Altec 846A UHF Tweeter Addition

[sourceoneaudio]

Well after reading the response curve in this thread on the 806A horn driver, (WEak alnico drivers, symptoms?) In the technical help section by Horn Lover.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=151767#post151767

I decided to do the addition of the Klipsch RF-7 (K-67) horn tweeter that I've been talking about doing in previous threads to the 846A's that I'm working on for my friend. (time to play)
Since the results showed the dramatic drop off on both grids to be around 9k to 10k, then utilizing that drop off/slope I added the Klipsch driver in at 10k with an 18db per octave slope, butterworth alignment.
I went through and tested all of the old components and drivers, fixed the dead horn driver, tested the N-800 factory x-overs, and found them all to be working fine. So I used the factory x-over in conjunction with the addition of the tweet and it's network, installed a 5 way binding post to the rear panel for better input hook up, and installed foam tape on the rear panel to cut back on rattles and leaks. Needless to say they sound very nice with the new addition. They were as a whole/factory missing something on the top end, that is evident.

So I called the owner for a demo, and he was qwik to get here to listen to them, and was most pleased with the outcome, and loved the way the drivers blended.

So the next plan is to build a nice little cube for the Klipsch K-67 to sit in and just place it on top of each speaker array. So we have another happy Altec listener in the world. (see pics)

J/S-S1A :applaud:

[Storm]

Glad to know there is a fellow proud Altec owner in Phoenix.

I told you there was a difference in the sound - couldn't you hear it?

;)

-Storm.

[sourceoneaudio]

Storm,
He loved it, especially since he is also a Klipsch fan. It is a most evident improvement with a set of $300.00 tweeters. (Klipsch K-67's) The only thing missing is good sub reinforcement, which we will take care of with a Klipsch RSW-10. Tis a bad boy.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/discontinued/details/rsw-10.aspx
Probably one of the baddest 10" subs on the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is all for a two channel room.

J/S-S1A :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

[Mr. Widget]

It is a most evident improvement with a set of $300.00 tweeters. (Klipsch K-67's) The only thing missing is good sub reinforcement, which we will take care of with a Klipsch RSW-10.I agree that a good four way kicks butt on your typical vintage two-way... now if you only started out with something better in the middle. :rotfl:


Widget

[sourceoneaudio]

Widget,
Not my choice on what's in the middle. He bought the Altec's new when he was a kid (18 years young). He is having a hard time letting go of them, lots of memory's of LP playing through them. He has stated to me from the day he bought them new something was missing on the top end. Today was the first time in 20 years they have had music played through them. My friend was very happy, they put a big smile on his face.


J/S-S1A :)

[Storm]

Source -

Why are you offering them to me for $500.00 if the guy truly likes them?

That makes no sense.

:blink:

-Storm.

[Zilch]

That was before he fixed them and added the tweeters per your suggestion, Storm.

[Not for sale now, looks like.... :) ]

[Mr. Widget]

Widget,
Not my choice on what's in the middle.....Hey, I was just pulling your chain. I'd rather have the bits in the middle than the Klipsch bits.


Widget

[sourceoneaudio]

Storm,
Everything has a price! The $500.00 dollar price was a walk away price for him. (not fixed, no time and effort) Now he really likes them, and I'm sure if the price was right he would sell again. ???? I would have to ask.
But now I have 6hrs labor into them, and the tweets. I also re-shot the front along with the rest of the work as stated in prior thread.


J/S-S1A :D

[sourceoneaudio]

Hey, I was just pulling your chain. I'd rather have the bits in the middle than the Klipsch bits.


Widget


Ouch!!!!!!:blink: That makes my feelings hurt............... (Klipsch bits)

I think thats a much better improvement than any EV tweet for an upgrade/addition. I did not have any Butt Cheeks lying around to try. That would have been my second choice if I had them in stock.

J/S-S1A

[avguytx]

sourceoneaudio....correct me if I'm wrong but that crossover you're using looks a lot like the old inline passive crossovers that Rockford used to use for their Audax and Polydax tweeters years ago. Are they per chance? I remember those colors of wire for input/output! I remember them having a 12db/oct and 18db/oct version.

Also, that wire (the blue/silver) looks like Lightning Audio or maybe Stinger 12ga wire. Are you an "old school" car audio dude like me? I'm 40 now...lol

Maybe I should pick up a pair of tweeters and tinker with mine some more! lol If only I had the space to keep them....

[avguytx]

I did not have any Butt Cheeks lying around to try. That would have been my second choice if I had them in stock.
J/S-S1A

Hmmm....I know where a perfect pair of those are at. I may have to borrow them from him and see what they do.

[sourceoneaudio]

avguytx (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=6083)
Yes I'm old school car audio, been through RTTI and the RTTI advanced. I also worked very close with Ted, and Jeff over at PPI when they were in charge. I was probably the first person in Phoenix back in 1984 to put 5 PPI-275's in a car. They though I was a nut. When they heard about what I was up to they came from the factory to take a look see. I also had 3 cars in the first C.A.N event put on by Alpine when it all began.

The x-overs are the TX-188 10k and up 18db version From Rockford. I still have a couple of sets lying around.

In the business still and loving every minute of it. (Home and Car Audio)


J/S-S1A :rockon2:

[jackgiff]

If your buddy is going to restore those 846A's, he might need a new set of grilles. Most of the old ones are broken up pretty badly. I have one set left out of 6 pairs I had made several years ago, when I restored two pairs of Valencias and had an equipment cabinet built. If he is interested, please let me know. Here are some pics.

[sourceoneaudio]

Mr. Jack Giff,
Thank you for the offer. I think he will desire those for restoration. What do you need for a pair. ($$$$) You can PM if so desired. It has been a pleasure talking to you. I just ordered the cabinets for the Klipsch K-67 Tweets where they will reside when project is finished. I will post pictures after I get them loaded.


J/S-S1A :D

[jackgiff]

One pair came with enough grille left, that a sign maker was able to program his CNC router to duplicate the pattern.
I have been saving them to restore my original Val's, but it looks like they will last my lifetime. Both of the Vals in the pics have these grilles. The apparent color difference is due simply to the background light.

Thanks, Jack Gifford

[sourceoneaudio]

Glad to know there is a fellow proud Altec owner in Phoenix.

I told you there was a difference in the sound - couldn't you hear it?

;)

-Storm.

One thing I would like to add here. The difference comes from inputing part of the bandwidth that is missing on the 806A driver. This addition comes from reading and taking information in the above post. (link is present) The driver I added is being used as a UHF driver because of the dramatic fall off the stock Altec driver has. I your case if/what you think is a great improvement, and looking at the 6db network installed on your array I think most of what your hearing is an overlap/spike.

I am still totally confused as to why these sound so much better.. Being a lover of both EV and Altec, I should be the first to embrace these, but can only see harm with the addition of these tweeters. Adding something like my 2405H's would do wonders as the Altec horns lack UHF's. but these T-35's do little more than bump up frequencies already well presented by the Altec's.. which may be what Storm likes about them, but it may confuse others with similair speakers as to what the real differences should be...

This is what nightbrace is trying to explain here. I think a better driver and a better x-over network design would yield you results that are true to the human ear, and fill in what is missing. When I get mine totally done I want you to come over for a listen OK? Then you can see and understand what we are talking about.

J/S-S1A :D

[jim campbell]

hey sourceone.........i want to beef up the stock stereo in my ford f150/02 and i really want to stay away from the stuff that the stores sell nowadays as to me they are all about thump thump and nothing else.what do you think?

[sourceoneaudio]

Hello Jim,
I can give you some help in that area. Send me a private message with your e-mail address, and I'll give you some product recommendations for your vehicle. I will be back later this afternoon. Good talking to you.

J/S-S1A :D

[louped garouv]

hey sourceone.........i want to beef up the stock stereo in my ford f150/02 and i really want to stay away from the stuff that the stores sell nowadays as to me they are all about thump thump and nothing else.what do you think?

the high end auto sound drivers are quite good....

just leave out the 3 10" woofers....

when I was into car audio, MB Quart seperates sounded very nice.....
http://www.cardomain.com/shopbrand/MB%2520Quart
(BTW I do not know how (IE the quality of the operation) the retailer I linked to does business... so YMMV)

I did hear of someone that installed TADs in his car back then, so you could go that way too..... ;)

[sourceoneaudio]

Well about a week ago I did some messing around on paper and decided to lower the x-over point from 10k @ 18db per octave on the tweeter addition on the 846A's I'm working on. With looking at the graph some more, I decided to try it at 8500 @ 18db. This has made a difference on blending. it has brought the gap closer together, and they do sound nicer on the top end. (smoother and not so localized) I also seem to think at this time no L-Pad is needed to tone them down. They do not seem to be at all to bright, or piercing. These are an excellent sounding driver/horn assembly. So I think for the duration we will try without. They can aways be added later very easy if he so desires them. The Cabinets that will house the Klipsch K-67 Horns will be done this week I will post pics when done.

All connections soldered, and dimple crimped.

Jeff
J/S-S1A :coolness:

[sourceoneaudio]

Well the cabinets showed up late last night, so I threw in the towel and decided to finish this morning, still recovering from surgery. The cabinets came out great, ended up flush mounting the drivers, used a nice 5 way binding post on the rear, and did the cabinets in Oak Veneer. They look, and sound great. The owner is going to handle the refinish on the veneer, and the re-stain. See pics below.

Tell me what you all think. Thank you.

J/S-S1A :D

[clmrt]

"Tell me what you all think."

Why so much volume?

I'd also port them...lol

[sourceoneaudio]

Built the cabinets to match the width of the Valencias, When they are stained should look nice also should blend better from a cosmetic standpoint.

J/S-S1A :D

[SMKSoundPro]

Dear S1A,

I have the same Valencia's here...846a model, and I have 2405, and I just remembered, some 2404h baby butt cheeks available for this project.

Question: Can I mount the tweeter on the existing baffle board at the 10:00am or 2:00pm postion above the woofer? ( to keep it simple)

I certainly understand a vertical axis of drivers, but see mama JBL mount some of their tweets in the studio monitors to the horizontal left and right of the horn driver.

Question: What was your cap and inductor values?

Question: Did you hook these Valencias up to a 3 way active xover, and sweep the uhf xover point, reading a rta, for the best crossover frq and slope? (This is my plan of attack)

Thank you for the graph of the horn driver output.

Scott.

[Zilch]

Why so much volume?

I'd also port them...lolIt's a STASH, silly clmrt.

[Port's on the bottom.... :thmbsup: ]

[sourceoneaudio]

Dear SMKSoundPro (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=1765),
Thank you for the inquiry on my project. This subject has been up on the forum for quite a while with other members doing the same thing to get the 846A's sound better, and complete on the top end. I took the curve that is on this page from another post that was also discussing this issue. I have pink noise ava. on a test disc but no way to measure it. (RTA) So with the evidence at hand I printed it and took a pencil to it, and first tried a 18db network @ 10k because that is where the -10 drop ends but found it to be too distant by listening to it and running different music through it.
So as I stated in a previous thread I dropped it to 8500k @ 18db per octave to bring the gap closer, and having an L-pad in the waiting if I found it to be to bright or too localized. I've been running it now for about three days with this network on it, and I like the way it sounds and it is not to bright, and has smoothed out and blended nice, no L-pad needed.
If you have a set of Baby Butt Cheeks I doubt they will fit where you want to put them, but if you have some 2405H's they should fit fine in your placement areas. I would do them mirror image outer placement left one at 10:00 and right one at 2:00. I also think the lowest you can take them is 7500hz so that should be a good blend you will probably need an L-pad (100 watt) though because they are so efficient.
I can give you the values of the x-over parts needed for an 18db network at 7500hz.
Good luck and let me know how they turn out.

Jeff
J/S-S1A :blink:

Butterworth Alignment: 18db network at 7500hz
C1= 1.77uf
L1= .13 mH
C2= 5.31uf
All parts ava. www.partsexpress.com (http://www.partsexpress.com)

[sourceoneaudio]

It's a STASH, silly clmrt.

[Port's on the bottom.... :thmbsup: ]

The wife will never suspect a thing. They have all kinds of hidden panels. Hidden stereo/HIFI gear funds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J/S-S1A :rockon2:

[sourceoneaudio]

SMKSoundPro (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=1765)

Here is a couple more pics for you to look at. The values on the x-over parts in above thread are for an 8ohm driver. Let me know if you need different values for a different impedance.



J/S-S1A :D

[Zilch]

The problem with sticking 2405s down there is they are quite beamy.

Check the specs:

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2405.pdf

Whether it's the 25° or 35° vertical dispersion at 16 kHz you accept (40° at 10 kHz,) you'll have to sit on the floor to hear the VHF.

Listen to a 2405 playing just VHF. It's quite apparent.

2404's a better choice if you can get it in there.

Forget 2402; it beams in ALL directions....

[sourceoneaudio]

Zilch,
Thank you for the extra info, and the driver being so directional is a big factor, and I under stand your point. The gentleman in Alaska doing the same project, this will help him a lot.
Should work real good in my new center channel design though, that will be a very interesting project. You will like it much.

J/S-S1A :blink:

[SMKSoundPro]

I understand your point and agree. The customer, also a Scott, plans on using them in his living room/pro tools studio to make dance mixes and the like. I cannot say they will be on the floor, and knowing Scott, will put them up on stands or angle them up.

I agree to your advice to build a small box for the tweet to be placed on the top of the enclosure. Let's see what happens next.

Thanks,
Scott.