Altec Santiago 878A Speakers

[Nightbrace]

I am wanting to find out anything I can about these speakers. I am wondering why the Altec Santiagos are not regarded very highly by anyone? They cost $1050.00 a pair in 1974, putting them on the high end of anything available at the time... Is it mainly because they do not use the same woofer as the Altec 19 why they are not appreciated and collected?

I am hoping to pick up a set of Santiagos for my bedroom Overall will they sound very close to the Altec 19's, or will they have a distinctly unique sonic character? What differences will there be between them and the Altec 19's? I have read that they make stellar bass, even a bit lower and more dynamic than the 19's (but are a bit lacking in the midbass), and also that they tend to have more of a peaked midrange (which I'm told can be solved by adding more damping around the horns) and tend to roll off even earlier than what the 19's do. Is there anyone out there that can confrim this? And is there any reason why they roll off sooner?

The Horns are the 811's with 806-8A compression drivers/ Woofers are 15" 413-8A woofers which utilize 4" edgewound voice coils similiar to the 19's/ The efficiency of these speakers is very similiar as well. These particular speakers have N801-8A crossovers..

[Nightbrace]

Will they be appreciably better as compared to a more modest offering like the Altec 14?

[Storm]

According to my price sheet the 878A Santiagos were priced at $529.00 a piece, $1,058.00 for a pair.

I would imagine, that even though they were higher priced by $50.00 a speaker compared to the 846 Valencias - time only told that the 411-8A woofers, just don't compare to 416-8B's.

If you like the sonic characteristics of the 19s and want an additional system - I would purchase a pair of 846 Valencias. There is a pair on in Texas right now.

:blah: ...but of course, this is only my opinion.

Has anyone on this forum ever did a direct A/B comparison on the 411-8A woofers VS. 416-8B woofers?

Any opinions would be great.

Thanks.

-Storm.

[jim campbell]

im thinking of bidding on those,if i can find a forum member in the area to box them up and ship them

[clmrt]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6631&highlight=411-8A

[Nightbrace]

According to my price sheet the 878A Santiagos were priced at $529.00 a piece, $1,058.00 for a pair.

I would imagine, that even though they were higher priced by $50.00 a speaker compared to the 846 Valencias - time only told that the 411-8A woofers, just don't compare to 416-8B's.

If you like the sonic characteristics of the 19s and want an additional system - I would purchase a pair of 846 Valencias. There is a pair on in Texas right now.

:blah: ...but of course, this is only my opinion.

Has anyone on this forum ever did a direct A/B comparison on the 411-8A woofers VS. 416-8B woofers?

Any opinions would be great.

Thanks.

-Storm.

I am thinking the same, want something a little different.. Why have the same speaker? Where are the Valencias you are talking about advertised?

[Storm]

Jim -

I would buy those. The seller is one of the members on this site. I am sure he would have no problem to help box them up and find a shipper.

Just like SPWAL says with the 19s - the Valencias are becoming more scarce and will eventually either be too expensive to obtain for most, or there won't be a supply.

I have been watching eBay and since I purchased mine about 10 months ago, I have seen maybe 5 pairs - if that.

Good luck.

-Storm.

[Nightbrace]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6631&highlight=411-8A


Thank you SO much for this thread, it did not come up when I searched for some reason, looks like they are a worthwhile speaker system to persue, especially for the money..

[Nightbrace]

Jim -

I would buy those. The seller is one of the members on this site. I am sure he would have no problem to help box them up and find a shipper.

Just like SPWAL says with the 19s - the Valencias are becoming more scarce and will eventually either be too expensive to obtain for most, or there won't be a supply.

I have been watching eBay and since I purchased mine about 10 months ago, I have seen maybe 5 pairs - if that.

Good luck.

-Storm.

WHere are these Valencias you speak of?

[Storm]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190075208678&rd=1&rd=1

[louped garouv]

I have been watching eBay and since I purchased mine about 10 months ago, I have seen maybe 5 pairs - if that.

5 pairs showing up annually is not a real small amount IMO


see how many original RLA or John Curl Symmetry crossovers you see on EBay in the next year...

[spwal]

first things first, what do you think the reserve is? and you would think that chitown would have altecs come up more often...

do you check craigslist?

do those things come with screens?

I feel blessed that the 19s came up, otherwise i would be looking for the late model valencias. Im surprised that they put such large components in such a small box...

[Storm]

Louped -

That is not alot, compared with the demand in the far East for such speakers.

5 pairs is a mere drop in the bucket.

I feel blessed to own a pair, just like anyone else would be blessed to own the paragon or L300 Summit.

SPWAL -

I bet the reserve is at least $800.00, which is still a fair price. I asked him, but he would not tell me.

I do know, from his posts that he paid $240.00 - lucky guy!

-Storm.

[louped garouv]

Storm,

you make it sound as if every resident of the far east is waiting, money in hand, for someone on Ebay to list whatever piece of old american audio....

Honestly, many asians do not use Ebay at all.... they have a different auction site that is much more popular...

and the pieces that do end up being shipped to the orient, from what I understand at least, tend to be in pristine original condition and somewhat, if not exceptionally, rare...



I still think at least 5 showing up is not a small amount.... they are not exceedingly rare...

[Zilch]

Thank you SO much for this thread, it did not come up when I searched for some reason ....It was also linked by louped garouv in Storm's thread about these from last week, in which you posted just two days ago:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14038


... looks like they are a worthwhile speaker system to persue, especially for the money.We ain't reading the same thread, obviously.... :p

[Nightbrace]

It was also linked by louped garouv in Storm's thread about these from last week, which you posted in two days ago:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14038

We ain't reading the same thread, obviously.... :p

Thanks for pointing this out... What I meant is that for $500, they are a good deal... And when I posted in that thread, I never even heard of the Santiago or needed to know anything about them, so I overlooked this thread not thinking anything of it... But I agree that after reading that thread that they will be very difficult to deal with unless I swap in different woofers.

[Nightbrace]

I am well aware of their bass inadequacies, but I am a bit puzzled why they drop off even sooner than the Altec 19's in the UHF's? Don't they employ nearly identical compression drivers and horns? Not to mention very similiar networks? And what woofers can be successfully swapped in to improve the bass response?

[louped garouv]

I believe that the M19s have some HF boosting going on in the networks....

Plus the M19s use 802-8G drivers....

if you want UHF from an Altec big box, buy a UHF driver and add some supplemental....

I use a pair of bullets for this, even though they don't go really high
(they do sound good though (to me at least))

[Nightbrace]

What I'd like to know is if it would be worth upgrading the woofers to the 416-8B woofers and porting the cabinets along with modded Altec 19 crossovers to help with the high frequency roll off issues... Or would it be cheaper and easier in the long run just to buy a set of Valencias and be done with it??

As I said, these will be for my extra room and don't need anything too spectacular and would rather not spend the money for a set of Altec 19's.

When it gets down to it, what I'd really like to know is if you guys think I'll be more satisfied with the Altec Santiagos or a more modest offering like the Altec Model 15 or Model 14?

[Zilch]

Judging from your avatar, you will only be satisfied with P-Audio.... :p

[How friggin' clever is THAT? :blink: ]

[SEAWOLF97]

Judging from your avatar, you will only be satisfied with P-Audio.... :p


JBL="Junk But Loud" :)


interesting way to make friends..Nightbrace.
so if JBL is junk , what IS good??


lots of people think they are being funny calling BMW - break my wallet - but I think have never owned one...(I prefer Black Magic Woman, and I own a 540 - the V8)

Have you owned JBL's ?? Why were they junk ??
OR are you just trying to be a provocateur ??? :blink:

[Zilch]

Put up the pic of 2312s in your EN3s, instead.... :applaud:

[Zilch]

Well, according to YOU, they're better than ANYTHING Lansing....

[Zilch]

"Altec+JBL=Crap." Lovely.

Take yer meds, pal. You've lost it.

How long have they kept you confined like this? :p

[Zilch]

The correct spelling is "Poseur." :D

*****

No, no. Those are "LN3."

I want to see EN3s with 2420s hangin' out the back.

[How they did it.... :yes: ]

[Nightbrace]

Zilch, can't you take a friggin' joke? I am proud to say I got my parts for the EN3's ordered, what you think of my components?

These part numbers are all from Parts Express. Can I get by putting two 10 uf's in parallel to make 20 uf. Same for the 25 uf and 3 uf to make 28 uf? Can I make the assumption that both of those coils in the tweeter circuit are .25 mH?

2 ea 266-906 2.20 mH Erse Iron Core 16 ga Inductor
2 ea 255-262 1.70 mH Jantzen Air Core 18 ga Inductor
2 ea 255-218 .30 mH Jantzen Air Core 18 ga Inductor
4 ea 255-214 .25 mH Jantzen Air Core 18 ga Inductor
4 ea 027-340 10 uf Non-polarized Electrolytic Cap (10+10=20 uF)
2 ea 027-438 25 uf Dayton Met/Poly cap
2 ea 027-418 3 uf Dayton Met/Poly cap (25+3=28 uf)
2 ea 027-332 4 uf Non-polarized Electrolytic Cap
2 ea 027-410 1 uf Dayton Met/Poly Cap
2 ea 027-412 1.5 uf Dayton Met/Poly Cap
2 ea 004-7.5 7.5 ohm 10w Non Inductive Resistor
2 ea 004-40 40 ohm 10w Non Inductive Resistor

Using these L-pads.
http://www.oldhifi.com/jbllpads.jpg

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=42&stc=1&d=1052164851

I already have 2405H's in the mail.. Ready to go...

Using Allied drivers in these cabs for now until I get these networks.. I was too embarrased to post what I had in these cabs and I'm glad you called me on it, and can't believe you were the only one to recognize that I had to cut out the back of the cabs and make some mods to accomodate for the horns...

Now that the mutual BS is over, what do you think?

[Nightbrace]

The correct spelling is "Poseur." :D

*****

No, no. Those are "LN3."

I want to see EN3s with 2420s hangin' out the back.

[How they did it.... :yes: ]


I apologize, I can't even get that right :)/// From now on I'll be careful what I say around here,, yet another lesson in humility... Promise to only post about things I KNOW about and not ask any STUPID questions, ist is about time I grow UP^^ and do things for myself.. Sorry for EVER asking anything from you or anyone... I can tell that its been nothing but a BIG waste of time.

[Nightbrace]

The correct spelling is "Poseur." :D

*****

No, no. Those are "LN3."

.

[ ]

GD< thats 1 MISTAKE that wasn't my fault and your even calling me on it... Geez... What did I do to deserve all of this?? The person I bought them from called them LN3's and I assumed he was correct. How in the Heck am I supposed to know what they are without asking you guys? I apologize for asking, and promise not to ask questions about things that I SHOULD know, just because YOU do... Am I only allowed to post here when I KNOW MORE than anyone else in the world... Calm down man..

[Zilch]

I'm not sure that's 2 x 0.25 mH in the UHF, tho I recall some discussion.

Do you have a citiation for that information here?

******

Yes, you can parallel the caps as you suggest....

[Zilch]

Am I only allowed to post here when I KNOW MORE than anyone else in the world... Calm down man..I screw up often trying to help. It's not a big deal. Friends here will always correct me. I get smacked around quite a bit, in fact.

The posturing is the problem. You'll get respect if you at least do the homework and TRY to get it right. You can't make this an ego trip, and you've got to keep fact, opinion, and fantasy separate. Most important of all, you can't fake it here.

Lots of stuff you can learn by researching the forums. It ain't a spoon feed here for regulars....

[Nightbrace]

No I don't, there's no citation that I can find anywhere, still searching. The parts are on their way, I guess I can always re-order, Parts-Express is great...

BTW<< For a guy who knows nothing at ALL about crossover design, I'm not doing too bad am I? The L100's and L36's I can handle, this is uncharted territory for me, we'll see what happens, couldn't stand what I had created with my "frankenstein monster". Thats what I get for taking others' advice rather than doing the proper research and learning things for myself... Although they didn't sound too terrible, they were never right from day 1, happy I'm back on track.... And yes I was embarassed to post the pics of them, and rightfully so.

So far the only networks I've done some Mods to are my the N15's I built. When I get the chance I'll post some pics. And even then I used the network schematics from the 4401 as a guide. The values I used were slightly different, but not much.

I know nothing about crossover theory, but at least am competent enough to build networks from a schematic, not a highly technical skill, I know, but its a start... It takes time and a lot of knowledge to understand all this right away, I've never had to deal with network mods much until these L15's. I was never really satisfied with them and I liked the looks and the small foot print for my desk, and thought it was worth attempting this. Luckily, they wound up sounding better than I ever thought, and was amazed at what minor changes in the networks can do to completely alter the resultant sound..

So you can only imagine the self-doubt that crept in when I got confronted with building something from scratch! It was a little too overwhelming for me and I took the advice of a friend and "expert" who turned out to be completely wrong. I should have just made my way back here with my tail between my legs to ask guys who DO know what they are talking about... But I hate to admit when I am clueless about something.. its not something anyone likes to admit..

BTW<< Is it a necessity for me to order an RTA like this one to verifiy my findings more concretely?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-661

How serious do I need to get before its worth my money for a computer based RTA?

[Nightbrace]

I screw up often trying to help. It's not a big deal. Friends here will always correct me. I get smacked around quite a bit, in fact.

The posturing is the problem. You'll get respect if you at least do the homework and try to get it right. You can't make this an ego trip, and you've got to keep fact, opinion, and fantasy separate.

Lots of stuff you can learn by researching the forums. It ain't a spoon feed here for regulars....

Its good to know that I'm not the only one, but you must admit that there are people here who get an EGO-trip and tend to be-little those without superior knowledge. To some that can seem offensive... Its only right of you or someone else to point out your mistakes... IMO will be added in front of anything I'm not 100% certain about as not to offend anyone... IMHO means I'm 90% certain. Is there a smiley with his hands up in the air for when I have no clue? Which unfortunately is about 90% of the time. I know how important it is in life to be able to enjoy music without constantly worrying about how to get things sounding better.. Thats for the designers and engineers to worry about. Me I like to listen and I KNOW what I like to listen to.. Which is half the battle.

As I tell people, I define music in 2 ways. "Music is the only thing in life that CAN be perfect" And "Music is the key that unlocks the Soul" And I only hope that I can help someone achieve better sound so that they can experience music the way it is meant to be heard.

[Zilch]

The Behringer is a very good RTA; it carried me a long way, and I still use it today. The AutoEQ is also helpful in telling you what still needs tweaking to match your desired response curve. You can likely get the mic and cables, and perhaps a mic stand, too, thrown in, at Guitar Center for that PE price.

Computer-based RTA is cheaper actually. Research the forums for suggestions. TrueRTA is one, and the lowest resolution is free. You have to get a mic (the Behringer one is good,) stand with mini-boom, and preamp with phantom voltage supply to run it, tho. I think you'll end up at half the cost of a hardware RTA of equivalent resolution.

Several members here have recently gotten up and running with software-based measurement systems. You can't do this stuff without RTA, minimum, nope....

[Nightbrace]

Been doing good with a dB meter and my ears up to this point :), now its only the matter of understanding why the stuff I like to listen to sounds good. And to get my systems to duplicate it.. I guess some people take a lifetime and never really understand this fully. Thanks for the suggestions... Hopefully there's some method to my madness :)..

[Nightbrace]

What are your thoughts as to the values of the coils in the tweeter circuit??

[Zilch]

What are your thoughts as to the values of the coils in the tweeter circuit??I don't know. Look at Giskard's equivalent circuits for N333, how he handled 2405, and other similars.

I think that's a tapped-inductor attenuator, and it may be possible to emulate it with a proper-valued pair.

If we're lucky, he'll see this and answer the question, as he's well familiar with these networks.

I'm confident you'll have resolution of this by the time you have them built, so I'd proceed with your plan....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2167&stc=1&d=1078715321

[Nightbrace]

He doesn't bother with me anymore as we have 2 completely different tastes in speakers and I think he "knows" that anything he says I'll take with a grain of salt, even though I truly do respect his opinion and know-how when it comes to "newer" JBL gear to which I know nothing.. The 4313B's with charge-coupled networks build for me by Paul C. have rocked my world... So I guess there is some middle ground to be had between the boring speakers of the 80's and the highly energetic speakers of the 70's.

You think I could use that Behringer as a DAC in lieu of my Musical Fidelity A3 24-bit 192 Khz DAC?

[Nightbrace]

It is labeled .25 mH on the schematics, so I assumed that both were the same... We'll see.

What I am worried about is that I will not be using the "exact" compliment that the S21 calls for and I may have to so some tweaking.. No one has yet to answer my question about the differences between the 121H woofer and the 2203H. Even though I have 2203H woofers, they use the 121H cone kit and are now the acoustical equivalent to the 121H. The LX30 networks actually call for 124A/H woofers in these cabs, but they would be nearly impossible and ULTRA expensive to find. I still have not ruled out using 128H's which turned out to be the best run wide open in these cabs based on the curves that I think you provided me with way back when... My question is, how will they sound when the LX30 networks are applied? Is that something that cannot be answered until I have them mounted?

I guess the same could be said about both the LE5-6 and 2405H's I'll be using, but I consider these to be close enough. The reason why I am using the LE5-6's instead of something a little more contemporary like the 104H-2(3) is because I've always thought of these to be the best sounding midrange transducer ever made by JBL (or at least that I've ever heard) and they should work very well in these cabs which were originally designed for the LE5/2105. I could always switch to the LE5/2105 mids I guess to get them perfect, but these speakers should be built to be perfect for me, not for what JBL thought would work the best. As I've found out, I haven't always seen eye-to-eye with many of their designs. I am a little concerned as well with the HF part of the X-over as I will be using transducers that have less of a rising response and may need to change the values a little... I guess I should have waited before ordering, maybe I can call up parts express and see if they can hold off on the order till I decide for sure..

Thats where the Behringer comes in I take it.. I just hate to build something thats set in stone as I know I'll be wanting to make some mods and really don't know how to alter the networks to suit my own tastes. I think the bottom line is that I'm stuck with the drivers I've selected so its gonna have to come down to getting the crossovers just right.

I'll post this info along with a lot of other stuff on a new thread, there's a ton of info all over the place regarding these speakers.. I have a feeling this is a speaker a LOT of people are going to want to duplicate. Any idea where to get the exact cabinet plans for others who may want to build their own cabs to duplicate these one day? Would posting a diagram of the front baffle and interior dimensions be adequate enough?

[Zilch]

It is labeled .25 mH on the schematics, so I assumed that both were the same... We'll see.See my post above for a different edition of the schematic. It's a tapped autotransformer.

I'm close to an answer, but I closed the window, of course.... :p

Edit: Well, here's a clue. A series/parallel combination summing to 0.25 mH, possibly:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3092#post3092

[Zilch]

You think I could use that Behringer as a DAC in lieu of my Musical Fidelity A3 24-bit 192 Khz DAC?I don't know, never tried that. Ian was thinking about looking into that at one time.

Go to the Behringer site and download the manual. It may say something about it....

[Nightbrace]

Looks like my order never went through as all the items are still in the cart, man I gots to get some sleep...

Here's my "revised list" Turns out they make a single 27 uF cap...

I went with the "cheaper" 20 guage inductors, do you think this is a good choice? Or is the 18 ga really necessary? I got some time now to decide, not in a big hurry.

2 ea 266-906 2.20 mH Erse Iron Core 16 ga Inductor
2 ea 255-262 1.70 mH Jantzen Air Core 18 ga Inductor
2 ea 255-028 .30 mH Jantzen Air Core 20 ga Inductor
4 ea 255-026 .25 mH Jantzen Air Core 20 ga Inductor
4 ea 027-340 10 uf Non-polarized Electrolytic Cap
2 ea 027-942 27 uf Jantzen Met/Poly cap
4 ea 027-910 1 uf Jantzen Met/Poly Cap (1 + 27 = 28)
2 ea 027-332 4 uf Non-polarized Electrolytic Cap
2 ea 027-412 1.5 uf Dayton Met/Poly Cap
2 ea 004-7.5 7.5 ohm 10w Non Inductive Resistor
2 ea 004-40 40 ohm 10w Non Inductive Resistor

[Zilch]

Read my post #39, above.

You don't want 4 x 0.25 mH, rather 2 x 0.10 mH and 2 x 0.15 mH instead, for starters.

Go back to 18 ga on the 0.30 mH inductor.

You don't want electrolytics. Use metallized polypro. I wouldn't pay extra for the 1% caps, either.

[Nightbrace]

Thanks Zilch, still revising the list as we speak, I think should just wait to see if Giskard would be nice enough to lend his expertise to the situation...

What are your thoughts on the 121H woofers?? And how much will the 128H woofers change if I apply these networks??

[Zilch]

What are your thoughts on the 121H woofers?? And how much will the 128H woofers change if I apply these networks??I have no experience with either of those woofers at this level, sorry....

[Nightbrace]

Before I get to nitty-gritty of all this, I want to make sure that I'll like what the result is, having never heard anything at all like what I am contemplating building, I am a bit scared.. Its like going on a blind date, it could be really good, or the opposite of what I am hoping for..

My fav JBL speakers are the L300, no doubt about it.. And besides the typical bass peak of the 4311B's, these are about my favorite bookshelf speaker. As are the L100 with LE5-6 mids. The L36's I have never been able to get rid of either, I love the way they sound, just can't stand those horrible sounding woofers which are anemic in the mid bass.

Will these speakers wind up being more similiar to the high energy detailed response JBL's that I am accustomed to like the ones above, or more like the "newer" mid 80's JBL sound like the the L112's? I may be contradicting myself when I say that I like the sound of the 4313B's, but they are uniquely enjoyable. I'd have to have $1000 to sell them, and even then you'd have to pry them away... Very hard to describe why I like them, but they just sound "right" for just about everything. Even that said I still prefer a higher energy speaker like the L300 over these.. And as you've probably noticed I am a bigger fan of the Altec 19's than just about any vintage speaker. The only thing I wish they did a little better was the UHF's which roll off considerably at about 15 kHz.. other than that there is really nothing I would change about them. The 240Tis I bought were very disappointing, and I don't want to wind up with something that sounds like these. To me it was a NIGHT and DAY difference between them and the Altec 19's. I know that I cannot duplicate the Altec sound with anything but Altec, so maybe thats not a good baseline...

Basically what I am looking for is a more controlled version of the L36 (which is why I chose the LE5-6 mids) with better upper bass, smoother mid-low bass, with crisper highs and a more focused and controlled midrange for vocals and instrumentals without sacrifycing all the detail that I have grown accustomed to. Do you really think these EN3's with these networks will get me at least to some of these goals? OR will they sound closer to something like the L112's which to me are very un-inspiring and a little muffled.

With the modest networks in the L36's they tend to get a little overbearing at times, but I must admit that at times I wonder why JBL uses crossovers at all as they simply sound great with great recordings with the modest filtering that they do have (which I guess is why I still use them as an evaluation tool when I get new material and new equipment)

Hopefully this helps give you an idea of what I'm into speaker wise and I hope and pray that these are at least closer to what I am looking for than what I already have.

I have sold the L200B's in hopes that these will take their place. It makes me wonder why I ever sold the L300's in the first place, but "I got an offer I couldn't refuse."

[Nightbrace]

I have no experience with either of those woofers at this level, sorry....


What do you mean at this level? Am I still batting in the minors at the very thought of using these woofers?

[Zilch]

You are basically building L65s.

Build them and then decide.

Nobody can listen for you.

Tweak to taste.

Stop agonizing and just do it. :thmbsup:

[Reread my posts in the AM. I'm still editing....]

[Nightbrace]

Will DO, I'm not agonizing, just would like to have a general idea of what to expect thats all.