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View Full Version : The original Westlake / Sierra / Eastlake monitor



lfh
02-16-2007, 04:28 PM
Here it is -- the mother of all big Westies:

lfh
02-16-2007, 04:34 PM
Here's some info about the monitor on Tom Hidley's home page:

http://www.rast.com/pageHidley.php?16

I found the above pic here, where one can get more glimpses of it:

http://www.michaelallsup.com/17ch_5.htm
http://www.michaelallsup.com/17ch_7.htm

Fredrik

lfh
02-16-2007, 04:42 PM
Seems they are no longer in use (I wonder who has them now?):

http://www.recordplant.com/

At least they've been replaced by custom monitors designed by "our" George Augspurger (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/our-thanks/contacts.htm#augspurger). :)

lfh
02-16-2007, 04:56 PM
For reference (I've posted those links before), here are other examples of early Westies (or, actually, Easties :) ):

Studio Bohus, Gothenburg 1977:

http://www.bohussound.com/egna_bilder/history1.jpg

Polar Studios, Stockholm 1978:

http://www.raffem.com/images/Abba5/studios7studioa.jpg
http://www.raffem.com/images/Abba5/studios11studiob.jpg

lfh
02-16-2007, 05:09 PM
The pic in my first post was probably taken in 1973 (judging from the text on the site).

merlin
02-16-2007, 05:14 PM
That shirt was 72 - I'm sure of that.

X_X
02-16-2007, 05:21 PM
The pic in my first post was probably taken in 1973 (judging from the text on the site).

I'd say that seems about right (judging from the guy's shirt!):p

Thanks for sharing this; It makes me wish studios never left the big monitor days. Looks like some big monitors are making a comeback- the success of Dynaudio, Dunlavy, etc...oh, and Westlake.

Nathan.

EDIT- Damn, Merlin. You beat me to the punchline! lol.

EDIT (2X)- I will share another mother of Westies:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kerr.glenroslin/mompups.jpg

lfh
02-16-2007, 05:26 PM
:rotfl:

More on the Record Plant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_Plant

glen
03-03-2007, 11:29 PM
Sweeet,
I finally figured out that there was a 1 inch driver behind the tiny horn(?) positioned under the big wooden Smith horn (for years I thought these were just 2-way systems)
Does anyone know exactly what that really short 1 inch horn/throat is?
Was there ever a set of plans available for these monitors?

John
03-04-2007, 01:47 AM
Anyone know what year those were produced???:hmm:

Titanium Dome
03-04-2007, 08:34 AM
OK, Ken P., where are you?

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2007, 10:45 AM
OK, Ken P., where are you?

Those are very early model's. I have no idea what circa. They look very similar to the mains we used at Century 21 Studios in Winnipeg (1976-1977)

As Glenn Phoenix pointed out, these are all custom made to the clients preferences. I find it interesting that many engineers picked Gauss/Cetec drivers over the standard JBL. I have not seen any Gauss compression drivers but several pair using 15's and 10's. I have never heard a pair of Cetec 15's but out of curiosity would like to.

Ken

John
03-06-2007, 11:19 AM
Hi Ken I have heard the Gauss-Cedec 15's in some 4350,s and they kicked ass:applaud: Nothing was missing;)

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2007, 11:35 AM
Hi Ken I have heard the Gauss-Cedec 15's in some 4350,s and they kicked ass:applaud: Nothing was missing;)

Interesting, I understand it was a scenior exec from JBL that help start Gauss-Cetec.

Ken

scott fitlin
03-06-2007, 11:41 AM
Gauss woofers KICKED, and sounded great. Many guys loved em, their 18,s moved alot of air. Gauss was a bit of a different sound than JBL bass, but, very visceral, really THUMPED ( long excursion ), as opposed to JBL being TIGHT and PUNCHY! The extreme bottom end really roared through Gauss woofers and the transient attack of low end notes was SCARY. We had both JBL and Gauss in my place, and at the same time,. and I loved both. Gauss is a company I wish was still around.

The Gauss compression drivers were also liked by many, the Gauss HF-4000 was said to be sweeter sounding than the JBL 2440/2441. I used to hear the Gauss midrange at a very famous nightclub, The Paradise Garage, and they were in fact really good. Better than JBL? Dont know about that, but they were good. The diaphragm of the Gauss driver was the same type of half roll aluminum surround as the JBL 2440, and had the higher pitch tonality, actually very similar to the 2440.

Then, there was the Gauss Big Tweet. We had these in a club I worked at, really nice, and sparkly top end, but, they were too easy to blow.

It was Edmond May who went over to Gauss in the 70,s and designed their woofers.

Ian Mackenzie
03-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Scotty,

Well put.

Years and I mean years ago I went to a JBL distributor over here call The Music factory for some drivers and he impressed upon me what you descibed about Gauss.

They were also used for woofers exclusively in the Reflection Arts Monitor System over in the U.K. But in those systems the JBL 2121/2123 was the only choice on the mids while they offered Emilar/Coral compression drivers. We also know Eminence provided drivers for some of the Urie systems and we see Tad used selectively in some systems.

I think its well known in the industry there were/ are plenty more robust drivers around than JBL but few had the same expressive finesse qualities, some more so and some less so. Its a matter of taste, application and budget.

Frankly I find this type of discussion more useful and valuable than what has become "JBL Talk". Those who close their eyes to whatever else was and is around can never claim to fully appreciate what a JBL driver is really about.

scott fitlin
03-06-2007, 02:01 PM
Well, in my system it was always a combination of brands to create the one final " whole " sound.

To be very honest with you, the BEST sounding systems, the ones "I" thought were the best, were NEVER one brand of speakers exclusively.

Many designers ( club systems ) used various elements from various manufacturers, things that they liked the best for that particular range.

I love JBL 18,s but I also loved Gauss 18,s.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2007, 02:04 PM
Scotty,

Frankly I find this type of discussion more useful and valuable than what has become "JBL Talk". Those who close their eyes to whatever else was and is around can never claim to fully appreciate what a JBL driver is really about.

Now, thats well put.

Ken

John
03-06-2007, 02:05 PM
Here's a pair that are in a Studio in Tulsa,

Ian Mackenzie
03-06-2007, 03:03 PM
Well, in my system it was always a combination of brands to create the one final " whole " sound.

To be very honest with you, the BEST sounding systems, the ones "I" thought were the best, were NEVER one brand of speakers exclusively.

Many designers ( club systems ) used various elements from various manufacturers, things that they liked the best for that particular range.

I love JBL 18,s but I also loved Gauss 18,s.

I hope you don't mind me saying so but your a bit of a slut. In the nicest possible way of course.:D

scott fitlin
03-06-2007, 03:06 PM
I hope you don't mind me saying so but your a bit of a slut. In the nicest possible way of course.:DYeah, I know, but here in NYC there are just so many different types of women, err, I meant speakers, I just had to know about all of them!

:coolness:

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2007, 03:08 PM
Here's a pair that are in a Studio in Tulsa,

Thats eye opening. Those horns are identical to mine. I find it interesting that the design has not changed in all those years. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Ken

UreiCollector
03-06-2007, 04:01 PM
Here's a pair that are in a Studio in Tulsa,

Is it just me, or did someone 'f' with the horns on those 4435s? It's just the "perfectionist" in me speaking. :applaud:

John
03-06-2007, 05:54 PM
Well the Studio was using the 4435's on there side so that is the reason for the horns being rotated.;)

The Westlakes were originally from Oral Roberts University in Tulsa OK. And were sold off when they did some upgrading to their studios.
When I spoke to Steve Ripley the owner of The Church Studio in Tulsa OK. he told me the 4435's became speaker stands after they purchased the Westlake's:D

Steve has been around for a while and has worked with Leon Russell,
JJ Cale, James Burton, Bob Dylan, And many other's:applaud:

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2007, 06:08 PM
he told me the 4435's became speaker stands after they purchased the Westlake's:D



That's harsh, but speaks volumes.
:blah: :blah: :blah:

:D Ken

Titanium Dome
03-06-2007, 07:38 PM
Well, you gotta do something with that much wood.

ralphs99
03-06-2007, 09:45 PM
Hi Glen,

Thanks for the lovely pics!

The 'horn' on the 2420 compession driver is not really a horn at all but just a diffraction device. It's just a piece of ~1/4" metal with a 1" hole on one side to mate with the driver throat and a 3/4" hole on the other side. That's it! I've no idea of the actual dispersion characteristics.

The only Westlakes I've heard were all JBL; 2231A's, 2440's & 2420's back from around 1978. Loved the bottom end, but the Westlake horns always seemed to have very vague localisation and a poor sound stage.

Cheers, Ralph

Ian Mackenzie
03-07-2007, 04:30 AM
Yeah well there not for near field monitoring in front of the Barbie are they.

Speaking of which I compared the LRS32 to the LSR4328 recently.
http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/LSR4300/lsr4328P.html.

The main monitors (which will remain nameless but were large with two 15 inch woofers) made the LSR32's sound like squeeze boxes. The near field presentation of the 4328's was cleaner and more together imho. I was told later the local JBL rep reackoned the 4328's were designed to sound good in showrooms so engineers would buy them for their pet projects. A marketing thing apparently. The engineer kept telling me the LRS32's were flat. I think they were dead flat. Go figure.

sa660
03-07-2007, 05:42 AM
Help,

Can you please guess the drivers used in these cabinets?



http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=23243&stc=1&d=1172593052 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14927&highlight=westlake)
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14927&highlight=westlake)/showthread.php?t=14927&highlight=westlake (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14927&highlight=westlake)

scott fitlin
03-07-2007, 09:20 AM
Those look like Gauss woofers.

Gauss were good, but, if you blow one, where are you going to find original parts? Youll be doing this >>> :banghead:

John
03-07-2007, 12:19 PM
Those look like Gauss woofers.

Gauss were good, but, if you blow one, where are you going to find original parts? Youll be doing this >>> :banghead:

I say Gauss as well.

I would not be worried about blowing them up, If these are in your home?


Unless you are using Flame Linear's for power, then maybe:blink:

sa660
03-07-2007, 02:44 PM
What would be you feeling on the design/origin of these loudspeakers. The step for the horn looks like if it is damaging the tweeter dispersion!!!

glen
03-07-2007, 02:57 PM
Hi Glen,
The 'horn' on the 2420 compession driver is not really a horn at all but just a diffraction device. It's just a piece of ~1/4" metal with a 1" hole on one side to mate with the driver throat and a 3/4" hole on the other side. That's it! I've no idea of the actual dispersion characteristics.
Cheers, Ralph
Thanks for the info Ralph!
What you describe with the 1/4" plate mounted directly to the driver looks practical in the case of the blue-face Westlake in Tuscon that John sent in. That has an inner set of bolts that the driver is mounted to and an outer set of bolts attaching the plate to the baffle. But it would seem that on the very early monitors, where the plate is barely larger than the mounting plates, the baffle must be inbetween the the plate and the driver???
In the third picture I sent in the 2420 doesn't seem to have any support other than the baffle it's attached to??
If you can clarify, or post a quick and dirty sketch I'd appreciate it.
Thanks again for your explanation

glen
03-07-2007, 03:02 PM
They look very similar to the mains we used at Century 21 Studios in Winnipeg (1976-1977)
Ken
Hi Ken,
Were you guys bi-amping (or tri-amping) these back then?
What kind of power amps/crossovers were you using?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge,
Glen

scott fitlin
03-07-2007, 03:14 PM
What would be you feeling on the design/origin of these loudspeakers. The step for the horn looks like if it is damaging the tweeter dispersion!!!That I dont know. You would need an answer from Widget, Giskard, Ian, Zilch, or someone else that really understands the cabinet, and layout on baffle board and how the various drivers/horns interact with each other.

My guess is they put the tweeter where they did, because these speakers were to be soffit mounted, or hung overhead, and this way you got good on axis tweeter response in the listening position, but, this is just a guess.

John
03-07-2007, 07:58 PM
That I dont know. You would need an answer from Widget, Giskard, Ian, Zilch, or someone else that really understands the cabinet, and layout on baffle board and how the various drivers/horns interact with each other.

My guess is they put the tweeter where they did, because these speakers were to be soffit mounted, or hung overhead, and this way you got good on axis tweeter response in the listening position, but, this is just a guess.


Hey that was my guess:thnkfast:

Ken Pachkowsky
03-07-2007, 08:48 PM
Hi Ken,
Were you guys bi-amping (or tri-amping) these back then?
What kind of power amps/crossovers were you using?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge,
Glen

They used a Westlake designed combination active 2 way and passive for the 3-way system. We used Luxman M series amps in both control rooms. As I recall they were M4000's and M2000's. Does that sound right? They were Luxman's for sure. They sounded great.

Ken

John
03-07-2007, 11:42 PM
That's harsh, but speaks volumes.
:blah: :blah: :blah:

:D Ken


I should add that before they had the 4435,s they were using the 4350,s and while the 4435's had a refined sound it was not the same as having the power of the 4350's. When they fired up the Westlakes it brought back the punch of the 4350's , and with those sweet mids spilling out of the large format driver coupled to the Westlake Walnut Horn!!! Well that's when the 4435,s became westlake stands. The 4435,s have since been sold, gone to europe. :blah: :blah: :blah:

Ken Pachkowsky
03-07-2007, 11:56 PM
I should add that before they had the 4435,s they were using the 4350,s and while the 4435's had a refined sound it was not the same as having the power of the 4350's. When they fired up the Westlakes it brought back the punch of the 4350's , and with those sweet mids spilling out of the large format driver coupled to the Westlake Walnut Horn!!! Well that's when the 4435,s became westlake stands. The 4435,s have since been sold, gone to europe. :blah: :blah: :blah:

Just having some fun and spewing :bs: :) .

Be well

PS: When are we going to see your clones?

Ken

glen
03-08-2007, 12:56 AM
The only Westlakes I've heard were all JBL; 2231A's, 2440's & 2420's back from around 1978. Loved the bottom end, but the Westlake horns always seemed to have very vague localisation and a poor sound stage.
Cheers, Ralph
Hi Ralph,
Did the ones you heard have the horns on top or on bottom?
John Storyk, designer of Electric Ladyland and Bearsville studios was talking about the installation of Westlakes at Bearsville in this article:
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_john_storyk_thirty/

What did you have to choose from in terms of monitors at the time?

Not much. The decision at Bearsville was not mine, but we used the state-of-the-art Westlakes with the big horns. But I was one of the first to mount them upside down, with the big horns on the top. People thought it was because it made it look like a little bear logo, but the reason was to get the high-frequency driver lower to get rid of reflections off the console. That was a very intentional move and helped get a better imaging focus. But Westlake was one of the three or four good off-the-shelf speakers we could choose from in those days.

Upside-down Westlake looking "bearish":

scott fitlin
03-08-2007, 07:34 AM
Hey that was my guess:thnkfast:Umm, great minds think alike!

I just type faster. :D

:moon:

lfh
03-08-2007, 02:58 PM
Look what I found (Electric Lady Studios). Thanks for this new search strategy ;) Perhaps this is a very early (c:a 1970) specimen? Maybe the original design was a 2x15"+2" (and someone added 075:s later to the monitors shown in the first post of this thread)? (I'm still looking for the answer to these questions (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82415&postcount=13)...and these (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82273&postcount=12) ;) )

ralphs99
03-08-2007, 07:32 PM
Hi Glen,
I can see where you're coming from. I can't see a way of mounting the diffraction plate to the driver as per the interior photo either. I wish I could remember how this was done. It's just a bit too long ago! I'll have a look on the weekend and see if I have a sketch at home somewhere.

I've only heard the big Westlakes in 2 studios and in both cases they were mounted right way up.John Storyk's comments are interesting and may explain my perceptions of the poor imaging from the Westlakes.
Cheers, Ralph

Ian Mackenzie
03-09-2007, 01:40 AM
From that last image it would appear the loading device was removed and it was a non std mod.

What is interesting is they did not run with the 2405 or other bullet devices? Regardless it was crude. One can only imagine it was an ultra HF enhancement.

lfh
03-16-2007, 02:52 PM
January Sound Studios in Dallas (http://www.januarysound.com/)

lfh
04-24-2007, 03:51 PM
Utopia (http://www.auroraaudio.net/aa_html/neve_gallery/NeveConsoles/utopias_console.html) (I think this was Pink Floyds private studio, and the console a predecessor to the famous Neve 8078. Does anyone know for sure?) BTW, note the stone diffusor-wall close to the mains. Studio design has progressed quite a bit since those days -- at least w r t acoustics...

lfh
04-24-2007, 04:01 PM
Now we're talking the 80:s so this pair might not really qualify for this thread. Here goes anyway:

Paisley Park Studios (http://www.paisleyparkstudios.com/ppvr/PPVR.html) (Prince's (or whatever he's called nowadays) studio)

Click on image 04 to see nice custom Westies used as monitors in the tracking room (direct link (http://www.paisleyparkstudios.com/ppvr/vr.asp?id=16)).

lfh
04-26-2007, 04:01 PM
The control room of Mountain Studios (http://www.mountainstudios.com/), designed in 1975 by Westlake Audio / Tom Hidley, sporting quadraphonic monitoring, seems to be still in use more or less unmodified:

michaelg
06-01-2007, 05:40 PM
We used Luxman M series amps in both control rooms. As I recall they were M4000's and M2000's. Does that sound right?Studio B was a Luxman driving (I don't remember) but Studio A had Altec passive third-octave EQ and electronic crossovers feeding industrial-series Crown amplifiers driving the Westlakes. I helped install the gear and was there when Hidley tuned them.

glen
06-01-2007, 06:10 PM
Studio B was a Luxman driving (I don't remember) but Studio A had Altec passive third-octave EQ and electronic crossovers feeding industrial-series Crown amplifiers driving the Westlakes. I helped install the gear and was there when Hidley tuned them.

So the Luxman's may have been a later addition, interesting!

Was the crossover custom-made or an "off the shelf" item?

Would those Crowns have been the DC300, PSA2 or newer MacroTech versions (MA5002VZ?)?
Any of these look familiar?

michaelg
06-02-2007, 02:08 AM
Was the crossover custom-made or an "off the shelf" item?As I recall it was off the shelf.
Would those Crowns have been the DC300, PSA2 or newer MacroTech versions?Probably the D150. This was 35 years ago!! :eek:

I think I have some photos .. I'll see what I can find and post them.

Ken Pachkowsky
06-02-2007, 08:59 AM
As I recall it was off the shelf.Probably the D150. This was 35 years ago!! :eek:

I think I have some photos .. I'll see what I can find and post them.

Hi Michael

Would love to see some photo's of Century 21 Studio A. To this day, it's the only Electrodyne I have ever seen other than the Olive at Cariboo Ranch. Thanks for the clarification on the amp configuration. I do remember John Hildebrand having a guy from Oakwood install a pair of Luxman amps in Studio A in late 77 or 78. I can remember John Smith, Marc La France and I giving them a listening test. I could be mistaken but would bet on it.

Your name sure rings a bell? Did we meet back in the 70's in or around Winnipeg? I am sure we have met?

Ken

michaelg
06-03-2007, 12:41 AM
it's the only Electrodyne I have ever seen other than the Olive at Cariboo Ranch.OK. Now I'm officially confused. What does "Electrodyne" have to do with "Olive" or the Caribou Ranch studio? I certainly remember the Electrodyne at Century and am very familiar with Olive and Caribou Ranch as it was created by a good friend of mine, Wayne Jones.
Your name sure rings a bell? Did we meet back in the 70's in or around Winnipeg? I am sure we have met?Oh, that's quite likely ... Winnipeg is not a large place when it comes to audio. Your name, too, is familiar but, as is the case with virtually all of the other Winnipeg names I have seen on this board, I do not remember. I had a stroke three years ago and my memory still has some significant holes in it :o:. I can remember my phone number from 50 years ago but don't know if I had lunch today!!$%^&*(

I don't know where we might have crossed. I have been very heavily involved in many, many aspects of music, broadcast, recording, computers, flying, etc. and may have bumped into you in one of a million places! It could even be at one of hundreds of Comdex, NAB, NAMM, AES, NRBA, CAB, WABE, CES, ACM, IEEE, etc., etc. conferences.

I'll start ... here's my abbreviated bio ... hopefully something here will sound familiar. You tell me where we know each other from! :D
I went to high school in Fort Garry and did Computer Science at U of M (1969);
I managed the Griffins, started and managed the Sugar & Spice and Love Cyrcle; I recorded the Sugar & Spice's first record with Randy Bachman and Love Cyrcle was Century 21 Studio's first customer on King Edward St;
I was the Chief Engineer of CKY AM/FM. I designed and built the encoding equipment for the world's first "surround sound" FM broadcast (CKY-FM) in conjunction with Pioneer from the "HiFi Show" at the Fort Garry Hotel in the early 70s. I designed and built the first radio multitrack studios in Canada for Moffat Broadcasting when I moved CKY to Polo Park from Main Street; I designed and installed the "110 Grandson" consoles built for us by Auditronics in Memphis and designed and built the monitor amplifiers which later led to the creation of Orange County Electronics;
I designed, renovated or installed over 30 AM, FM, TV stations and recording studios in western Canada; the four last all being in Winnipeg ... CKND-TV, CJUM-FM, CKJS-AM and Finucan Recording Studios (I was a minority shareholder in Finucans for many years).
I founded the company and designed all the professional audio signal processing and monitoring equipment manufactured by Orange County in Winnipeg and marketed through our offices in San Francisco and Minneapolis; we sold thousands of units to all the major networks and labels and everyone from the FBI to NHK Japan to Vatican Radio; our "Stressor" product was fundamental to the "disco sound" :o:; Our processors were standard issue with all Solid State Logic (UK) consoles and all "beautiful music" FM stations; We also private-labeled our products for RCA and Philips;
Under contract, I designed the "Laboratory Series" monitors for RW Oliver Electronics using handmade drivers provided by Foster ("Fostex") in Japan; I founded Interlake Audio with Bob Oliver and Ted Telesky and introduced the Fostex monitors as well as their electro-acoustic drivers, microphones, headsets and monitor amplifiers to the North American pro-audio market; two years later, we created the semi-pro "Personal Multitrack" division and introduced the multitrack tape recorders and mixers;
In 1981 I opened one of Winnipeg's very first computer retailers ("Qwerty Datasystems" located in the Convention Centre) specializing in Victor 9000 / Sirius I microcomputers and vertical application software;
Through my consulting company ("Gray Research Group") we developed multi-user, multi-tasking operating systems with Digital Research (Concurrent CP/M86, Concurrent DOS, DR-DOS, DR-Multiuser DOS, Flex68K); through Prism Research, we created a very successful database engine known under various names (VP-Info, SR-Info, Prism Procedural Language, etc.) still in use at over 50,000 pharmacies in the USA;
We also developed and briefly manufactured a family of PS/2 compatible microcomputers under the Prism label out of our California office;
I retired at 45 in 1994 and as a volunteer, I became the "Johnny Appleseed" of the early internet ("FreeNet") and, as President of Telecommunities Canada (http://www.tc.ca/), succeeded in getting 1,500 Canadian communities connected to the internet; I was honoured by the Manitoba government with an "Award of Excellence for Sustainable Development" and received the Canadian "Internet Man of the Year" award for my efforts;
I bought an airplane (http://www.grumman.net/cgrcc) and took up flying for recreation in 1996; I flew for several years as part of the Flying Colors Precision Flight Team (http://www.flying-colors.org/fcpft.html) and in 1999, I opened Canada newest and fastest-growing flight school, Flying Colors Pilot Training (http://www.flying-colors.org/wings2003.html), at Winnipeg International Airport. We survived 911 and continued to build the business and trained over 1,300 pilots. But in February 2004 I suffered a stroke and, having been told to put my affairs in order, I sold my fleet of aircraft and closed my business. That was very unfortunate as I proved my doctors wrong and survived!
I am still in slow recovery and, while working to get my aviation medical back, I am designing home theatres, building and restoring a collection of vintage Ampex tape machines and building a 16-track analog studio for my musician son.

johnaec
06-03-2007, 09:27 AM
I bought an airplane (http://www.grumman.net/cgrcc) and took up flying for recreation in 1996I see I'm not the only pilot around here - I imagine there are a few more. I began flying in 1976 - owning a plane is still one of my dreams... (and people think the JBL hobby is expensive!!).

John

Ken Pachkowsky
06-03-2007, 10:07 AM
OK. Now I'm officially confused. What does "Electrodyne" have to do with "Olive" or the Caribou Ranch studio?

Michael

Sorry to hear of your stroke but am happy you are recovering.

Perhaps I am mistaken but the model of the Electrodyne was the "Olive"?

We probably met at CKY as I did a short stint there as a DJ on CITI FM. Maureen from Sugar and Spice worked at Century for the year I was there so maybe our paths crossed there as well. While at CJUM I produced a radio show called Men of Music and Ted Telesky was the host. I used to run into Bob Oliver all the time as he was always experimenting with fiberglass horns for JBL drivers at that time.

We share a passion for flying. I bought a loaded Piper Archer while obtaining my licence back in 83. Even had DME and full auto pilot. I flew back and forth to Winnipeg on a regular basis to visit my son. Living in Regina at the time, I did many cross country flights to places like Florida, Washington DC and Las Vegas. In 1989 divorce grounded me and I have not turned a prop since. I do miss it. Always wanted a pressurised Mooney 201. That was my dream aeroplane.

Be well

Ken

michaelg
06-03-2007, 11:14 AM
I see I'm not the only pilot around here

We share a passion for flying.If you have a few minutes, you guys might enjoy the video on the Flying Colors (http://www.flying-colors.org/) web-site put together by my students. Lots of neat shots of the city (in February!), especially at night! The opening music is Winnipeg's "Watchmen".

There's one sequence at 3:40 of a 160kt low overshoot at Beausejour ... care to guess the ROC on the pullup?!

At 4:53 and 7:53 there are shots of the flight school from the air. Don't miss the spins at 17:25!

It literally makes my heart ache to watch it, particularly the scene at 16:00. :(


Even had DME and full auto pilot.Cool! I had GPS coupled autopilot in my Gulfstream - it sure helped on long cross-countries. I am particularly proud of the great setups (http://www.flying-colors.org/avionics/) I had in my Katana training fleet ... all the way from steam gauges (http://www.flying-colors.org/avionics/C-GKDA.html) to glass panel (http://www.flying-colors.org/avionics/C-FCLR.html) stuff. Our Arrow (http://www.flying-colors.org/ArrowAnnounce4.html) even had air-conditioning! :eek:

I guess the audio content of this post is that probably most of the transducers in aviation headsets and radios are made by Foster! ;)

michaelg
06-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Perhaps I am mistaken but the model of the Electrodyne was the "Olive"?You've got me there!? :confused:

The Olive consoles were designed and built by Wayne Jones in about 1970. It was the very first to use "automation". Only five were ever delivered and the one at Caribou Ranch is still in use today.

Wayne later started "Amber Electro Design" and produced the famous 4400 series audio analyzers, etc.. He is now with Intel.


http://www.akh.se/analog/amber/4400-0.jpg

The pic below shows the Olive installation at Andre Perry's "le Studio" north of Montreal. That's where the Police recorded "Every Breath You Take", etc., which was one of the safety masters we used to demo the Fostex monitors at AES.


http://www.pmerecords.com/images/Olive/AdsAndBrochures/Olive-Ad.jpg

lfh
06-03-2007, 03:06 PM
Michael, Ken,

I'm reading your posts with great interest!


Studio B was a Luxman driving (I don't remember) but Studio A had Altec passive third-octave EQ and electronic crossovers feeding industrial-series Crown amplifiers driving the Westlakes. I helped install the gear and was there when Hidley tuned them.

Very cool! What year was that (c:a)? Was it still just pink noise and 1/3 octave analysis or had the "TDS and LEDE revolution" begun?

What were the subjective qualities of the early Westlake rooms? I figure they must have sounded rather "live" (with all the early reflexes) but with quite controlled bass -- i.e. enjoyable but less analytical than called for?

Also, did you compare thoroughly with and without the EQ?

Ken Pachkowsky
06-03-2007, 04:15 PM
If you have a few minutes, you guys might enjoy the video on the Flying Colors (http://www.flying-colors.org/) web-site put together by my students. Lots of neat shots of the city (in February!), especially at night!


Michael

Some great video. Have watched about half of it and had to run. The night shots over downtown are very nice.

Ken

michaelg
06-03-2007, 06:08 PM
What year was that (c:a)?I'm guessing about 1972.
Was it still just pink noise and 1/3 octave analysis or had the "TDS and LEDE revolution" begun?Acousta-Voicing was only a couple of years old. TDS hadn't yet been licensed and LEDE was about 10 years away.
What were the subjective qualities of the early Westlake rooms?Dynamic is the first thought that comes to my mind. Lots of power. But I always thought of the Westlakes as "harsh" (a function of crude dispersion control and lack of time correction, in spite of the external phase corrected EQ) which wasn't helped by a little slap reflection off the ceiling and console which tended to destroy mid-band definition. The bass was well-controlled and tight. Overall, a work in progress, a step in the right direction from what went before. IMHO.
did you compare thoroughly with and without the EQ?No. That would be meaningless. Hidley's approach was an integrated environment, a closed system. Auditioning a "part" of the system alone would be of no particular value.

Ken Pachkowsky
06-03-2007, 06:57 PM
[quote=michaelg;171994]I always thought of the Westlakes as "harsh"
[quote]

I heard 3 Westlake designed rooms at that time and did not find any of them harsh....interesting opinion.

Century 21

Le Studio at Morin Heights (went there with John Hannah and had the privilege of sitting in on a all night session with Rush)

Caribou Ranch in 1980. What a great spot. The barn reminded me of the fun we had at our Rat River Farm parties (outside St Piere, Manitoba in 76 and 77. Racks of DC300A's and plenty of JBL's.....and beer.

Ken

michaelg
06-04-2007, 12:23 AM
I heard 3 Westlake designed rooms at that time and did not find any of them harsh....interesting opinion.I visited hundreds of Hidley's studios during the '70s and the only one to really impress me was the Phonogram complex in Hilversum, The Netherlands.

In fact, it was the nicest studio I have ever seen! No financial constraints - no holds barred. It was in the middle of a large "aspen-like" forest and had a lot of glass walls so the studios seemed to extend into the trees.

Phillips had had their hand in it big time so it wasn't "pure" Hidley - the trademark "rough" red rock and warm wood treatment had been abandoned for a "smooth" fieldstone, cool grey/blue colour scheme - but it was definitely Hidley! Gorgeous.

We were there installing some of my gear in preparation for a Golden Earring session and got to experience the studios in operation over a couple of days.

This was in about '78 and I don't know what version of the monitors were in use but the evolution of Tom's philosophy paid off big time in Holland. I thought it sounded great!

Tom's success was in holding his cards close to his vest, taking a very proprietary, holistic approach to building recording "systems" - keeping the design, construction, installation and certification processes completely "in-house". But the "Hidley approach" cost a lot of money and you couldn't buy it out of a dealer showroom! He didn't license his intellectual properties. Many copied his designs without understanding and failed.

This was about the same time I was planning and developing the Fostex Laboratory Series monitors (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5229) and it would be accurate to say I felt we could build a monitor that would do as well, or better, but on a distributable and reproducible basis!

We ended up successfully delivering a standardized, but scalable solution which could be retrofitted to a variety of existing facilities and which could be a core component of new designs. Our design provided a new standard, consistent reproducible performance in applications ranging from mobile trucks through the the largest world-class installations.

And I believe we addressed and conquered those specific issues in the "Westlake" design with which I found fault. The Fostex Laboratory Series monitors exhibited extremely well-mannered dispersion and integral time correction/phase alignment. They did not sound "harsh". And I dare say that no-one who heard them would disagree!

IMHO. ;)

BTW, in order to provide a correct low-frequency acoustic load for the monitors, we supplied both half-space 2π steradian soffit mounting kits and vertical versions with plinths for full-space 4π steradian environments.

Ken Pachkowsky
06-04-2007, 08:24 AM
I visited hundreds of Hidley's studios during the '70s and the only one to really impress me was the Phonogram complex in Hilversum, The Netherlands.


And I believe we addressed and conquered those specific issues in the "Westlake" design with which I found fault. The Fostex Laboratory Series monitors exhibited extremely well-mannered dispersion and integral time correction/phase alignment. They did not sound "harsh". And I dare say that no-one who heard them would disagree!

IMHO. ;)

BTW, in order to provide a correct low-frequency acoustic load for the monitors, we supplied both half-space 2π steradian soffit mounting kits and vertical versions with plinths for full-space 4π steradian environments.

Michael

I have only seen photo's of your design and never had a chance to hear the finished product. You certainly have raised my curiosity. Do you have a pair of them at home? Could the design be easily duplicated using current drivers?

I have been in San Jose Del Cabo,Mx looking at a business opportunity for the last 10 days and will be leaving this Saturday. Sometime in the next couple of weeks I plan on flying to Winnipeg to visit my folks up in Pine Falls. I would love to get together with you over a cup of coffee? Have you stayed in touch with Bob Oliver? I would enjoy seeing him after all these years. He used to come over to a house several of us shared at 201 Scotia Street. I beieve he was teaching mathmatics at Red River at the time? Last year I exchanged some emails with Ted Telesky. He is well and living in Santa Barbra as you probably know.


Ken

michaelg
06-04-2007, 09:59 AM
Do you have a pair of them at home?Yes, I have a pair of LS/4s and several other limited production models.
Could the design be easily duplicated using current drivers?I was actually about to debate Don McRitchie on that point; most of the current drivers that I am aware of are what we used to refer to as "sound reinforcement" products, not "studio monitor" grade. That doesn't mean that one couldn't attempt it, but they wouldn't meet our "internal" criteria. Fostex can still produce the H420 wooden horn design but it is only available in birch or laminate (~US$600+ ea), not solid teak. We were having problems even back then sourcing sufficient high-grade teak for the monitors and the prices were getting insane. I am unaware of anything close to the T825 diffraction horn super tweeter although I have seen a few rare units move through eBay. It might be a worthy exercise though!
I would love to get together with you over a cup of coffee?I'd look forward to that if we can find a common date. We are doing a major house/kitchen renovation in June and will be traveling a lot. My son and I are flying down to Chicago for Clapton's second Crossroads Guitar Festival. I am visiting Wayne Jones in Beaverton Oregon to pick up a load of Ampex 351s and will be in Victoria for a wedding.
Have you stayed in touch with Bob Oliver?Unfortunately, no. Someone told me he had retired from the college. I have a possible email address for him but haven't succeeded in reaching him.
Last year I exchanged some emails with Ted Telesky. He is well and living in Santa Barbra as you probably know.Yes. Ted and I remain in constant communication. He is slowing down a little but has been spending huge amounts of time setting up manufacturing plants in China. He has been consulting on a Microslop Zone Player cradle out of Australia and some projects for Monster. I hope to see him this summer as well.

spkrman57
06-04-2007, 12:53 PM
They sound interesting.

Ron



Yes, I have a pair of LS/4s and several other limited production models.

michaelg
06-04-2007, 01:49 PM
Could you post pics here of the monitors?There is a whole thread about them (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5229) and other Fostex units elsewhere on this board.


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6121&stc=1&d=1111622906
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6122&stc=1&d=1111622950
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6123&stc=1&d=1111622990
These are representative of our "audiophile" offerings of the day:

http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/Fostex-GZSeries_Page_1SM.jpg
http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/Fostex-GZSeries_Page_2SM.jpghttp://gray.mb.ca/fostex/Fostex-GZSeries_Page_3SM.jpg
http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/Fostex-GZSeries_Page_4SM.jpg

michaelg
06-04-2007, 11:34 PM
When looking for the Century 21 pix, we found a treasure trove of stuff I had forgotten about completely!

Here is a page of one of our old signal processing brochures which includes representative clients. The top right pic is Century 21's "A" control room. The two rack units above the engineer's head with the black meters were my products.

(The engineer is Jack Clements from Esterhazy Saskatchewan who later became an award-winning movie producer - he did one of my favourite aviation movies: "For the Moment" starring Russell Crowe and filmed primarily in Brandon. Jack died this spring.)

The others are CKY-AM (Winnipeg), Children's Television Workshop (NYC) and Little Richard in concert (I can't remember the touring sound company name!).

http://www.gray.mb.ca/fostex/OC-Cover.jpg

michaelg
06-04-2007, 11:50 PM
Here's some really interesting stuff - I didn't realize we had these!

These are comparative plots of the Century 21 Studio "A" Westlake TM1 monitors relative to the Fostex LS/3 monitors in situ at the listening position at the console.

The Fostex are in the top row, the Westlakes in the bottom; the vertical increments are 2.5dB per division.

The Westlakes are tri-amped and third-octave EQ'd by Hidley. The Fostex are driven by a single amplifier with their internal passive crossovers driven flat from the console.


http://www.gray.mb.ca/fostex/Westlake%20TM1%20versus%20Fostex%20LS3%20-%20top%20row.jpg

michaelg
06-05-2007, 12:07 AM
Here are the lab measurements for our smallest "Laboratory Series" monitor, the LS/2 which was spec'd at 45Hz-20KHz, within 6dB. You will see that we were very conservative - that was a worst-case, 4π spec; in a 2π soffit mount, we could have actually spec'd the LS/2 down another octave to 23Hz!! :eek:

Note that above 800Hz the performance of all models was identical! Only the low frequency cut-off varied between models as they were scaled to properly integrate with the monitoring environment. No sense putting a 19Hz monitor in a room than can only sustain 50Hz!

http://www.gray.mb.ca/fostex/FostexLS2.jpg

lfh
06-05-2007, 03:14 PM
Dynamic is the first thought that comes to my mind. Lots of power. But I always thought of the Westlakes as "harsh" /.../ which wasn't helped by a little slap reflection off the ceiling and console which tended to destroy mid-band definition. The bass was well-controlled and tight. Overall, a work in progress, a step in the right direction from what went before. /.../

Hidley's approach was an integrated environment, a closed system. Auditioning a "part" of the system alone would be of no particular value.

I think (based on studying the designs "on paper", that is) "work in progress, a step in the right direction from what went before" sums it up nicely: Hidley pioneered many of the CR concepts we today take for granted (flush mounted mains in a splayed wall, bass "traps", room symmetry and so on). What was missing at the time (at least outside academia) was a thorough understanding of psycho-acoustics (especially the negative effects of early reflexes) -- and good measurement tools.

According to an often cited interview with Hidley, he had listended to studio monitors outdoors (on a roof) and had never heard such good reproduction. He thus tried to partly recreate free field conditions with the "soffit" mounted mains, an absorbing rear wall, and massive bass (broadband) absorbers. However, I think he -- probably inspired by concert hall designs -- tried to "go one better", by deliberately introducing a fair amount of reflexes, something that actually hurt the design. (Starting in the late 70:s, the LEDE design camp strived to address those shortcomings.)

As to the graphic EQ, I guess you're right. If it was an integral part of his designs (e.g. to adjust the LF for the half space operation and so on), it wouldn't make much sense to listen without. Nevertheless it would be interesting to know what the thoughts about EQ were back in the days. According to current thinking, they probably only made matters worse when attempting to correct situations that only can be addressed properly with a fully parametric EQ -- and in some instances (comb filtering) only can be corrected by means of proper room treatment / geometry.

Do you happen to remember rougly what the curve looked like; mild (few dB:s) corrections and possibly a HF slope -- or did it look like the Swiss Alps?

michaelg
06-05-2007, 10:35 PM
Hidley [...] had listended to studio monitors outdoors (on a roof) and had never heard such good reproduction.You are describing a 'standard' poor-man's "anechoic chamber"; when we didn't have access to the National Research Council's anechoic chamber, we were known to have buried some speakers in the ground and hung the microphone over them! :D
Do you happen to remember rougly what the curve looked like; mild (few dB:s) corrections and possibly a HF slope -- or did it look like the Swiss Alps?I honestly can't remember.

But during those test sessions, we did stick one of my company's parametric equalizers in front of the Westlakes (without changing/removing any of Hidley's 'calibrated' setup) and spent a night trying to tame them. Here are the results:

http://gray.mb.ca/fostex/Studio%20A%20Westlakes.jpg

lfh
06-07-2007, 03:11 PM
These are comparative plots of the Century 21 Studio "A" Westlake TM1 monitors relative to the Fostex LS/3 monitors in situ at the listening position at the console.

/.../

The Westlakes are tri-amped and third-octave EQ'd by Hidley. The Fostex are driven by a single amplifier with their internal passive crossovers driven flat from the console.

I think it's impressive that you still have that data after all those years (and know where to find it).

Just to be clear: The Westies sat in their soffits, and the Fostex monitors were free standing, right?

In any case the FR of the Westies as installed there looks quite nasty... I bet Hidley didn't use the same measurement rig and mic position that you did ;) What surprises me in particular is the large difference between L and R.

Oh, and clearly the Fostex look very well behaved! Very cool! :applaud:

lfh
06-07-2007, 03:16 PM
we supplied both half-space 2? steradian soffit mounting kits and vertical versions with plinths for full-space 4? steradian environments.

How did you go about soffit mounting them? Was there a version with a baffle for the mid and HF horn?

lfh
06-07-2007, 03:35 PM
But I always thought of the Westlakes as "harsh"

As to the early Westlakes (TM-1) sounding harsh: It seems the folks at Polar Studios were not entirely happy either, since -- if my "detective work" is correct -- the monitors soon got converted from 3-ways to 4-ways, and the 2420:s got replaced by a "real" tweeter, see http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9131&page=3 (post 37 and onwards).

Ken, do you know what year the HR-1:s went into production?

Ken Pachkowsky
06-07-2007, 04:55 PM
Ken, do you know what year the HR-1:s went into production?


I am not sure but could find out. It's got to be since the early 80's I think.

I will look into it on my return from Mexico.

Ken

cherokee
11-01-2007, 03:07 PM
These were one of the original pairs of the Westlake TM1's originally installed in what was MGM Studios, in 1971, before Cherokee took over in 1974.

I was wondering if anyone could give me some sort of an idea of what these might be worth-or if in anybody would be interested in making an offer, we are accepting now. More pictures are availiable if needed.

Thanks-Kevin

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/squeeks555/IMG_1093.jpg

Maron Horonzakz
11-02-2007, 07:20 AM
Looks like they are missing a tweeter under the lip of mid horn.

alskinner
11-02-2007, 11:44 AM
What looks like a hole under the Mid Horn lip is actually a horn. Westlake used a 1" driver such as a JBL 2420 for the HF.

Regards
AL

Maron Horonzakz
11-02-2007, 11:50 AM
Yes but it also had a small smith type horn in front of that..

alskinner
11-02-2007, 12:36 PM
Maron,

You are correct on the later versions, but the earlier versions used an extremely short coupling as pictured below.

Regards
AL