Room Placement and Bass LSR32 or LSR6332?

[Minatogawaman]

I'm looking for advice on room placement of my LSR6332 to extend bass response. JBL lists the bottom end as 60Hz for these wonderful speakers. I have read elsewhere that proper room placement (against walls and corners) can extend bass response as far as 40Hz. On this system we listen to mostly classical, acoustic jazz and acoustic folk on LP records so 40Hz is probably low enough. Does this sound accurate?

My living room is about 12 feet across (and 10 feet long) with a LSR6632 in each corner angled slightly inward on 2-inch-thick solid cherry stands about 20-inches high. (The room is connected to a dining room about the same size but slightly offset). Does anyone have advice for placement to maximize bass in this environment?

Sadly, my budget would not allow for the LSR6312 sub(s) for the living room system. (Have one in the studio with LSR28p and it sounds great in the living room too, but ran out of budget).

The LSR6332 are powered by an Antique Sound Labs AQ1003DT integrated (EL34. 12AU7 tube amp). This integrated has a "subout" but it is full range (not crossed over). I would consider buying some LF 15" or 12" drivers from the JBL tent sale and making my own subs (have a extra power amp), but if placement can resolve the problem I'd like to be spared the cost and wifely aggravation.

Thank you for your advice!

Minatogawaman
Takasaki City, Japan

[mikebake]

Yer driving them with a tube amp? Theres your problem...........
Additionally, the forward mid tends to detract from the bass performance, IMO.

[LowPhreak]

Yer driving them with a tube amp? Theres your problem...........


I disagree. You just gotta have the right tube amp, eg: VTL, Manley, Mesa, big-assed Audio Research, etc. But it is easier/cheaper to get decent bass output from SS.


Minatogawaman -

One of the first things I'd do is isolate the speakers on the most solid, vibration-free device I could find/afford, like Sound Anchors (http://www.soundanchors.com/) stands. Though they might look nice, 2" thick cherry is nothing to write home about when it comes to vibe isolation. You drain the vibration from the cabinet, (or prevent them from vibrating in the first place) and your low end is going to be much cleaner and probably louder, but perhaps not enough louder to get where you want to be. I've found however that good speaker isolation can do wonders for the overall response.

You could experiment with speaker height from the floor, because sometimes you'll get a floor reflection that cancels out certain frequencies, ie, maybe 20" is not the optimal height for those speakers. Changing a few inches higher or lower sometimes makes a world of difference.

Placement in any room is fairly unpredictable since there are so many variables, but one starting point is to use "odd integers". I've found it to work OK in some rooms.

Let's say you have the speakers placed along the 12' wall, and you want to find how far away from that wall you should place them. Divide 12' by 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. to get the distance from the back wall to the center of the front baffle, so:

3 = 48", 5 = 28.8", 7 = 20.6", 9 = 16"

...the idea being to avoid peaks and dips in the bass response, as well as at other freqs. You can do the same to determine placement from the side walls. Take the 10' wall and divide by 3, 5, 7, etc., so 7 = 17.1" or 5 = 24" from the center of the speaker to the side wall.

You have to do the work of moving the speakers around to different positions and listen, because this may or may not work well in in your room with your system.

[Minatogawaman]

I appreciate your replies and advice. My tube amp is admittedly a cheapie, but I like the way it sounds with my vinyl collection so, for now, these speakers are probably not going to be powered by SS. I run LSR32s in my home theater upstairs with an old Accuphase P-300s. The bass problem up there is less acute, in part perhaps, because I use a 15" JBL sub and probably due to SS amps driving the LSRs.

The idea of replacing the speaker stands and recalculating the position of the speakers was wonderful advice. I will try both. As much as the cherry stands appealed to me visually, I think I will make some metal stands based on the one's you recommend. I have access to a full-bore metal shop and a pro welder (my dad). Any recommendations on how I can dampen them?

Thanks again
Chris

[mikebake]

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/jpshakehead.gif
A 30 watt tube amp isn't going to give it to you with these speakers. The bass performance is symptomatic.
Recommended amplifier power starts at 150 and goes to 1000 for these, and there is a reason.
Adequately powered will make these rather different from what you are likely getting now. It matters to these as much as any speaker I've messed with in awhile.

[bone215]

Would it be possible to turn up the bass and see if it helps?

[LowPhreak]

Laff! Yeah, that always helps bone, but maybe he doesn't want to use or doesn't have tone pots or EQ. Myself, I like to try to find the best position in a room for a given set of speakers before I go monkeyin' with freq level adjustments. It is very possible to get a decent and likeable response curve without EQ'ing.

[LowPhreak]

The idea of replacing the speaker stands and recalculating the position of the speakers was wonderful advice. I will try both. As much as the cherry stands appealed to me visually, I think I will make some metal stands based on the one's you recommend. I have access to a full-bore metal shop and a pro welder (my dad). Any recommendations on how I can dampen them?

Thanks again
Chris

You're not thinking of fabricating one of SA's designs are you? :coolness: Shame on you!

What I'd do first before settling on a final height is determine what the best height is for the LSR's in that room. For example, I'm using one of the predecessors to that speaker - the 4412 - and in this room they happen to like being about 26 1/2" from the floor when mounted horizontally. Any higher and the low end starts to get anemic; any lower and the ears are too far off-axis. Then I tilt the front baffles up on 3/4" speaker cones to get the tweets/mids pointing at the listener.

If you use steel tubing (as opposed to flat bar stock) you can fill it in with sand or lead shot to help damp the tubes and add mass. Leave a small hole in the top plates for that.

:smthsail:

[Shane Shuster]

I think LowPhreak is offering very good advice. I also have a 10x12 listening room and have found the woofer height to be important. Too high up gives me very lean bass. I start with them on the floor and move them up little by little until a good compromise is met.

[mikebake]

"Normal" placement rules apply, but if you use sufficient power, you'll get your bass. Did I mention that before?

[LowPhreak]

mike -

Did not the OP mention this before?...

"My tube amp is admittedly a cheapie, but I like the way it sounds with my vinyl collection so, for now, these speakers are probably not going to be powered by SS."

Hence my recommending that he attempts to find the best placement possible b/c it costs nothing, except getting better stands which should be less than another amp or sub. He also may not have been aware of "normal placement rules".

[mikebake]

I understand. He just needs to know that the LSR's will never get there with that kind of power. That amp is wrung out before the LSR's are slightly involved.
He bought the S2000, now he has to run premium in it.

[LowPhreak]

Certainly with their 4 ohm impedance he'll need bigger current to get a good grip on those woofers. My problem with tubes is they can act like a big tone control if a particular amp doesn't happen to like your speaker's imp. curve. :( Then sometimes that can be a good thing.

And the LSR's don't have the typical in-room bump at 40-50Hz like the 4412/12A's have.

[mikebake]

He'd be hearing a different speaker with a strong high powered amp.

[speakerdave]

My LSR32's did not do well with my Audio Research VT60. Don't know why. That amp does well in the bass with other speakers. It may be the 4 ohm load. The LSR32's are within 1 dB from 60 Hz to the upper limit, which I think is around 20k. Accurate. Their 3 dB down point in the bass is 53 Hz. Most rooms start loading above that, so I think you should be subjectively hearing more bass. It's probably the amp. These speakers are biwired, so putting a solid state amp on the woofers would be quite easy. The JBL/UREI 6200 series would be a good low-cost option IF you can find a clean one. First, borrow a decent solid state amp to test the idea. I'm pretty sure you'll hear satisfactory bass for your kinds of music.

David

[Titanium Dome]

Yer driving them with a tube amp? Theres your problem...........
Additionally, the forward mid tends to detract from the bass performance, IMO.


http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/jpshakehead.gif
A 30 watt tube amp isn't going to give it to you with these speakers. The bass performance is symptomatic.
Recommended amplifier power starts at 150 and goes to 1000 for these, and there is a reason.
Adequately powered will make these rather different from what you are likely getting now. It matters to these as much as any speaker I've messed with in awhile.


"Normal" placement rules apply, but if you use sufficient power, you'll get your bass. Did I mention that before?


I understand. He just needs to know that the LSR's will never get there with that kind of power. That amp is wrung out before the LSR's are slightly involved.
He bought the S2000, now he has to run premium in it.


He'd be hearing a different speaker with a strong high powered amp.

Seriously, Mike's right. Don't make him say it again. :)

[LowPhreak]

Seriously, mike's right up to a point. If the OP doesn't want to replace the amp he currently has for whatever reason(s), which seems to be the case, then other options are to be considered. Optimal placement as I've outlined is one of the best.

In fact, even with a higher-current amp, optimal placement is always a very important aspect. Greater power, enhancing an already undesireable room response, is counter-productive.

[Minatogawaman]

Thanks again for all the great input.

Here are my options in light of your sage advice:

I have the following SS amps:
Accuphase P-300 (massive with output around 200WPC in 4 Ohms)
Accupahse P-250 (slightly less massive with 150WPC)
Yamaha B-4 (Beefier Japanese-only model than M-4 with 200 WPOC 4 Ohms or 55 WPC Pure Class A)
Luxman L-58a integrated (about 180 WPC into 4 Ohms)

PRO AMPS (hooked into bi-amped JBL AS-2212s in the studio)
Electro-Voice Q66 amp with 600 wpc into 4 Ohms (highs)
Hafler SR-2600 amp 600 WPC into 4 Ohms (lows)

OPTION 1:
Move JBL L-80T powered by Accuphase P-250 or Klipsch Heresy's powered by a Yamaha integrated into the living room and hook them up to the 30-watt tube amp, Put LSR-32s on Accuphase P-250 or 300 upstairs.

OPTION 2:
Use the tube amp for the highs and mids on the LSRs and power the bottom end with one of my SS amps. Which do you recommend?

OPTION 3:
Somehow beg my wife to allow me to by a new high power amp. Those of you who suggest Option 3, please recommend the best amps for the LSR6332 that are affordable for middle class guy with a wonderful wife who has limited tolerance for more "audio stuff."

The other day I tried to convince her that records everywhere really add something special to the decor. :o:

Thanks a million!!!

[Minatogawaman]

And, special thanks to Low Phreak for suggesting the most cost effective, and therefore wife-friendly, solution. I will work on placement first and see what that yields.

Minatogawaman

[LowPhreak]

OPTION 2:
Use the tube amp for the highs and mids on the LSRs and power the bottom end with one of my SS amps. Which do you recommend?




Given your list, it seems to me that you already have plenty of decent amps to drive the LSR's. You just need to do some re-arranging/experimenting.

:)

[mikebake]

Put the Klipsch on the tube amp and try the Accuphase on the LSR's. I wouldn't bother with the tube amp on the mid/hi.

[Titanium Dome]

Based on my own experience the Hafler SR-2600 is the one. Even if you can only assign it to the LSRs temporarily, you owe it to yourself to hook it up to see what those speakers and that amp are all about.

[Minatogawaman]

OK, it looks like what I should do is a kind of Solid-State version of tube-rolling...maybe amp rolling and rolling the speakers around the room for optimal placement and putting them on better stands.

I had never considered hooking the big Hafler up to the LSRs, I guess in my mind that amp is more for PA. Certainly the LSR32s in the home theater sounded great on the Accuphase amps.

We are in the middle of moving in to our new house and my comments on the LSR6332 lack of bass response was based on the new living room. Once we get unpacked and set up I will be able to do the comparisons in a more systematic way.

One last thing, other than the high-efficiency rating of the Klipsch's, why would they be a better match for the ASL tube amp than the JBL L-80T? or for that matter the old JBL L56 I have out in the shed?

Thanks again. I am learning a lot.

[LowPhreak]

Reasonable assumptions can be made, but you just never know exactly what a given amp is going to sound like with a given speaker in a particular room. I have been surprised so many times when I thought that "Amp #1" would mate best with "Speaker A" than "Amp #2" would, only to find in reality that the "#2" amp was the better sounding.

What I'd do is stack all of the contending amps near each other, then just switch the speaker cables to the various amp output's for quick comparison. You might be able to eliminate one or two of them immediately, where others might take extended listening before you come to the best conclusion.

[Ian Mackenzie]

So are you guys saying the LSR 6332 definately needs a Sub?

Ian

[Minatogawaman]

Thanks all for the advice. Here is what I found while moving stuff around during our move to the new house. I kind of want the best system in the living room since that is where the (TT) turntable and records will be played. Originally, I wanted the tube amp with the TT (VPI Scoutmaster with Grado Master Ref Cart) for "vintage vibes" but that goal is looking more and more distant...

AMP ROLLING RESULTS

#1 Moved the Klipsch Heresy IIs and the ASL 1003DT tube amp into the new living/dining room. The room is still very live without any furniture, carpet, curtains etc. The Klipsch sound very clear with nice imaging...but the low end ain't makin' it and the high-end is over the top...they sound like PA speakers. I played Doc Watson through the tubes and the guitar and mandolin sounded pretty good in the neighboring room, but sitting right in front of them was like being laser-beamed with the horns. By the time the volume was up loud enough to get the bass on Doc's low strings the highs had annoyed me into switching to Handel's Water Music. This too was not pleasant. These Klipschs might be going on the auction block.

#2 Moved the Luxman L-58A integrated down to the old house living room and plugged in the LSR6332s. Tremendous improvement over the tube amp, great balance and detail, mind-blowing imaging (if the listener is in the right spot) with Schutz's "Ressurection" and D. Krall Jazz vocal SACD. I reckon that the Accuphase amps will sound even better, as they do on the LSR32s upstairs.

The bass with the Luxman is tighter than it was with the tube amp, but still not much LF "feeling," which makes sense because the 6332s are certainly not reaching below the 40Hz range.

Later, I brought down my lone LSR6312 sub from the studio and hooked it in. with the Lux and 6332s The sub really helps, in fact I would venture to say the 6332 needs the sub more than the LSR28p does with its teenie-weenie 8 inch drivers.

COMING NEXT
ASL 1003DT tube amp hooked into JBL L80-T and the L-96 in the new living room.

I'll get around to the Hafler and LSR6332 combo later too.

DISCUSSION
My wife approves of the amp rolling idea since it could lead to some speakers heading out the door permanently. I am now faced with the dilemma of what to hook into the tube amp if the L80-T and L96 dont sound so hot.

Any suggestions for appropriate speakers for a 30-watt EL34/12AU7 tube amp? My budget will probably be about $1500 for USED speakers. Someone recommended old Tannoys....

Minatogawaman

[LowPhreak]

The Heresy's can sound great if placed well. Put the smaller tube amp on them.

I can't believe you didn't have the LSR sub already with the '32's, AND the Luxman or Accuphase amps running them. It's kind of a no-brainer.

I don't think you'll need further advice.

[Minatogawaman]

Based on my own experience the Hafler SR-2600 is the one. Even if you can only assign it to the LSRs temporarily, you owe it to yourself to hook it up to see what those speakers and that amp are all about.

What are you using as a preamp with the SR-2600 and LSR32s? I am considering using my roland mixer, but would prefer to use a Hi-Fi preamp. The problem is 1/4" jack to RCA. Isn't this asking for trouble?

Thanks
Minato

[johnaec]

I use 1/4" to RCA all the time, even XLR to RCA in certain cases, and haven't had any troubles. XLR to RCA or 1/4" is a bigger problem, as XLR is usually low-Z impedance. Watch your gain structure, and you shouldn't have any problems.

John

[mikebake]

So are you guys saying the LSR 6332 definately needs a Sub?

Ian
Who said that?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Well the general flow of the thread begs the question although the issue appears more to do with amp power and control.

Obviously room placement helps any system.

Another member kindly sent me some reviews.

I will probably audition next week. :) I am just annoyed I didn't jump on the 1500 sub bandwagon when it was happening. They would have been perfect.:(

.

Ian

[mikebake]

The woofer is very good in its range; the problem is apparently that its limited bandwidth forces the mid into an "improper" role, thus the system has issues. It has been said that these components in a 4 way would be a solution, or use a wider bandwidth woofer as in perhaps the Century Gold.
The drivers are good, but the system for home listening isn't particularly smooth, in spite of what the graphed response says. The midrange is forward. As for the sub, JBL of course offers/sells one, say that may tell you something. A sub may subjectively balance the mid, but that isn't really the issue.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Where are the L pads,

Oh No!

[mikebake]

"Basically - they need to be a 4-way with a nice 8-inch between the twelve and the five."

[speakerdave]

"Basically - they need to be a 4-way with a nice 8-inch between the twelve and the five."

Me, I don't think so. The basis of the design's clarity is the midrange and its bandwidth (250 to 2.2k). Be careful about judging these speakers too quickly. Is that your previously masked electronics or source material making that rasping noise? See my initial report on these speakers: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=822&highlight=preliminary

Re: L-pads. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Often cited as the site of distortion being introduced into the reproduction chain, this serious monitor omits them. You can change the balance of the mid/tweet visavis the woofer by about 1 dB. You can increase this by using the speaker's biwiring. Beyond that, work with your room.

Get a subwoofer. In the world of near and mid field monitors a speaker is not to be damned for leaving off bass reproduction at about 50 Hz. In the absence of a sub1500 the W1500 (?) has been recommended. I'm sure there are many others that would work.

David

[mikebake]

I'm not hearing any rasping noise, and the quote above is not mine. They are good speakers, and I don't have a problem with the bass. They were not designed for home use. There was background discussion concerning prelim. measurements with the idea of implementing a new x-over to improve them, and the conclusion was that it wasn't worth it because of the bandwidth limited woofer, etc. Other people who have heard them were not necessarily enamored of them for 2 ch music but thought they were quite good in an HT scenario. By contrast, and out of the box, the PT800 is noticeably smoother. And of course, I have two pairs of sub1500's and will use a pair with the LSR's later, but again, the issue was the mid and not really the bass per se.

[speakerdave]

Mike: Couple of misunderstandings here: I still can't find who said that thing about adding an 8". I missed the quotes--sorry.

Actually, it's not that my whole post is directed at you--quite the contrary. It's just a general response to the various questions about the speaker. You're right--they're not designed for home use, but there is no reason not to use them at home. They are designed to be used in a recording studio where the studio designer will work with the whole space to make the sound in there what it needs to be. Thus the lack of L-pads and contour tailoring for euphonia. If someone can understand this and not be critical of the speaker because it does not do things it was not designed to do, I think it can be a rewarding purchase.

David

[LowPhreak]

I am just annoyed I didn't jump on the 1500 sub bandwagon when it was happening. They would have been perfect.:(


JBL unpowered subs are nice to be sure, but check out the REL subs too Ian. Seriously. You might be surprised what a 10" or 12" driver can do when done right.