Does wire "get old" ?

[SEAWOLF97]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?

I opened up an OHM today and stripped it all apart. The factory wire was 18 or 20 ga (not marked) , but in good condition. Pulled it all out and replaced with 12ga monster from binding posts to drivers (there is no xover). Of course the wiring runs, connectors, etc were not ready for this upgrade, so it took a while.

Finished up the one speaker and will do the other mañana.

Put power to them and the one with replaced wiring now sounds cleaner (for lack of better word). I don't want to use "the veil has been lifted" analogy. BUT, I did have to reduce treble tone control.

So the question is...did the improvement come from newer wire or better than factory installed wire ? (the monster 12 ga. is prolly 10 y.o. and the factory wire at least 30 y.o.)

[jim campbell]

ive always wondered about the wisdom of expensive cables on the other side of a two dollar fuse too!!!!!!!!

[epoch5]

I think it only gets old with age.:rotfl: :rolleyes:

[John]

I vote for the Better or different wire as the cause!!!

[X_X]

Well, oxygen free copper (OFC) will not oxidoze over time like regular copper wire will. Oxidation will limit flow somewhat. Some swear it corrupts the signal...I don't know about that. So, YES, some wire does get old.

Parts of the signal certainly do pass through cheap resistor leads, fuses, and various changes in wire guage and quality. You have to think of the entire run- summed. Anywhere there exists a chance to increase the flow in terms of quality wire- it can offset some of those limiting factors somewhat. I've experienced significant changes- even with wire of the same price (cheap!). I never spend more than $5USD a meter on anything.

Jeff at Sonic Craft says it another way:

One of the most significant discoveries I made several years ago when designing speakers was that regardless of response curves, the use of certain crossover components, connections, and wire made a vast improvement over the main stream parts currently available. The improvements were independent of the "standard methods" of quantifying quality, but special component construction/design reproduced better sound. Some of these qualities are difficult or impossible to quantify at this time. This type of scenario has given rise to convictions such as: "For those who have experienced it, no explanation is necessary.....for those who have not, none is possible". The formally educated side of me is disturbed by this. None the less, I hear what I hear. Case in point, the speaker that measures great, but sounds mediocre at best. You may know the story, but how about the solution? Simple, all the right variables are not being measured, or identified for that matter. Again, all quality has yet to be quantified.

Nate.

[scott fitlin]

Like X X states, wire especially copper wire, oxidizes, and as it oxidizes its resistance changes, slightly. If the oxidation becomes bad enough it could compromise signal flow, possibly at different frequencies, Im not sure.

But, they say, and have been saying for eons, clean your connections once a year, and many people swear after they clean their connections, and connectors, they hear a difference.

On another type of wire application, I had to replace a run from the circuit breaker to the switch pedal of one of my bumper cars this winter. My cars are 34 years old, and the wire I replaced was about 25yrs old. Anyway, I ordered 8ga stranded DC power cable from an electrical supply, did the work, and when I tested the car out, I thought it was running faster. Usually, clutch and subsequent clutch adjustment and the ride operating voltage determines speed and torque. A week later, we were testing and running cars, and one of my guys, who wasnt here when I rewired the car rode it, and said number 12 seemed faster. All I had done was replace a 4, maybe 5 ft run from the breaker to the cars pedal switch. So, maybe wire does get old and resistance does build up enough over years to impede current flow.

Could be, as I said, I replaced a power carrying cable on a bumper car, and with no other adjustments, or motor work, I thought the car moved faster.

[coherent_guy]

Does wire get old?

An excellent question with many implications if the answer is yes. Such as, does the wire in everything from transformers, inductors (chokes), wire wound resistors, loudspeaker voice coils, or even the leads to resistors, caps, etc. get old? Why stop with wire, only one shape of copper we use, what about printed circuit board traces or the contacts of various connectors, plugs, sockets, etc. What does "get old" mean in particular?

Considering copper wire, two things come immediately to mind regarding degradation. One being chemical corrosion, the other physical damage caused by stresses applied to the wire. Uninsulated copper wire will oxidize over time when exposed to air. Insulated copper wire that is well sealed seems to be protected from this, I imagine we've all seen nice shiny copper when insulation is removed from old wire. Cutting a wire always reveals a shiny interior in my experience. So it seems wire does not corrode internally at least over the span of decades. So called oxygen free copper is not 100% free of oxygen, but it's oxygen content is reduced compared to ordinary wire. Regardless, it does not seem to oxidize from the inside, or at least anywhere near as quickly as the surface of copper does when exposed to air.

A wire that is bent or moved many times is stressed and weakened. Whether this can be noticed by measurements of, say, resistance, is unknown to me. The same is true for oxidized copper, does it exhibit an increase in resistance?

The wire inside your Ohms is not that old, what, about 25 to 30 years? I suspect the difference you heard is due to the increase in wire gauge and/or the new or cleaned contact surfaces. It always surprises me to find the skinny wire inside speakers like you found, probably used to save money and is deemed to be "good enough".

If wire does naturally age and deteriorate, the implications for vintage equipment is not good. Think about the transformers in tube amps and VC's in those vintage JBLs and Altecs. Are they doomed if this happens?

So this long-winded, :blah: reply comes to no absolute conclusion. I would say that corroded wire is degraded compared to non-corroded wire. If you get shiny clean copper when stripping insulation off a wire, it is likely just fine regardless of age. I've read that corrosion of silver wire doesn't matter, since oxidized silver (silver oxide) is a good conductor of electricity. As for aluminum, who knows? I'd be interested to hear what does change in copper wire if it does get old. I've never seen this question addressed before anywhere, it is a good one.

[Zilch]

Copper does not oxidize.

It "Patinates." :D

www.copper.org

[SEAWOLF97]

What does "get old" mean in particular? The same is true for oxidized copper, does it exhibit an increase in resistance?If wire does naturally age and deteriorate, the implications for vintage equipment is not good. Think about the transformers in tube amps and VC's in those vintage JBLs and Altecs. Are they doomed if this happens?



Hi CG-

I edited down your response a bit. I think that the general question "get old" probably refers to increased resistance although other parameters could be affected. The wire that I pulled out really looked just fine. Its hard to believe that on expensive speakers, they would skimp over the designers specs to save a dollar or so (I mean we are only talking about 8 feet of wire here). Although JBL really skimped on the binding posts in the 1970's.

This kinda raises a bigger question on vintage speakers. Would they all benefit from upgraded internal wire ?

Since I only did 1 today, I can set the system to MONO and get between them and hear a clear difference.

So do you need to upgrade only as far as the xover ? or all the way to the driver ?

What parameter would I measure to find out what is making the difference ? resistance ? then what if those readings are nearly the same ?

yea, I know , too many dumb questions. :banghead:

[Robh3606]

How often does the power company change the lines in the grid or the service to your house?? If there was any significant loss of conductivity and changes in resistance you would see it there.

They have thousands miles of copper wire exposed to the elements for decades at a time. I would worry more about the actual connection points oxidizing in audio applications. The wire itself, used indoors, in a cabinet, encapsulated in insulation???? I just don't see an issue there.

Rob:)

[UreiCollector]

perhaps it is our ears getting old? :) I'll be quiet now. My ears are happy. :applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?Damn! look at these bottlenecks... well, I guess these tiny leads will have to be replaced. :rotfl:


Widget

[jim3860]

I've been slowly upgrading all my speaker wire to 12 ga. Then I began thinking : Soooo, I've got 12 ga going right up to the binding posts on the speakers, but when internal wire connects from the binding posts up to the drivers is smaller, don't I make somewhat of a self defeating line or bottleneck ?

So the question is...did the improvement come from newer wire or better than factory installed wire ? (the monster 12 ga. is prolly 10 y.o. and the factory wire at least 30 y.o.) That is an interesting question. I had the same thought a while back myself. I first thought about it after i had bought a pair of 781 series mission bookshelf speakers.

I of course needed to know what the insides looked like, so I took the drivers out and peered inside. Well inside was 12 gauge wiring going from the crossovers to the woofer and tweeter. I was suitably impressed and thought to myself hmmm......... if mission thoought that there speakers needed 12 gauge wiring my jbl L100s needed it too.

So I dutifully rewired all the wires that i could spot with 12 gauge. What a pain in the ass it was lol. Then I listened to it rewired versus the stock one and there was no doubt in my mind that the newly rewired one sounded better. so i did both of them that way.

Now as to whether the wire was old enough to need it or not I dont know. personally I think what took place is that the wiring that jbl put in there to begin with was cheap crap. I dont think it would have made any difference if i had rewired with 18 gauge, because the runs are so short between the crossovers and drivers. But either way it sounded better to me regardless of the reason why. REGARDS JIM

[Zilch]

Oh NO!!

Y'all are DESTROYING that "Vintage JBL SOUND!!" :banghead:

[You're saving that old JBL wire so you can restore them to their original state, right? :yes: ]

[spwal]

When I put Zilch miracle wire in my Hereseys, I did an interesting test i played a stock one next to the one I had just finished upgrading. there was a clear difference in clarity between the two. (paul coats also used overkill speakerwire as my hookup wire on my 19s)

the klipsch crosssovers are fun to work with for a chump like myself, because everything is labeled and almost all of it is screw down :)

I am pretty out of cash at the moment, but ultimatly i want to run some nice speaker wire directly from the crossover and remove those cheezy binding posts all together.

the zilch upgrade combined with a crites capacitor upgrade was no small upgrade.

sea-- did you use some sort of deoxidizer on your contact points while you were in there?

[coherent_guy]

Hi CG-

I edited down your response a bit. I think that the general question "get old" probably refers to increased resistance although other parameters could be affected. The wire that I pulled out really looked just fine. Its hard to believe that on expensive speakers, they would skimp over the designers specs to save a dollar or so (I mean we are only talking about 8 feet of wire here). Although JBL really skimped on the binding posts in the 1970's.

This kinda raises a bigger question on vintage speakers. Would they all benefit from upgraded internal wire ?

Since I only did 1 today, I can set the system to MONO and get between them and hear a clear difference.

So do you need to upgrade only as far as the xover ? or all the way to the driver ?

What parameter would I measure to find out what is making the difference ? resistance ? then what if those readings are nearly the same ?

yea, I know , too many dumb questions. :banghead:


No problem SW, edit away and save that disk space! ;) Now what did I tell you about this "dumb question" stuff? You seemed to like my dumb answer . . . :p

What is different between the wires you replaced? Well, eight feet (in each speaker?) of, what was it, 20 gauge, compared to 12 gauge is quite a difference in size physically and there is a small difference in resistance between the two. Given that speaker drivers are very low impedance devices, maybe small differences from thin connecting wires makes a difference, with that difference affecting the amp and then the sound.

Is the original wire tinned? I don't think so, but I have a thing about that, even though skin effect is not supposed to be a factor at audio frequencies. Cable nuts would talk about differences in the type of insulation, but I'm not going there.

If replacing one leg of wire within a speaker between crossover and drivers is audible, why not between binding posts and crossover? This is not an issue with your Ohms, since they don't have a X-over, correct? Then there is the use of small gauge wire in inductors in a crossover, won't the many feet of wire in them affect the sound? Gotta replace them to tell, always something else :banghead:

I agree about skimping on the hook-up wire, although if the difference is a dollar as you suggest, on a production run of 100,000 speakers. . . quite a difference. Even a 10 cent difference in wire cost is $10,000 in my example. This is significant to the so-called bean counters. How many L100's were produced over the years? Saving pennies on say non-anodized screws makes a difference on paper and to some that's all that matters when you sell "product" and it doesn't matter what that product is to the executive types.

I've replaced those 70's "binding posts" on several pairs of JBLs over the years, I hate those bloody push terminals!!

Regarding what to measure, it would have to be resistance since inductance and capacitance differences will be even less then resistance. If the resistance measurements are the same, you then have entered the Twilight Zone of subjective differences and the mysterious unknown affect we don't recognize or measure. It might be the number of copper crystal boundaries within the wire, something mentioned by wire heads that use Ohno continuous crystal cast wire, which really exists. And Zilch is right, time to start selling the vintage wire on ePay!! Ok, time to stop :blah:

[SEAWOLF97]

Damn! look at these bottlenecks... well, I guess these tiny leads will have to be replaced. :rotfl:


Widget

of course, I said TO THE DRIVER, not WITHIN the driver. But read it how you want.

[scott fitlin]

How often does the power company change the lines in the grid or the service to your house?? If there was any significant loss of conductivity and changes in resistance you would see it there.

They have thousands miles of copper wire exposed to the elements for decades at a time. I would worry more about the actual connection points oxidizing in audio applications. The wire itself, used indoors, in a cabinet, encapsulated in insulation???? I just don't see an issue there.

Rob:)Hey Rob, down here in Coney Island, Con Ed does alot of work, always changing something. Two years ago they replaced the massive transformers under the sidewalks, they do this every ten years, salt air corrodes them quite a bit faster than everywhere else. I swear everything runs better since they changed the transformers.

I do have some expensive power cords, had to buy em, had to try em! FWIW, the couple feet of power cord does make an audible difference, and I dont know why, because I also agree, Con Ed has thousands of miles of corroded cable, probably millions of splices so the last two or three feet should make NO difference whatsoever! But it does.

But I dont know! Maybe theres something to it we dont know. Its like my bumper car I changed that wire, the reason I did it, is the wire and lug that attaches to the switch pedal breaks off from heat and mechanical stress, when it does, I strip the wire end, crimp a new lug on, good to go. Till theres no more usable slack left, then you have to replace the wire, and thats exactly what I did. I didnt replace the wire expecting any improvement, just needed to replace the wire. But, that car did seem to me, to be faster. And, then someone working for me said the same thing, with no prompting from me, or knowledge of the wire being replaced. Nonetheless, that car seems to run faster, and I replaced the wire with the same type of 8ga stranded DC power cable that came out!

:)

[Robh3606]

I think that one of the things that may be influencing wire changes outs are the quality of the original wire connections say on spade terminals. Any of these inexpensive connectors are prone to oxidation. Same as a noisy potentiometer in a speaker if you run the wiper through the range they can self clean and you can get a real improvement in the overall sound. Similarly with these inexpensive wire terminations. Some of what you might be hearing is actually the difference between the original oxidized connection and the new one.

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

Then the answer to the original question, Does wire get old, would be Yes, it does.

[Robh3606]

Does wire get old, would be Yes, it does.

Sure it does, but I think the environment and conditions where it is used has an effect on any degradation that occurs. In an automobile or in your carts are a much more demanding and harsh environment than inside a speaker cabinet. I have had wiring insulation literally fall apart in my hands with old extension cords as an example and old wiring in my Dad's old cars.

We self life magnet/voice coil wire at work and have to re-qualify it every two years for use in satellites for reliability reasons as an example. The varnish insulation has a limited life. It can crack as its wound and cause a short in the inductor of transformer between windings. New wire won't crack and will remain that way once wound. Older wire can crack but it's due to the mechanical stresses from the winding process. If it's good to begin with the insulation will not crack over time after it is wound.


I am sure Con Ed does lot's of work where you are, Salt water is murder to all things metal which is in line with where it is used. You should have seen what it did on my brother in laws boat!! The harness was spliced under the rail and a couple of the splices were not done properly or protected for the salt water and got so resistive from corrosion that it heated up enough to melt the insulation on the adjacent wires and cause a short that completely destroyed the harness and damn near started a fire.

Rob:)

[SEAWOLF97]

Older wire can crack but it's due to the mechanical stresses from the winding process. If it's good to begin with the insulation will not crack over time after it is wound.
Rob:)

as I said, "the old wire was in good condition", as were all connectors, they WERE soldered.


What is different between the wires you replaced? Well, eight feet (in each speaker?) .
Is the original wire tinned? Regarding what to measure, it would have to be resistance

4 feet in each speaker, crimped, not tinned. Out of my 4 DMM's , they had been neglected so long that even after changing batteries, none would give consistant ohm readings.


perhaps it is our ears getting old?

sure they are , BUT, as I said, did only 1 speaker, put pre to MONO and stood between the speakers. Can you think of a better method of testing ?

[Mr. Widget]

of course, I said TO THE DRIVER, not WITHIN the driver. But read it how you want.I was being tongue-in-cheek.

My point was that for short runs it doesn't matter. While I do typically use 12 ga internally on my woofer runs, I really doubt it makes a difference. For those of you hearing a difference I'd suggest that it is the cleaning up of the contacts and connections that has improved along with the desire to hear an improvement.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robh3606 http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=154322#post154322)
Older wire can crack but it's due to the mechanical stresses from the winding process. If it's good to begin with the insulation will not crack over time after it is wound.
Rob:)

as I said, "the old wire was in good condition", as were all connectors, they WERE soldered.



Your quoating me out of context. That has to do with why we shelflife magnet wire at work and nothing at all to do with your original post.

I can't explain why you heard a difference.

Rob:)

[SEAWOLF97]

My point was that for short runs it doesn't matter. While I do typically use 12 ga internally on my woofer runs, I really doubt it makes a difference. For those of you hearing a difference I'd suggest that it is the cleaning up of the contacts and connections that has improved along with the desire to hear an improvement.
Widget

if it makes no difference, then why bother ? seems like a contradictory statement.

as for desire to hear an improvement....naw, wasn't expecting any. Since the speakers are such low efficiency, I was hoping less resistance in the last 4 feet would help somewhat in that category.

I worked at a backbone ISP/telco - Electric Lightwave - . Their saying was "the last mile is the hardest" (in reference to getting signal cross country to your home) and I'm thinking same thing within a closed audio system.

[SEAWOLF97]

I was being tongue-in-cheek.Widget

well , I've been accused of being a comic and also not understanding humor, so maybe if its "t-i-c" , you could assist me with a smiley after it ?

[Mr. Widget]

if it makes no difference, then why bother ? seems like a contradictory statement.I didn't say it makes no difference... I said I doubted it did. Since there is the possibility it may make a difference, and I have to use something, why not use 12 ga.?

I am currently building some speakers for a client and he is ordering magic wire for all of the internal wiring... I doubt that will make a difference either, but it is his money and what he wants. I am happy to do it for him.


Widget

[Hoerninger]

Their saying was "the last mile is the hardest"
I read your observations with interest. I do not dare to object, I have been too lazy to make any investigations so far. But surely I will rewire my old "approved reference loudspeaker" one day, because I have looked into it.

But for resitors in series it does not matter wether it is R1 and R2 or the other way round R2 and R1. There must be another context.
____________
Peter

[Steve Schell]

Looking out from the output tube(s) of a typical tube amp, there may be hundreds of feet of very fine gauge wire in the output transformer primary and secondary. The ends of the windings are typically terminated with perhaps 16 or 18 gauge stranded leads that connect to the tube sockets and amplifier output terminals.

At the speaker, usually 16 or 18 gauge wire connects from the input terminals to the crossover components, and from there to the speaker voice coils. The voice coils themselves are wound with several yards of tiny wire, often 30 gauge or smaller.

In between these assemblies are whatever speaker cable the owner chooses to use. One may envision the entire lashup as a long loop or series circuit. Using heavy wire for the speaker cable portion of this circuit may do good things or bad things, depending on the results obtained I suppose. It is good to keep in mind though that only a small part of a long circuit is being changed, though.

For reasons I cannot explain I have had the best results sonically when using small gauge (usually #26 or #28) copper magnet wire for speaker cables. It has been suggested to me that perhaps keeping the cross sectional area of the speaker cables similar to the rest of the circuit is responsible for this... I dunno.

One type of wire I avoid like the plague is the common clear jacketed stranded copper speaker cable. The insulation apparently permits oxygen to get to the wire, which most often turns green in two or three years. Yuck.

[Mr. Widget]

For reasons I cannot explain I have had the best results sonically when using small gauge (usually #26 or #28) copper magnet wire for speaker cables. It has been suggested to me that perhaps keeping the cross sectional area of the speaker cables similar to the rest of the circuit is responsible for this... I dunno.You may be simply adding a ohm or two of resistance into your system and that is affecting its performance in a way you like. To confirm that you could measure the R of your light ga. wire and replace it with larger ga. wire and add a series resistor... it might be an interesting experiment.


Widget

[Zilch]

Copper oxide is brown.

Copper sulfide is black.

Copper sulfate is green.

It is also protective.

Once the green forms, the process stops....

[johnaec]

Copper sulfate is green.

It is also protective.

Once the green forms, the process stops....So all my cables are good to go now? :duck:

John

[Zilch]

So all my cables are good to go now? :duck:

JohnOnly if there's still any actual copper left.

The film is 0.002" to 0.003" thick. Nothing left of 34 Ga. strands, and 2/3 of 30 Ga. is gone.

[Just running the numbers here for ya.... :p ]

[Mr. Widget]

Copper wire is over rated... from now on, I am only listening to copper sulfate!

Zilch, from your little patination discussion, I'd guess the reason that some of the clear jacketed speaker wire turns green is that there is sulfur in the clear vinyl they are using... I doubt it has anything to do with more oxygen getting through that cable jacket compared to any other... and using OFC certainly has nothing to do with it. OFC and 9 nines copper will still oxidize. Oh, I'm sorry... patinate. :D


Widget

[Robh3606]

I'd guess the reason that some of the clear jacketed speaker wire turns green

If it's been soldered in a clear jacket look up copper abiate. Nice blue green under the sleeving

http://www.smtinfo.net/docs/Electronic%20Production/25.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=raOvDxNw2TsC&pg=RA2-PA96&lpg=RA2-PA96&dq=copper+abiate&source=web&ots=-8IhwIUM0S&sig=8BqBydP06-lfXIwdqb_YuY76SrY

Rob:)

[Zilch]

I'm startin' to think tinned is better over the long haul, from the standpoint of corrosion.

I've certainly seen fine-stranded bare wire ends that have deteriorated to nothing over time with exposure.

Also, strip back the fabric insulation on old knob-and-tube wires, and it's clear the conductor is oxidized on the surface.

Seems with copper stranded, the integrity of the insulator seal at the terminations matters. Melting-core heat-shrink may be one good option....

[Zilch]

If it's been soldered in a clear jacket look up copper abiate. Nice blue green under the sleeving.Thanks, Rob.

Back to the "Tin Before Crimping" thread, then.... :p

[Steve Schell]

Hi Widget,

I have long suspected that the additional impedance might be lowering the damping factor a tad, to good effect. I didn't explain this as my post was long enough already :) .

I'll have to try this experiment with my tube amps. I often add quite a bit of resistance in series with transistor amps to lower their death grip on the speakers, and have found that it works well.

[SEAWOLF97]

I didn't say it makes no difference... I said I doubted it did. Since there is the possibility it may make a difference, and I have to use something, why not use 12 ga.?

I am currently building some speakers for a client and he is ordering magic wire for all of the internal wiring... I doubt that will make a difference either, but it is his money and what he wants. I am happy to do it for him.


Widget

3 days ago I wud have agreed 100 percent. I wud have done the same poo-pooing that I read here.

I have listened seriously to decent audio since 1966 and can certainly detect changes especially when only half a set of speakers has been changed and I can stand in between them. To eliminate differences in ears, I even reversed and turned my back to them , so as to be switching ears. There IS a difference now.

besides the wire , only the loop connector has changed and the new ones dont really appear better than the old. The new ones are crimped and the old were soldered. On the other end, the banana plugs have remained the same.

I was asking for opinions on WHY and really dont need comments about it being better because I wanted it to be better. I have exceptional hearing for my age and DO detect a difference - mainly in the HF response.

[scott fitlin]

Also, keep this in mind, todays copper wire is not the same exact copper as yesteryears copper.

Just to say that a difference in manufacturing processes, a variation in the alloys used, could also cause a difference you hear.

Before anyone says Im crazy, think about it! If we can hear a difference from ordinary West Penn, or Radio Shack wire to exotic cables made of hyper pure copper from Kimber, or Siltech, then in fact, wouldnt we also hear a difference from copper wire made 25 years ago to todays copper wire if it is in fact a different production process, or different alloys, or amounts of certain alloys used?

[SEAWOLF97]

did the 2nd speaker today, same result.

was a little dismayed to find the factory speaker wire had been short and they soldered 2 pieces together to make a long enough run.

[SEAWOLF97]

whilest I had it open today, checked out the underside of the driver. Someone had commented (coherent guy ?) that it looked like a 3 inch voice coil. I measured it and he was correct.

this is the view from the underside. Obviously has been refoamed.

[Mr. Widget]

I have listened seriously to decent audio since 1966 and can certainly detect changes especially when only half a set of speakers has been changed and I can stand in between them.I have been seriously listening since the late '70s... your extra decade plus of experience most likely explains the difference. :D

But seriously, I'm glad you've been able to improve your speakers.


Widget


FWIW: I haven't found A/Bing left and right speakers to be a very useful technique for me. This may be due to the fact that I grew up listening to stereo... I also have a heck of a time evaluating systems in surround mode. For me, I have the most success listening to stereo pairs of loudspeakers set up in a proper equilateral triangle... in a decent room. As the conditions deviate from that my ability to really know what I am hearing is significantly reduced.

[jim3860]

3 days ago I wud have agreed 100 percent. I wud have done the same poo-pooing that I read here.

I have listened seriously to decent audio since 1966 and can certainly detect changes especially when only half a set of speakers has been changed and I can stand in between them. To eliminate differences in ears, I even reversed and turned my back to them , so as to be switching ears. There IS a difference now.

besides the wire , only the loop connector has changed and the new ones dont really appear better than the old. The new ones are crimped and the old were soldered. On the other end, the banana plugs have remained the same.

I was asking for opinions on WHY and really dont need comments about it being better because I wanted it to be better. I have exceptional hearing for my age and DO detect a difference - mainly in the HF response. Actually most people here in this thread dont disagree with you that you it sounds better. Most people seem to have different ideas why it sounds better. older wire, thinner wire, oxidized connections, etc. And I certainly agree with you due to my own experince. my hearing is superb even at my age now. I can hear both lower and higher frequencies than most people. I think it is due to the fact that i am almost blind and detect sounds that are impossible for lots of people. No matter the reason it sounds better to you and thats all that matters. REGARDS JIM

[coherent_guy]

whilest I had it open today, checked out the underside of the driver. Someone had commented (coherent guy ?) that it looked like a 3 inch voice coil. I measured it and he was correct.

this is the view from the underside. Obviously has been refoamed.

Yes, 'twas I, thanks but that was a guess from your pic of all the cones in the factory. That is one unique driver, curious that no one else ever used the idea or is it still patented or protected somehow? Did you say how big the cone is across it's "bottom"? Looks to be at least 12".

One run of the internal wires was spliced together? Seems like they were rationing wire on the assembly line. Maybe that lead was cut accidently and the worker didn't want to bother replacing it. Geez, what are the chances that you'd get that one? Lucky you!

I don't understand why the wire naysayers must run down any use of different wire, even when it's not at all weird like in your case. I use silver plated, teflon insulated wire from a surplus store called Skycraft (in Orlando, Florida, worth a visit if you ever go there) in runs from crossover to LE85's and it sounds mighty fine to me. So enjoy your improved speakers and I certainly believe that going from 20 gauge to 12 is audible, I hate micro wire!!

[SEAWOLF97]

FWIW: I haven't found A/Bing left and right speakers to be a very useful technique for me. This may be due to the fact that I grew up listening to stereo... I also have a heck of a time evaluating systems in surround mode. For me, I have the most success listening to stereo pairs of loudspeakers set up in a proper equilateral triangle... in a decent room. As the conditions deviate from that my ability to really know what I am hearing is significantly reduced.

Ummm widget.

I said that I set the system to MONO, meaning that the same content is coming equally out of both speakers and then got equally between them - tho about 5 feet out, forming a triangle- and listened THEN turned around - back to speakers- as to switch ears and listened again.

Do you know of any better method of comparing 1 changed speaker in a set of 2. ??

[scott fitlin]

my hearing is superb even at my age now. I can hear both lower and higher frequencies than most people. I think it is due to the fact that i am almost blind and detect sounds that are impossible for lots of people. REGARDS JIMSo is mine.

I, being a ride owner/operator, was taught from an early age on, to listen to the sound of things. You become familiar with YOUR equipment, and know the sound of your things when they are working correctly, when they arent, and when you hear something different. And I hear things no one else seems to. I dont think this makes my ears special, as much as Im just paying attention to things I hear.

The same things were taught to me about audio and speakers. To really listen, to KNOW your system, when it sounds right, and when it differs.

I dont doubt that SW hears a difference in his speakers by changing internal wiring. What the reasons for the differences are? Thats the part we can debate for years.

[SEAWOLF97]

You become familiar with YOUR equipment, and know the sound of your things when they are working correctly, when they arent, and when you hear something different. And I hear things no one else seems to. I dont think this makes my ears special, as much as Im just paying attention to things I hear.

Absolutely agree. I know what my house sounds like (and yes, houses make lots of interesting noises) and what my car sounds like and what my PC sounds like....etc.

Interesting (?) sidenote.... I was in a Huey squadron for a while. Got so tuned into their frequencies that I can hear them coming, even within a group of people where NO ONE else can hear it. Don't know if I'm getting vibes or what, but I can and do hear a Huey long before its in sight.

Have noticed that on the MASH TV show, they mention the same thing. They hear the medivac helos coming long before any guest can.

Loach71/Tim ?? do you have this same experience ??

[coherent_guy]

I have been seriously listening since the late '70s... your extra decade plus of experience most likely explains the difference. :D

But seriously, I'm glad you've been able to improve your speakers.


Widget


FWIW: I haven't found A/Bing left and right speakers to be a very useful technique for me. This may be due to the fact that I grew up listening to stereo... I also have a heck of a time evaluating systems in surround mode. For me, I have the most success listening to stereo pairs of loudspeakers set up in a proper equilateral triangle... in a decent room. As the conditions deviate from that my ability to really know what I am hearing is significantly reduced.

Widget and Seawolf,

I too must say that comparing L and R speakers doesn't work well for me. But I believe that is due to the source material being in stereo. It also depends on the source material itself and how (or when) it was recorded. I would liken it to viewing one image of a 3D picture composed of two images. A single image or audio channel is incomplete, it is the summation of the two images or audio channels that creates the complete visual or audio image. Even on simple material such as solo acoustic guitar that is recorded to reproduce as a center image between the speakers I find the two channels sound different. I am fortunate enough to have a dedicated listening room that is symetrically shaped, and the speakers are located away from walls and objects in the room, so I don't think the difference in sound is caused by the room acoustics.

Seawolf, I am not saying that your method of comparison is flawed or cannot work. I listen to music that tends to be reproduced in a so-called sound stage and the speakers disappear as the sources of sound. I have never owned omni-directional radiating speakers like your Ohms, but I am guessing that that trait makes the kind of comparison you are doing work well. Or have you used this method with conventional speakers and it works for you? What type of music were you using when comparing the L and R speakers, if you don't mind saying. For instance, I find classical orchestra music to sound much more similar between L and R channels than other music.

I am simply relating my experiences compared to others and trying to learn what works and doesn't work, and why. I've always thought my perception of a difference between L and R speakers sound as odd, and when I read Widget's description I felt better about my experiences.

Widget, I agree that evaluations in surround systems are the most difficult if not impossible. With different speakers and placements, how can one possibly evaluate anything except for the overall setup?

[coherent_guy]

Ummm widget.

I said that I set the system to MONO, meaning that the same content is coming equally out of both speakers and then got equally between them - tho about 5 feet out, forming a triangle- and listened THEN turned around - back to speakers- as to switch ears and listened again.

Do you know of any better method of comparing 1 changed speaker in a set of 2. ??

Oh Schlitz, just read this post, say no more, I get it! Your method is about as good as can be had. Of course my preamp has no mono switch, you lucky dog. . . er, wolf :banghead:

[SEAWOLF97]

Oh Schlitz, just read this post, say no more, I get it! Your method is about as good as can be had. Of course my preamp has no mono switch, you lucky dog. . . er, wolf :banghead:

the MONO switch is not some super feature, I really only use it to balance volume between speakers and for testing.

AGREED, it is extreemly difficult to compare speaker changes in a stereo or multi channel setup.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Do you mean I have to replace the copper wire in my 100 year old house too?;)

[SEAWOLF97]

Do you mean I have to replace the copper wire in my 100 year old house too?;)

I would, if original. Have friends that did. Fire hazzard, among other problems.

[Zilch]

Do you mean I have to replace the copper wire in my 100 year old house too?;)Not necessarily, but you should change the insulation on it. :thmbsup:

[Fire hazzard.... :p ]

[SEAWOLF97]

here is the rewire...

fuse block was on with hospital tape when I received, tried to glue it, but with vibes & pebble surface - no glue that I tried wud hold. loop of wire was contacting driver, maybe that was why prior owner sold, it made some noise. this view is from the backside, nothing shows.

[jim campbell]

Do you mean I have to replace the copper wire in my 100 year old house too?;)older houses have a wire wrapped with fabric and the insulation will usually crumble to dust when disturbed.the system is not usually grounded like the modern stuff and rodents and insects have been known to munch on the insulation.as well the way this system works makes repairs difficult as hot and neutral wires often travel in different directions from the same box.in addition boxes were often installed in the floor and as folks did not have all the modern toys available now the sixty amp service most of these buildings were equipped with have been upgraded to at least 100 amp but usually 200 amp

[SEAWOLF97]

Do you mean I have to replace the copper wire in my 100 year old house too?;)

jeez, go pickup a 50 y.o. elect appliance and see the wire insulation crumble and fray. Thats downright modern next to your 100 y.o. wiring. They didn't have romex in 1907 ?

thats 100 years of flexing , swaying in the wind..etc. You live in Missouri ? heat and humidity ? all you need is 1 fray short out of the whole house to start a fire.

IMHO , you are risking your family's life every day that you live with that old wire.

If I bought a 100 y.o. house, I wud rewire before I moved in. :(

[Thom]

Why hasn't someone decided it's a wonder that wire lasts as long as it does, as fast as electrons go?

Actually electrons go much slower than the speed of light it's just the wave that goes that fast.

If oxidation on the outside of the conductors was a problem wouldn't powertransmission line have a covering instead of being bare.

They change transformers because insulation brakes down and because they develop more efficient designs.

Far be it from me to dash any perfectly good theories with some lousy old facts. Cheers.

[Thom]

here is the rewire...

fuse block was on with hospital tape when I received, tried to glue it, but with vibes - no glue wud hold. loop of wire was contacting driver, maybe that was why prior owner sold, it made some noise. this view is from the backside, nothing shows.

I can't imagine E6000 not holding. Also called Goop. Made by eclectic products.

[Rolf]

Of course speaker wires get old. Do we get any younger?:p

[coherent_guy]

the MONO switch is not some super feature, I really only use it to balance volume between speakers and for testing.

AGREED, it is extreemly difficult to compare speaker changes in a stereo or multi channel setup.

It is a super feature if you don't have one! At least when you need it. You can accomplish the same thing with a Y cable to combine the channels into one, but if you don't have at least two sets of outputs on the preamp you are SOL.

Interesting picture. But I'm confused, your new wire plugs into the banana jacks, correct? I see the lugs on the jacks, and the fuse holder, but don't see any wire on them. Where are the voice coil leads connected? Or is this a picture before the job was complete?

Even epoxy wouldn't hold? The straps work fine and let you change things if you like, I'd use those and be done with it. What is the amp rating of the fuse, and what is the impedance of that critter?

But OMG, you don't have gold plated contacts on those bananas, what a compromise! ;) I've even heard of some wire that is made of an alloy with gold in it, that just might justify it's wild price!!

Sorry, but seeing the Walsh driver in place looks pretty damn weird! That it works well may be even more weird. Just pickin' on ya :p

[scott fitlin]

Why hasn't someone decided it's a wonder that wire lasts as long as it does, as fast as electrons go?


If oxidation on the outside of the conductors was a problem wouldn't powertransmission line have a covering instead of being bare.



Far be it from me to dash any perfectly good theories with some lousy old facts. Cheers.Lets look at this from another point of veiw.

Metals age, and become brittle and fissured over time, thats a fact. Metals used for aluminum diaphragms age, and dont sound as good as when they are new, and get periodically changed, even though, technically, they still work.

Bridge steel has to be flouroscoped and x-rayed every so many years, and they find cracks, fissures, and wear unseeable by the naked eye, and change pieces of steel accordingly.

Why couldnt the same hold true for electric wire? In an enviroment with seasonal changes, winter, summer, etc, the climate changes could cause some kind of chemical reaction over years of heating up and cooling down, expanding and contracting.

BTW, Thom, thanks for writing in paragraphs, much easier to read your posts now! :applaud:

[jim campbell]

exactly.but most speaker wire applications do not expose wire to the elements,therefore no expansion and contraction,and they usually bear no load.most of the problems with wire occur at the connectors or from pinching or bending tightly enough to disturb the strands.

[SEAWOLF97]

Interesting picture. But I'm confused, your new wire plugs into the banana jacks, correct? I see the lugs on the jacks, and the fuse holder, but don't see any wire on them. Where are the voice coil leads connected? Or is this a picture before the job was complete?

this is complete and functioning. I'll try to get a pic from different angle. there are leads from the pos and from fuse block straight into the cone.

Even epoxy wouldn't hold?

I could mix up some Arcon, just liked the flexibility of being able to move or replace it in the future.

The straps work fine and let you change things if you like, I'd use those and be done with it. What is the amp rating of the fuse, and what is the impedance of that critter?

It is 4 ohm, sometimes dips to 2 or even 1.

factory sent them out with 4A fuses. On the company presidents suggestion, I went on a fuse blowing escapade. Started with 1.5A, blew that ..then 2A.., 3A ended up the magic number of the lowest that is usable , but wont constantly blow.

But OMG, you don't have gold plated contacts on those bananas, what a compromise!

factory plugs. GP bananas are on their way from PE as I type.

Sorry, but seeing the Walsh driver in place looks pretty damn weird! That it works well may be even more weird.

my friend thinks it looks like something from NASA when the tents are off.



:applaud:

[jim campbell]

i wonder if anyone will run with that design again.what are the pros and cons besides the expense of the material?

[scott fitlin]

exactly.but most speaker wire applications do not expose wire to the elements,therefore no expansion and contraction,and they usually bear no load.most of the problems with wire occur at the connectors or from pinching or bending tightly enough to disturb the strands.Its just a suggestion. I know very well that wire in a home application isnt subject to as brutal conditions as commercial or outdoor stuff. But, even still, there may be a chemical reaction taking place just from being used ( current passing through the wire ) and the process of aging that occurs regardless.

I dont know what actually takes place, but, I do know that even I change interconnects every one or two years, and even with cleaning connections, and connectors, for some reason, new interconnects sound seem to sound fresher, a little more zip!

Just a thought.

[SEAWOLF97]

i wonder if anyone will run with that design again.what are the pros and cons besides the expense of the material?

patent was 1972. they last for 28 years in the US. So I think if someone wanted to ....

German Physiks is the only company that I know still producing the Walsh design, but those cost nearly as much as your Wilsons .

[SEAWOLF97]

Sorry, but seeing the Walsh driver in place looks pretty damn weird! That it works well may be even more weird. Just pickin' on ya :p

I kinda like them w/o tents, but the OL doesnt and she did accept them into the house, which I thot wud be a struggle, since they are about 20x20x46

[Mr. Widget]

I doubt we have to concern ourselves with mechanical aging, oxidation however it is very obvious with some wire and is certainly evident to some degree with almost all wire.

There is one proactive solution however. I mentioned that I would be using "magic wire" for the internal wiring on a pair of speakers that I am currently finishing up.... the client ordered the wire from Cardas and it just arrived... it outwardly looks like standard multi-stranded 14 ga wire... however it is special. It is litz wire. This means that each fine strand has a clear enamel coating baked on it... this effectively hermetically seals the copper and while I am skeptical about this wire sounding better today than any other good quality copper wire, I can certainly imagine that down the road it will continue to perform as it does today. Other wire may not.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

I would certainly like to hear your opinion as to whether or not you actually hear a difference using this " Magic Wire ".

I was looking at the Cardas website, I must say they do have interesting items.

They have an SE speaker cable, designed for horn loaded speakers of 100db efficiency or more. I wouldnt know if this actually works, but their technical explanation of why it does, makes for interesting reading and thought.

[SEAWOLF97]

... it outwardly looks like standard multi-stranded 14 ga wire... however it is special. It is litz wire. This means that each fine strand has a clear enamel coating baked on it... this effectively hermetically seals the copper
Widget

so how do you strip it to make connections ?

[Mr. Widget]

so how do you strip it to make connections ?There is a standard plastic jacket on the outside. You need a solder pot to burn off the enamel coating and tin the leads.


Widget

[Zilch]

Copper is considered a "Noble" metal.

Overhead transmission lines are mostly aluminum.

Copper distribution lines are insulated....

[gannetpeak1]

Good answers, all, but overly complicated. The new wire is much larger, thus, has inherently lower resistance.

[Thom]

Copper is considered a "Noble" metal.

Overhead transmission lines are mostly aluminum.

Copper distribution lines are insulated....

Copper distribution lines are not insulated. The ampacity of a given gage of wire. (actually that size wire is measured in mcm or kcm 250 being the next size up from 0000) is greatest if it is bare as it dissipates heat best this way. The reason for going to aluminum is that a conductor of the same ampacity is lighter and also larger in size and will dissipate heat better than the equivalent copper wire even though copper conducts heat better than aluminum.
When transmission lines come down off the pole they get insulated and it's rather complex how its done so as to avoid corona. There is a semi conducting layer between the conductor and the insulation and a grounded shielded layer between the insulation and outer jacket.

[coherent_guy]

i wonder if anyone will run with that design again.what are the pros and cons besides the expense of the material?

See my post under "Dumb Tech Questions" . . .

Oh what the heck, here's a link to someone that uses it now:

http://www.german-physiks.com/

Seawolf, excellent picture, all has been revealed, thanks! Ya needs to replace those little jumper wires on the fuse holder and get $30 gold/silver fuses ya know. . .

I think we're gonna get kicked off this forum pretty soon. . . Walsh :blah:

[SEAWOLF97]

what are the pros and cons besides the expense of the material?

I think solid titanium is popular priced these days. in the 70's it was kinda expensive. In fact, I dont know anyone else who was using it back then. :blink:

[coherent_guy]

so how do you strip it to make connections ?

The technique of preparing Cardas litz cables is to remove the outer insulation which is teflon in most cases, and any filler or air tubes, and then dip the exposed but enameled conductors into a solder pot of molten solder.

That has the necessary temperature to burn off the enamel coating. I've heard of tinning with a very hot soldering iron as an alternate method.

Some of the DIY retailers that sell Cardas hook-up wire will tin the ends of the wire, for a fee of course :biting:

I use Cardas cable in my main system, both speaker and interconnect cables. I have what is called "300B Microtwin", "Quadlink", and "Cross" cables, classified as entry level to upper mid-line. Not cheap, let me tell ya.

I like them very much, they are all double shielded except the speaker cable, I have no hum at all and the system is very quiet, even on speakers using LE85's and 075's, but they are padded down some to approx. 98 db @ 1 watt/meter.

[DanMan]

I bought some Woods Professional Speaker Wire (12 gauge) about 15 years ago at the local hardware store (now outta business) I think you can still get the wire at places though.

Anyway, the wire (about 100' section) has turned completely green throughout the section. Its almost iridescent, looks like trijicon (the color of depleted uranium!) It nearly glows in the dark.

I keep the wire for my 'wall of shame' - I should hook it up to my defunct rack of equipment just for grins - but it'd probably rust the whole system out!

[Zilch]

Creatively hyped, you could get big bucks for that "glow in the dark" speaker wire. :thmbsup:

["Aged" prime rib, anyone? ;) ]

[Steve Schell]

I can see it now, the Fission Reference speaker cable, $3,000 per foot, the only wire that doesn't require a power amplifier. Attractive lead shielding included.

[scott fitlin]

Creatively hyped, you could get big bucks for that "glow in the dark" speaker wire. :thmbsup:

["Aged" prime rib, anyone? ;) ]:applaud:

The new audio craze for the 21st century! Hyper pure, ultra low hysterics, and 100% oygen free " AGED" , copper cable.

[Hoerninger]

:applaud:
" AGED" , copper cable.
Real time aged - is that said correct?
___________
Peter

[scott fitlin]

Real time aged - is that said correct?
___________
PeterYeah, thats it! :thmbsup:

[SEAWOLF97]

is there any real studies of different speaker wires ? not just anecdotal experiences ?

[Mannermusic]

Like X X states, wire especially copper wire, oxidizes, and as it oxidizes its resistance changes, slightly. If the oxidation becomes bad enough it could compromise signal flow, possibly at different frequencies, Im not sure.

But, they say, and have been saying for eons, clean your connections once a year, and many people swear after they clean their connections, and connectors, they hear a difference.

On another type of wire application, I had to replace a run from the circuit breaker to the switch pedal of one of my bumper cars this winter. My cars are 34 years old, and the wire I replaced was about 25yrs old. Anyway, I ordered 8ga stranded DC power cable from an electrical supply, did the work, and when I tested the car out, I thought it was running faster. Usually, clutch and subsequent clutch adjustment and the ride operating voltage determines speed and torque. A week later, we were testing and running cars, and one of my guys, who wasnt here when I rewired the car rode it, and said number 12 seemed faster. All I had done was replace a 4, maybe 5 ft run from the breaker to the cars pedal switch. So, maybe wire does get old and resistance does build up enough over years to impede current flow.

Could be, as I said, I replaced a power carrying cable on a bumper car, and with no other adjustments, or motor work, I thought the car moved faster.
Connections, connections, connections! People are blowing $$$ for exotic gear and hear a difference when they hook it up - probably because they replaced/cleaned the connectors at the same time! Seen it for 30 years. Clean the connections at least once per year, better 6 months if you have old gear. Tube sockets too! I keep a 55 gal drum of deox in the closet for on-going cleanings. Time consuming, pain in the back side. First clue is when side to side balance goes strange or general/intermittant loss of clarity and signal. The more complex the system the worse. Everything interacts. Negative synergy. Tri-amp owners beware - not sure it is worth it and the older it all gets the worse it gets. RCA connectors stink. There are no RCA connectors in any engineering/science lab for good reason! Baffles me why the hi fi industry did not adopt quality connectors back in 1950. Phil Marchand, Rochester, N.Y., is one quality gear supplier who offers his gear with balanced connectors (XLR, etc.). My local JBL pro shop agrees 100%.:blink:

[Steve Schell]

Mannermusic, I agree that connectors are a major problem. Allen Wright, who wrote the Super Cables Cookbook, had a great idea. He suggested that if a person was happy with his system and didn't anticipate making changes for a long time then the entire system could be hardwired together, eliminating connectors completely.

[scott fitlin]

Connections, connections, connections! People are blowing $$$ for exotic gear and hear a difference when they hook it up - probably because they replaced/cleaned the connectors at the same time! Seen it for 30 years. Clean the connections at least once per year, better 6 months if you have old gear. Tube sockets too! I keep a 55 gal drum of deox in the closet for on-going cleanings. Time consuming, pain in the back side. First clue is when side to side balance goes strange or general/intermittant loss of clarity and signal. The more complex the system the worse. Everything interacts. Negative synergy. Tri-amp owners beware - not sure it is worth it and the older it all gets the worse it gets. RCA connectors stink. There are no RCA connectors in any engineering/science lab for good reason! Baffles me why the hi fi industry did not adopt quality connectors back in 1950. Phil Marchand, Rochester, N.Y., is one quality gear supplier who offers his gear with balanced connectors (XLR, etc.). My local JBL pro shop agrees 100%.:blink:Yeah, but XLR connectors tarnish and oxidize too. They pins are on the inside of the XLR shell, but are not impervious to oxidation.

Now, my electrical connections for bumper car machinery. Well, I burnish contacts, as well as chemically clean them, and yes, cleaning connectors does work. But, IMHO, isnt the entire story.

Sometimes, replacing a wire works wonders with no obvious rhyme or reason as to why!

[coherent_guy]

Connections, connections, connections!

cut
.
.
.
Baffles me why the hi fi industry did not adopt quality connectors back in 1950. Phil Marchand, Rochester, N.Y., is one quality gear supplier who offers his gear with balanced connectors (XLR, etc.). My local JBL pro shop agrees 100%.:blink:

I certainly agree, about connections and connectors, though the why is likely simply $$, and the problem of the average consumer being intimidated with anything different. Considering that Neutric XLR connectors with silver or gold plated contacts can be had for less $ than most high quality RCAs, the price argument is really moot. My less technically oriented audio buddies are all intimidated by the few balanced connectors I have in my system, much to my surprise.

Manufactuers are also afraid to do anything different when it comes to connectors, with a few rare exceptions. The only ones I can think of are original Mark Levinson products that used "Lemo" connectors, from the Swiss Lemo company, also made by Camac (??) which I cannot describe beyond the name. Also the British firm Naim uses DIN connectors on their products, but provides adaptors for cables and now has RCAs on their products in some cases.

Wasn't there a standardized connection for tape decks that used DIN connectors? I have an old Marantz preamp that has those. Seems that sometimes a standard can be agreed upon.