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Rolf
02-01-2007, 12:28 AM
I have a question to those who have moderator status and the power to close a thread and to ban people:

Why is it so important to close a thread just because there are arguments, different opinions? Are you seeing something we regular members don't?

Don't you think that this would die out by itself? That the ones involved finally will get tired?

I know I would have felt very insulted if I had been cut off just expressing my meanings.

Moderators, please explain.

Robh3606
02-01-2007, 07:35 AM
What everyone has forgotten

The intent of this forum is to develop a community of people that share a common interest in the products and legacy associated with James B. Lansing. To that end, it is my intent to foster as wide ranging discussion as possible. There is even a place for non Lansing related discussion - the "Off-Topic" forum.

This is not a place to blog, save the world, or discuss personal issues. We are here to discuss audio. That thread was a complete distraction from the stated purpose. The people banned were sock puppets for individuals who were previously banned for threatening and outrageous behavior. I am going to review the content and IP adresses again today to see if any one else will be joining them.

Rob :)

hjames
02-01-2007, 08:08 AM
What everyone has forgotten

The intent of this forum is to develop a community of people that share a common interest in the products and legacy associated with James B. Lansing. To that end, it is my intent to foster as wide ranging discussion as possible. There is even a place for non Lansing related discussion - the "Off-Topic" forum.

This is not a place to blog, save the world, or discuss personal issues. We are here to discuss audio. That thread was a complete distraction from the stated purpose. The people banned were sock puppets for individuals who were previously banned for threatening and outrageous behavior. I am going to review the content and IP adresses again today to see if any one else will be joining them.

Rob :)



Bless you for the reminder of our focus here!

And thanks for watching over us.

scott fitlin
02-01-2007, 10:46 AM
I have a question to those who have moderator status and the power to close a thread and to ban people:

Why is it so important to close a thread just because there are arguments, different opinions? Are you seeing something we regular members don't?

Don't you think that this would die out by itself? That the ones involved finally will get tired?

I know I would have felt very insulted if I had been cut off just expressing my meanings.

Moderators, please explain.But what are we supposed to do when the conversation, if you can call it that, is used for purposes of baiting others into arguments and fights?

Not to mention private conversations made public, the purpose of which is expressly to hurt, and belittle others, and continue to stir the pot.

Hey Rolf, you have been here for a while, and we seem to be getting a whole new crop of members, who want nothing more than to incite fighting and arguing and insulting and belittling others. What is the point of allowing useless dissention build up? It only cheapens the forum.

Some seem to want to speak only of what junk they think JBL is! Thats fine on another forum, some forums may even welcome that type of talk.

But, if left unchecked, these argumentative and insulting threads quickly spiral out of control.

Rolf
02-01-2007, 02:04 PM
Rob and Scott.

I understand your points. Maybe it is me. I don't really care what people write in those kind of threads. I read some, some not, but I rarely comment in them, and that is why I believe they will die out by themselves.

I can't see that there is the same "troublemakers" coming back again and again under different aliases as you do. If that is the case they surly must be stopped. I don't like harse tones and insulting anymore than you do.

You are both right, they can do this on other forums. You have both answered my questions so I won't need to ask them again.

And yes, I have been here for quite a while ... hopefully not made to much noise or yelling.

Titanium Dome
02-01-2007, 03:18 PM
It's a tough call. Sometimes I think it goes on too long, and sometimes I think it's cut off too soon. Moderators cannot win in these instances.

I'm in agreement with Rolf that the elegant way to handle it is not to respond. It's hard to stay out though, when you read some of the knuckleheaded stuff that gets written. I did manage to stay out of the last flame war, so maybe I'm learning. :dont-know

Mr. Widget
02-01-2007, 10:44 PM
That thread was a complete distraction from the stated purpose.


It's a tough call... Moderators cannot win in these instances.

I don't think most people realize just how much time is required reading over threads to make sure no one is being flamed or otherwise abused... many times these are threads that may not be of particular interest to a moderator and yet we still get bogged down in them... then there are those people who seem to have little else going on in their lives other than attempting to distract us from our stated purpose.:banghead:


I am going to review the content and IP adresses again today to see if any one else will be joining them
Thanks Rob... I for one really appreciate your dedication.


Widget

Rolf
02-01-2007, 10:52 PM
I don't think most people realize just how much time is required reading over threads to make sure no one is being flamed or otherwise abused... many times these are threads that may not be of particular interest to a moderator and yet we still get bogged down in them... then there are those people who seem to have little else going on in their lives other than attempting to distract us from our stated purpose.:banghead:

Thanks Rob... I for one really appreciate your dedication.


Widget

This is something I have been thinking about several times. As a moderator I guess one have to read everything that is written in the area he or she is responsible for. Must be quite a job.

boputnam
02-02-2007, 08:17 AM
...I believe they will die out by themselves.Unfortunately, not often (nor soon...) enough!


...I have been here for quite a while ... hopefully not made to much noise or yelling.Not at all.


It's a tough call. Sometimes I think it goes on too long, and sometimes I think it's cut off too soon. Moderators cannot win in these instances.Yea. The hardest part is when someone tags into a single person, or small element of the forum - deciding whether that merits action or not, is tedious. Best is to discourage any of that from anybody - this helps ensure things stay on-track more often. It makes the line less grey...


I'm in agreement with Rolf that the elegant way to handle it is not to respond. It's hard to stay out though, when you read some of the knuckleheaded stuff that gets written.Yup. And we have talked about it the same. Our trying to "talk someone down" off the ledge too often ends in larger disaster. You might have noticed these days, we mostly stay out of the dialogue, only to show up with the fire brigade, saying nothing and abruptly closing the building "for safety sake"...

Thom
02-02-2007, 10:10 AM
I have been away from my computer and apparently I missed something. But, unless we have a space problem, I don't get it. I'm seeing Frank Zappa and Tipper Gore here, not close, but if I let myself get all upset and come out sounding like a fool, because some one has pushed my buttons and I'm not clever enough not to get drawn into it that's on me. The politics and even religion, although I haven't seen it here helps build community. It would seem important not to let falsehoods be left as facts, if they are things that could cause a newbie a lot of trouble. If they are something like cables that can cost an awful lot of money and everybody must agree that some authorities don't agree with it should be left some how so that newbies know it's not the bible. Other wise if no one will be hurt maybe everything doesn't always need settled ( did I sound like I meant it) My first response to the beginning of this thread was to want to say "thanks mom" People get to know each other by arguing about things. If this sight is supposed to be strictly about exchanging information about Lansing pieces and designs it wasn't set up very well, but if it was I don't believe it would be used too much. An awful lot of it could be replaced by a 2000 pg FAQ sheet with a pretty good index. If I think a thread is out of line I can go away. That's easy. If someone thinks I'm too aggressive they can drop out If they keep popping up every where, won't listen and they're just a general nuisance that's different but that should be handled in steps and not be one persons decision (unless one person owns the board).

spkrman57
02-02-2007, 01:28 PM
I just don't post to threads that deviate from knowledge and experience with JBL products.

It is not worth my time to engage with some posters whose main intent is constant dialogue with no real purpose in mind.

I guess that is why I don't post very much lately!:(

Ron

johnaec
02-02-2007, 06:28 PM
I just don't post to threads that deviate from knowledge and experience with JBL products.Once I see a post take off in a wrong direction, I generally don't even open that thread anymore...

John

opimax
02-02-2007, 07:19 PM
I find the best way to get rid of problem posters is to ignore them. If they don't get a reponse or acknoledgement of their BS then they will go somewhere else. The biggest problem with this I find is getting people NOT to respond.

If the facts are incorrect they do need to made right but ignoring the ignorant is the my favorite way. I note when I get a no respose thread (question) and try to learn from it

A last comment ; I have pretty poor results when searching. I have seen others say this. It may be the searches and practice will help but I feel I should offer this feedback here. If i could more effectively use the feature less repetitive questions...

Mark

boputnam
02-02-2007, 09:45 PM
A last comment ; I have pretty poor results when searching. I have seen others say this. Yea, me too, and me too.


If (the search function was more effective...) i could more effectively use the feature (and there might be) less repetitive questions...(w/ edits)

We struggle with the Search function in vBulletin. Rest assured, it is no worse here than on other forums that use this software.

These forums, being near Blogs, are poorly organized (if at-all...) databases which grow exponentially, and typically without strict adherence to topic. This latter point makes Searching quite memory intensive, and Search-string dependant. Searching is optimized by knowing the context the topic was most meaningfully discussed. Those who have been here longer have a chance at getting "higher relevant hits"; others struggle with excessive mundane hits.

The only advice I have is to keep modifiying your search string in increasingly insightful/mundane ways (yes, I meant "mundane", because in this format you can only imagine how topics come-up!).

-----

Lastly, this place is really only worthwhile if we all try and stay close to the curb - stay on-topic / don't play in traffic. There are plenty other places in the WWW to explore our other opinions and interests. Here, if we can obviate the pedestrian topics and stay on stuff specific to advance our understanding of audio, acoustics and proper application of JBL engineering our efforts are so much more fulfilling. All the rest we are not well schooled-in, and suck at.

NewZenith
02-02-2007, 11:06 PM
I love LH; it is a community of fascinating characters, intelligent discussion and a storehouse of useful data. It has helped me navigate through the seemingly endless possibilities in speaker design. Although the moderators may not always make me feel warm and fuzzy; I still would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge what I feel is an incredibly important role that they play. The character of the moderators has a cohesive effect on the way Lansing heritage is perceived. The almost prestigious feeling this web site has. Not unlike the heads of a great institution, their role in setting standards and if need be enforcing them, is in my opinion indispensable for the long-term health of LH. I speak from firsthand experience, there has never been a time here when a concern of mine in regard to a post or thread was ever ignored. Those whose intentions are good, even if there execution is poor, have a voice!
I know I lose myself sometimes; I'm going to try to sit back and take a deep breath before writing a reply. You know if your hands are getting sweaty you're probably a little too worked up to write objectively.
I truly value membership on LH, I believe it is a privilege worth considering. Even some members whose online personas I do not particularly care for, I have respect for, there are some members here who show nothing short of brilliance, and that is a great thing to be a part of.
OK, so LH to me is a little bit like salt, it tastes grate but sometimes too much can raise your blood pressure.
Sincerely, NewZenith.

jim campbell
02-03-2007, 09:25 AM
Yea, me too, and me too.

(w/ edits)

We struggle with the Search function in vBulletin. Rest assured, it is no worse here than on other forums that use this software.

These forums, being near Blogs, are poorly organized (if at-all...) databases which grow exponentially, and typically without strict adherence to topic. This latter point makes Searching quite memory intensive, and Search-string dependant. Searching is optimized by knowing the context the topic was most meaningfully discussed. Those who have been here longer have a chance at getting "higher relevant hits"; others struggle with excessive mundane hits.

The only advice I have is to keep modifiying your search string in increasingly insightful/mundane ways (yes, I meant "mundane", because in this format you can only imagine how topics come-up!).

-----

Lastly, this place is really only worthwhile if we all try and stay close to the curb - stay on-topic / don't play in traffic. There are plenty other places in the WWW to explore our other opinions and interests. Here, if we can obviate the pedestrian topics and stay on stuff specific to advance our understanding of audio, acoustics and proper application of JBL engineering our efforts are so much more fulfilling. All the rest we are not well schooled-in, and suck at.
i like to think that non audio subjects can be discussed here and should be as this is a forum where one might find like minded people to discuss things with.if i was ever invited to another members home for a listening session and the only topic on offer was audio it might get old after a while.this forum attracts people who tend to be intelligent,educated,and informed on a wide variety of topics and that is why i log on.that being said i appreciate the work that the moderators and administrators do.many thanx

hjames
02-03-2007, 09:39 AM
i like to think that non audio subjects can be discussed here and should be as this is a forum where one might find like minded people to discuss things with.if i was ever invited to another members home for a listening session and the only topic on offer was audio it might get old after a while.this forum attracts people who tend to be intelligent,educated,and informed on a wide variety of topics and that is why i log on.that being said i appreciate the work that the moderators and administrators do.many thanx


See, the problem with offtopic online forums, compared to a discussion with another person in their home, is that there are so few indicators as you are speaking. Face to face, you can see folks tense up and cross their arms and give all those indicators that you know means you are touching on delicate ground. Face to face, you probably shift perspective or direction without a conscious thought - its just part of the art of conversation.
Besides, face to face, you can tell if someone has been drinking or whatever and take that into consideration, too.

With online forums there are no warning indicators - no funny voices or even inflection of the voice to indicate humor or parody, its just words on a screen. Often time the conversation goes on in bits and pieces over hours days or weeks - some threads here are years long!

Posts are easily taken out of context, or angry posts shoved in your face in a way that a few moments thought or some time to cool down first would avoid. Who would yell like that in someone's face?.

But - there is no threat of getting punched out in cyberspace ... tempers flare and it gets real mean real fast ...

Really, there are plenty of other places to discuss politics, religion, war, peace - all that hot-button stuff that gets so quickly out of shape here.

Heck - audiophiles can get into full blown war over tubes vs silicon amps -
why do we even need the offtopic places?
In the short year or so I've been here I've too often seen bad feelings from those "off-topic" threads quickly drift into discussions in other areas here!

Thom
02-03-2007, 01:45 PM
Oh boy. I think I hear that this sight exists at the benevolence of a major corporation, the members of which do not all agree it is a worthwhile endeavor or experiment. If that is how it is I guess that's fair. I just didn't get that impression when I first encountered this site. I guess if JBL foots the bill and therefore (I could still be reading things wrong, I do that real well) considers it theirs they really do have a right to determine what should be discussed here. Thing is I haven't really noticed them doing that, and one poster spent forever screaming shit about JBL, over a woofer warranty where they were probably foolish not to take care of him, but probably owed him nothing. But I don't get the idea of stewing over where the sight is going rather than just making a managerial statement. And, Giskard, unless I'm wrong again, some of what you have to say is straight from JBL and I didn't realize that at first and couldn't understand what seemed like proclamations. I really didn't know that there were "secret formulas" kept under lock and key. Like at Coke or KFC I really thought that was all made up by marketing when it came to audio, tho I'll believe you if I should. I get the impression that your saying that with some common sense on our part if sound is a bit of a hobby this sight can be worthwhile but if we piss off or make the wrong people nervous then at the very least no new information is likely to reach this sight till long after it's common knowledge. Okay. Makes one want to ask more questions but doesn't leave one feeling like they can. Oh I don't even post anywhere else currently but it seams if one wants to encourage someone to post about them on another sight the surest and quickest way to encourage it would be to ban them from here. Should just about guarantee it.

Titanium Dome
02-03-2007, 02:01 PM
Thom

I think you missed the general point, though you make some good observations in the process. This site really belongs to a very small group ( http://www.audioheritage.org/html/interact/who-we-are.htm ) who have registered, created, and maintain it with the help of a couple of others. Then there's a steering committee of nine (though one person seems to be on it twice), an administrator group of four, and a moderator group of seven.

On the intro page of the site

http://www.audioheritage.org/intro.htm

you'll find this explanation:


This site is a nonprofit endeavor that is supported by the contributions of its readers and web hosting services donated by CSD Internet. While we have the generous support of Harman International in providing information and access to their key staff for interviews, we are not affiliated with this or any other corporation. The costs of maintaining this site are borne by the developers and the donations of our readers. If you are interested becoming a financial contributor, please click the "Donate" button on the left.

Rolf
02-03-2007, 02:05 PM
The key is always under the carpet, or is locked in a chest. To open the chest you got to have a key. To find the key you have to look under the carpet.

That is how it is. As I have stated before, the inner circle knows. Guess you all have seen and understood this by now.

Titanium Dome
02-03-2007, 02:10 PM
Harman's role here has been to share information and resources that we couldn't get any other way. There is no simple reason for them to do this, like increasing sales (most here don't buy new products) or creating new markets (most of us don't go out and market new JBL products to our friends). Nevertheless, out of respect for the tradition of Lansing products, respect for the family, and respect for some key members of the site, they share many things here.

Of course, Harman employees come here from time to time, and that provides some insight and even some inspiration for them, but it also means that they see the cheap shots and unreasonable expectations of people who post here. Since I'm a big fan of JBL's new gear, I get pissed when its treated unfairly, so I can only imagine what it must be like to have worked so hard and put so much into a product only to see it panned by someone who's never seen it, never heard it, and hasn't put a dime in JBL's coffers in years. That has to be tough to take.

Nonetheless, Harman continues to favor the site and some of its contributors with amazing openness, and that trickles down to the rest of us. They can change their minds anytime they want to.

Titanium Dome
02-03-2007, 02:18 PM
Harmon does not hold any kind of financial interest in the site. That's why guys like you and me must donate from time to time. I try to do at least $25 a few times a year. This money keeps the site operating, and it also offsets costs on special projects.

It's true that Harman contributed some state-of-the-art components for the Project May endeavor, but there are costs that go far beyond that. Many members are donating time and materials for other parts of the project. Since I'm not part of the build team, I can give give money to help the project along, and so can others.

When the Project May is complete, we will all benefit from the knowledge that is shared from it. Even Harman might benefit, though I suspect if we knew everything Harman already knows, the project would be done by now. The key is that they are allowing the team to try. That's pretty cool.

Titanium Dome
02-03-2007, 02:30 PM
One of the things I liked about your post was


I get the impression that your saying that with some common sense on our part if sound is a bit of a hobby this sight can be worthwhile but if we piss off or make the wrong people nervous then at the very least no new information is likely to reach this sight till long after it's common knowledge. Okay. Makes one want to ask more questions but doesn't leave one feeling like they can. Oh I don't even post anywhere else currently but it seams if one wants to encourage someone to post about them on another sight the surest and quickest way to encourage it would be to ban them from here. Should just about guarantee it.

There's some truth here, especially the last part. That's right on.

As for the part about ticking someone off so that we lose the "inside track" that's always a possibility. Of course, it's a greater concern to those who are insiders than it is for those of us who are not. Your name and my name aren't on any of the lists in "Thom, part 1" and probably never will be, so we're outside by default. That's okay, really, because we have less to worry about and less to lose if things go sour.

Think about it from the standpoint of those who have established and maintained friendships with people at JBL/Harman. It can be hard to defend the people you hang out with sometimes, right? These folks with relationships at JBL/Harman might have a tough time explaining some of the crazy stuff that's posted here when a contact from Harman calls to ask why their brand new product is getting the shit kicked out of it by people who've never heard it and who think that 25 year old gear is inherently better without any critical examination being done. "We're sharing this information with these people why?"

It always helps to try to see as many sides to an issue as possible.

Rolf
02-03-2007, 02:32 PM
Harmon does not hold any kind of financial interest in the site. That's why guys like you and me must donate from time to time. I try to do at least $25 a few times a year. This money keeps the site operating, and it also offsets costs on special projects.

It's true that Harman contributed some state-of-the-art components for the Project May endeavor, but there are costs that go far beyond that. Many members are donating time and materials for other parts of the project. Since I'm not part of the build team, I can give give money to help the project along, and so can others.

When the Project May is complete, we will all benefit from the knowledge that is shared from it. Even Harman might benefit, though I suspect if we knew everything Harman already knows, the project would be done by now. The key is that they are allowing the team to try. That's pretty cool.

Maybe I should say: "I rest my case", but I do not agree that no LHL member will buy new JBL products. I am sure thy will, but the product must good and at a affordable price.

Regarding the "project May" I do not really know what to say, but it seems to me that it should be closed. Nothing is going on, and I do not want my donations waisted.

Titanium Dome
02-03-2007, 02:46 PM
Maybe I should say: "I rest my case", but I do not agree that no LHL member will buy new JBL products. I am sure thy will, but the product must good and at a affordable price.

Regarding the "project May" I do not really know what to say, but it seems to me that it should be closed. Nothing is going on, and I do not want my donations waisted.

Rolf, I understand your frustration. I wrote "most here don't buy"; I did not write "no one here buys." I believe there are good products at excellent price points right now.*

*In fact several members bought new products in the past few years, like the Performance Series, Studio L Series, and even the Northridge E Series. However, those who purchased Studio Ls didn't get the warmest reception, and the guy who posted about the E50 (me :o: ) got some pretty robust rebukes.

Zilch
02-03-2007, 03:29 PM
Regarding the "project May" I do not really know what to say, but it seems to me that it should be closed. Nothing is going on, and I do not want my donations waisted.The cabinets are currently under fabrication.

You're not keeping up with the project progress, apparently.... :(

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147156#post147156

Rolf
02-03-2007, 11:00 PM
The cabinets are currently under fabrication.

You're not keeping up with the project progress, apparently.... :(

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147156#post147156

Well, I have heard about this project since I joined the forum. Can't find out when I joined, but it must have been about the year 2000 or so. The "old" forum. Since that I have been following, but not "keeping up" in details about the project. Now I can, if I wish, read all about it, but must admit I am not doing it. My primary interest is not this project. I just think that this is taking too long. I have no idea how much work it takes to build a new speaker, and I can only hope that the result will be great, and that the forum members can order the final product.

Mr. Widget
02-03-2007, 11:31 PM
My primary interest is not this project.Even though I have spent several hundred hours directly and indirectly working on the project, I must admit it isn't my primary concern either.

I just think that this is taking too long.I think we can all agree on that.

I have no idea how much work it takes to build a new speaker...Then how can you possibly have an opinion on whether it has taken enough time or too much time? The fact is, we weren't going for something as simple as say a pair of 4343s... if we were they would be done. Since everyone who has generously offered their time also have real world obligations the process has been slowed significantly... sometimes siting on hold for months at a time, but rest assured it isn't dead and I for one have every anticipation of listening to the finished product in Don's living room at some point down the road.

...and I can only hope that the result will be great......as do we all.

...and that the forum members can order the final product.I doubt that will ever be a possibility. The primary intent of this project was to create something special for Don who has worked very hard to make Lansing Heritage a reality... as a side benefit there will be some trickle down knowledge... and perhaps some members will attempt to recreate part or all of the system.


Widget

Rolf
02-04-2007, 01:27 AM
Hi Widget.

I am sure that you have invested a lot of time, and probably money in the project. Still it is not your primary object. :blink:

The time for this project ... well, as you say ....

How can I possible say ... etc ... well, the thing I have done, building speakers took me about 7 days. I must admit that this was a "kit", but the result was fine. Not in the JBL finish ... brrr.
-------------------------------------------------------------

So .... all the time and money is just for Don? I really have to say: godom.

As much as I like Don, and appreciate his making of this site, I believe that the result of the project should be available to other members.

I have build one(1) unique thing ... better that everything else. I like to share it, don't you think that the result of the "may" should be given to others?

jim campbell
02-04-2007, 08:37 AM
Harmon does not hold any kind of financial interest in the site. That's why guys like you and me must donate from time to time. I try to do at least $25 a few times a year. This money keeps the site operating, and it also offsets costs on special projects.

It's true that Harman contributed some state-of-the-art components for the Project May endeavor, but there are costs that go far beyond that. Many members are donating time and materials for other parts of the project. Since I'm not part of the build team, I can give give money to help the project along, and so can others.

When the Project May is complete, we will all benefit from the knowledge that is shared from it. Even Harman might benefit, though I suspect if we knew everything Harman already knows, the project would be done by now. The key is that they are allowing the team to try. That's pretty cool.
i would love to hear from harman regarding their future efforts.if new gear that sounds like the vintage that we all know and love were available i would be clawing at the door.but not for a hundred grand.with vintage and all the maintenance issues,shipping,and the fact that none of it is getting any younger,soon there just wont be enough to go around.would harman consider marketing limited runs of of some of their more successful designs with updated drivers.at least then you could be fairly confident that you would have a reliable system for a decade or three.even if we could get the drivers new and build our own boxes..............

SEAWOLF97
02-04-2007, 09:01 AM
the name of the forum is HERITAGE. It really does not conjure up an image of interest in current products. From what I have seen, the ratio of owning new JBLs to vintage ones here is very small.

I was initially offended when someone went off on the JBL=junk, but loud threat , but in the current marketplace, JBL is either cheap mass market products or stratospheric un affordable high end speakers or cheap iPod portable speakers. This is why we seem to enjoy the speakers from JBL's golden era.

My supposition is that James would roll over in his grave if he saw some of the current offerings. :(

4313B
02-04-2007, 09:14 AM
As much as I like Don, and appreciate his making of this site, I believe that the result of the project should be available to other members.Maybe it will be. Who knows?

Robh3606
02-04-2007, 09:14 AM
My supposition is that James would roll over in his grave if he saw some of the current offerings. :(

I sincerely doubt that. I think he would be more than a little impressed with what became of his company. I think he would also be impressed with the cost vs. quality/performance ratios in these Best Buy lines that everyone seems so keen on putting down. I am also sure he would understand why they are there. To offer good performance at a reasonable price that is competitive with the competition to ensure their continued financial success. I purchased my first JBL's in the early 70's. They were expensive as hell compared to the competition at the time. The good stuff always is and frankly the lower lines are damn good for the money you pay for them.

JMHO Rob:)

jim campbell
02-04-2007, 09:34 AM
[quote=SEAWOLF97;147715]the name of the forum is HERITAGE. It really does not conjure up an image of interest in current products. From what I have seen, the ratio of owning new JBLs to vintage ones here is very small.
but why is that?is it no longer possible to duplicate that sound with new parts?only so many of the vintage items exist and that number is always diminishing.
I was initially offended when someone went off on the JBL=junk, but loud threat , but in the current marketplace, JBL is either cheap mass market products or stratospheric un affordable high end speakers or cheap iPod portable speakers. This is why we seem to enjoy the speakers from JBL's golden era.
my point exactly
My supposition is that James would roll over in his grave if he saw some of the current offerings. :(
no argument here

4313B
02-04-2007, 09:37 AM
the name of the forum is HERITAGE.Yeah but we all know that doesn't stop a whole bunch of people posting a whole bunch of nonsense here.
For instance, I think some spammers just posted moments ago. :rotfl:

SEAWOLF97
02-04-2007, 09:48 AM
I purchased my first JBL's in the early 70's. They were expensive as hell compared to the competition at the time. The good stuff always is and frankly the lower lines are damn good for the money you pay for them.

JMHO Rob:)

In my reading the 1954 audio mags, I found Hartsfields at about $600 new. Just ran that thru a converter that says that is a 2007 equivalent of $4500 , for 1. No stereo in those days.

I just opened a JBL China pair. While they sound OK, they look as if not designed to last longer than 5 years. Glue blocks already loose and flopping around. Black ash vinyl crap finish and really nothing to distinguish them from all the other Circuit City speakers.

Mr. Widget
02-04-2007, 10:08 AM
In my reading the 1954 audio mags, I found Hartsfields at about $600 new. Just ran that thru a converter that says that is a 2007 equivalent of $4500 , for 1. No stereo in those days.

I just opened a JBL China pair. While they sound OK, they look as if not designed to last longer than 5 years. Glue blocks already loose and flopping around. Black ash vinyl crap finish and really nothing to distinguish them from all the other Circuit City speakers.
You know, we have had this exact conversation 30 or 40 times over the years... isn't it getting a little old?

Of all the vintage brands that are still with us, JBL and Klipsch are the two most successful and they both sell tons of rather anonymous black vinyl boxes to stay profitable... profitability was always Mr. Lansing's biggest problem. I applaud his uncompromising approach, but in the end it did him in.


Widget

BTW: We are way off topic once again.

jim campbell
02-04-2007, 10:16 AM
i just picked up some jbl chinese venue series monitors at future shop(canuck circuit city)for 150.cdn open box returns for about 100 off retail.while they are for the fourth line system to watch movies in bed i think the used psb's i got for 25 bucks sound way better.if a set of 4350'sold for under a g note in the 60's how much should they sell for new in todays dollars.

SEAWOLF97
02-04-2007, 10:56 AM
i just picked up some jbl chinese venue series monitors at future shop(canuck circuit city)for 150.cdn open box returns for about 100 off retail.while they are for the fourth line system to watch movies in bed i think the used psb's i got for 25 bucks sound way better.if a set of 4350'sold for under a g note in the 60's how much should they sell for new in todays dollars.


$6387.83 in the year 2006 has the same "purchase power" as $1000 in the year 1965

Titanium Dome
02-04-2007, 11:41 AM
the name of the forum is HERITAGE. It really does not conjure up an image of interest in current products. From what I have seen, the ratio of owning new JBLs to vintage ones here is very small.

I was initially offended when someone went off on the JBL=junk, but loud threat , but in the current marketplace, JBL is either cheap mass market products or stratospheric un affordable high end speakers or cheap iPod portable speakers. This is why we seem to enjoy the speakers from JBL's golden era.

My supposition is that James would roll over in his grave if he saw some of the current offerings. :(

What is your proposed cut off date? If I'm reading you correctly, then moderators should close threads that don't conform to what you are characterizing as "heritage." Perhaps we could say that 1979 is the cut off of the golden era?

A better argument would be to only allow discussions of products produced before Mr. Lansing's death in 1949. Moderators please delete all threads discussing products after 1949. :p


Or we could follow the site's purpose as posted in the introduction:


Our mission is to record the accomplishments, history and legacy of James Bullough Lansing. While his name may not be known to many, the legacy of his work touches millions of people. That legacy is the genesis of the loudspeaker industry. He was instrumental in the development of the some of the first successful loudspeaker products. The quality of his work resulted in the Lansing name being associated with the finest in sound reproduction technology. His name is carried on in the corporate identity of two companies, JBL and Altec Lansing. The purpose of this site is to pay homage to the accomplishments of the man and his namesake companies.

The last two sentences indicate that the heritage is alive in the companies that succeeded him. AFAIK, one of those companies is still very active and carrying forth that heritage today.

If not, then Giskard should retract all the stuff that he posts that improves and advances the application of that heritage, and Don shouldn't go to Japan to see $60k speakers, and there should be no Project May, and I shouldn't write about the Performance Series or god forbid the E50, because none of it is heritage if we are only looking backwards to see what Jim Lansing wrought.

I'm a little long-winded here, and I hope it doesn't sound harsh. If so, I apologize. I'm totally cool with those who love the golden era, and I even have some of those and enjoy them. I'm not cool with the idea that the golden era is the only good era or even the best era. There's room for all of us to appreciate the legacy that appeals most to us.

Zilch
02-04-2007, 11:49 AM
Strictly read, "Heritage" goes more to the tradition, i.e., the concepts embodied in vintage designs, than to the early implementations themselves. In a substantial sense, a passion for vintage "correctness," while laudable from a historical preservation perspective, runs contrary to the presumably larger objective of quality sound reproduction, so much so that the result is easily recognized as a separate genre. I hesitate to attach the label "Old-fashioned" to it, but that may in most respects be apt.

While it can be difficult to discern the Lansing heritage in today's low-end offerings, it is certainly there, evolved in response to and in accomodation of the contemporary marketplace. Adapt or die; the vintage beasts are now at the curb for the taking. What's at Best Buy is a part of the Lansing heritage as well.

On the other hand, I have particular difficulty with the continuing cavil in these forums as to the absence of quality contemporary options but at stratospheric expense. Not so. With a little bit of effort, anyone here can build for themselves, using JBL's latest technologies and highest quality drivers, first class systems that fully embody the Lansing heritage and sound better than much of what is available in the marketplace. These forums point the way, in considerable detail.

"Yeah, but I don't want to have to build it. I just want it available to purchase...."

Well, it IS available; ~$10K is the entry level.

"$2000 is my limit."

I can't help you, until you change your attitude about DIY.... :p

4313B
02-04-2007, 11:58 AM
You know, we have had this exact conversation 30 or 40 times over the years... isn't it getting a little old?This was hit on this the other night and the conclusion was that it just isn't worth questioning anymore. They are allowed to have the same arguments thousands of times as long as those arguments don't lead to personal attacks.

4313B
02-04-2007, 12:07 PM
Giskard should retract all the stuff that he postsI've suggested a global delete time and again to no avail. Nothing would please me more than to delete all 7,745 posts. I ask for it every Christmas and birthday. Instead I get a package of wool socks and a screwdriver set from Sears.

Zilch
02-04-2007, 12:12 PM
Instead I get a package of wool socks and a screwdriver set from Sears.


:rotfl:

Robh3606
02-04-2007, 12:28 PM
On the other hand, I have particular difficulty with the continuing cavil in these forums as to the absence of quality contemporary options but at stratospheric expense. Not so. With a little bit of effort, anyone here can build for themselves, using JBL's latest technologies and highest quality drivers, first class systems that fully embody the Lansing heritage and sound better than much of what is available in the marketplace. These forums point the way, in considerable detail.


Hello Zilch

I also share your enthusiasm for DIY however there are many hidden costs. You are looking at it from the perspective of someone who has the tools in hand. That $2000 number you have there is completely un-realistic for a new guy jumping into this cold. That would just cover your CLIO and the Behringer. It wouldn't begin to cover your time, let alone materials for cabinets and crossovers. Then you have your shop tools for cabinets and potential software costs for tuning and crossover design. Just because you then have the rudimentary tools doesn't mean you will be able to successfully pull a design off. I am not trying to dis-wade anyone from DIY, I would like to see more of it. Just want to be sure anyone who's goes this road realizes it isn't all flowers and roses. It can be hard work to get things right and financial commitment for the tools needed should be considered as well.

Rob:)

Zilch
02-04-2007, 01:02 PM
That $2000 number you have there is completely un-realistic for a new guy jumping into this cold.Hi, Rob.

I'm making the distinction between developing vs. just building according to designs documented here.

Several members have done this with considerable satisfaction, from all reports and indications.

In my experience, $2000 will build quite a nice pair of speakers; $5000, an order of magnitude better.

[For $1000, it's a bit tougher.... :p ]

jim campbell
02-04-2007, 01:15 PM
$6387.83 in the year 2006 has the same "purchase power" as $1000 in the year 1965
so a system that cost 3 grand in 1965 should be around 20 g's today.i could live with that.that is why i have to wonder why 2 15's and a horn or 2 command the prices they do.after all most of the heavy r+d has been done years ago.those who already posess the high end vintage stuff may be reminded that with each passing year that it is harder and harder to find, repair,or even get it to your door in one piece.

Zilch
02-04-2007, 02:09 PM
After all most of the heavy r+d has been done years ago.Kinda looks like 476Be was designed from scratch, actually.

[Not likely I'll ever have one at hand to know for sure, tho.... :p ]

4313B
02-04-2007, 02:28 PM
that is why i have to wonder why 2 15's and a horn or 2 command the prices they doIf they were priced lower they wouldn't sell. Priced as is, they are selling like crazy. JBL and all the suppliers are backed up with demand. Someone set the price just right.
after all most of the heavy r+d has been done years agoThat was all left behind. This is the new stuff. There is little comparison.

duaneage
02-04-2007, 06:56 PM
Hi, Rob.

I'm making the distinction between developing vs. just building according to designs documented here.

Several members have done this with considerable satisfaction, from all reports and indications.

In my experience, $2000 will build quite a nice pair of speakers; $5000, an order of magnitude better.

[For $1000, it's a bit tougher.... :p ]

I've done three different designs/ projects and documented them as best I could.
One was a 4411 clone, strictly a copy of a classic. Another was a redesign of a inexpensive speaker, the L20T, so simple anyone with a circular saw and a jigsaw could build without any special software. And the third used a new available speaker ( control1 woofer) with a third party tweeter where the crossover network was explained easily.

Maybe we need more simple starter projects or midrange redesigns? Zilch has several great threads on Mini JBL speakers, Sealed box redesigns, and projects that explore combinations of drivers no one thought of.

DIY , for me, is the best area of LHS.

Robh3606
02-04-2007, 07:33 PM
Hi, Rob.

I'm making the distinction between developing vs. just building according to designs documented here.

Several members have done this with considerable satisfaction, from all reports and indications.

In my experience, $2000 will build quite a nice pair of speakers; $5000, an order of magnitude better.

[For $1000, it's a bit tougher.... :p ]


Hello Zilch

All I was saying is that $2000 is not your real cost starting from scratch. It's actually a bit more when you consider the basic tools for cabinet building as an example. If you already have them it's one thing, if you don't it can add a good deal to the cost and can actually be the decission maker if you don't. Even building an existing design you still need measurement capabillity.



DIY , for me, is the best area of LHS.

Hello duaneage

I have my most fun doing DIY as well

Rob:)

4313B
02-04-2007, 08:13 PM
projects that explore combinations of drivers no one thought of.That you are aware of. ;)

Maybe we need more simple starter projects or midrange redesigns?

DIY , for me, is the best area of LHS.I'm surprised none of you have thought to set Zilch up with LEAP. He has the time to do all this stuff. You all should get him the tools. For less than 25 cents per forum member you all can get him set up. Do it. He's earned it.

LEAP-5 Complete
EnclosureShop and CrossoverShop Software 150-0555 $1,495.00

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 05:46 AM
If they were priced lower they wouldn't sell. Priced as is, they are selling like crazy. JBL and all the suppliers are backed up with demand. Someone set the price just right.That was all left behind. This is the new stuff. There is little comparison.
but who is buying them?for whom is that a good price.it seems that unless i start buying winning lotto tickets i might as well forget about anything even close to that kind of money
in other words seawolf is right on the money.crap from circuit city or incredibly high priced stuff out of reach to all but the wealthy and the rest be damned.if thats the case i doubt that i will ever be enamored with harmon/jbl no matter what they donate here

hjames
02-05-2007, 05:58 AM
but who is buying them?for whom is that a good price.it seems that unless i start buying winning lotto tickets i might as well forget about anything even close to that kind of money
in other words seawolf is right on the money.crap from circuit city or incredibly high priced stuff out of reach to all but the wealthy and the rest be damned.if thats the case i doubt that i will ever be enamored with harmon/jbl no matter what they donate here



Well - maybe its an assessment of the new speaker market.
If we aren't in the market for $60,000 - what WOULD we spend on new speakers?

How many folks are going to buy, say, $25,000 soeaker systems?
How many folks are going to buy, say, $10,000 speaker systems?

Finally, how many of us would drop, say $5,000 on a speaker system - new or old?

And what kind of annual sales does it take to keep the JBL division solvent?

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 06:19 AM
brand loyalty to jb was built on the big sound one got from the vintage systems.the stuff they sell at circuit city is just one of many polite,unobtrusive speakers.they sound largely the same as a hundred other brands.we bought them before because they stood out in a crowd.i dont see that now.the point is that if they now are being marketed to only to the wealthy few why should we consider them worthy of our loyalty.maybe we can be like vw rabbit drivers with the mercedes key chains,and wear jb tee shirts when we listen to our chinese jbl systems

hjames
02-05-2007, 06:54 AM
brand loyalty to jb was built on the big sound one got from the vintage systems.the stuff they sell at circuit city is just one of many polite,unobtrusive speakers.they sound largely the same as a hundred other brands.we bought them before because they stood out in a crowd.i dont see that now.the point is that if they now are being marketed to only to the wealthy few why should we consider them worthy of our loyalty.maybe we can be like vw rabbit drivers with the mercedes key chains,and wear jb tee shirts when we listen to our chinese jbl systems


Again - like Giskard says, its a price point thing.

I have my L36s that I bought new in 1976, so I consider myself one of the enlightened from the old days.
And they were the cheapies in the line! I paid $400 for the pair back then - so that's the equiv of, say, $2500 or so for a stereo pair today?

Better speakers would be more - like I said before - $5,000 or so?

I really think the number of folks who would spend $5000 on just stereo speakers these days (remember, they still need an amp and the other sources) is a smaller percentage of the general population than it once was.
Most folks just want sound from unobtrusive small speakers - and it costs a lot more to make "audiophile" speakers when its such a small market (e.g, cost per unit vs total number of units). Most folks are happy with "Good enough" ...

If small, cheap chinese-made speakers is what most of the market wants, JBL has to follow that market to sell enough speakers in volume to maintain their business. Its just common sense.

And this is a REALLY old discussion here ... sigh ...




$638.783 in the year 2006 has the same "purchase power" as $100.00 in the year 1965

4313B
02-05-2007, 06:56 AM
but who is buying them?for whom is that a good price.it seems that unless i start buying winning lotto tickets i might as well forget about anything even close to that kind of money
in other words seawolf is right on the money.crap from circuit city or incredibly high priced stuff out of reach to all but the wealthy and the rest be damned.if thats the case i doubt that i will ever be enamored with harmon/jbl no matter what they donate hereI think you should write your congressman or representative lamenting the demise of the middleclass and its buying power.

maybe we can be like vw rabbit drivers with the mercedes key chains,and wear jb tee shirts when we listen to our chinese jbl systemsThere you go! Now you're getting the hang of it. :)

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 02:19 PM
I think you should write your congressman or representative lamenting the demise of the middleclass and its buying power.
There you go! Now you're getting the hang of it. :)
instead of lying awake nights dreaming up smug one liners for those opinions you dont agree with perhaps its time to obey your own instincts and retreat back into the tech pages you crave.my opinion is as valid as yours.

Thom
02-05-2007, 03:05 PM
An awful high percentage of JBL owners were probably do it yourselfers through the sixties. If you did JBL any other way it was incredibly expensive. JBL was proud of their drivers and putting them in the customers hands was one way of showing the difference between JBL and anything else. Put a Bozac driver in one hand and a JBL in the other. There was no comparison. It wasn't even Maytag and hotpoint, It was way beyond that. Good for them that they have learned to be more profitable but I no longer know that because it's a JBL it's good. It's more like Just because it's JBL doesn't mean it's crap. I can't automatically lay down a stack of bills for some JBL stuff without knowing something about it or knowing the salesman or having some knowledge. It's to bad that they didn't break it down into JBL and "made by JBL" but they went the way they went and that's how it is. If JBL doesn't have any special interest in this sight then why (real question) does giskard get his knickers all in a knot over some issues? I thought it was over them being benevolent and wanting them to stay that way. Sure it's stupid to expect JBL to act as though we are in a socialist economy but that doesn't explain taking some things so personal. It's not for me to judge it's just that every time I think the picture is finally coming into focus someone bumps into the tripod again or something.

4313B
02-05-2007, 03:08 PM
instead of lying awake nights dreaming up smug one liners for those opinions you dont agree with perhaps its time to obey your own instincts and retreat back into the tech pages you crave.my opinion is as valid as yours.I have no idea what you are talking about. Your response to my post is completely whacked. :rotfl: But that's the main problem here, if people don't spell everything out in lurid detail then some people are bound to miss the point. Let's get a show of hands. Anyone else confused at my post?

Here is your post:


but who is buying them?for whom is that a good price.it seems that unless i start buying winning lotto tickets i might as well forget about anything even close to that kind of money
in other words seawolf is right on the money.crap from circuit city or incredibly high priced stuff out of reach to all but the wealthy and the rest be damned.if thats the case i doubt that i will ever be enamored with harmon/jbl no matter what they donate here

Here is my point another way:

The gap between the rich and the poor is widening. Middleclass buying power is shrinking. People shop at Walmart and support companies like Walmart because doing so fits in with their reduced buying power. Did you watch the Democratic Party's response to the Bush State of the Union? If you had, then you'd know exactly where my comment came from. If you watch Charlie Rose then you'll know where my response came from. If you watch Lou Dobbs then you'll know where my response came from. You would also know that my response was in direct support of yours. Instead, you gave your response not one iota of thought, rather you're worried about what I do at night. It's funny. :p

You're the third person that has suggested I shut my mouth and simply post technical data. Why don't you start a poll to that effect. :) Many a person has asked me in private why I bother rolling in the mud with you people. You really, truly aren't worth my time, and you reinforce that fact every time you create posts like this. :)

grumpy
02-05-2007, 03:26 PM
that's where it's headed unless I/you/we do something about it... is what I got out of it.
:scoot: -grumpy

4313B
02-05-2007, 03:33 PM
that's where it's headed unless I/you/we do something about it... is what I got out of it.
:scoot: -grumpyThanks Grumpy. :) I believe at one point the situation was compared to the robber barons in the early part of the last century. The point was also brought up that middleclass wages were getting the tar kicked out of them. As has been said, we really should be able to afford the current middleclass gear from JBL without too much trouble. It seems that such is not the case.

Zilch
02-05-2007, 03:36 PM
If JBL doesn't have any special interest in this sight then why (real question) does giskard get his knickers all in a knot over some issues?Insults, typically, potentially jeopardizing the continuing (and enhanced) availability of resources that are important to the membership here.

Ignorant insults....

SEAWOLF97
02-05-2007, 04:49 PM
:) Many a person has asked me in private why I bother rolling in the mud with you people.

A quote I always liked:


"If you roll in the mud with pigs , you both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 05:12 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about. Your response to my post is completely whacked. :rotfl: But that's the main problem here, if people don't spell everything out in lurid detail then some people are bound to miss the point. Let's get a show of hands. Anyone else confused at my post?

Here is your post:



Here is my point another way:

The gap between the rich and the poor is widening. Middleclass buying power is shrinking. People shop at Walmart and support companies like Walmart because doing so fits in with their reduced buying power. Did you watch the Democratic Party's response to the Bush State of the Union? If you had, then you'd know exactly where my comment came from. If you watch Charlie Rose then you'll know where my response came from. If you watch Lou Dobbs then you'll know where my response came from. You would also know that my response was in direct support of yours. Instead, you gave your response not one iota of thought, rather you're worried about what I do at night. It's funny. :p

You're the third person that has suggested I shut my mouth and simply post technical data. Why don't you start a poll to that effect. :) Many a person has asked me in private why I bother rolling in the mud with you people. You really, truly aren't worth my time, and you reinforce that fact every time you create posts like this. :)
perhaps i would be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt if you had not been in hot water with the moderators for this kind of sniping before. i guess it is hard to see the support in posts like,"you really,truly arent worth my time,and you reinforce that fact every time you create posts like this."

boputnam
02-05-2007, 05:23 PM
...this kind of sniping before.If you look at it as a style of humor, it is quite a bit more interesting and enjoyable. AFAIK, Giskard doesn't get any particular joy out of arguing...


...i guess it is hard to see the support in posts like,"you really,truly arent worth my time,and you reinforce that fact every time you create posts like this."That is merely his opinion - there is no guarantee or implication it is shared by others.

It's really easiest to not try and "school" anyone out here, Jim - there is no winning; there is no losing here. These exchanges just get more and more muddy.

Best to get back to building / refurbishing speakers...

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 05:31 PM
An awful high percentage of JBL owners were probably do it yourselfers through the sixties. If you did JBL any other way it was incredibly expensive. JBL was proud of their drivers and putting them in the customers hands was one way of showing the difference between JBL and anything else. Put a Bozac driver in one hand and a JBL in the other. There was no comparison. It wasn't even Maytag and hotpoint, It was way beyond that. Good for them that they have learned to be more profitable but I no longer know that because it's a JBL it's good. It's more like Just because it's JBL doesn't mean it's crap. I can't automatically lay down a stack of bills for some JBL stuff without knowing something about it or knowing the salesman or having some knowledge. It's to bad that they didn't break it down into JBL and "made by JBL" but they went the way they went and that's how it is. If JBL doesn't have any special interest in this sight then why (real question) does giskard get his knickers all in a knot over some issues? I thought it was over them being benevolent and wanting them to stay that way. Sure it's stupid to expect JBL to act as though we are in a socialist economy but that doesn't explain taking some things so personal. It's not for me to judge it's just that every time I think the picture is finally coming into focus someone bumps into the tripod again or something.
thom i have no trouble with them becoming profitable.the point i make is this that there are those who seem to believe that we owe them some kind of homage because they built some classic products in the past.but they have abandoned those types of systems and concentrated on mass market stuff that is generally what the forum members reject in the persuit of a classic,vintage sound.then with the profits design and build classic systems that will be for only the very wealthy and often foreign markets.i bought my first set of l26's,the components for my custom l300's,and my l220's the same way most of us did back in the day,by the sweat of my brow and making sacrifices in other areas.but now i think that is not possible for most and it is the policy of the corporate owners and not the reduced buying power of the greenback that i blame.despite the fact that they have shown some generosity in resources i still am not convinced that harmon/jbl as it exists today is owed much in the way of kudos for the triumphs of the past.

Mr. Widget
02-05-2007, 05:32 PM
perhaps i would be more inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt if you had not been......my reading of your post and then Giskard's was that he was violently agreeing with you... I don't think a benefit of the doubt was necessary... seems like another typical internet failure to communicate situation.


Widget

jim campbell
02-05-2007, 05:41 PM
If you look at it as a style of humor, it is quite a bit more interesting and enjoyable. AFAIK, Giskard doesn't get any particular joy out of arguing...

That is merely his opinion - there is no guarantee or implication it is shared by others.

It's really easiest to not try and "school" anyone out here, Jim - there is no winning; there is no losing here. These exchanges just get more and more muddy.

Best to get back to building / refurbishing speakers...
point taken bo.if apologies are in order i humbly offer them

boputnam
02-05-2007, 05:43 PM
point taken bo.if apologies are in order i humbly offer them:spchless:

I can't believe it! That is the first time I can remember of a Mod risking stepping into the 'do, and not getting blasted with it! :duck:

Thanks, Jim. No apologies needed...


...my reading of your post and then Giskard's was that he was violently agreeing with you... Bingo...

4313B
02-05-2007, 06:49 PM
A quote I always liked:


"If you roll in the mud with pigs , you both get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."


Or my personal favorite version of the saying - "Arguing with xxxxxxxx is like wrestling in the mud with a pig, sooner or later you realize the pig likes it."

If you look at it as a style of humor, it is quite a bit more interesting and enjoyable. AFAIK, Giskard doesn't get any particular joy out of arguing...Evidently my humor is best served face to face.
if apologies are in order i humbly offer themNo problem. Sorry for any confusion.

duaneage
02-05-2007, 09:24 PM
That you are aware of. ;)


Touche' , although pairing JBL drivers with other companies' offerings is a little like miscegenation. I'd like to cross generations a bit and use older stuff with new and see what happens, although we would not want any drivers accused of cradle robbing.

jim3860
02-10-2007, 09:50 PM
Rob and Scott.

I understand your points. Maybe it is me. I don't really care what people write in those kind of threads. I read some, some not, but I rarely comment in them, and that is why I believe they will die out by themselves.

I can't see that there is the same "troublemakers" coming back again and again under different aliases as you do. If that is the case they surly must be stopped. I don't like harse tones and insulting anymore than you do.

You are both right, they can do this on other forums. You have both answered my questions so I won't need to ask them again.

And yes, I have been here for quite a while ... hopefully not made to much noise or yelling. i have certainly noticed on other forums that once drama starts its hard to stop. there is uasally a core group of people that start and keep up the BS. REGARDS JIM

SEAWOLF97
02-11-2007, 07:08 AM
Or my personal favorite version of the saying - "Arguing with xxxxxxxx is like wrestling in the mud with a pig, sooner or later you realize the pig likes it."


yes, I am attempting to let ssss ramble on about his aaaaaaaaaaaa's and just look the other way. Z seems to be picking up the torch.