@4ohms, class AB, this amp has 48 output devices, 2 of these for the Widget subs, JBL 2242 loaded. 24 output transistors per channel, that should be able to deliver the goods to the power hungry 18in JBL,s?

It is gonna come down to the Crest CA-9, or the Crown 2402 for my 15,s. I have to say that at this time, I am still partial to the Crown sound.

Slightly off topic, right now, I have Crown MX-4 crossovers on my full range, man, its soooooooooooo clean, transients are so clean and sharp, no overshoot or ringing. Very precise, yet totally analog, and non fatiguing. Analog processing makes highs and mids that are far beyond what I have ever achieved with DSP processing, the finesse is fantastic. Track # 17 on The Eargle on Everest CD sounds IMMACULATE! And NO digital glare whatsoever. Definitely leaving these in the setup, and putting a modified Crown VFX-2A in to drive subwoofer and tweeter amps, they are just remarkable sounding.

timc

05-08-2007, 12:15 PM

Then ive ordered a used Crown K2.....hope to get it before the weekend. Soooo excited :)

Tim

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 12:20 PM

Then ive ordered a used Crown K2.....hope to get it before the weekend. Soooo excited :)

TimTo my ears, there is still something about the way Crown sounds on bass.

:)

Hoerninger

05-08-2007, 12:47 PM

It does have power, and does sound clean, but lacks the balls of traditional big power supply amps.

... they just dont have the reserve power, and clipping is a big no-no. ... a more traditional class AB amp with a HUGE PS.

Thank you, interesting reading.
Do you think an improved PS won't help due to limiting effects?

(A bit OT: Once I read a serious and very convincing article about a three phase PS, they used three transformers, for an AB amplifier :) . But I have never seen it in reality.)
___________
Peter

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 01:02 PM

Thank you, interesting reading.
Do you think an improved PS won't help due to limiting effects?

(A bit OT: Once I read a serious and very convincing article about a three phase PS, they used three transformers, for an AB amplifier. :) But I have never seen it in reality.)
___________
PeterThe only 3 phase PS in an amp that I know about is the old Crown Macro Tech 10,000, that required a 3 phase electric service to operate. But, I dont need that much power. And no longer made.

With the newer style amplifiers, the small switching PS doesnt store much onboard current. So, even though they are in fact fast, without enough onboard storage of current, the transients, and sustained power output are where the amps dont deliver what I want. Especially when your operating at times of the day when the electric consumption in your area is at peak demand, you cant get the juice out of your system. Thats why so many amps now have power factor correction. Although, many of the newest switching amps have more current storage than they used to.

The other side of the PS coin is that amps with big PS make heavier sounding bass. When the kick drum thumps, you feel it hit your body. With many of the new style lightweight designs, the sound is there, but the weight is somewhat anemic. You just dont FEEL that bass hit your body. I find that many high power, lightweight amps sound pretty good actually, but not as full sounding bottom as a more traditional amplifier. Some of the newer amps, however, have a very fast sound, the bass has that snap and growl, scary sounding, but, still lacking in the extreme bottom end frequencies. I love when you hit a really deep note in a recording, and you feel the building shudder.

Another thing I have found, is that amps with very large power supplies dont run out of steam, and if you flash the clip indicators once in a while it doesnt run out of gas. With the newer amps, its very audible when you hit the clip limits, like a hard knocking sound. Almost like the woofer broke.

Now, with all that said, of everything available, I still find Crown has a unique sound on the bottom end that no other amp has. Especially in the transient punch department.

American iron makes the best bass, IMHO!

:)

Hoerninger

05-08-2007, 01:12 PM

American iron makes the best bass, IMHO!
:)
Nicely said. ;)
(Clipping is really annoying.)
__________
Peter

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 01:27 PM

Nicely said. ;)
(Clipping is really annoying.)
__________
PeterYes, sustained clipping is annoying, BUT, a good amp for bass is one that can handle a peak burst with ease, even if the amps clip indicators flash.

With pretty much every single lightweight amp I have tried, you CANT hit that clip indicator at all. The minute you do, its very audible.

SMKSoundPro

05-08-2007, 01:31 PM

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 01:33 PM

My dad came in to listen to what I'm doing, and he looks at those old Crown MX-4 xovers, he says I remember those.

I played the Overture of 1812 off the Eargle CD for him, he said the mids and highs were fantastic. He knows I need more power for my 15,s, and he is in from last week, its his birthday, ol' dog turned 70, but he can still hear what he likes.

His opinion is, I should stick to Crown as well. We played a few tracks, and both agreed the system is sounding good. I put the old crown xovers in 2 days ago, and my mids and highs, even my underpowered midbass are just sooooo friggin clean and clear sounding.

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 01:36 PM

I still love the whole package of my JBL drivers and Crown Macros in the big Ballroom!

It reads as if your changing your position regarding a macro power supply softness.

Not a question, merely an observation.

Scotty.Yes, because at the end of the day, still, Crown makes the best sounding bass.

I got the Lab sitting right here, and I put it in, wanting to really like it. Its good, but it isnt Crown. What else can I say?

Crown bass gets peoples attention.

:dont-know

edgewound

05-08-2007, 04:29 PM

Yes, because at the end of the day, still, Crown makes the best sounding bass.

I got the Lab sitting right here, and I put it in, wanting to really like it. Its good, but it isnt Crown. What else can I say?

Crown bass gets peoples attention.

:dont-know

Scott,

Have you tried Chevin Research?
http://www.chevin-research.com/products_a_series.php

Camco Vortex?
http://www.camcoaudio.com/products.html

FBT Symbol?
http://www.fbt.it/intranet/Inglese/pae/power-ampl/index.asp

scott fitlin

05-08-2007, 04:40 PM

3 to 4 years ago, Chevin was the name everybody was talking about. The same crowd is now talking about Lab. I never heard the Chevins, so I dont know about them. The only thing I do know is someone I know used to like them, fast, snappy sound, he used them for his 12in midranges.

Camco gets good reveiws over at prosounds website.

I have never heard of FBT.

I am auditioning three more amps at this point, Crest CA-9, Crown 2402, and my friend Shortys amp.

The way I feel right now, is I know what the Crown will do, and how it sounds, and it works sonically. At least for me, it does.

I also have to think about serviceability! If there is a brand of amplifier, and it is very good, but not common in this country, if it needs service, it could be a problem. With Crown or QSC, or Crest, they are right here, getting parts and service isnt a problem.

Camco gets great reveiws from the guys on the pro sound forum, but I have no experience with them and they arent common items in our stores, at least here in NY.

scott fitlin

05-09-2007, 12:47 PM

Tomorrow, I will be in Manhattan, I am taking a day off! Imagine that?

I will be going to Canal Hi Fi and purchasing the first of three Cropwn Macro Tech 2402,s. I will install the first amp tomorrow evening, and run it over the weekend. I'm also going to J & R,s Computer World and finally buy a digital cam, so I can post pictures of my system on the site.

After the weekend, and I know it does what I already know it will, I am getting two more, and away we go.

The TAD fifteens sound incredibly good, they purr on the bottom end.

The floor tom toms in Williams-Lupe, track #17 on the Eargle on Everest CD sound so amazingly special through the TAD woofers. They just sound so real, and accurate, yet well damped but not overly so, and so pleasing and comfortable to listen to. They are so darned clean, and they get down fairly deep.

timc

05-11-2007, 04:23 AM

Picked up my Crown K2 at the post office today.

Have hooked it up to a few different speakers and the bottom end is......incredible. Extremely tight bass and very detailed.

Im a bit surprised to find the middle and top a bit laidback. I was afraid that it would sound on the bright side....:D

Imo it lacks a bit of punch and clarity in the higher mids and top, but for the price its ok.

And for thoose who wonder how it compares to ICE class-D for sub application. Well, it wipes the floor with em :applaud:

messengerman

05-11-2007, 06:45 AM

Crown K1s are still available new in the UK. Expensive though at £1,500 or $3,000 in JBL money.

Dolphinmusic.co.uk have them.

Anyone know if they can easily be switched between 220 and 110v?

timc

05-11-2007, 08:42 AM

The spec sheet sugest that the power supply is universal switchable :applaud:

scott fitlin

05-11-2007, 10:52 AM

Hoerninger

05-11-2007, 12:27 PM

... that the power supply is universal switchable :applaud:
This looks like a switched power supply. It is obviously no restriction in general as I had supposed.
What about CROWN XLS or CROWN XTI concerning sound?
Found here:
http://www.musik-produktiv.de/(s(dena00ptid4a9s6m6s6n5zk0))/Default.aspx (http://www.musik-produktiv.de/%28s%28dena00ptid4a9s6m6s6n5zk0%29%29/Default.aspx)
___________
Peter

timc

05-11-2007, 12:32 PM

I had the XTI-1000 for a while. Very tight bass. But a bit skinner than the K2, but still very good. Enough punch to make you dizzy :)

The mids and highs however is a bit more forwards and might be to much with some speakers. (talking home speakers now)

Hope this helps.

I have not heard the XLS.....

scott fitlin

05-11-2007, 04:42 PM

I have not heard the XLS.....Dont even sweat it, the XLS is aimed at the economy, and mobile DJ markets, it aint the K2.

I agree, the switching amps tend to have a thinner sounding bottom.

Im putting Macro Tech 2402,s on my 15,s.

timc

05-12-2007, 12:25 AM

Eh..Think you are confused here. The K2 is a switching amp. The XTI is not.

Imo it doesnt matter what technology used, only its used properly.

Tim

Hoerninger

05-12-2007, 01:01 AM

... , only its used properly.

Looking for CROWN K2 specifications, I found a decription:
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/136713.pdf
Just for your insight, the K2 delivers 1250 W at 2 Ohm stereo both channels continiously.
Which amp can do this instead? *)
[Oh what a PS :applaud: ]
___________
Peter

*) Tim, looking at your post 74 I am willing to learn. ;)

timc

05-12-2007, 02:03 AM

Hehe. I read that paper up and down before deciding to buy it.

1250w into 2ohms is not that much in the pro-world. Check out the specs on the I-Techs ;)

The thing with the K2 is that it has no Fans :applaud:

Tim

Mike Caldwell

05-12-2007, 06:17 AM

The K2 is not a switching power supply in the sense of a switching power supply. It has a huge toroidal transformer that takes up the front portion of the amp. That rounded part of the front panel is all space for the transformer. The XTI amps are indeed switching power supplies and they do sound very good, I have never listened to one up close with a pair of monitors though. I'm still not 100% convinced about DSP built into amps though. Two ways to look at it...less pieces of equipment, less interconnections OR... DSP section fails amp is dead with no way to bypass it, it's still in the signal path to some degree even if bypassed.

Mike Caldwell

timc

05-12-2007, 06:27 AM

Then im in agreement. I was talking about the outputstage of the amplifier.

Mvh

scott fitlin

05-12-2007, 08:35 AM

Eh..Think you are confused here. The K2 is a switching amp. The XTI is not.

Imo it doesnt matter what technology used, only its used properly.

TimXLS IS a switching power supply.

K2 is also not a conventional amplifier, BUT, the K2 sounds good to me, better than he XLS.

You get the right Crown for your application, and use it properly, they got that certain something.

timc

05-16-2007, 01:40 AM

Ok. Ive handed my K2 over to a friend so he can do the accid test on them. He will compare the bass from it to his own ARC D400 MKII on the JBL K2 S9800......Actually i think the D400 will kick butt, will have to wait and see for the result........

But you would think K2 on the K2's should be good....:applaud:

Btw: The ARC D400 MK2 is one hell of an amp.

Tim

scott fitlin

05-18-2007, 04:31 PM

Fucking crown, :banghead:

They are discontinuing the macro tech series.

I have heard the I Techs, at shows and venues, everyone I talk tells me DONT get those. I think they sound ok when you first turn em on, but, they fade, and fade hard.

ARGHH! :banghead:

matsj

05-18-2007, 08:51 PM

The k2 are easy to change the input voltage.

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=950&view=findpost&p=3201

mats

scott fitlin

05-18-2007, 08:58 PM

The k2 are easy to change the input voltage.

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=950&view=findpost&p=3201

matsI gotta find something that I like. and I listen to the new amps, and everything out there as much as I can.

:banghead:

Ian Mackenzie

05-19-2007, 12:28 AM

A butchers cool room full of PassLabs X1000.5's might be the answer:D.
It depends on how you like your steak.

You can actually parellel them up it if you want to do some serious earth moving work.

timc

05-20-2007, 02:51 PM

timc

05-20-2007, 02:52 PM

A butchers cool room full of PassLabs X1000.5's might be the answer:D.
It depends on how you like your steak.

You can actually parellel them up it if you want to do some serious earth moving work.

You might also be able to parallel the new 2KW amps from McIntosh......:D

scott fitlin

05-20-2007, 03:17 PM

What do you mean they "fade"?

The Crown was beaten by the Audio Research amp. That was to be expected. However he says it never lost controll of things, it just smoothed everything out a bit. The highs also left something to be desired.

But......That was against an amplifier costing 4 times as much and with lesser power.

TimThe I Techs! The biggest one in the series, The I T 8000 is rated to produce 4000wpc@4ohms. But, thats more that the 120v outlet can provide. Crown claims due to their new power supply, onboard storage of current, and efficient energy draw, they have overcome the limitations of the 20amp outlet. I did read somewhere of a guy constantly popping a 20amp breaker with a single I Tech, though.

Some are still skeptical.

Fade? You ever turn an amp on, like the Macro Tech, they sound scary at first, then two hours later they just dont seem to have the punch? Power compression they told me it was, however, one day in the wintertime when Im not open, I just left the amps idling, no signal being driven, and sure enough, they still sounded faded, even with out driving woofers, just idling. I Techs sound scary when you first turn them on, but seem to lose some of it after a while, IMHO!

Then, you got guys asking questions like this next thread that Crown just doesnt answer, go figure?>>>>>>>>

http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1801

scott fitlin

05-20-2007, 03:21 PM

For me, the Macro Tech 2402, while having some slight issues I think could have been bettered, it works, and makes a punchy bass. For my money, give me a big chunk of iron and a healthy stored charge, no better way to make bass.

Im just not sold on the sound of the lightweights yet.

scott fitlin

05-20-2007, 03:26 PM

However, of any Macro Tech ever manufactured, the Macro Reference, or Studio Reference amps were amps to be heard. They were great, the bottom was so clean and taught. They were expensive, but they did the name Crown Justice.

When I first heard the TAD 1603, and 1601B,s, they demoed them on the Reference Crown, man that kicked!

If I found three nice new condition, Id buy in a heartbeat, that was an amplifier!

scott fitlin

05-20-2007, 03:49 PM

And, when you hear guys talk about Lab Gruppen sounding better than Crown, these are the amps they are talking about I Tech -vs- Lab Gruppen!

Theres even a guy on the Altec site swears the Labs are better sounding.

I tried one, its good, but not a traditional sounding amp, but good.

On one hand I really wish I did love all this new stuff, installing 10lb woofers, and 26lb amps are a walk in the park.

As much as I love my TAD,s I also like my B & C 15NDL76,s, they have a traditonal basshorn sound, very efficient, punchy, and quick sounding. And installing them, I could do with one hand! They only weigh TEN pounds, TEN pounds. My tools are heavier than they are! Neodymium could be your friend! :rotfl:

DJ Vincenzo

05-20-2007, 06:58 PM

Mike Caldwell

05-20-2007, 07:57 PM

Many amps will pass and amplifier signals below 20hz some all the down to DC. A good high pass filter in the signal path of the correct frequency for the system is always a good idea, increases headroom from not having the amp amplify unused or needed frequencies and can save speakers! Low pass filters though not as common can do the same thing for the top end.

Mike Caldwell

Ian Mackenzie

05-20-2007, 08:45 PM

Scotty,

Its not likely but a large DC offset would explain it!

The amps may also be heating up in the rack or your mains sags under load.

You guys have 120 volts , thats twice the current drawn from our 240volts. If you have other heavy appliances or systems on those phases somethingmight be getting quite warm after a while hence the dynamic sack under transients. Whereas the old iron core and big caps hold the charge in the short term. Just a hypothesis .....

Ian

scott fitlin

05-21-2007, 08:16 AM

i blew 4 - 18's from unstable power or subsonic freq.....so i heard that unlike the macro tech these 2 amps will put out freq below and above 20-20000. I agree they sound a lil harsh like a CD as opposed to a mp3 but i own 3 and i think they are the BEST amp for the money on the market...they go for 500 on ebay and are ussually in pretty good shape from being in studios.

crown techs told me there about to release a new amp to replace this one...should be very soon.Heck, I have been running DC300A,s FOREVER, and those old grampa,s will pass everything from DC to 20K. Never DCeed a woofer on one yet. No filitering, no protection, and it worked since 1976. Even had DC300,s go down during the show, uneventful, and just the amp crapped out, no fireworks, no loads ro recone, etc!

scott fitlin

05-21-2007, 10:48 AM

I just did my own little amp shoot out, the Crown CE4000 -vs- the Macro Tech 3600VZ

From 1200wpc to 1600wpc, there should be a negligible increrase in audible output, as according to Hoyle, one must double the power to hear a difference in level.

The 3600 is most definitely a stronger sounding amp, no if, no ands no buts.

Lots of keyboard bassline sound from the CE4000, but the 3600 wants to THUMP HARD! More solid sounding bottom end, IMHO. 3600 had the building rattling. Now I want to try the appropriate I Tech, against the 3600 and see what happens!

I dunno!

scott fitlin

05-21-2007, 05:15 PM

Well, 5 days till my buds amp from his company, headed by Summit Audio, arrives for demo. These amps are made the traditional way, big ps, lots of output devices in class AB, and even mosfet.

Im gonna wait till I hear this thing. He sold a few to some studio cats that flipped for em.

Many power points, all built to work all week long. Power ratings are true RMS ratings, 5hz-100khz, not todays @1khz, or peak burst power!

They look really cool, nice black faceplate, eyebrow LED,s and really quiet fans, I mean QUIET! Even I was surprised at how quiet the fan is with an amp he showed me a few weeks ago.

demanddeepbass

05-22-2007, 01:36 AM

Scott - I've had repeatable issues with the CA series. If you feed them very low frequency full power sine waves for any length of time over a few seconds they blow up. It takes out some of the 5 watt current sense resistors which quite often take a few of the output transistors down too. If you look at the circuit you can work out that the dissipation in these resistors for the full output case is more like 25watts. Crest have just assumed that no one would ever use the amp at 100% duty cycle and skimped a bit on resistor power ratings.
I've done this to my own CA6 and CA9 I've also seen in other peoples CA4s and CA9s. I no longer use them for LF. To my ears they are pretty sweet sounding on mids and highs but they get pounded by a macrotech for LF (I have 601 and 1201 for comparison)
Pitty about the K2s; I was going to get one for my home theater rig

Olly

scott fitlin

05-22-2007, 09:06 AM

Yeah baby, I had more than my share of crests blow up on me. Remember in the 90,s they blew up on turn on? White smoke before you even pounded them, insides looked like it had been bombed out.

Crown today? I dont know about them, this time I want to try something made for us, made for audio, not pricepoints, weight, or size, and how much power they can cram into an undersized chassis, I wait for Thrive Audio!

4313B

05-22-2007, 09:12 AM

scott fitlin

05-22-2007, 09:20 AM

:yes:

Bad run of capacitors they said it was, when you opened the amp, it was alllll blown up. Emitter resistors, everything. A mess.

All you had to do was turn the amp on, it did the rest for you! :dont-know

Mike Caldwell

05-22-2007, 12:22 PM

Let me add my vote for the Crown MA3600vz, I use them on the low end in my system with great results. I have them loaded with the EDCb PIP cards. That card gives you a selectable high pass filter and an output voltage and error driven limiter that has adjustable threshold, attack and release times. The rest of the amps are QSC Power Light Series 2 models, 14 of them.

Mike Caldwell

scott fitlin

05-22-2007, 02:45 PM

For low end out of Widgets ported JBL 2242 cabinets, I have my choice of two 3600,s or 1 QSC PowerLight 6.0II. Both are hella strong amps.

Mike Caldwell

05-22-2007, 03:02 PM

A friend of mine has one PL6 the earlier PFC model and he powers four EAW double 18 cabinets with it. Even with a 2 ohm load per channel the amp runs cool, granted there are four fans in it! When working hard the MA 3600's at 4 ohms will be putting out some warm/slightly hot air. I have the 3600's in a separate racks from the QSC's because Crown exhaust the hot air from the back while QSC draws air from the back of their amp.

Mike Caldwell