Look at my new babies...Altec 846Bs w/EV Tweeters! [Archive]

scott fitlin

02-17-2007, 10:46 AM

What I have always found, either with Altec or JBL horns, is that when they run all the way up, they tend to sound a bit shrill at times. Adding tweeters and rolling the horn off where the tweeter comes in tames this.

We used to use eight Altec 808,s on small Community horns with Al phragms, and tangerine phase plugs as tweeters years ago, and to my ears they had the nicest sound, softish, but shimmering golden top end.

And, with the Altec gear, as well as JBL, it was always dependent on system setup and all the other gear being used. Some drivers sounded better to me on a certain amp, and not so good on a different amp, even though they were the same power rating.

I have heard Altec speakers sound incredible, and the same for JBL, and I have heard systems using both brands sound terrible too. I know one thing for sure, I dont like most modern amps for powering vintage compression drivers or tweeters.

I have this theory that amps and speakers of the same particular era seem to work best together.. Just my opinion!

FFWD to today, I have nice new JBL 2242 loaded ported subs, WidgetWorks Custom, and they sound INCREDIBLE with Crown Macro Tech 3600,s or a QSC Powerlight 6.0II. But I cant stand either amp on my older horn loaded subs. Go figure?

:)

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 10:51 AM

Some drivers sounded better to me on a certain amp, and not so good on a different amp.

:)

I tried 4 or 5 power sources with the F's. The SAME ERA Marantz sounded best, was just too low on needed power.

sourceoneaudio

02-17-2007, 10:58 AM

I would try moving the tweet top center horizontal, since that is the correct dispersion pattern for that driver. Probably make a huge difference, and like Scott said with rolling of the mid horn, check the x-over for a true band pass so you have no overlapping frequency's and impedance dips.

J/S-S1A :p

scott fitlin

02-17-2007, 11:02 AM

I tried 4 or 5 power sources with the F's. The SAME ERA Marantz sounded best, was just too low on needed power.I agree, and to add to this, I kind of find many of the older low power amps, say amps up to about 50wpc, seem to have the sweetest sounding top end and midrange.

My solution? Low power amps on highly efficient horns and tweeters, bigger amps with better bass on woofers. Best of both worlds.You gotta find the RIGHT xover too.

I also find alot of todays SS amps, no matter how low or high powered to sound too bright and unforgiving on compression horns and tweeters of the past, but sound terrific on modern speakers using cone mids and modern tweeters. But, still a different sound than vintage.

spwal

02-17-2007, 12:22 PM

Its his amplification. hes using a pioneer dvd player and an old altec amp. why is no one else seeing this?

what is the point of having incredibly detailed speakers if they are going to only reflect the shortcomings of the rest of your system.

"They smooth out the harsh highs and bring it down to a listenable level"

You think Altec highs are harsh but an EV T-35 isn't? That's interesting. I've heard Altec highs describes as soft, rolled-off or missing (and to some extent I agree) but never harsh.

Whereas if the T-35 had been developed a few years earlier we could have avoided dropping the A-bombs on Japan.

Well it's a subjective hobby, that's for damned sure.

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 12:30 PM

Its his amplification. hes using a pioneer dvd player and an old altec amp. why is no one else seeing this?

what is the point of having incredibly detailed speakers if they are going to only reflect the shortcomings of the rest of your system.

sure, but he JUST bought that Altec receiver for the identical speakers to recover what was missing. He is BIG on bass. Is a 12wpc receiver really going to do that ?

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 12:32 PM

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 12:37 PM

"I would try moving the tweet top center horizontal, since that is the correct dispersion pattern for that driver."

EV intended the horn to be used with the long axis vertically for widest dispersion and EV usually used it vertically, the only time I recall EV using it horizontally was in the Eliminator.

PWK used the thing horizontally, who knows why.

they used it with the wrong orientation so as to fit in the now plugged up port , with no mods. wonder if the xover is right for it ?

shud be real nice for 2 or 3 foot sweet spot until turned as it shud be.

scott fitlin

02-17-2007, 12:41 PM

"I would try moving the tweet top center horizontal, since that is the correct dispersion pattern for that driver."

EV intended the horn to be used with the long axis vertically for widest dispersion and EV usually used it vertically, the only time I recall EV using it horizontally was in the Eliminator.

PWK used the thing horizontally, who knows why.In SR apps, sometimes reorienting the horns position changes the throw, and the eliminator was an SR cabinet. They may have done that to get longer throw. Not sure, but I know guys still do this with some things to get the throw they want.

JBL has current SR cabs with rotatable horns.

Mr. Widget

02-17-2007, 12:46 PM

Check out my new babies.

And yes, the 846U's are going to be sold.I have a pair of 846 U speakers and they are my first and only speakers. I have heard other high end speakers and the JBL L100 and I would never "move on". Once you get yours up and running, you will never need to move on up.:rotfl:

I'm simply shocked!

Widget

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 12:49 PM

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/T35A%20EDS.pdf

Info on the mighty T-35, as can be seen it's not particularly extended, I think an 802-902 on an 811 goes out as high. But EV used phenolic midrange drivers and needed tweeters.

I used to have a half a dozen blown ones, gave them away to use as ashtrays. They were painted purple, from Heil Sound.

I've heard some good EV rigs though, I liked the Sentry III and IV.

Mr. Widget

02-17-2007, 12:51 PM

PWK used the thing horizontally, who knows why.Tom is right... the T-35, T-35A and the T350 use a diffraction horn and they are meant to be used vertically.

As for PWK... in the early Cornwalls the T-35s were mounted vertically. My guess is that the tweeters were used horizontally as it fit the La Scala, Klipschorn, and Heresy packages the best... they probably had wise guys like us asking why the Cornwall was different so they quietly changed it to match their flagship, the mighty Klipschorn, with it's myriad of well known compromises. (I'd still like a pair in rosewood or macassar ebony.:D )

Widget

scott fitlin

02-17-2007, 01:03 PM

they probably had wise guys like us asking why the Cornwall was different so they quietly changed it to match their flagship

WidgetThey had wise guys like us back then?

The term " audiophille " wasnt invented yet, I dont think.

:dont-know

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 01:06 PM

:rotfl:

I'm simply shocked!

Widget

me too :rotfl: :rotfl:

In my opnion, the unfinished birch is WAY more attractive than any Walnut veneer. Just because it sold for cheaper, does not mean it is cheaper. I would easily say it is worth 10% more than regular 846B walnut.

-Storm.

Seriously, though...I think my generation is done with dark colors and especially the walnut - yuck!

Yes, these were my first speakers and they will be my last.

-Storm.

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 01:10 PM

I'd love to see what the networks look like to incorporate the EV Tweeters. I've never felt the need to supplement the UHF's with my 19's, but in a soft room, it might be something to consider. As I agree that they do not compare to the UHF's on the L300's. But few speakers do :D.

Tom is right, the highs should be more detailed and if anything "harsher" as the highs on your Altec 846U's roll off fairly soon and I too have never heard the UHF's being described as overbearing on any Altec horn for that matter, but I will agree that the mid-HF's can be a bit overbearing with the wrong gear.

That being said, I think you'd go "nuts" for a set of L300's for a number of reasons, but most notably high powered SS DC amps do wonders with the L300 with none of the harsh and overbearing mid-HF issues of the Altec's with similiar gear. The Altecs do respond well to EQing if you MUST use a SS DC amp.

If you MUST have Altec and do not want to consider anything JBL, stop wasting you time trying every Altec under the sun and take my advice and go with the 19's. Especially with a softer tube amp and a better CD player like my NAD with Burr-brown op-amps and some "decent" cables, many of the higher priced cables do more harm than good. I use Magnavox "el cheapo" interconnects. I think I paid $20 for them (and unfortunately I cannot find them anymore anywhere :(), but they sound better than the $229 Audioquest cables I tried.

The 416-8c woofers are better in the upper bass and mids. But the 416-8b woofers (in about 80% of all the 19's I've seen) will be a definite improvement over your Valencia(s) with the 416-8Z's in their respective cabinets.

Tubes make Altec's sing and smooth out the harshness in the mid-HF's quite a bit.. And contrary to what many people here have told you, the bass is exceptional, but you gotta choose the right tube amp and output tubes. Some of the poorer tube amps have this problem of not producing enough bass, and I will agree that most will not compare to a Solid State amp for bass, but their are several that work as well as a SS amp as long as you don't need SPL's of over 120 dB (something that I wouldn't recommend for ANY home speaker),

Your Valencia's are already producing 98 dB @ 1 watt @ 1 m, so a 10-25 watt RMS @ 8 Ohm tube amp will do just fine and get you playing pretty loud for most practical purposes. My HH Scott 222c with 7591 output tubes has ~20 watts RMS and I have never had the need for more wattage or have ever had the amp start to "soft-clip". I have measured levels of 120 dB with my 19's with this amps with no fatigue and no harshness and no evidence of any clipping. Continous dB levels of 110-115 are actually ok with the 19's, but there is NO need for this. 105 dB for most practical puposes is loud enough @ 1 meter. And I personally like to listen between 90-100 dB for music. And about all your amp will be running is 1 REAL watt at this level. But it is nice to have plenty in reserve for more dynamic headroom. But again, not needed with a speaker as efficient as yours.

7591 output tubes are as good as I've heard and would HIGHLY recommend trying a Sherwood with your Altec's on a budget., the HH Scotts go for 3x as much, but I noticed almost no difference. I just like the Scott's aesthetics better. Some of those Sherwoods are 40 watts RMS and can be had for under $200.

There is a Magnavox tube amp that would work to near perfection with your Valencias (or the 19's), I had a similiar amp in a bi-amp set-up and I could not have been happier. But it would not be capable of producing some of the volumes necessary for movies and explosions and such so I sold it.

For normal listening with high quality material, I think you'll be totally pleased with the Magnavox, just wouldn't work as well for movies as something with a little more headroom. . The one being sold here is not a 4 channel amp like the one I had with the ability to bi-amp, but you can run it normally just fine.. And if you have a CD player with a variable output, there's no real need for a pre-amp.

I can find the link for you, but its located in the for sale section.. I think he wants $295 for it.. And depending upon the networks of your new 846B's it should work fantastic. I'll have to scrounge up some some of my old EV catalogs to determine if thats a T-35 tweeter, but it looks to be EV at least and the efficiency should be pretty close. It all has to do with how they blended it into the system via the crossover. If you are able, post some pics, I am interested to see.

Your selling your other Valencias :(, are these new ones that good?

scott fitlin

02-17-2007, 01:10 PM

Thats exactly how it starts. Every speaker was going to be my last speaker, but, dozens of different woofers and tweeters, and amps later etc........

1. We admitted our lives had become unmanageable, and that we were out of storage space.

:D

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 01:14 PM

those look exactly like the k77 klipsch tweeters (the bell part at least) in both my hereseys and cornwalls...

storm-- get some decent amplification so that you can REALLY get your speakers rocking. You have 1200 bucks to buy another pair of the speakers you pretty much already have, so its not a liquidity issue.

I wonder how those custom tweeters affect the value of the speaker.

Couldn't agree more about the amplification. No need to spend $1200, but there are MUCH better options than what he is using, and definitely needs a decent CD player.

They have to hurt the value..

loach71

02-17-2007, 01:14 PM

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 01:29 PM

"The Sentry III and IV used the SM120A horn with DH1506 compression driver,"

Nah, I think they used the 1823-1824M mid driver on the SM-120A, depending on whether or not they were from before or after the switch from Alnico to ferrite. Tweeter was the ST-350 a WHOLE diifferent animal than the T-350.

SM-120As make a great substitution for the death ray mid horns on Klipsch LaScalas. They helped my LaScalas ALOT though looking back I now realize that even unhooking the mids would have helped alot.

The SM-120A was a very cool looking horn and worked down to 400hz too.

Fella in Germany sent me this picture of his EV rig with SM-120s and ST-350s, note the single Khorn bassbin sub up near the ceiling.

loach71

02-17-2007, 01:35 PM

"The Sentry III and IV used the SM120A horn with DH1506 compression driver,"

Nah, they used the 1823-1824M mid driver on the SM-120A, depending on whether or not they were from before or after the switch from Alnico to ferrite. Tweeter was the ST-350 a WHOLE diifferent animal than the T-350.

SM-120As make a great substitution for the death ray mid horns on Klipsch LaScalas. They helped my LaScalas ALOT though looking back I now realize that even unhooking the mids would have helped alot.

Just picked up some IIIs and IVs - they came with DH1506s ...??
Im always looking for SM120A horns...my favorite 1" CD horn

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 01:43 PM

"Just picked up some IIIs and IVs - they came with DH1506s "

Hmmm. Perhaps they changed mid drivers along the way. I'm pretty sure they used the 1823 and 1824M at least for awhile.

Storm

02-17-2007, 02:12 PM

Storm

02-17-2007, 02:16 PM

Your selling your other Valencias :(, are these new ones that good?

Yes, they are that good.

I played Pink Floyd and on the other speakers, when I played it loud - Gilmours voice would become distorted. I can turn these up another notch and they sound very clear.

-Storm.

loach71

02-17-2007, 02:25 PM

EV was notorious for changing the driver loads in their systems.
I changed my KHorns in a similar fashion - SM120A with a JBL 2426 comp driver and a JBL 2404 baby cheek tweeter, all in a custom made enclosure sitting on top of a JBL 2220A in a 200Hz horn. Made a four way KHorn -- which is run with 4 way active crossover -- with a BGW 750 for the KHorn, a BGW 250 for the JBL 2220A, and BGW 150s for the JBL2426 and 2404. The system is crossed over at the following points:

KHorn woofer - 25 Hz hi pass - 400 Hz low pass
JBL 2220A horn - 400 Hz hi pass - 930 Hz low pass
JBL 2426 / EV SM120A horn -930 Hz - 9.3 KHz low pass
JBL 2404 - 9.3 KHz hi pass - 25 KHz low pass

This rework removed that objectionable "honk" in the KHorn - especially in the voice band. Maybe the KHorn should have been a 4 way system in the first place?

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 02:33 PM

dear old Dad left me his pair of VOTT's. They were EV Wolverine drivers. Dont remember the model numbers. everything was dead xcept LF. :(

loach71

02-17-2007, 02:38 PM

Another fine example of surreptitious driver swapping... LOL

Zilch

02-17-2007, 02:43 PM

The x-over looks re-done.In what respect?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147437#post147437

check the x-over for a true band pass so you have no overlapping frequency's and impedance dips.Didn't happen.

I'm reminded of a recent article upgrading EV T35s in Klipsh to 2404H.... ;)

Let me know what you think of the pictures.Very well done, Storm. :thmbsup:

Edit: Article is "Replacing the Klipschorn Tweeter" in AudioXpress, 2/2005, subtitled "Tweeter Fix for Vintage Horns."

Anechoic response curve for T35 is shown. It drops off precipitously above 10 kHz. Someone should measure a couple to confirm.....

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 02:48 PM

The fella added a cap for the tweeter and it appears there may a resistor running between the terminals. In that respect.

Zilch

02-17-2007, 02:52 PM

The fella added a cap for the tweeter and it appears there may a resistor running between the terminals. In that respect.NPE....

loach71

02-17-2007, 03:15 PM

The EV T-35 isn't a particulary good tweeter. The polished versions make good coffee table conversation pieces.

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 03:24 PM

Tim---And it's interesting that it's successor, the butt-cheek ST-350, was used with CD EQ. I suspect that many DIYers and Klipsch modders using the horn aren't using the EQ.
http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/ST350B%20EDS.pdf

Do you know if the EV butt-cheek was a Keele design Tim?

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 03:32 PM

It drops off precipitously above 10 kHz. .

10 is cool . The amp only goes up to 10, so a good match (amps with 11 hadn't been produced yet) :bouncy:

I think they addressed that on Mythbusters.....er, no...that was

"The Brown Note"....isn't that what storm is shooting for ??

Zilch

02-17-2007, 04:04 PM

10 is cool . The amp only goes up to 10, so good match (amps with 11 hadn't been produced yet) :bouncy:No joke, actually.

I'm certainly opposed to the "band-aid" approach to fixing vintage speakers with shotgun substitution of crappy vintage amps. A comprehensive analysis of the speakers themselves is the only rational approach for a dedicated curve junkie.... :p

loach71

02-17-2007, 05:00 PM

10 is cool . The amp only goes up to 10, so a good match (amps with 11 hadn't been produced yet) :bouncy:

I think they addressed that on Mythbusters.....er, no...that was

"The Brown Note"....isn't that what storm is shooting for ??

I seem to achieved "The Brown Note" in my 2245H loaded 4688 TCB build.

Thanks to Zilcher-oo and his BB6 Pro help!
Too much information here folks...:D

Zilch

02-17-2007, 05:04 PM

It's time we saw some PICS over in that poor ol' TCB thread.... :thmbsup:

loach71

02-17-2007, 05:10 PM

Wll do. I am a bit slowed up right now - twisted my right knee damnit! It looks like a watermelon..

The MDF version of the 4688 worked so well that I started laminating the the Baltic Birch plywood and MDF for the "final" version (if there is ever a final version of a project on this board!)

I was surpised with the 4688 / 2245H variant -- it has no bandpass "boombox" sound. It is "just there" when needed by the program material or the silliness of the owner. Thanks again for the BB6 Pro help...

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 05:16 PM

Yes, they are that good.

I played Pink Floyd and on the other speakers, when I played it loud - Gilmours voice would become distorted. I can turn these up another notch and they sound very clear.

-Storm.

Hmm, maybe there is something wrong with the crossovers on your 846U's. Vocals should be not become distorted with them. In fact Altec's do vocals as good as any vintage speaker I have heard. And they are very satisfying up to 15 kHz. And only on highly intricate high quality material do I ever feel the need to want to go back to my L300's. Trust me it doesn't happen often as I sold the L300's as overall they were not as satisfying, but they did do highs a bit better. But luckily I have my S21's with comparable highs for those highly detailed tracks. If you can notice discernible differences beyond 15 kHz, then you have an amazing ear, because I honestly cannot distinguish any "music" beyond this, but there is more brillance to a speaker that goes higher, its hard to explain. . But there are certainly no vocals above 15 kHz and definitely not Pink Floyd.

Contrary to what a lot of JBL afficiandos say, Altec horn speakers can handle even the highest pitched singers with ease. With some singers vocals come out of the woofers on my Altec 19's and sometimes get a little "fuzzy" on certain notes at the crossover point. Bi-amping took care of this completely, but the amp I was using didn't have the wattage I was wanting for movies. It doesn't happen often enough to worry about, but it sounds similiar to what you are describing. Onw day I'll be building new networks as close to stock spec as possible with better components as there may be some minor issues with the stock networks, but I can't imagine they were any better than they are now than when they were brand new/

All the EV tweeters will really do is re-inforce a certain higher frequency range and I am sure there is some cross-pollination between the Altec horns and the EV tweeters with those networks. Which could give the illusion of better imaging. What they may be doing is the same as what an EQ will do, re-inforce certain frequencies with more volume and perhaps not more information.

I'll find these tweeters in my literature, now that I know what they are, it shouldn't be too hard... I doubt they go much higher than the Altec horns by themselves.

An interesting experiment would be to disconnect the EV tweeters (assuming the rest of the networking is stock) which it appears to be. And compare both speakers this way.

If one sounds noticably better then there may be something wrong with your 846U's. Having not heard either version I am not in a postion to say what the differences may be, but I'd imagine the differences to be very subtle and not as noticeable as what you are describing if they are both operating correctly that is.

If after trying this and they both sound close to the same. But if the distortion you are describing is the same for both, then its obvious that your liking what the EV tweeter is doing to the sound.

However, there's no law that says you can't keep both speakers.

spwal

02-17-2007, 06:33 PM

If you MUST have Altec and do not want to consider anything JBL, stop wasting you time trying every Altec under the sun and take my advice and go with the 19's. Especially with a softer tube amp and a better CD player like my NAD with Burr-brown op-amps and some "decent" cables, many of the higher priced cables do more harm than good. I use Magnavox "el cheapo" interconnects. I think I paid $20 for them (and unfortunately I cannot find them anymore anywhere :(), but they sound better than the $229 Audioquest cables I tried.

Tubes make Altec's sing and smooth out the harshness in the mid-HF's quite a bit.. And contrary to what many people here have told you, the bass is exceptional, but you gotta choose the right tube amp and output tubes. Some of the poorer tube amps have this problem of not producing enough bass, and I will agree that most will not compare to a Solid State amp for bass, but their are several that work as well as a SS amp as long as you don't need SPL's of over 120 dB (something that I wouldn't recommend for ANY home speaker),

Your selling your other Valencias :(, are these new ones that good?

Storm--- Please buy an Pass Labs Aleph 3 or aleph 30 for 900-1050. You can sell them in 1 day for the same money. it will blow your mind.

Also, I had 2 wadia cd players (Great Northern Sound 830 and Stock 23). sorry, my NAD cant hold a candle to super high end cdps.

I currently run a fully modified Red Wine Audio Squeezebox as my source and just use the upgraded dac in there. I had a belcanto Dac2 (four of them actually through the years), and ya its better, but not that much better. A little fuller and fleshed out...

STORM PLEASE GET A DECENT AMP. ONE THAT COST 1000-1500 that people like to snap up right away, so you wont get stuck with a white elephant.

spwal

02-17-2007, 06:37 PM

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1176849875

no affiliation. I wont own another of these since i am into cheap clones now. but ya, great build quality.... sounded excellent. google it.

Bel Canto Design eVo2 Gen 2 - trades considered Asking$950.00 obo New Retail$3200.00 Condition8/10 (http://www.audiogon.com/scale.html#8) Days/Views1 / 301 Ship costPlus shipping (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ship.pl?ampstran&1176849875&class&3&4&&gz) Ship from45 lbs from 07871 (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ship.pl?07871&&zip) Ship toUSA only IncludedBox, Manual About Seller Grandenigma1 (6) (http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/feedview.pl?user=Grandenigma1&1&1&1&1&)
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Description I bought this amp with thoughts of scaling down my stereo setup and instead focusing more on a home theater setup but have since decided against doing so.

This amp did a fantastic job driving both my Tyler Linbooks and Ascend Acoustics.

To my understanding it is one of that last few of the Evo2 Gen2 produced and thusly has been tweaked a bit.

It has a few light scratches on top of the unit but the faceplate and the rest is in excellent condition.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

I AM ALSO OPEN TO TRADES (AMPs, TTs, CDPs, DACs, Speakers, and so on...)

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 07:14 PM

STORM PLEASE GET A DECENT AMP. ONE THAT COST 1000-1500 that people like to snap up right away, so you wont get stuck with a white elephant.

I'd hardly call my HH Scott 222c a White Elephant, its the best sounding amp that I've tried with my Altec 19's for its price (under $400). The amps you are suggesting may work well with the speakers you are using, but there's no real reason to spend so much for a modest speaker like his Valencia's.

While I understand the advantages with the dig. transports you mentioned. My NAD works perfectly OK with the Altecs as there is no major concern with frequencies over 15 kHz when jitter and higher sampling rates are more critical,.

I cannot agree more that the gear he is using does little more than to mask the potential hidden in these speakers, and even with $200 he can find something leaps and bounds ahead of what he is using.. Which is why I recommended a hi-fi amp like a 70's Pioneer and "decent" Sony CD player as its not a big risk.

The units you are mentioning will cost several times what he paid for the speakers. And for his use, will not be worth the money until he understands what the differences are, you gotta make a big leap before you can make baby steps up the ladder in audio.

For ~ $500 for a CD player and amp, I cannot imagine finding a better combo more suited for his Valencias than my NAD and HH Scott and a comparable Sherwood tube amp will cost 1/3rd what the HH Scott does with almost identical sound and more wattage. This combo will make a set of L300's put you to sleep, but for the Valencia's not much out there will be any better unless he's willing to spend more for the gear than the speakers.

avguytx

02-17-2007, 07:44 PM

Funny. Most of the information they used for their auction they robbed from my auction. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190079058191&rd=1&rd=1)

That picture of the crossover in their auction is from mine, too if you look closely. Notice how the conveniently drop off the serial numbers after they copied it verbatim till that point. Those look like shit compared to mine. Definitely not worth double the money of what mine ended at. I guess it's all about how close someone is to them.

I guess the only thing they have going over mine is that they have the stock foam grills. Oh well....

SEAWOLF97

02-17-2007, 07:52 PM

Funny. Most of the information they used for their auction they robbed from my auction. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190079058191&rd=1&rd=1)

That picture of the crossover in their auction is from mine, too if you look closely. Those look like shit compared to mine. Definitely not worth double the money of what mine ended at. I guess it's all about how close someone is to them.
.

Dang...he paid a lot for those EV HF's ???? :blink: what are they worth in the REAL world ?

Zilch

02-17-2007, 07:56 PM

Funny. Most of the information they used for their auction they robbed from my auction. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEUS%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190079058191&rd=1&rd=1) So dumb, they copied the thumbnail, not the full pic.

The other thing I'm not fathoming is the absence of the tweeters, or even mention of them, in the auction. :dont-know

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 08:05 PM

I think its obvious that the seller didn't mention these tweeters for a reason as a stock set of Valencia's is worth more than a pair with the incorrect components.

avguytx

02-17-2007, 08:20 PM

I think its obvious that the seller didn't mention these tweeters for a reason as a stock set of Valencia's is worth more than a pair with the incorrect components.

That's true. He sure got a premium amount for a non-stock pair of speakers, huh. Lucky for him Storm came along! lol

Nightbrace

02-17-2007, 08:26 PM

That's true. He sure got a premium amount for a non-stock pair of speakers, huh. Lucky for him Storm came along! lol

LOL, tis true, but at least he's happy :). What did yours go for again? Less than $600 if I recall, and not just once, twice... and yours are all stock...

avguytx

02-17-2007, 08:38 PM

LOL, tis true, but at least he's happy :). What did yours go for again? Less than $600 if I recall, and not just once, twice... and yours are all stock...

Yeah....I guess it's all about location. As long as he's happy, I guess that's what counts. Mine are still sitting covered up in the garage. Maybe they will find a nice home one day. They are worth way more than $600...at least I think so. But does the market? lol

JBLRaiser

02-17-2007, 08:42 PM

Hey there everyone!

Look at my new toys!

I don't know if anyone was following the eBay auction for the Valencias in Scottsdale, Arizona - but I was. Only a three day auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270089819246&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=017

Check out my new babies.

And yes, the 846U's are going to be sold.

To everyone who was telling me to add a tweeter; now I completely understand the need for a tweeter on the valencias. They smooth out the harsh highs and bring it down to a listenable level, very pleasurable I might add.

I paid $1200.00, but I think I got a good deal - especially because I got to pick them up only an hour after the auction ended.

Have a look and tell me what you think.

I think the tweeters are EV T-35's?

Thanks!

-Storm.

:p

If they sound fine, everyone is happy.

Tom Brennan

02-17-2007, 09:14 PM

"the seller didn't mention these tweeters for a reason as a stock set of Valencia's is worth more than a pair with the incorrect components."

What, Storm's speakers? They have extra components not wrong ones. And the mod is cleanly done and easily reversed with only a few screw holes left. And note that the foam around the horn is still intact, you don't see that very often. Remove the EVs and put in some small foam patches and you'll have a stock set better looking than most.

In any event Storm is the fella setting Valencia values this week, not you.

Zilch

02-17-2007, 09:58 PM

I think its obvious that the seller didn't mention these tweeters for a reason as a stock set of Valencia's is worth more than a pair with the incorrect components.Nightbrace just scorin' more forum pals here.

:rotfl:

[Let no member be spared.... :thmbsup: ]

spwal

02-17-2007, 10:14 PM

The white elephant was in reference to spending alot of money. I, like many of us here, have done alot of audiogon transactions... once you get about around 1500, things get alot harder to move... you need bigger fish with deeper pockets. at under 1000 bucks there is a ton of interest.

I just wanted to make sure that he didnt make some outlandish purchase (like a 1200 dollar pair of modified vals heh) that will have less resale value when the experiment is done.

Though i have never heard the vals, arrent they essentially the same as 19s? What, then, makes them modest? cabinet size? They were my first choice... the 19s were serendipity. I went with the 19s heh.

The scott i am sure is a great tube amp. But you know what you are doing. He is not knowing what he is doing as much-- and rightly so, i think vintage tube amps are kinda tricky... with the wires and the caps and the power cords etc.

I have merely been pointing out to him several GREAT amps that will resell within HOURS of posting.

My rule of thumb is to ONLY buy what other people like, regardless of what i want. I have an asterix on there because i am curious about 1-off homemade stuff-- so that is a money pit for me, but other than that i never lose 1 cent on audio gear.

The belcanto evo 2 gen 2 for 900 shipped is a decent deal (these dont sell the wya they used to). The Aleph 3 for 850-900 shipped is a great deal. You cannot lose at these prices. Alternatively, he can try one of these warmer gainclone chipamps that are all the rage now. Homebrew ones only run a couple 100 bucks.

The only thing i disagree with you on Nightbrace, is the NAD source. though it is a step up from what he has, i dont think too highly of it at all. Again, it is a nifty dvdp that i have-- i love it for movies, but it is weaksauce as a cdp. of course a dedicated cdp from NAD may be a different story, but when it comes down to it they know that they are an entry level hifi company and are confortable positioning themselves as such.
without NAD, i would not have gone on the journey that i went on.

I dont know what to tell him for a source... maybe he should try a dac.

The bel canto DAC2 is a SICK dac and a great deal at 650-700. These have really come down in price. They sell within 1 day on agon at this price.

Hope this helps storm.

spwal

02-17-2007, 10:17 PM

that really is borderline rediculous that he doesnt mention the tweeters in the ad. hah not even in the specs part. hah unbelieveable.

SEAWOLF97

02-18-2007, 09:26 AM

In any event Storm is the fella setting Valencia values this week, not you.

just because he gets in a bidding war with some other yo-yo (prolly a shill), doesn't really establish anything, just an anomaly, like the pine AR3's.

Audiobeer

02-18-2007, 09:45 AM

I belive a seperate Altec section would better be served for the Value's. Most of us wouldn't know that it's missing the tweeter or even if it ever had one unless the Altec Experts posted it. It would be a great opportunity for some posters with a lot of energy. I checked with Techbot to see if he wanted to spearhead the project for Altec library. His response was a Spearhead launched within millimeters of my Driver. :applaud:

Shane Shuster

02-18-2007, 05:07 PM

just because he gets in a bidding war with some other yo-yo (prolly a shill), doesn't really establish anything, just an anomaly, like the pine AR3's.

Could be worse, he could have paid $1600 for L300's.

One man's great deal is another man's "you've got to be kidding me".

Audiobeer

02-18-2007, 05:50 PM

I don't think there isn't a member here that has owned a pair of L-300s that wouldn't hesitate to pay $1600 for a pair that needs foaming. If there is speak up.

Tom Brennan

02-18-2007, 06:00 PM

"I don't think there isn't a member here that has owned a pair of L-300s that wouldn't hesitate to pay $1600 for a pair that needs foaming."

Well yeah, seeing as they've already shown they favor them by having bought some, I reckon you're on safe ground.

sourceoneaudio

02-18-2007, 06:40 PM

I think the price paid was way to high for what they are, I offered him the set I have (846A's) that need one horn driver and some restoration/elbow grease for $500.00 that are stock. (5 miles away) But to each his own. Then we have this pair he missed with no work needed that look much nicer that what was purchased.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190079058191&rd=1&rd=1

J/S-S1A :D

Nightbrace

02-18-2007, 06:58 PM

They have extra components not wrong ones. And the mod is cleanly done and easily reversed with only a few screw holes left. And note that the foam around the horn is still intact, you don't see that very often. Remove the EVs and put in some small foam patches and you'll have a stock set better looking than most.

I see what you are saying, but I said if anything it hurts the value. Given that similiar pairs have not gotten over $600 recently, I cannot see how the addition of these tweeters adds $600 to the value of them, especially since they are not mentioned. (which is why I said that there may have been a reason) And the pictures themselves were transposed off of a member's photos and taken as their own. Not a seller or a set of speakers that I would personally want to spend $600 more for with, but thats me, and its obvious that someone out there thought it was worth it and bid accordingly. :D

Nightbrace

02-18-2007, 07:02 PM

Altec Valencias have typically sold between $500-$1000 depending upon condition. And with shipping being an issue the lower end is usually the norm unless an exceptional pair comes along. I hardly think these were exceptional and since there is NO mention in the auction about the tweeters and given that the pics are "stolen", there is no way of coming up with any reasonable estimate prior to bidding on them.. Again, I KNOW that I am probably wrong in this reasoning as they sold for twice as much as the Valencia's I've seen, so who knows.

At least they are being enjoyed and no amount of money can compensate for that. :)

avguytx

02-18-2007, 08:09 PM

Just to make sure it wasn't misinterpreted....there was only ONE photo that was copied from my auction....the Crossover photo. The rest of them are apparently theirs. Now, they DID copy the majority of my description, though! I sent the "seller" an email which was maybe a little sarcastic (lol) and he/she replied..."Sorry, I didn't see the copywrite jerkoff". I thought that was funny! I guess that's all he/she could come up with since they couldn't even come up with their own description...except for a few words!

Ok. I'm beating a dead horse. Sorry....

Nightbrace

02-18-2007, 10:23 PM

LOL. such harsh words.. At least some of the pictures were of the actual speakers.. Tell him your okay with it as long as he pays you to use your description :)/

Storm

02-19-2007, 02:29 AM

Source -

Why would I spend $500.00 on speakers that are not even ported and need work? The cabinets are shot and the one needs a new driver. I would spend about $300.00 plus my time - not worth it.

I bought these because of the rare original foam and the fact I wanted them.

I am enjoying them as we speak.

The seller was actually very nice. We met in a parking lot to do the transaction and he gave me a 24 hour window to test them. I did and I am thoroughly happy with them.

I wish some of you could hear the astonishing difference between both sets.

I disconnected the EV tweeter and man - what a difference. The altec horns' highs were way harsh. When I added the EV, the mids and especially the highs backed off and I am without listener fatigue.

To each his own..

And yes, my receiver pushes them just fine at 12.5 watts per channel.

-Storm.

:)

sourceoneaudio

02-19-2007, 07:22 AM

Opened one speaker and took some pictures.

The tweeters are 16 ohms. The tweeters are fed into the 806-8A driver.

Let me know what you think of the pictures.

Looks like the whoever did the MOD knew what they were doing. The x-over looks re-done.

-Storm.
Source -

I disconnected the EV tweeter and man - what a difference. The altec horns' highs were way harsh. When I added the EV, the mids and especially the highs backed off and I am without listener fatigue.

To each his own..

-Storm.

:)

Storm,
Your above statement makes no sense. Looks to me the Altec horn x-over has had no mods or additions, so the frequency's reproduced have not changed with or without the tweeter addition. You need to add a coil, or a 12db network to it to remove the top end, and also I would maybe do a 12db network on the tweeter, 6db would not be a way I would go, to harsh, not a sharp enough slope. The way it is set up now you have a major overlap at the given frequency the tweet is starting at.
Second I never said my Altec cabinets were shot I said they needed a resto and some veneer work. This is just some sanding and staining, lot less that $300.00.

J/S-S1A :D

spwal

02-19-2007, 07:36 AM

SEAWOLF97

02-19-2007, 10:15 AM

I wish some of you could hear the astonishing difference between both sets.-Storm.
:)

but I thot the old ones were already perfect ? :barf:

as long as you are happy Stormster, thats all that matters.

Nightbrace

02-19-2007, 10:37 AM

but I thot the old ones were already perfect ? :barf:

as long as you are happy Stormster, thats all that matters.

WOW, Altec went from great to crap overnight. Those EV tweeters should do little more than re-inforce certain frequencies... At least its good to know that they are both operating the same. Have you tried just running the EV tweeters without the horns? The frequency responses are actually pretty similiar in the higher frequencies.. And it just may be that you prefer EV's highs over Altec.

Nothing you have said makes any sense to any of us, and its good that you are enjoying your new speakers, but we're all a little baffled as to why you like them so much better.

Zilch

02-19-2007, 10:53 AM

i cant tell you how often i get emails like this. People say things in email they would never say face to face.Face to face, they'd get the spelling right.... :p

We're all a little baffled as to why you like them so much better.You can drop the "We," 'cause I'm not at all baffled.... :no:

Nightbrace

02-19-2007, 01:12 PM

Why are you not baffled?

Mr. Widget

02-19-2007, 01:26 PM

This is just not a very positive thread. Storm bought some new speakers and has made statements that many find contradictory with his earlier, myself included, however looking back on it, I probably made similar claims and discoveries 30 years ago early on in my audio infancy. Can we just let it alone. Some of the Altec contingent think that Altec are under priced at any price and others are giving Storm grief because he may have paid too much... we get it.... do we need to continue to hammer on the guy?

Storm, I know you have stated in the past that you have little respect for measurements and graphs, however, if you would like to know what the EV tweeter mod has actually done for your speakers, we can get a pretty good idea of the affects by looking at the photos. It appears that the tweeter has been added in series with the Altec HF and with a single 4uF cap. The single cap on the T-35 would translate to a gentle 6dB per octave slope at ~2.5KHz. If there is in fact a resistor used to pad down the EV tweeter hidden by the tweeter magnet, the crossover frequency would be raised. What this means is that the EV tweeter and the Altec HF driver are both covering the range above this frequency, and quite a bit below since the gentle slope takes several octaves to get the level down far enough to subjectively and objectively remove it audibly. From this plot, we can see that the EV T-35 has little output below 3KHz. (This plot is of a T-35 and was posted on a different thread. This plot is reported to be representative of the T-35 after measuring a large group of the drivers.)

What all this means is that by adding the EV tweeter there will be comb filtering effects and increased output somewhere above the 3-5Hz region up to the top end of the T-35's upper limit. This will subjectively add detail and a bit of brightness. Any affects on lowering perceived distortion or listener fatigue would be psycho-acoustic.

Widget

DaveV

02-19-2007, 01:27 PM

Poor Storm. He keeps coming back for more and now I'll join him for some punishment. I was going to keep my mouth shut but I've read so many comments I don't entirely agree with that I can't.

I did not really like my Flamencos until I added EV T-350 tweeters. There were NO real highs and the mids were too strong and somewhat garbled sounding to me. Kind of sounded like the sound waves were bouncing around in the horn throat or in the 806A driver itself. Yet overall the Flamencos sounded like they had potential.

The tweeters were tied in right off the amp with a simple cap for an xover at around 8KHZ at 6db/octave. The result was a high frequency range that needed to be cut back. I much prefer that over not enough because it's easier to deal with. In my room a series 1 ohm resistor did the trick but 2 ohms was better for some people that listened.

Then I found that I had to cut back on the 806A level controls for a better overall balance.
Perfection it wasn't but I enjoyed the Flamencos that way for 5 years.

When I snagged a pair of Model 19's I assumed they would be the same and I would need the tweeters. That was the case even after the 802G's went to GPA for new diaphrams and remag. Yes the xover caps were replaced too and not with soft sounding new ones.

But with the 19's I have a 12/octave xover on the T-350's and the Model 19 HF controls are set at about 1/4 rotation. The MF controls are at the lower end of the "optimal" setting range. Not ideal but I am still experimenting with different xover configurations to get it right for me.

Without the added tweeters, having the Model 19 HF controls at the end or just above the "optimal" setting range and the MF controls at mid optimal settings, I hear that garbled sound and there is little of what I would call "real highs." They are in the program source and can be heard with efficient 3 way speaker systems.

The CBS Lab report on the Model 19's shows a rather steady drop of the 802G's after 11 or 12KHZ. And that driver is supposed to have had improved highs over the 806A? So how far out does an 806A really go? Is it better than about 8db down at 13KHZ?

I have yet to see test reports that show + - figures for an 806A or 802G.
Altec claimed that the 806A and 802G's went out to 20KHZ but without the + - figures that means little to me.

My T-350's were tested about 6 years ago and they dropped quickly after 14KHZ. But is that not better than the extension of the Altec drivers and in particular the 806A's that don't have the comp circuit that the 19 xover has?

I like the higher frequencies coming from the T-350's more than I like them coming from the 806A's/802G's plus the highs are flatter out to at least 14KHZ and that does help in hearing detail that is present in the program source that would otherwise be missed or obscured without the added tweeters.

In Storms case the T-35's are 16 ohm so they are already "padded" because he is using an SS amp and the rest of the drivers are 8 ohm right?

In theory there is way too much overlap because his T-35's are crossed over at 6db/octave and the 806A's are running full out, but what if the 806A level controls aren't where they would need to be without the added tweeters and if what I say about the "automatic padding" is correct?

I think his Valencias really do sound better to him with the added tweeters.

I don't expect everyone to agree but what's wrong with liking a more extended frequency response even if it might make for some response bumps here and there that don't sound bad to the person that needs to be happy with what they hear?

OK Tom B. I know how you and at least one other person feels about the T-35 but they can be decent until you hear a T-350.
The cringe from the K-Horn T-35 can be improved by changing the front to back position of the tweeters to make them blend better.

On both my Flamencos and the 19's the tweeters sound better when they are over the magnet structures of the 806/802's so that means sitting them on top of the cabinets and all the way to the rear.

Mr. Widget

02-19-2007, 01:54 PM

I like the higher frequencies coming from the T-350's more than I like them coming from the 806A's/802G's plus the highs are flatter out to at least 14KHZ and that does help in hearing detail that is present in the program source that would otherwise be missed or obscured without the added tweeters.Zilch and I have been round and round on this one... by using network gymnastics he has been padding down the mids and highs on his two-ways much as it is done in the Model 19 and the JBL 4430/35s. With the JBL titanium drivers and even the older aluminum LE85 you can get extension out to the 20Khz region, but to the discerning listener, it still doesn't sound as good as a proper tweeter. I am speculating that the problems I hear with this are due to the raised power level required to drive the compression drivers once you’ve padded them down ~10dB or so in their midband. I think the mass break point related distortion from running them at these higher levels is simply too audible. Moving up to a Beryllium driver helps, but to my ears, they are still not quite as nice sounding up top as a dedicated tweeter. (The unobtainable JBL 475 notwithstanding.) I intend to do some tests with some TAD 2" diaphragm Be drivers when my schedule permits, but all of my experiments with TAD's 4" drivers and JBL's 3" drivers... even though they look good on paper, I haven't been entirely pleased with their UHF performance.

FWIW: The EV T-350 is a very nice tweeter... with it's phenolic diaphragm, it may not reach the upper limits of audibility, but what it does do is quite nice.

Widget

Storm

02-19-2007, 02:24 PM

In Storms case the T-35's are 16 ohm so they are already "padded" because he is using an SS amp and the rest of the drivers are 8 ohm right?

Yes, all others are 8 ohms.

Zilch - what is your opinion? Do I need to do anything to them?

Thank you for everyones opinion, it has been greatly appreciated.

-Storm.

;)

SEAWOLF97

02-19-2007, 02:38 PM

, if you would like to know what the EV tweeter mod has actually done for your speakers, we can get a pretty good idea of the affects by looking at the photos. Widget

Mr. W

do you have any theories why the EV tweet was never mentioned in the ebay auc ? Maybe a flipper that didnt realize the addition since he plagerized the text anyway ?

John

02-19-2007, 02:45 PM

I bought these because of the rare original foam and the fact I wanted them.

How do you know it is origanal???

The seller was actually very nice. We met in a parking lot to do the transaction.

I would think if he was nice he would of invited you to his home to listen to them and pay him your hard cash and help you load them up???

:blink:

:):blah:

Zilch

02-19-2007, 02:51 PM

Hi, Storm.

Until someone posts response curves for Valencias, or I get access to a pair here to measure myself, I don't much know what you're listening to.

From what little I know about VOTT and M19, however, I surmise that the "In your face" sound you like about them is rising midrange. You found M19, which are flatter and more accurate by design, too "refined." The same is likely true of the JBLs you heard at Jack's house.

There's nothing wrong with that; plenty of forum members enjoy similar sonic character in their vintage JBL systems. I rib them for their "taste" favoring inaccurate and artificial sound, is all. Everyone's taste is different. To some, mine is "dry" and "colorless." I don't disagree; it's intentionally so, and can be breathtaking in other ways.

The addition of those tweeters in your Valencias has likely extended their "forward" sound further into higher frequencies. I also understand how you might like that better than your originals. I relate this to JBL's L200B model, since your new tweeters do not add much in the way of very high frequency. They were JBL's most extreme implementation of "Quintessential Rock 'n' Roll."

I'm not about to talk you out of that, Storm, or advise you otherwise, or redesign your system according to different tastes. As Mr. Widget says, you're on a journey of audio discovery here, and it's YOUR trip.... :thmbsup:

Storm

02-19-2007, 03:05 PM

Hi, Storm.

Until someone posts response curves for Valencias, or I get access to a pair here to measure myself, I don't much know what you're listening to.

Zilch -

If I sell the 846U's to California, I am willing to drive them over. In that case, I could stop by your place so you can do the measurements and that way you can have those for future threads.

I will post the 846Us on Audiogon and eBay within a week.

Thank you for all of your help.

So, essentially from what you see here - there is nothing wrong with having tweeters?

-Storm.

:D

Mr. Widget

02-19-2007, 03:10 PM

So, essentially from what you see here - there is nothing wrong with having tweeters?Oh Storm...:banghead:

Widget

scott fitlin

02-19-2007, 03:14 PM

No theres nothing wrong with having the tweeters.

You like em, so enjoy them.

I like my steak med rare, how do you like yours? And if you like different than me, who is right? Neither!

:)

Storm

02-19-2007, 03:16 PM

I like my steak med rare, how do you like yours? And if you like different than me, who is right? Neither!

:)

Funny, that is exactly how I like my steak. Yummy.

Medium Rare, all the time.

;)

-Storm

Zilch

02-19-2007, 03:17 PM

So, essentially from what you see here - there is nothing wrong with having tweeters?No, Storm, nothing wrong.

You just enjoy them.

We're along for the ride, is all.... :D

jackgiff

02-19-2007, 03:23 PM

Storm,

If I had any idea adding a pair of EV T-35's to an Altec 846 would light your fire, I would have given you a pair of them when you were at my house. I have a pair that were built for Speakerlab and labeled as HT-3500, 8 Ohms. The pair in a set of EV cabinets in my lab are EV T-35's, 16 Ohms, to the best of my memory. You can have either pair for the freight to get them to Glendale, if you want them. I may even have the necessary non-polar electrolytics to cross them over. Let me know.

I am amazed that they add that much effect to the Valencias, because they aren't much of a tweeter at all, but if they do it for you, more power to you. Maybe you should keep the 846U's for a little longer and try several different tweeters in them. Part of the learning process is trial and error on your own.

Jack

Zilch

02-19-2007, 03:33 PM

jackgiff

02-19-2007, 03:41 PM

I'll build you a pair of crossovers to try with your tweeters, Storm. I think I have the parts here. They'll be JBL 3105 (N7000) equivalents, and may smooth the response out for you a bit.Wow Storm, You are about to get a free ride to your degree in Speakerology. Why not take the chance? What can you lose? Wish it had happened to me in my youth. Maybe you will advance the "state of the art." Or not. But it will be fun, I guarantee.

Storm

02-19-2007, 03:43 PM

Of course I will take Zilch up on his offer.

So, I can have your T-35 tweeters if all do is pay for shipping? You can use my fedex account number.

Thanks!

-Storm.

jackgiff

02-19-2007, 03:55 PM

I will disassemble the EV cab's tomorrow, and verify that the tweeters are EV T-35's at 16 ohms. Then I will PM you for your account number, and PM Zilch to give him the proper parts values, so he can build the crossovers.

This will end up being a fun venture.

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

avguytx

02-19-2007, 03:55 PM

FWIW: The EV T-350 is a very nice tweeter... with it's phenolic diaphragm, it may not reach the upper limits of audibility, but what it does do is quite nice.
Widget

I agree. It's a good sounding tweeter for what it is and from what I understand, it was an upgrade (?) over the T35? Maybe I'm wrong but that's what a friend of mine (who is an authorized EV service center) said.

I have the T350's in my Electrovoice Interface C's and I love the way they sound. I just refoamed the woofer over the weekend and have them back in rotation to break in.

Here's a "bad" picture of them. One of the kids must have my darn camera!

loach71

02-19-2007, 04:27 PM

Of course I will take Zilch up on his offer.

So, I can have your T-35 tweeters if all do is pay for shipping? You can use my fedex account number.

Thanks!

-Storm.

Looks like you are building you own hybrid version of an EV Sentry III.
Have fun!

Tom Brennan

02-19-2007, 04:36 PM

Zilch

02-19-2007, 07:02 PM

The CBS Lab report on the Model 19's shows a rather steady drop of the 802G's after 11 or 12KHZ. And that driver is supposed to have had improved highs over the 806A? So how far out does an 806A really go? Is it better than about 8db down at 13KHZ?Here's one look:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=151570#post151570

Be good if more members measured these so we knew what we were talking about here.

The best available information comes from a 1978 review?

http://www.perfectmarketaudio.com/altec/Altec%2019%20Test%20page%201.pdf

Surely there's something published on Altec FRs? :dont-know

sourceoneaudio

02-19-2007, 07:14 PM

I guese my idea here will be a good/great improvement.

Have you seen these Radian diaphragms for an upgrade, this will keep the Altec array 8ohm across the board? If I do not sell these as is I'm going to do something interesting with them.
I will re-configure the x-over, use dual L-pads and add a RF-7, K-67-KV tweet to the system. Use the Altec horns as a mid horn and put the Klipsch on top, center. Do a 12db network from top to bottom, x-over points being 800, and 3k. I think that it will turn out rather interesting sounding, and defined???
Much better than an EV tweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

Something Mr. Storm should come listen tooooooooooooo.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...TOKEN=10721370 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-724&CFID=5426915&CFTOKEN=10721370)

Zilch

02-19-2007, 07:29 PM

I guese my idea here will be a good/great improvement.Well, you can see the problem I'm having. Without some objective information (preferably quantitative) on the performance of these systems/combinations, it's all just one big subjectivist wank in the eyes of this curve junkie.

How's anyone gonna know if throwing aftermarket diaphragms into the mix is an improvement without a baseline? Because you or someone else (Storm, for example, per your suggestion?) says they like the sound better?

jackgiff

02-19-2007, 08:35 PM

Hey Zilch,

If you are willing to measure them, I can send you a pair of 806 drivers in 16 Ohms along with an 811 horn. Since they are not required to be contained in the cabinet, this should suffice to generate some sort of baseline. They will be from my original pair bought at the Altec factory in Anaheim, and have never been opened, so I know they are representative of what passes for stock today. I would like to get them back however, as they are priceless to me.

Zilch

02-19-2007, 08:49 PM

Thanks, Jack. I'm certainly willing to do that, but let's hold off a bit and see if someone has data from other sources to post here first.

We'll be in touch about the T-35s and filters in the meantime.... :thmbsup:

avguytx

02-19-2007, 08:54 PM

The T-350 is a different animal than the butt-cheek ST-350 in the Interface.

The T-350 is basically a T-35 with a much bigger magnet, ST-350 is a T-35 motor and diaphragm but with a butt-cheek horn.

EV evidently used CD horn EQ with the ST-350s, this EQ may account for the superior highs often reported.

That's right...my bad, Tom! I even know the difference but wigged out a little there. But, I am glad to have my EV's working again, though. lol

Tom Brennan

02-19-2007, 09:07 PM

Here's an 806-511 plot by RCA Guy Bill Woods

Also a 902 plot that I think I got from Shawn Fogg, not sure anymore.

sourceoneaudio

02-19-2007, 09:18 PM

Zilch,
It is an Idea I have. I'm not saying for sure they will sound better. It is an Idea for replacement for the 806A. Please don't compare me to Storm. I've been doing this longer than he is old.
Tonight I tried to get specs from Parts Express on the diaphragm replacements from Radian in my above thread and they have none. The manufacturer is stating they perform as good, if not better than factory, with an extended bandwidth. Which to me means they were designed for that horn, and driver (806 or 806A). The part number I gave you is the 294-724 sub Altec number in the catalog is they fit the (806). Anyway I'm going to use them only as a mid cut of at 3k, and bring the RF-7 tweet in at 3k. I think this is a good idea since in the above thread the factory Altec driver in the factory two way situation falls of very qwik at 9k correct?

J/S-S1A :D

Zilch

02-19-2007, 10:25 PM

The manufacturer is stating they perform as good, if not better than factory, with an extended bandwidth. Which to me means they were designed for that horn. While I find the product on the Radian website, I don't find the spec sheet. I assume you mean they were designed for that driver, not any specific horn.

That's what they say about the JBL replacements, as well, but, in the limited testing I have done with those, it's clear that they are not "equivalent" to the JBL factory diaphragms.

http://www.radianaudio.com/products/pdf/low_res/1245_1225.pdf

"Better?" I don't know. I quit when it was apparent that the crossovers would have to be retuned to successfully use them in my two-way projects....

Zilch

02-19-2007, 10:32 PM

Here's an 806-511 plot by RCA Guy Bill WoodsThank you, Tom. My assumptions regarding what Storm is listening to may be incorrect. I'm not seeing the rising midrange characterisic of early studio monitors there.

I hope more members will have curves to post for comparison, now.

Here's the CBS M19 curve blown up:

Mr. Widget

02-20-2007, 12:03 AM

Here's the CBS M19 curve blown up:I examined that curve earlier today when you posted the link... I question its accuracy. How could the on axis and front hemispheric responses be so similar deviating primarily at a few points below 2.5KHz? That just doesn't make any sense. The 811 and 511 horns are radial exponential horns that tend to narrow the high frequency dispersion as you go up in frequency. The plots as represented must be erroneous or they have a pretty unusual method for averaging a curve.

Widget

Zilch

02-20-2007, 12:16 AM

The omni-directional (4-pi?) is certainly falling off above 5 kHz.

I agree that the axial and hemispheric (2-pi?) should not be the same.

These are not 180° horns.

I'm not ready to call it "wrong," but it certainly doesn't make sense.... :dont-know

Shane Shuster

02-20-2007, 12:36 AM

I hope more members will have curves to post for comparison, now.

I have Radian diaphragms on 802-8gs. How exact of measurements do you need? I have a TacT I could use to measure them but I'm not a professional, so I don't know how scientific the results would be.

Mr. Widget

02-20-2007, 12:38 AM

I'm not ready to call it "wrong," but it certainly doesn't make sense.... :dont-knowBack in college, my physics instructor always told us to try to solve the problem in our heads and "know" the answer before plugging the numbers into our calculators. (computers were not so readily available back then:D) If you know what you're expecting you can be confident when the answer agrees with you.... if your calculation is an order of magnitude off or the phase has changed etc., then you need to rethink the problem. This plot can't be correct as stated.

Widget

Zilch

02-20-2007, 01:00 AM

I have Radian diaphragms on 802-8gs. How exact of measurements do you need? I have a TacT I could use to measure them but I'm not a professional, so I don't know how scientific the results would be.Hi, Shane.

At this point, I believe it's all of interest. I'm sure you know the parameters: on axis, 0.5 - 2m away. It's just the general response we're looking at, so it doesn't have to be "calibrated." Pics of an RTA screen'd be welcome, too. Results by different methods are valuable if only for illustrating that difference alone.

I'm certainly not a professional, either. I've been dubbed a "hack" here, in fact, but that's never kept me from trying my marginally competent best.... :thmbsup:

Ian Mackenzie

02-20-2007, 01:32 AM

Storm,

I like the look of your new Altecs:D .

Bold of you to post about them here.

May I suggest if they sound good to your ears with your equipment then that is all that matters.

Requests for useful information, maintenance or modifications are best left to an expert.

I can highly recommend Cyctotronguy (Kent at Passlabs).

Ian

sourceoneaudio

02-20-2007, 06:51 AM

Zilch,
(806 or 806A)? The part number I gave you is the 294-724 sub Altec number in the catalog is they fit the (806) I'm assuming in the catalog 806 means 806A the tech at Parts Express said that it was a direct replacement???

If I decide to go this direction do you want to measure it? I can assemble it and send it to you so you can evaluate it.

Like I said in a previous thread in the DIY section I did get the dead horn/driver working, so I will see how they sound with the factory drivers in them. These 846A's have been sitting for over twenty years so as far as what the finished project will sound like I have no idea. I also do not know what abuse the other driver went through? If the two drivers don't sound up to par then I will do the Radian swap out. Then we can arrange a test session if you like???

J/S-S1A :D

Zilch

02-20-2007, 10:28 AM

Zilch,
(806 or 806A)? The part number I gave you is the 294-724 sub Altec number in the catalog is they fit the (806) I'm assuming in the catalog 806 means 806A the tech at Parts Express said that it was a direct replacement??? Here's the Radian page listing their part, #1228, and the Altec drivers it fits: 602, 802, 806, 808, 902, MR902, 904, 908, 909. They only make one for Altec, apparently, in 8 or 16 Ohm variants:

http://www.radianaudio.com/products/diaphragms/diaphragms.php?viewT=diaphragms#radian

I don't find the pdf spec sheet for it, though. I showed the one for JBL, because I have some (albeit limited) experience with that one. It includes the response curves and interchangeability claims, which I was unable to verify with that one (#1225).

I have a lead on an 811 horn here locally. Let's see how this unfolds with respect to driver(s) and diaphragms to test with it.... :thmbsup:

Tom Brennan

02-20-2007, 12:01 PM

Here's a curve by Shawn Fogg of a light diaphragm 902 on a 511 horn. This should be somewhat indicitive of Model Nineteen performence potential.

Below that a plot Shawn made of a T-35

grumpy

02-20-2007, 12:22 PM

looks like the modeled M19 compensation is about right then... whaddya know :D?
(and my 807 + Symb. diaphragms suck... in measurement comparison). -grumpy

Zilch

02-20-2007, 12:34 PM

Thanks again, Tom. A pattern emerges, looks like.

Also, the T-35 curve compares well with the one Mr. Widget posted.

Shawn's 1/24 octave TrueRTA is KILLER! :thmbsup:

For reference, here's my sim analysis of M19 compensation, for any who might find it of related interest:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=128826&highlight=Gary#post128826

A rework of M19 with LEAP would be a worthy endeavor....

Tom Brennan

02-20-2007, 01:33 PM

A pattern emerges, looks like[/URL]

Yeah, looks like EV had good QC. Here's a sheet on the ST-350 "butt cheek" (same motor and diaphragm but different horn) which shows similar behavior and a compensation circuit for use with it.

[URL]http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/ST350B%20EDS.pdf (http://)

Zilch

02-20-2007, 01:48 PM

Storm

02-20-2007, 02:05 PM

Tom, the tweeters Jack is sending to Storm are T-35B. The T-35A has better frequency response than the T-35s Storm presently has. Any info on T-35B available?

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Horns/EDS/T35A%20EDS.pdf

Should I swap them out with what I currently have?

I love this forum and especially Jack! It is so wonderful that people like us can share and help each other out.

Thanks again Jack!

-Storm.

Zilch

02-20-2007, 02:21 PM

Should I swap them out with what I currently have?Let's see what we can find out about them, Storm. Jack may have a data sheet, or someone will find info online.

I could also measure them with the crossovers and horns, maybe....

Tom Brennan

02-20-2007, 04:32 PM

Zilch----I have data sheets on the T-35 As and Bs around somewhere but it's been two moves since I've seen them, I'll dig around. The difference is the magnet, the A has a bigger one than the B and then the T-350 a much bigger one yet. I presume the Wolverine T-35W had the smallest magnet of them all. And then the ST-350 butt-cheek. That's 5 tweeters from one diaphragm. Clever guys in Michigan.

I've used both A&B T-35s and never heard much of a difference, if any. That's just me though, I hesitate to make a strong claim one way or the other.

Nightbrace

02-20-2007, 06:05 PM

Nightbrace

02-20-2007, 06:20 PM

Storm, I am sorry for being so critical of these speakers as I can tell you are enjoying them immensely. The reason why I am so skeptical is that its extremely difficult to improve upon the stock design, and in order to improve upon something as great as your Valencias you can't just swap something in and hope for the best, it needs to be extremely well thought out.. And based on the auction, and the feeble networks created to adapt these EV's into the system, it just doesn't compute why these are so much better. After reading through this thread and examining the T-35's response, if anything, they should sound less neutral, and more inflated in the region where Altec tends to have some issues.

I am anxious to know if indeed this person knew what he was doing with the addition of these tweeters as its always possible that someone stumbled upon something special, whether it was well thought out or not :). A lot of great discoveries happen by pure chance, and hopefully this will be one of them :D .

JBLRaiser

02-20-2007, 08:10 PM

Robh3606

02-20-2007, 08:41 PM

I am still totally confused as to why these sound so much better.. Being a lover of both EV and Altec, I should be the first to embrace these, but can only see harm with the addition of these tweeters. Adding something like my 2405H's would do wonders as the Altec horns lack UHF's. but these T-35's do little more than bump up frequencies already well presented by the Altec's.. which may be what Storm likes about them, but it may confuse others with similair speakers as to what the real differences should be...

The on axis response is only part of it. The directivity between the two horns will be quite different with the T-35 holding a wider dispersion pattern 5k and up. Off axis you would get a bit more upper treble around the room. May be enough to change the in room balance and brighten things up a bit even though the altec horn looks better in the on axis measurement.

Rob:)

moldyoldy

02-20-2007, 09:28 PM

I've been wondering what considerations, if any, were given in the completed versions to phase interaction of the new tweets, either from a mounting or an XO POV?

One of Altec's old rules stated 'when a 511/811 horn flange shares a common baffle (plane) with a LF driver (as in the Vals) the HF should be cabinet-wired (at driver terminals) out of phase to correct the acoustic phase misalignment at XO caused by the signifigant voice coil offset. (How many of these used systems are actually properly phased now is a crapshoot, however, phase-flipping while replacing diaphragms happens a lot.)

It may be too late for this to be meaningful to the modded-and-gone example, but if a guy wasn't pinned down to an XO point yet....

As for 1" Altecs, they share the same rolloff as any 1" driver, only varying by diaphragm and Bl differences. Considering the long list of diaphragm part numbers Altec produced in 40+ years dwarfs the short list of drivers they fit, correctly infers the occurrence of wide variances, which may be an excuse for the glaring lack of published data. While there are claimed to be certain "magic" 'frams and definitely were some duds, again, there's no backup for specific claims, and they're all decades old/unpredictable now anyway. Uniformity finally settled in with the long-running current 'frams.

Altec marketing used the prose-du-jour, but NEVER claimed flat response to 20kHz with a 1" driver . ;)

Zilch

02-20-2007, 11:08 PM

Thank you, Moldy. From what's been posted here already, it's clear that there's no rational "One diaphragm fits all" approach. The Radian diaphragm, for example, may fit all of those many drivers mechanically, but the performance cannot possibly be equivalent to the variety of Altec originals. Maybe it's better than some of them, or most, even, but I'd suspect GPA has a substantially more informed handle on this aspect of refurbing and upgrading Altecs. That seems to be where concerned collectors go to get it "right."

On the other hand, if I were doing a comprehensive upgrade of an Altec system, including redesign of the crossover, or an active approach, I might be looking real hard at trying to incorporate a modern "standardized" diaphragm that worked for my design objectives, irrespective of what Altec originally used. That's not something can be done by "ear," though, in my experience, and certainly not by random substitution.

I've been wondering what considerations, if any, were given in the completed versions to phase interaction of the new tweets, either from a mounting or an XO POV?In this case, I'd suggest "None" is a reasonable assumption. The choice and installation appears to be largely based upon convenience. I doubt there are many other tweeters that would integrate into the available space. I'm reminded of the one in which a cute little sectoral supertweeter is mounted between the vanes of the horn.

I'm trying not to overthink this, though. If it were JBL, and all I wanted to do was add some "sizzle," I'd stick on a 2405 and a 1 uF cap, choose the phase by ear, and be done with it.

However, if what is required is conversion to a true three-way, that calls for a more considered approach. It may be possible to take advantage of a precipitous rolloff, as Source suggests, but there's also the dispersion and phasing elements you and Rob have mentioned to be evaluated. That's all going to require measurements....

sourceoneaudio

02-21-2007, 07:26 AM

Glad to know there is a fellow proud Altec owner in Phoenix.

I told you there was a difference in the sound - couldn't you hear it?

;)

-Storm.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14754

One thing I would like to add here. The difference comes from inputing part of the bandwidth that is missing on the 806A driver. This addition comes from reading and taking information in the above post. (link is present below) The driver I added is being used as a UHF driver because of the dramatic fall off the stock Altec driver has. I your case if/what you think is a great improvement, and looking at the 6db network installed on your array I think most of what your hearing is an overlap/spike.

I am still totally confused as to why these sound so much better.. Being a lover of both EV and Altec, I should be the first to embrace these, but can only see harm with the addition of these tweeters. Adding something like my 2405H's would do wonders as the Altec horns lack UHF's. but these T-35's do little more than bump up frequencies already well presented by the Altec's.. which may be what Storm likes about them, but it may confuse others with similair speakers as to what the real differences should be...

This is what nightbrace is trying to explain here. I think a better driver and a better x-over network design would yield you results that are true to the human ear, and fill in what is missing. When I get mine totally done I want you to come over for a listen OK? Then you can see and understand what we are talking about.

J/S-S1A :D

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14731

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 08:30 AM

maybe he is not going for traditional "Hi-Fi" sound....

My xover has deliberately designed overlap from 802Gs to 075s.... (the bullets come in at @ 7KHz, Altecs roll off naturally)

I like the "sparkle" that the arrangement provides....

to each their own...
:)

Zilch

02-21-2007, 12:35 PM

My xover has deliberately designed overlap from 802Gs to 075s.... (the bullets come in at @ 7KHz, Altecs roll off naturally)Post your crossover details, please....

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 01:02 PM

Post your crossover details, please....

Its a Richard Long and Associates RLA X2000 electronic crossover....

18db butterworth filters

100Hz & below to subs;
20Hz - 800Hz to 515B;
800Hz - 20KHz to 802G;
7KHz & above to JBL 075

looks like this one...
http://www.deepattitude.com/images/79_3.JPG

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 01:05 PM

and a pic of the rear...

is here
http://www.wavemusic.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=425&d=1126022482

def. not you dad's hi-fi

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 01:11 PM

I was just looking more closely at the photos of Storm's new speakers.....

I hope the previous owner did not cut up original foam inserts to add the tweeter..... :banghead:

Storm

02-21-2007, 01:14 PM

Yes, they cut them to fit around the tweeter.

Does not bother me. I will never remove the tweeter anyways.

;)

-Storm.

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 01:27 PM

Storm

02-21-2007, 01:49 PM

although the likelyhood of that seems slim (most of the foam surrounds for the Altec sectoral horns seems to have crumbled long ago)

I wonder if Sonofagun could make replacements?...

Just a thought.

-Storm.

scott fitlin

02-21-2007, 01:53 PM

I wonder if Sonofagun could make replacements?...

Just a thought.

-Storm.Worth a shot! Try to find out.

louped garouv

02-21-2007, 01:54 PM

if he dosen't still make them there are a few others at least....
I think he was looking for $125/pair (shipping included) last I saw, but that was a while ago

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9592

Nightbrace

02-21-2007, 08:37 PM

This is what nightbrace is trying to explain here. I think a better driver and a better x-over network design would yield you results that are true to the human ear, and fill in what is missing. When I get mine totally done I want you to come over for a listen OK? Then you can see and understand what we are talking about.

J/S-S1A :D

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14731

At least someone seems to understand what I'm trying to say :). Up to ~ 9 kHz, the Altec horns need little help. And there's no truth in him saying that the vocals are distorted on the Altecs and crystal clear with the addition of the EV T-35's. These EV tweeters actually have a similiar response as the Altec horns, and maybe fill in part of the gap, but its at the expense of adding coloration to an already colored speaker; completely changing the sonic character of that speaker. Adding something much higher without ruining the integrity of the speakers midrange response is whats needed if one was wanting to "upgrade" these speakers successfully. At this point its merely speculating as to what these EV's are doing that make them sound so much better, but there has been no talk as about how the addition of these tweeters is "altering" the unique sonic character of the Altec horn rather than supplementing it, which is all its really doing. As to "why" Storm likes this speaker better, its totally subjective, and there's no difinitive reason that anyone can give him except his own ears. There are ways to make them sound "better" by coming up with a better network to incorporate the EV tweeter, but this may or may not be "in-line" with what Storm's preferences are and it may do more harm than good by changing something that he already enjoys. Who knows, the person he bought these speakers from could have had the exact same preferences and built these speakers just for Storm without even knowing it.

Starting off a set of tweeters at or around 9 kHz, would do a lot to add to the overall presentation of the speaker without removing the sonic character that makes them Altec. Even then the differences would only be audible when playing really high quality material (certainly not the material he is auditioning) and its only the crispness and brilliance of the sound that would be perceived as being different and I think that overall they would sound pretty similiar either way.

I propose using a 077 or 2405H with the addition of something similiar to whats used in my S21's to add to the current networks. Starting them off at 8.5 kHz acutually looks about right. When I get the chance I'll run my 2405H tweeters alongside my Altec 19's to see how well they blend together. I imagine that they would work quite nicely. The highs would be added on-axis without the worry of interaction or ruining the sonic character of the Altec horn.

These speakers may have opened his eyes to the fact that there are other speakers out there besides Altec that are good, EV being one of them.. Trust me when I say that if there was truly a way to get my Altec's to play better I would be the first to try it, they have remained stock for a reason, as I'm 100% happy the way they are. When I am concerned with having GREAT UHF"s, I got my JBL's if I need 'em, but no JBL living or dead can make bass like my Altec 19's, nor can they duplicate the unique sonic character of the Altec horn.

It would be a shame to overshadow or add to that sound with anything else. If you don't like it that's fine, there are other speakers you may enjoy more, but saying that these speakers are now suddenly better with these EV's is preposterous. They are no longer Altec's in my eyes, and have a combination of two drivers playing at once with some info from one and some from the other. Like playing two different speakers at once.

Zilch

02-21-2007, 09:27 PM

At least someone seems to understand what I'm trying to say :). Up to 10 kHz, the Altec horns need little help, frequencies over 10 kHz is where the horns start to fall off.There's apparently a 10 dB drop from 1 kHz to 10 kHz, and they need plenty of help in that range.

Not leaping to conclusions just yet, but from the information presented thus far, they rather suck.

If you dial the horn balanced with the woofer, they're sonically "dull." If you push it up for highs, you induce a huge midrange hump.

M19 mitigates this somewhat via network filter compensation, but still crashes in the UHF.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12305

Nightbrace

02-21-2007, 09:33 PM

Wonder if those plots take into consideration the M19? I only notice fall-off with really high frequencies on my 19's. Maybe this is why using the right tube amp is SO crucial as to smooth out the midrange "hump" your talking about. I'll be the first to admit that with the wrong gear these will make your ears bleed.

avguytx

02-21-2007, 09:34 PM

I still hope it wasn't the "original" foam in good condition.......

although the likelyhood of that seems slim (most of the foam surrounds for the Altec sectoral horns seems to have crumbled long ago)

BTW -- I like people that speak in absolutes..... ;)

Mine are still original...just the foam grills are long gone. I do have the original frames that were covered with black grill cloth, though.

Zilch

02-21-2007, 09:43 PM

I got my JBL's if I need 'em, but no JBL living or dead can make bass like my Altec 19's, nor can they duplicate the unique sonic character of the Altec horn.Thankfully, perhaps.... :p

Wonder if those plots take into consideration the M19? I only notice fall-off with really high frequencies on my 19's. Maybe this is why using the right tube amp is SO crucial as to smooth out the midrange "hump" your talking about. I'll be the first to admit that with the wrong gear these will make your ears bleed.Two plots relating to M19 have been presented so far here, and I previously posted a comprehensive simulation showing how that crossover functions. The factory curves were also posted by Dylanl in the linked thread:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=137873#post137873

I consider it a recipe for madness trying to "fix" speakers via amp selection. At best, that's an imprecise band-aid that can never solve the problem....

Mr. Widget

02-21-2007, 09:52 PM

I'll be the first to admit that with the wrong gear these will make your ears bleed.My experience has been that there is a lot of wrong gear then. :D

Widget

Nightbrace

02-21-2007, 09:53 PM

I consider it a recipe for madness trying to "fix" speakers via amp selection. At best, that's a bandaid that can never solve the problen....

As do I :), probably why the "better" amps I tried sounded downright awful on them.

Nightbrace

02-21-2007, 10:00 PM

Two plots relating to M19 have been presented so far, and I did a comprehensive simulation of what the crossover does.

Is there anything that can be done to "help" the crossovers? From what I gather by taking away too much they are too boring, and by adding too much they'll be overbearing.. There has to be a middle ground that'll make them work.. Unless the only way is the way I've found by using a certain tube amp to power them. Is this why many people EQ Altec? To compensate for what they are lacking? Ironically the same output tubes (7591) sound downright awful on JBL when compared to a true Class A amp.

Storm

02-21-2007, 11:43 PM

I still can't believe that you guys doubt me when I say they are now listenable without getting fatigued, compared to stock 846's.

If you dont have a pair to compare them to, stop arguing.

Thanks.

-Storm.

Shane Shuster

02-21-2007, 11:58 PM

I measured my 802-8gs on a 511b with Radian diaphragms. I measured from 18" on axis and also at 45deg. I used my Tact which has a calibrated mic. The results are amateurish but maybe Zilch will get a kick out of them.

First one is on axis, the second one is 45 off to the side.

Zilch

02-22-2007, 12:33 AM

Thanks, Shane.

45° is kinda extreme, but there's certainly nobody home out there in VHF on the second one.

I can't figure the horizontal scale very well. At what frequency is that cliff in the HF in your first plot? 7 kHz, maybe?

Is the driver running on any kind of filter in these plots?

If not, it looks like that one could be compensated, assuming, and this is a BIG assumption, the horn would support it.

How do you normally play these? In what system?

Zilch

02-22-2007, 01:02 AM

I still can't believe that you guys doubt me....Make that singular, Storm.... ;)

Shane Shuster

02-22-2007, 01:04 AM

Thanks, Shane.

45° is kinda extreme, but there's certainly nobody home in VHF out there.

I can't figure the horizontal scale very well. At what frequency is that cliff in the HF in your first plot? 7 kHz, maybe?

Is the driver running on any kind of filter?

If not, it looks like that one could be compensated, assuming, and that is a BIG assumption, the horn would support it....

5.5 khz is where it starts to drop, 7khz is where it stays and slowly drops a couple of db until 12k where it falls off again. (0db at 5.7k -9.1db at 20k)

I took a 45deg one because I can still hear to 20k and thats one of the things that bothered me about the Altecs. I would move my head a little and the treble would change or if I was moving around and still wanted to listen to music they didn't have much treble.

As for a filter its just a Solen cap (27uf) with nothing else.

I used to force re-voice my Altecs with the Tact. They will take eq but its not without compromise.

Sorry about the blurry screen caps but my monitor is big and I had to resize them down quite a bit.

Shane Shuster

02-22-2007, 01:07 AM

How do you normally play these? In what system?

Currently I play them in a cardboard box, in storage.:)

Zilch

02-22-2007, 01:34 AM

I used to force re-voice my Altecs with the Tact. They will take eq but its not without compromise.How's that? Sound nasty when you try to EQ them flat? Beam at HF?

These are important factors when considering whether to use compensation as in M19 and augment, or convert to true three-way, in my experience. Compensation works in JBL's 4430, but it graciously desists ~16 kHz. I was informed today there's a different Altec crossover with compensation to evaluate, also.

With the JBL exponential/lens combination, if I boost the VHF, it plays to a progressively narrowing horizontal slit. A major advantage of adding a UHF driver like 2405 is to restore vertical beamwidth (albeit briefly, as the slot itself beams vertically.)

Give us a bit of context here, please. What is Tact?

Shane Shuster

02-22-2007, 02:57 AM

Sound nasty when you try to EQ them flat? Beam at HF?

Nope. It was a night and day difference. I did not run my Altecs without it. Sounds much flatter. Gets rid of the "horn ringing" most guys try to get rid of by using putty but which is actually the somewhat ragged frequency response. When you turn them up the electric guitars don't blare notes as much. (ie, stock at moderate volumes it sounds like a 5 string, 10db louder it sounds like a 4 string, ect) Obviously it doesn't fix the dispersion pattern and you do loose the ability to play really, really loud because you are boosting and cutting with the EQ. Also it added a very low level of high frequency hiss which I personally can't stand. If you can't hear all the way up or are a normal, well adjusted person you would never notice it. I would say it's not 100% transparent. Even with the EQ set to bypass you can tell something was added to the chain.

I should point out that I had DIY Altecs. I made the box (5cu ft) the same width as the 511bs but made it taller and less deep so the center of the horn was at ear level when seated. I braced it good, but not Widget good. The woofer was as high in the cabinet as I could get it, without weakening the box, so that it was closer to the horn. I had the front of the horn secured and also the back with a bracket I made. I placed the horn according to the literature in the Altec library on this sight for time alignment and used a 2nd order 500hz crossover.

Give us a bit of context here, please. What is Tact?

Its like a DEQX but its less geared towards pro tweak ability and more for consumer use. You take a mic measurement, draw in what curve you want and it makes a filter. It does frequency and time alignment. Its all digital and can be used as a preamp also. It works great for what it does. Some speakers (like maggies) it did not work well on. Altecs it worked great on because they had headroom to take the EQ.

I found out, however, that I am not the kind of person who can have an eq in their system because I get it set perfectly. Then a week goes by and I listen again. It's not right! Tweek tweek tweek. It's perfect.