Look at my new babies...Altec 846Bs w/EV Tweeters!

[Zilch]

What about for 846a- 16 ohms. Is there a board of parts and schematic yet?O.K., here's the deal on the 16-Ohm 846A:

Jack has made a PC board, and the circuit is simple, and tested at this point. However, it does not address the 19 kHz spike well, so I've deleted that part. Since doing that one, I have done three additional iterations for other systems and learned better how to do this.

Jack is getting set up to do measurements, and wants to measure the performance of the present circuit in his system. He's also likely to use the BMS in his third system, and if so, I have asked for an opportunity to work with those new drivers and finalize the design for 846A.

If you're going to do BMS, PM me, and we'll work a way to do it with your 16-Ohm drivers as well.

The compensation filter he's presently using appears below, which I tested with your N-800-F:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=160329#post160329

Jack has built new crossovers with a 1.2 kHz frequency, which appear to work with this compensation filter as well. That's one reason he wants to do measurements first.

This filter will work with BMS drivers in 846A. I'm saying there may be a better version available soon.... :thmbsup:

[SMKSoundPro]

10-4.

message rec'd.

standing by for advice.

Thank you!

scott.

[johnaec]

I was able to listen to a couple examples of the BMS drivers with the 811 and 511 horns over at Zilch's yesterday. A definite improvement from the last time, when he was still tweaking the Altec drivers. I also thought the 511 sounded better than the 811 with the same driver, even though both were crossed over the same, somewhere above 800hz. The 511 just seemed to sound a little more open.

That said, Zilch also had the horn from the 4348 hooked up to a JBL driver, (2435 or 2452? I can't remember...). As expected, this combination really shines! Zilch has some interesting plans ahead for these!

A side comment - I was over there to get some CLIO curves run on the 2447/2381 HF combos from the SP215-9's I recently purchased. Since that cabinet was last produced in 2002, the drivers had to be at least 5 years old, still with the original diaphragms. We compared them with a brand new 2447/2381 combo, and both older drivers measured within 1 to 2 dB of the new driver, (the used ones actually had a little smoother curve), and the really amazing thing - both older drivers measured on average within .5 dB of each other! If that's not a testament to JBL quality, I don't know what is!

John

[jackgiff]

Zilch, these pix are of a Trusonic 80CX coax which is convenient for testing/learning purposes. Do the responses look like something to be expected from a speaker of any kind?

Thanks, Jack

[Steve Schell]

Jack, if those divisions are 15dB then the response may be a bit like a ride on the Cyclone Racer, but many of the strange old speakers I've got measure worse than that in their raw response. At least the overall response is gently downsloping instead of having some killer upper mid /treble peaks.

A friend recently gave me a printout of an article by Nelson Pass, "Current Source Amps and Sensitive / Full-Range Drivers." You are dealing with a coaxial, but there may still be something useful here. On the passdiy.com site there is also his newer article, "Current Source Crossover Filters."

I have experienced dramatic bass improvements with amps having high output impedance... the phenomenon is real, like taking one's hand off the cone. Perhaps one of his filter suggestions could help level out the midband as well.

http://www.passdiy.com/articles.htm

[Zilch]

Hi, Jack.

Well, it's certainly rolled off above 12 kHz. I've sent you a PM with detailed comments. I'm ignoring everything below 630 Hz as contaminated with room effects for now, but if the rest of it above there is accurate, it looks like a '60s speaker with "issues."

I look at your curves and my fingers are itching to twiddle knobs and push buttons on your new RTA to figure out what's up.... :p

[jackgiff]

I have been playing with my RTA most of the afternoon, and moved on to a couple of Valencias which were out in the garage. These are not the BMS drivered versions yet, because I wanted to get some experience using the RTA. By the way, it is a BLAST!!!

The first picture is the FR of an 846A which has an Eminence APT-80 Supertweeter mounted in the horn. The connection for the woofer/806A phasing is as Altec shows it on the wiring diagram on the back of the Valencia. This tweet is coupled through a 4 Microfarad cap, and the 806A is allowed to go as high as it can. The tweeter then just comes into the picture slowly and adds to the decaying response of the 806A. As can be seen by the dip at about 1200 Hz, the 806A should be hooked backwards, so that it doesn't subtract from the woofer during the crossover overlap.

The second picture is the FR after the 806A connections are reversed. Much nicer. The HF was also reduced before this pic was taken.

The third pic was after the HF was adjusted to normal listening levels by ear, not by watching the RTA. I tried to better the FR by using the RTA, but it seemed to be a tossup.

I haven't listened to this Val much yet, but will spend some time with it tomorrow. The listening will surely be better after using the RTA to get the phase corrected between the woofer and 806A.

Jack Gifford :D

[Zilch]

Tweeter's not running in the second pic, right?

I'm certainly interested to see how your stock Vals measure without HF augmentation, of course.

At 1.2 kHz, the phase looks "corrected" there, yes. :thmbsup:

[jackgiff]

These pics show the FR of a Val with an APT-80 supertweeter mounted in the horn, and crossed over from the 806A at 3500 Hz. Again, I haven't spent a lot of time listening to this Val, but will tomorrow.

The first pic is the FR of the unit as wired according to Altec's wiring diagram, and as it was wired for the comparo. Again the big dip in response at about 1200 Hz is due to the 806A subtracting from the woofer output during the crossover period. It is hooked backwards.

The second pic shows the FR after reversing the leads of the 806A.

It seemed like the notch at roughly 2 KHz was also gone, but I tried reversing the leads of the tweet just to check it out. Sure enough the big dip came back, so the tweeter leads were put back to the same phase as before. The ultimate response of this Val is shown in the second pic.

The RTA is going to keep me busy for week or six learning what it can do. But it sure looks like FUN!

Jack Gifford :applaud::applaud:

[jackgiff]

Tweeter's not running in the second pic, right?

At 1.2 kHz, the phase looks "corrected" there, yes. :thmbsup:

Yes, the LPad for the tweeter was turned way down, essentially taking it out of the circuit. The drop off of the 806A is pretty apparent in that pic isn't it?

Jack Gifford

I will get the stock Vals in the next day or so, as well as the BMS guys. This is going to improve my photography as well. Come over and help me tweak knobs. That will shorten my learning curve.

[Zilch]

Yes, the LPad for the tweeter was turned way down, essentially taking it out of the circuit. The drop off of the 806A is pretty apparent in that pic isn't it?I'd say you're confirming the ZilchLab findings with respect to Val response in actual use, yes. I didn't have real Vals to work with here, just the horns and drivers.

*****

It certainly appears that crossing in the tweeter at 3.5 kHz is too low, creating a 5 dB "hump" at 4 kHz.

Thus far, just the 4uF would appear to be a better solution, at least insofar as frequency response is concerned. It's probably making a bunch of phase-interference combing as the two HF drivers interact in the overlap region, tho. Finding the optimum frequency to do a "real" crossover would be a better approach, as you've previously stated.

Having measurement capabilities is pretty much essential for doing this stuff, in my experience. :yes:


More data ... less wank....

[jackgiff]

I'd say you're confirming the ZilchLab findings with respect to Val response in actual use, yes. I didn't have real Vals to work with here, just the horns and drivers.

*****

It certainly appears that crossing in the tweeter at 3.5 kHz is too low, creating a 5 dB "hump" at 4 kHz.

Thus far, just the 4uF would appear to be a better solution, at least insofar as frequency response is concerned. It's probably making a bunch of phase-interference combing as the two HF drivers interact in the overlap region, tho. Finding the optimum frequency to do a "real" crossover would be a better approach, as you've previously stated.

Having measurement capabilities is pretty much essential for doing this stuff, in my experience. :yes:


More data ... less wank....


Zilch, sometimes a good wank is OK. Better than no wank at all. :D

The parts for a 5 KHz crossover will be here on Friday, and it may do a much nicer job. I feel that any higher, and the 806A is getting in pretty treacherous territory. But then, what do I know?

And messing with the value of the 4 Microfarad cap can move the point where the tweet comes in. That will get played with a little bit in the next few days.

Having the capability to actually measure the response is BITCHIN'! Wish I had done that much, much sooner. And when I finally get to the time delay capabilities of the DEQX, what will be in store at that point? WOW

One other thing to remember is that my Vals have the fretwork grilles, which can interfere with the HF a bit. I have a large piece I could send you to cover the front of your horns for trial purposes. But then again, we are almost done with the Vals, yes?

Thanks, Jack Gifford :applaud:

[Zilch]

One other thing to remember is that my Vals have the fretwork grilles, which can interfere with the HF a bit. I have a large piece I could send you to cover the front of your horns for trial purposes. But then again, we are almost done with the Vals, yes?I think some high-resolution measurements with the grilles would answer the questions about their influence, so send the piece up here, and I'll study it a bit. :thmbsup:

With respect to being done, there's just a few measurements more I have yet to complete. My goal is to pack everyone's drivers up and return them yet this week. More work to do with tweeters, especially, and I still have to check out the "light" diaphragm Gary sent.

I'd say we're not gonna be done with the Vals 'til the Comparo is repeated with the several approaches optimized. However, the fundamental result seems conclusive at this point -- they need and warrant upgrade. :yes:

[Gary L]

With respect to being done, there's just a few measurements more I have yet to complete. My goal is to pack everyone's drivers up and return them yet this week. More work to do with tweeters, especially, and I still have to check out the "light" diaphragm Gary sent.



Play away Zilch! I have at least a solid month before I am ready to mount those 802s on any thing.

I am just sitting back at this point watching you guys tweek the daylights out of these things and hoping you come up with some directions for us die hard Altec fans who simply must maintain the traditional drivers.

I have not yet ordered a pair of BMS's but will admit I am learning to appreciate the Eminence PSD 2002s in current use. So far I can't find a thing not to like about them. After extensive yet unscientific A+B testing along side of the 802-8Gs I can honestly hear more content from the 2002s and they appear to be much cleaner when the HF spikes to high levels.

Gary

[Zilch]

Having the capability to actually measure the response is BITCHIN'! Wish I had done that much, much sooner. And when I finally get to the time delay capabilities of the DEQX, what will be in store at that point? WOWEverybody's gonna scoff, but there's an inexpensive analog active crossover available that has adjustable delay on the LF. You can tweak the "delay" knob and watch the time-alignment notch disappear on the RTA. I may dig in there and figure out how it's done for DIY. Perhaps Ian or someone knows already.

Swipe mouse here for the product ID -----> Behringer Super-X Pro CX3400, <$130 at Guitar Center and similar.

[jackgiff]

I pulled the pair of stock Vals from their bedroom space, and measured their FR's in the garage, where the photography of the RTA works a lot better. Again, the 806A's appear to be connected incorrectly, even though Altec's directions on the back of the cabinet says to hook them that way. The first pic is of the left one stock, the second pic is the left one with reversed 806A connection. The next pair is for the right speaker, same stock, reversed connections.

The right speakers FR actually looks better to me with the connections hooked as Altec says. Maybe their engineers knew the weaknesses of the system. The left speaker could be a tossup.

Tomorrow I will check the BMS drivered Vals, and post their pix. I wonder if the drop in response at about 400 HZ could be part of the early rolloff of the woofer due to the unbalanced N800F crossover. It looked like the woofer was to be crossed at 800 HZ according to their cap values, but the 806A was not brought in til 1200 HZ or so. Both of the sets of Vals which I have posted pix of FR still have the Altec N800F xovers. The set of BMS guys have my 1200 HZ xovers, so that may point either to some more weaknesses or some more patches to cover them.

At any rate, the dropoff of the HF is really apparent, no matter which way the 806A is connected, and really starts going south at around 8 KHz. How can they still sound so good????

Jack Gifford :)

[grumpy]

I wonder if the drop in response at about 400 HZ could be...

...a floor reflection. (cancellation at mic position) ? -grumpy

[Zilch]

...a floor reflection. (cancellation at mic position) ? -grumpyYup, very possibly. Put some fiberglass insulation face up on the floor midway between the speaker and the mic, or a bulky folded comforter, Jack, and see if that doesn't change the response measurement down there.

The dip at 2.5 kHz is also troublesome, but it looks like 8 kHz would not be a bad point to kick in the tweeters on that pair.

Back in the '60s, 7 kHz was considered adequate HF response, the rationale being that no instrument produces musical notes higher than that.

They ignored overtones and percussion, obviously. ;)

Pics are lookin' good, BTW.... :thmbsup:

[jackgiff]

...a floor reflection. (cancellation at mic position) ? -grumpy

Thanks, grumpy. That is something I hadn't thought of, though I knew it could happen. Next time I will try elevating the speaker, and/or laying carpet between the speaker and mic. Another piece of my education.

Jack Gifford :D

[sourceoneaudio]

So looking at the RTA and seeing the response is better with the polarity switched from stock application, back in color phasing. Does this mean that the time alignment parameters for this speaker are incorrect?


J/S-S1A :D

[Zilch]

It's hard to know. Certainly, there are time alignment issues associated with the compression driver being located further back than the woofer, and correcting them with driver phase works optimally at only one vertical angle. Jack's measuring on horn axis, I believe. Above or below that, the interference will progressively recur, and the stock polarity may well be optimum at a different height and distance. Delaying the woofer is a better approach, with both drivers connected in phase.

Altec engineering likely chose the polarity on the basis of listening from more normal positioning, i.e., what sounded best from there, and they probably weren't thinking "time alignment." Jack's also using better measurement instrumentation than they had available back then. I wouldn't be surprised if that part of the picture didn't change somewhat with mid- and farfield measurements, when he gets to that....

[sourceoneaudio]

I have in front of me that posting from the site that has all three phasing time alignment issues that Altec covered with in board flange, out board flange, and voice coil in plane time alignment.
With the Valencia being an in board/mounting flange in plane array they do show it out of phase for correct time alignment. So being test equipment was not up to today's specs we can also pick out errors made in the past. ? It is obvious there is another issue at hand. Correct Zilch?

J/S-S1A :D

[jackgiff]

So looking at the RTA and seeing the response is better with the polarity switched from stock application, back in color phasing. Does this mean that the time alignment parameters for this speaker are in correct?


J/S-S1A :D

Hi Jeff,

The units which have the added tweeters certainly gained from having the 806A connections reversed, regardless whether the tweeter was simply high passed, or fully crossed. The units without tweeters are pretty much a "pays your money, takes your chances" kind of thing. As Zilch mentions, there is the issue of time alignment, which is still in my future.

It seems like the idea of high passing the added tweeters at 8.5 KHz, and bringing them in at 18 db per octave was a fine choice on your part when you added the Klipsch tweets to Tom's Vals. I was looking at the raw 806A data published earlier when I told you "Too high, too fast", but the stock pair here indicates that would be a fine choice. My congratulations for hitting things so spot on.

I would think that since you have added tweeters at 8.5 KHz, and not done anything to the 806A, that the stock connection is probably going to be just as good as reversing them. But it is so simple to try, that it might be worthwhile to do. Can't hurt to know for sure.

Jack Gifford :)

[sourceoneaudio]

Hi Jeff,

The units which have the added tweeters certainly gained from having the 806A connections reversed, regardless whether the tweeter was simply high passed, or fully crossed. The units without tweeters are pretty much a "pays your money, takes your chances" kind of thing. As Zilch mentions, there is the issue of time alignment, which is still in my future.

It seems like the idea of high passing the added tweeters at 8.5 KHz, and bringing them in at 18 db per octave was a fine choice on your part when you added the Klipsch tweets to Tom's Vals. I was looking at the raw 806A data published earlier when I told you "Too high, too fast", but the stock pair here indicates that would be a fine choice. My congratulations for hitting things so spot on.

I would think that since you have added tweeters at 8.5 KHz, and not done anything to the 806A, that the stock connection is probably going to be just as good as reversing them. But it is so simple to try, that it might be worthwhile to do. Can't hurt to know for sure.

Jack Gifford :)

Thank you Jack for the compliment. You and Zilch's efforts into this project deserve tons of :applaud::applaud: A+++. It just proves how well we all can work together.

Back to the Tweeters. It is also a plus that we added that L-pad on the Klipsch K-67's. Now that you have the RTA we should give it another go and get together for another listening session as previously stated. We just have to get a time figured out. :bouncy:

J/S-S1A :blink:

[jackgiff]

Thank you Jack for the compliment. You and Zilch's efforts into this project also deserve tons of :applaud::applaud: A+++. It just proves how well we all can work together.

Back to the Tweeters. It is also a plus that we added that L-pad on the Klipsch K-67's. Now that you have the RTA we should give it another go and get together for another listening session as previously stated. We just have to get a time figured out. :bouncy:

J/S-S1A :blink:

I will need at least another week, since I am in the midst of a large landscaping project at this time. With the RTA, we can measure the response in the house, and adjust everything for similar conditions/tuning, so we can eliminate any biases about one unit being tuned differently than another. The next comparo should start to separate the men from the boys. Is everyone game for another go? This one should be much more fair, since we can compare responses with the RTA as well as the ears.

More FUN???? More beer???? Not for Storm, though.

Jack Gifford :cheers:

[Zilch]

With the Valencia being an in board/mounting flange in plane array they do show it out of phase for correct time alignment. So being test equipment was not up to today's specs we can also pick out errors made in the past. ? It is obvious there is another issue at hand. Correct Zilch?At this point, I don't know where the flange is. :p

Again, the final determination was likely an empirical one, from listening tests. There are also phase changes occuring in the crossover itself, baffle step, and other variables and considerations, very likely, such as vertical spacing between drivers, which alter the final result.

For measurement purposes, we each balance the compromises and apply a consistent method for comparable findings according to a particular objective. In this case, it's frequency response which is of primary interest, and while those other factors are certainly in play, they are secondary in the context of determining the fundamental behavior of the several alternative design approaches under evaluation here.

They've all got the same compression driver displacement issue. Given that, and its known and measureable effects, which approach produces the best quantitative result? With that knowledge, we can make rational adjustments toward achieving the optimum qualitative result, and among those may be reversing the phase of the compression driver.... :yes:

[jackgiff]

At this point, I don't know where the flange is. :p

Again, the final determination was likely and empiricaly one. There are also phase changes occuring in the crossover itself, baffle step, and other variables and considerations, very likely, which alter the final result.

For measurement purposes, we each balance the compromises and apply a consistent method for comparable findings according to a particular objective. In this case, it's frequency response which is of primary interest, and while those other factors are certainly in play, they are secondary in the context of determining the fundamental behavior of the several alternative design approaches under evaluation here.

They've all got the same compression driver displacement issue. Given that, and its known and measureable effects, which approach produces the best quantitative result? With that knowledge, we can make rational adjustments toward achieving the optimum qualitative result, and among those may be reversing the phase of the compression driver.... :yes:


And can we also drink some beer while doing all of the above? And listen to some tunes? :banana:

By the way Storm, if Zilch has my other pair of APT-80's back, we can try substituting them for your T-35's. I'll bet they will sound much better than the EV tweets.

Jack Gifford

[sourceoneaudio]

And can we also drink some beer while doing all of the above? And listen to some tunes? :banana:

By the way Storm, if Zilch has my other pair of APT-80's back, we can try substituting them for your T-35's. I'll bet they will sound much better than the EV tweets.

Jack Gifford

I think he was looking at those Fostex tweets Zilch and I were discussing. If that is the direction he goes which according to your findings, I can do the same bring them in at 8500 at 18db and put an l-pad on them, also install 5 way binding post. I can do all of it b4 the next show down. That way we can do more listening, beer drinking and less physical work. :applaud: I can get him the parts list and getter done.


J/S-S1A :D

[Zilch]

I'll send the Crites tweets along to try, as well.... :thmbsup:


I can get him the parts list and getter done."Done?"

Storm?


:rotfl:

[jackgiff]

I'll send the Crites tweets along to try, as well.... :thmbsup:


Hey, you can bring the Crites tweets down, and join in. Could be a real happening!

I could make a mounting board for Storms new tweets if they are APT-80s, or if Fostex, they would just sit on top?

WOW, another comparo, and this one would be much better. And if I decide to order another pair of BMS (4552 this time) they could be ready as well. Jeff, could you and Tom bring his Vals as well as the tweets?

Jack Gifford

[sourceoneaudio]

I think those Fostex's will be very interesting they have an extended response to 33k. Be curious as to the air they add. ?


http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=3728176.1553&pid=349






J/S-S1A

[sourceoneaudio]

Hey, you can bring the Crites tweets down, and join in. Could be a real happening!

I could make a mounting board for Storms new tweets if they are APT-80s, or if Fostex, they would just sit on top?

WOW, another comparo, and this one would be much better. And if I decide to order another pair of BMS (4552 this time) they could be ready as well. Jeff, could you and Tom bring his Vals as well as the tweets?

Jack Gifford

I'm going to do a cabinet swap on all his drivers. I'll have to see where I'm as far as progress goes on the project, I have some refinishing to do on the new cab's. It's a big question? I know I can get Storm's done in time. Also the issue is transporting them up if I get Tom's done. The only way I see it happening is if they have extra room to transport them, and if I get them done.

J/S-S1A :D

[sourceoneaudio]

I'll send the Crites tweets along to try, as well.... :thmbsup:

"Done?"

Storm?


:rotfl:



I think he is sleeping at the wheel?

J/S-S1A

[Zilch]

I have in front of me that posting from the site that has all three phasing time alignment issues that Altec covered with in board flange, out board flange, and voice coil in plane time alignment.Where the flanges are:

[Not illustrated.]

[Zilch]

The dip at 2.5 kHz is also troublesome, but it looks like 8 kHz would not be a bad point to kick in the tweeters on that pair.Same dip here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14690&page=41

That's when I likewise concluded 6 kHz or 8 kHz would be appropriate for crossing in a tweeter.

Looks familiar now, no?

[Zilch]

I think those Fostex's will be very interesting they have an extended response to 33k. Be curious as to the air they add?I bought the Crites and BMS. Jack bought the Eminence. Tom bought the Klipsch. Storm bought the T-35s.

YOU buy the Fostex.... :p

[sourceoneaudio]

I bought the Crites and BMS. Jack bought the Eminence. Tom bought the Klipsch. Storm bought the T-35s.

YOU buy the Fostex.... :p


You are so funny Mr. Zilch. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Those were my Klipsch Tweeters Tom bought, second, Like I'm going to buy drivers for speakers that are not mine.........:blink: ho, ho, ha, ha, hee, hee, ha, ha.!!!!



J/S-S1A :bouncy:

[Storm]

second, Like I'm going to buy drivers

J/S-S1A :bouncy:

I think you are talking about tweeters...

;)

So, Jeff - are we completing the Fostex tweeter addition before we do the speaker shootout on the 19th, or are we going to wait to do it until the 19th?

Where are we putting the fostex tweeters?

Jack, is this a go for the 19th or just talk?

-Storm

[jackgiff]

I think you are talking about tweeters...

;)

So, Jeff - are we completing the Fostex tweeter addition before we do the speaker shootout on the 19th, or are we going to wait to do it until the 19th?

Where are we putting the fostex tweeters?

Jack, is this a go for the 19th or just talk?

-Storm

The 19th is a target proposed by Jeff, but it isn't really clear from my schedule whether that is a good date or not. Will probably know within the next week.

Sounds like Jeff has convinced you to do the Fostex tweeter thing. Placement will be critical for several reasons as you know. For what it is worth, Zilch is going to order a pair of BMS 4552 drivers for me, and test them to work out any value changes to the LCR filter before sending them to me. I really think the BMS fix would work best for you, but I cannot tell you what decisions to make. After hearing most of the ways to add HF to the Vals, BMS is the way I have chosen to go for my third pair. That should tell you something.

And I will bet when I post pix of the BMS FR tomorrow, it won't have the big dip at 2.5 KHz that the Altec 806A does. If you can't wait to hear the different units, you are buying a pig in a poke. Does Jeff guarantee the Fostex will "add air?"

Too bad, in my mind.

Jack Gifford :)

[4313B]

Having measurement capabilities is pretty much essential for doing this stuff, in my experience. :yes:



More data ... less wank....
Yeah... we're pretty happy that we were able to show you that so you could then spam the ever living hell out of our forum with pretty much everything you could get your hands on to measure. :rotfl: I sometimes wonder if you wonder why the rest of us don't bother. :hmm:

But the noodles love it so carry on. :) I'm still waiting for these leaches to set you up with a LEAP or MLSSA system so you can hit the big leagues and have a reason to increase your post count by an order of magnitude. Seriously Zilch, you have the inclination, and you obviously have a ton of spare time, so you might as well be making money from all this. You spoke of getting up a retirement fund, this might be the ticket. There has been talk about moving all this to your personal website for several years now. Basically you are using a free website to post personal stuff at will and some people have been questioning that.

[Zilch]

I sometimes wonder if you wonder why the rest of us don't bother. :hmm: Heh. You measure, I jus' KNOW it.

In secret. :p


I'm still waiting for these leaches to set you up with a LEAP or MLSSA system so you can hit the big leagues....The Grille Cloth fund is eyeing LEAP, of late.... :thmbsup:

[4313B]

Heh. You measure, I jus' KNOW it.

In secret. :pI measure when there is a specific need. It isn't a lifestyle for me.
The Grille Cloth fund is eyeing LEAP, of late.... :thmbsup:Good. I realize that you are addicted to all this and you insist on pursuing it. I really do want you to look into your own website for all these projects though. You can link to it like others do from your monikers here and on AK. You would be able to build it any way you wished and you could detail your research.

[Storm]

If you can't wait to hear the different units, you are buying a pig in a poke. Does Jeff guarantee the Fostex will "add air?"

Jack Gifford :)

He is not promising anything. I have not ordered anything, yet.

Should I?

I am confused now...:banghead:

-Storm.

[Zilch]

I am confused now...:banghead: Wait, Storm, until after the second Comparo is complete.

Jack will measure your Valencias for you, in comparison to the other options.

Decide on the basis of what you see, hear and like best then.... :thmbsup:

[hjames]

I am confused now...:banghead:

-Storm.

Wait, Storm, until after the second Comparo is complete.

Decide on the basis of what you hear and like best then.... :thmbsup:

He was confused before, he's confused now, he'll be confused then ...
if a cute little altec shakes its cone in his face he'll swear fealty for life and be off on another tangent ... :bouncy: Its inevitable!

[jackgiff]

Jack will measure your Valencias for you, in comparison to the other options.

Decide on the basis of what you see, hear and like best then.... :thmbsup:

But Jack is not going to spring for a $220 pair of Fostex tweets not knowing how or where they should mount, or how good they will really sound, or if Storm will buy them. Or if the added time alignment problems can be dealt with satisfactorily. I have recommended to Storm that the BMS drivers are the best answer I have heard. That is why I have ordered another pair of them. The next pair are the same as the 4550's except they have neodymium magnets, which have a slightly increased field strength. They don't have any mounting problems, nor any added time alignment problems. Quite simple, really. Why be confused?

Jack Gifford

[jackgiff]

He was confused before, he's confused now, he'll be confused then ...
if a cute little altec shakes its cone in his face he'll swear fealty for life and be off on another tangent ... :bouncy: Its inevitable!

Heather, those speakers in your avatar are not the L200 cabinets you just recently bought. They look awfully nice. You must be truly improving your home system. And all of the good JBL stuff is said to reside on the left coast. Not so?

Jack Gifford

[Zilch]

But Jack is not going to spring for a $220 pair of Fostex tweets not knowing how or where they should mount, or how good they will really sound, or if Storm will buy them.Much as I'd like to hear them, I'm not springing, either.

It does present a more normalized choice for consideration, tho: Does one spend $220 for a pair of Fostex tweeters, or $230 for a pair of BMS drivers? :hmm:

[Storm]

It does present a more normalized choice for consideration, tho: Does one spend $220 for a pair of Fostex tweeters, or $230 for a pair of BMS drivers? :hmm:

Zilch -

You have to add on the $65.30 for parts, plus shipping. And then the time to install.

Should I just get the BMS drivers or what?

It is easier to just attach the BMS drivers to the horn or is there more steps than to take out of the box and install?

Thanks.

-Storm.

:)

[Zilch]

Should I just get the BMS drivers or what?

What I said earlier today: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=166925&postcount=794


It is easier to just attach the BMS drivers to the horn or is there more steps than to take out of the box and install?There is a small additional filter, maybe $50 for the pair. You can see it installed next to the driver in Jack's Vals here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=166744&postcount=784

[sourceoneaudio]

Much as I'd like to hear them, I'm not springing, either.

It does present a more normalized choice for consideration, tho: Does one spend $220 for a pair of Fostex tweeters, or $230 for a pair of BMS drivers? :hmm:

That is kinda of what I was thinking. Did anyone hear the BMS b4 purchasing?? No I'm guessing. So yes this is a DIY speaker project, and improvement project from the start. Jack, I would also say the mounting pattern is very close too if not the same as the tweeter you chose. I have a couple of different ideas for mounting them, been dwelling on it all night. I think from reading the specs on the Fostex it is a very good choice, especially with the extended range it has. I also feel it will be a 10 fold improvement over the T-35 wanna be tweeter. This should be very fun and interesting.

J/S-S1A :D

[jackgiff]

Finally got the BMS drivers and horns swapped with the APT-80 set, so that Pix of BMS FR could be taken with and without grilles. Also cleaned up the wiring of the BMS set, and had to adapt my 1200 HZ crossover for the Altec woofers, which are obviously not the 16 ohms they are rated.

Any way, here are the pix of the BMS drivered units. The first pic is the left speaker with grille. Second is left without grill. Third is right with grille. Fourth is right without grill.

The fretwork grille does have a very small effect on the HF, increasing with frequency. Simply turning the LPad adjust should account for this minor difference.

Now it's time to go listen to them, and have a beer. How sweeeet it is.

Jack Gifford :applaud::applaud::applaud:

[hjames]

Thanks - just got them home from a 3 state trip to PA ... set up in the living room tonight - fine tuning can come later ... they are not perfect, but - potential is high.

Actually, they were from "Right Coast Recording Studio (http://www.rightcoastrecording.com/)" - that was really their name, no joke ... got a thread with more details elsewhere ...


Heather, those speakers in your avatar are not the L200 cabinets you just recently bought. They look awfully nice. You must be truly improving your home system. And all of the good JBL stuff is said to reside on the left coast. Not so?

Jack Gifford

[Zilch]

... here are the pix of the BMS drivered units.As you predicted, the dip at 2.5 kHz is gone, and the compensation is now operating substantially as intended (below). There's likely more we can do to optimize the transition at crossover, but as is, they're suitable for listening comparisons.

The grille rolls off the VHF a few dB, but not so much as to be of concern. In fact, you may find that to be the more pleasant sounding of those two options.

The dip at 400 Hz is likely room modes at work, and I'd expect it to be different when you move them from the test space into the listening room.

Generally speaking, my own preferred balance would be with the HF attenuated a bit more overall from your present setting.

I look forward to your listening appraisal; you're now hearing these very much as I do here. :cheers:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24085&stc=1&d=1175412756

[Zilch]

1) Diminutive neodymium-magnet BMS 4552nd, smaller in diameter than Altec 811B horn flange, even, has 1 kHz minimum recommended crossover frequency, top.

846A/B highpass is actually 1.2 kHz, despite 800 Hz spec, so either 4550 or 4552 is useable in Valencia.

2) Frequency response of Jack's 4552nd pair:

a) Drivers only top (400 Hz highpass)
b) Drivers on factory 846A N-800-F crossover
c) With compensation filter, bottom3) N-800-F attenuation adjustment range.

4) Filter schematic. Use same with either 4550-16 or 4552nd-16.

5) Parts list.

[jackgiff]

This is probably the most cost efficient way to add a tweeter to spice up the HF in your Valencias. We all love our Vals, and they really do sound good, but the HF end is lacking something, and a lot of bandwidth has been expended here seeking answers to the riddle of how to fix them.

The Eminence APT-80 Supertweeter is a moderately inexpensive device, and a decent performer. Zilch tested this tweet earlier in the thread, and found it capable enough to list as another possible fix. I tried it at a crossover frequency of 3.5 KHz and 5 KHz, but it didn't really sound like Altec's should sound. After Jeff used a Klipsch tweet high passed at 8.5 KHz and 18 Db per octave, I decided to try the APT-80 similarly high passed at 7.5 KHz at 12 Db per octave. Since the Altecs sound so good, trying to do anything other than filling in the missing HF response with an added tweeter will change the sound of them. The tweet needs to simply fill out the response curve where the Altec 806A isn't working.

The APT-80 does an admirable job of adding the HF without influencing the Altec sound for a cost of less than $100 per pair. The parts are all available from Parts Express, including the APT-80's, which are priced at $29.09 each. In post 385 of this thread, I showed where I had mounted the APT-80's in the middle of the 811 horn. This location gives excellent results without modifying the look of the Altec cabinet. Other tweeters are surely available which will fill the bill while maybe costing less, but be sure they are capable of producing the needed HF response up to 20 KHz.

The FR of one Valencia is shown with the HF LPad set in the minimum position (APT-80 out of circuit, so response is stock Altec), with LPad at maximum postion, and with LPad set at about halfway, which is where they sound most pleasant to me. The last pic is of the FR while listening to a CD labeled Monster Jazz. It is quite heavy on the cymbals, and you can see the HF that would be missing on a stock Valencia. The RTA is set to slow response with peak set at slow to capture the music as played on the screen.

Now, I am out in the garage listening to them and drinking a beer. How sweet it is.

Jack Gifford

[jackgiff]

Wish I had the RTA before setting up the comparo. They weren't ready then, but they are now. These pix show where the LPad was mounted for the APT-80 on the back panel, and shows the mounting of the high pass components. The .25 Mh choke is mounted between pins one and three of the Lpad, and the 1.88 Microfarad capacitor is mounted in line with the + lead of the connection from the speaker input to the Lpad. A 2 Microfarad cap will set the High pass frequency at about 7.3 KHz, which will work just as good, and be a lot easier than paralleling caps to get the right value.

Storm and Jeff, if you can get back to Prescott, you simply have to hear these Vals. And the APT-80's are playing through the fretwork grille on the FR pix in the previous post. Pretty impressive.

Jack Gifford

[jackgiff]

Since I had three pairs of Altec 846A Valencias, it seemed fitting that we tried a pair of BMS 4552's versus the 4550's which Zilch had picked as the most likely replacement for the Altec 806A's. They use the exact same LCR filter values as the 4550's, and the same 19 KHz dampener, if you care to use it. The 4552 has a neodymium magnet which reduces it's weight by roughly 2 pounds, and results in a much smaller driver. It has about a 10% increase in flux density which supposedly translates into a greater definition in the HF region. It isn't apparent to me after listening to both pairs for about a week, but can probably be measured, and may be apparent to someone who is more acoustically gifted. The 4552's cost about $34 apiece more than 4550s, and the extra cost of $68 per pair is not worth spending, in my book.

Both of the BMS fitted pairs reside in the master bedroom, and are providing a new appreciation for the Valencias. Never have we heard such HF from a Val, and the fact they are no longer completely Altec doesn't matter to us. I have previously presented RTA plots of the 4550's, and the 4552's are essentially identical, so will dispense with them here. If the fact that Altec parts have been replaced with non-Altec parts bothers you, maybe adding tweeters would be your best fix. The BMS drivers are my choice, because the change is easier to accomplish, adds no further time delay problems over the 806A's, and keeps the systems 2-way's.

Now that all three of my Vals have been fixed to provide frequency response out to 20 KHZ, and all of them do it relatively flat which is something a stock Val doesn't do, the next fix to them is obviously going to be in bracing the cabinets to eliminate flex, and adding to the internal padding which seems marginal. The Valencias have the potential to become really great speakers, some 40 years after their introduction.

I have tried both of the BMS drivers simply substituting them for the 806A's and adding the LCR filters as Zilch suggests, but have preferred to build new crossovers since the filter capactors in the N800F's are roughly 40 years old. My crossovers were calculated to use 3 Mh chokes, and 5.86 Microfarad capactors, but the 416 woofer in the Vals was still pumping out at over 2 KHZ, and increasing the cap across the woofer to 16 Microfarads brought it into compliance. This compares to the values of the N800F of 4 and 10.5 Microfarads. The N800F does the job quite nicely, and can save some bucks if cost is paramount.

At any rate, the two fixes proposed to the Valencias brings them up to standard at reasonable cost. Which one you select is up to you.

Good Luck with your Valencias.

Jack Gifford :)

[Gary L]

Thanks for the update Jack. I was thinking the interest died here.

Good to hear the fix is satisfying you and the Mrs.

Regarding the 4550 Vs 4552, I will eventually go with Zilch's guidance toward the 4552 because the 19 XO is crossed at 1200 Khz rather then the Vals 800.
My question to you is do I have to make any changes to the 811B horn to bolt on the 4552?

This thread has certainly been a "Long and winding road" and I am happy with the results. Like you, I prefer to keep my 19s as a two way system rather then to add an additional tweeter and updated XO components.

For all you Val owners, there has been some outstanding work, fun and commeraderee here and many members really did step up to the plate to make a very good speaker much better.

Thanks to all who gave of their time and efforts and it has been great being involved.

Gary

[jackgiff]

Regarding the 4550 Vs 4552, I will eventually go with Zilch's guidance toward the 4552 because the 19 XO is crossed at 1200 Khz rather then the Vals 800.
My question to you is do I have to make any changes to the 811B horn to bolt on the 4552?


Gary

There are absolutely no changes that need to be made to the 811B horn. Simply bolt either of the BMS drivers in place of the 806A. The mounting hardware is different (1/4-20 for the 806A, 6 mm for the 4550, 5 mm for the 4552). but is available at any hardware store.

The Valencia crossover is also at 1200 Hz, not the 800 Hz they advertise. The model 19 crossover has some extra compensation, which Zilch has gave info on in this thread. Either BMS driver will be a great improvement over the 806A's. Please let us know how you like them when they are installed, and you have had some time to enjoy them.

Jack Gifford :applaud:

[VTUBE6]

Hey guys, was just telling Zilch I just returned from a 3 week trip. I asked a friend to build the comp. networks for me while I was gone, but he let me down. :( That's okay, I still like him. :) Anyway, he did let me borrow a pair of super tweeters (modified Raven ribbons) to play with. They are 95db efficient and are crossed at 14K. They play from 14-40K. I know, that may seem ridiculous, but I heard them on some other speakers that had really good tweeters on them and these things took the whole "air" thing to another level.

I just hooked them up to my uncomp'ed BMS drivers and upon initial listening....no magic. :( Could be the difference in efficiency or could be the BMS driver overwhelming everything else. :dont-know Who knows, but I'll keep playing and will provide an update when I get the comp networks and upgraded caps in the speakers. Cheers!

[Zilch]

Along with his drivers for measurement, Gary sent a vintage Altec "light" 23744 diaphragm. I loaded it into an Altec 802D motor today, and ran that in comparision to one of each of the other driver types on hand using Model 19's N1201-8A crossover, adjusting each for maximally flat:

1) Compared to Scott's 806A (yes, wrong impedance, but not all that apparent,) and Gary's GPA-refurbished 802-8G

2) Compared to BMS 4550 and 4552nd

3) All of them at once

4) Add Radian in 804A, black.

[If I had M19s, I believe I know what I'd be spending $300 to try.... :yes: ]

[Tom Brennan]

Zilch---I've seen several curves from other experimenters that show better response than you're getting.

Here's an uneqalized curve I got several years ago on an RTA. The mic was a calibrated Panasonic and the curve was taken at my listening position and on-axis of the speakers which were toed in. The slices are coarse but show the trend of extension pretty well.

This was an A5 bassbin, 902 on 511 horn and twin JBL 4648s bassbins augmenting below 100hz. Crossover at 500hz with a DOD. That's +-5db 25 hz to 16khz. At the listening position, not bad.

[Zilch]

Thanks, Tom.

I'm actually showing BETTER response than you from the Altecs, +/- 2.5 dB, using Gary's drivers on M19 crossover, out to 14 kHz.

Just to confirm, I'm looking back at the initial measurements from nearly two months ago, and it looks like I'm getting reasonably repeatable results:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=160762#post160762

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=160635#post160635

There's no denying the M19 crossover levels the major response anomaly with compensation, and I'm not going to quibble about whether or not the HF extension is adequate at 14 vs. 16 kHz. The problem is that the response is not smooth by comparison, and that's clearly shown in your results as well. Look again at how the HF is now performing in Jack's Valencias:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=167133#post167133

The Radians would probably do better than Altec diaphragms overall, particularly with the tangerine phase plug, but they clearly suffer the same difficulty in response smoothness. While it's risky to conclude anything from just these single samples, the "light" diaphragm appears to do better in the high end, but gives it up lower down.

Jack's running both the BMS alone and the Altec driver with tweeter, so I expect that if anything significant about the sonic character of the system is lost in the upgrade, he'll be telling us so. I certainly don't hear anything like that; if anybody hates the sound of mylar, it's not because the response isn't smooth....

[louped garouv]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=171074&postcount=41


has anyone ever gotten a chance to measure the prototype Altec Be 'phragms?

;)

[moldyoldy]

... the "light" diaphragm appears to do better in the high end, but gives it up lower down....

Apparrently by design, as they were only used in >1K apps, a limited run of 802s (many of which went to M19s), and studio-bound Duplexes.

[Earl K]

Interesting turn of events ( & interpretations of FR plots )

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24142&stc=1&d=1175669096

I look at the above curve & "see" great possibilities to design something über pleasing to listen to . The end result ( after tweaking ) would likely require a biamped setup / to make up for the lost gain due to response "notching" . Pairing the 802/902 with a less efficient woofer (than the 416-8b ) is a possibiblity. Either the JBL ME150H or 2234H come to mind .

Notching Filtering
- I'd strap across the driver, a series LCR ( centered around 4100 hz ), dialing in a mild bit of notch ( @ 1.5 or 2.0 db ).
- The 7500 hz bump might get treated / OTOH, it may not / its' a 50/50 toss-up determined by listening impressions .
- The 12K to 13K bump would remain untouched .
- The 800 hz bloom might need to remain in place / all dependant on crossover filters meshing together , etc. .

- I know what Altecs' transducers are capable of ( esp. their engineered recipe for compression drivers ) , which is why I listen to them .


http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24141&stc=1&d=1175668227

- The above plot of the BMS driver is remarkably flat .
- Unfortunately, without listening to this driver I can't tell from the plot much about its' resolving capabilities ( or distortion characteristics ) .
- Its' Mylar diaphragm may well be too dead/damped for my taste .
- It's unlikely that its' "sound" is too "live" based on my experience with the Mylar diaphragms found in B&C drivers ).


- Here's the official FR plot ( unsmoothed ) for the crowd pleasing 4345 / maybe someone should work out a way to "fix" this ( likely not going to happen given its' acceptance ). This plot would "look" a lot better with 1/6 octave "smoothing and "great" with 1/3 octave smoothing . A plot like this ( as well as Altecs' older stuff ) somewhat rely on the old adage that the typical listener is only capable of resolving a range as narrow as @ 1/3 octave , for plus or minus a couple of db .



:)

[Zilch]

Notching Filtering
- I'd strap across the driver, a series LCR ( centered around 4100 hz ), dialing in a mild bit of notch ( @ 1.5 or 2.0 db ).
- The 7500 hz bump might get treated / OTOH, it may not / its' a 50/50 toss-up determined by listening impressions .
- The 12K to 13K bump would remain untouched .
- The 800 hz bloom might need to remain in place / all dependant on crossover filters meshing together , etc. .

- I know what Altecs' transducers are capable of ( esp. their engineered recipe for compression drivers ) , which is why I listen to them .Yup, here's the pair of them, indicating there's enough commonality to work with:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=24117&stc=1&d=1175586531


However, I don't have that level of commitment or dedication to Altec drivers. If vintage aluminum were what I liked and wanted, I'd drill the mounting flanges and install LE85s, which are virtually "Plug 'n' play." Here's a pair of those, running uncompensated, as I recall, which would be much easier to "fix," and further afford the potential of enhanced response above 12 kHz, as in 4430. The notch at 16 kHz in the Altecs would be a deterrent, whereas the vintage JBLs have a reasonable slope to work with up there.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=23975&stc=1&d=1175047386

No way am I messing with 4345s other than to get past them.... ;)


- The above plot of the BMS driver is remarkably flat .
- Unfortunately, without listening to this driver I can't tell from the plot much about its' resolving capabilities ( or distortion characteristics ) .
- Its' Mylar diaphragm may well be too dead/damped for my taste .
- It's unlikely that its' "sound" is too "live" based on my experience with the Mylar diaphragms found in B&C drivers ).I had them to work with because others here regarded them highly. It's all of $150 to try the premium 4552nd version....

[jackgiff]

Interesting turn of events ( & interpretations of FR plots )
- The above plot of the BMS driver is remarkably flat .
- Unfortunately, without listening to this driver I can't tell from the plot much about its' resolving capabilities ( or distortion characteristics ) .
- Its' Mylar diaphragm may well be too dead/damped for my taste .
- It's unlikely that its' "sound" is too "live" based on my experience with the Mylar diaphragms found in B&C drivers ).


Earl, I am sure my listening tastes are different than yours, and I am not a audio expert by any means, but I have listened to Valencias for 40 years. I have one pair with 4550's and one pair with 4552's. They both sound pretty darn good, and I have sold one pair of 806A's, and the other pair will be for sale soon. The BMS drivers with mylar diaphragms have very good definition and sound much cleaner than the 806A's they replaced. Of course, I have also replaced the crossovers with new homemade stuff, and with the RTA was able to get them working same as the N800F's they replaced.

I wish you were close enough to come and listen to them. I would like to have someone elses opinion of how they sound. My wife and I are both thrilled with them. They certainly don't sound dead to us.

Jack Gifford :D

[Zilch]

How are you going to know if you have actually accomplished that without a pair or 4345's on hand to compare them too??EASY -- just beat any of the several systems that already beat THEM!!

[Life's too short to be messin' with 4-ways.... :p ]

[moldyoldy]

....[Life's too short to be messin' with 4-ways.... :p ]

Or is it that the BW's too wide to do it with 2....:p

[Zilch]

Or is it that the BW's too wide to do it with 2....:pIt's a conspiracy.

Just when I get close, they go and add another octave.... :banghead:

[moldyoldy]

It's a conspiracy...

Possibly, in the grand scheme...

But how much fun would it be if it were easy?

[Zilch]

So you already have a pair built and have used them to compare to the winners in your evaluations??Well, I can never really be SURE 'til Bo and Speakerdave hear 'em.... ;)

[Storm]

Okay guys...

The speakers that started this thread are up for auction.

No, the tweeters are not included. I removed the tweeters and added an extra set of fresh foam in each speaker. I removed the wires as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180126072696&rd=1&rd=1

Take a look, if you want.

I am still amazed that one post about speakers could result in more than 50 pages of discussion. Incredible.

I will miss these speakers, but I know that I will thouroughly enjoy the 250TI's, just as much -- if not more.

;)

-Storm

[SEAWOLF97]

two questions . Storm ...and I am serious, so dont get offended or defensive.

1, you are an experienced eBay seller, why didn't you list them yourself ?

2, whats up with the grills ? Is it just a bad picture ? (looks like someone barfed on them)

[Storm]

1. Thank you for the compliment - I am shocked at such, due to our rocky past on this site. While yes, I am an experienced seller -- selling speakers worldwide is not my forte. I know nothing about how to pack and ship in order to offer worldwide *hence, to hopefully get more money for them.

2. The grilles came that way when I purchased them. They look worse than they are - seriously. I tried cleaning them, to no avail.

-Storm.


two questions . Storm ...and I am serious, so dont get offended or defensive.

1, you are an experienced eBay seller, why didn't you list them yourself ?

2, whats up with the grills ? Is it just a bad picture ? (looks like someone barfed on them)

[moldyoldy]

Yeah, I hear crusty barf foam is all the rage in Tokyo now...:blink:

Now that forever has been redefined, I'm marking my calendar.

[SEAWOLF97]

Yeah, I hear crusty barf foam is all the rage in Tokyo now...:blink:.

Everything American is "IN" in old Nippon.....:rotfl::rotfl:

[Storm]

Yeah, I hear crusty barf foam is all the rage in Tokyo now...:blink:

Now that forever has been redefined, I'm marking my calendar.

I think you can keep your day job.

;)

-Storm.

[Zilch]

... But here's a finished pair of 846A compensation filters for BMS 4550-16 in Valencia:

[clmrt]

Zilch for the win.

:applaud:

[Zilch]

They should be in Alaska by now, and we'll likely be getting some kinda feedback here soon. :yes:

[They're mirror-imaged for good fortune, harmonic convergence, balance in the universe and all that. Heh, heh.... ]

[Storm]

They should be in Alaska by now, and we'll likely be getting some kinda feedback here soon.... :yes:

It's like the feeling you get on X-MAS morning...

:p

Can't wait to "hear" the results.

-Storm.

[VTUBE6]

... But here's a finished pair of 846A compensation filters for BMS 4550 in Valencia:

Zilch, your work looks so much cleaner than mine....I'm ashamed to post pics of my stuff, but they do work.

Two weeks ago I replaced the caps on my crossover (846b) to Solen caps. That made a HUGE difference in transparency. I was initially blown away with the microdynamics, but now I feel it's a bit too much with my solid state amp (at higher volume levels). I blew a cap in my tube monos and I'm waiting for parts from the factory in the UK. I suspect once I get tubes back into the system things will "mellow" a bit. I did add that supertweeter (Raven) to add a bit of air over 15k and it's made a big difference in adding height to the image (but, they surprisingly don't add any edge to teh sound, they are at 95db efficiency, so that may be why). The speakers now sound proportionate to the soundstage, in other words, they don't sound squatty, they sound big. I have the speakers flat on the floor with no tilt back.

Overall, I'm VERY pleased with the sound. I have a pair of VTL mini triodes coming this week to hold me over till my 300B based amps get back into the system. I'll send an update once I get those in for a listen.

Thanks Zilch for the specs on the comp network....it really made all the difference in the world. :applaud: You all have found a great solution to taking these speakers to near world class (for what they do, high efficiency, vocals, horns, woodwind, etc). I think a little more tweaking is in order with dampening the horn and ultimately switching out the caps to find the best tonal balance, but at the end of the day, these efficient speakers can hang with the current big boys. They don't do everything well, but what speaker does? Thanks!

[Zilch]

Zilch, your work looks so much cleaner than mine....Well, you'll note I never show the BACK sides of my boards. :p

I'm pleased the mod is working for you. It has become the basis of several new designs here, as well. :thmbsup:

Of interest, perhaps:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=82503&highlight=BMS+4550&r=&session=

[That's good company, it is.... :yes: ]

[jackgiff]

Well, you'll note I never show the BACK sides of my boards. :p



Zilch, You need to graduate to printed circuit boards instead of the old style breadboard stuff. They are pretty simple to expose and etch. Then you can show off the backs as well.

[SMKSoundPro]

Very Cool!!!

As I am ALL about symmetry

Symmetry in common usage generally conveys two primary meanings. The first is an imprecise sense of harmonious or aesthetically-pleasing proportionality and balance; such that it reflects beauty or perfection. The second meaning is a precise and well-defined concept of balance or "patterned self-similarity" that can be demonstrated or proved according to the rules of a formal system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_system): by geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry), through physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics) or otherwise.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry#_note-Weyl000)

Really outstanding engineering is in the details!:applaud:

Can't wait to see and hear the results!

Scotty.

[SMKSoundPro]

Dear Friends and Family,

I just received the Christams packages from:

"ZilchOne Technical Empirical Labs & Hot Spring Spa Sales Emporium"

Just kidding.

Everything looks outstanding!!!

I am in the middle of building amp racks, and will get to puting the finishing touches to the Vals, probably next week.

We have over 20 hours of daylight, and it is hard to stay in my shop with no windows! I have been making short days at work, and have been accused of dressing as if on vacation.

A HUGE Thank you goes out to Mr. Zilch for his incredible attention to detail!; Jack Giff & Myrna, Storm and MoldyOldy for their advice and guidance on this retrofit.

Also to the ravishingly intellectual Ms. Heather & Ms. Emily for their kind words of encouragement.

And finally to Scott Marin, the moron DJ that actually owns these Vals that gave me a new interest in ALtec speakers of old. I fired him two weeks ago for not showing up to work, and leaving Lisa and I in a bind on more than many occassions! Lisa and I are still trying to figure out a legal way to keep these "ZilchLencia's" and are looking for ideas from all of you.

I will post results as soon as possible!

Thank You all for everything!!!!

Scott.

[Storm]

You are most welcome.

I can't believe this thread grew to this volume.

However, without out the others and especially ZILCH LABS - this thread would not be what it is.

RE: Keeping the speakers -

I thought that in any case - possesion is 9/10ths of the law. If he can't prove they were ever his to begin with, then he cant claim them. Keep them or pay him a reasonable price for them. You will not regret it.

I would have kept mine, but I came across JBL 250TIs. If you can ever find a pair of 250s in Alaska, sell the Vals and keep the JBLs.

Nothing beats a good 4 way JBL! Yes, I said it...

;)

-Storm.






Dear Friends and Family,

I just received the Christams packages from:

"ZilchOne Technical Empirical Labs & Hot Spring Spa Sales Emporium"

Just kidding.

Everything looks outstanding!!!

I am in the middle of building amp racks, and will get to puting the finishing touches to the Vals, probably next week.

We have over 20 hours of daylight, and it is hard to stay in my shop with no windows! I have been making short days at work, and have been accused of dressing as if on vacation.

A HUGE Thank you goes out to Mr. Zilch for his incredible attention to detail!; Jack Giff & Myrna, Storm and MoldyOldy for their advice and guidance on this retrofit.

Also to the ravishingly intellectual Ms. Heather & Ms. Emily for their kind words of encouragement.

And finally to Scott Marin, the moron DJ that actually owns these Vals that gave me a new interest in ALtec speakers of old. I fired him two weeks ago for not showing up to work, and leaving Lisa and I in a bind on more than many occassions! Lisa and I are still trying to figure out a legal way to keep these "ZilchLencia's" and are looking for ideas from all of you.

I will post results as soon as possible!

Thank You all for everything!!!!

Scott.

[Zilch]

It'd be good if they worked now, for sure.... :p

[SMKSoundPro]

some pix

[Storm]

Very nice!

I am floored!

Nice work - keep it up!

Now, how do they sound?

;)

-Storm

[SMKSoundPro]

Will tell you the whole story later!

They are a definite improvement!!!!


But, good riddence to them and their owner!!!

I guarantee I'll see them again in a pawn shop.

Scotty.

[Storm]

Did you do all the work?

Sounds as though he was not to keen to change them...does he not want them now?

No way you can purchase them from him?

What's the story...I know you are dying to tell.

;)

Hey - the sun is still up, you've got time! LOL.

-Storm.


Will tell you the whole story later!

They are a definite improvement!!!!


But, good riddence to them and their owner!!!

I guarantee I'll see them again in a pawn shop.

Scotty.

[SMKSoundPro]

they were silky smooth from 800 up and very easy to listen to.

I am such a JBL guy, and these are no slouch!

Thank you to Mr. Zilch!!!!!!!!!!!

And: Jack Gifford for the N800 xover. I was able to pry the can apart and steal the pot and its parts and put together the OEM.


I am rocking out to my L200b's with a double 2245 sub underneath the counter here at the club. Let Scott Martin keep his vals. My JBL world rocks! I just hope Scott understands all that went into this adventure. He just wanted them NOW!!!! (must be the coke) Good Riddence!


Thank you ALL!!!!!!

I never knew how blessed I truly am to have peers as in all of you!

most humbly,
Bill Koeller's #2 son
scotty.

[SMKSoundPro]

Storm,

Its after 12:00 am your time...






GO TO BED!!!!!

[Storm]

Well, kudos to you - sir.

Very nice job and congratulations!

Yep, friends are a plenty on this forum.

;)

ROCK OUT!!!

-Storm


they were silky smooth from 800 up and very easy to listen to.

I am such a JBL guy, and these are no slouch!

Thank you to Mr. Zilch!!!!!!!!!!!

And: Jack Gifford for the N800 xover. I was able to pry the can apart and steal the pot and its parts and put together the OEM.


I am rocking out to my L200b's with a double 2245 sub underneath the counter here at the club. Let Scott Martin keep his vals. My JBL world rocks! I just hope Scott understands all that went into this adventure. He just wanted them NOW!!!! (must be the coke) Good Riddence!


Thank you ALL!!!!!!

I never knew how blessed I truly am to have peers as in all of you!

most humbly,
Bill Koeller's #2 son
scotty.

[Storm]

I got up to get some water and along the way is the computer.

I always check the threads -- very addicting, thats for sure.

Going to bed, now.

;)

-Storm


Storm,

Its after 12:00 am your time...






GO TO BED!!!!!

[Zilch]

They certainly look nice, and I hope you had the opportunity to listen to them for a while. Ultimately, they may find their way back to you and Lisa.

[Those are keepers.... :yes: ]

[SMKSoundPro]

Yes, they really are keepers!

No, I only got to spend about three hours with them, but it was a good session.

I pwered them with a Yamaha P2200 amp, while keeping the L200b's on another P2200. I was able to turn the Vals up, then the 200's. I was just starting to get the bead on the vals when Scott came to get them. Apparently fired from his radio station gig, and our nightclub. He was so giddy, he just wanted them NOW, NOW, NOW!

Fine. They're his. It would have been nice to pink them a have a detailed printout for all of you to see, but that did not happen.

If they fell back into my lap, I would keep them! I also have all of the parts to make another pair. The cabs are simple. I have 511 and 811 horns. We know which driver to use.

Remember that the Vals are 16 ohms, and they sounded like it. They did not growl like the 200's. They were sweet. Ordered. Calm. predictable. Smoooooth! Like a very expensive and OLD single malt scotch, as I can barely remember back that far. You can curl up with a rocks glass while counting the buttons on Julie London's sweater on the album cover and be whistfully taken somewhere else, for a moment.

OR: conger up images of the Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass, and let your mind wander to the lady with the whipped cream! Very Racey for its day! I have always loved cool whip ever since!

Vere definitely bedroom speakers! A little Mel Torme', and then some Barry White, and then.....well you know. Very cool!

All for now. It is late, and Lisa is already taking all of the covers from my side. Must reclaim my side of the bed.

Thank YOU!!!

Scotty.

[jackgiff]

Vere definitely bedroom speakers! A little Mel Torme', and then some Barry White, and then.....well you know. Very cool!

Thank YOU!!!

Scotty.

Hi Scotty,

Those Valencia's are truly sweeeeet with the BMS drivers replacing the 806A's. I have two pairs of them in our bedroom, and they are really KEEPERS.

I didn't go back to see older pics of the Vals, but they now look like they are sanded and ready for stain or oil. Did you refinish his cabinets?

Glad to help you out with the crossover. Not much I could have done with it anyway.

[SMKSoundPro]

Yes Jack, they are sanded with 320, and ready for Watco oil. Scott didn't want me to do it. He wanted them in his house. I really can't blame him. He knew what he was getting and just could not wait any longer.

I took off the rotted and chewed-up bases off of the cabs, and was prepared to make new ones out solid mahogany.

He was going to set them on the floor. Lisa told him sternly that a vacuum cleaner will find someway to damage the woofer!

If he was clean and sober and cared and was completely honest with me, I would make him some really nice speaker stands, of the right vintage appeal, to place these on, with the right slant, so that those damned wet bottom houseplants slide right off onto the floor!!! (Come on women, use a coaster!!!)

I was able to use a sharp chisel to cut the spotwelds on the xover can, take the pot apart, and steal the center shaft out of the control knob. Then I did the same for Scott's OEM xover. (trying to keep all of the OEM parts together) So Scott's original xovers are now placed on the baffle board for ease of adjustment. I then cut a slot with a hacsaw across the end of the broken-off center shaft of Jack's xover pot control, and reassembled it. It is now a N800 with a screwdriver slot adjustment. Oh and by the way, I also resoldered the pot in the "correct" way. So it is not backwards, anymore.

Jack, Do you need this xover back? I will send asap if needed or wanted! It does work flawlessly.

This has been an amazing journey into the world of mystery and intrigue, as these vals show up are really quite a very good little box. There are some things about them that are done well, and with our 40 years of hindsight, can see some newer products that are an instant upgrade, without breaking the bank.

It would be neat, if some of us could get together to manufacture our own little "ZilchLencia's." I think they would sell quite nicely. I would have liked to hear an 8 ohm version, though. I think it would had a little more punch. Maybe Scott Fitlin's Great Plains Audio 416 -8 new stock might be the ticket. We would have to find a bucket of 811's, though. The crossovers are not tough. Put Zilch on that one with a printed circuit board and components. I can do the woodworking. Storm can be our "spokesmodel!" JohnAec can be our "walter cronkite" authoritative, credible looking and sounding salesman. We would take take all of the glossy photos of the "ZL's" using Jack's granddaughter in the foreground, and a big basket of puppies and kittys all around her, with the caption to read: "The speaker that doesn't get in the way of forming a new life. The bedroom speaker where love happens, and babies are born." Appeal to the wives that these are the newest thing to romance since the battery!

I don't know. We could include viagra with the purchase.


All for now!

Scotty.

[jackgiff]

Jack, Do you need this xover back? I will send asap if needed or wanted! It does work flawlessly.


Scotty.

Thanks, Scotty, but it won't be necessary to return it. If you can't use it, pich it away.

Too bad your friend Scott didn't give you time to fix them properly. But would he have paid you for the extra effort anyway? Maybe turned out just as well.

[diamondsouled]

Phewwwww!!!!!!!!! Took me about 6 hours to look through all 854 posts but I finally made it.

I now feel I have a much better handle on the Valencias, the Model 19s, and their drivers for sure.

Seems I wasn't so far out of line adding a JBL 077 slot radiator and a 3105 crossover to my original Valenicas 32 years ago in 1975.

I will have to do some fine tuning of the crossovers in my new-old Valencias as well as build a proper crossover for the JBL 2404 baby cheeks. I'll probably end up building a new three way from scratch or perhaps try some triamping.

The journey never ends.

Lar

[SMKSoundPro]

Welcome Lar!

You have made it through the saga. Good luck with your VAl's. I know of some great Altec finds here in Alaska. How about in your neck of the great white north?

Scott.

[00Robin]

Welcome Lar!

You have made it through the saga. Good luck with your VAl's. I know of some great Altec finds here in Alaska. How about in your neck of the great white north?

Scott.

Alaska!!!????,crazy. Like through the ports or the long,LONG highway? It still amazes me how things start somewhere and spread out all over and even return home again sometimes. So is Alaska where all the greens are? And does ANYONE ever see the bigger orange ones ever? Curious,I have never heard of them here and only saw them SOMEWHERE in a catalog and I can't even remember when or where,musta been in Wyoming...and what or why are the oranges not so known or did they have a specifc purpose,or just fell out of the pack with time?

[kwingylee]

Phewwwww!!!!!!!!! Took me about 6 hours to look through all 854 posts but I finally made it.

I now feel I have a much better handle on the Valencias, the Model 19s, and their drivers for sure.

Seems I wasn't so far out of line adding a JBL 077 slot radiator and a 3105 crossover to my original Valenicas 32 years ago in 1975.

I will have to do some fine tuning of the crossovers in my new-old Valencias as well as build a proper crossover for the JBL 2404 baby cheeks. I'll probably end up building a new three way from scratch or perhaps try some triamping.

The journey never ends.

Lar

I can't believe I went through this. Thank you to all the contributors...

Wish I had read through all this first.. before I bought a pair of Valencia 846Bs.

I was inspired by a friend, who owned a pair of these and drove them beautifully with Conrad Johnson electronics. I heard the lack of highs and deep bass but they sounded warm, seductive and unlike horns.

His Valencias were highly modified. I thought I get a pair and mod them with his help. Hoping to get the same results.

Then comes Zilchlabs and all of the great research on horn drivers, compensation circuits and so on.... it looked great on paper.

How do the results sound? Any new developments? New drivers? New XOs and compensation circuits? Anything on modifying the bass cabinets? Or has everyone given up..?

[Skywave-Rider]

Although I do not have Valencias, I have 9844-8Bs, I have to chime-in here, just to be able to say I was in on this monumental thread at least once.

In my case, should have completely read this thread before trying to integrate a tweeter or supertweeter into my system. Learned the hard way by making a lot of mistakes.

Long story short, I've got BMS 4552NDs on my 811-B horns running flat to near 20kHz and sounding great. I found with my stock crossover (N-800-F) and another (search "M-19Z") no additional HF compensation is required. The horn is flat relatively on axis with this setup.

Both crossovers have great potential, at least in the 9844s, and eventually a choice will be made between the two. For now I'm on 9844 hiatus. But for sure, BMS has fixed any HF issues.

I'm sure you know, since you read this thread, that Zilch is a patient man and very generous. And inspired.

Thanks for putting up with the likes of me, Z.
:D

[DaveV]

Skywave-Rider. It was a rough trip for me too in adding tweeters to my model 19's with no test equipment but once I finally caught on that most of my problems/confusion was caused by the phase difference between the 802's and EV T-350 tweeters, it was fairly easy.
I kept forgetting that the 802 diaphrams are mounted differently than the diaphrams in the T-350's so they were really out of phase with each other if I used red for + on both.
Once that was resolved I quickly discovered that an xover point of 27KHZ at 6db/octave works for me so I guess that shows that the 802's almost make it but not quite and they need a little reinforcement in their upper range plus a little extension for the Model 19's to sound like a full range speaker to me.
I wanted to try the BMS drivers but I was afraid the character would be different than that of the aluminum diaphram 802's.
Do they sound more or less the same to you or are the the BMS drivers a little softer sounding?


Dave

[Zilch]

Bottom line, I believe we learned a lot about what Valencias actually are, and that's substantially less than what many used to believe them to be.

With that recognition, however, also came a realization that there are many worthwhile paths for those desiring to improve them to pursue.

Whether it's via straightforward biamping with HF compensation or comprehensive swapouts using modern drivers and filters, both Valencias and Altecs more generally have benefited from this work.

I suppose there are those who may have given up, but that's certainly none of us.... :thmbsup:

[kwingylee]

Skywave-Rider. It was a rough trip for me too in adding tweeters to my model 19's with no test equipment but once I finally caught on that most of my problems/confusion was caused by the phase difference between the 802's and EV T-350 tweeters, it was fairly easy.
.......
I wanted to try the BMS drivers but I was afraid the character would be different than that of the aluminum diaphram 802's.
Do they sound more or less the same to you or are the the BMS drivers a little softer sounding?


Dave

Dave:

You took the concerns right out of my mouth. Does the BMS "upgrade" alter the essential character of the Valencias that many found attractive?

What about the horn damping,cap swapping,.. and the other so call tweaks etc...? Do they still matter in light of the comprehensive work performed by Zilch and others?

What about the bass bottoms?

It would be great to hear from long term Val owners who performed the upgrade. Do they still like their Valencias.... in the same way.

Or I should just sell the 846Bs that I just bought.

:biting:

[DaveV]

I don't want to pretend to be an Altec expert but I can tell you things based on my own experience with them.
I had Flamencos and there were no highs to speak of but PLENTY of forward mids and sort of OK bass.
Turning up the 806's to get more highs wasn't an option because the mids also came up to the point of being very harsh and hornlike and I don't like equalizers.
I had the EV tweeters on the Flamencos crossed over at around 8KHZ at 6db/ocave BUT the phase thing didn't dawn on me then and the tweeter addition was never quite right but because the listening room was the living room with wall to wall carpet, drapes and stuffed furniture the cancellation and overbright was somewhat obscured and/or tamed but I had my missing highs.
When I moved, the Flamencos went into a live small room and the ugly problems of boom boom bass and ear bleed upper mids(overlap) and highs with the added tweeters showed up.
My Flamencos had the "port" around the 811 opening in the baffle so the tuning was poor and rather than screw around with bigger boxes and tuning I felt that the 19's with bigger boxes and 416B woofers would give me the bass I wanted.
So that and based on what I had read about the Model 19's I snagged a pair on E-Bay that was close enough to pick up because they are rare down here in the south.
The lack of highs for my taste was no surprise to me so that wasn't a problem and the tamed midrange via the xover network EQ was a lot more natural sounding to me than the Flamenco mids were although not as engaging at first.
The 19's bass is really tuned too high BUT it works well for me in my small room with no boom boom and I don't need bass boost like I did with the Flamencos.
Tampering with the tuning could extend the bass downward but it could also make the 19's sound like there's less bass bacause of the shift in response humps so I'll leave good enough alone.
I guess you have some choices with your Valencias but to me the biggest improvement would be changing the 806's to the BMS drivers if they have about the same character as the 806's.
Adding a tweeter to what you have is more complicated because the 806's drop of faster then the 802-Gs so the "blend" factor is more of an issue than I had by crossing over so high on the 19's.
Plus I didn't alter the 19 xovers to add the tweeters.
The horn ring problem may be an issue but I never felt a need to deal with that on the Flamencos or the 19's.
It's always good to shoot for what's right on paper BUT sometimes you have to trust your ears because your the one that has to be happy with the sonics of your system. Not me or anyone else.
I'm sure lots of Altec fans would think my system sounds too bright with the added tweeters but for me they are a must because I know what I'm not hearing from my favorite LP's without them.
I would like to see a thread started by people that have changed out the 806 drivers for the BMS drivers to see what the sonic results were.

[Skywave-Rider]

...Once that was resolved I quickly discovered that an xover point of 27KHZ at 6db/octave works for me so I guess that shows that the 802's almost make it but not quite and they need a little reinforcement in their upper range plus a little extension for the Model 19's to sound like a full range speaker to me.
I wanted to try the BMS drivers but I was afraid the character would be different than that of the aluminum diaphram 802's.
Do they sound more or less the same to you or are the the BMS drivers a little softer sounding?


Dave


Hi Dave.
I assume you mean 7kHz as a mid to high x-over point...?

I tried T-35s (K-77s) and had serious comb filter issues and imaging problems. I also tried the Eminence APT50 which unlike the T-35, gave extended HF but I was never able to resolve comb filter problems. I did employ RTA supplementing my ears to determine polarity of the drivers.

About the sound of the BMS:
I did fairly complete listening evaluations comparing the original Altec 902 driver and the BMS on both N-800F and M-19Z crossovers with/without woofers in 2.5 mode. (9844-8-Bs have dual 414 woofers.)

I won't reiterate but I will say this:
I can appreciate and enjoy the characteristics of any good vintage system regardless of its flaws. Extreme example: There's a store a few blocks away which sells Edison cylinders and players and I love to hear those old horns. They're beautiful on many levels.

I'm willing to bet you feel likewise.

So I can listen to my 902s (no comparison to Edison cylinders, LOL), which extend to 20kHz, btw, and appreciate what they do, but in my case I'm always aware of the severe undulations in response throughout the HF. The 802s, from the charts I've seen, do the same thing, but not ultimately through to 20kHz.

Roller coaster HF may be part of the Altec sound. Not sure. For me a lush midrange is as well, and I think the BMS drivers compliment that nicely.

I will add that with BMS 4552NDs mounted in that system, one can hear what the 811-B horn actually does with a flat driver connected to it.

Perhaps your concerns center on the diaphragm type, i.e. mylar vs. aluminum.

I can only compare the 902/4552. Down the line I would like to get some JBL al or ti drivers in there for comparison -- always looking for cheap 2420s.:)

My latest measurements here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=207967&postcount=186
Listening evaluations begin around here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208085&postcount=189
Zilch receives my 902s and measures them beginning here:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208995&postcount=206
(additional measurements by Zilch and nice waterfall plots are found in subsequent posts.)
Zilch interprets and explains my evaluation/measurements:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=208632&postcount=200

[DaveV]

No Skywave-Rider. I do mean 27KHZ.
The 8 ohm tweeters are added with just a .68 cap in series with them and they are connected to the same 8 ohm amp taps that the Model 19's are connected to as in a bi-wire, not bi-amp configuration.
I did not roll off the 802's with an inductor but the so called HF control on the 19's is set to just before the "normal" zone and that setup works well for me.
That's why I said the 802G's almost do it but not quite. Apparently the 6db/octave tweeter xover at that high xover frequency allows for a non offensive overlap of the upper 802 response and also adds some extended or more of a flat HF response.
I understand the HF controls aren't really mid/HF level controls but they apparently do change the point where the bypass cap on the xover resistors
EQ the 802's.
The 802's and 902's may go out to 20KHZ but they aren't flat out to at least 16KHZ and that's the real problem isn't it?
I have two Edison Cylinder machines and lots of cylinders but I prefer to jump about 55 years to tube electronics, PM speakers and LP's for serious listening.
T35's or the Altec 3000 tweeters I have don't do the job. They get lost but the T-350's are more efficient.

[Skywave-Rider]

Hi Dave,
Sorry, I see I misread ur post and see u said T-350s, not T-35s. I know those are superior to the T-35s, but I have no experience with them.

Well, if running them in at 6dB per octave straight from the amp works with a 27kHz point, cool. I'd like to know how you have those mounted -- and oriented? That's probably critical and I'd like to see how you've done that. Any pics?:)

If you have RTA of your rig, that would be cool to see as well.

[VTUBE6]

Hello Gents,
It's been a while since my last post. We'll still own my speakers, but have moved them out of my listening room (two channel) and into my home theater. The speakers were too imposing in my listening room, they really need space. So....my plan is to get another pair (plus), tweak them as before and then have a horn speaker home theater. I have to admit, just having them as my front L/R speakers, I have been startled many times by the sheer speed and attack the present on some soundtracks. I can only imagine what it would sound like as a total surround package. If/when I find another speaker or pair I'll put the center channel within a custom built cabinet which will house the speaker plus electronics, media, etc. I have a two ALON Thunderbolt subs hooked up as well, so my low end is fast, articulate and deep. This should be fun! :D

[kwingylee]

Hello Gents,
It's been a while since my last post. We'll still own my speakers, but have moved them out of my listening room (two channel) and into my home theater. The speakers were too imposing in my listening room, they really need space. So....my plan is to get another pair (plus), tweak them as before and then have a horn speaker home theater. I have to admit, just having them as my front L/R speakers, I have been startled many times by the sheer speed and attack the present on some soundtracks. I can only imagine what it would sound like as a total surround package. If/when I find another speaker or pair I'll put the center channel within a custom built cabinet which will house the speaker plus electronics, media, etc. I have a two ALON Thunderbolt subs hooked up as well, so my low end is fast, articulate and deep. This should be fun! :D

VTUBE6:

What changes have u done?
Last post said you added RAVEN tweeter and swapped stock caps for Solens. Is that it? Did you do the Zilchlab change?

[DaveV]

Skywave,
Now that the system sounds OK to me I've neglected to do refinements and I just relax and listen to music like I always wanted to but never could because I was always listening to the speakers/electronics and faulting something.
One of those refinements being tweeter mounting and positioning.
I did find that the tweeters being propped up a bit and placed midway on top of the 19's sounds OK to me like they are integrated into the 802/811 very well. I can't tell what's coming from where unless I put my ear in front of the T-350's.
I don't hear an obvious overlap in any range or any blend problems.
If I remove the tweeters I miss hearing things I know are on my favorite LP's. That's mostly the more subtle things like brushes on cymbals but in general everything in the upper range sounds better to me and just a lot more detailed.
I don't have any test equipment that would plot a curve of what I'm listening too but running a frequency sweep sounds as if the speakers are fairly flat to my ears in my room.
When I have some disposable income I do want to try the BMS drivers just to see what they sound like and if I can be happy with them in a two way system.
The only pic I have handy right now is on a foreign website and the link is below. If you get popup's about loading a foreign language program just keep clicking on cancel because the website is in English so look for owners systems then Dave V.
The room is small but the 19's sound fine to me in there and I wonder why so many people think you can't put big speakers in small rooms.
The only drawback is that the best "sweet spot" is confined to a small area in that near field situation.
I worked for RT Bozak and three high end audio companies so I'm not a total hack but I don't listen by specs or graphs either.
I've seen specs that were almost ideal yet the speaker or equipment sounded like $hit so I'm over the spec issue and more into pleasing my own ears.
I've owned quite a few speakers of different types and was involved with some that sold for $55,000 a pair but so far the Model 19's with the added tweeters please me the most overall for all kinds of music. Dynamics are evrything to me.
One might argue that I've just created an upper mid/high shelf with the added tweeter but since the 802G's seem to drop off at around 11KHZ then isn't some boost or reinforcement needed?

[DaveV]

The missing link. LOL http://www.ys-audio.com/ys-audio_eng.htm

[Skywave-Rider]

Dave,
No link visible in your post. Edit it in if you get a chance.

I did some diligent searching and read in a different thread that u had the EVs oriented to the rear of the cab; you've moved them up presumably for alignment issues.

If you do give alternative drivers a try a post your thoughts.
:)

[kwingylee]

The missing link. LOL http://www.ys-audio.com/ys-audio_eng.htm

DaveV:

Very very very nice vintage system. I love your collection of TD124s....

[Skywave-Rider]

I see it now. Nice setup.

I think the ceiling angle above the 19s must help refract ceiling bounce behind your head?

Is your open reel a Revox? It reminds me of an old Akai 1/4 track I learned to edit on.

[DaveV]

The pictures on the website are just the tip of the iceberg as far as speakers and other equipment goes. There's two closets full of stuff too but obviously my sonic favorites are out and in use.

The tape deck is a Tandberg 64X 1/4 track but the original caps are tired and they crackle some during use. Yet another project!

The ceiling angle is not a problem for me. I listen from a small sofa across from the speakers that's placed in the middle of the two 19's so the "sweet spot" is in the center of the sofa but somewhat adjustable by the toe in of the 19's and or the tweeters.

Right now I have it so the sweet spot (via toe ins) is on axis if you know what I mean.

If I crank the volume up more than necessary I can get an annoying bounce off the wall behind me but the 19's in that small room make for a huge wall of sound and high volume levels aren't required to get a live performance level most of the time. I don't listen to 70-80's hard rock stuff so a 130db live level isn't the norm.

Original jazz recordings (LP's) like The Ahmad Jamal Trio, Lennie Tristano, Miles Davis, Scott Hamilton, Mel Torme, etc sound awesome on the 19's but not as real sounding to me without the added tweeters.
But I do like a more in your face sound as long as it's clean and smooth.

Just too bad it took some 40 odd years to get a system together that makes me happy so I can listen to the music rather then the equipment. The 19's were really the big improvement that ended my search. ( I hope. LOL)

All the Mac stuff was rebuilt with NON AUDIOPHILE parts and the 19's have new inexpensive metallized polyprops in the xovers so there's nothing special here. Just the right combo of stuff tweaked to my taste via caps and tubes.

[spartanmanor]

Just curious, what happened to the other 57 pages of this very informative thread? They are all gone now.

[louped garouv]

i am seeing all of the content....

:blink:

[hjames]

Just curious, what happened to the other 57 pages of this very informative thread? They are all gone now.

Hiya neighbor!

I took a look and got to page 51, then page 55 just fine ...
don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but it seems to work ...:o:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14690&page=59

[spartanmanor]

I changed my viewing display mode to linear and am now getting them all. I was only getting two pages earlier which was very frustrating.

[spartanmanor]

So this is an old thread and it has been a long time since I read all the pages. I do not remember seeing if anyone tried running the BMS drivers active and if so does any other compensation need to be applied?

[Zilch]

So this is an old thread and it has been a long time since I read all the pages. I do not remember seeing if anyone tried running the BMS drivers active and if so does any other compensation need to be applied?Yes. The generic HF comp in Behringer CX-3400 is too 'Hot" for BMS, however, and that's likely the case for other active crossovers with fixed HF comp, as well.

Subsequent to this thread, I did more using the Altec "Bridged-T" filter, most of which is posted over on AudioKarma. I came back here to work with Skywave-rider and his 9844-8Bs, so there's additional info in that thread, including a Model 19 highpass mod that seems to work well. and a follow-up evaluation of Altec 902-8B drivers. Skywave has continued that work, so you might PM him regarding his latest findings....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18913

[spartanmanor]

Thanks Zilch, that is what I figured. I will read on with the updated info.