Gear for Storm

[sourceoneaudio]

Storm,
Here is a killer deal on some Nakamichi gear. I sell the amps alone for $550.00 plus depending on the condition.
The preamp new retailed for $800.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nakamichi-PA-5-Power-Amp-CA-5-Preamplifier_W0QQitemZ200082362184QQihZ010QQcatego ryZ39783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This will get your Altec's sounding smooth. Little better that 12.5 watts per channel.

J/S-S1A :blink:

[JBLRaiser]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250085073184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dynaco-PAS-3-Tube-PreAmp-Factory-Wired_W0QQitemZ270091164680QQihZ017QQcategoryZ1497 4QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Power and tube sound

[Storm]

Storm,
Here is a killer deal on some Nakamichi gear. I sell the amps alone for $550.00 plus depending on the condition.
The preamp new retailed for $800.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nakamichi-PA-5-Power-Amp-CA-5-Preamplifier_W0QQitemZ200082362184QQihZ010QQcatego ryZ39783QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This will get your Altec's sounding smooth. Little better that 12.5 watts per channel.

J/S-S1A :blink:

Thank you, but 12.5 watts per channel is more than enough to handle the Altecs.

If you doubt me, come listen...

-Storm.

[loach71]

Thank you, but 12.5 watts per channel is more than enough to handle the Altecs.

If you doubt me, come listen...

-Storm.

Suggest you look at Drew Daniels' ultimate speaker system on this board. He makes some pointed comments about power requirements that may change your mind about only needing 12.5 watts rms...

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/drews-clues.htm

Enjoy the horns!
Hope this helps somewhat. :)

[SEAWOLF97]

Storm,
Here is a killer deal on some Nakamichi gear.
This will get your Altec's sounding smooth. Little better that 12.5 watts per channel.

J/S-S1A :blink:

You guys dont seem to get that S is in audio nirvana already. The amp is perfect and the speakers are perfect. He's said a couple of times that he's happy where he is and doesnt want any critical advice unless you have heard his fine system.

[Storm]

You guys dont seem to get that S is in audio nirvana already. The amp is perfect and the speakers are perfect. He's said a couple of times that he's happy where he is and doesnt want any critical advice unless you have heard his fine system.

You are correct. If it aint' broke, then why fix?

Jeez...

-Storm.

[louped garouv]

you can always go back,
if you decide you liked it that way better.....


http://www.maniacworld.com/darth-vader-without-the-mask.jpg

[louped garouv]

by the way, I am not advocating any of the gear that is being suggested currently....

I went Early Monolithic Industrial, and have a "commercial, "PA type" system"....

I do have ALtec 1" compression drivers, and a pair of 515Bs working tho'

[Ian Mackenzie]

Storm,

While I appreciate your 12.5 watts of bliss the illusion that 12.5 watts is enough to do justice to all genres is a simply not real.

The Naka's where a cut above the average breed of amp back then.

When you are ready to step up to the plate consider building a Aleph clone like an A60.

I think Guido will agree there is no going back once you try them.

Ian

[Storm]

What is the exact difference/change that I will hear going with more watts?

Please explain...

Thanks.

-Storm

[spwal]

I am a wholehearted advocate of alephs and aleph clones. i tried a bunch of stuff... nothing got it right like the aleph. I wish it had more power...


http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1176223427


This pair of Alephs will blow your pants off. check this review http://cygnus.ipal.org/mirror/www.passlabs.com/a0stphle.htm



Storm,

While I appreciate your 12.5 watts of bliss the illusion that 12.5 watts is enough to do justice to all genres is a simply not real.

The Naka's where a cut above the average breed of amp back then.

When you are ready to step up to the plate consider building a Aleph clone like an A60.

I think Guido will agree there is no going back once you try them.

Ian

[spwal]

............google.............

What is the exact difference/change that I will hear going with more watts?

Please explain...

Thanks.

-Storm

[Ian Mackenzie]

What is the exact difference/change that I will hear going with more watts?

Please explain...

Thanks.

-Storm

Well in your case you might not hear the difference so I can't make a definite claim that it will be better.

But as a rule the amp will contol the speaker better, you will have more dynamic range (rather than soft clipping of the valves) and it will have lower distortion.

Low power valve amps are not what I would call a perfect voltage source. Its a bit like the tail wagging the dog. Particularly if the speaker impedance varies to a degree which it would. On account of that the bass you are hearing is a free lunch in that its a product of the amp reacting with the load. Then there are the highs?

I could go on but I have to attend a weekly religous ceremony at the Espy
There's only one God and he Black. I doubt if he would approve of being played on a measly 12.5 watts!

http://www.jimihendrix.com/

[Storm]

I know I can google it, but I want to hear the opinions.

So, if it won't sound better - why do I need to expell more money on something I don't need?

Am I missing something here? Zilch...you here?

:banghead:

-Storm.

[hjames]

Well, in your case, you might not hear the difference so I can't make a definite claim that it will be better..



So, if it won't sound better - why do I need to expel more money on something I don't need?


I think I can safely say he was having you on, mate (but in a most polite way).

He said that extra power DOES matter, but he suspects you might not hear it as your ears are, perhaps, not trained enough to hear the difference.

Frankly, you are both right - when I bought equipment in my youth, I would do an A/B audio test and, if I couldn't hear a significant difference, there was absolutely no reason to spend more money. Thats generally a good rule to follow. Save your money for fast cars and pretty women (??). Buy gear to enjoy the music, not impress the neighbors and friends with your keen badges.


Audio File - click below to Play

[Titanium Dome]

I could go on but I have to attend a weekly religous ceremony at the Espy
There's only one God and he Black. I doubt if he would approve of being played on a measly 12.5 watts!

http://www.jimihendrix.com/

Amen, brother. That's a religion I could follow. Hell, the lightning that came out of Jimi had more than 12.5W in it.

[Hoerninger]

Amen, brother. That's a religion I could follow. Hell, the lightning that came out of Jimi had more than 12.5W in it.
Clean unrestricted sound ... nature is always generous and dissipative.
___________
Peter

[SEAWOLF97]

Clean unrestricted sound ... nature is always generous and dissipative.
___________
Peter

amazing what he did with all analog 1960s technology.

[sourceoneaudio]

What is the exact difference/change that I will hear going with more watts?

Please explain...

Thanks.

-Storm

Why bother, you don't listen to anyone anyway.

Thank you, but 12.5 watts per channel is more than enough to handle the Altecs.

If you doubt me, come listen...

-Storm.

Also, since when does wattage handle speakers? Speakers handle power, and in the real world 12.5 watts is not enough to drive any 15" woofer correctly, I don't care how efficient. It is always better to have more power than not enough. You will probably cause more damage to them in the long run running them with such little power. The odds of you running the amp into clipping are very high, and I'm sure there is someone else on e-bay that could use your money when you need to buy replacement drivers.

J/S-S1A :banghead:

[jim3860]

I used to use a 110wpc sony DA5-ES receiver to run my mains, It was a nice receiver but.
for me i cant not go back to anything less than 200wpc its not that any of my speakers need that much power but they all sound better with more power. i can only crank up my speakers to a certain level before my ears start to bleed, and i can reach that level before 200 watts are used. but even at very low levels my speakers sound better with 200wpc or more.

the bass is enhanced at low levels. And with certain albums that have bass that dips down to 2 ohms pretty quick and stays there for a little while. the music doesnt sound strained but remains vibrant and alive. my advice to you storm is this..... beg, borrow, steal a buddys 200 wpc amp or larger. listen to it for a little while, then decide for yourself if there is enough of an improvement to justify buying a larger amp.

I suggest trying something like roger waters live to audition both the amp and your receiver with. It has on certain tracks a large amount of deep bass that goes very low. BTW ive seen your receiver and its quite the looker very impressive. REGARDS JIM

[soundboy]

I agree totally. For live sound and home...although I only have 100 watts for my top end 3 way dynaudios, and 600 watts for a JBL 2245, the same speakers with 60 watts on top, and 200 watts sound a lot thinner, "smaller" and less real, even at low levels, well below clipping.
Going from three 500 watt per channel amps, to three 1500 watt per channel amps in a three way live rig....was the same experience.....as long as it is good quality power. I won't mention which amplifier brands, because everybody gets all lovy dovy and personal, and starts saying they all sound the same anyway. Unless of course they are 30 years old, then they are better:blink:

[SEAWOLF97]

I just got done dragging all that 12ga wire under the house (ewww, yucky) to wire up my "B" set , the 4410s.
I always loved them. Had always run them on the Marantz 30wpc receiver or goofy Denon receiver.
With the new wiring they are for the first time now running from the BWG 250d. (much more power). I had to throttle back ALL settings, on the speakers and preamp. They gained high and lows - dynamic range- YES, despite S's "feelings" to the contrary,, the JBL's gained A LOT when paired up with more power. :bouncy:

[JBLRaiser]

I just got done dragging all that 12ga wire under the house (ewww, yucky) to wire up my "B" set , the 4410s.
I always loved them. Had always run them on the Marantz 30wpc receiver or goofy Denon receiver.
With the new wiring they are for the first time now running from the BWG 250d. (much more power). I had to throttle back ALL settings, on the speakers and preamp. They gained high and lows - dynamic range- YES, despite S's "feelings" to the contrary,, the JBL's gained A LOT when paired up with more power. :bouncy:

A small amp is like a water hose cleaning a muddy four wheeler. It will get the surface dirt and do an alright job, but if you want to reach everything and miss nothing, you need a pressure washer.

[SEAWOLF97]

A small amp is like a water hose cleaning a muddy four wheeler. It will get the surface dirt and do an alright job, but if you want to reach everything and miss nothing, you need a pressure washer.

absolutly correct. he just doesnt have enuff experience to understand this.

[Storm]

absolutly correct. he just doesnt have enuff experience to understand this.

Experience? What experience do you have?

I have more lack of money than lack of experience...trust me.

;)

-Storm.

[sourceoneaudio]

True, but I like the Walnut Veneer and the sculpted original foam grilles. I also like the fact that the tweeters are already mounted. If not, I would have had to do everything including hooking them up and getting additional wire. I have no clue how to hook up tweeters, even if I had help on this forum. Technical stuff is not my forte', but I wish it was. I am definately envious to all of the DIY'ers.


-Storm.



Experience? What experience do you have?

I have more lack of money than lack of experience...trust me. :blah:

;)

-Storm.

Your lack of experience is evident in the above quote. Second looks like we have a huge OXY-MORON here!!!!!!!!!!!

Your walnut comment is the best. We all though Birch was your wood God, now it's a Walnut tree?????????

J/S-S1A :p

[SEAWOLF97]

Experience? What experience do you have?

I have more lack of money than lack of experience...trust me.

;)

-Storm.

storm

Its posts like the above that will get you labeled you a doofus on this forum.

So, WHY DID you get kicked off the Altec forum ??

[JBLRaiser]

storm

Its posts like the above that will get you labeled you a doofus on this forum.


So, WHY DID you get kicked off the Altec forum ??

More like JacKGoff. No disrespect intended, Jack.

[Tom Brennan]

I've run highly efficient horn and horn-direct radiator combos with many kinds of amps from flea-watt SETs up to 200 wpc SS, and that's including Tri-Paths, SIs and a diy gain-clones too. So I've some experience here.

IMO one can get quite satisfactory sound from low powered amps with such speakers. Dynamics may suffer though, much depends on one's need for volume and on the room size. And mind that a set of Vals with 12wpc will have far better dynamics than normal hi-fi type speakers with a couple of hundred watts will.

One of the nicest things about using high efficiency speakers is that it gets the power monkey off your back and allows you to pick an amp for it's tonality and texture rather than it's power.

The Model Nineteens in my HT are driven by 30 watts each Tri-Path and there is sufficient power for the dynamic needs of those speakers in that room.

My Heathkit AS-21s are in a very large living room and driven by about 60 watts of PP tube power. Again all the dynamics and volume I need.

In my bedroom I have 605As driven by either 12 wpc PP tubes or a 15wpc channel gain-clone, depending on my whims. Do any of you fellas really think I need 250 wpc in my bedroom? With 605s?

I'm not arguing against high power but making the argument that one can get very satisfactory sound with low to moderate power and the right speakers.

[SEAWOLF97]

Do any of you fellas really think I need 250 wpc in my bedroom?

is your intention to "shake the house" as sturm has stated many times ?

[Tom Brennan]

SW---No, to shake the house might take more power, I'm not sure though, they might do a little shakin' with 15 watts each, I think I can get a quiver.

[JBLRaiser]

I've run highly efficient horn and horn-direct radiator combos with many kinds of amps from flea-watt SETs up to 200 wpc SS, and that's including Tri-Paths, SIs and a diy gain-clones too. So I've some experience here.

IMO one can get quite satisfactory sound from low powered amps with such speakers. Dynamics may suffer though, much depends on one's need for volume and on the room size. And mind that a set of Vals with 12wpc will have far better dynamics than normal hi-fi type speakers with a couple of hundred watts will.

One of the nicest things about using high efficiency speakers is that it gets the power monkey off your back and allows you to pick an amp for it's tonality and texture rather than it's power.

The Model Nineteens in my HT are driven by 30 watts each Tri-Path and there is sufficient power for the dynamic needs of those speakers in that room.

My Heathkit AS-21s are in a very large living room and driven by about 60 watts of PP tube power. Again all the dynamics and volume I need.

In my bedroom I have 605As driven by either 12 wpc PP tubes or a 15wpc channel gain-clone, depending on my whims. Do any of you fellas really think I need 250 wpc in my bedroom? With 605s?

I'm not arguing against high power but making the argument that one can get very satisfactory sound with low to moderate power and the right speakers.

Some are bigger than others.

[kingjames]

I've heard this many times before, that amps are rated at minimum power and speakers are rated at maximum power.Maybe his amp is rated at 12.5 but is really delivering 30 watts or 40 watts rms. What you think?

[sourceoneaudio]

Here is another simple analogy for him to dwell on. It is like hooking up component drivers in a car to deck power. (receiver) That low of power will never, ever give him what the speaker system really needs to come in good and expose what the array is capable of doing.
Good luck in the to low power world. Storm you have stated in other threads you can shake the house with your gear, and you love the bass they reproduce. In the real world that description is impossible with 12.5 watts. It would help if you get out more and really sit down and listen to gear that does the above, and you will sit back, look and say I was really full of :bs: !!!!!!

I'll say it again, good luck in to low power world.

J/S-S1A :bouncy:

[Tom Brennan]

Well I cranked my 605s tonight (I haven't cranked them in years) with my 15wpc gain-clone. Long before house shaking volumes could be reached the amp was in VERY bad distress (I'd turned the tweeters down and the treble on the pre-amp too). Note that the 605 woofers are very similar to 416s, the woofer used in Valencias.

It may be that this amp is simply really bad past it's limits and only good within it's performence window because I don't recall the tube amps I'd previously used with the 605s going to Hell in such a dramatic fashion. And the amp sounds very good before it goes to pieces.

In any event it seems that 15 wpc ain't a shakin' my house tonight. I'll try tubes later.

[SEAWOLF97]

Maybe his amp is rated at 12.5 but is really delivering 30 watts or 40 watts rms. What you think?

Maybe my truck thats rated at 16mpg is really delivering 35mpg ? :bs:

[spwal]

my aleph mini clone gives a cautious 12-15 wpc. together with my melos sha-1 preamp (OUTSTANDING PREAMP) i get room shaking volumes at lesss than half throtte.

I would like to dabble in higher wattage amps, because the uberhifi store where i poke around at from time to time only has big watt amps. they have incredible finesse. I want that low end texture and detail, and I want explosive dynamics.

nervous to shell out that kind of money for big power amps, mostly because the market is favoring lower powered tube amps at the moment.

[Storm]

Thank you for the suggestions.

I just purchased a Harman/Kardon 3470, 100 watt per channel - 2 channel receiver off CL.

Hooked it up and yes, more power is better. I will still keep the Altec 704 receiver in case I get a pair of Altec bookshelf speakers (the ones with the horns). ;)

Is this receiver better? Anyone?...

-Storm

[jackgiff]

After all the razzing you took from people who most likely have never even heard an Altec 704 powering a pair of Valencias, you go and pop for some more power, you decide it is good, and then you ask everyone for some more input.

You are so easy!!! But you bought the wrong kind of power, according to all those guys razzing you. Didn't you hear all the good stuff about Aleph's, Nakamichi's, Dyna's, clones, tubes ETC from all those guys???? That kind of stuff costs a lot more money than the HK you bought.

Who cares what the other guys think? Get some backbone.

Wanna buy a bridge?

[hjames]

I don't personally know that unit (is it a current model, or ... what year?)
but I currently have an HK CD changer in my system, bought used mainly because it has HDCD decoder circuitry and I have maybe 40-50 CDs that were made in that format (without the decoder they are just normal discs)
Seems like a nice unit - but it does do a brief digital stutter sometimes on the first track of a disc. But - it was something like $70, used. Sounds good on regular CDs and HDCDs.

I also currently have an HK Citation 22 power amp running the subwoofer I got a few weeks ago. Works very nice - but its harder to hear noise in a sub amp than it would be when used on higher frequency drivers, so I can't make a any real comment on fidelity.

Based on those two HK pieces I have, I'd say HK gear is nice for the price.
I've also been looking at their top of the line HK AVR 7300 receiver. Its a real high end 7.1 home theatre and music control center with presets for all your A/V sources, in and outs. Sounds like a nice unit but not available for a listening test anywhere near me.

Do you like the sound you got from the change?
Thats really the important thing.
When you listen at night, the fanboys are all gone and its just you and your music ...

Thank you for the suggestions.

I just purchased a Harman/Kardon 3470, 100 watt per channel - 2 channel receiver off CL.

Hooked it up and yes, more power is better. I will still keep the Altec 704 receiver in case I get a pair of Altec bookshelf speakers (the ones with the horns). ;)

Is this receiver better? Anyone?...

-Storm

[louped garouv]

don't forget the hospital grade outlets Storm.... ;)


if you are on the hunt for a pair of Altec Bookshelf speakers, I have a pair of Altec 890A Boleros that are not being used currently....

PM me if interested....

they have some issues, but are not too bad.... could be a "fun" intro to refurbing vintage cabinets.....

and yeah, if you are happier, that's all that matters.....

[SEAWOLF97]

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-Audio-Video-Receiver/dp/B000051SDT

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/receivers/harman-kardon/PRD_125732_1593crx.aspx

[sourceoneaudio]

You are so easy!!! But you bought the wrong kind of power, according to all those guys razzing you. Didn't you hear all the good stuff about Aleph's, Nakamichi's, Dyna's, clones, tubes ETC from all those guys???? That kind of stuff costs a lot more money than the HK you bought.

Who cares what the other guys think? Get some backbone.

Wanna buy a bridge?

Like I said before, he does not listen to good advice.:nutz: I also guess he missed the whole subject on separates/components from us. The direction/gear I pointed him too, with the very low BIN would have been the best thing for him to do, $2000.00 bucks worth of gear for $450.00. Having specs that will hold their own for many years to come.

I also have a hot air balloon for sale to go along with bridge that Jack has for sale, want it to?

J/S-S1A :blink:

[jackgiff]

Who cares what the other guys think? Get some backbone.My quote does not mean I think you guys are right. Have you heard an Altec receiver driving a pair of Altec Valencia's? Or do you simply read the numbers?

If Storms system pleases Storm, why should you care?

[spwal]

I cant believe you bought a harmon kardon after all that we mentioned. im done.

[loach71]

I have a Harmon Kardon Citation 16 power amp and Citation 11 preamp that were used to drive a pair of Altec 19s. The system worked beautifully.
This gear can be acquired on EBay for not much money -- and it will nicely complement the Altec 19s. Good sound without hemorrhaging big dollars.

[SEAWOLF97]

I just purchased a Harman/Kardon 3470, 100 watt per channel - 2 channel receiver off CL.

Is this receiver better? Anyone?...

-Storm

actually it is a "Harman Kardon 3470 Audio/Video Receiver" .
not really a 2 channel. Just a HT receiver with nasty DSP. (see reviews)

got a newish HK CD player that looked great. Didnt work, opened it up...cheap China crap. Cut off the power cord, pulled knobs and tossed.

[loach71]

I like the OLD H/K gear made in Plainview NY (I also modded some HK Citation 12 power amps according to Nelson Pass' instructions and they came out great!)-- almost as much as I like the late 70s early 80s BGW gear. This gear is not the stratospheric "ultra-fidelity" gear that some folks like -- but on the other hand they are good, solid performers.

[jim3860]

Thank you for the suggestions.

I just purchased a Harman/Kardon 3470, 100 watt per channel - 2 channel receiver off CL.

Hooked it up and yes, more power is better. I will still keep the Altec 704 receiver in case I get a pair of Altec bookshelf speakers (the ones with the horns). ;)

Is this receiver better? Anyone?...

-Storm Your welcome storm. Is this receiver better? Well only you can tell us that. Personally I think its a step in the right direction. It has more power and it has preouts which are a plus. I know that sometimes you can only afford to take small steps in audio. thats ok. as long as you feel you are going in the right direction and your happy thats all that matters.

I still think at some point it would be nice to upgrade to seperates but instead of buying another amp right away borrow one with 200wpc or more plug into your preouts then consider the result to see if you like the improvement. If you do then save till you can afford a decent entry level amp. adcom GFA-555 - carver TFM-35 etc can be had for $300.00 to $450.00 range and is more than enough for most people. Then perhaps save for a decent 2 channel preamp. Eventually you will get to where you want to be and have fun doing it also. REGARDS SNOW

[SEAWOLF97]

I cant believe you bought a harmon kardon after all that we mentioned. im done.

spwal - give it up. storm's got so much experience that our opinions are not needed.

Experience? What experience do you have?

I have more lack of money than lack of experience...trust me.
;)
-Storm.

[grumpy]

Geez, cut him a -little- slack. I wish I had the gear he does when I was
his age.

"You can do it your own way, if it's done just how I say"

-grumpy

[JBLRaiser]

spwal - give it up. storm's got so much experience that our opinions are not needed.

he watches TV while listening to his speakers. Hence the A/V.:p

[hjames]

he watches TV while listening to his speakers. Hence the A/V.:p

Is that any worse than listening to Howeird Stern on a Paragon?

he he he he

[JBLRaiser]

Is that any worse than listening to Howeird Stern on a Paragon?

he he he he

Not in my lifetime:no:

[sourceoneaudio]

I cant believe you bought a harmon kardon after all that we mentioned. im done.

I'm with you. I live 5 miles from the Storm, offered many times for a listening session when I'm back up and about after surgery. No replies at all. I have all kinds of gear to try out from high powered receivers, to separates, high powered, and low, speakers, Klipsch, a/d/s, Altec's, with UHF tweeter addition installed correct, or without, and JBL.

He has even asked for a place to listen to different types of equipment. :nutz:
Unbelievable Eh'?????????????

J/S-S1A :blink:

[spwal]

and those valencias... they are GIGANTIC, how could he move them 5 miles? (said with sarcasm).

I have people over all the time to listen to my setup, and vice versa. I have had to outlay thousands to educate myself (of course Ive been able to easily resell stuff after). It is wonderful when a kindred spirit invites you over for a listening session. We also loan our gear on extended periods.

I am not talking about stratosphere-- I am talking about a high quality front end that your beloved altec or jbl transducers with faithfully represent. What you put in is what you get out.

After all this discussion, I am inclined to try the last thing on my list -- a very high powered 2 channel amp. I have always tracked them on agon, but have never felt the need to try one until all this discussion of better bass and dynamics has got me all hot 'n bothered. I have spent a good chunk of time listening to giant Sim Audio, Spectrals, Krells, Classe, etc. Ive been tempted in the past

What I have found in my 4 odd years of diligent audiogon tracking is that Mcintosh and Audio Research are probably the two most easily (re)sellable of the solid state amps in the 1000-2000 price range. Anything above or below that is subject to its own unique market characteristics.

Being spoiled as I am with the unique characteristics of the Aleph and Alephclone, I am not sure that an older Audio Research or Mcintosh SS amp is going to do it for me. On the flipside, I certainly cant afford a pass labs X piece, and buying a 4-6 grand used piece of gear is too much of a diceroll for risk averse little me.

so while I am in kind of a nice conundrum, storm's path is a simple one: take some of the advice on this forum and 1) graciously accept the offer when a seasoned verteran invites you over to listen to their gear 2) bite the bullet on a Mcintosh or Audio Research (or an equally movable) SS high powered amp from the mid 90s (i wouldnt go too much older on ss gear), knowing with confidence that you can at least get back your investment if it is not for you.

It's win-win storm. please consider it.

[clmrt]

actually it is a "Harman Kardon 3470 Audio/Video Receiver" .
not really a 2 channel. Just a HT receiver with nasty DSP. (see reviews)

got a newish HK CD player that looked great. Didnt work, opened it up...cheap China crap. Cut off the power cord, pulled knobs and tossed.


2-channel all the way, defeatable DSP.

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Product%20Information/HK3470%20Product%20Sheet.pdf

Storm - keep thy eyes open for a nice old pro amp, $200 or less in used musical insturment shops.

[Zilch]

Ut, oh.

Think I want one of those.... :thmbsup:

[sourceoneaudio]

and those valencias... they are GIGANTIC, how could he move them 5 miles? (said with sarcasm).

so while I am in kind of a nice conundrum, storm's path is a simple one: take some of the advice on this forum and 1) graciously accept the offer when a seasoned verteran invites you over to listen to their gear 2) bite the bullet on a Mcintosh or Audio Research (or an equally movable) SS high powered amp from the mid 90s (i wouldnt go too much older on ss gear), knowing with confidence that you can at least get back your investment if it is not for you.

It's win-win storm. please consider it.

Spawl,
Remember, I have a set, no need for him to move his.

J/S-S1A :bouncy:

[spwal]

bar stools in the garage, i love it. that garage is bigger than my apartment :)

[mbask]

Storm..I can't believe your still at it with these guys, i've been gone for three months. i thought by now you'ed be owned..but no ....like a rock.
anyway I have a low watt system you might be interested in trading straight across for yours. whatayathink?!
..Just Kidding :p

[Zilch]

Not without an iPod.

Nope.... :p

[spwal]

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1178422173

50 wpc gainclone. this is built by tim rawson, who has quite the following.

i personally love his work and think that for 200 bucks you are getting something easily worth a 1000+ if it was retail.

my aleph looks just like the one in the photo above.

i HIGHLY recommend anyone buy this amp, you can easily resell for no loss if you dont like it.

[majick47]

I have four differnt amps to power my JBL speakers with 136a and 2235h 15" woofers. In order they are 130x2, 240x2, 300x2 and 400x2. The 240 and 300 are close and it is difficult to hear the difference. The 240 watt amp sounds best with the 136a and the 400 watt amp handles the 2235h nicely. Right now I'm useing the 130 watt amp to power a pair of 4301b with 8" woofers in a 8x10 room with 8' ceiling. Can't remember how many times I'v seen the recommendation that it was better to overpower speakers than underpower. Even at low listening levels the higher power amps give the speakers a much fuller sound. Just can't imagine how a 12 watt amp would be able move those 15" woofers.

[Tom Brennan]

"Just can't imagine how a 12 watt amp would be able move those 15" woofers."

It happens easily enough whether you can imagine it or not.

[Robh3606]

Just can't imagine how a 12 watt amp would be able move those 15" woofers.

Well look at it this way. The only thing different is about 13db of headroom between that and your 240 watt amp. With high 90's -100db speakers I can see you getting buy depending on your listenning habits. That said I agree with you. I think they sound better with at least 100 watts to give you that 10 more db but that's me. If he's happy shake his hand and hand him a beer.

Rob:)

[jackgiff]

There are many on this thread who ranked Storm for buying the Altec amp from me. But none of them have ever heard a 704 driving the Valencia's. They simply read the numbers and say "not enough power." I do not know how much power the 704 puts out, and don't really care. It is sufficient to drive the 846's, which have a rating of 50 Watts. I simply listed the specs from the factory manual.

I guess all these power freaks think that the engineers at Altec must have been crazy to design and sell such a low power piece of crap. But I have heard it, and I believe. Too bad Storm didn't believe after hearing it, and let them beat him into buying a 100 WPC receiver which makes his bedroom sound like a concert hall due to it's VMAX breakthrough. I think it is VMAX, not power which makes his 846B's sound different.

I have read many reports from Tube audiophiles who are tickled pink with their 7 or 10 WPC SET tube amps driving Altec speakers. The speakers don't know what produced the power they are driven by.

One of the hecklers even states he has 4 KW in his HT setup. Sounds like a comparison of manhood, doesn't it?

Mine is bigger than yours! :blah::blah::blah::blah:

[Tom Brennan]

Amen Jack.

[Storm]

Thanks Jack for the kind words. I often feel that yes - most guys are comparing manhoods - but...everyone is entitled to their own opinions. That is what makes this forum so wonderful - hate to admit it, but it's true.

I am currently using the Altec 704 to power a pair of Micron speakers I picked up at a yard sale last weekend.

I am using the HK for my main setup because there was not enough outputs in order to attach my xbox to it.

However, I do love it and plan to never sell it.

Does anyone know of Micron speakers? They are small bookshelf speakers - made in Phoenix, Arizona. He he, that's why I bought them. :)

Will post pictures soon...

-Storm.

[sourceoneaudio]

One of the hecklers even states he has 4 KW in his HT setup. Sounds like a comparison of manhood, doesn't it?

Mine is bigger than yours! :blah::blah::blah::blah:

Jack,
I have nothing against you or your vintage gear, or sale to Storm. Nothing wrong with keeping it alive. I/we think it takes a little more than 12.5 watts to drive a pair of 15" woofers and here what they are capable of doing correctly. The thing that gets me going is how the/his bragging goes on how it shakes my house, and the bass hits so hard I could not handle it. As I stated before I had my door wide open to him for helping him with more power, equipment, speaker decisions and teach him some of my knowledge, and give him stuff to really dwell on. But the door is closed due to his stroking, and making promises he could not keep.
Jack, you are more than welcome to come over for a demo of my HT room and have a beer, and good conversation. You are close. No offense to you at all.

J/S-S1A :D

[Storm]

Source -

The door is always open for you. Don't knock something before you try it. It seems you like to tell others what to do.

I seem to remember someone telling me that watts are just a sales persons trick to sell you something for more money. Isn't it?

;)

-Storm.

[clmrt]

One watt is one joule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule) (the SI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI) unit of energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy)) per second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/7/c/37cb77606c43f27b5316e7e6d03dab12.png = 1 newton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton) meter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre) per second In electrical terms, it follows that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/9/d/a9dfed2466eef1c7eba3a70806ac0acc.png That is, if 1 volt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt) of potential difference is applied to a resistive load, and a current of 1 ampere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere) flows, then 1 watt of power is dissipated. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt#_note-0)



:D

[sourceoneaudio]

Source -

The door is always open for you. Don't knock something before you try it. It seems you like to tell others what to do.

I seem to remember someone telling me that watts are just a sales persons trick to sell you something for more money. Isn't it? :bs:What planet were they on?

;)

-Storm.

Storm,
I don't tell people what to do, I make suggestions. You pulled that from another thread. Second you missed the whole point in my above thread. Also there are no sales gimmicks here, just helpful info. Also I'm running the Valencias with a much better tweeter array then yours, and they sound good/nice in the high end, better now since I re-worked the x-over point but still not desirable as a whole picture. Using a Nakamichi receiver at the moment. When I get the tweeter enclosures done today I will hook up some real power to them and see what they can do. If I remember correctly from the internal pics of your Altec receiver there was only one power cap for both channels? It is hard to get good clean balanced power sharing from one cap.

J/S-S1A :D

[opimax]

forgetting personalities and such. Who has more equipment? is there the same set of speakers at both houses? could the 12watt amp be carried easier then any of the other variables? it goes on and on and on and

where was that bandwidth thread?

Mark

[kingjames]

idea's come from thread's just like this one and by the way the BS Bandwidth thread is under general audio discussions and man,you should see what their talking about over there!:(

[opimax]

Can't read them, everyone is pulling their posts:wtf:

Mark

[kingjames]

that is the way their answering, Edited,they didn't pull their posts.

[spwal]

like i said...

i have had 45 SET 1.5wpc monos. basically aural sex on the midrange. rediculously good, however, bass was suffering.

i had to find a middle ground. I think the alephs worked for me real well.

[Storm]

Hey guys.

Just purchased a McIntosh C31v control center from my father. He purchased it from eBay about 3 weeks ago. He sold it to me because we visited a local vintage audio store and he purchased a McIntosh MX-113 and a McIntosh 2100.

I am still using the Harman/Kardon, but I use the McIntosh in the pre out and pre in jacks.

Wow, what an amazing difference. I love the sound and am so glad my dad found it.

Thank you for everyone's suggestions, but I think what suited me better was finding a pre-amplifier and adding that to my existing setup/home theatre.

:)

-Storm.

[JBLRaiser]

Hey guys.

Just purchased a McIntosh C31v control center from my father. He purchased it from eBay about 3 weeks ago. He sold it to me because we visited a local vintage audio store and he purchased a McIntosh MX-113 and a McIntosh 2100.

I am still using the Harman/Kardon, but I use the McIntosh in the pre out and pre in jacks.

Wow, what an amazing difference. I love the sound and am so glad my dad found it.

Thank you for everyone's suggestions, but I think what suited me better was finding a pre-amplifier and adding that to my existing setup/home theatre.

:)

-Storm.

I don't want to add any more BS to the BS bandwidth.

[Storm]

Can the people who were telling me to upgrade, please let me know if this upgrade is a good one or bad?

Thanks.

-Storm.

[hjames]

Ever get the impression that Storm is just some troll sent here just to work up all you serious old timers? (or is that seriously-old old timers:applaud:)

I mean - all this means is he is now using a Macintosh control center (thats just a fancy name for preamp, right?) as input-switcher for his pretty wood-wrapped 10w/ch receiver? More power to him - sounds like a real nice piece of gear.

Now y'all need to tell him he needs a high power Mac amp for the Altecs, right guys?

Or am I not keeping up with this party?

I don't want to add any more BS to the BS bandwidth.

[coherent_guy]

So Storm can hear a difference with the Mac preamp, great. What is the difference between that and the H/K receivers preamp? I believe two things, first quality and second, more "power".

The Mac's signal is sure to be quieter and cleaner than the receivers, that alone is enough to make a difference, particularly with high sensitivity speakers. Also, the Mac can no doubt output several volts, likely over five volts, where the H/K's amp would need probably a volt or less for it's full output. As with a more powerful amp, the headroom and robustness of signal contributes to sound quality, IMO. The H/K's preamp I imagine will be designed to have just enough output for the amp, the end. I mean, come on, we're talkin' a receiver here, a compromise from square one.

Storm, if you can hear a difference with a preamp, imagine what an amp with more power can do.

I agree with Ms. James, why get all worked up if anyone rejects advise you know to be good, just smile along with them and move on. When they eventually say "hey I hooked up a big amp and Wow!!", just welcome them to the club. . .

Storm recently posted pics in a thread about using L100 cabs for speakers stands for his Altecs. I commented to him that I thought his speaker set-up would not provide stereo imaging, given the requirements of speaker location and listening position for stereo. To me, imaging and the stereo affect is a big deal, everything I do in my system is to accomplish and enhance that affect. But if he likes his set-up, or even tells me mine is no good, so what? His opinion does not validate me, and vice versa.

[sourceoneaudio]

Can the people who were telling me to upgrade, please let me know if this upgrade is a good one or bad?

Thanks.

-Storm.

Strom,
It is a good upgrade. But as stated b4 you need a quality amp. This is not an upgrade to your receiver :barf:. End of story, and end of my input.

J/S-S1A

[Storm]

Strom,
It is a good upgrade. But as stated b4 you need a quality amp. This is not an upgrade to your receiver :barf:. End of story, and end of my input.

J/S-S1A

Why would I need to upgrade my receiver if I got a pre-amp to substitute the power from the H/K and use the Mac?

What do you suggest I get, J/S-S1A?

Thanks.

-Storm.

[sourceoneaudio]

Why would I need to upgrade my receiver if I got a pre-amp to substitute the power from the H/K and use the Mac?

What do you suggest I get, J/S-S1A?

Thanks.

-Storm.

As far as the power output goes between separates, and receiver power in that quality range of the HK not even in the same world.

I will be coming into some nice Mac Stuff (Mac 2100) (minty) in two weeks and possibly a very nice Marantz tube amp, and I still have my Nakamichi PA-5 for sale condition 8.5 to a 9. Sound quality A+++++++++ I'll keep you posted.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280095105344&rd=1&rd=1


Jeff
J/S-S1A :D

[coherent_guy]

Why would I need to upgrade my receiver if I got a pre-amp to substitute the power from the H/K and use the Mac?

What do you suggest I get, J/S-S1A?

Thanks.

-Storm.

What in the world are you talking about? That makes absolutely no sense.

And that's as far as I'll be baited. . .

[Storm]

I am asking a simpe question - it's not rocket science.

What amp should I replace my receiver in order to get the best out of the Mac?

Thanks.

-Storm.

[hjames]

I am asking a simpe question - it's not rocket science.

What amp should I replace my receiver in order to get the best out of the Mac?

Thanks.

-Storm.

I don't think there's a single answer to that question. Why don't you take some vinyl and some CDs and go have a listening party. Isn't anyone local to you using Altecs? Go hear what THEIR amps sound like!

[kingjames]

Ever get the impression that Storm is just some troll sent here just to work up all you serious old timers? (or is that seriously-old old timers:applaud:)

HJ, I am only old on paper!:D

[scott fitlin]

I am asking a simpe question - it's not rocket science.

What amp should I replace my receiver in order to get the best out of the Mac?

Thanks.

-Storm.It is a simple question, but the answer just isnt as simple.

YOU have to listen to various amps, and various power levels, and find out what it is you like.

One amp of one power rating will make great bass, and very dynamic sound, another amp of a differing brand and differing power level might make incredible sounding midrange, but lack a bit of ooomph in the bottom. So on, and so forth, etc!

Then, you gotta know what amps sounds best with YOUR particular speakers, this guy says use ABC amp, he uses it, its great, BUT, does he have the same speakers as you do? And, is his taste the same as yours?

If I were to render an opinion in this otherwise useless thread, I would go with a McIntosh of the power you need, and/or can afford. Why? Because, your already using a Mc preamp, so pre,s and power amps from the same manufacturer will definitely work well together. And Mc, we all know, already is known to sound good driving Altec speakers. So, thats a fairly reasonable guess.

Oh, and BTW, ANY of the amps be it Mc, Nakamichi, or almost any other serious amp, will blow the doors off that Harmless Kardon reciever. Simply put, recievers are All in 1 units, tuner, preamp, and power amp, none of the three sections are truly outstanding. As compared to purchasing complete seperates. The 2100 is nice, some guys love the old 2105, its a sweet sounding midrange, nice bass but not the tightest, but pleasing to listen to.

I really hope this helps, as I dont feel like dickering this out over the next six months.

Regardless, a good power amp will work some wonders for your system.

[clmrt]

Maybe sell the HK and use the funds to buy an Adcom 535. You'll enjoy the hell out of it while you keep your eyes open for another amp to try.

Buy one every few months or so, and compare. Sell the loser, repeat.

[oznob]

In another thread, Mr. Widget hit the nail on the head IMHO! If you want to make even a 10% improvement on your current system, you will be spending long dollars to do so!

I would argue that source is as important, if not more important, than amplification. If your source is sub-standard, no amp or speaker is going to fix that. You may find an upgrade to your source will be more cost effective than speding a small fortune on amplification. It is all part of the whole but I believe the source of the music, the first link in the chain, is the most important. I added a decent outboard DAC to my system and I was amazed at the difference in the quality of the sound!

My modest system is:

HK 3480 stereo receiver, remanufactued unit from Harmon, $200
Sony 300 disc changer, $140
Entech Number Cruncher 203.2 DAC, $200
JBL L890's, $1200
JBL Venue series Sub-10, also remanfactured, $180
Yamaha S2500 DVD player, $400
Home-made silver/copper interconnects and speaker cables, little cost

I am very happy with the sound quality of my current system.:yes:

[jim campbell]

so true..........even poor quality speaker systems are greatly improved by good quality input.if it was me i would go all out on the pre amp and upgrade the power amp(s) as finances permit

[X_X]

I just finished reading this entire thread and despite the humor- it has been punishing.

Since advice is free to give and expensive to take, I offer mine:.

Altecs play loud on very little wattage, but to get them to "wake up" and pound with effortless articulating perfection (at ANY volume level)- you need more juice. Ian hinted at it early- more power = more woofer control. More cone/woofer control = less distortion. Diminished distortion = more music. This is not a matter manhood, sales pitches, or anything other than simple physics.

HOWEVER, not everyone has the same audio goal. Some people prefer listening at lower volume levels where all of the above factors don't come into play as much. Those people usually focus on other quality aspects and no single "camp" is right or wrong. It is ALL subjective. When your desires are to "crank it up", you really begin to notice some amps are incapable of fulfilling that particular task. That is all.

You have discovered that more power is suitable to your audio needs. Congrats. You are now one step closer in determining what it is YOU like. In experimenting with various brands of amps, you may quickly discover that not all watts are the same. Hopefully, you will continue to make many more discoveries, and that is part of the fun because all the while you will be gaining something that no one can teach: PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

You have to jump in to get your feet wet. Buy stuff that you can get your money back out of and you will never have regrets. You can even try amps that you have no intention of keeping. Buy them cheap enough, and you can trial it and dump it after you have compared notes. The key here is to know the market. That means watching very closely. An online blue book membership (from Audiogon) is excellent because it can save you from making a huge buying mistake, or point out a great bargin.

Eventually, an amp will make it's way to your home and you will find it harder to get rid of than the others. Something about it will appeal to you and your personal tastes. Study it; Learn all you can about it. Try other amps like it. You may even find what weaknesses it has and ways to improve it.


It takes time- not a lot of money.

With so many people, we cannot all share the same path. Fortunately, we do not all have the same destination! We all travel at different speeds and pay attention to unique things along the way. People here have only pointed the way- you have to do the actual walking (listening). This is you we are talking about. It's your system in your house with your music collection. Your ears and your tastes are the definitive judge here and no one can say otherwise.

cheers,
Nate.

:cheers:

[Storm]

Thanks Nate, for the kind words.

Would this be a good "upgrade"? It is local and I can go pick it up, which is always a plus.

-Storm.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180095169189&rd=1&rd=1

[sourceoneaudio]

Thanks Nate, for the kind words.

Would this be a good "upgrade"? It is local and I can go pick it up, which is always a plus.

-Storm.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180095169189&rd=1&rd=1



Storm,
Personal opinion, I can't stand Carver equipment. Been there done that. The gear does not meet posted specs. I know one fact for sure I have a friend that put some of his new gear on the test bench, and this is the high powered stuff, the flagship receiver that is supposed to be 300 a channel. Well the unit never met posted specs. Did not even come close. He also met him (Bob Carver) at a convention, and confronted him on the issue, his reply the facts at hand was, there are no Audio Police in the world. I used to own two of their amps back in the 80's and sold them as qwik as I purchased them.
I will make you a deal. I will sell you my Nakamichi PA-5 for $400.00 give you a week to try it if you don't like it I'll give you your money back. You can pick it up today. I'll be home this afternoon. Let me know. You can P.M. me or contact me through my item for sale on e-bay.

Jeff
J/S-S1A Still trying to be a nice guy, and help. :D

[X_X]

I will sell you my Nakamichi PA-5 for $400.00 give you a week to try it if you don't like it I'll give you your money back. You can pick it up today. I'll be home this afternoon. Let me know. You can P.M. me or contact me through my item for sale on e-bay.

Jeff
J/S-S1A Still trying to be a nice guy, and help. :D


Storm,

I have used the model of amp he is mentioning and I liked it a lot. That is a very fair deal that you will not lose money on. I think you will be astounded by the Nakamichi PA5. You may never want to part with that one. I say have a go at it! He is offering you a money back deal right here in print on the forum. Take him up on it.

Nate.

Oh, and stay away from Carver. I know of very few people that stick with them.

[sourceoneaudio]

Storm,



Oh, and stay away from Carver. I know of very few people that stick with them.


Dat's da truth on dat one!!!!!!!!!!! :barf:


Jeff
J/S-S1A

[jim campbell]

Storm,
Personal opinion, I can't stand Carver equipment. :D
i hear that!!!i once heard a live demo a/b with 2 carvers briged to mono @450 watts vs. a 60 watt marantz receiver,and the marantz made them look silly.wattage is not an absolute marker of an amps power.i look for high current.it was explained to me that as a woofer moves forward to move air for a lf note the current is what has to pull it back into place before the next one or the woof will hyperextend.im no tech but the logic of this sounds right to me but i will defer to the zilch's of this forum for definitive answers.and that is why higher powered amps seem to make sense for speaker systems that need to move air,and the single ended triode stuff probably is best for other designs.

[moldyoldy]

Just wanted to be post #100 in this neverending blog...

Get a room, you two.

[Robh3606]

Just wanted to be post #100

Yeah well I am one up on you

Rob:D


PS your 101

[jackgiff]

What amp should I replace my receiver in order to get the best out of the Mac?

Thanks.

-Storm.Since you have started down the McIntosh path, I would stay with McIntosh gear. A pair of MC-1000 monobloc amplifiers would be a nice addition to your C31v Control Center. Or perhaps a MC2500 stereo power amp. You can't go wrong if you stay with McIntosh. And if it blows your voice coils across the room, that can be fun, too.

:applaud::applaud::applaud:

[Storm]

Could I use a 2100 macintosh with the control center?

-Storm.

[jackgiff]

Could I use a 2100 macintosh with the control center?

-Storm.


Sure, that would work. May need more power, though.

[sourceoneaudio]

Sure, that would work. May need more power, though.

Here is the last one that sold on e-bay. This is more than enough to drive those 846B's Strom, if you want to stay Mac.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290092785906&fromMakeTrack=true

105 per channel. The one I'm getting in two weeks is way nicer and has the original box, if you can believe that. (holy crap) :blink:


J/S-S1A :D

[Storm]

Where did you find the one you are getting?

Are you going to sell it?

Thanks.

-Storm.

Here is the last one that sold on e-bay. This is more than enough to drive those 846B's Strom, if you want to stay Mac.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290092785906&fromMakeTrack=true

105 per channel. The one I'm getting in two weeks is way nicer and has the original box, if you can believe that. (holy crap) :blink:


J/S-S1A :D

[Tom Brennan]

"but to get them to "wake up" and pound with effortless articulating perfection (at ANY volume level)- you need more juice. Ian hinted at it early- more power = more woofer control. "

And exactly how does that work? By what mechanism does a high powered amp "control" the woofer better than a low powered amp that working within it's range?

I don't understand.

[scott fitlin]

"but to get them to "wake up" and pound with effortless articulating perfection (at ANY volume level)- you need more juice. Ian hinted at it early- more power = more woofer control. "

And exactly how does that work? By what mechanism does a high powered amp "control" the woofer better than a low powered amp that working within it's range?

I don't understand.In my experience, when using lower powered amps, and I wanted louder sound than the amp could do without high distortion, overdrive causes the woofer to move, ( flutter wildly ) more than an amp with more power that i didnt have to drive as hard.

As well, bigger amps with bigger power supplies, just seem to have a more controlled ( tighter ) bottom end sound. I also think that really low powered amps, with very low damping factor, doesnt hold the cone as well, even when played within its limits. But, some people like the sound of low damping factor amps, too. I admit, so do I at times, depending on the type of music Im listening to. Lower powered tube amps with low damping factor plays Motown stuff from the 60,s and early 70,s VERY nicely.

[Zilch]

Woofer cone has mass and an air load. You've got to have and be able to deliver current to it to accelerate it, decelerate it, and then accelerate it in the opposite direction, continuously.

Think of it as an open-loop DC servo you're trying to make follow the low-frequency waveform in a controlled manner....

[Storm]

I am going to purchase the Nakamichi PA-5 from source. Is this a good purchase? Will it give me the upgrade I am looking for? Or, do I need more power for the Mac?

Thanks.

-Storm.

[clmrt]

A preamp requires nothing from the power amp. It is a switching device loaded with volume and tone controls and phono EQ, among other things.

The preamp feeds the low voltage line-level signals to the power amp, which applies 20-30db of gain.

That should be the last amp you ever need, period, and a very good deal. Nobody is trying to screw you.

About the only thing that could be said is that it has more headroom than you need, but it's hard to argue.

[sourceoneaudio]

"but to get them to "wake up" and pound with effortless articulating perfection (at ANY volume level)- you need more juice. Ian hinted at it early- more power = more woofer control. "

And exactly how does that work? By what mechanism does a high powered amp "control" the woofer better than a low powered amp that working within it's range?

I don't understand.

Damping Factor, and Slewrate. The key factors in how fast/qwik an amp is, and what you can can expect from it on the output side, along with many other factors and other good specs we all look for.

J/S-S1A :D

[scott fitlin]

Slewrate? I think thats yet another overused spec, these days.

I have used and own amps with slewrates of 60v/uS, and I have amps that have slewrates of 13v/uS. The higher slew rate does not guarantee good sound. It just guarantees that the amp is fast.

In some cases I like the amps with the lower slew specs, I honestly think there are many other factors that determine what an amp sounds like.

I mean vintage Mc,s arent super high slewing, but they dont sound slow to me, either.

Crown amps have what they call controlled slew rate, they are neither the fastest or slowest slew rates out there, and I know I like the way Crown does bass. Crown powered subs have lightning fast transient attack, Crowns have always been known for their snap.

Damping factor specs can also be misleading. Crown amps have some of the highest rated damping factors! Crest amps are considerably lower damping factors. Yet, Crest Pro Series makes a harder sounding bass to my ears. Why is that?

Not to mention amps like McIntosh MC-2300,s with a rated damping factor of 20, autoformer coupled outputs, and many guys I know, swear by the bass they make!

[sourceoneaudio]

Scott,
You want to hear what I call B/S. Back in the day 70's, 80's, and mid 80's companies would kill to get too and the goal to reach was a hundred as far as Damping Factor went. Then as we knew it in the business you/we had a great and a qwik amp, along with other factors of course.
Here is the B/S, Rotel claims they have amps that have a Damping Factor of a THOUSAND on their RB-1090 and the RB-1095. Now I think we are in the serious B/S :bs: factor region.
With the quality of gear I've delt with and the goals I've seen set back in the era of the gear we all love I think something is definitely wrong with this picture.

J/S-S1A :D

[scott fitlin]

Damping Factor, and Slewrate. The key factors in how fast/qwik an amp is, and what you can can expect from it on the output side, along with many other factors and other good specs we all look for.

J/S-S1A :D

Scott,
You want to hear what I call B/S. Back in the day 70's, 80's, and mid 80's companies would kill to get too and the goal to reach was a hundred as far as Damping Factor went. Then as we knew it in the business you/we had a great and a qwik amp, along with other factors of course.
Here is the B/S, Rotel claims they have amps that have a Damping Factor of a THOUSAND on their RB-1090 and the RB-1095. Now I think we are in the serious B/S :bs: factor region.
With the quality of gear I've delt with and the goals I've seen set back in the era of the gear we all love I think something is definitely wrong with this picture.

J/S-S1A :DWell, let me ask you something else!

How do you account for the fact that you state in post #1 that DF and Slew rate are key factors in what one can expect from the output side of an amp, and then state in post #2 that its all BS?

Either it makes serious sound, or it makes serious BS? But ya cant be on both sides of the fence!

[coherent_guy]

Scott,
You want to hear what I call B/S. Back in the day 70's, 80's, and mid 80's companies would kill to get too and the goal to reach was a hundred as far as Damping Factor went. Then as we knew it in the business you/we had a great and a qwik amp, along with other factors of course.
Here is the B/S, Rotel claims they have amps that have a Damping Factor of a THOUSAND on their RB-1090 and the RB-1095. Now I think we are in the serious B/S :bs: factor region.
With the quality of gear I've delt with and the goals I've seen set back in the era of the gear we all love I think something is definitely wrong with this picture.

J/S-S1A :D

The Rotel would need an output impedance of 0.008 Ohm to have a damping factor of 1000 into 8 Ohms, since:

Damping Factor = Speaker Impedance / Amp Output Impedance

Whether or not the Rotel amp has that output impedance, I don't know. I've heard of other amps with high damping factors like that, I believe a Crown Macro Reference is one. It may be all bull-loney but is theoretically possible.

[scott fitlin]

The Rotel would need an output impedance of 0.008 Ohm to have a damping factor of 1000 into 8 Ohms, since:

Damping Factor = Speaker Impedance / Amp Output Impedance

Whether or not the Rotel amp has that output impedance, I don't know. I've heard of other amps with high damping factors like that, I believe a Crown Macro Reference is one. It may be all bull-loney but is theoretically possible.

K Series have DF >3000 to 1

I Tech Series have DF >5000 to 1

Macro Reference Series had DF 20,000 to 1

Yet, when set up properly, they dont sound hard, but the bass is tight and controlled.

And, there are amps I have, or have tried, that have DF of >200 to 1, that sound hard to me. Knocking type bottom end.

All Im saying, is dont just go by specs, all you`ll end up doing is making mistakes. Just like a car, you gotta test drive it and see what it does for you!

The ear opener is when you find something you truly adore, but its specs go against current thinking!

:D

[jackgiff]

"but to get them to "wake up" and pound with effortless articulating perfection (at ANY volume level)- you need more juice. Ian hinted at it early- more power = more woofer control. "

And exactly how does that work? By what mechanism does a high powered amp "control" the woofer better than a low powered amp that working within it's range?

I don't understand.

Hey Tom, now someone on this thread is making sense. I don't understand it either. An amplifier outputting a few watts to an efficient speaker shouldn't need 120db of headroom. Check this answer from sourceoneaudio.

Damping Factor, and Slewrate. The key factors in how fast/qwik an amp is, and what you can can expect from it on the output side, along with many other factors and other good specs we all look for.

J/S-S1A :DMaybe S1A even understands it, but seems he was pushing nothing but power before someone asked why a high powered amp would be better at controlling a speaker. Maybe all of the jabs at Storm reveal something after all. Now we are talking about DF, slew rate, and numerous other specs which make one amplifier sound different than another, not just power. And DF is not a function of power. Maybe now someone can tell Storm that virtually any amp change he makes in his system will sound different because of all these various functions which differ from amp to amp. And that he doesn't need BIG power to drive his Altecs. And now maybe he can understand that other amplifiers WILL sound different. And that only he can decide if they are better than what he had.

Now we are approaching the truth.

[scott fitlin]

Hey Tom, now someone on this thread is making sense. I don't understand it either. An amplifier outputting a few watts to an efficient speaker shouldn't need 120db of headroom. Check this answer from sourceoneaudio.

Maybe S1A even understands it, but seems he was pushing nothing but power before someone asked why a high powered amp would be better at controlling a speaker. Maybe all of the jabs at Storm reveal something after all. Now we are talking about DF, slew rate, and numerous other specs which make one amplifier sound different than another, not just power. And DF is not a function of power. Maybe now someone can tell Storm that virtually any amp change he makes in his system will sound different because of all these various functions which differ from amp to amp. And that he doesn't need BIG power to drive his Altecs. And now maybe he can understand that other amplifiers WILL sound different. And that only he can decide if they are better than what he had.

Now we are approaching the truth.Actually, I agree, Altecs dont need big power. You really have to try amps, and see what makes that special magic happen. Youll know when it does, I KNOW THIS for a fact, youll hear it!

But, you have to audition amps. Talk, and reading specs, is, well, speculation!

[jackgiff]

Actually, I agree, Altecs dont need big power. You really have to try amps, and see what makes that special magic happen. Youll know when it does, I KNOW THIS for a fact, youll hear it!

But, you have to audition amps. Talk, and reading specs, is, well, speculation!


Amen. Thanks Scott.

[sourceoneaudio]

Well, let me ask you something else!

How do you account for the fact that you state in post #1 that DF and Slew rate are key factors in what one can expect from the output side of an amps, and then state in post #2 that its all BS?

Either it makes serious sound, or it makes serious BS? But ya cant be on both sides of the fence!


I was bringing up the fact of the huge difference in the numbers and is it fact or fiction? Because Like I stated b4 I was always told that reaching a Damping Factor of a hundred was we were told to look for in an amp, for it to be respectable, and for it to do a good job of reproducing music correctly, and accurately. So I see 1000 being a little ???????? Am I wrong?

J/S-S1A :blink:

[jackgiff]

Am I wrong?

J/S-S1A :blink:


YES

[scott fitlin]

I was bringing up the fact of the huge difference in the numbers and is it fact or fiction? Because Like I stated b4 I was always told that reaching a Damping Factor of a hundred was we were told to look for in an amp, for it to be respectable, and for it to do a good job of reproducing music correctly, and accurately. So I see 1000 being a little ???????? Am I wrong?

J/S-S1A :blink:What I see, is you are telling Storm the specs/numbers game in order to promote the sale of your wares to him.

Then, you are trying to talk the "specs dont tell the whole story" song to me. Which I already said anyway!

Sort of like two different conversations, and two different stories, for two different people, but within the same thread, and of the same equipment.

Cant burn the candle on both ends! :no:

[sourceoneaudio]

What I see, is you are telling Storm the specs/numbers game in order to promote the sale of your wares to him.

Then, you are trying to talk the "specs dont tell the whole story" song to me. Which I already said anyway!

Sort of like two different conversations, and two different stories, for two different people, but within the same thread, and of the same equipment.

Cant burn the candle on both ends! :no:

Scott,
Non of this was ever brought up in my conversations with Storm. I'm not having two conversations with any one I'm trying to understand why the numbers are so different myself because I was taught/told different. I was trying to help Tom in post 108 understand a little more, from what I was taught in the past. Sorry if I led your thought of what I was seeking in the wrong direction.

J/S-S1A :(

[scott fitlin]

Man, you change direction quick!

Now your trying help Tom out!

Lets ask Tom if he needs your help? Shall we?

:blink:

[sourceoneaudio]

Did he not ask a question in #108?

J/S-S1A

[scott fitlin]

Damping Factor, and Slewrate. The key factors in how fast/qwik an amp is, and what you can can expect from it on the output side, along with many other factors and other good specs we all look for.

J/S-S1A :D

Did he not ask a question in #108?

J/S-S1A:D Yes he did!

OK, Lets teach Tom! :applaud:

[scott fitlin]

I think Mr. Brennan knows his stuff, especially about Altec.

He isnt new at this ya know!

[Robh3606]

Hello Tom

Asside from all the hype when I was at the MAF I was talking to Bruce about the Titans and one of the things was power needed for them. He said 10 watts was fine but they sounded better with 100. I know HE stuff sounds better to me with more power behind it. I am not 100% sure why as most of the time were lucky to be using a couple of watts. I think it just gives them the reserves so they never become power starved and never choke.

Rob:)

[sourceoneaudio]

Do you understand what direction I was going now? I'm confused on the huge number differences in that spec area, and wondering why for my own knowledge. And wondering if the Audio Police had any regulation on it. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, trying to figure more out.


J/S-S1A :blink:

[Zilch]

Generally speaking, one would expect a higher-power amp to have a higher damping factor, though it depends upon the output topology....

[Tom Brennan]

From what I understand slew rate and damping factor, even if they do effect woofer control, are independent of the power an amp puts out.

So I still haven't heard why a high powered amp would control the woofer better than a low powered one given the low powered one was working within it's limits. And that WAS the claim made, that at ANY volume a high powered amp would control better.

Now in hi-fi use, which is what many of us do, a 98db speaker would peak at 110db with a 16 watt amp still working in it's limits. That's not counting any speaker compression which I presume is low when talking large 98db speakers with 15" woofers and compression drivers with only 16 watts input.

Now 110db is pretty damned loud and I never hit peaks like that anymore, never, I seldom run steady-state much higher than 80db, most of the time I'm using far less than a single watt. So the 30 watts per channel I have available are much more than enough, they are working well within their limits.

That said the next amps I buy will be the Monarchy class A amps which are I think 70wpc. Not because I think I need more power but because the things sound so damned good when using 1 watt.

However If someone can explain why a 250 watt amp sounds better at 1 watt than 30 watt amp does at 1 watt I'ma listenin'.

Now there's also a school of thought that holds that low power amps can sound better than high power amps at low power and since most home hornys are using low power far more often than using high....... I don't hold one way or the other with this school but simply throwing the notion into the mix.

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, like Zilch says.

But, again, one needs to listen to an amp with the speakers to really know.

Ill tell you, I went into a stereo shop, they have the B&W 802,s which I like. I asked to hear them, the salesman obliged me. First amp he powered the B & W,s with was a Mc tube amp, and I wasnt nuts for it, then we went to SS Mc, I liked this, nice sound, sweet, smooth, pretty.

But, the salesguy said if you really are serious, Classe makes these sing. I had never heard a Classe, and he played the B & W,s from the Classe, wow, really sweet high end, nice, neutral mids, but B & W is known for their midrange neutrality, good bass, very accurate, NOT JBL, I missed a bit of that American Oomph, but, overall? I really liked that combination! Classe and B & W!

I never would have known if I didnt hear them. And thats the whole point. You gotta listen to it, and see what it does!

[Tom Brennan]

I think it just gives them the reserves so they never become power starved and never choke.

Rob:)


Yes, that's reasonable thinking. When I heard Bruce's Titans at Lima a few years ago the system was in a large room and called upon to play very loud though as I recall the amps were tubes of low or moderate power.

One fella in our horn club in Chicago became enamored of running his Titans with gain-clones of, oh I dunno, maybe 15 watts a channel.

I've heard good horn systems sounding first rate with a wide variety of amps; from 3 watt SETs to big-hog QSCs. Ya never know.

Regards

[scott fitlin]

I like my smaller amps on tweeters and compression drivers. My woofers like a bit bigger amps. I have always found the small, low powered amps with fast input sensitivities to sound really sweet on tweeters and compression driver horns.

My basshorns dont require TONS of power, but do need an amp with a healthy power supply and robust output stages.

My ported double 18,s OTOH, they LOVE HUGE power.

[Tom Brennan]

Scotty----Yeah, I used to bi-amp with a 120 wpc Yamaha SS amp on various bassbins and various tube amps on compression drivers, I was very fond of a little Fisher SA-100 I used to have, I should have kept the little bugger, it sounded so sweet.

[Storm]

I am going to hook up the NAK and will post results in a couple hours...

;)

Nice meeting you, Source! My dad thanks you for the beer, he greatly appreciated it.

-Storm.

[JBLRaiser]

From what I understand slew rate and damping factor, even if they do effect woofer control, are independent of the power an amp puts out.

So I still haven't heard why a high powered amp would control the woofer better than a low powered one given the low powered one was working within it's limits. And that WAS the claim made, that at ANY volume a high powered amp would control better.

Now in hi-fi use, which is what many of us do, a 98db speaker would peak at 110db with a 16 watt amp still working in it's limits. That's not counting any speaker compression which I presume is low when talking large 98db speakers with 15" woofers and compression drivers with only 16 watts input.

Now 110db is pretty damned loud and I never hit peaks like that anymore, never, I seldom run steady-state much higher than 80db, most of the time I'm using far less than a single watt. So the 30 watts per channel I have available are much more than enough, they are working well within their limits.

That said the next amps I buy will be the Monarchy class A amps which are I think 70wpc. Not because I think I need more power but because the things sound so damned good when using 1 watt.

However If someone can explain why a 250 watt amp sounds better at 1 watt than 30 watt amp does at 1 watt I'ma listenin'.

Now there's also a school of thought that holds that low power amps can sound better than high power amps at low power and since most home hornys are using low power far more often than using high....... I don't hold one way or the other with this school but simply throwing the notion into the mix.

Or, do you ever get on the highway and put the pedal to the metal? That's when the horsepower comes in handy.:D

[JBLRaiser]

Or, do you ever get on the highway and put the pedal to the metal? That's when the horsepower comes in handy.:D

Just realized I gave you really useless information. I should be getting your advice.;)

[jackgiff]

In Storms bedroom, judging from the pictures he has sent of his setup, I cannot believe he needs more than a couple watts to get significant volume. After all, it isn't the LA Coliseum is it? But now he has bought S1A's Nak, so it doesn't really matter anymore, does it? And I will bet that he finds greatly improved sound. Even it he gets it with only a couple watts from the NAK. Just shows to go you.

Wonder what Storms next great find will be. Or what else he will be convinced to buy. I still have that bridge.

[scott fitlin]

Just realized I gave you really useless information. I should be getting your advice.;):rotfl:

Youd be surprised what that old Chevy with the 327 and a six pack of carbuerators can do!

[scott fitlin]

Wonder what Storms next great find will be. Or what else he will be convinced to buy. I still have that bridge.Depends! Gotta wait and see what Source recommends next week.


This has been a presentation of Lansing Heritage Live! Sponsored by Red Bull. THE energy drink!

:banana:

[sourceoneaudio]

In Storms bedroom, judging from the pictures he has sent of his setup, I cannot believe he needs more than a couple watts to get significant volume. After all, it isn't the LA Coliseum is it? But now he has bought S1A's Nak, so it doesn't really matter anymore, does it? And I will bet that he finds greatly improved sound. Even it he gets it with only a couple watts from the NAK. Just shows to go you.

Wonder what Storms next great find will be. Or what else he will be convinced to buy. I still have that bridge.
Jack,
I guess you missed this question by Storm
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=157595&postcount=96

I think I helped him make a much better decision Nakamichi, over Carver. Also I have given him options I'm not a difficult person to work with. Also running a Mac preamp through an HK 2 channel receiver is a Faux Paux from hell I think eh'.
Like I said I will work with him, I'm not hear to rip anyone off or steer them in the wrong direction.

J/S-S1A

[Tom Brennan]

I have some 605As that Storm needs. And a Citation 17 he also needs.

[scott fitlin]

Ill agree, the Carvers run out of steam, and get hot.

Lots of power, but NO BASS, never really knew why!

[scott fitlin]

I have some 605As that Storm needs. And a Citation 17 he also needs.C`mon, Tom, let Storm get a week out of the Nakamichi!

:D

[jackgiff]

Like I said I will work with him, I'm not Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper had nothing on you.

[scott fitlin]

I'm not Jack the Ripper.

J/S-S1A:hmm:

So who are you? Harvey Honeycut the used car salesman?

:p

[jackgiff]

:hmm:

So who are you? Harvey Honeycut the used car salesman?

:p


:applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::applaud::appl aud::applaud:

S1A, No need to respond, I am outta here.

[JBLRaiser]

I'll wire you two hundred for it.:coolness:

[scott fitlin]

I was trying to help Tom in post 108 understand a little more

J/S-S1A :(You were saying?

:rotfl:

[sourceoneaudio]

Jack the Ripper had nothing on you.


Miss spoken, Jack sorry for my Faux Paux. After I wrote that I thought gee his name is Jack and I'm being stupid. Really sorry, no bad intension at all.





Sorry. J/S-S1A

[scott fitlin]

Gentlemen, thank you for a most entertaining evening! Goodnight, Ill be back tomorrow.

:applaud:

[sourceoneaudio]

:hmm:

So who are you? Harvey Honeycut the used car salesman?

:p


Scooter salesman like you bud. Hope you have a great evening.

J/S-S1A :bouncy:

[avguytx]

Bottom line coming from someone in here that may be the only manufacturers rep. In our industry, there's a lot of great gear. I see it every year at CEDIA and CES along with the other conventions. We are all different people and no one can tell each of us what is best for our own ears. What I like is different than all the rest of you and so on and so forth. It's up to each of us. I myself run 20 year old Carver equipment that has been gone thru and completely redone with the latest output devices and re-capped if need be and I would be the first to jump in line and tell you that it sounds better than your stuff. But, that's just another man's opinion. I rep many things that are more expensive (many times over) than what I use in my own 2-channel system but I like what I like. It's great that we give Storm our opinions of what we like but he will ultimately make his own decisions....be it wrong (to us) or right. But...that's what keeps this industry going. Even if it's not near as much fun as it was years ago, I still love it.

The same respect goes that I still like coming to the Lansing forums to see what's going on even if I don't like the way my Valencias sound. I like many other speakers far better but at least I can give an opinion of what I own. I have good equipment...I can afford far more expensive but I don't see the need to waste the money on it. It's not that important to me. I do it for me...no one else. I don't want to have to listen to "certain music" to make the Valencia's sound good...or, have to have certain equipment on them to make them sound good. It's not my thing. To those that it is...that's your choice.

God Bless this hobby that we all have and thank God everyday that we still have out discerning ears to tell the difference of what we like what we like and what we don't like. That's why all of us are different. We don't look the same......we don't hear the same. Thank goodness...there would be no competition in this great industry! Enjoy the music....

[Tom Brennan]

C'mon Storm, buy the 605s and Citation. I need these.

[Tom Brennan]

Or these.

[avguytx]

Ok. I admit those are cool drum kits. lol

[Tom Brennan]

Yeah AV, those old American drums are great. Back in the day I had Rogers swivomatics and round badge Gretsches (drum nerd talk). Lately I've been playing a Yamaha digital kit and I need to get back to real tubs.

[Storm]

Well, guys....

I hooked up the NAK and I am very suprised. The bass improved enormously and was cleaned up. I can hear every subtle beat. Before, the bass was kind of "muddy".

I am so glad I got the amp and am extremely glad I decided to go with an amp and preamp in my setup instead of a receiver.

Thanks Source!

I can "hear" the difference and I am very happy with the results.

And yes, Jack - I do need the LA Colisuem in my bedroom. I love classic rock and I love feeling like I am in the second row, center, at every concert I attend...

:)

-Storm.

[oznob]

Or these.

So it may be OT but when you start talking vintage drums I get all warm inside! My first kit consisted of a Leedy kick, Gretch rides and a Ludwig floor. Had a "Squeek-King" pedal later replaced by a Ghost, Zildjians all around on Rodgers stands. Currently using 6 piece Tama Artstars with Z A-customs. Great kit but I do miss my old uglies. They weren't pretty but sure sounded good!

[Tom Brennan]

OZ--On the first Moby Grape record on one of the songs you can hear Don Stevenson's Speed King squeaking, that's hi-fidelity!

The first time I played a Ghost I thought it was gonna run away from me it was so smooth and fast.

[Storm]

Why did you hijack my thread to talk about drums?

Seems all my threads get hijacked, lately.

;)

-Storm.

[Tom Brennan]

Why did you hijack my thread to talk about drums?



-Storm.

What, eleven pages into this nonsense and you're complaining? And I'm one of the guys who tries to stick up for you around here. Which by the way has cost me even more friends than suggesting people put Radian diaphragms in JBL bodies did.

[kingjames]

Why did you hijack my thread to talk about drums?

Seems all my threads get hijacked, lately.

;)

-Storm.
Storm welcome to the world of BS Banwidth!

[oznob]

Dreadfully sorry if I did anything to suggest a "hi-jacking" of your thread. I felt most of it was, as KJ said, BS bandwidth. Tom mentioned something truly interesting which peaked my interest. I'll bet with your new amp, you too can hear that Ludwig pedal squeeking away! Afterall, isn't that one of the reasons most of us get into this hobby to begin with? We want to hear the subtleties the average person doesn't care a hoot about. Suffice it to say this is the last post I make on this thread. I sincerely hope you enjoy your new amp. Source gave you a great deal on that Nak which is a quality product and hard to beat for the price!

[Zilch]

WAIT!

Who's thread IS this?

[And Storm puts one over on the forum.... :thmbsup: ]

[Fred Sanford]

OZ--On the first Moby Grape record on one of the songs you can hear Don Stevenson's Speed King squeaking, that's hi-fidelity!

The first time I played a Ghost I thought it was gonna run away from me it was so smooth and fast.

Oznob should know you can hear the Speed King through a bunch of Houses of the Holy, plus the songs recorded at that time that ended up on Physical Graffitti.

I loved that pedal, when I was 22 I swore I'd never sell it...:o:

Singer's sewing machine graphite, came in a little can like 3 in 1 oil. Only thing that worked for me.

je

[clmrt]

pssst...Storm....what wires are you using?

[sourceoneaudio]

pssst...Storm....what wires are you using?

Storm,
I was going to ask you yesterday what you were using for speaker wire. I was going to give you some no: 12 OFC Monster cable. Let me know how many feet you need and I'll send it to you with the owners manual for the PA-5. Enjoy the music.

J/S-S1A :D

[sourceoneaudio]

Tom mentioned something truly interesting which peaked my interest. I'll bet with your new amp, you too can hear that Ludwig pedal squeeking away! Afterall, isn't that one of the reasons most of us get into this hobby to begin with? We want to hear the subtleties the average person doesn't care a hoot about. Suffice it to say this is the last post I make on this thread. I sincerely hope you enjoy your new amp. Source gave you a great deal on that Nak which is a quality product and hard to beat for the price!

Oznob,
Thank you for kind words. I always want to make sure my customers, and friends are happy, and I'm not hear to take advantage of anyone. Have a great day.

J/S-S1A :D

[scott fitlin]

Well, guys....

I hooked up the NAK and I am very suprised. The bass improved enormously and was cleaned up. I can hear every subtle beat. Before, the bass was kind of "muddy".

I am so glad I got the amp and am extremely glad I decided to go with an amp and preamp in my setup instead of a receiver.

Thanks Source!

I can "hear" the difference and I am very happy with the results.

And yes, Jack - I do need the LA Colisuem in my bedroom. I love classic rock and I love feeling like I am in the second row, center, at every concert I attend...

:)

-Storm.So, now you know! Yes, amps make that much of a difference.

Now you only have 12 or 20 more brands and models to go through to find audio nirvana, Im glad your happy, use it, enjoy it, and try to enjoy it for a while instead of thinking about whats better, whats right! You got something good? Be happy with it. THAT is what listening to music is really all about.:rotfl:

[scott fitlin]

Scooter salesman like you bud. Hope you have a great evening.

J/S-S1A :bouncy:Touche! :applaud:

[sourceoneaudio]

I do love the forum, and I do love talking with all the brains involved, I know we all have good and bad days and I/we am still learning more and more everyday about this business with all of the changes at hand, and in the future. I also want to apologize for offending anyone yesterday, especially Mr Giff. Yesterday was my second day with no meds after my back surgery. (going through withdrawals)
Hope everyone has a great day.


J/S-S1A :D

[clmrt]

I just think it's pretty cool that Storm went from A to Z and wound up with a Mac feeding a Nak feeding 846B's.

[scott fitlin]

I just think it's pretty cool that Storm went from A to Z and wound up with a Mac feeding a Nak feeding 846B's.Mac, Nak, Crown, Conrad J, Altec, JBL and Cerwin Vega TOO! I said a hip hop a hippety do, guess what audio, we luv you!

Next big rap single being created right here, in BS bandwidth real time.

[jim campbell]

Dreadfully sorry if I did anything to suggest a "hi-jacking" of your thread. I felt most of it was, as KJ said, BS bandwidth. Tom mentioned something truly interesting which peaked my interest. I'll bet with your new amp, you too can hear that Ludwig pedal squeeking away! Afterall, isn't that one of the reasons most of us get into this hobby to begin with? We want to hear the subtleties the average person doesn't care a hoot about. Suffice it to say this is the last post I make on this thread. I sincerely hope you enjoy your new amp. Source gave you a great deal on that Nak which is a quality product and hard to beat for the price!not so fast guys.im more into music than gear and would love to hear about who, where,what,how and even why you guys played.good gear is at best a vehicle that gets you to the real thing..........

[moldyoldy]

:o: OK, I wanna play now...just a little...:o:

Storm, if you continue down the "buy-em-and-try-em" path as suggested by several here, add a pair of these to the 'someday' list (no affilliation);


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Altec-1609A-Amplifier-Biamplifier-Peerless-BIGE_W0QQitemZ220094469728QQcategoryZ119022QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem


This thread's given me an idea for an even broader BW bogart, we could call it...;

"If It Were Me..." :blah:

Same scenario, only John Doe is the poor guy who asks for upgrade advice (as opposed to unsolicited advice). Needs to have a volunteer John Doe to anonymously take the heat.

:wasnt-me:

:beamup:

[jim campbell]

when my bud was looking for his system i suggested along with the altec 19's,he wanted to try the audio research sp6 pre/bryston 4b combo i was using with my l 300's.in his room it worked really well and last i heard still is

[X_X]

If someone can explain why a 250 watt amp sounds better at 1 watt than 30 watt amp does at 1 watt I'ma listenin'

Tom, I have the greatest respect for you and you probably know more about audio than I ever will hope to know. I think the term "power" as it relates to wattage was defintaely misguided by myself and others. I can undersand where you are giong with your statements, and I know you are absolutely correct.

I will also add that I think most high power amps simply sound better. That is not to say they do by virtue of their high power specs including the amount of wattage posted on the manual. I think it must have to do with beefier power supplies and caps, and other parts that spec out with higher voltage capabilities (like resistors).

Most amps are built just "good enough" with regard to their intended ratings. Not ALL, but most I have tried.


One fella in our horn club in Chicago became enamored of running his Titans with gain-clones of, oh I dunno, maybe 15 watts a channel.

That brings up another point- topology. Gain clones are Class D. That's like plugging your speaker directly into the power outlet. They are extremely efficient, and produce almost no heat byproduct. Storm's new Nakamichi will get hot enough to fry an egg on! That's the price you pay for A/AB topology.


Nate.

[scott fitlin]

I have had the exact opposite experience. I find small, low powered amps on high efficiency tweeters, and horns to sound sweeter and more responsive, and delicate than bigger brute amps. I find the bigger amps do better bass, but can sound harsher on upper mids and vhf.

Some amps run warm, some hot, and some cool, but I do know class AB output topology sounds good. Most class D amps are not really good enough for midrange and hf. Most, not all.

Amps running in class A run VERY warm, and they sound amazing. People swear by class A amplification, despite the heat and size of the amps compared to the relatively small amount of output power you get for all the trouble and expense.

I have amps, that despite thier seemingly moderate amount of rated output power, seem to outdo higher powered amps, sometimes twice the power, lightweight class D, class H, and switching amps.

Then you have tube amps. 50 watts per channel tube many a time plays as strong as 100 watts per channel solid state. Some people say its becuase of their soft clip characteristic, so you can drive them harder, others say the power supplies in tube amps that use 250v B+ are what make them sound stronger.

I do know I use OLD Crown PSA-2,s for sub bass, and those old high current 450wpc@4ohm amps make a bottom end you FEEL, and yet, use a lightweight switching amp that produces 1000wpc@4ohms, a