new horn loaded system

[Mike C]

Merry xmas guys, here is a pic of my new horn loaded system. JBL and Altec components

Drivers; Altec 288- g-16 x2
JBL 2220 - H x 2
JBL 2241- G x 2
JBL E - 145- H x 4

[neriks]

Wow ... Very impressive! :)

[Mike C]

Hi Neriks, I'm pretty happy with the whole thing. It is butt ugly though the dynamics of this system need to be heard to appreciate. It has taken some tuning and still needs some, I'm going to buy some new amps in the newyear so I think that will tidy the whole thing up. The altec Mantarays blew me away, the projection and accuracy over all the other horns I,ve used is amazing. The system stands over 2mtrs high, and my 10 yo daughter can stand inside the sub horns ( they are huge ). I don't think the E- 145's are the best choice for the sub horns, but they are easy to change and I'm open for sugestions for suitable replacments. We put an spl meter on them the other day and at 6 mtrs we saw peaks of over 115 db. The total amplifer power for the system is 800 watts rms per channel.
Mike......

[boputnam]

Wow, Mike!!

That is monster! I don't think I' be allowed it in my family room...

The E145 is better for a bass speaker, and in that was used in PA applications (high SPL), but I agree may not be the best for subs. I guess you want to stay with something 15-inch? I'm thinking 2234's or 2235's...

[speakerdave]

Hey, Mike C! Looks absolutely rebellious!

What are the crossover points? I'm wondering if you really need a sub-bass. It would take a lot of 2235's and amps to power them to keep up with a pair of 2241's. I'm guessing your crossover to the 288's is about 500 Hz. What about eliminating the lowest crossover point and increasing the number of 2241's or adding a pair of 2242's in parallel with them?

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Thanks for posting this bro, my wife now appreciates the HR-1's a little more!

Have a good Xmas

Ken

[Mike C]

Hi guys, the secret is no wife factor, I'm very lucky. I had the double fifteen folded horns as the LF, and the 2241's as the subs when we first hooked it all up. The fact is I cant change it back until I can get some more mates to come around and help me, the weight of these things is rediculous ( they all think I'm sick ).
Ok this is how everything is hooked up,

The 288 - G / Mantaray deal is passively crossed into the single 2220H loaded 15" folded horns, for this task I have two crossovers that I can swap between. Alec N-501-8a ( 500 hz ) or my favourite at the moment the JBL 3120a ( 1200 hz ). I like the 1200 hz crossover point when playing hard rock music as the mid bass slam is to die for...... trust me.

The mid / top drivers are then crossed at 200 hz into the single 2241g's, this is done using a Behringer electronic crossover ( model CX - 2310 ) I use the sub ouput of the CX-2310 crossed at 80 hz to drive the two double 15" horns in the middle. Those horns loaded must weigh at least 150 kg each, they are built like tanks!!.

I must say when I first hooked up this "Titan" system it sounded awful, the crossover points and phasing not to mension been careful with the impedence of all the drivers ( my amps are wimps )and I was short on leads to use my RTA ( Santa has now fixed that ) but it has been worth the whole effort.

As you all can see its all very ugly, so over the break I'm going to start refinishing the whole system and make grills for all the bins. Some of the bins have a bit of history as well, the single 15 and 18 horns came out of a very famous venue in these parts called the Bombay Rock as part of the house system. I'm told many of Australias hottest bands have played using these bins through the 70's and up until the closure of the venue in the late eighties. Well I guess I have some playing to do over the break, and tommorow I'm off to look at some amps a local sound guy has for sale. The amps he has are all Perreaux and he has offered to lend me what ever I need to get the power I need to drive this system to its potential, in doing so I can then get the amps I need knowing they all work. The guy is up grading to lighter amps as the Perreaux units as some of you would know are very heavy, I'm not sure I would like to lug some of them around to different gigs.
Anyway thanks for your interest in my system guys and I would love any advice to help me get the most out of this beast.
Have a safe break and I wish you all and your families a great xmas and a well earned rest.
Mike.......

[Mike C]

Glad I could help Ken!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike.

[Ski]

Wow, that looks great to me.

[Oldmics]

Hi Mike,I want to comment on the choice of drivers (2241)that you are using in those folded horn cabinets as subs.Being an old pro sound guy ,I know those cabinets well.
Those cabinets were originally designed to utilise a K141 speaker.I have the plans next to me and they are listed as "W" Horn for K151 18" Driver.The K151 speaker is a short XMAX driver.The 2241 speakers that you are using are longer XMAX drivers.What this means is that there is a potental to slam the cone into the baffle board that the speaker mounts to.This could cause total destruction of the cone assembly.
This would happen when the speaker is really cranked up.The trick is to get enough clearence to get the cone away from the baffle board when the cone is at full XMAX.Sometimes a gasket between the speaker and the baffle board will do the trick.It is a thin,air tight fit gasket that would have to be fabricated .This is a tough chore due to the thin mounting frame on the 2241 and trying to keep the moving surround away from the fabricated spacer assembly.You might want to take a look see at the drivers and see if the surrounds are chaffed where it has impacted the baffle board.
I just do not want to see any damange to anybodys sound system.
Hope this info helps,Best regards,Oldmics

[Mike C]

Hi oldmics, you are dead right. I had that problem with the 2241's when I first purchased those bins, we cut out some 3 ply birch rings to put between the drivers and the mounting baffle. I did the same to the single 15" horns as when I got them they had e-140's in them with the same problem. Both work well now and no audible thuds. Thanks.
Mike.....

[speakerdave]

Originally posted by Mike C
they all think I'm sick


Well, Mike, we all get a little of that. It's just a question of whether there is some socially redeeming value in our particular form of it. You are an educator. Most people have never heard good sound reproduction.

I still have some questions about your setup. How different are the respective cutoff frequencies of the W bins and those double scoop bins?

Thanks,

David

[Mike C]

Hi Dave, the "W" bins as they are connected now - LF I am led to believe go down to 40 hz and fall quite quickly beyond that. The Behringer crossover has a 25 hz high pass button which I have switched in, so I'm guessing they very quickly fall at around 30 hz. The double folded horns ( the subs ) I'm gussing would be flat to around 35 hz I don't have any info on them either. I don't have any high pass devices on the subs, that is unless they are affected by the high pass switching on the Behringer crossover . I'm going to look at some amps today and at the same time I'll see if the guy has a three way crossover which will give me some more control over the bins.
I was thinking getting a crossover that has varible 180 degree phasing control too as I'm sure there are issuses there as well.
This morning I'm going to hook up my RTA and just see where its all at . Sorry I probably haven't answered your questions very well, but these are the areas I need to learn more about and play with. One thing is forsure, the bottom end needs to be tightened up a whole heap and I'm guessing its because my wimpy amps don't have enough control over the large drivers.
Mike.........

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Mike,

That's a swell system and you sound very happy with it.

I'll bet the dynamic are something else!!

Regards your amps, what are you using at the moment?

I see you refer to the legacy of the Bins, well I have a Phase Linear 700 Series 2 that kicked arse for the likes of LRB from Jands that would be the Bees Knee's for you.

I've previously seen the 700 drive the 2226 to the limits of linearity without damage, but you sure would need those ply rings for serious levels.

Ian

[Mike C]

Hi Ian I did miss out on a rack full of those 700-b's a while back, I didn't get to look at the Perreaux's today ( xmas spirit got to me ) how ever this morning I added a pair of 2404's to the system. What a difference, the highs are fantastic. I crossed them using a filter out of a pair of cabarets i had kicking around. Heres a pic with my ugly mug in it. (guess what Santa got me )
Mike.
P.S I rotated the mid bass horns for wider dispersion, made a big deferance. The sound seems to fill the room more.

[Mike C]

Hi again guys, I'm just blown away by this new system. After adding the 2404's I can't believe the transition they made. The sound is just everywhere in the room, with the lights out it sounds like I'm at the concert listening to the group I'm listenig to. Ian and Phil ( from oz ) would be familiar with Coldchisel's East album, I am just speechless!!! this system would put a horn on a Jelly fish!!!!!!!.
Mike..

[Ian Mackenzie]

Mike,

I believe the phrase you are looking for is large. .

Those 2404 must be somthin else hey.

l think you are making our friends across the Pacific jealous and trust Ken not to be outdone, will be out looking for Clair Bros S4 cabinets at sunrise.

Suggest you buy a sound level meter for either Tandy or Jaycar.

My standard test track is Jimi Hendricks Fire and Can't Find My Way Home...

The latter being very apt last night after a session at the Espy Hotel with Phil Para (renown Hendricks player with snippets from Santana ). We had about 300 in the Lounge bar with 8 deep on the bar.

I find this stuff very challenging even for the most elaborate systems, nothin beats sheer power does it!!

Happy amp hunting.... the Mackies are also very good.

Ian







Enjoy

Ian:rockon1: :cheers: :band: :dancin: :wtf:

[mikebake]

Hime Mike C; glad to see you got the midbass bins oriented correctly; I see you have realized that they were not right as shown in the first photo.
I have a Behringer CX3400, which is better for a rig like yours, but I suggest, besides some amps, that you might want to invest next in a Behringer crossover that has just been out a short while, the DCX2496, which can accomplish all kinds of beneficial things for your rig, like all kinds of crossover slopes and types, adjustable delays, etc.
See the link. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031227172428024210159177901988/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/182479/

have fun!

Mike B

[Mike C]

Hi Mikebake glad you noticed, I had the mid bass horns on their side as the Mantarays looked better on them. It all looks ugly anyway so I guess correct is better and the sound is definatley better. I did consider the new managment system from Behringer, I was hoping I could pick up a s/h omni-drive or similar.
Thanks for your input. I have own many different JBL and EV monitors over the years, and my favorite till now was the 4350's I had. They just don't come near the dynamics of these things, they may have been a little cleaner and detailed but no where near the slam of this ugly beast. I can't wait to get some clean amps and a management system with some control to see what these things are capable of.
Mike.......

[JonFairhurst]

Mike,

That's an excellent bathroom system you have there. Will you be doing anything larger for the bedroom, kitchen and living room? :)

But seriously, it's summer in Oz right now. You might consider hosting a block party. Get those babies outside and hear 'em sizzle. If they sound good indoors, they should be amazing with room to breathe.

Just make sure to get them back inside before the last person passes out. ;)

[angel mercado]

hey mike can you put a side view pic on the mantarays to see how you put them on i got a pair of them for my a-7 and i would like help on mounting these please

[Mike C]

Hi Angel, I will do that today for you. I don't have the system together this week but all still sitting there, I'll have my lovely assisant Mary ( GF ) hold the tape to it all so you can see the actual measurements.

[angel mercado]

gracias amigo hey another question do you think i can put those on some a-7 cabinets and what tweeter from altec might fit that horn or what do you recommend

[Mike C]

Hi Angel, sorry for the delay, my camera was acting up. Here is a couple of pics for you. As for a tweeter I'm not sure you will need one.

[Mike C]

closer veiw of tape

[angel mercado]

thank you mike

[curtis100691]

hi m8 i was wondering wether you cud send me sum plans for a rear loaded horn of any kind. i c ur irig and i must say im inpressed which is y i have asked for plans. its my first time build so nothing to big, if youve got anything.
regards curtis

[Hoerninger]

http://www.speaker-online.de/bauen/naumann/

http://www.speaker-online.de/bauen/naumann/phh1.gif
___________
Peter

[cooky1257]

hi m8 i was wondering wether you cud send me sum plans for a rear loaded horn of any kind. i c ur irig and i must say im inpressed which is y i have asked for plans. its my first time build so nothing to big, if youve got anything.
regards curtis

Hey Curtis,
As you are no doubt aware there are contributors from all over the world here.
Our UK biased 'text messagease' might not be the most effective means of communication:)
http://www.speakerplans.com/ may be of some use to you.
cheers
Frank

[Ibex2912]

Merry xmas guys, here is a pic of my new horn loaded system. JBL and Altec components

Drivers; Altec 288- g-16 x2
JBL 2220 - H x 2
JBL 2241- G x 2
JBL E - 145- H x 4

Mike, what bass cabs are those in the middle? Martin Audio S2?

[Lee in Montreal]

Mike, what bass cabs are those in the middle? Martin Audio S2?

Look indeed very much like Martin S2

http://hornplans.free.fr/martin_s2.html

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