Best Current Production Drivers for Tube Amp?

[Minatogawaman]

I am thinking of building some folded horn speaker enclosures with 10", 12" or 15" LF drivers and using compression drivers with horns on top.

I would be driving the LF speakers with an Accuphase P300 Solid State amp of around 150 watts per channel and put a 30 watt tube amp on the HF.

My question is, what might be the best current production LF and HF drivers for this kind of HIFI set-up? The room is not that big and we dont listen to really loud music. I just want to recapture the special sounds I heard in my youth from JBL setups like the Olympus.

Would I be better off buying vintage components off ebay? Are their models that are almost good but not astronomically expensive like the "famous" model from the Olympus, Paragon etc.?

[loach71]

I've been playing around in an area similar to yours.
I have found most of the 1" JBL compression drivers give very similar sounds -- you don't NEED the 2" compression drivers and their BIG costs.

I've tried the 2426H, the 2420 (Alnico) and the 2470 (Alnico) and haven't heard any super differences. One note -- I removed the antiquated linen / phenolic diaphragms from the 2470s and replaced them with the more current aluminum diaphragm from the 2426H.

The horn you use with these drivers is a different story. I have tried JBL 2345, 2350, EV HR6040, EV SM120A, EV HR120 and EV HR60 horns. I crossed over (active) the horn / compression driver to the woofer at 930 Hz. (24 dB / Octave Linkwitz-Riley). The bottom half was a 2231 woofer / PR 15C passive radiator in an 8 cubic foot enclosure. My favorite horn irrespective of the compression driver was the EV HR6040. This is a HUGE horn. For more sane environments, the EV SM120A and HR120 were equivalent. All were very smooth -- with little of the "honkiness" that horn detractors talk about. The JBL 2345 and 2350 were not as smooth as the EV constant directivity models mentioned above. I haven't tried the more recent JBL horns yet -- they are just too expensive on EbaY.

The mid range horn is crossed over at 9.3 KHz (24 dB / Octave Linkwitz-Riley) to a JBL 2404 baby cheek super tweeter. I tried the 2404 crossed over at 7 KHz - but found that it was just to "sizzly".

In summary, the EV horns mentioned above (except the EV HR60 which sounded like the JBL 2345) will work well with any JBL 1" compression driver. Watch EBay for some bargains in this area -- you'll be able to build something that can compete favorably with the Olympus.

Good luck with the experimentation and have fun listening to the results.

[Mr. Widget]

I am thinking of building some folded horn speaker enclosures with 10", 12" or 15" LF drivers and using compression drivers with horns on top.

Would I be better off buying vintage components off ebay? Are their models that are almost good but not astronomically expensive like the "famous" model from the Olympus, Paragon etc.?This is very difficult. There are so many choices and few of them are clear cut. Have you listened to an Olympus or Paragon recently? You probably should before heading down this path. A number of years ago I thought I would build a pair of large JBL monitors hoping to tweak them a little here and there to make them satisfy my dream... after building them and listening to them, I wished I had tracked down a pair and auditioned them recently... the memory focuses on the highlights and dampens the harsh realities of these vintage systems.

That said, there are many on this forum who love the vintage sound just as they are... maybe you will to, but please listen to a vintage system before spending a lot of money. If, after an audition, they are what you really want, I'd suggest getting used JBL Pro Series drivers and have them properly reconditioned. A pair of JBL 375s with seals intact are expensive mostly due to their collector status. For the woofer, if you want the Olympus sound, you should get LE15As or a pair of 2235Hs, they are different sounding but they are both quite enjoyable. If you really want a horn loaded bottom, I'd go with an E145.


-- you don't NEED the 2" compression drivers and their BIG costs. ... you don't NEED any of this stuff... :D

The 4" diaphragmed 2" exit drivers do sound better than their 1" counterparts. The 4" 475Be does sound better than the 3" 435Be... and it costs astronomically more, if you can even get it.


Widget

[Minatogawaman]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the comparative details on the HF drivers and horns. This kind of report can really help narrow down options (and save the already slim checkbook).

Mr. Widget had an excellent point. Is vintage really just another word for nostalgia? I will try to do some listening tests with a Paragon and Olympus. Here in the Tokyo area of Japan we might just have the world's highest concentrations of Paragons. I did listen to one about a year ago. It was hooked into McIntosh tube equipment. The jazz piano trio we listened to was really amazing, but then again the sound room was really tweaked and the excitemnt of listening to a Paragon might have biased my ears!

Thanks again
Minatogawaman

[Tom Brennan]

As new 1" compression drivers go I'm very keen on the GPA (Great Plains Audio) 902. I'm also keen on Altec 511 and 811 horns. If those old horns don't appeal to you then I suggest the Edgar saladbowl.

For folded horn drivers I've no worthwhile opinion.

[Nightbrace]

I'd have to recommend the Altec 19's, not too sure how they'd sound with that combo though...

[loach71]

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the comparative details on the HF drivers and horns. This kind of report can really help narrow down options (and save the already slim checkbook).

Mr. Widget had an excellent point. Is vintage really just another word for nostalgia? I will try to do some listening tests with a Paragon and Olympus. Here in the Tokyo area of Japan we might just have the world's highest concentrations of Paragons. I did listen to one about a year ago. It was hooked into McIntosh tube equipment. The jazz piano trio we listened to was really amazing, but then again the sound room was really tweaked and the excitemnt of listening to a Paragon might have biased my ears!

Thanks again
Minatogawaman

I have 2 pair of Olympus that I am storing for my father and used them as a comparison base for my tests. The above mentioned combinations compare very favorably to the Olympus. My main point is that one doesn't need the latest and greatest drivers for a very good JBL home system. I just received some 2441 drivers on loan and hooked them up to the EV horns and the JBL 2350 horns (not the EV SM120A because it is screw-on attachment). The 2441 2" drivers did sound marginaly better than the 1" drivers -- but not enough to justify the large cost increments.

[Zilch]

Y'all need to be more specific when talking about Olympus.

Olympus was a cabinet, and even that came in two forms, closed-box and passive radiator.

Loads were S7, S7R, S8 (maybe, I've never seen one,) and S8R. Some S7s and S7Rs may have a supplemental UHF driver added.

They each sound different.

[Don't ask.... ;) ]

[loach71]

Y'all need to be more specific when talking about Olympus.

Olympus was a cabinet, and even that came in two forms, closed-box and passive radiator.

Loads were S7, S7R, S8 (maybe, I've never seen one,) and S8R. Some S7s and S7Rs may have a supplemental UHF driver added.

They each sound different.

[Don't ask.... ;) ]


The Olympus boxes have an Le15 (Lansalloy) with the surround re-done with foam and a PR15C passive radiator.. They are big, heavy boxes. I use them as a reference point for the JBL"vintage sound". They have a 2" compression driver with a short oval horn with an acoustic lens. They also appear to have an 075 bullet tweeter. My father bought these in the 60s for two separate systems.

[Zilch]

That'd be S8R, Tim. :thmbsup:

S7(R) used LE85 1" M/HF driver with no UHF driver standard....

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
What type of folded horn design are you looking at, one where the speaker is front loaded or one where the speaker loads directly in to the horn ( you cant see the from the outside of the cabinet) If it is the later design I would look at a two inch driver on a good horn that will let you crossover at lower frequency around 500hz maybe a little lower for a low power operation.

Mike Caldwell

[Mr. Widget]

The 2441 2" drivers did sound marginaly better than the 1" drivers -- but not enough to justify the large cost increments.:yes:

As a general rule, it typically costs 10X more to get a 10% increase in performance... you either settle for OK or you go broke... I've always been one who was willing to go broke to avoid simply living with OK.


Widget

[loach71]

The difference with the 2441 vs. the 1 inch drivers seems to be the low frequency cutoff. I tried them on the EV HR6040 horns and the JBL 2350 horns. The 2441 drivers seem to be smoother down to 800 Hz, while the 1 inch drivers necessitate a 930 Hz cutoff. Other than that, no significant differences are noted. This may be due to the fact that I listen at moderate (not painful) levels. :dont-know

[Minatogawaman]

I would be making the simplest boxes possible since I am not a pro carpenter. Probably bass bins in which the speaker is visible.

[loach71]

I guess this whole discussion distills down to BUDGET... how much money can you apply to the project?

If you have unlimited money then go for the top of the line JBL Beryllium drivers / horn / tweets and the latest woofers ...

Otherwise then you will have to do the experimentation... You can always resell the unwanted JBL drivers and horns on EBaY.

[Mcmankind06]

Your question is kinda hard to answer because there are a lot of good choices for your HIFI set-up.

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[artsound]

Yes, you're right, there isn't any compare between 1" and 2" throat driver. But, we still have some advantage when using 1" driver, in my opinion.

1. When you have listen room about 40 m2 (~47.8396 yard2), 2" is the very best choice, but if it is under 20m2, 1" driver will be better.

2. If it is your first JBL project, just go step by step, 1" is the first choice. You have used it till you would build seven ranges speakers system.

3. If you have limited audio budget, get 1". They can go very well even with 10" woofer and/ or 15" woofer.

4. Your opinions.....:)

[Zilch]

4. Your opinions.....:)1.5".

Mintogawaman's talking HiFi two-way here. Mr. Widget has highlighted the disconnect. There's issues:

1) Two-way Olympus sucks, sonically.

2) Paragon's a three-way. By contemporary standards, it sucks too.

In which context, 1" vs. 2" is kinda moot, not to mention the diaphragm material.

HiFi two-ways are a different game, with different rules; replicating "Vintage" sound is easy - use vintage stuff, OR, throw a 2426J on a 2370A and call it done.

[But don't call it "HiFi...."]