L-100 Advice .......Of course

[SUPERBEE]

Is there any reason to keep my L-100 Century's that have a few finish blemisihes (Plant ring wear and one cab is lighter than the other) or should I run my new L-100's (With higher serial numbers and no notation of "Century" ) that are damn near perfect.

I have my new Quadrex grilles on the new L-100's and they look DAMN SEXY.

Both sets have the "Heavy Basket Woofer" so that is not an issue.

PLEASE, I trust most of you here. Let me know what you think?

As always......TYIA!!!!

[Zilch]

To the best of my knowledge, no L100s were made with a "light-basket" woofer; I don't know what that means, actually.

Sonically, the better version is the early original, with the drivers in-line.

If neither of yours are those, I would keep the newest ones....

[SUPERBEE]

WHY does that version sound better?


Sonically, the better version is the early original, with the drivers in-line.

If neither of yours are those, I would keep the newest ones....

[Zilch]

The others are not mirror-imaged. In detail, the sound coming from each member of a pair is therefore different. This messes with imaging and accuracy.

The originals also have a real crossover reducing overlap of frequencies among the drivers....

[Titanium Dome]

The revised design arguably works better for near field use, similar but not as good as its sibling studio monitors, but for normal listening distances the original in line design is the better design IMO, too.

Therefore I have two sets of original L100s and no sets of the redesigned models.

[Gordzilla]

Hahahaha!

Poor Superbee!

"what to do, what to do?!?"

don't worry. somebody will sell you a truckload of speakers for 12 cents very soon.

[SUPERBEE]

The others are not mirror-imaged. In detail, the sound coming from each member of a pair is therefore different. This messes with imaging and accuracy.

The originals also have a real crossover reducing overlap of frequencies among the drivers....


The revised design arguably works better for near field use, similar but not as good as its sibling studio monitors, but for normal listening distances the original in line design is the better design IMO, too.

Therefore I have two sets of original L100s and no sets of the redesigned models.

I will be using these in the bedroom about 4 feet from the bed. So the newer L-100s should be OK I would assume. I will A/B them this weekend to be sure.

[Zilch]

You haven't told us, Superbee, are your older pair "in-line," or will you be comparing two vintages of the "cluster" configuration?

[SUPERBEE]

You haven't told us, Superbee, are your older pair "in-line," or will you be comparing two vintages of the "cluster" configuration?

Both are "cluster" versions. I have not yet seen/heard an "in line" set.

Did you get your 4320 grilles yet?

[Zilch]

No grilles yet. Maybe today.... :thmbsup:

[SUPERBEE]

So will there be any difference in earlier or later "cluster" versions??

[Zilch]

I have measured differences, but I can't say I hear them.

Biggest improvement in that "family" was 4312 going mirror-image, and later, real crossovers again....

[fotodan]

To the best of my knowledge, no L100s were made with a "light-basket" woofer; I don't know what that means, actually.

Sonically, the better version is the early original, with the drivers in-line.

If neither of yours are those, I would keep the newest ones....



Thanks Zilch, you made my day. Its been so many years since I had my grilles off my L100's (original owner, have had them over 30 years), I had to remove them just to see which ones I had. Mine are all in line.. Yessssssss.........

[Zilch]

Mine are all in line.. Yessssssss.........And have you tried plugging your ports yet? :D

[fotodan]

Not yet, I have read the write up you did on it. Would it be a noticable difference????

[Zilch]

Decidedly. It will strip the boom outta the bass. Try it; you may like it....

[fotodan]

Zilch, I'll give it a try and tell you wht I think. I do have a question that is off topic. I pulled my L100 manual out and was just reading through it, and ran across the section that says if running 2 sets of JBL speakers together, on set should be connected out of phase. With me running both L100's and 4311 B's, should one set be connected out of phase??

[Zilch]

You'll have to scan and post that here, or type it in. I can't imagine what it's saying.

You should not be running multiple pair of speakers in the same listening space except using a HT processor which distributes the signals appropriately to multiples.

I don't know where so many users are getting this. More is NOT better in this case....

[fotodan]

On page 5 it reads like this:

SPECIAL NOTE: To maintain consistent polarity with other JBL loudspeaker system models, current L100's (commencing with serial number 47100 and easily identified by the foam ring surrounding the high frequency direct radiator) are reversed in polarity with respect to earlier units. If early and current L100's are utilized in the same room, as in a quad installation, the early units should be connected "out of phase" with the current L100's.

[Zilch]

Well, I'm not going to wade through the whole L100 polarity thing to figure it out, but, yes, the polarity is reversed early versus late versions.

The easiest way to determine the polarity versus other speakers is to put a 1.5 V battery across the input terminals and observe the direction of motion of the woofer cone. JBL convention is the reverse of industry standard. Battery (+) to red terminal will pull the cone in. All systems should be wired in phase....

Here's more than you wanted to know about it:

http://www.jblpro.com/tech-library/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf

4311s are positive, it says. I'm guessing late L100s are negative....

[Zilch]

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-L100-Speakers-Original-1st-Series-Design-Near-MINT_W0QQitemZ280084656966QQihZ018QQcategoryZ50597 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Storm]

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-L100-Speakers-Original-1st-Series-Design-Near-MINT_W0QQitemZ280084656966QQihZ018QQcategoryZ50597 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Why are the serial numbers so far apart and why are they getting so much?

Yikes.

-Storm.

[Zilch]

Magic words, Storm. Marketing.

Your casual L100 buyer would would never have known they were different.

Now, they HAVE to have them, 'cause they're "special." :D

See also:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280084643377&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RUPX_Pr4_PcY_BID_Stores_IT&refitem=280084656966&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=UpSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

[Fred Sanford]

Why are the serial numbers so far apart and why are they getting so much?

Yikes.

-Storm.

It was a typo on the serial #s, he corrected the ad. Not AS far apart.

je

[SUPERBEE]

Last time someone tried "plugging my ports" it cost me $200



And have you tried plugging your ports yet? :D

[Zilch]

I can't figure if it's the mechanic or the bondsman Superbee has on speed dial.... :p

[SEAWOLF97]

It was a typo on the serial #s, he corrected the ad. Not AS far apart.

je

the veneer matches across the tops of the two.


Last time someone tried "plugging my ports" it cost me $200

not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Fred Sanford]

Bought my port plugs today, Zilch, and have some other tangent Q's I'll post in another thread, if you're interested.

I'll be doing some listen-testing tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks,

je

[Zilch]

...if you're interested.
But, of COURSE! :thmbsup:

[Zilch]

There you go. "In-line" garnered a $179 premium, though the 4311Bs didn't do half bad themselves.... :thmbsup:

[epoch5]

Bought my port plugs today, Zilch, and have some other tangent Q's I'll post in another thread, if you're interested.

I'll be doing some listen-testing tomorrow hopefully.

Thanks,

je


um, what do you use to plug the ports? :blink:
I am a idiot at this kind of thing, but i do know what ports are.

[Fred Sanford]

Plumber's test plugs, search the forum for Zilch's "Acoustic Suspension" thread to see the genesis of the idea.

je

[epoch5]

Plumber's test plugs, search the forum for Zilch's "Acoustic Suspension" thread to see the genesis of the idea.

je

tanks

[epoch5]

If I recap my l100s with new solen or clairity caps should I use the .01 bypass caps?

[Zilch]

Solens don't require bypass caps. That's why I use them -- they're cheaper than Daytons plus Thetas.

Clarity, someone else will have to advise; I've never tried them....

[epoch5]

Solens don't require bypass caps. That's why I use them -- they're cheaper than Daytons plus Thetas.

Clarity, someone else will have to advise....


Zilch you are a great asset to this site. Thanks.:D

[Zilch]

Zilch you are a great asset to this site. Thanks.:DDidya plug yer ports yet? ;)

[epoch5]

Didya plug yer ports yet? ;)


not yet that's happening tomorrow.:)

[SUPERBEE]

Zilch you are a great asset to this site. Thanks.:D





I will second that.:applaud: Zilch has always been a help to me.

[soundboy]

If I recap my l100s with new solen or clairity caps should I use the .01 bypass caps?

I wouldn't use solens in L100's...just my opinion....an already in your face speaker would become even more so...I would use the PX or SA series Claritycaps, with/without Auricap .01's.....I have used both claritycaps in many systems. The PX series is priced at about the same as the solens, and are night and day more neutral, musical, smooth....and at the same time detailed. The SA series are even better, and sound great without a bypass.
Bypassing is a tricky thing....you just have to listen for a day or two after installing a cap....I have found polystyrene's to sound too "electronic" and "clinical" and a bit unnatural....I have found the highly touted 1843 vishay .01's to add smoothness, but not really much in the way of added detail or aliveness....the Auricap .01's sound killer, to me....they are also about $7.00 each! Are they worth it? In the right application, yes.
Oh yeah, I tried Hovland's once, too. Didn't care for them....made things "louder" in the top end and more forward....not good.
As every old timer on the forum knows, around 1980 JBL used both polyprope and polystyrene bypasses.....01 and .001 repectfully....I have never done both. Perhaps that is the ticket for making the polystyrene a little more musical. It's on here in some other posts, somewhere...But, they (JBL) were bypassing cheaper mylars, not excellent polyprope to start with.
I suspect that once claritycaps catch on, solen will have to redesign their "fastcaps"...it's that much difference. And I used solens for years, too. There was nothing else reasonably priced for large values...
Try tubesandmore.com for the auricaps....and E-speakers.com for the claritycaps.
The worst earache I ever got? Solens bypassed with a .01 wondercap. :biting:....not a good idea.
I don't want to offend anyone that likes, or uses solen caps. In certain systems, they don't suck. But I can't imagine many JBL systems benefitting from them, unless they were used in the low end. They are pretty hot...soft dome tweeters might like them better...JBL doesn't have many of those in their old systems.
[B]I have some 4301B's with SA series in them, unbypassed....they sound right on, musical, killer. I don't want to mess with them. I have the cheaper PX series in some 4406 monitors, with the auricap bypasses, and they sound right on, too. So, get out yur soldering gun....and a hair dryer to soften up the old hot glue around those old paper covered mylars...and have some fun...:D

[Titanium Dome]

Dude, that's a very bold statement.

[epoch5]

Since I have 4 L100s, here is what I am going to do. I have ordered a set of the solens for 2 of them and a set of the SA Clairity caps for 2 of them. Then I will be able to switch between the pairs with the speaker A B switch. whichever I like the best, that is what the other 2 will become. As always I thank everyone for their help.:D

[Zilch]

Since I have 4 L100s, here is what I am going to do....Science strikes again!

[Heh, heh.... :thmbsup: ]

[epoch5]

Wow I can't believe plugged ports makes as much difference as it does.
woo hoo, thanks again guys.:applaud:

[Zilch]

Wow I can't believe plugged ports makes as much difference as it does.Don't overdrive them now. :no:

The boom is gone. That'll take some getting used to.... :thmbsup:

[epoch5]

Don't overdrive them now. :no:

The boom is gone. That'll take some getting used to.... :thmbsup:


K :applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

Don't overdrive them now. :no:I'd check to make sure they are really sealed... To test an acoustic suspension for a proper seal, I carefully push the cone in about half of it's possible travel and let go of it... if it recenters at anything other than a snail's pace you have a leak.

...as for overpowering them, with the added air load behind them it will be much harder to overdrive them than before... be careful about overheating them though. I certainly wouldn't play any test tones at high spls for any extended amounts of time.


Widget

[Zilch]

...as for overpowering them, with the added air load behind them it will be much harder to overdrive them than before... be careful about overheating them though. I certainly wouldn't play any test tones at high spls for any extended amounts of time.I believe they'll be protected against the overexcursion damage I've documented with those drivers. It's quite amazing the change in compliance with the installation of the port plug.

[No more flaccid cones.... :p ]

[Fred Sanford]

Now you've got to think about the marketing angle...what are you going to name them to get people talking and buying? What can tie in with a catchy jingle? Traffic-stopping billboards?

A.S.S plugs? (Acoustic Suspension Simulation plugs)

B.U.T.T. plugs? (Boom Utterly, Totally Tamed plugs)

...nah, I'll think of something better...once my head's out of my :moon: .

je

[Zilch]

...nah, I'll think of something better...once my head's out of my :moon: .We're still waitin' for YOUR report on the results of the mod, too, of course. :p

[Fred Sanford]

We're still waitin' for YOUR report on the results of the mod, too, of course. :p

Wife is leaving tomorrow morning to spend a week in FLA with her Mom...

Music, Motorcycles and Mayhem are in store for next week.

Besides, I have to listen to them normal for a while first, I have maybe an hour of listening time on L100s total so far. I'll fix that.

je

[Fred Sanford]

Wife is leaving tomorrow morning to spend a week in FLA with her Mom...

Music, Motorcycles and Mayhem are in store for next week.

Besides, I have to listen to them normal for a while first, I have maybe an hour of listening time on L100s total so far. I'll fix that.

je

Actually, my labors today will help in this, I unpacked & alphabetized a couple thousand CDs today for easy access. They had been in order at my last house, but my parents had packed them, so they needed a bit of help once they were out.
I need to test two Denon 6-disc players (444s?) before they move on to a new home, plus that Crown DC300A keeps getting moved around whenever I need shelf space, so that should give the L100s something to chew on. I'll let you know how it sounds.

je

[epoch5]

The Solen caps got here late friday. I put them in one pair today. They sure gave that pair a kick in the butt. I need to listen for a bit to see if I like the solens. The clairity caps should be here monday. The Solens are a vast improvement over the old mylars. The butt plugs, I mean the port plugs sure are a nice trick.:D

[epoch5]

The Clairity caps got here early this morning. So in they went. I have spent the afternoon listening to the difference between the Solen
and Clairity caps. The caps produce quite different results. The Solen produce a much more in your face sound, at times I felt like the vocals were screaming at me. I am sure that would appeal to some people. The Clairity caps produced a much warmer and smooth sound. I like them a lot. In short if you like a hard edge on your music the Solens are for you, if you like warm clear smooth music the Clairity caps are for you. It is up to the personal taste of the individual. The Clairity cap are for me. That's my opinion and it's worth every penny you paid for it. LOL:p Zilch's port plugs are almost as good as new caps. Oh yeah I used the SA Clairity caps and now have another set ordered for the other set of speakers.

[soundboy]

I have spent the afternoon listening to the difference between the Solen and Clairity caps. The caps produce quite different results. The Solen produce a much more in your face sound, at times I felt like the vocals were screaming at me. I am sure that would appeal to some people. The Clairity caps produced a much warmer and smooth sound. I like them a lot. In short if you like a hard edge on your music the Solens are for you, if you like warm clear smooth music the Clairity caps are for you...... Oh yeah I used the SA Clairity caps and now have another set ordered for the other set of speakers.
:applaud::applaud::applaud:
That's been my experience exactly...Wait a couple days for them to break in....they get even better after a week or so....really.

[epoch5]

One more time I would like to proudly display my lack of knowledge. I have 2 questions.

1. What is a mirror image speaker?


2. I have 4 L100s 1 woofer is quite a bit weaker than the others, it was weak before the recap too, what could be causing this? Thanks ahead of time.:D

[hjames]

One more time I would like to proudly display my lack of knowledge. I have 2 questions.

1. What is a mirror image speaker?


2. I have 4 L100s 1 woofer is quite a bit weaker than the others, it was weak before the recap too, what could be causing this? Thanks ahead of time.:D

The idea is - if there is a pattern to the positioning of the drivers in the baffle board - say - tweeter on the top left and midrange on the top right - the mirror image of it would be tweeter on the top right, midrange on the top left.

The design is to help position the stereo image in the room.

Think of putting a mirror against the side of your speaker.

[Zilch]

1) Mirror-imaged L112 pair per Heather's description, below.

2) Shorted winding in voice coil? Compare DCR with the others.

Demagnetized?

[epoch5]

Thank you men, both of you. I got it.:applaud:

[hjames]

Thank you men, both of you. I got it.

Men? I don't think you got it ...
:applaud:

[epoch5]

Men? I don't think you got it ...
:applaud:


Oh sorry I wasn't paying close enough attention. Thank you my lady.:D

[epoch5]

:applaud::applaud::applaud:
That's been my experience exactly...Wait a couple days for them to break in....they get even better after a week or so....really.


You know, when you said the clairity caps would get better with a little time. I thought you were crazier than a s*it house rat. But you were right, they have gotten better.:bouncy:

[JBLAddict]

I believe they'll be protected against the overexcursion damage I've documented with those drivers. It's quite amazing the change in compliance with the installation of the port plug.

[No more flaccid cones.... :p ]

Hi there Zilch, I bought the $3.50 plugs from Lowe's last weekend and pushed the speakers back up against the wall, nice improvement to the bass, reduced boom, much tighter....question, why is the plug effective for the L100, but not(or at least not recommended here) for other ported 3Ways in the 43XX series with the same accordian style surround (or the L112, L100T, 120Ti for that matter)?

what makes the bass tuning on the L100 "artificially enhanced" but not the others

thx

[Zilch]

what makes the bass tuning on the L100 "artificially enhanced" but not the othersL100 and derivatives use what is fundamentally a closed-box woofer in a too-small ported alignment in order to generate the characteristic boomy bass, which, at the time, heard in comparison to more accurate competition, sufficiently impressed buyers to part them from their money. Many listeners today continue to prefer their artificially enhanced frequency response.

JBL and other manufacturers ultimately moved more toward accurate reproduction as the public taste matured. In the battle of West Coast vs. East Coast sound, it may be said that East won out, though there are still large market segments, primarily catering to adolescent tastes and well known to everyone by experience, where bass boom remains de rigueur.

Closing the port on properly tuned systems has the similar effect of lowering the "Q" of the alignment, which overdamps their more accurate bass response. It becomes more extended, but no longer balanced according to the design. 4311 and similar products using the 123A/2213 in L100 alignment, however, benefit equally from the port closure mod....