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Fred Sanford
01-20-2007, 11:10 AM
Piled up a few speakers in the living room last night, got a quick comparison of them (in their current conditions). No measuring equipment at this point, just CD/DVD/ReQuest server and a Yamaha surround receiver. Lots of improvements planned, but if anyone's amused by the pic or interested in quick impressions, here goes:

4333As obviously ruled the roost, frequency range extending audibly past all the other candidates top and bottom. Any time I switched back to these from the others, it's just the hands-down winner. Handled everything well except older recordings- I've been listening to a lot of older music (Django, for example) and these speaker just have no mercy. There are still improvements to make on these, they'll only get better.

Next best (to me) were the L110s- I've used these much, much more than any of the others, but they had come to me with no woofers and had Vifa substitutes installed for years now. Giskard came through with some LE10Hs, and they went into the cabs. Smoother transition from JBL woofer to mid, the Vifas rolled off a bit early to my ears. These just always seem to make me smile, handling just about anything I throw at them accurately (including my own crappy bands). Very low fatigue, adequate bass (these live above my recording console, running full range with a Yamaha P2100 amp and an M&K V3B sub available when desired) and very helpful to me when tracking or mixing.

The L46s surprised me. I expected to hear the tweeters roll off early, but they're not bad. The overall voice of these speakers was really pleasant, sounding best with a sub taking over the low end, of course. Solid and stronger than I expected. They lack the nicely articulated mids of the 3-ways, but it remains to be seen if I'll miss that in a HT application: I have a total of six that are earmarked for a 5.1 setup in the LR. I'll be testing these up against the Canton Karat 20s they'll be replacing, I have a feeling they'll have a little more impact and less sweet highs...we'll see. The ones in this pic/test were from E-Bay, and the woofer surrounds have been replaced. Handled the subtleties of "prettier" music better than...

The L100 Century/4312 bastards...need work. Need something. I played a bunch of different types of music with them, and frowned through most of it. Then, I remembered Ti Dome's posts, and threw some Deep Purple at them. Hmmm. OK, gotcha. Pearl Jam. Yep. STP. Brother Cane. Rainbow. Black Sabbath. Green Day. Foo Fighters, Collective Soul, Dream Theater, Ramones, Urge Overkill, Dinosaur Jr., Replacements, Who, Alice In Chains, Primus...yeah, but these could be better, for sure. L-Pads are scratchy for one, so I don't know if the balances I set actually stay. And, I really don't like the 12" running full range, it's not pretty where it shares with the mid. Any suggestions on first moves here? These are L100 Century cabs & x-overs with 4312 components installed (2213Hs/LE5-12s/LE25-2s). Swerd's xo upgrades seem like an obvious starting point, no? Any point to sourcing the OEM 4312's xo?

Better/bigger pic in the gallery, if anyone cares. I'll be testing with a couple of better amps for the next week or so, and wiring them a bit better for quicker switches between speakers. Niles SVC-4L speaker selector should make that easier & smoother, but it's likely to add its own flavor as well.

I humbly thank all that have contributed to the madness through advice, components or just looney inspiration.

je

Zilch
01-20-2007, 12:56 PM
These are L100 Century cabs & x-overs with 4312 components installed (2213Hs/LE5-12s/LE25-2s). Swerd's xo upgrades seem like an obvious starting point, no? Any point to sourcing the OEM 4312's xo?Same XO, no?

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/4312%20ts.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20ts.pdf

Fred Sanford
01-20-2007, 01:11 PM
Same XO, no?

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/4312%20ts.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20ts.pdf

Not sure what I was picturing in my head, I had downloaded some different sheets when I was considering going with 035Ti before I had the LE25s re-coned...I'll look around & see if I can find the xo I meant.

Thanks,

je

Zilch
01-20-2007, 01:30 PM
Not sure what I was picturing in my head, I had downloaded some different sheets when I was considering going with 035Ti before I had the LE25s re-coned...I'll look around & see if I can find the xo I meant.Well, you made me look, at least.... :p

Fred Sanford
01-20-2007, 04:38 PM
I'll be testing with a couple of better amps for the next week or so, and wiring them a bit better for quicker switches between speakers. Niles SVC-4L speaker selector should make that easier & smoother, but it's likely to add its own flavor as well.


je


Yeah, well, it's flavorful. Stereo image and high frequencies pretty much went bye-bye. I'll take a meter to it (once I unpack one) and see if they common the grounds between L and R channels, contributing to the loss of separation.

I'm assuming the removable phoenix-type input connector
plus the in/out switches
plus the amp selector switches
plus the "protection" switches
plus the autoformers
plus the removable phoenix-type output connector sums up to a whole lot of added resistance. I suppose the meter could tell me that, too. Hmmm, now what box would they be in, and in what closet? :hmm:

Mr. Niles is going back to outdoor speaker selection duty, methinks. Where's that Adcom speaker selector...?

je

Fred Sanford
01-20-2007, 09:25 PM
Better layout of speakers now, new pic in the gallery. Wading through stuff looking for a better speaker switcher, too.

je

Titanium Dome
01-20-2007, 09:37 PM
You need this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PROCO-PRO-CO-RMS-1A-Speaker-Selector-Passive_W0QQitemZ250074774334QQihZ015QQcategoryZ41 475QQcmdZViewItem

I have one of these and the two-source, six speaker Pro Co RMS-2. They'll take virtually any load, switch instantly without a click or pop, and handle gobs of power. Plus, they have extended frequency range.

Fred Sanford
01-21-2007, 05:16 AM
In true Fred Sanford tradition, I was trying to do this with what I had gotten for free and had lying around...but, yeah, that looks like the right piece (for quick switching/comparisons of guitar cabs, too). I've got some ProCo DI boxes that are built like tanks, this box looks good, too.

Cheapie Radio Shack switcher is now sitting in front of the Niles, waiting for its turn...still can't find the Adcom.

Thanks for the info,

je

spkrman57
01-21-2007, 06:02 AM
Thanks for sharing!;)

Ron

hjames
01-21-2007, 10:35 AM
In true Fred Sanford tradition, I was trying to do this with what I had gotten for free and had lying around...but, yeah, that looks like the right piece (for quick switching/comparisons of guitar cabs, too). I've got some ProCo DI boxes that are built like tanks, this box looks good, too.

Cheapie Radio Shack switcher is now sitting in front of the Niles, waiting for its turn...still can't find the Adcom.

Thanks for the info,

je
Looks like a good day to stay in and work on your sound!
Snow is coming down now with a second wave coming this evening ...

Fred Sanford
01-21-2007, 11:34 AM
Looks like a good day to stay in and work on your sound!
Snow is coming down now with a second wave coming this evening ...

And, I slipped in that damn snow while unloading my trailer, and wrenched my back. Hope I can stand up straight and lift speakers before the end of the week, or else my wife moves here while there's 8 big JBLs in the Living Room...oh well. For now, I sit and try to relax. Not much here to eat, but there's beer, wine and tequila...hmmm, tortilla chips...salsa...margarita mix...I got a regular fiesta brewin' right here. I'm good.

Tomorrow's supposed to be ~46 degrees, I'm hoping that things thaw so I can go and buy some food now that the van's unpacked. I'd have to get REALLY hungry before I'd try to take the 6,000 + lb. 2WD van down the 340' sloped gravel driveway in the snow.

je

Titanium Dome
01-21-2007, 11:51 AM
In true Fred Sanford tradition, I was trying to do this with what I had gotten for free and had lying around...but, yeah, that looks like the right piece (for quick switching/comparisons of guitar cabs, too). I've got some ProCo DI boxes that are built like tanks, this box looks good, too.

Cheapie Radio Shack switcher is now sitting in front of the Niles, waiting for its turn...still can't find the Adcom.

Thanks for the info,

je

I've got one of those li'l Radio Shack boxes. Haven't seen it in five years. I wonder where it is?

Sorry to hear about your back. That sucks, but your Fiesta will put you in a better frame of mind and body.

JBLRaiser
01-21-2007, 01:17 PM
You need this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PROCO-PRO-CO-RMS-1A-Speaker-Selector-Passive_W0QQitemZ250074774334QQihZ015QQcategoryZ41 475QQcmdZViewItem

I have one of these and the two-source, six speaker Pro Co RMS-2. They'll take virtually any load, switch instantly without a click or pop, and handle gobs of power. Plus, they have extended frequency range.

http://www.prodistroaudio.com/images/24hrs.gif:rotfl:

BMWCCA
01-21-2007, 01:45 PM
And, I slipped in that damn snow while unloading my trailer, and wrenched my back. Hope I can stand up straight and lift speakers before the end of the week, or else my wife moves here while there's 8 big JBLs in the Living Room...oh well. If you need help, just let me know. I'm about 45-minutes from you best I can tell, and once the kids are off to school I'm fairly available on Monday-Thursday. Flying to TX on Friday though. My back is experiencing a good period as we speak. :applaud:

soundboy
01-21-2007, 03:56 PM
Thanks for the pic and the post:applaud: Do you really think that at medium levels, the 4333 is more articulate, smoother/realistic than the L110's? hmmmm, must have bad level pots, or they need to be on some stands....or your 4333's just sound better! Louder, for sure. Thanks again for the fun post.

Fred Sanford
01-21-2007, 04:46 PM
I've got one of those li'l Radio Shack boxes. Haven't seen it in five years. I wonder where it is?

Sorry to hear about your back. That sucks, but your Fiesta will put you in a better frame of mind and body.

Didn't do the full-blown Fiesta as described, if I'm not standing straight up by tomorrow I will, though. I settled for a Saranac Ale and pretzels while my Lipton Pasta Meal was microwaving...sad substitute, I know. I'd better be mobile by Friday, I have 4 all-access passes to the Chili Peppers show in Charlottesville and I'm gonna use them. It's a new theater, they'll have wheelchair ramps, right?

I generally keep stuff like the Radio Shack switcher around until I see someone else with a need, and then give them away. Many (if not most) of the orphans that follow me home go to one charity or another...Christmas time I gave a mixer to a community theater, a projector to an independant filmmaker, speakers to a disabled friend, that kind of thing. So, the stuff that's one level above "chuck it" rotates until it finds a loving home.

je, Hunchback on the Hill

Fred Sanford
01-21-2007, 04:53 PM
If you need help, just let me know. I'm about 45-minutes from you best I can tell, and once the kids are off to school I'm fairly available on Monday-Thursday. Flying to TX on Friday though. My back is experiencing a good period as we speak. :applaud:

That's a very generous offer, but really only if it would amuse you to see/hear the speakers as they're set up now. You could hear 'em and then carry them down stairs, big fun! Just the littler ones, the 4333As are staying put. I've prepped my wife that they all might be sitting in the LR when she gets down here, she seemed fine with that. I'd love to get together and BS about AV, VA and MCs, so hit me with an e-mail if you're actually interested.

Thanks,

je

Fred Sanford
01-21-2007, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the pic and the post:applaud: Do you really think that at medium levels, the 4333 is more articulate, smoother/realistic than the L110's? hmmmm, must have bad level pots, or they need to be on some stands....or your 4333's just sound better! Louder, for sure. Thanks again for the fun post.

I'll agree that the L110s are quite picky about placement, I've always loved them (even with the incorrect woofers) when used as near-fields over my desk, and some of the positions I've arranged them in with this really lame A/B/C/D thing I've got going they've sounded pretty plain at best, boxy and dull at worst. I'm not faulting the speakers for that whatsoever, as I mentioned they're the only ones in this lineup I have any real hours on, and I really like and trust them.

I can't honestly say, especially with the multiple variables I've got going currently, that I'd state that the "4333 is more articulate, smoother/realistic than the L110s". How about, the 4333s are more pleasing, exciting and impressive in the current configuration than the L110s? I'd still choose the L110s for the playback & tracking monitors, for my uses anyway. I feel they're pretty truthful without being microscopically revealing (I'd never want to listen to myself play), and really non-fatiguing. They also develop nicely at a far closer range than the 4333s do, that's to be expected. All of these need to be tested in their final locations and adjusted accordingly, I think they'll all be happy here.

By the way, I did a quick comparison of the Cantons to the L46s and my initial guess was correct- JBL= impact & body, Canton= clarity and silky (hyped?) highs. Also, the Cantons are 4 ohms.

Of course, the other obvious variable in this is that I'm still "on the road to appreciating mid-fi", right?

je, Semper Mid-Fi!