2435 HPL- 2 way 750hz

[kartsmart]

I am thinking of doing a 2 way system for home audio use.
Could the 2435 HPL be used down to 750 hz or lower with good results ? If so what horn could be used ?
I will start with these simple questions first to see where it will go.
thanks

[Zilch]

From my experience, 750 Hz is too low, though it might work on some horns, like 2352 or Harman Consumer biradials. Giskard recently suggested the drivers themselves are good down as low as 650 Hz; I just haven't tried that. 4338, for example, is crossed at 750 Hz with 435AL (2431H equivalent).

I'm currently running 2435HPL on PT-H1010 at 800 Hz, and they sound guite nice. At least one other member here is using that combination with good results:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=143808#post143808

Start with that, perhaps, using the Timbers "Key" compensation filter and a frequency adjustable active crossover. It'll get the answer for you toot sweet.

Those waveguides are inexpensive, $94 apiece. 2352 is $300 list, and you'll pay more like $450 or more each for the Harman Consumer horns, if you can get them at all.

[Robh3606]

Hello Zilch

Gregs filter is tweeked for a particular horn/driver combo. It's not optimized for the PTH1010. It really needs to be fine tuned for the driver horn combo it is used for. It's a great jumping off point however you won't get the best performance out of that combo using it as is. It's not fair to Greg to use it beyond what it was engineered for without pointing this out.

Rob:)

[spkrman57]

Crossover points are best derived after horn/driver analysis.

Ron

[Zilch]

It's not fair to Greg to use it beyond what it was engineered for without pointing this out.Thanks, Rob, for reiterating that.

I think it's pretty clearly shown in the link I provided.... :thmbsup:

[DJ Vincenzo]

wow a lot of peeps have the 2435's. arent they 2 lous for home use?

[Robh3606]

Hello Zilch

I have been playing around with Crossover Shop and working on a crossover for the 2435 with existing horns I have on hand. I am using the PTH1010 in my active set-up so I decided to see what an passive network would look like using Gregs filters and notes I made from Project May. It looks good so far on paper. Could sound like crap so I have to actually build it and get my Le-14H-3'S into cabinets so I can measure them up and see what happens on the other end. I woudn't go to 750Hz on this horn/waveguide that's for sure.

A reference on how these networks are put together from Project May


Rob:)

[Zilch]

Your green curve and my green curve (Greg's filter) seem well matched. I'd say the sim is good.

What's the AM6212 sim curve look like?

Though I haven't A/B'd them, it may make sonic trouble in the last octave, though it seems to be working in your system.

My experience was that 2435 is not as amenable to compensation up there as is 2431 :dont-know

[Zilch]

Well, we're doing a bit of a semantics dance here. I try to avoid using the word "boost" anymore, because it confuses issues. Yes, as I understand it, AM boosts, in the active sense, above 0 dB, above 20 kHz, which may itself be problematic, since it's additional energy going into the driver outside the operating range, or "out of band," outside the design envelope, assuming source material is provided up there.

But, the issue I'm raising here relates to the total compensation WITHIN the band, achieved via midband attenuation: AM attempts to flatten the last octave with additional compensation via a steepened slope. Timbers lets it roll off. I'm saying I can flatten 2431's last octave response, notwithstanding it's already having more extended VHF, easier than I can 2435's.

And I'm postulating that it's more difficult, i.e., requires more energy, to accomplish that with 2435's beryllium diaphragm than 2431's aluminum, as it requires transitioning and operating the 2435's stiffer diaphragm more from pistonic mode into breakup mode above 15 kHz, as illustrated in Button's 2002 AES Convention Paper:

[Thom]

This isn't sarcastic just in case it sounds like it. When you get through with all your computer simulations and then I'm guessing you probably do tweaking with a mic and analyzer ( actually I see reference to that I just sometimes lose track as to which is which) do you end up with a finished product that's tits or after the equipment is put away, or maybe it's still there do you tweak to make it more "listenable"? I guess I mean do your ears over rule the instruments. I'm not sure if that was clear. If this was the wrong place for this question tutor me, I'm listening.

Also is it easy to tell if my 2435 suspension has been glued?

[kartsmart]

Has any one tried a round tractrix horn on the 2435s ?
Ron do you have any in your collection to try ? A 350 hz horn might be about right, or I could through one together and give it a try ( might take a little time )

[Zilch]

There is a very real and tangible reason why some of us are willing to forgo a few k on the top end with the aluminums and switch over to the berylliums, especially the aquaplased berylliums. I really don't care that my 435Be's are 7 dB down at 20 kHz.I'm not arguing in favor of one driver over another, or one filter over another, or one horn over another, or being critical of any of it. I'm actually listening to the various combinations here myself, trying to ascertain the differences, sonically, and the reason(s) behind them, i.e., the "real and tangible" you cite.

In asking Rob to post the AM6212 curve, I wanted to point out that there are two fundamentally different approaches to the application of compensation to these drivers illustrated in this work:

1) Apply basically linear CD compensation above mass breakpoint and let the driver roll off "naturally" in the VHF, or,

2) Apply additional compensation at a steeper slope in the VHF region as required to flatten the VHF out to 20 kHz.

Mr. Widget's earlier observations on the sonic consequences of the latter approach are on point:


The plot may show a response out to 20KHz yet it sounds hard and bright with no air, or conversely it may look soft on top yet sound really good.

Clearly, there are limits to how hard particular combinations may be "pushed," and it's important as we work through this, each for ourselves, and together as a group, to understand what those limits are, and why they exist.

Again, it's not intended as criticism; I'm merely submitting my own experience with this for consideration: 2435 doesn't "push" as easily or gracefully as 2431 via compensation contouring....

[Zilch]

This isn't sarcastic just in case it sounds like it. When you get through with all your computer simulations and then I'm guessing you probably do tweaking with a mic and analyzer ( actually I see reference to that I just sometimes lose track as to which is which) do you end up with a finished product that's tits or after the equipment is put away, or maybe it's still there do you tweak to make it more "listenable"?Yes, all that.

Mostly, it works.

Some of us never put away the gear permanently, is all.... ;)

[4313B]

I'm not arguing in favor of one driver over another, or one filter over another, or one horn over another, or being critical of any of it. I'm actually listening to the various combinations here myself, trying to ascertain the differences, sonically, and the reason(s) behind them, i.e., the "real and tangible" you cite.

In asking Rob to post the AM6212 curve, I wanted to point out that there are two fundamentally different approaches to the application of compensation to these drivers illustrated in his work:

1) Apply basically linear CD compensation above mass breakpoint and let the driver roll off "naturally" in the VHF, or,

2) Apply additional compensation at a steeper slope in the VHF region as required to flatten the VHF out to 20 kHz.

Mr. Widget's earlier observations on the sonic consequences of the latter approach are on point. Clearly, there are limits to how hard particular combinations may be "pushed," and it's important as we work through this, each for ourselves, and together as a group, to understand what those limits are, and why they exist.

Again, it's not intended as criticism; I'm merely submitting my own experience with this for consideration: 2435 doesn't "push" as easily or gracefully as 2431 via compensation contouring....I deleted my post because I went back over the entire thread and realized my post was irrelevent. I simply don't have the time or inclination to get thoroughly involved and/or read all these posts any longer and cannot therefore, add anything of value to them.

This quoted snippet of my post is out of context, as was my entire post with respect to this thread. Basically, wrong thread, and I didn't realize that this was the thread Rob wanted to post one of the Project May schematics in. No biggie.

[Zilch]

The 2435 is pistonic at 15K. The 2431 is not from the graphic you posted. What does that mean??? It's apples and oranges. Do you think that +3dB at 30khz will cause the Be diaphram to break up????Button's paper states that a primary design objective of 2435 was for it to operate pistonically throughout the audible range, and that was achieved up to 15 kHz. It's also implicit that "pushing" that driver beyond there may be sonically counterproductive.

Giskard repeatedly says the drivers must be used "according to their intended purpose" for successful application. Well, in detail, we're not privy to that, and thus we make the best of what information is availible to us in combination with our own empirical determinations. I THINK that's part of the process, even at JBL....

[4313B]

Giskard repeatedly says the drivers must be used "according to their intended purpose" for successful application. Well, in detail, we're not privy to thatWhich is precisely why JBL did away with the Loudspeaker Component Series more than twenty years ago. Nobody knew what to do with the drivers they were buying and it wasn't a profitable venture. There's no point in selling a $100 driver if you then need to follow up with $500 worth of customer support for it. JBL is privy to the application of these drivers as are the Pro end users.

[Zilch]

wow a lot of peeps have the 2435's. arent they 2 lous for home use?I presume you mean "too loud."

The answer is "No."

If you read and understand Rob's posts, you'll see that 10 - 15 dB of the compression driver's SPL capability is consumed in performing the requisite compensation to achieve the desired frequency response with constant directivity horns/waveguides....

[Zilch]

Has any one tried a round tractrix horn on the 2435s ?
Ron do you have any in your collection to try ? A 350 hz horn might be about right, or I could through one together and give it a try ( might take a little time )My one experience with a Tractrix was that it didn't cut it in the VHF. You make one for 2435, and there are several members who would likely be pleased to measure it for you.

The Engebretson horn works for 1" drivers. It might also be worth scaling that design for the 1.5" exit 243x series.

[John W]

Here is a round horn I turned for the 2435s, sort of tractrix like.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=140628&#post140628
Even if I clean the wax out of my ears, I can't hear 15kHz as it is.

[Zilch]

Well, we've got to keep perspective here, too. Kartsmart wants to build a two-way with 2435. Presumably, that means having a reasonably useable and uniform dispersion pattern across the spectrum, hence, constant directivity, I would think....

[kartsmart]

That is correct Zilch, at least the goal :banghead:

[Zilch]

O.K., Rob and I both like the PT-H1010, and I have the similar-response PT-Fs, as well.

Looks like I have most of the parts to build Rob's filter, so I'll do that and compare the results with all three.

I've already built a biased version of the Timbers filter:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=143808#post143808

My initial work was done with AM6212 filter, so I have those on hand, including a biased version. :thmbsup:

[merlin]

Reading through this I have to ask what is the point? Surely you are going to get superior results using these fine drive units as intended?

[Zilch]

Reading through this I have to ask what is the point? Surely you are going to get superior results using these fine drive units as intended?Tell us what that means, Merlin.

In Pro, they were intended for use in Vertec HF clusters on narrow waveguides.

In Consumer, a similar equivalent is used in K2-S9800, three-way.

[merlin]

I'm no expert Zilch but it seems to me that in neither application are they "pushed", nor expected to cover more than half the audible frequency range. Doesn't it make sense to use something more suited to the top octave and beyond? Genuinely interested.

[Zilch]

Doesn't it make sense to use something more suited to the top octave and beyond? Genuinely interested.The advantages inherent in two-way designs are well known. With each advance in technology, like the availability of 2435 and 435Be, comes a re-assessment of what is possible, which tradeoffs are reasonable in accomplishing it, and which design approaches produce the optimal result.

See David Smith's sidebar ("2, 3, or 4 Way") on this subject here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/4430-35.htm

[merlin]

Hmm, I do wish Giskard would leave his posts up - sometimes they are an oasis of reason!

Zilch, I don't disagree with the advantages of two ways provided the right tools are available for the job. Certainly the 435al sounds rough as a badgers arse if it's left to run out to my uncultured ears - the 435be seems to fair slightly better. But for the best HF performance, certainly in my limited experience, I'd say JBL got it right when utilising the 045's. I look forward to the 476be -a major step up in every way.

[Zilch]

Certainly the 435al sounds rough as a badgers arse if it's left to run out to my uncultured ears.... What horn are you using? What filter?
... the 435be seems to fair slightly better.Well, let me go listen more closely, then.

[They're playin' in the other room.... :p ]

[merlin]

I'm using the 4338 horn at the moment and crossing over at 750hz with the digital filter in a Lyngdorf TDA2200. I'm applying no EQ so it's not really a fair comparison. I'm not clever enough to do my own passive filters!

[Zilch]

I'm applying no EQ so it's not really a fair comparison. I'm not clever enough to do my own passive filters!I need to build up some spares, then, apparently.... ;)

[4313B]

Hmm, I do wish Giskard would leave his posts up - sometimes they are an oasis of reason!Because this kind of activity drives me nuts. I find it pointless. I don't care one whit about 2431's or waveguides. I want to see more of what people like John can turn out.
Certainly the 435al sounds rough as a badgers arse if it's left to run out to my uncultured ears - the 435be seems to fair slightly better.Your assessment of the 435Al is the general consensus. I forgot, are yours aquaplased? G.T. had to aquaplas them for use in the Array. I personally think the 435Be is better than slightly.
But for the best HF performance, certainly in my limited experience, I'd say JBL got it right when utilising the 045's.People at JBL really like them. They certainly are a big step above the old ring radiators and domes.
I look forward to the 476be -a major step up in every way.It really is a fantastic piece of hardware.

[Robh3606]

"Looks like I have most of the parts to build Rob's filter, so I'll do that and compare the results with all three."

Hello Zilch

That filter is a work inprocess as I learn the software and get a better understanding of how the networks actually work. Until I get measurements from a bass driver in my cabinets it is guaranteed to be revised. I posted it with the Project May graphic to show what the basic topollogy was for a passive version of Gregs filter. I also wanted to show that the basic topology was good for different horns but that they would indeed be different filters. I don't think it's ready to be built just yet.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

"I don't think it's ready to be built just yet.No problem, Rob. I'll wait for you to finalize your design.... :thmbsup:

[Zilch]

I heard tell that there was also a plan afoot on the forum to buy a pair of my 4355 and 4344/4345 networks and then reverse engineer them real fast and post the schematics. :applaud:I trust you know that ain't me, Giskard.

There's nothing more boring than building more than one of any network. Even the second one for a pair is a drudge.

[That's why I mirror-image them, so I hafta pay attention and stay awake long enough to complete the task... :p ]

[merlin]

Because this kind of activity drives me nuts. I find it pointless.

I do see your point.


Your assessment of the 435Al is the general consensus. I forgot, are yours aquaplased?

I really haven't checked Giskard - mine came installed in a shiney pair of 4338's. Must find out now - but it sounds like there's are really nasty mode somewhere below 15khz. The 435be is a lot smoother as you say - I was being polite ;)


I need to build up some spares, then, apparently....

Many thanks for the thoughts Zilch. My intention at the moment is to stick with the active route - with some simple and judicious use of EQ. It's easy and works quite well IME. I'm only here for the music!

[4313B]

I really haven't checked GiskardI checked, they're not. No biggie.
My intention at the moment is to stick with the active route - with some simple and judicious use of EQ. It's easy and works quite well IME. I'm only here for the music!Good plan. Sounds like you've been talking to the right people. :)

[DJ Vincenzo]

I presume you mean "too loud."

The answer is "No."

If you read and understand Rob's posts, you'll see that 10 - 15 dB of the compression driver's SPL capability is consumed in performing the requisite compensation to achieve the desired frequency response with constant directivity horns/waveguides....

which desired freq? 750 X point? it doenst seem far from the 1000 jbl designed it for.......but im exicted...my brand new AM6400/95's just got drop shipped from Cali and im gonna try switching out the highs with these 2435's i bought on ebay a while back this weekend.

[Zilch]

which desired freq? 750 X point?Not the crossover frequency, the desired frequency response, i.e., flat, in this case....

[Zilch]

Hi, Rob.

Would you run optimization on this topology for 2435HPL on PT-H1010 using your measurements for me, please?

It's kinda labor-intensive tweakin' this the "hard" way. :biting:

I've replaced the series notch filter with a broadband low-Q parallel one.

Same one as I used here, actually:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=135719#post135719

Frequency response is appreciably closer to flat, now +/- 2 dB or better. Compare to green curve in top group here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=143808&postcount=66

Compare filter impedance and phase here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=137142&postcount=28

Orchid HF curve is windowed.

M552 highpass is set at first mark past 900 Hz, i.e., 920 Hz, if accurate....

[Robh3606]

Sure when I get home I will run it and post it for you. The blue traces are the generic filter. The first set is the original. The second is with L3 changed to .050mH

Rob:)

[Zilch]

COOL! Thank you, Rob.

I'll go try that. Looks like 0.06 may be a good compromise not to pull down 14 - 16 kHz any.

The Spice sim looks very much like AM6212/00, but without that circuit's low impedance problems (~2 Ohms above 10 kHz).

[Zilch]

Wonder what they will sound like???I listened to V1 most of the day today, and they were fine. It's an easy add-on once you've got the basic filter built. They don't sound bad with just that, either. :thmbsup:

Biggest change came from switching to active. LE14H-1 certainly likes being connected direct, and the HF gained substantial clarity on the T-Amp as opposed to 3110s. :p

You're much faster than me and my soldering iron with these tweaks! Please leave them up at least overnight so I can get them printed and saved. Haven't had dinner yet, so I gotta take a break.

Here's V2, top, showing the effects of varying L3. It punches up lower down, tho, like squeezing a water balloon. :banghead:

Lowering R3 progressively to 2.5 Ohms leveled out the notch at 10 kHz, but it's kinda back to just the core filter, looks like, i.e., the parallel notch is, in effect, defeated. Listening to that now. :yes: [Edit: Decidedly "forward."]

Other thing I have to do is measure a bunch of 2435HPL to find a "typical" for this work....

[Zilch]

O.K., here's V1.0 and I'm throwin' down the gauntlet. :p

+/- 2.7144 dB out to 18 kHz @ 1/12 octave smoothing.

Anybody with 2435HPL wants to play along, PT-H1010 waveguide, JBL part 338785-002 is $94.

It's not playing all that bad on compact PT-F1010 part 338786-001, either, $98 each.

Full biased version of the filter with lithium battery power and premium terminals is under $50. :thmbsup:

Note: For those reading just this post, this is a compensation filter for this specific driver/waveguide pair, and is not a crossover network. It must be mated with an active or passive crossover at an appropriate frequency for integration into a system with a compatible low frequency section. These measurements were taken using a JBL M552 24 dB/octave L/R active crossover set to 920 Hz....

[kartsmart]

Will this filter work on the PH-316 horn ? How low would you think the PH-316 would be good for ? Of course that is with the 2435 drivers, I am In the prosess of setting up a PC RTA so I can play along

[Zilch]

Good question.

We studied PH-316 over in Mr. Widget's Horn/Driver Comparison thread. It may make it down to 800 Hz, as I recall, but you can look it up there.

Guido is using that horn with 2435, I believe, and working on modifying the throat for true biradial performance.

I'll try it on this filter and see what happens for you; this IS your thread, after all. ;)

A BIG thumbsup on getting an RTA running.... :thmbsup:

Edit: Certainly listenable, it starts sounding "horny" below 900 Hz, tho. I'd say 800 Hz is the lower limit.

Try increasing L3 to knock down the hump just above 2 kHz a bit, maybe.

I'd try and figure out where the glitch at 10.356 kHz is coming from, too, though I can't say I actually hear it. See PT-F curve in #43, above, where it also appears. It's not this driver, specifically:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147389#post147389

I should look at the influence of driver/throat mounting concentricity.

ReEdit: Had to move the driver an obvious 1/8" off center before the response was altered appreciably. That ain't it....

[Zilch]

Optimized Aperture 2381 horn plays well down in your range of interest (700 - 800 Hz) with 2435HPL, but the compensation from this filter is wrong for it, and you'd have to work that out. There's also directivity index issues in the vertical above 10 kHz to address.

I've struggled with it several times, now, trying to make it happen, without success. It plays well with 2452H-SL using a different filter, but with 2435HPL, it can't be EQ'd with uniform VHF power response in the vertical. I previously found similar in 2332's horizontal, and a different SRX horn, as well.

Not an option for me; I've all but abandoned this combination. It think it's something about the geometry. Three-way, maybe.

[More horns coming in March... ;) ]

[kartsmart]

More horns coming in March... what does this mean ? :blink:

[Zilch]

More horns coming in March... what does this mean ? :blink:I have three more different horn types I've never tried with 2435HPL presently on order with JBL: two consumer horns and one pro waveguide.

They are all scheduled for delivery in March.

After them, I think I'll be done tryin' horns/waveguides here.

[For a while.... :thmbsup: ]

[DJ Vincenzo]

ill post up the 2435s with the am6200/95 wave giude in a week or 2 when my friend brings over siasoft.

[Zilch]

Cool. I have no experience with that filter, and would like to see how it plays with 2435.... :thmbsup:

[DJ Vincenzo]

when u say "filter" do u mean horn or u wanting me to post up the chart run through the factory network card thats in that box designed for the 2431 high...i was just gonna post it up with no eq...just a x-over point.

the horn is really small...like 4 inches deep and 10 inches wide.....very different that the one in the Vertec 4889...i hope i dont do more harm than good by switching these out.....but my Rane 26Z has processing out the ass so we'll see.

[Zilch]

It has a network in it, crossing between the MF and HF at 2.1 kHz, 4th order with two notch filters, a series and a parallel, looks like:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE%20Series/AM6200,95-WH.pdf

That's tailored to the 2431, but may also work reasonably well with 2435, though, as I say, I've never tried that one.

Best would be to compare how it performs with both drivers on that network....

*****

Vertec uses three 2435s on planar waveguides. You're talking different animals here....

[DJ Vincenzo]

Vertec uses three 2435s on planar waveguides. You're talking different animals here....

thats what worries me a bit (when i say worriy i mean will it do more harm than good to switch out them out with the 2431's).....the million$ question is if JBL designed that 2435 JUST for the vertec or maybe they have plans down the road to put it in another enclosure. Maybe if they see enough of us use it otherwise..they will....what i would give to see it in a 2 way mid high box in the SRX-700 series....one like i got but with handles and a bit smaller.:D When i stack my AM6200's on top of my 3 doulble 15's and double 18's...it makes sum people nervous, lol.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i19/justpawn/winter%20heat/DSC04922.jpg

[Thom]

What horns come drilled for this thing? I suppose it's not that big of a deal but I haven't found a 11/2 drilled for it yet. This is probably going to confirm me as a dummy but hey.

[Zilch]

What horns come drilled for this thing?PT Waveguides, 2332, and a forgettable SRX horn. 2352 and 2381 Optimized Aperture horns (one other, too, I think,) have to be drilled. Read up in the Q&D threads:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901

Some Harman Consumer horns, also, limitedly accessible....

[kartsmart]

Anyone with any back round or built the yuichi a290 horn ?
It could work well with the 2435 driver ?
yuichi a290 horn plans.pdf (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=18237&d=1157604424)
I have made a copy of the smith horn 2397s and though it sounded good, but would never would make it as a 2 way system, but I wonder if the larger yuichi could ?

[DJ Vincenzo]

What horns come drilled for this thing? I suppose it's not that big of a deal but I haven't found a 11/2 drilled for it yet. This is probably going to confirm me as a dummy but hey.

the horn in the am6200 fit perfectly...so i imagine all jbl 1.5 exits will work.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/23525354.htm#2352

[johnaec]

the horn in the am6200 fit perfectly...so i imagine all jbl 1.5 exits will work.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/23525354.htm#2352The horns you linked to will NOT work with the 243X series of drivers unless you redrill the mounts. They're designed for the 2447 series of drivers, that while 1.5", they have a completely different mounting bolt pattern.

BTW - I have a pair of JBL PT-H95 horns for sale that will work with the 243X series of drivers. I bought them thinking they'd work with the 2447 drivers, but unlike the bigger horns that can be redrilled for the smaller 243X drivers, these PT horns cannot be easily made to work with the larger 2447 drivers. $75 for the pair of PT-H95's I have, which is less than half retail.

John

[DJ Vincenzo]

well that sucks...i stand corrected.

[Zilch]

well that sucks...i stand corrected.Not a HUGE problem to drill the new holes, actually.

The big 2352 is one horn that works really well with 2435HPL here.... :thmbsup:

[JBL calls it "Medium Format." Right. In a stadium, maybe.... :p ]

[Thom]

Not a HUGE problem to drill the new holes, actually.

The big 2352 is one horn that works really well with 2435HPL here.... :thmbsup:

[JBL calls it "Medium Format." Right. In a stadium, maybe.... :p ]

Not in some horns. In others you end up with blind holes. May still not be insurmountable but when you grabbed the box excitedly and ripped it open--you probably get the idea. I feel a little better now I thought I was the only fool who didnt know enough to order the right horn.

[johnaec]

I feel a little better now I thought I was the only fool who didnt know enough to order the right horn.Hey! I resemble that remark! :o:

John

[Zilch]

I feel a little better now I thought I was the only fool who didnt know enough to order the right horn.A visit to ZilchLab would resolve many of these issues for you.

[Bring your 2435s along for measurement.... :thmbsup: ]

[DJ Vincenzo]

A visit to ZilchLab would resolve many of these issues for you.

[Bring your 2435s along for measurement.... :thmbsup: ]

man would i would give for u to set my proccessor...what progarm do u use?

[Zilch]

...what progarm do u use?CLIO. There's others which may be better suited to your application.

A simple RTA can get you a long way....

[hjames]

A simple RTA can get you a long way..


Hi Zilch! Please define "a simple RTA" (real time analyzer?).
What I'm asking is - what brand and what kind of money does that entail?

[Zilch]

Hi Zilch! Please define "a simple RTA" (real time analyzer?).
What I'm asking is - what brand and what kind of money does that entail?Hi, Heather.

My favorite is the Behringer DEQ2496 UltraCurve Pro, less than $300 at Guitar Center and others. You can bargain to get the dedicated measurement mic and cables thrown in for that. You'll need a mic stand and mini-boom (~$30 more,) too.

I plastered the Q&D threads with pics of its distinctive orange display prior to the forum facilitating my acquisition of CLIO. :p

It's not just an RTA, but a digital EQ, also, a particularly useful feature being its AutoEQ function. You set the response curve you want, push the button, and it EQs accordingly, listening to your system response. You can save up to 64 different EQs to compare.

You can set up your computer to do RTA for about the same $$$ or less, but the Behringer unit is turn-key, plug 'n play.

[Takes a couple of days to appreciate all of its features, tho.... :thmbsup:

[DJ Vincenzo]

i thought everyone used siasoft and the transfer function method.....i thouhgt it was a lot more accurate than a pink noise method.

[Thom]

Hi, Heather.

My favorite is the Behringer DEQ2496, less than $300 at Guitar Center and others. You can bargain to get the dedicated measurement mic and cables thrown in for that. You'll need a mic stand and mini-boom (~$30 more,) too.

I plastered the Q&D threads with pics of its distinctive orange display prior to the forum facilitating my acquisition of CLIO. :p

It's not just an RTA, but a digital EQ, also, a particularly useful feature being its AutoEQ function. You set the response curve you want, push the button, and it EQs accordingly, listening to your system response. You can save up to 64 different EQs to compare.

You can set up your computer to do RTA for about the same $$$ or less, but the Behringer unit is turn-key, plug 'n play.

[Takes a couple of days to appreciate all of its features, tho.... :thmbsup:
Unless I'm special (short bus) you won't necessarily take it home rip open the box and have it mastered by dinner, and if you follow it's direction any pets that may be in the room the first time you turn on the pink noise at the instructed settings will never look at you quite the same again.

[Thom]

Cockatoo bent the bars. Was already my wife's but that sealed it. I believe the settings probably assumed 1w1m 88 or something I had to have that so badly but haven't done much with it. Actually couldn't make it not hum into unbalanced load. Now have crossover with balanced input but haven't gotten back to it. Anyone thinks ferrite is better than alnico should swap out a K145 and an E145 obviously the K145 is superior. If you don't believe it do the exercise a few more times. Eventually you will realize I'm right.

[Zilch]

i thought everyone used siasoft and the transfer function method.....i thouhgt it was a lot more accurate than a pink noise method.CLIO does all that, yes....

[Zilch]

Fully biased filters built as per the schematic and parts list, front:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=146690#post146690

Originals, rear.

Boards are 6" x 5":

[spkrman57]

Great work!

Ron

[Zilch]

Great work!Thanks, Ron.

These came out particularly nice, and sound good, too. :thmbsup:

[matsj]

This is maybe a stupid question, but does these filters have some eq compensation for the horns ? I´m figuring to drive with active xo.

mats

[Zilch]

They ARE the compensation, Mats, for 2435HPL on PT-x1010 waveguides. They must be used with either an active or passive XO. I'm running them on M552 at 1 kHz, presently, and have posted the FR curves.

Here's six different eBay 2435s on PT-H1010 using this filter:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=147389#post147389

I'm trying PT-F1010s with it right now.

Other members are working on similar designs. I'm not done fine tuning these, either, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them as a starting point for anyone wanting to play this driver on these waveguides. The cost is under $100 a pair for parts to build them.

The original (somewhat different) version developed by Greg Timbers is optimized for a particular JBL consumer horn, due here in March:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=143808#post143808

[matsj]

Ok :o: i see. I have both a jbl 553 and a Dbx Dr pa to go with. I will continue too read this thread for more info to my own project.

mats

[Zilch]

Note: My M55x series active crossovers all had the subsonic highpass filter enabled.

May want to check that....

Edit: Oops, it's 15 Hz. Guess I'll turn them back on.... :p

[speakerdave]

This is maybe a stupid question, but does these filters have some eq compensation for the horns ? I´m figuring to drive with active xo.

mats

Whether it is or not, I think the point is that the filter could be used in the cabinet with the drivers to smooth the response and an external active filter of generic nature could be use to achieve the frequency division. If I were doing one of these, I would set them up for biwiring/biamping and use an external active crossover.

David

[matsj]

I will have mine all biamp. I´m not so good in passive filters so i have to ask about it. I got confused when i saw zilch had a m552 too do the hipass.

mats

[Zilch]

I got confused when i saw zilch had a m552 too do the hipass.No problem, Mats.

Compensation has to be provided somewhere, and this seems a far better approach than using external EQ as was earlier recommended. As Dave points out, the actual crossover becomes "generic."

If you look back to when Giskard first posted the filter, it took me a while to get clear on the concept of isolating the compensation, too! :thmbsup:

[matsj]

I wish i was as good as you on filters zilch, but i have a lot to learn.

mats

[Zilch]

I wish i was as good as you on filters zilch, but i have a lot to learn.Hang in, Mats. What I know I learned from these forums. It's all here or referenced here.

[I certainly don't have it "knocked," either, just enough to do stuff with some confidence.... :thmbsup: ]

[DJ Vincenzo]

when setting our eq for the 2435....do u think we should start out with these settings?

http://jblpro.com/vertec1/vertec_manual/VerTec%20Chap%205A.pdf



look how flat they got the response, lol....

http://jblpro.com/pub/tour/VT4889.pdf

:applaud:

[Zilch]

I would not use Vertec EQ on AM6200, no.

Use the AM6200 passive filter, and simply cross to it at the recommended frequency as starting point....

[kartsmart]

I am thinking of giving the yuichi a290 horn a try on the 2435 but the pdf file is not very clear and the vanes mesurements are not there, does someone have complete plans? help would most appreciated:blink:

[yggdrasil]

Are you aware that the Yuichi A290 horn plans are for 2" throat?

[kartsmart]

Are you aware that the Yuichi A290 horn plans are for 2" throat?
__________________
Johnny Haugen Sørgård


Yes I do Johnny,What I plan to do -there is 5 segments in this horn,each segment = 20% of the horn area so I then add one more vane to it . going from a 90 deg horn to 108 deg. or a 6 segment horn, then reducing the height of the horn 20%- 2" to 1.6" Do you think it will work ?

[DJ Vincenzo]

ill post up the 2435s with the am6200/95 wave giude in a week or 2 when my friend brings over siasoft.

http://images22.fotki.com/v519/photos/7/775094/4645766/High-vi.png (http://public.fotki.com/DJVincenzo/zoolu-all-stars-dis/high.html)
Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

the only EQ-ing i did to achieve this was simple.....x-over at 1500 (Linkwitz-Riley 24) and 2 PEQ filters.....

1. BAND filter - 750 htz @ 3.5 db / BW .500 (Q=2.87)
2. HI SHELF filter - 8000 htz @ 8.0 db / BW .325 (Q=4.43)

End result..

http://images14.fotki.com/v362/photos/7/775094/4645766/LowMidHigh-vi.png (http://public.fotki.com/DJVincenzo/zoolu-all-stars-dis/lowmidhigh.html)
Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

http://images21.fotki.com/v515/photos/7/775094/4645766/SubLow-vi.png (http://public.fotki.com/DJVincenzo/zoolu-all-stars-dis/sublow.html)
Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

2 - 2435 hpl's 200 watts each (10.6 ohms)
2 - 2250 h's 500 watts each (8 ohms)
6 - 2226 h's 1250 watts each (6 ohms)
4 - 2268 h's 2400 watts each (4 ohms)

[DJ Vincenzo]

thanks to Lang Holland from Soundscapes for spending 6 hours to tweak my system.....and thanks to that bad arse 2200$ condenser mic he had, lol.

[Zilch]

The white in the first one is the 2435 on the horn without EQ?

And you're not using the AM6200 internal crossover at all?

I'm reposting the images uploaded to this site so they don't ultimately disappear:

[DJ Vincenzo]

And you're not using the AM6200 internal crossover at all?

no...thats set for the 2431...remember i swapped those out for the 2435's.

http://www.jblpro.com/ae/pdf/spec_shts/AM6200_95.pdf

http://images21.fotki.com/v517/photos/7/775094/4645766/414688R105224A-vi.jpg?1172201476





i got the Rane 26z processor....

http://rane.com/dnfullsc.gif

[Zilch]

Well, you've got the subs bumped up pretty good there. :bouncy:

The pro sound guys here'll have to evaluate it, now....

[DJ Vincenzo]

yea..a must for nightclub music (electronica (house, breakbeats) ...NO hip hop....none will EVER be played on my system, lol) but amazingly the highs/mids still were to loud in the club...i had to raise mid bass 15's by about 15 db.

so whatch u think Zilch...should i add 3 more PEQ filters to smooth out peaks at 2000, 3000, and 12000 or will that do more harm than good.

[Jan Daugaard]

HiFi News -- see http://www.hifinews.co.uk -- brings a review of the 1400 Array in the March 2007 issue. The conclusion is reproduced below. The music used to test the loudspeakers was i.a. 'Frank Sinatra live at the Sands' on DVD-A which I have in my discotheque. While musically enjoyable, it leaves much to be desired technically, even by the standard of 1966.
There are 2 frequency response curves, one for each of the loudspeakers in the stereo set-up. The differences amount to more than ±5 dB which must be due to slight differences in the angles between the microphone and the loudspeakers. The dip around 6-8 KHz is a strong argument in favour of not augmenting the 435AL-1 by an UHF driver.

[Woody Banks]

I am thinking of giving the yuichi a290 horn a try on the 2435 but the pdf file is not very clear and the vanes mesurements are not there, does someone have complete plans? help would most appreciated:blink:

Kartsmart

I took on building the A-290S as a winter project with the same goal as you. I used the plans on this site:

http://www.geocities.jp/arai401204/Download_Page/Download.html

I am currently about 95% complete on the first horn and 60% on the second. I have come to the realization that these horns are WAY TOO LARGE. I will finish them, but they will be up for bids fairly soon. I used a type of mahogany I believe is called Cambera. PM me if you would like some photos of the progress.

Regards
Woody

[Woody Banks]

Anyone interested in a pair of LARGE WOODEN HORNS. As I mentioned earlier these are the A-290S designed by Mr. Yuichi. These were not easy to build and have a few cosmetic issues. I would let these go for $400 plus shipping with an additional $100 to LHF. They weigh approximately 38 pounds each.

[spkrman57]

Please let me know. The horns look great.

Are these 1.4" throat or 2" throat? (disregard, jumped the gun too soon in my excitement)

Either would work, just curious.

Regards, Ron

[Woody Banks]

SOLD!

[pos]

Those horns are beautiful, well done!