PDA

View Full Version : 4343 crossover modifications



Pages : [1] 2 3

jeph
12-22-2003, 08:02 AM
Hi,

I am using a pair of JBL 4343's. Recently I have replaced some of the caps in crossover used for the 2420 driver and the 2405 slot tweeter with Jensen oil in paper caps. The results were very encouraging, and now I would like to make further improvements.

In the crossover there is a 52 uF capacitor that the entire signal for the MF, HF and UHF drivers apparently has to pass. Is there any way of getting rid of this capacitor or any other ways of simplifying/improving this crossover?

I can't biamp, and I am not quite ready for a 1st order filter like the one made by 4343mod (At least not without having seen some measurements).

I am not an expert in crossovers and any help will be greatly appreciated.

Crossover schematic (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3143%20Network.pdf) :)

GordonW
12-22-2003, 09:35 AM
Well, I'd be inclined to make up a "composite" from film caps, to achieve this value.

A good starter point, would be the 40uf 250V Dayton metallized poly from Parts Express, part# 027-442. Parallel that with the 10uf GE Series 41L 600V poly cap from Madisound (part# GE1041L600), and the 2 uf GE Series 42L 850V poly cap, also from Madisound (part# GE242L850). Personally, this is optional... but I would also aquire a small value (like .016uf) high-voltage polystyrene capacitor, from somewhere like Digikey or wherever, to parallel with this "composite".

This will give you 52uf, but in a way that minimizes the "artifacts" of having a big cap in the circuit. As you go smaller values in the composite, you go to higher-and-higher grade caps, which improves transient leading edge (ie, very high frequency signal) accuracy, and minimizes inadvertant energy storage issues (ie, smearing).

The good thing about this, is that all these caps are not more than a few bucks each. For less than $30, you could order the whole bunch, which means that if you hated it, you'd not be out of a significant amount of $$. I'd really doubt you'd hate it, given how neutral I've found these sorts of combinations to be, IIRW.

Now, another alternative would be, instead of the GE polys, just use the Dayton poly as the "core", and use some of your oil-filled caps as the "booster" caps to achieve the final value. Or maybe even this- the Dayton 40uf, the GE 10uf, a 2uf oil-filled, and the polystyrene... or whatever other combinations of values to achieve 52uf, using whatever oil-filled cap valuse you have on hand. That'd probably be the "best of all worlds"...

Of course, you could do this with more exotic caps like Hovlands and the like, but IMHO, the cap combo I specified above, will be a LOT better than stock, and going from this to exotic caps will be a very MINOR change, if anything perceptable at all in most cases, from the Dayton/GE/polystyrene combo. It's a matter of hitting the balance of expense vs. performance, and also staying with "stable" stuff that doesn't purposefully do 'tweaky" things to the sound balance, like some extremely high-end stuff tends to do sometimes...

Regards,
Gordon.

4313B
12-22-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by jeph
In the crossover there is a 52 uF capacitor that the entire signal for the MF, HF and UHF drivers apparently has to pass. Is there any way of getting rid of this capacitor or any other ways of simplifying/improving this crossover?The 52 uF capacitor needs to stay. Temporarily move the white lead going to the #11 lug on the bi-amp switch to the #10 lug on the bi-amp switch. The input of the 52 uF capacitor goes to the #10 lug. Listen to the system and post your impression here.



Always double check your connections when modifying circuits. You don't want to accidentally blow up drivers or amplifiers.

4313B
12-22-2003, 12:19 PM
Better yet, do what Gordon stated and be done with it :yes:

That will save me the time and trouble of stepping you through the whole process of taking the HF and UHF out from behind the 52 uF capacitor and then re-adjusting the whole filter :)

Tom Loizeaux
12-27-2003, 10:06 PM
I would be so easy to bi-amp your 4343s. A second amp, an active crossover and another pair of cables and the flick of a switch, and you've gotten those big, mushy caps out of the signal path, cleaned up all of your drivers and increased headroom!
I think once you've tried it - you won't go back.

Tom

jeph
01-10-2004, 01:03 PM
Unfortunately I can't bi-amp. I am using a homemade tube amplifier that I am really pleased with. I guess I will start out by trying Gordon’s suggestion.

Thanks for your help.
:)

Earl K
01-10-2004, 03:44 PM
Hi Jeph

I too recommend that you do something as Gordon advised, in making up a combination cap from multiples, to arrive at the 52uf value.

If you are in for some additional experimentation at modest expense, try contacting the eBay seller of 100uf (for $10.00) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2582607992) . Ask him to cross-reference what he has available to the pdf catalog numbers that I've uploaded for you. He may have something in the 40uf range for you. These ("Commonwealth Sprague" MPP in oil) caps are either "identical to" or very similar to some Mallory 370VAC motor-run types that I bought last fall. They are a Metallized Polypropylene "swimming" in oil. My Mallorys' have a very deep and generous lower mid to midrange quality. They also slightly suppress (or compress) transients from the "upper presence" area. One can "restore" these upper areas by adding ( Cascading, ByPassing, Combining, Grafting onto ) other "dry" MPP cap-types. Depending on the ratios chosen you can make some very musical combinations as per Gordons suggestions.

Here is an eBay seller that I have bought from. His handle is "LiteKeys" (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=litekeys&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25) . I purchased his CDET ( Cornell-Dublier ) "Film & Foil Bypass Caps". These are old-style, & "huge" for their capacitance, Mylar Film & Foil type. Though they don't have as low a noise floor as "Film & Foil" Polypropylene, they do have a deeper soundstage than most other modestly priced, small, tight, MPP "Metallized-Polypropylenes" types ( especially Solen ) . They are really,a cheap bit of education.

Just a thought .

regards <. Earl K

B&KMan
04-14-2005, 09:36 PM
Hi,

I am using a pair of JBL 4343's. Recently I have replaced some of the caps in crossover used for the 2420 driver and the 2405 slot tweeter with Jensen oil in paper caps. The results were very encouraging, and now I would like to make further improvements.

In the crossover there is a 52 uF capacitor that the entire signal for the MF, HF and UHF drivers apparently has to pass. Is there any way of getting rid of this capacitor or any other ways of simplifying/improving this crossover?

I can't biamp, and I am not quite ready for a 1st order filter like the one made by 4343mod (At least not without having seen some measurements).

I am not an expert in crossovers and any help will be greatly appreciated.

Crossover schematic (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3143%20Network.pdf) :)


Hello jeph,

I'm run a new project = rebuilt my 4343 internal crossover...

So any hint tips or schematic modification or correction of the original PDF schematic Have strongly appreciate...

What your final selection of caps, inductor, etc. ???
:)

thanks for all

Jean.

jeph
04-15-2005, 01:23 AM
I have been working on the crossover for quite some time.



Originally I replaced most of the caps in the crossover used on the HF and UHF drivers with vintage Jensen paper in oil caps (1 uF, 1.5 uF, 1.5 uF and 4 uF). The improvement was big - the highs became a lot cleaner, more listenable and natural sounding.



Afterwards and replaced the original cabling in the cabinet with Belden cat5 and removed the switching system that allowed switching between the internal and an external crossover. This switching system uses quite few feet of cable inside the loudspeaker cabinet and must be bad for the sound quality. While doing this I replaced some of the inductors with Jensen copper foil air core inductors (0.16 mH and 0.25 mH) and most of the resistors with paralleled 2W Riken Ohm carbon resistors. (I can do this because my amplifier is low powered).



This is all I have done so far. I might replace the rest of the capacitors and inductors in the near future and the L-pads will definitely have to go. So far the improvements have been worth the effort. The biggest improvement has been the replacement of the nasty yellow caps in the stock crossover. These caps are easy to replace and it makes a very big improvement in sound quality - start with those.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

jeph
04-15-2005, 02:07 AM
I have never gotten around doing anything about the 52 uF capacitor originally discussed in this thread. I have found a couple of possible replacements, but I am no longer so sure that the original 52 uF cap used is all that bad, although it annoys me that so much of the signal has to pass it. In my version of the crossover the 52 uF cap is bypassed by a 4 uF cap, and this cap I replaced with a Jensen Paper in Oil capacitor (Old paper in oil type in metal can).



I chose to use the Jensen Paper in Oil caps in metal cans because I know these well, and I really like the sound. I have never tried Hovlands in my crossover so I can’t comment on those.



I chose to use Riken resistors in my crossover because I find they sound very nice in most applications. I also like the sound of Allen Bradley Carbon comp, but they are getting harder to find in 2W versions, and the values tend to drift a lot over time. Some people doesn’t like the sound of carbon comp resistors, but I find them more natural sounding than any other type I have tried.



So far I haven’t made any changes to the crossover circuit, although I would still like to simplify it a little.



I would very much like to know more about the results of your experiments, so please keep us posted.

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 06:33 AM
[color=black]

The biggest improvement has been the replacement of the nasty yellow caps in the stock crossover. These caps are easy to replace and it makes a very big improvement in sound quality - start with those.




THANKS VERY WELL FOR CUE...

I just finish last night to keep mesurement of response of electrical crossover with all driver connected... REaly bad result

for the small yellow cap look this picture and in according of this I know where my sound is go out !!! :o:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 06:52 AM
I would very much like to know more about the results of your experiments, so please keep us posted. [/color]

No problem Jeph

I run a part of nigh to keep mesure of crossover and I posted in other tread but no problem to put there.

response electrical on 2131
Look the drift on low frequency and the double slope check carefully the ladder Y in DB for good interpretation.

the more white section is the frecquency range determination by cross over performance 35-310 Hz. No doubt the respons acoustical in far field of the driver expose peak response at the same place and drop response ... So it is realy difficult to set the Lpad of the 2121 because the end of response is too down...

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 07:10 AM
[color=black]

I chose to use Riken resistors in my crossover because I find they sound very nice in most applications. I also like the sound of Allen Bradley Carbon comp, but they are getting harder to find in 2W versions, and the values tend to drift a lot over time. Some people doesn’t like the sound of carbon comp resistors, but I find them more natural sounding than any other type I have tried.


well probably this component is more time burn-in and sound hash before...

I'M little surprise of this selection because I'm understand the nature of resistance is resistance wiring and if you change for other your have more intrusive circuit... This is a carbon wiring resististance ??? Pict ???

what other type you have tested...

thanks

Jean

here other pict of insane set-up inside of cross over look the coil is choke concept and to close you other coil : this is interference is put 30% distorsion

:biting:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 07:15 AM
I would very much like to know more about the results of your experiments, so please keep us posted. [/color]

I Dont know if the curve response is normal but it appear little weird

look other curve of 2121A original with original cone kit...

Each big horizontal line is 10 DB value so the fluctuation is big...

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 07:23 AM
the twilight zone continue...

look the response of the 2420A ...

Is never cut and go into the range of the 2405!!! check the value of Y axis for more comprehension. I dont know is normal but it is weird .... No :blink:

Earl K
04-15-2005, 07:27 AM
Hi There (again) ,

- Back to this 52uf cap question. ( After a couple of years ) :p

- Here's a link to a place that consistently sells these MPP caps in oil ( that I previously mentioned above ). Click Here !!! (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZmachine ry13)

- I'd recommend buying the listed 40 uf /370 volt , Sprague Motor-Run for use a base cap . At less than $5.00 a piece ( before taxes or shipping ) it's really hard to go wrong in buying a couple ( to at least play about with ) .

- I'd then follow Gordons' advice from above but implementing a hybrid version of it. That means I would add a 10uf Dayton MPP ( dry film ) on top of the 40 uf motor run and then another higher quality 2 uf Film & Foil Polypropylene sort ontop of this mix to make up the desired 52 uf value. So far IME, the smoothness of Polystyrenes bypass caps are somewhat "lost" in coned speakers of that size ( 10" ) so I would use the .01 uf Audio Thetas from RelCap / these have quite a following at this forum ( though I haven't yet tried them ).

- Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


- To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE ! (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555)

:cheers:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 07:38 AM
Hi There (again) ,

- Back to this 52uf cap question. ( After a couple of years ) :p

- Here's a link to a place that consistently sells these MPP caps in oil ( that I previously mentioned above ). Click Here !!! (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ50QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsassZmachine ry13)

- I'd recommend buying the listed 40 uf /370 volt , Sprague Motor-Run for use a base cap . At less than $5.00 a piece ( before taxes or shipping ) it's really hard to go wrong in buying a couple ( to at least play about with ) .

- I'd then follow Gordons' advice from above but implementing a hybrid version of it. That means I would add a 10uf Dayton MPP ( dry film ) on top of the 40 uf motor run and then another higher quality 2 uf Film & Foil Polypropylene sort ontop of this mix to make up the desired 52 uf value. So far IME, the smoothness of Polystyrenes bypass caps are somewhat "lost" in coned speakers of that size ( 10" ) so I would use the .01 uf Audio Thetas from RelCap / these have quite a following at this forum ( though I haven't yet tried them ).

- Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


- To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE ! (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555)

:cheers:



thanks very much !!! for all precise informations. :)

I suppose it is possible to mesure the result of circuit of the special blend receipt...

I go in JENSEN site www and the white paper of capacitor is very interesting and go in according information of forum but never found guy is tal a quad capacitor why ??? I appear with a excellent capacitor where the integration of the blend selection in one capacitor ??? I'm a bad comprehension ???

http://www.jensencapacitors.com/audio/white-papers/4pole.html



:blink:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 08:07 AM
Hi There (again) ,

- Another "wrinkle" to this would be to DC bias ( Charge Couple ™ ) just that additional 12uf of capacitance (that sits on the 40 uf oiler ). I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased ) . It's difficult to impossible to make out a difference between these two approaches. If DC biasing the 12 uf , I would first try 2 , 24 uf Solen paralled across the 40 uf oiler . IMO, Solens' are cheap enough to buy as an initial investment in the search for the perfect mix of caps. I've found that the Solens' will "mix" quite nicely with a wet MPP cap type when the Solens are DC biased. ( MPP = Metallized Polypropylene ) ( wet = oil immersion )


- To learn some more about DC biasing ( and Bypassing ) CLICK HERE ! (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555)

:cheers:

THANKS !! and very interesting...

Well If I understand correct, the DC biais is same performance of blend of Capacitor approach or is better ???

:)

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 08:10 AM
I'm doing this right now in my horn circuit. The DC biasing works very well on the dry films and somewhat less so on the "wet" films . ( I presently run one horn circuit completely biased with the other having just the dry film biased )



Do you have a schematic of your circuit for exemple and more comprehension ???

Thanks for all

Jean.

Earl K
04-15-2005, 08:14 AM
Jean,


I suppose it is possible to measure the result of a circuit of the special blend receipt ( recipe )...

- From my perspective ( & specifically with capacitors ) ,,, the only worthwhile measurement is what your ears will tell you . The rest is largely bunk and/or marketing jargon wrapped up in some quasi scientific techno babble.

- Regarding your observations about the "electrical" response shapes from the testing of your 3143 network : any electrical response study only tells a partial story / you'll now need to look at the "net" acoustical responses obtained by the actual drivers with those filters attached.
- Everything you've posted above is really quite interesting ( especially the 2420 circuit ) / but taken alone, those electrical responses don't conclude much of anything .
- an "in room" RTA for each of the 4 sections would be a good next step .

:cheers:

Earl K
04-15-2005, 08:22 AM
Well If I understand correct, the DC biais is same performance of blend of Capacitor approach or is better ???

- No, blending caps is a completely different craft
from
DC biasing caps .

- The expected results aren't related to each other .


Do you have a schematic of your circuit for exemple and more comprehension ???

- I'll draw up some schematics within a day or two . I'll post them this weekend.

- I'll need to create 3 schematics to cover the different points that I have talked about .



:)

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 08:56 AM
thanks very much

:bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

(and sorry for my poor english: I'M french it is tuff to write in other language )

;)


and Of course the final result is acoustical result is criterion of the happy musical feeling but in general if the mesure is not corrolar the result is rarely good.

In philosophy, this expression is: science is minimal obligations conditions but not sufficient conditions. :)

4313B
04-15-2005, 09:10 AM
I'M french it is tuff to write in other languageNOT A PROBLEM! Post in French and my wife will read it to me... ;)

SO HOT! :rotfl:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 09:11 AM
- No, blending caps is a completely different craft
from
DC biasing caps .

- The expected results aren't related to each other .

:)

Well, at your taste what is the best ??? :hmm:



------------------------------
Is exist only one verity :blink: but is leave out :o: :blah:
------------------------------

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 09:18 AM
NOT A PROBLEM! Post in French and my wife will read it to me... ;)

SO HOT! :rotfl:


EH bien vous m'en voyiez ravie...

Et comme vous êtes en airs de taquinez le poisson j'aurais bien une petite mais gentille revange en vous félicitant pour la réalisation exemplaire que vous avez produit pour monsieur Widget. J'ai rencontrer un type cette semaine pour me construire mes flitres passif mais le type n'était définitivement pas à la hauteur. Pour un oeil avertie, le positionnement de vos bobine, les pièces etc, exprime une réelle maitrise. Et j'espère pour vous que vous avez bien un merveilleuse épouse qui peux traduire ces compliments auxquels cas ils tomberont dans les yeux d'un autre...

:D

Jean

4313B
04-15-2005, 09:21 AM
Upgrade.

I'll be blunt as usual - the 4343 network is probably best left in a museum. Upgrade to a 4344 system.

G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network is so much better.

JBL used G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network in the 4344.

Robh3606? Ian? jarrods? Care to comment? You guys built the 3145 right?

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 09:32 AM
Upgrade.

I'll be blunt as usual - the 4343 network is probably best left in a museum. Upgrade to a 4344 system.

G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network is so much better.

JBL used G.T.'s 4345 (3145) network in the 4344.

Robh3606? Ian? jarrods? Care to comment? You guys built the 3145 right?


My mind is completely open to any improvement upgrade in all passif circuit orientation.

If 98oo network circuit is better... No problem, just need little help to adap of cut frequency...

For you Opignion Giskard, the Dc charge it is better approach to blend capacitor??

Oh! en passant, bien le bonjour à votre épouse... :D

4313B
04-15-2005, 09:56 AM
.

My mind is completely open to any improvement upgrade in all passif circuit orientation.

I'd have to highly recommend the 4344 upgrade. Hopefully others will add their experiences here.

If 98oo network circuit is better... No problem, just need little help to adap of cut frequency...

Competely different animal; Highly specialized, especially with respect to the characteristics of the H9800/435Be.

For you Opignion Giskard, the Dc charge it is better approach to blend capacitor??

I'm going to have to support the DC charge solution. It's very good. In fact, just the other day I received yet another email in response to a remark about various legacy systems being upgraded with charge-coupled networks stating that not once had JBL run across an instance where the DC charge solution didn't improve the overal system. That sentence probably gets a "D" or "F" for runon but whatever. http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Oh! en passant, bien le bonjour à votre épouse... http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

She isn't here right now... http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif

Earl K
04-15-2005, 10:20 AM
Well, at your taste what is the best ??? ( DC biasing vs blending )

- I generally DC bias all the caps that I can access within any circuit. I would always chose this appoach over just blending caps .

- Blending is my attempt to try to cook up something that I like by combining different inexpensive dielectrics . I just happen to enjoy this pastime more so than buying each & every expensive cap from the worldwide catalogue .

- In the last 1/2 year I've started looking for areas where the bias effect is less pronounced . I'm looking for an "efficacy" statement / on its' implementation / to determine where to best apply the investment. So far one area where the investment in quadruple capacitance seems wasted is on oil-soaked caps. But this is from a very limited representation of available models. OTOH , I've never heard an inexpensive dry film cap that didn't improve with some DC biasing .

So - to repeat ; I've very keen on DC biasing .


:)

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 10:25 AM
AH ah!! I'm look the treasure in deah sea...

well I suppose the 4344 network is need ajusment for the full compatibility of the 4343 driver.
Ex the impedence is the same ???

the cut frecquency is same???

this circuit is better but it is a DC charge???

And finaly What is your best selection if I go in Dc charge circuit, same capacitor, fast cap, oil,etc...

P.S. I wait your wife comment :p

but is if too hard to wait go to : :o:

http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/translate

copy & paste and Voilà !!

:bouncy:

Robh3606
04-15-2005, 10:30 AM
I have the 3145 networks in a pair of 4344 clones. The networks I have were originally built by Ian Mackenzie and used in his 4345's. They use Holovand Caps and the Tapped Inductor solution Giskard posted. I have them biamped with the passive network up top. That network sounds great! It blends the drivers very well but still gives you a lot of control to voice the speakers to your room. You can also get them very flat on axis with just the network alone. I am not sure if you would require any tweeks with the 2121 vs. 2122 but the rest should be fine,

Rob:)

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 01:17 PM
- I generally DC bias all the caps that I can access within any circuit. I would always chose this appoach over just blending caps .

- Blending is my attempt to try to cook up something that I like by combining different inexpensive dielectrics .
...

I've never heard an inexpensive dry film cap that didn't improve with some DC biasing .

:)

MMMMMMMMMM well inexpensive caps all the way ???

OK I just tried to explain if I good understand this problem..

Th DC charge is created a pre-charge load dc signal. In this the caps is preload and the AC transient is modulate the value. So because the caps is already charge , the signal is more fast transient response because the enrgy to load cap is zero !!! If is that this type of circuit ir realy more fast and you have a better corrolar peak. Of course in RMS is relatively the same but in impulsion , the pre-load charged cap is of course realy fast...

But I'm just a little bit crazy and listen this point... :blink:

Of course the time load is one of the big influance of Signature caps. So probably you cancel a big part of signature. But the time response is better if the caps is extra fast in comparison of other... But not more linear in regards of the dc response caps....

So the best is a good cheap blend caps build in DC charge coupled ????

In this the price is same a esoteric caps but more fast and linear with pre-loaded charge and a extra better linear for maybe less money... but little more time for selection match...


:jawdrop:


I'm to crazy, heretic , barbarian ??? :blink:

Ian Mackenzie
04-16-2005, 03:11 AM
Okay,

Yes its better, I even tried the latter 43444Mk11 design and I got better results with the 3145 design.

First decide if you want to bi amp like Robert.

With the expense of charge coupling the midrange I would weigh up bi amping, particularly if your amp isn't up to driving a tough load.

If not my take on this is to charge couple the 52uf (double the values 104+104 UF..ouch $$ also the other shunt capacitor whatever value that is double it as before ) for the 2121 and bypass the larger caps like Daytons with Theta 0.01s or polystryrenes. Alternatively use a Solen like I have and bypass with 0.1uf Solen film/foil...its not bad.

Use some nice film caps(Sonocaps or North Creek ) and charge couple again for the HF and UHF if you can afford and bypass again (with double the values shown 16+16, 24+24, 3+3, 2+2 UF...ouch again $$ ) otherwise grab some Sonocaps and bypass them with 0.01 uf polystyrenes o Theta's like we did with the prototype project May crossovers.

For clarity base the network on the RC values shown in the 3143 network for the mid passband and the hf and uhf passband circuits Robert posted above for the rest (3145 tapped inductor alternative), wind and measure the split coils as above and volia.

There is a bit less sensitivity with the 2235 (the 3145 is designed around the 2245) but there should be lattitude in the attenuation on the pads for the HF and UHF for this not to be an issue.

If you needa a heads up on other details there are plenty of Dab hands around here to walk you through it. Just pay up the Visa and go for it!

Ian


The other no compromise route is here. Unless you have a turbo'd front end and slik amps forget it!

Ian Mackenzie
04-16-2005, 03:18 AM
I can see I am going to have to come out with a Basic Hi End 2 way kit for the 4343 Guru's.

Let me have a cold one and figure it out.

Ian

4313B
04-16-2005, 07:20 AM
The DX-1 is also an alternative for bi-amping the JBL Studio Monitors. I too will champion the bi-amp route. I bi-amped my 4343B's and never looked back (went so far as to hardwire the bi-amp mode and cut that switch out of the circuit).

Ian Mackenzie
04-16-2005, 07:39 AM
I'm going to play and burn in some Auricaps tomorrow and I will post my impressions.

Ian

B&KMan
04-16-2005, 09:46 AM
First decide if you want to bi amp like Robert.




I know the Bi-amp is better and the full 4 amp with electronic crossover is ultimate way...



but Check the bill !!! Platinum VISA
OK reference interconnect 3000$
Cable speakers 5000$
Other amplifier (USED) 5000$
But clean AC power Supply not Sufficient
so other 5000$ (used)
Plus space, Plus system Mechanical decoupling for all extra componend 1000$

Plus if go the total best way 3 other amp and interconnect and cable and regulator.

I'M just dead before Work for this money...

so the realy high end passif crossover IT is crazy??? yes but in sacrifice the better way for run the passif crossover but if I build realy good maybe close astronomical multi-amp amplification...

In other way this crazy big money is cohenrent by the age and quality of the driver and cabinet ???


Well yes a supercrossover, same as Giskard buid for MR Widget is for my point of way the best less onerous way...

The chains is measured by its weakest link...

but for buid a idea of price what your feeling this type of crossover cost ??? :)

For the rest Very thanks Mr Makenzie for hint

johnaec
04-16-2005, 10:47 AM
OK reference interconnect 3000$
Cable speakers 5000$
I really think you could save here...

John

Earl K
04-16-2005, 12:17 PM
Hi B&K Man,

MMMMMMMMMM well inexpensive caps all the way ???

- to clarify ; I consider the Solen line of Metallized PolyPropylene caps to be inexpensive capacitors .
- Some of my other "cheap" MPP caps are actually a little bit more expensive than the Solens.


OK I just tried to explain if I good understand this problem..

Please Go Ahead ,,,,,,


Th DC charge is created a pre-charge load dc signal. In this the caps is preload and the AC transient is modulate the value. So because the caps is already charge , the signal is more fast transient response because the enrgy to load cap is zero !!! If is that this type of circuit ir realy more fast and you have a better corrolar peak. Of course in RMS is relatively the same but in impulsion , the pre-load charged cap is of course realy fast...

- Actually 2 caps "back to back" are likely going to be slightly slower than a single cap from one perspective ,,, .

Dc Biasing - An Analogy ; prebiasing a capacitor is somewhat similar to taking an amplifier that uses the "B" class of operating mode / and then / biasing all its transitors so the complimentary pairs are never "turning-off" ( as in true "B" mode ) . This bit of constant class "A" conductance (at very small voltages) helps the amp designer minimize the typical "B" modes "crossover distortion".
Read pages 10 to 12 on the K2 S5500 product Sheet (http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500.htm) to get a much more coherent description of the philisophy behind this design .


But I'm just a little bit crazy and listen this point...
- I'm listening ,,,,,


Of course the time load is one of the big influance of Signature caps. So probably you cancel a big part of signature.

- To some degree this is true. But it's not just the DC biasing that is at play here.
-Putting any type of cap back to back with a duplicate will alter the signature of the single cap type .
-Why ??? Well, there is now much more dielectric involved to get the same capacitance / this increase in plate area has an effect .
- Also , the length of the dieletric versus the width of the dielectric has dramatically changed / this has an effect .
- I'd say, IME , these 2 physical changes are large contributors to the sonic changes that one hears when the "signature" sound of a single cap is altered .
- The one thing that DC biasing is unparalleled in accomplishing is taming resonances inside the cap. Until one gets rid of these resonances, one is usually not even aware of their very existence. So if a cap has a "signature" sound that is partially dominated by resonances / well / DC biasing will alter that signature quite dramatically .


But the time response is better if the caps is extra fast in comparison of other... But not more linear in regards of the dc response caps....

- Some people think "faster is better" and use that as a mantra/dogma . I don't . Sometimes I'm after "slower" .
- I say it depends on what are the goals that must be achieved .
- For instance ; when trying to blend the dynamic signatures of a compression driver with a baffle mounted coned woofer / I always want to dynamically "slow" down the compression driver a bit / to help it better match the dynamic signature of the woofer. Cone midranges and cone woofers are all ( IMO ) quite dynamically lazy when compared to horn drivers. It's a constant struggle to blend well / but capacitor choice can help make the marriage work.
- If I was dealing with an all cone system , my approach would likely get altered. I could easily understand using all "fast caps" on all those "loofing domes" .


So the best is a good cheap blend caps build in DC charge coupled ????

- That's what I know & that's what makes up my universe at this time so I'm very biased ( ha ha ).

- I do know that considering what I just stated about altering the signature sound of "HiEnd Boutique" caps / I'd be really reluctant to take the chance that I could blindly alter them for the better. Each cap type has to be auditioned in pairs before any credible guess can even be articulated.
- Right now that pursuit is just too rich for my blood .


In this the price is same a esoteric caps but more fast and linear with pre-loaded charge and a extra better linear for maybe less money... but little more time for selection match...

- actually " maybe a lot more time in the selection match " . Caps also need to complement the rest of any audio system . You were recently talking about "silver cable" and different inductor types being "warmer or brighter" . Well , I'd venture that if you purchased all those types that were "bright" and fast / then the last thing you'd want would be an abundance of Solen caps in your system. I'd venture you would "need" Paper in Oil or MPP in Oil or anything that is noted for warmth / just to offset the choices made in those other areas. It's all "Yin & Yang" as far as I'm concerned .


I'm to crazy, heretic , barbarian ???

Who ? You or Me ? :rotfl:

:cheers:

Robh3606
04-16-2005, 12:36 PM
Go Biamp first then decide what you want to do. The biamp is worth it by itself. I use a M552 now and have a 5235 in the wings if I get lucky and the cards show up. I run a full active with different drivers and the biamp set-up with the 4344's and the only difference I can see,not counting the horns used and I am not really sure if this is why, is the full active has better "jump factor" to steal a phrase from Stereophille. Just seems a bit quicker for lack of a better word and has more headroom built in. Maybe a bit more clarity? It could be the drivers. I am also not using any real "High End" equipment at all. Just good basic stuff all studio quality from say the 80's-90's. Got most of it used. Can't see getting a second mortgage to "relax" in front of.

Rob:)

B&KMan
04-16-2005, 05:17 PM
WOW !!!

realy articulated explaination and many serious background experimentation is relevant...


Thanks VERY MUCH.

I take a couple of time to integrate information...

My first problem is: I have not formation in electronic so " my caps is fully charged"

yuk yuk yuk :)

And my english is really NEW second language :o:

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 08:13 PM
Jean,



- From my perspective ( & specifically with capacitors ) ,,, the only worthwhile measurement is what your ears will tell you . The rest is largely bunk and/or marketing jargon wrapped up in some quasi scientific techno babble.


Well I'M not specialist on the caps but for my long experience in audio YES many speech is a voodoo information who many grand is insert in reality.

ex " pur Copper" what is this !!!

99.99 % is pure
other company is 99,9999 is ultra pure and
99,999999 is just pure in other company.

The decimal number is called N purety. so is real good pure copper is minimum 4 N and eventually 6 or 7 N that is a real pure copper but astronoshing price.

the Goertz is if my memory is good 6N

But the silver is realy more fast metal so 4 N is better of 6 N copper.. AH that is real information but many many ass(...) cie is abuse to label pure and discredit the reality associated.

Exactly in same story of : oil vegetable is free cholesterol !!! :blink:

completely crazy !! all vegetable do not contains a animal fat so no cholesterol in any vegetable!!!

I'M shure I exist a difference but the level of precision is exponential price value. the RTA type 0 precision laboratory is sale for around 40.000 and mic fover a 2-3 thousand with preamp... just a fu(..) precision tone calibration is sale for over 2000$ so it is a fraud ??? No !!!

manys is called but little is receive

and at this jungle many many jumps into a grey zone for abuse the client and charge overprice...

:(

But You righ in other way too the design is more critic by each grade of componend.

And many upgrade design is push obsolete a sofisticated old solution. But is not always for the best...

Old condenser ic is very more price but actually is represente the best type of mic... More dynamic amplitude , less coloration, wide band, etc. but really more price...






- Regarding your observations about the "electrical" response shapes from the testing of your 3143 network : any electrical response study only tells a partial story / you'll now need to look at the "net" acoustical responses obtained by the actual drivers with those filters attached.
- Everything you've posted above is really quite interesting ( especially the 2420 circuit ) / but taken alone, those electrical responses don't conclude much of anything .
- an "in room" RTA for each of the 4 sections would be a good next step .

:cheers:

Well, You have Absolutely right again, the electrical response is absolutely compred with the final acoustic response in near field (the near field is .5 -1 inch of the front end driver or little more long for compression driver.

And I have the result so by your interest and interest of this forum I send pict of mic response . ( I just hesitate because many pict is maybe to tired the discussion)

So sorry for guy is look this pict with too sterile technical approach.
:applaud:

Jean

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 09:14 PM
Hi again !!

Heres is blend of fft and DFT mesured in pink and white noise FRF H1 response
Please chack the resolution in DBand scale X , Y for right comprehension.

first I mesure acoustic near field

the port event
2231A
2121A
2420
2405 (this UHF the response is bad and I verified the diaphragme and it scrap... So I order a now set for matching response as possible)

I hope anybody I analyse the electrical sygnal posted on page 1 and the result on this page... interesting correlation...

I back soon with more tecnical tips for rebuilt network 3145 for the 4343 spec driver...

jean
:D

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 09:23 PM
I selected (in white) the frequecy range of driver programme network response

any big horizontal is 5 DB scale in according 40 DB full scale

:)

Jean.

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 09:35 PM
The other no compromise route is here. Unless you have a turbo'd front end and slik amps forget it!

WOW I recognize this is a High-end jod... I want !!!!
:applaud:

for my turbo'd front end I feel just colibri !!! :D

and for a new old worlds I have a SCD 1 OF Sony.
and accuphase electronic and power conditionner...
All Van den hull silver cable...
I hope I'M qualified for a serious job yuk yuk ;)

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 08:27 AM
Hi There (again) ,
- Back to this 52uf cap question. ( After a couple of years ) :p
:cheers:

I study all information about Caps and I just realize the Value of the Schematic of 3143 is 52 MF and all caps mesure is in MF Values

:banghead: :biting: :banghead:

It is a schematic error or what??? :blink:
I check in situ if write on parts and no precision appear...


Anybody Please confirme if is UF OR MF caps :)

Jean.

4313B
04-18-2005, 08:45 AM
MF = uF on JBL schematics...

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 08:48 AM
MF = uF on JBL schematics...

Big thanks Mr Giskard

:p

Jean.

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 09:37 AM
[color=black]Originally I replaced most of the caps in the crossover used on the HF and UHF drivers with vintage Jensen paper in oil caps (1 uF, 1.5 uF, 1.5 uF and 4 uF).

I again Jeph,

I read and re-read with big interest your quote but I realize a surprise...

You change the old caps by .... vintage caps jensen paper in oils caps??? :blink:

this type of caps is not change in time ???

thanks for hint...

Jean

Earl K
04-18-2005, 11:56 AM
B&KMan

About those voltage drives for your network, which you posted on the first page ;

- They do look sort of wacky to me .

- Can you post one for the 2121 midrange ?

- Are you sure that your B&K test equipment leads aren't "loading" that network and therefore "skewing" the results ?

- What impedance leads are you using ?

- The voltage drive for the woofer doesn't make much sense to me / it looks like it has a builtin Very Low Frequency ( VLF ) HiPass filter built into it . Maybe it's your test leads .

- By The Way ( BTW ) . JBL is noted for employing all sorts of various shapes in the stop-band slopes of a crossover . So when you see a bunch of different "turn-over" points show up don't panic / they were designed to be there .

- Nothing in the JBL world of crossover design is simple / if you want simple / try old Altec stuff ( excluding the Model 19 ) . :D

:cheers:

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 12:43 PM
B&KMan

About those voltage drives for your network, which you posted on the first page ;



The generator is real generator type 0 and produce extreme wide frequency,

In this regards 3hz to 25K at white random noise...





- They do look sort of wacky to me .



EUH... Sorry I'm not understand ...



- Can you post one for the 2121 midrange ?


OKAY I have a test but, maybe I'm repeat, but I'm feeling to overload the tread... but no problem, I have perfom test impedence of driver too Do you have pict of this ???



- Are you sure that your B&K test equipment leads aren't "loading" that network and therefore "skewing" the results ?

- What impedance leads are you using ?



Well I run with same cable standart for evaluation as lab test loudspeaker...
In this case I prefer to pass directly by a mono 5hz -25KHZ (flat phase response) B&K amplifier special design for shaker and speaker load in nominal 8 Ohms.

but sound is appear same of my stereo

The cable speaker link is Monster cable 1 feet.. so it is realy short.
the cable, for keep mesure, is probe same as portable electric meter with-out MOhms resistance inside...




- The voltage drive for the woofer doesn't make much sense to me / it looks like it has a builtin Very Low Frequency ( VLF ) HiPass filter built into it . Maybe it's your test leads .



Well acoustical test is appear relatively normal test... but You touch my curiousity. I check . But remember I keep mesure in load all driver in contact at network and work... so my my probe is parallele in standart of load driver. In other side the amp is standart nominal load 8 ohms so do you ahe othre idea where the load is possible not good ???

For my commitment I test, before all start new bunch of test, the integrity of connection

In this case I put my probe direct of post speaker of network for check if amp or speaker is flat response... I send this pict if you want but it is realy flat over a 1000 average works for the test.


Of course JBL Is serious approch and I respect for but in begin in this electronic aspect it is difficult to acquire fast the competence so thanks for this reply and any other...

Jean
:)

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 12:47 PM
B&KMan

- Can you post one for the 2121 midrange ?

:cheers:

There is as your wish


:D

Guido
04-18-2005, 01:13 PM
Looks not too bad.

Pic shows theoretical voltage drive.

Guido
04-18-2005, 01:19 PM
The 52 uF capacitor needs to stay.

This I don't understand.
The 52 (+4) uF Cap is part of the high pass section of the bandpass for the 2121. Why the HF and UHF can't bypass it?

Earl K
04-18-2005, 01:26 PM
"Wacky" ,,,,,, EUH... Sorry I'm not understand ...

"Wacky" = Wierd = or maybe Wrong = or perhaps Messed Up .

B&KMan ;

You had asked quite early on, whether the results you were getting made sense .

- I can't answer that since I don't have a 4343 to measure .

- Maybe someone else can help out here about how the acoustic tests "look".
EDIT : Thanks Guido for your voltage driver pic .
Others have mentioned the wisdom in biamping ( without a projected $40,000 investment ) ;

- I agree with them . Biamping is a great way to go . I think you can make it happen quite nicely for under $2000.00 Cdn ( all included ) .

You have mentioned rebuilding some of the network.

- I think you should start with the Horn Circuit and the Tweeter Circuit ( as well as biamping ).
- "Charge - Couple ™" those parts with Solen caps to start with.
- Its a cheap start.
- If you don't like the sound I have some others to suggest .
- The thing is you have to start somewhere to get a reference point on the sound of caps to be able to create an opinion ( like the one you have about silver cables ).


:)

4313B
04-18-2005, 01:44 PM
This I don't understand.
The 52 (+4) uF Cap is part of the high pass section of the bandpass for the 2121. Why the HF and UHF can't bypass it?Ok. Let me examine it again.

***

The 3143 schematic posted on the JBL website appears to be wrong. Compare with 3141. Thanks for catching that Guido! :)

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 01:48 PM
B&KMan

- Can you post one for the 2121 midrange ?

:cheers:

Earl K

Here impedance test in dual channel according to Thiel and Small including a 1000 Ohms precision resistance.

the drive is direct and out of box.

:D

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 02:02 PM
[i]

You have mentioned rebuilding some of the network.



I not shure if I'M write or read correct but I'm never re-build network, this is my project now and it is my first time...
(Maybe I'm not understand all double sense : my english is too poor)

and realy happy and thanks for Guildo for pict of voltage curve.

I'm print on the spot and analyse response theorical in regards of my response driver...

At this regards my UF is definitively not cut correctly at end... and the double curve down of my 2231 is expression of caps is dry and not maintain charge ...

Guido
04-18-2005, 02:10 PM
Ok. Let me examine it again.

***

The schematic posted on the JBL website appears to be wrong.

The schematic on JBLPROSERVICE says HF and UHF BEHIND 52 uF in passive mode.

I modified my 3143 networks last year, checked this and it is cabled according to schematic.

Damned, now you confused me :(

4313B
04-18-2005, 02:13 PM
I confused you? :no:

They confused us! :applaud:

I really should have paid more attention. :yes:

Just use the 3141 passive schematic. :p Hang on, let me go look at them both again real close.

BTW, run your voltage drive with both 8 ohm and 16 ohm loads and compare the results.

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 02:14 PM
Ok. Let me examine it again.




Giskard, If you need or wannt any complementary test of info let me know...

thanks for all.

I record test for mesure electrical volta with-out 2231 componend connected into a network if this information is pertinant I put on forum

Jean.

:D

Earl K
04-18-2005, 02:16 PM
I not shure if I'M write or read correct but I'm never re-build network, this is my project now and it is my first time...

I understand that you want to rebuild the network sometime in the future.


(Maybe I'm not understand all double sense : my english is too poor)

- I think I am confusing you with past / present / & future tenses of english verbs & phrases .

- Your english is much better than my french.


and realy happy and thanks for Guildo for pict of voltage curve.

- Yes , that was a valuable and timely bit of information .


:D

Guido
04-18-2005, 02:16 PM
:crying: This 3141 schematic also have the 52 uF in Line :shock:


Or am I :screwy: now?

4313B
04-18-2005, 02:20 PM
Yeah, they both look jacked up.

Run your voltage drives with the wire on either side of the 52 uF and note the changes. Know what I mean?

Guido
04-18-2005, 02:24 PM
Yeah, they both look jacked up.

As I wrote, they are cabled like that !

Aha! We found the ultimate way to optimize a 3143 network :p

4313B
04-18-2005, 02:26 PM
Run your voltage drives with the wire on either side of the 52 uF and note the changes. Know what I mean?

Guido
04-18-2005, 02:27 PM
Know what I mean?

Exactly ;)

But it will take time to do that.

4313B
04-18-2005, 02:30 PM
I get changes for the MF and HF but the UHF stays pretty much the same since that value only changes from the nominal 1.0 uF to a nominal 0.98 uF.

I guess you guys will need to see which sounds better.

Anyway, at least now you see why I said that 52 uF had to stay...



No wonder I ran mine bi-amped! :rotfl:

Guido
04-18-2005, 02:49 PM
Anyway, at least now you see why I said that 52 uF had to stay...

Honestly I see no sense why. I biamped mode it is out also. So what the heck.....
They confused us :yes: again

Earl K
04-18-2005, 02:55 PM
- It might have been a direction taken in circuit design / based soley on power handling concerns .

- That 52 uf cap pretty effectively protects the 4uf & 1uf from over voltage.

- Too bad one has to listen to it to get the benefit of its' protection .

:)

4313B
04-18-2005, 03:06 PM
I'm inclined to think it was a mistake.

I'd try wiring it so the 52 uF is only in the MF bandpass.

See how it sounds.

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 05:22 PM
- It might have been a direction taken in circuit design / based soley on power handling concerns .
:)

Bonsoir et merci pour tout ces réponses
(Good night and thanks for all reply)


First sorry for confuse "time conjugate" It is tuff to integrate complex electronic material with fence language. :o: Apologise.

(Iti s very long to compose the response and try what is exactly the response data in my language)

For this point the 52 UF is run more safe because the caps is more chunk exact...

Of couse if I subtitute the 52 Cap by a 40 caps plus other 10 Uf caps Plus 2 X 1 UF caps all these caps is in parrallele circuit ??? Yes ???

So in according the big caps is (EX: 200V) all caps build in parrallele is minimum 200V) ??? For safety right ???

I try a other way my same question....

What is a criterion for maching parrallele " component circuit Caps) in regards at the voltage at start ???

ex: if I have a 52 Uf and the capacity is 400 V all parrallele cicuit caps is value of 400V or alll is sum of 400V ???

:)

Jean.

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 05:26 PM
Looks not too bad.

Pic shows theoretical voltage drive.


HEYS GUYS

Finnaly this spec is corrolar to 4343 response or not ???

:blink:

Thanks

Jean

Earl K
04-18-2005, 05:35 PM
Hi Jean

Of couse if I subtitute the 52 Cap by a 40 caps plus other 10 Uf caps Plus 2 X 1 UF caps all these caps is in parrallele circuit ??? Yes ???

Yes,,, that combination = 52 uf .


So in according the big caps is (EX: 200V) all caps build in parrallele is minimum 200V) ??? For safety right ???

Yes,,, capacitors when added in parallel get a voltage rating from that of the smallest rated (voltage) cap.
So,,,, if they are all rated at 200 volts,,, the combinations has a rating for 200 volts.

Capacitors is series have the voltage ratings of the two caps summed .
So,,,, two 100 volt caps in series has a voltage rating of 200 volts .


I try a other way my same question....

What is a criterion for maching parrallele " component circuit Caps) in regards at the voltage at start ???

ex: if I have a 52 Uf and the capacity is 400 V all parrallele cicuit caps is value of 400V or alll is sum of 400V ???

If the circuit actually needed a 400V rating / then all the caps that you use to make up a 52uf combination should have a 400 volt rating .

But, generally , JBL uses a lot of 100 volt caps in its crossover .

<> :cheers:

B&KMan
04-18-2005, 11:10 PM
Looks not too bad.

Pic shows theoretical voltage drive.



Well, this pict is a gold information... (I assume is relevant of the 3143 spec.)

After print in big scale, and check my all mesures and build hand curve by comparison of report data. the verdict is this pict.

(I adapt my scale x and y for good corrolation in this graph.) :D

The weird curve of 15 inch 2231 is
below at start ???
double slope is expression of bad caps no ???

What the f(...) with 2420. Bad soldering ??? bad caps ??? or

nightmare a war of clone !!! :blink:

It is possible to thrd part is expose this problem of maybe the other remplacement diaghram is not exact good response ???

So I will go at my start question what the life of CAPS
(according of the type) ???

Thanks again Guildo for this precious pict

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 07:30 AM
But, generally , JBL uses a lot of 100 volt caps in its crossover .

<> :cheers:

Thanks Earl for tips

Other question in this regards,

My small yellow caps is 200 V but readable info on caps is 200 V => :blink:

this is a V DC or VAC rating???

The 200 VDC is Eqivalent to half ac power no ?? so maybe 100 VAC is good read ??

Anybody is ok whit that ??



Of course the Signal is AC but many CIE is put DC RATED no ???.
:)

Earl K
04-19-2005, 02:46 PM
Hi Jean


My small yellow caps is 200 V but readable info on caps is 200 V =>

this is a V DC or VAC rating???

- It could be a DC rating. It's hard to know if it doesn't say .
- When I mention a rating I'm talking DC .
- If I was you, I'd buy Solens 250V caps. That's more than enough in a rating / plus I like the length to diameter ratio of these caps more than the higher voltage types .
- Remember 2 , 250V caps in series ( end to end ) = a 500 volt cap .


The 200 VDC is Eqivalent to half ac power no ?? so maybe 100 VAC is good read ??

- Yes, 200VDC does at least equal 100VAC maybe even 130 VAC .

<. Earl K

Earl K
04-19-2005, 03:10 PM
Hi Jean ( again )


Well, this pict is a gold information... (I assume is relevant of the 3143 spec.)

After print in big scale, and check my all mesures and build hand curve by comparison of report data. the verdict is this pict.

(I adapt my scale x and y for good corrolation in this graph.)

- Nice work on overlaying your voltage drives ontop of Guidos , it certainly helps make useful comparisons .


The weird curve of 15 inch 2231 is
below at start ???
double slope is expression of bad caps no ???

- maybe not


What the f(...) with 2420. Bad soldering ??? bad caps ??? or

nightmare a war of clone !!!

- see below


It is possible to thrd part is expose this problem of maybe the other remplacement diaghram is not exact good response ???

- Well, aluminum diaphragms do wear out by getting hard ( usually around the suspension ) / but that usually limits the lower frequency response / you have just the opposite happening .

Here's my thought for today ;

- Guidos' pic of the voltage drive of the 4343 crossover uses a 8 ohm resistive load. ( I believe )

- To make a meaningful comparison to his pic / you should rerun your tests with 8 ohm load resistors in place of the drivers .

- Then you can compare the theoretical crossover ( Guido ) to its' practical implementation ( you ). Right now your drivers act as loads that are much more complex than Guidos' simulated voltage drive. Your drivers ( loads' ) have inductive and capacitive reactance that isn't accounted for with Guidos voltage drives which is only a simple resistive load .



So I will go at my start question what the life of CAPS
(according of the type) ???

- Since you live in or near Solens' hometown ( I think ) you can easily get Solen stuff relatively on the cheap ( sans shipping ) .

- To start, I'd just buy a bunch of the appropriate value caps ( no DC biasing for now ) / install them / and rerun your voltage tests . Thats the KISS method at work .

:cheers:

Robh3606
04-19-2005, 04:53 PM
I would consider building the 4344/45 network. Both the 4340 and 4343 have a peak in the midrange drivers passband. The 4344/45 network does a good job of supressing this peak in the drivers response, in this case the 2122H. I would also not keep the 52uf in series with the High and UHF drivers in passive mode but wire them like the biamp set-up. In the 4344/4345 schematic they are all in parrallel. The drivers used in the 4343 and 4344 are for the most part identicle for the High and UHF drivers so underlying issues such as powerhandling should not be a problem. Attached is a 2 meter in room measurement on my RTA 1 second averaging. This is raw with no EQ.


http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1974-4340/page2.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1977-4343/page3.jpg

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1981-4345/page03.jpg

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3145%20Network.pdf



Rob:)

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 05:49 PM
Attached is a 2 meter in room measurement on my RTA 1 second averaging. This is raw with no EQ.
Rob:)

Thanks ver much for many hint but before analyse that lease let me know what is Y scale of the RTA jpg ??? what db value for each pixel ???


:)

Jean.

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 05:56 PM
Hi Jean ( again )
- Nice work on overlaying your voltage drives ontop of Guidos , it certainly helps make useful comparisons .
:cheers:

Well thanks for limitation and hint of this test.

In according , the driver is less than 8 Ohms and react on signal on other hand the random noise is not contain transient or hight peak so the rms is realy good...

Last night I try to understand the debate on guildo and giskars on 52 UF caps is serial or parralle on hot signal in regards of HF and UHF.

Actually my alanlyse Is demonstrate the 52 UF is parralle in regard of positif signal HF and UHF but the 4 UF caps is in serial for HF AND UHF !!! :blink:

It is a wrong build or what ???

I dismentale the other speakrs tonight for determine is wrong montage at specific or the schematic is little wrong...

But for now thanks very much (and thanks for your comprehension of my "wack" english
;)

jean.

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 06:00 PM
Attached is a 2 meter in room measurement on my RTA 1 second averaging. This is raw with no EQ.

Rob:)

Please let me 2 others questions...

1---

1 seconds is Half of the time SLOW in slm or standart ISO...

Well Incridebile beautyful line !!!

2---
What is the second pict on paper B&K ???

Thanks

Jean
:)

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 06:03 PM
- It could be a DC rating. It's hard to know if it doesn't say .
- When I mention a rating I'm talking DC .
- If I was you, I'd buy Solens 250V caps. That's more than enough in a rating / plus I like the length to diameter ratio of these caps more than the higher voltage types .
- Remember 2 , 250V caps in series ( end to end ) = a 500 volt cap .

- Yes, 200VDC does at least equal 100VAC maybe even 130 VAC .

<. Earl K


Well Let me ask a last question for now...

The time rate it is in comparison of the capacity volatage ???

More voltage more slow time transient response no ??? more energy keep by caps ???

Thanks

Jean

Robh3606
04-19-2005, 07:16 PM
Hello Jean

That is a Behringer 8024 display. It is set for 1db per pixel in the Y scale.

The second picture is the raw 2122H response curve to show the rise in response the networks flatens out. I have ran the 2122H in an all active network and you need to notch out the response above 800Hz before your crossover point at 1.2K.

Rob:)

B&KMan
04-19-2005, 07:52 PM
Hello Jean

That is a Behringer 8024 display. It is set for 1db per pixel in the Y scale.

Rob:)


So full actual scale is 80 dB Right ?? and all "line" horizontal is 10 dB ...

I observe you have a kill echoe option it is work good ??

VERY Impressive curve...


:applaud:

Robh3606
04-19-2005, 08:27 PM
If I cross reference that level at 2 meters with my SPL meter the average is about 73dB so at 1 meter it's close to 80db. Full scale is another 30db above the average. It's a strange scale it runs 64dB full range and 8db for each of the 8 major divisions. If I was running .5 db per pixel it would be 4db per major division 32 full scale.

Rob:)

Guido
04-20-2005, 03:31 AM
Here are some more informations about the 2121H

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2985&highlight=2121

4313B
04-20-2005, 05:42 AM
I've been working on a simplified schematic for the 4344/4345 Rob. Would you be willing to try it out and measure it?

Earl K
04-20-2005, 06:04 AM
Hi Jean


Well Let me ask a last question for now...

The time rate it is in comparison of the capacity volatage ???

More voltage more slow time transient response no ??? more energy keep by caps ???

I interpret your question to be asking the following ( correct me if this is wrong ;

Is there a direct correlation between the "Slew Rate" of a capacitor and its' voltage capacity ?
__________________________________or
_________________ ( which by extension might be rewritten as ):

____________ Does a thicker film effect a capacitors "Slew Rate" ?

- Simple answer / I don't know .

- I'll have to go read some specification sheets for industrial grade capacitors.

- I'll get back to you with what I find out.

:cheers:

4313B
04-20-2005, 06:12 AM
I would consider building the 4344/45 network.Yes. I've harped on this incessantly. Anyone who owns a 4340, 4341, or 4343 has the golden opportunity to update their system to a 4344. Recone the 2121's as 2122's and build the 4344 networks. If you're going to spend alot of money on network components you might as well put that money into the better version.

Ian Mackenzie
04-20-2005, 06:24 AM
Its strange I agree the way the netwok is all pass the hf and Uhf via the 52uf capacitor.

I doubt the reason was voltage of the capacitors, as in bi amp mode the 52 is bypassed the if that were the case it would be worst.

However, it could be an attempt to provide overall uniform group delay to the whole Mid, hf and uhf drivers.

They might have also found an anomally with the overall phase response and felt it was better to keep consistency.

The mid transition 2nd orderer filter of the 4343 is mistuned to minimise mutual coupling of the 2121/2231 and again this may have created a whacky effect on the 2121 which if not also feed to the 2121 and 2405 might have shown up as a side effect of the 2121 and 2405 were not part of that filter.

That probably is it , I recall I had a hell of a time with the crossover when I built my 4343. I did not have access to the schematic at that point (c Sept 1979) and Gary Margulius wrote me a nice letter back when I asked for information. As I recall bass/mid transition really sucked as did the rest of it until I diced the bass/mid filter in favour of bi amping. ( the Nakamichi blcok box crossover was about 6 db down at 320hz)

Capacitors back then were like wet sponges and I recall I actually blow up the bi polar 50volt capacitors in my prototype network. They popped like streamers. I started off with text book values after measure the impediance and then spent 6 months tweaking the chokes in the HF passband until until it voiced better than anything else on the planet.

Dang it I am on holidays, why am I sitting on this, no its a JBL holiday!

Hope that helps unlock the mystery.

regards

Ian

4313B
04-20-2005, 08:48 AM
Ok. Here's a simplified schematic for the HF and UHF in a 4344 or 4345. DCR is extremely important and this model used Jantzen 18 and 20 AWG coils.

I wouldn't waste my time with a non biased version with a system of this caliber once I determined this model was good to go. RobH says my last version is damn nice so, you have three to choose from. Wind your own tapped autotransformers :barf: , use my previous equivalent circuits, or try this one.

Have fun and post results.

Ian Mackenzie
04-20-2005, 02:21 PM
Nice.

I am curious, what are the differences in the voltages drives b/n the equivalent circuit with the simplified schematic?

Ian

4313B
04-20-2005, 03:22 PM
Orange is "old equivalent", green is "new equivalent", white is actual "tapped autotransformer" model.

Orange was done from 1981 Engineering Design Specification voltage drive using datapoints - all L-Pads open - all 8 ohm dummy loads.

There is enough slop in the L-Pads that both are viable - the new model should be cheaper to build with less parts.

B&KMan
04-20-2005, 03:27 PM
Ok. Here's a simplified schematic for the HF and UHF in a 4344 or 4345. DCR is extremely important and this model used Jantzen 18 and 20 AWG coils.

Have fun and post results.


Thanks for your time Giskard.
And thanks for your hint Ian.

Actually I have a emergency to close speaker fast because I have two kids and my living-room is a disaster zone by my two big speaker dismental on area :D

So I decide to build little upgrade with parts
(eventely recycling in futur new complete crossover construction)

Here pict in according of Ian recommendation : I change cheap polyester caps by a big film foil caps solen silver solder, cancel switch post on speaker.

I re-buid speaker tomorow and I send my impression later , I hope you wait a couple of days befaore post impression because I not burning caps before...

By the way I install a new 2405 diagram origninal and clean my 2420 diagram.

So, all in this, it is shure the high section is probably sound to realy too hight (same steel on chalkboard) :biting:

But I triying to syntetize all info and try to buid schematic of Charge couple biaising circuit for all driver !!! :bouncy:

This is my new objective and I stimulate certainly, if you agree, your higher competence again... :D

Jean

B&KMan
04-20-2005, 04:14 PM
Ok.
I wouldn't waste my time with a non biased version with a system of this caliber once I determined this model was good to go.
Have fun and post results.

Hi again Giskard,

first thanks thanks and thanks again for your effort and time.
(same fo you Earl )

Well I feel like in kids who not good comprehension in regards on explanation :confused:

1---
I keep feeling on your posts, the best circuit is 3145 and modifying for charge circuit biais?? no ??

2---
I'M not good comprehension what is circuit battery control voltage and where is put in the circuit. In this regard it is possible to build Hand schematic on LOW frequency (for ex)

3--- I'm in impression the air core is definitively better in choke or autotransformer coil ??? In this case, It is preferable to build in according the equivalence no???

4--- I try to build a complete crossover in charge biais circuit for all 4 drivers of my 4343.

5---

On your circuits pct what is DCR represent and the few number ir Ohms resistance ???

Thanks
The quest continue.

Ian Mackenzie
04-21-2005, 12:35 AM
Orange is "old equivalent", green is "new equivalent", white is actual "tapped autotransformer" model.

Orange was done from 1981 Engineering Design Specification voltage drive using datapoints - all L-Pads open - all 8 ohm dummy loads.

There is enough slop in the L-Pads that both are viable - the new model should be cheaper to build with less parts.

Great stuff,

Well we have two viable alternatives now!:applaud:

Ian

B&KMan
04-21-2005, 07:17 AM
[color=black]I have never gotten around doing anything about the 52 uF capacitor originally discussed in this thread. I have found a couple of possible replacements, but I am no longer so sure that the original 52 uF cap used is all that bad, although it annoys me that so much of the signal has to pass it.

I again Jeph

I just sended a pict of new caps replacement of "nasty yellow caps"

I Cancelled the $#%$%? switch close to speakers post....

The result of analyser is Big difference... If you want result pict let me know...

For now I have a hint for you.
Because I'm leave in half hour of solen I go yesterday for buying caps and talk a hour with Cristian Of Solen.
At this meeting I test my nasty yello caps and it is a polyester caps, the form is bad and result of dielectric dissipation is hight ... At my big surprise the caps is good but insane effecacity... the %dissipation is .0456 and the new solen is .000438 so the effect of sponge is the hidde effect


I talk for life caps with guy. Of course the life depend of type: Polyester ot metal film , etc. is long life but the electrolytic caps is maximum 15 years time life... The current pass but the dissipation energy factor is crest by age. This explanation is corrolar by fact : my L pads is put arround to -3 db for flat response noise pink noise mesure with RTA. The electrolytic 72 Uf is probably more tired than 52 Uf because 80% current is pass on 15".

For the point of view of Cristian It is absolutely shure the big electrolytic caps is scrap and tottally innefficient. (I'm exiting to go in shop for test my cap in sofisticated caps analyser...)

Of course the resistance and manys other parts in crossover is so cheap and too used... no surprise...

Well, One other information interview... Cristian of Solen is explain the mix of capacitor is valuable only if you build design with cheap caps. If you put fast caps "first grade" solen (look pub no?) the soldering in parralle is more altering result of the difference of each Caps.

Because the Fast caps is fast, Cristian is not shure is relevant to preload fast caps and it is not shure the quantity of parts and soldering contact is make less result by simpliest one fast caps result...

Other hint interview, Cristian aggree is compression driver is sound probably better with more slow caps... depend design state od driver, etc, etc,

Other hint , Solen is close to put a tefflon caps in market : really hight voltage capacity (1000) and apparently top on the line in sound quality, but the price is really high 4 to 5 higher price than actual high line Film and foil.

I hope this informations is interesting

:)

Jean.

4313B
04-21-2005, 07:55 AM
Very nice!

Thanks Jean :)

***

Here's my charge-coupled, all Solen, 250Ti network. Photo courtesy of jblnut.

4313B
04-21-2005, 07:59 AM
Charge-coupled 3144/3145 network schematic for JBL 4344 and 4345 Studio Monitors.

Schematic moved to Post 124 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52286&postcount=124)

B&KMan
04-21-2005, 08:46 AM
Ok this result is dedicate of all members help in this hard road on update and upgrade network JBL...

After 12 hour of burning white noise network.

The result of 2121 is drastically corrected.

If you check the delta Y value, the unmodified network is 3.7 Db difference in thin line vertical to heavy line vertical So the difference of is more than double power. :banghead:

After cancel switch and change solen caps the difference is 0.62 dB
AHHHH that is better curve no? :D

Want more result ???

:)

Jean.

existential question: the nasty yellow is the problem or switch ??? :blink:

Earl K
04-21-2005, 10:16 AM
Hi Jean


Other hint , Solen is close to put a tefflon caps in market : really hight voltage capacity (1000) and apparently top on the line in sound quality, but the price is really high 4 to 5 higher price than actual high line Film and foil.


I hope this informations is interesting

- It is interesting & Thanks for posting Solens' ( Cristians') opinions.


Well, One other information interview... Cristian of Solen is explain the mix of capacitor is valuable only if you build design with cheap caps.

- No doubt he would be horrified from looking at my first picture . :eek: :rotfl:

- This combo is a single 20uf "Solen" MPP surrounded by (6) .47uf "CDET" Mylar Film & Foils. The others are (2) .079uf "F-Dyne" Polypropylene Film & Foil and (2) .090 PolyStyrene Film & Foil ( of unknown brand ) .

- The combo is slated for testing out as a DC biased pair. Still need to scavenge another 20uf Solen from around here.



If you put fast caps "first grade" solen (look pub no?) the soldering in parralle is more altering result of the difference of each Caps.

- Yes, all the caps in parallel can dramatically change the final results


Because the Fast caps is fast, Cristian is not shure is relevant to preload fast caps and it is not shure the quantity of parts and soldering contact is make less result by simpliest one fast caps result...

- I'm without opinion since I don't have a 4343 and a 52uf cap to worry about . (That is what you were commenting about , was it not ? )
- If he was commenting on DC biasing / then / he should try it out / there's "no comparison" especially with Solen caps ( IME ).


Other hint interview, Cristian aggree is compression driver is sound probably better with more slow caps... depend design state od driver, etc, etc,

- I generally think compression drivers and Solens don't mix ( DC biased or not ) / but granted, I haven't yet tried every permutation & combination .


- I promised pics a while back .


- The first I've mentioned.
- The second is a single Solen 3.3.uf strapped across a resistor creating a High Frequency EQ ( HF, EQ ) .
- The third & fourth are other caps "blended" & DC biased to recreate essentially a 3 uf ( HF , EQ ) .

- Note the difference in sizes .

- You'll just have to accept my word on what sounds better to my ears . :D

<> :cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
04-21-2005, 02:31 PM
Here to assist those keen to update the 3143 are some near field curves of the drivers using the "old equivalent" 3145 network on a 4345 baffle, the 2122H, 2420+DR2425 dias, 2405 and full response.

At least you get some idea of the respective driver outputs and the combined overall response.

Ian

B&KMan
04-23-2005, 11:04 AM
3144/3145 biased

WOW!! bravo Giskard for this pro jobs...

and thanks for post.


:applaud:

Jean

I trying to analyse all info for build Dc biais circuit on my speaker this week...

B&KMan
04-23-2005, 11:39 AM
Hi Jean
- It is interesting & Thanks for posting Solens' ( Cristians') opinions.



I re-read my post and I add other info of solen Cristian Opignion.

1--- Caps is fragile in vibration and it is important to fix for minimize the tribo-electric effect.

A-- never glue with hot gun glue it is too hot and destroy the caps
B-- Never tarap in center you deform the caps and altering the result
c-- Tarap on each side is really better or glue with epoxy of glue.

(My experience of ingeneering vibration is the result is great if you fix caps
with the harder glue as possible for minimize the signature vibration of glue: epoxy or crazy glue is top.
Bee wax for temporary set up is best.

Personnally I put crazy glue of all caps Into my modification. So all is fixed by other caps and glue into board of network... It is " crazy" but realy best solution :)

I hope this info is happy for build better set-up.

===========================

Earl , thanks for manys quality info and picts, I'm back soon for analyse and result in this regards...

I'm not shure if i write correctly or read good your point of view but Cristian is not explain 2 caps of parralle is better of one...
the soldering of 2 is decrease response in regards of one. this is real only for fast Caps.

Another point of view in the world of sea :o:

well for your caps build, I have no real point of view and open my mind in any sensitive experience... The reality of complexe phenomenon is rarely completely explain by one theory... many voodoo experience touch of many factor and for this it is not good to close the mind of experience.. :)

Of course the quality of your contact, and the vibration of the kit is not best, but the effect of the skin on caps is probably more dilute in this type of set-up caps. But more less efficience caps more skin effect.
So you build more a personnal signature and fast caps is maybe less signature by efficience dielectric.

What is right ??? maybe a part of all... More fast less effect but never caps is perfect :D

The other way is maybe the DC charge :blink:

I check my response electric of 2420 connected in network before and after the modification caps. And, if I compare the response of the network+2420...

the polyester caps more slow and effectively build relatively a better curve response by caps Solen. the problem is the iregularity of response
this problem of 2420 is attenuate by "slow" caps and the skin effect build by poor efficience caps polyester...

In other hand , because the caps solen is more loose energy and build less skin effect, the response is more clear and more power, so it is important to replace the L-pad in consequence...

And the burning is really long time 305 Hours for complete burning...
after rodding, this impulse and harmonic transient is really more wide deep and soft...


:bouncy:

Jean

Zilch
04-23-2005, 11:46 AM
I trying to analyse all info for build Dc biais circuit on my speaker this week...SO, no more concers about potentially losing the JBL "Signature Sound?" :p

[Sorry, low blow....]

Earl K
04-23-2005, 12:26 PM
Hi Jean


I re-read my post and I add other info of solen Cristian Opignion.

1--- Caps is fragile in vibration and it is important to fix for minimize the tribo-electric effect.

A-- never glue with hot gun glue it is too hot and destroy the caps
B-- Never tarap in center you deform the caps and altering the result
c-- Tarap on each side is really better or glue with epoxy of glue.

(My experience of ingeneering vibration is the result is great if you fix caps
with the harder glue as possible for minimize the signature vibration of glue: epoxy or crazy glue is top.
Bee wax for temporary set up is best.

Personnally I put crazy glue of all caps Into my modification. So all is fixed by other caps and glue into board of network... It is " crazy" but realy best solution

I hope this info is happy for build better set-up.

- Your views on "Micro-Vibrations" are very interesting .

- My favourite cap ( in the house ) has the film fully "encased" within a layer of epoxy ( I cut one open to look at why it was so big ).

- I can't talk now / since I'm on shows till next weekend .

- Maybe sometime we can just talk about capacitors & micro-vibrations ( best , in the Off-Topic section ).

- As I mentioned before, I don't have a 4343 / so my usefulness in this thread has just about expired except to act as a cheerlleader for DC biasing .


:cheers:

B&KMan
04-23-2005, 02:01 PM
SO, no more concers about potentially losing the JBL "Signature Sound?" :p

[Sorry, low blow....]

execellent touch point... :eek:

Unfortunatly, this is my big hauting memory in this adventure... :shock:

well, in one hand: the driver, cabinet and cable is build a particular équilibrium sound. And any upgrade is maybe destroy this equlibrium by improvement one aspect in regards to the rest.

And other hand the original part is scrap and not available, many upgrade in regards of theorical approach... multi-caps, dc charge, upgrade cable to monster cable, pressWood to MDF on Jbl evolution proof to improve design with out loose signature...

Well I try to keep signature of each and try to respect that, But, never I put third part diaghram into driver (ex)...

So I hope to build improvement with not loose the JBL equilibrium signature...

It is delicate process and I try to keep the maximum info before attemps any modification.

In this case I big respect and recognition of this forum to help improvement with minimum wander in the ways of upgrade ...
;)

Jean.

P.S. The final result is post after complete test rodage (5 weeks) I promise...
:D

==========

Ian Mackenzie
04-23-2005, 03:16 PM
SO, no more concerns about potentially losing the JBL "Signature Sound?" :p

[Sorry, low blow....]

What exactly is that?

East Coast you mean...LOL, and more recently Mid West tending towards East Coast...I mean hello. Then there is a Japanese signature?

Perhaps the best approach is a crossover network that has no undue influence in terms of distortions and colourations. The signature therefore transends from the drivers* themselves and the voicing and blend created the the network.

If we look at the evolution of JBL crossovers, the trend has been on capacitors mainly. Non polarised film, then bypassing and more recently charge coupling. Obviously they are looking to extract the most from these passive elements comensurate with cost as distinct from the behaviour of the drivers*.

Ian

B&KMan
04-24-2005, 10:23 AM
3144/3145 biased ( post 100 in this tread )

Hi Giskard

I analyse many informations and schematic 3144/3145...


1--- Why you change serial caps to parralle caps ???
the 3 set caps for med hi and uhf is mounted in parrallele ....

2--- I'm not familiar in DCR expression what is this and why not change by a air core ???

3--- the value of the schematic is not for my component 2231 , 2121, 2420...
The value it is equivalent and compatible ????


Thanks again Giskard for your time.

:)

4313B
04-24-2005, 11:48 AM
1--- Why you change serial caps to parralle caps ???
the 3 set caps for med hi and uhf is mounted in parrallele ....

I did alot of quick cutting and pasting. I'll fix the schematic and replace it.

2--- I'm not familiar in DCR expression what is this and why not change by a air core ???

DC resistance of the coil. In this schematic the specific DCR values are selected to properly affect the knees of the curves (parallel coils) and the attenuation (series coils) for the HF and UHF circuits. The iron core inductors on the LF and MF transducers should be replaced by air cores where possible. A DCR value for them in the 0.4 ohm to 0.6 ohm range should be fine.

3--- the value of the schematic is not for my component 2231 , 2121, 2420...
The value it is equivalent and compatible ????

The values of the schematic are for the transducers specified. The 2420 should work "ok". The 2121 should be replaced by a 2122 or should be reconed as a 2122. The 136 and 2231 were long ago replaced by the 2235H. The 2235H recone kit (C8R2235) is the recone kit for the 136 and 2231.

B&KMan
04-24-2005, 02:33 PM
I did alot of quick cutting and pasting. I'll fix the schematic and replace it.


[i] The values of the schematic are for the transducers specified. The 2420 should work "ok". The 2121 should be replaced by a 2122 or should be reconed as a 2122. The 136 and 2231 were long ago replaced by the 2235H. The 2235H recone kit (C8R2235) is the recone kit for the 136 and 2231.

Hi Giskard,

Thanks for specification,

1-- The 2231A is recently recone (last year ) By 2235 kit replacement :)
2-- The 2121a is recone in same time by last original cone kit 2121 :(
3-- The 2420 is run ok so I'm happy to not change (over 500$ for 2) :D
4-- The 2405 is recone yesterday by original cone kit... ;)

well you redraw the schematic it is possible to change value for air core please ??? :o:

And finally what is big difference in 2121 in compare in 2122
(all is 8 ohms dc resistance... right ??)
the big difference is :

---inpedence ??
---frequency response ??
--- Sensibility ??


Thanks again for all.

Jean.

B&KMan
04-24-2005, 05:45 PM
What exactly is that?

Ian
this guys is tease me :D because I'm start my investigation in effect of modification and respect in same time the JBL Sound signature...

It is fair and proof to read seriously the entire thread... :)

For complete my info pict...

Look the difference of the 2231 after cancel switch and put fresh caps film and foil of solen in higher section...

What a big difference....

Of course my monitor is not slam same because the response around 40-50 hz is more 6 dB of normal response (in mic at near field) so the correction is sound more flat :D but more correct, the texture of the entire sprectre is better, but less slam... but the pict is value of 1000 words...
the elect2231 is response before modification
the after2231 is response after modification
the thin line is the fr. cut of crossover
the bold line is explain fr.

What the difference !!! no rodage in this case because never altering diaghram and soldering....

Realy better....


:bouncy:

B&KMan
04-24-2005, 05:52 PM
this is probably the higher controverse result of this modification.

In touch directly the problem on fast caps versus slow caps in according the compression driver.

the result before is more smooth curve because the caps absorbe the harmonic response of diaghram driver....

but in other hand the drive is more fast and more details because the caps is more fast...

P.S. the caps is not burn-out complete, so, maybe the response is change in the time...

What your feeling in this regards.....


:)

4313B
04-25-2005, 01:44 PM
well you redraw the schematic it is possible to change value for air core please ??? :o: Done - I replaced the schematic in post #100

All the inductors are air cores except the two largest on the LF and MF. Those can be heavy gauge air cores or something like an Erse iron core if desired.

Guido
04-25-2005, 03:01 PM
A-- never glue with hot gun glue it is too hot and destroy the caps

I don't see that. JBL and many other speaker companys did that. I did that too.
Soldering is more dangerous.

4313B
04-25-2005, 03:06 PM
The hot melt glue can damage the capacitors but not if you're careful. I've personally never had a problem as I was warned from the get go to let the glue cool a tad before jamming the components into it. You're right - soldering is more harmful, so an alligator clip heat sink helps.

Robh3606
04-25-2005, 03:33 PM
"Soldering is more dangerous."

Only if you really are a novice. As long as you don't heat the lead for more than a couple of seconds 3-4 you should be fine. You have to remember the parts are rugged enough to withstand the normal commercial manufacturing process. That includes hand soldering, wave soldering and IR reflow both of which preheat the part to within about 50 degrees of the solder reflow temp. With the new no lead solders used overseas and eventually in the US the temperatures are even greater than the lead solders here. If the part cannot survive what is considered normal handling without significant degredation this is commercial suicide for the manufacturer.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
04-25-2005, 03:47 PM
Jean,

Your work is interesting, But are these curves the calibrated mic response or are they the measured voltage drive to the actual drivers?

Ian

B&KMan
04-25-2005, 04:54 PM
I don't see that. JBL and many other speaker companys did that. I did that too.
Soldering is more dangerous.


Hi again,

Now your enter in my specialisation... :D

all vibration cancellation is tribute to the type of system you work !!!

Any material have a signature coloration ( :blink: )

So the first modal response or ( in ingeneering) , 3 first modal responses create a strong signature material, So if you put your caps, in steel : probably your result sound with little taste of steel.

All test vibration is intimate associate with the method of fixation of accelerometer transducer ( mic of material) and any type of glue or mechanical system is exaustively explain in ANSI and ISO methods around the world...

The signature of all smooth material include hot glue, rubber, sarbothane or any other have a heavily damping factor absorbtion vibration. the problem in this question is simple and complex. and probably send a complete thread just for this question....

the problem is " the time dissipation is more slow" in regarsd of the intervale of next exictation... ( I resume very fast). So, the time to energie is down is limited in regards to the next excitation create a higher level noise (rms) floor and induce a higher interference by a hard mecanical system.

this is the same reason any hard and heavy weigh surface is more efficience for dissipation of peak (not rms) .... :blah:

But for now nylon and any hard glue is more preferable to soft fixation because the energie dissipation is more fast and the caps and other sensible electronic parts is transfert more fast bad vibration in other material...

Maybe it's possible to put a hot glue with-out damage the caps, but anyway,
Maybe glue maybe not , maybe altering inside material with-out exterior sign...
Anyway, this method is poor if you compare at epoxy or crazy glue or any hard fixation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, any crossover system is really improvement if you build in composite heavy weight swandwitch board !!! No difference ?? :D

yuk yuk yuk Copernicus say " nontheless is turn !!! "

Any down bkgnd level vibration more clarity and micro information, more dissipate any halo effect and signature!!! If you put down fast dissipation below more than 10 Db you realize a drastic benefict effet on natural and clarity sound result...

:bouncy:

I hope start a complete thread in this major aspect on all electronical and mecanical parts if you hope :D

Jean.

B&KMan
04-25-2005, 04:59 PM
I don't see that. JBL and many other speaker companys did that. I did that too.
Soldering is more dangerous.


The problem soldering not affecte the problem of glue or the center tarap who deform the caps....

Why you not confidence in first hand information manufacture !!!

Of course the method of fixing caps or other sensible parts is possible in many way but cost , certified method, and respect of integrity and easy method to repair determine the best solution...

:)

B&KMan
04-25-2005, 05:21 PM
Jean,

Your work is interesting, But are these curves the calibrated mic response or are they the measured voltage drive to the actual drivers?

Ian


Well thanks for your interest, Ian.

The H1 is the comparison of input signal VS output signal.

Many picts of Win-Air is expose the two response curve and put a syncro signal for corrolar signal in pulse exictation.

My analyser is automatiquely integrate the function compare a-b in H1, 1/H1 H2 1/H2 AND H3 function. This expose the real response (corrected in regards at stimulation system. I hope this is easy aspect for you...

In regards of the voltage:

1--- the voltage of stimulation is arroud 4 volt AC and pass into a amplifier and keep voltage at post of the driver .

2--- so the result is not microphone but a electrical response of the blend of
driver+network. probably better approximation of response of acoustic...

For microphone: the theory presuppose the linearity system (if you exclude the saturation energy). So, very gentle exictation signal or hard signal is same response in H1, Who care is impulse or white noise... Of course many subtil detail precision according depend of type of exictation and signal but in this case it is not relevant difference.)

so my response mic is not the result of stimulate precisely 2.83 Volt driver at 1 meter. For precise curve response it is not necessary.
and it is better less influence, if you put realy near field mic (about 1 inch of front baffle mic; in regards of my technical method mesure Bruel & kjaer)

anyway: check: humidity, temperature, and pressure (bar) and tone calibration + K factor is only right method to create confidence dB response. But if you interesting, I hope to build a sensibility test for you...


For H1 any up power exicting on input X1 is correspond to same correlation of response of output system Y1 so in linear system the H1 is same anyway the level of exictation.


And I happy to explain all confuse info by bad english or many other details with you.

sincerly

Jean

:)

B&KMan
04-25-2005, 07:53 PM
Done - I replaced the schematic in post #100
All the inductors are air cores except the two largest on the LF and MF. Those can be heavy gauge air cores or something like an Erse iron core if desired.

Hi again Giskard,

first: Thanks for corrected schematic....


1--- I just a trace of confuse in my neophyt electronician.

You wrote : The air core of the LF and MF is big value.

but it is best way to go... so, If I decide to go in this way what is final value of core???


2--- the subtitution of other air core inductance with specific DC resistance
it is possible to keep a super air coil (goertz or Hepta-litz) and put resistance for the difference value ???

3--- the air core is the best way... and this type of core is build with no iron parts or core metal right ??

4--- because the Dc charge is (balanced caps) it is the best to match the caps in same value ??? what is tolerance in this case ???


5---
I'm realize the good improvementin LF on schematic 3145 in comparison of old 3143....
--- in case of 2121 I feeling the cut frequency is more higher ( around 1.7K) so the 2420 is more linear in this case but not shure the 2121 is perfome in this area... Right ???

6--- the # 91 post on this threard the value of resistance is not same on your recent schematic 3145 Dc charge... the HF is 3 serial resistor and in # 91 post only 1 ... what is good value for 2420 ????

thanks again so much for all...

Jean.

4313B
04-25-2005, 08:29 PM
Here's a Solen/Mills parts list. You can substitute the Solen resistors if you wish. They run something like $0.50 instead of $3.50 (Mills).

Hang on... I caught another error... :banghead:
Cutting and pasting can be hazardous! :p

4313B
04-25-2005, 08:47 PM
Here's a Solen/Mills parts list along with the schematic from post 100.
You can substitute the Solen resistors if you wish.
They run something like $0.50 instead of $3.50 (Mills).

4313B
04-25-2005, 08:48 PM
6--- the # 91 post on this threard the value of resistance is not same on your recent schematic 3145 Dc charge... the HF is 3 serial resistor and in # 91 post only 1 ... what is good value for 2420 ????

Power handling - 3x 10 W as opposed to 1x 10 W.

Note that you need to unwind those Solen coils to the correct mH value.

B&KMan
04-26-2005, 08:45 AM
Ok, here it is corrected for the Solen values.
I think it's all right this time. :p
Holler if you see any other problems.

Hey!!! Wonderful generous jobs !!! :applaud:

I appreciate extremely !!! thanks thanks and thanks again...

=============================================
more specific questions for you now....

1--- For UHF section
a--- what is " .10mH + 9V " in uhf section ????
b--- Because I'm a 2405 (16 ohms) and the DCR is 8 ohms and the 2405H
is 4 ohms DCR Right??
it is necessary to modifie circuit in according impedance change ???

2--- For LF section
a--- the 5.4 mH air coil is .63 Ohms....
but I found a air core of .30 Ohms...
It is a better but the difference in ohms it is problem ???
It is necessary to compensate by a resistance in serial ???
b--- Heuu.... Giskard it is possible to other cut and paste error:
In your second listing parts you match 33 mfd and 51 mfd for
according of not 2 X 40 Mfd is not available on solen but this caps
is obligation to match value in opposite (according to DC Charge) ???

3--- For MF section
a--- You write put down mH in coil for 2121 => 1.8 to 1.7 but It is necessary to adap the 2420 too

4--- For HF section (according to modification) :
a--- 3 resistance in parralle in 62 ohms but one of .42 Ohms in serial with
.68 mH ?? It is value of coil resistance or it really other resistance
for compensation of transfo coil???
b--- the number of wire in coil transfo is not same to real good air core,
so the time delay it is affected by the short coil VS transfo coil ???

5--- The PB is polypropylene caps 400V...
it is better to build with a bypass at low value in paper and foil ???
( I know is realy higher price but I dont care at this state... :D )

I hope is not too crazy question and it is more clarification of this topic...

jean

4313B
04-26-2005, 12:58 PM
1--- For UHF section
a--- what is " .10mH + 9V " in uhf section ????

A cut and paste vestige - I fixed it.

b--- Because I'm a 2405 (16 ohms) and the DCR is 8 ohms and the 2405H
is 4 ohms DCR Right??
it is necessary to modifie circuit in according impedance change ???

No. All 077's, 2405's and 2405H's are 10 ohm transducers regardless of what is stamped on the foilcal.

2--- For LF section
a--- the 5.4 mH air coil is .63 Ohms....
but I found a air core of .30 Ohms...
It is a better but the difference in ohms it is problem ???

No. Use the 0.30 ohm 5.4 mH coil.

It is necessary to compensate by a resistance in serial ???

No.

b--- Heuu.... Giskard it is possible to other cut and paste error:
In your second listing parts you match 33 mfd and 51 mfd for
according of not 2 X 40 Mfd is not available on solen but this caps
is obligation to match value in opposite (according to DC Charge) ???

The 33 uF and 51 uF in series are closer to 20 uF than the two 39 uF.
Use whichever you want.

3--- For MF section
a--- You write put down mH in coil for 2121 => 1.8 to 1.7 but It is necessary to adap the 2420 too

I'm not going to modify the 3144/3145 circuit for a 2121. It has undesireable breakup modes and I would never use it. Recone a 2121 as a 2122.

4--- For HF section (according to modification) :
a--- 3 resistance in parralle in 62 ohms but one of .42 Ohms in serial with
.68 mH ?? It is value of coil resistance or it really other resistance
for compensation of transfo coil???

5--- The PB is polypropylene caps 400V...
it is better to build with a bypass at low value in paper and foil ???
( I know is realy higher price but I dont care at this state... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif )

I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

B&KMan
04-26-2005, 02:43 PM
I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

ahhhh the difficulty the learn other language... sorry, I try again...


But just before, Manys thanks for precise responses...

-------------------
In question 4 ( i attache pict for more explicite question)
What is best circuit for HF ??? ( 2420 ) This two schema appear OK but different...

--------------------
For question 5 what is best approach for maximise the ideal response caps.
it is better to mix a caps in parralle for erase signature caps in according of many debate on threads???

ex: 1 X 160 uF polypropylene + .o1uF (film and foil) in parrallele for kill signature...


--------------------

And for the end what is your highest experience in regards of internal cable network and link for driver???


--------------------
P.S. I'm really exicting to buidl this network...

I sending a couple of pict of works and final construction...

:)

4313B
04-26-2005, 03:08 PM
In question 4 ( i attache pict for more explicite question)
What is best circuit for HF ??? ( 2420 ) This two schema appear OK but different...

Ok, don't worry about the 2420. It will work in the new schematic.

For question 5 what is best approach for maximise the ideal response caps.
it is better to mix a caps in parralle for erase signature caps in according of many debate on threads???

ex: 1 X 160 uF polypropylene + .o1uF (film and foil) in parrallele for kill signature...

You might wish to try the Solen caps without bypass caps. If they sound too harsh with the JBL compression drivers try 0.01 uF polystyrene film & foil bypass caps. 0.01 uF polypropylene film & foils would be second choice. The bypass caps can be added at any time. Remember they have to be biased too so put each one right in parallel with it's main cap.

And for the end what is your highest experience in regards of internal cable network and link for driver???

I've been using 15 AWG Monster cable from the JBL Ti Series for the last 20 years. It works just fine. Ask someone else what they prefer.

B&KMan
04-27-2005, 08:50 AM
1--- For UHF section

b--- Heuu.... Giskard it is possible to other cut and paste error:
In your second listing parts you match 33 mfd and 51 mfd for
according of not 2 X 40 Mfd is not available on solen but this caps
is obligation to match value in opposite (according to DC Charge) ???

The 33 uF and 51 uF in series are closer to 20 uF than the two 39 uF.
Use whichever you want.



Hi again Giskard.

thanks for info again

Again a stupid question by neophyt electronic guys.... :D


I just remarks is same difference in UHF scetion in schematic 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF (in original plan is 1,5+,01 Uf)

Please just confirm the value ???


By the way, wilson run with powerline car by monsterCable for internal wiring... Well many serious cie is found pleasant Monster product...

Jean.

B&KMan
04-27-2005, 08:57 AM
I'm not going to modify the 3144/3145 circuit for a 2121. It has undesireable breakup modes and I would never use it.


Euh What is the problem with this driver ???? or the cone 2121...

You tilt my curiousity:

I just finish test of sensitivity and run 90,5 dB at 1 meter.

The response in pink noise in 314 Hz to close 4 KHz ... Of course it is not a fresh technologie but I have confidence to work with new schematic no???

The resonnance is 96 Hz ...

thanks for comments.




:)

4313B
04-27-2005, 09:30 AM
"I just remarks is same difference in UHF scetion in schematic 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF (in original plan is 1,5+,01 Uf)

Please just confirm the value ???"

The actual value is 1.8 uF, so 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF in series equals 1.7875 uF.



Try your 2121's then and see if you like them, if you do then you're good to go.

B&KMan
05-01-2005, 10:50 AM
The actual value is 1.8 uF, so 3.3 uF and 3.9 uF in series equals 1.7875 uF.



Hi again Giskard,


Euh.... Another stupid question...

It is not important to build a symetrical value ??? :blink:

------------------

please explain little bit what is "" undesireable breakup modes"" of 2121 cone for help me who put finger in the problem...

------------------

Thanks for yout time and effort...

jean.

:)

4313B
05-01-2005, 11:07 AM
No, it isn't necessary to build a symetrical value.

The problem was fixed with the 2122H. The old inverted paper domes of the LE10, 2121, 2105, LE5-2, etc were fine for their times.

Guido
05-09-2005, 02:19 PM
Heh! The 2121 isn't that bad ;)

Is there a special reason for using 3 MOhm Resistors for the bias voltage? Comon is 2.2 MOhm, right?

4313B
05-09-2005, 03:00 PM
No, you're right! It isn't that bad! It's all a matter of evolutionary changes.

Anything between 2.0 and 5.0 Mohms.

B&KMan
05-09-2005, 09:38 PM
Hi Jean


- No doubt he would be horrified from looking at my first picture . :eek: :rotfl:

<> :cheers:

Hello again Mr Frankenstein Caps !!! ( in regards as your picts caps)

Well, I'm try me too to play a Doctor who create life in sound ( :D )...

OK... OK... OK... I quiet now...



And I have a specials questions for you or for anybody is correspond to description below...


(i hope my english is not too poor so for help me I send schema...) :bouncy:

Start problem:

1 ---- caps loading suck transient or impulse response

2---- caps is signature coloration

3---- size of lead caps is too small for high power....

4--- caps and resistance is not corrolar to gauge wire of internal speakers..


Question 1 is easy resolve by biais dc charge....
====================================
Question 2 it is possibly resolve by charge Dc:
===============================
---- because the charge caps is illiminate signature load and unload ...

----- But maybe not, because signature is in the nature of material and not affected by constant charge...

-----But, Maybe the first factor signature is the size of lead of caps to non corrolar cable and restrict the power handling peak and other impulsion transient ???

See pict 0

If you put a small caps in bypass, you double automatiquely the capacity of power transfer of lead of caps by factor 2... and the power is more relevant to lower FRequency... so maybe the bypass produce more effect by adding lead size transfer power in regard of the nature of caps...


My hypothesis 1 , ( SEE PICT 1 ) I just multiple caps for corresponding to size AWG of cable look better bennefit for loose quality by multiple sodering or type of material caps ???

My hypothesis 2:

Maybe the nature of signature Caps is lead and nature of material.
so, I blend cascade of different type of caps and I put the number to corresponding of size , this hypothesis is resolve 3 problems in same time:
1--- consistent power transfert linear frecquency by multiple lead
2--- More fast power transfert linear frecquency by Dc Charge couple
3--- More transfert linear frecquency by blend type of Caps.


IT iS TOO CRAZY !!! or just perfect lesson of the Franckenstein of Caps



p.s. It is same story for resistance: multiple for lead equal size of internal wire... more corrolar density spectral at lower power...

Let me know your feeling great Earl and all...


Jean...

Earl K
05-10-2005, 05:03 AM
Hi Jean

- I'll give your hypothesis ( about wire size & a link to multiple capacitors ) some thought and respond tomorrow sometime (Wed.) .

- One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?

<> Earl :cheers:

B&KMan
05-10-2005, 06:35 AM
Hi Jean

how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?

<> Earl :cheers:

Hello Earl,

Thanks for evaluation of the question...

For Solen Caps It is too short time for final evaluation.... the complete broken time with crytalisation and harmonic open is 5 weeks... (SIC)

Probably I appear in frankenstein but my expertise in broken is part sound right after 2-3-week but sound drop and wide open just after 5 week full time open system... Actually the sound is just stabilised... the result is difficult to isolate only caps effect because I cancelled switch on back : the switch affect high section of crossover !!!

On other hand I change my 2 Diagram of 2405...and clean contact of my 2420...
So actually I have 10-15 % subjective upgrade more wide, space and minus details is more present.

The bloom is gone but the harmonic is not completely back... I feel more the limit of driver and age...

The low and med is run really better by cancelling the switch...
the 2420 is run really well but little less power average .2 db. (around -2)
Unfortunately the UHF is maybe not completely rodage or what but is run with L-Pad in full foward... (I start thread in this case...) but fairly bloum bloum reaction...

Exemple the 15 is more linear response in response of my instrumental material, but because is more linear is less coloration at certains frequency so the impact of 40 Hz (see my pict) is more punch before but finaly appear wrong... this is difficult to evaluate correctly the difference...

And this the med is more flat response and better easy to place L_Pad with istrumentation, the hight is more flat too but the ultra is less response on 20K at distance... the esponse near field is perfect but in distance the power drop fast ans proportionnal of frequency...

Completely weird: FRF is superbe, phase, distortion at free resonnance appear no problem an 2 kit react identical... it is possible to toast exactly in same value the caps ??? I dont know what is this: Solen is explain no directionnal of caps but yes in theorical, : maybe inverted direction and change value...

I completely dismantel the unit for clean any part of dust and rust ( the trick is pass a business card inside the gap and turn turn, the paper keep the oxidation with out any abrasif tecnique, it is a good method to polish electric point contact but for this type of hard metal it is impossible to sand with just paper... The big benefict is pull out the rust to restrict gap restraint the power of magnet transfert... I pass masking tape in regards of standart method installation and put diagram...

Same procedure for 2420... and run better...

I hope to to respond correctly in your question :D



N"B" You remain Cristian of Solen is annoucement new teflon caps but the start production is hold becasue for correlation of power range of caps the cie is put a little more big lead wire for build and unfotunately the response is not good... So it is go in my theorical position and confirm research in cable : the size of lead is critical for determining the balance linear transfert frecuency.
It is impossible to put 2 lead and one big is bad sound... do you have idea if you put multiple lea the sound propagation is respect and the power too so the best ot all word unless if you consider anther soldering parts...

Earl K
05-11-2005, 01:08 PM
Hi Jean


For Solen Caps It is too short time for final evaluation.... the complete broken time with crytalisation and harmonic open is 5 weeks... (SIC)

- Really ? I can usually tell in the first half-day if I like the direction that capacitor changes are taking the system .

- Sometimes I think this "long breakin period" stuff is just another form of conjured-up marketing-speak, designed "out-last" or "fatigue the buyer" so that they'll forget about pursuing a refund for the purchase price of these expensive caps that don't liveup to their marketing hype. ( But that's just my sceptical nature talking ).

Wire Size & Caps ;

I view a lot of this stuff as I do plumbing ;
- reduce the aperture of the pipe and things will happen to the velocity of the flow.
- I can be easily convinced that all sorts of eddy currents ( from flow restrictions ) become audible when one tampers enough with the current ( flow ).
- Whether these sonic changes are good or bad in the final analysis is beyond my abilities to predict ( though with caps ,I'm at least devoloping a personal / coherent thought process / after a few years of effort )

- I haven't turned any of my attention to wire types, &/or sizes / so I have no personal experiences to share .

<> :cheers:

B&KMan
05-11-2005, 01:56 PM
hi and thanks for comments

I work in informatic in clouple of years...

Late years ago, the computer is not come with co processor math.

so One day my cie is give a coprocessor for gift and evaluation.

So I evaluate crunch value before and after... the result is clear...

But I happy with but the entire computer is little too slow for run pin ball machine software and at 2 ball the time frame is clear appear with easy discrenable frequency... Right ???

so after 3 week (in this case) my computer in bag!! one shot deal broken...

I keep 10 % more speed and consistenly day after day...

morality the theory of tunnel expose in Van den hul site is REAL !!! ... on limit or critical set-up the burning and polarisation of crytal trans electromagnetic is finnaly accomplish and power and micro vibration pop !!! appear brutally...

Of course 95 or 98 % of the result is already there but the flavour is the difference and critical material is process exposition difference...

Actually, the wave burning is start ultra stiff but retain in UHf, finannlay after couple of day the wave is start and blum, high pith is fluctuate, I check actually regullary with my instrumental type 0 grade laboratory material and days after days, i obligation to fix the fluctuation by compasati0on of L-Pad...

Exemple yesterday the sound appers really homogenus but dull, today it is very high pitch ( feeling the LF s dead ) shit !!! I start my RTA and put microphone, look phenomenon, and realise the UHF, because I chage the diagram is produce a very high harmonical in *K and untabilize the subjectif tonal balance...(2 dB) so I just down little bit my L-Pad and VOILÀ ... Wow bettter of yesterday but nothing stable...

I have critial environnement and I garantee this phenomenon is easy listemening, never electronic, cable metal, device is sound musical before complete burn-ing...

In Quebec this phenomenon is standart data and all saller who garantee the satisfaction include 6 week back refound for this reason...

I run professionnly the calibration of High end home theater and the real job in 2 time, just after finist installation and after 6-8 week burning rodage: I compare signature system and OHHHH realy big difference, many system bloom but certains product is inverse.

I burning, hign end level product many many time and this reality is all the time present else special product, same nagra, or Fm acoustic, studer, and very small elective product to pre-burn all conponend for match ... and this all electronic standart device is conform to spec shcematic and product exact reality... the aeropasce is run in same, and couple of very hight level. Tha t is the reason who paid a ordinairy resistance 3-10 higher price. because it is garantee to run perfect in specific canevas...

Well, actually my caps and soldering is not to desagree because the diagram, cable resistance and all other part is already burning, but the magic is not there...


But yes after manys manys experience it is possible to suppose the finish result but in this case some time I have realy surprise of conclusion...

ex, many bright system is put equilibrium tonal but some case i realize the final result is to bloom of finally is to bright!!!.

-----

For your analogy of plumber it is real and exact... I just look the replys on thread post caps and I feeling on regards of related specialist info the better is multiple caps at same value according to AMP is probably better approach to just bypass all the way any circuit. If you build a charge couple, probably more better time response appear... a couple of ms fast is bild the difference of one tone and multiple tone clearly distinst. OH Surprise 2 notes is where you listen 1 yesterday...


Of course the tecnologie of caps and material is probably affect little bit perfect integration... so maybe good selection of different time is create better linear integration or better bad integration...

Ex my 2405 is .6 ms more fast than time response of my 2420. I mesure with the new caps and the time is same but , becasue fuzz is less the time separation is more distinct: result feeling of bad phase listening...

Other case, because the crossover design is relatively not precise the double overlap appear in 8k so no surprise I have a high peek in 8 k and create an feeling to overpitch of high frequencys range...

the tonal balance is really critical... Why L-Pad is creat .2 db by step ??? because this is a critical aspect of balance tonal...

---- This is the reason to talk with many guys who build experimentation for try to isolate each variable... YIAH !!!


ex Plumber effect many high level standart build a start ground for minimise feeback effect: this one proof to interaction is exist and the type of set-up altered the final result !!!


I'm crazy B&KMan...

:)




---- actually it is clear the upgrade is really more transparent but I dont know if is sound metal, to short time but I promise to write the final result...


:bouncy:


Jean.

4313B
05-15-2005, 08:23 AM
Parts Sources in response to PM

www.solen.ca (http://www.solen.ca/)

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/capretusd.pdf

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/indretusd.pdf

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/resistors.html


Note that some people don't like the sound of Solen, others do. Use whatever you want.

B&KMan
05-15-2005, 08:47 AM
- One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
<> Earl :cheers:

I promise to back ....

The burning is not finish but I send pict of problrm of UHF AND HD delay...

I run manys investigation for more comprehension of problem and big chance the problem is the electrolitic and he inductance iron core creta delay by wrong conception and fatigue material...

It is shure the time reaction of hight frequency is more snap than standard driver and especialy in low driver...

I put FAST caps in HF and UHf and the problem is the set-up of old 3143 IS to fast :biting:


So I wait to complete parameter for built complete DC biais crossover and eventually integration of time phase for change complety...

Look pict , it is more clear than my worse english... :D
in order start letf to righ
1--UHF response, 2 UH response, 3 med & Low response...

Earl K
05-15-2005, 10:53 AM
Hi Jean

- About the middle of last month ( Apr. ) Guido & Giskard revealed that the audio signal on the way to the horn & tweeter network passed through the 52uf midrange capacitor. Did you explore these statements to find out if they applied to your network or not ? ( to do so, simply unsolder one 52uf cap and take note of what components won't reproduce any sound, ie ; what "turns off" . )

- If your horn & tweeter network legs are being funneled through that 52uf cap / you'll be waiting until "Hades freezes-over" for your new Solen Film & Foil caps to start sounding even OK. Believe me ; the sound of an old 52uf NPE will completely dominate/mask any quality resolution that might be residing in any quality 2uf capacitor. It's a simple matter of ratios .

- My point ? do as Gerard stated in the thread on Capacitors and get rid of those stock 52uf caps.
At the very least , wire around them the parts of the circuitry that feed into the compression driver & UHF portions of your networks.

- This critical info ( relating to HF & UHF resolution & sound quality ) was laid out in posts 54, 56, 59, 63 thru 71, & 79 of this thread. Please pay special attention to posts 71 & 79 / and follow the advice offered.

- By not dealing with this 52uf cap question , I believe any meaningful upgrade of your network ,,, "is still on hold " .

- & Yes, By all means, build some DC-biased networks according to the latest network info, as laid out by Giskard .

- I would also suggest building new networks into external boxes so that micro-vibrations can be more effectively dealt with .

- regarding Solens' "Fast-Caps" & your latest picture of "pulses". Actual, measurable, capacitor speed is never going to make those pulses merge into one. The physical offsets/distances between the voicecoils will always dominate a "pulse picture" no matter which capacitors are used in a circuit.


:cheers:

B&KMan
05-15-2005, 12:11 PM
Hi Jean

- About the middle of last month ( Apr. ) Guido & Giskard revealed that the audio signal on the way to the horn & tweeter network passed through the 52uf midrange capacitor. Did you explore these statements to find out if they applied to your network or not ? ( to do so, simply unsolder one 52uf cap and take note of what components won't reproduce any sound, ie ; what "turns off" . )



The 52Uf is in serial of med and parralle of high in according of my physical 3143... (It is error in schema or it is error on fabric build network .. but 2 network is build same...

(I'm not 100% shure: i'm not unsolder 52uf caps...)



Believe me ; the sound of an old 52uf NPE will completely dominate/mask any quality resolution that might be residing in any quality 2uf capacitor. It's a simple matter of ratios .

Of course this my actual set-up is not very not ideal for explain the real signature of solen caps and many other old parts is more coloration domination...

I would also suggest building new networks into external boxes so that micro-vibrations can be more effectievly dealt with .

My all works now is in regards of this way...



regarding Solens' "Fast-Caps" & your latest picture of "pulses". Actual, measurable, capacitor speed is never going to make those 4 pulses merge into one. The physical offsets/distances between the voicecoils will always dominate a "pulse picture" no matter which capacitors are used in a circuit.

My feeling is the more fast caps , more easy this 4 pulses merge into one...

If you have a " slow caps" the error is less relevant. Of course the time response is not change but less clearly merge on slow caps than fast caps...

Maybe the "metal sound" is come because the fast caps expose more problem time delay... the phase integration error is more exposed and finnaly sound better (fast) and worse (bad blend)... Just is my little point at this time....

in general if you have a physical problem time integration and you put a parts more accurate you have better chance to ear more clearly the problem... this is I'm realize in this experience...

:D...


p.s. I'M not ready actually to start project of build new complete network: 2 or 3 questions is floating...

One: time delay alignment in passive crossover...

I put this problem in this forum and the question is no resolving... Actually I look the Patented U.S. site and found a couple solution exposed in this point... But it is difficult for me: language and elecetronic specialisation is 2 walls adds...

My documentation is expose clearly the phase problem and integration of 2 driver ... The .12 mS or 120 uS is phenomenon perceivable for problem integration phase... Actually I have 650 uS time delay !!! So it is clear, big problem in there...

YUP!! Multi-amp and active crossover is really better an this aspect... !!!

Thanks again EARL for you time in this question...


Jean.

Earl K
05-15-2005, 01:07 PM
Hi Jean


p.s. I'M not ready actually to start project of build new complete network: 2 or 3 questions is floating...

One: time delay alignment in passive crossover...

- I wouldn't let this topic of Time-Alignment ™ hold you up too much. I can time-align my active setup / & while it's nice / I don't feel its as important as a proper-sounding crossover network or amplifier or preamp or EQ or ,,,,,


I put this problem in this forum and the question is no resolving...
- I may be wrong , but I don't think there's anyone frequenting this forum who is able to execute a practical implementation of passive time-alignment "allpass" circuitry. I know I can't . And FWIW, with non-coincidental drivers, one can only achieve alignment in a very constrained plane . This really limits the usefulness of the technique .


Actually I look the Patented U.S. site and found a couple solution exposed in this point... But it is difficult for me: language and elecetronic specialisation is 2 walls adds...

- Even with full command of the language the technical paper is written in and a modicum of passive circuitry knowledge / the theory is always quite daunting .



My documentation is expose clearly the phase problem and integration of 2 driver ... The .12 mS or 120 uS is phenomenon perceivable for problem integration phase... Actually I have 650 uS time delay !!! So it is clear, big problem in there...

- There are some members here with 4343/4/5 based systems who have good to great ears. They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areas :blink:

:cheers:

Robh3606
05-15-2005, 01:59 PM
"They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areas http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif "

Hello Earl

I couldn't have said it better. I have my 4344 clones in a second system that I don't use everyday. I have not had it turned on for a couple of weeks and just fired it up. Needless to say the 4344's are stunning! They have a clarity and sense of dynamics and ease that few can match. Everytime I don't use them for a while and fire them up it's always the same reaction. They do so much so well that any warts they have are just not worth fretting over and I like to just sit back and enjoy them for what they are. I look forward to seeing what Ian has up his sleeve but the bottom line is the design is so good that any improvement will be incremental and without that surperb driver set audible improvements would not be possible. I think many times we loose site of just how good our drivers are and without them none of these tweeks would be worth a damn.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-15-2005, 04:39 PM
Correct Robert....but you have top shelf capacitors in those 4344's.

You can talk the leg of a chair about this and that but they are what they are. I am amazed just many people have hung onto this model all these years.

I would be inclined to agree on the theory of the 4343, but as diy Guru's we can afford to go the extra mile on the execution with issues like vibration, capacitors, terminations (& fixed resistance pads after adjustment) and wire and not to mention driver and dias upgrades that were not even realised as a potential thread to audio quality when the 4343 was made (mid 70's).

About the 52uf capacitors I have sent and email to a higher level for qualification. From both the technical and historical viewpoint we really need to have this correctly documented on the Forums.

Apparently the 52 uF capacitor was used as protection if the system were to be switched to Bi-Amp as amplifiers from that day made a turn-on transient that could damage the compression driver diaphragms. In more recent times amps are well enough behaved that that part is no longer necessary.

Ian

B&KMan
05-15-2005, 07:20 PM
I couldn't have said it better.
Rob:)

Well, Each man go in way who is try to found the paradise...

Actually I walk in limbo and time is stopped at:


http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=pall&s1='4421949'.WKU.&OS=PN/4421949&RS=PN/4421949


:D

Jean.

B&KMan
05-16-2005, 07:35 PM
Hi Jean
- There are some members here with 4343/4/5 based systems who have good to great ears. They aren't letting these pesky driver integraton questions/problems prevent them from "maxxing-out the enjoyment factor" that they feel their 434x based systems can deliver. ie ; they've focussed their "improvement" efforts into other areas :blink:

:cheers:


Hey, I'm feel little joking tonight....

Please try to rewrite this after look your post 102 where you buildt esoteric set-up caps... :D

try to feel me little fuzzy man ...

My hypothesis is your create a multiple path but in this you confuse any signature but you create in same time big pipe who the signal is no compressed... I looks 12 caps (2 little and 10 standart lead size wire) spagetti torso... do you shure it is not a create hazard concact ???)

In according in my previous posts My feeling is the size of path (lead ize wire in AWG) affect signal....

So I works actually to integrate this concet to signature caps for created just the less network possible...

OK OK OK ... I just read this cheap reply for explain each man is choice where is fix attention...

A+ And I promise I send pict of schema (maybe this week...)

: cheers:


Jean.

Earl K
05-17-2005, 05:37 PM
Hey, I'm feel little joking tonight.... :blink:

Me Too :nanana:

( I'm into a very heavy work schedule that prevents me from any back & forth banter but ) ;

I "can invent" some merit for the multipath UHF approach, especially when one considers the dedicated usage of the CD player as the playback mechanism.

Heck , the reconstruction filters in these players start with a painfully small sampled portion of the original analog wave form . What is finally spit out is just the DACs' "best-guess interpretation" of where it "thinks" the UHF waveform was likely headed.

So, who am I to complain about a group of capacitors that also invent their own reconstructed UHF waveform ? :bs: :eek:

:cheers:

B&KMan
05-17-2005, 06:49 PM
:blink: So, who am I to complain about a group of capacitors that also invent their own reconstructed UHF waveform
:cheers:


You joke is bust my caps !!! :D



OK seriously,

For you and all,

I analyse the circuit of 3145 and version DC charge coupled modified by big courtesy of Mr Giskard. After tons of questions, Giskards is explain the DC charge is cancelled the time loading caps responsable of big part of the " signature caps." So it is not necessary to put
4 x 20 uF + bypass for create prime transient... the Dc charge is preload the caps... No time delay , no loose impulse and transient...

If I have good comprehension of the phenomenon..... :blink:

Well, After this, the time of reaction transition is really more small but is it sufficiently small for produre perfect transient response ??

1---- The 160 Uf on DC charge is more fast than 4 x 20uF + bypass caps...

(this is create maybe sufficiently a couple of time faster (in uS) to blind the problem time delay... my reading material expose clearly, more fast caps and low Inductance coil resistance, more fast response and minimise the time delay in inter-drivers... (if I save a couple of .10 Ms = Reallllllly Happy succes )

Anyway each 0.10 Ms save is a improvement...



2---- If the signature is again present, normally the type of caps is detectable on listen program.... Wright ???

3---- So the great question, In DC biais, the response circuit it is sufficiently fast and transparent for ocult the signature of caps... Or The difference is, on big part, cancelled put the nature of caps is no completely blind ....

------it is a improvement to I put silver caps or other very-high technologie : auri-caps, Dynamite, jensen, Back-Gate and
AudioNote Caps on Dc-biais ???

And finnally, the addition of multiple caps in serie and parrallle with bypass on on circuit based on DC charge it is add instability and decrease the iadvantage to buidt fast high value caps via Dc charge biais ???


Thanks again for your time ....


Jean....

4313B
05-18-2005, 08:31 AM
Apparently the 52 uF capacitor was used as protection if the system were to be switched to Bi-Amp as amplifiers from that day made a turn-on transient that could damage the compression driver diaphragms. In more recent times amps are well enough behaved that that part is no longer necessary. It has to stay as part of the bandpass for the 2121 when run in full passive mode though.

B&KMan
05-18-2005, 09:02 AM
It has to stay as part of the bandpass for the 2121 when run in full passive mode.


WOW !!! pict is a 1000 words ....

:applaud: GREAT JOBS Giskard !!! :applaud:


Finnally the 52 uF is modified the transition of med to HF ...

I'M not tottally shure but my crossover is same as exemple 1 :
the 52 uF is only for med


-------- but the 4Uf of HF is control the UHF too ------ :blink:

the line in of UHF is in connected after 4uF...

Because your set-up is already, it is big jobs for you to expose simulation of this situation ????

Manys thanks...

btw what is your sofware simulation...???


jean.

4313B
05-18-2005, 09:15 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. Show me on this schematic:

B&KMan
05-18-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. Show me on this schematic:

(Ah... the second language restriction ...) :o:
in according on schematic 3143, I mesure and retrace the signal path and my first conclusion is the 4mF of HF is work for UHF too...
(see pict) it is possible ???

4313B
05-18-2005, 10:06 AM
Ok, first off. I like the chalk board snap dude. :yes: Let's all get one!

There should be a 1.0 mH choke to ground between your 4 uF and 13.5 uF.

B&KMan
05-18-2005, 10:56 PM
Ok, first off. I like the chalk board snap dude. :yes: Let's all get one!
There should be a 1.0 mH choke to ground between your 4 uF and 13.5 uF.

Well, Your are the king (again and again)....

My confusion is come of the choke reaction...

(...)

B&KMan
05-19-2005, 12:36 AM
Hi Jean
- One question ; so far ( it's been a couple of weeks ) , how do you like those Solen Film & Foil caps that you installed into the Horn & Tweeter circuit of the 4343 network ?
<> Earl :cheers:

----------------------- BINGO ----------------------

:rockon1: :dj-party: :rockon1:


:band:


THE RODAGE IS DONE

ouf !!! what a stress for my ear...

In same story at each time rodage... 5-6 week later in one moment Boum the sound is drop and all harmonisation on each driver is fluid..

WOW the solen caps is definitively a big upgrade... I'M solder caps with 4% silver
and the level of finest is unbeliveble .... the noise floor is more down and the details is extremely articulate with really finest detais but not signature detect... the metal sound is completely out, in classical, chamber , wood instrument, voice, rock, jass, the sound reveal the nature of instrument and the finest of player, YOYOMA is just more faboulus....


I really exicting by next improvemnt to change completely entire crossover...

I hope this feeback is relevant for you.... do not hesitate to ask for more details...


Thaks everybody for give all infos


Jean.

4313B
05-19-2005, 02:23 AM
:cheers:

B&KMan
05-20-2005, 07:58 AM
:cheers:


HEY HEY Mr. Giskard, (and all)

I continue my analysing of your schematic 3145 DC charge of your courtesy build and expose in this forum...

I have a few questions (again :o: _ )

---1----

I feeling good improvement possible design by put a bypass with SM 0022 or sm 0010 ( Solen ) Caps for PB big value caps...

--It is important to put polystyrene caps or film and foil is superior ??? :hmm:

(I read many replys on manys thread who caps related (especially in 4344 MK2) and the best of the best is appear in DC + Bypass right ??... :hmm:


---2---

I remark nothing Zobel correction impedance appear in this schema...

It is better upgrade to put zobel circuit in each driver for maintain accuracy response in regards of impedence?? :hmm:

(My feeling is the recent technology is include zobel...)

Please, What your feeling of this point ???

------

Thanks at all...

Jean.

4313B
05-20-2005, 08:34 AM
1. Metallized poly main caps could very well benefit from film & foil poly bypass caps but you'd have to check that for yourself. None of these damn things are created equal. Some of the metallized polys are actually better than some of the film & foil polys. Basically you have to find a combination that works for you. I'd start with biased Solens as that is what JBL is currently raving about. It doesn't mean they're the best or anything like that, it just means that they've been implemented and have "passed the test".

2. Adding conjugates or Zobels to 30 year old filter designs has the potential to do more harm than good. The best way to make your decision though is to add whatever you want and note the results. You might want to just model all the drivers and start with a new filter design using modern software such as Leap Crossover Shop. I'm a bit surprised no one here has done that yet.

B&KMan
05-20-2005, 12:28 PM
I'm a bit surprised no one here has done that yet.

Thanks again for good reply...

well In my concern, actually I build my teeth on this domain and I feelind your work on Pspice software...

In time I'm progress in deep wood of world of crossover , I realize the level of difficulty, integration design and the different path choose by cie and particular home specialise...

---I understand in this way the big importance of DC circuit.
---the nature of caps and the bypass...
--- I realize the good circuit with stantard good electronics parts kill esoteric part in "poor" design circuit.).

--- I'm understand the interest of cie is produce same quality for cheapest price and rarely the project is without money object... (this is one of the beauty of JBL project :D )

Well, I realize the rebuild procject crossover is very more big effrt and time conssumming and I'm not shure the peoples is have luxury and pleasure to run

in this way... For my part , it is integrate on my philosophy, great work great result...

I try to pay for but I realize the level of indecence of incompetence around me so I go in the end to do it yourselft...


Anyway thanks Giskard for all..

Jean...

B&KMan
05-21-2005, 12:50 PM
1. Basically you have to find a combination that works for you. I'd start with biased Solens as that is what JBL is currently raving about.

HEY HEY HEY GREAT MEMBERS...

I'M works hard to integrate all hints and tricks of this great communauty and I submit for " evaluation " my first version of LF of the new design NetWork...

I hope I'M not too out-of-field...

I'M integrate notion of:

---1 max low dcr of inductance
---2 DC Charge
---3 Bypass
---4 Blend type caps.
---5 1% undervalue caps (in general) is corrected by cascade low value...

Anybody comments are welcome ???


Jean.
:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Jean,

Your points seen valid but have you thought about trying to make your own capacitors?

Not joking. If size and space limitations are not an issue it could be done.

On another point have you experiemented to determine effects of capacitor self inductance. (Parrelleling capacitors should reduce inductance).

Also, I have a measurement design somewhere for esr, DA and other key capacitors parameters. If you like I could send to you.

Ian

Robh3606
05-21-2005, 03:42 PM
Why not biamp them???

Rob:)

Tom Loizeaux
05-21-2005, 05:06 PM
Why not biamp them???

Rob:)

I have to ask the same question!
Though I did add bypass caps to the big caps in my 4343s, I only really care about the caps in circuit when I use these in the bi-amp mode. (Why listen to these great speakers in full passive mode?) I want to get the best sounding result by putting my efforts (and money) in to the ideal caps on the 2121s, 2420s, and 2405s. This is why I'm waiting to hear Ian's conclusions on the Auricaps, etc.!

Tom

B&KMan
05-21-2005, 05:31 PM
Jean,

Your points seen valid but have you thought about trying to make your own capacitors?

Not joking. If size and space limitations are not an issue it could be done.

Ian

The space s no problem I buid the network outside of speaker and I have a size of the back panel speaker for limitation space :D





On another point have you experiemented to determine effects of capacitor self inductance. (Parrelleling capacitors should reduce inductance).

Also, I have a measurement design somewhere for esr, DA and other key capacitors parameters. If you like I could send to you.

Ian

:eek: --------- :shock: ------------ :jawdrop:

WELL, that is the point whre my theory and experience is smach the wall...

I appreciate very strongly to give measurement design somewhere for esr, DA and other key capacitors parameters.

Thanks IAN.


Jean.

B&KMan
05-21-2005, 05:45 PM
I have to ask the same question!
Though I did add bypass caps to the big caps in my 4343s, I only really care about the caps in circuit when I use these in the bi-amp mode. (Why listen to these great speakers in full passive mode?) I want to get the best sounding result by putting my efforts (and money) in to the ideal caps on the 2121s, 2420s, and 2405s. This is why I'm waiting to hear Ian's conclusions on the Auricaps, etc.!

Tom



I'm understand your point of view and I recognize the superiority of the bi-amp but in according of info of JBL pro site in this question... No ideal world...

For my part it not realizable actually to add amp and some level quality of electronics... And if I go in the futur in active amp, be shure I cancelled totally the network... to very high level digital crossover to control all aspect in time and fequency domain with out phase shift or time delay integration...



So, actually I prefer to go in this passive way and my effort is go in this way...

So thanks for verifying my way and any point of view in this way is welcome...

: cheers :

Jean.

4313B
05-22-2005, 07:15 AM
Change the 2x 7.5 ohm 10 W to 2x MO1000J15R 15 ohm 10 W. Everything else looks good. The ultra-low DCR of your main coil should be good for ~ 1 dB increased output from the 2235H/2245H. I see you've also spec'd the Solen film & foils as bypass caps. Should be interesting.

B&KMan
05-22-2005, 09:46 AM
Change the 2x 7.5 ohm 10 W to 2x MO1000J15R 15 ohm 10 W. Everything else looks good. The ultra-low DCR of your main coil should be good for ~ 1 dB increased output from the 2235H/2245H. I see you've also spec'd the Solen film & foils as bypass caps. Should be interesting.

Thanks for feedback Giskard,

--- WOW more 1 db ...

---2 resistance in parralle is drop value by factor of 2 ???
(hey I'm realy dummy in electronics)

---For the film and foil Solen: My actual little modification of 3143 (pics sended in this thread) is the film and foil Solen... all the way :D

sm100 = 1uF
se150 = 1,5uF
se200 (2x) =4uF

This little modification of change caps of hf and uhf is cost close $ 200 (tax and solder) :blink:

My last (Shakespeare) hesitation for this circuit : do i have to add the zobel circuit for stabilizing impedence or not ????

:)

4313B
05-22-2005, 10:15 AM
The original zobel specs a 7.5 ohm value. If you are going to double up for power handling purposes use paralleled 15 ohm resistors. (R1^-1 + R2^-1)^-1

"do i have to add the zobel circuit for stabilizing impedence or not ????"

I'd stick to the schematic.

"This little modification of change caps of hf and uhf is cost close $ 200 (tax and solder) http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif"

I don't know if it's worth the hassle. I'd just build basic biased filters without bypass caps and listen to that first. Adding bypass caps is cake if you decide to do it later.

B&KMan
05-22-2005, 12:38 PM
The original zobel specs a 7.5 ohm value. If you are going to double up for power handling purposes use paralleled 15 ohm resistors. (R1^-1 + R2^-1)^-1


Again you proof your are a Master... :D



I'd stick to the schematic.

:blink:


Well, I'm not shure to interpretation... the zobel circuit integrate in LF is for control the peak impedance or for stabilizing the circuit after peak or driver...

I suspect it is for peak impedance driver because the driver is cut frequency soon and probably not disturb the impedance ...

So the zobel localisation is the 20 uF caps in serial with the resistor

I have a good comprehension of the circuit ??

Jean.

B&KMan
05-23-2005, 11:30 PM
OK DOKAY,

another white night to work hard of build a improvement and comprehension of circuit..

Another time I found a 2 stupids neophyt questions

In Hf circuit is double value caps of 9.1and 15 uF but what is original value of 3145. (this information is relevant because I build a multivalue and In this, I shure to build more close original value.)

-----

In the UHF the same problem appear the value of caps look too big :
maybe is result of the choke ???

-----
I have read 1.5 uF in 3145 and you run more higher value than 3.0 uF ???
-----

If anybody have again correction or comment is welcome...

B&KMan
05-25-2005, 10:31 PM
Hi again folks group....

For the guy is not too tired of the $$%#?&*&(&%$?$?%$? question caps and modification and DC biais, I have pass today , 3 hours in master Mr Solen (Denis ) in person and I have a high level grade discussion with my DC biais , cascade caps, type of caps, etc. in regards of any argumentations points keeped in this great forum...

The point relevant of this strong discussion is:

1--- The nature of caps is determine the nature of problem....

the electrolytic cap have a rise time more than 3 v / second !!!
for comparison; the polyster is 1 v/s the polypropylene metal is 100 faster .01/s
and film and foil is 10 more faster: ,0001 /s.

No surprise the dc charge is preload the electrolytic caps and minimise the memory of caps!!! It is asolutely non accurate nature of this type of caps who create obligation to build new design (dc biais) for update element... But the dielectric value is not changed and the quality of caps is not equal to better "fast caps"...

-------------

2--- the DC charge biais is appeat is non complete cncept because for the ideal situation , normally your charge DC positif a one pair of caps and you put a other pair of caps in parrallele with negative Dc charge. In this, the AC power is start at 0... But it is relatively absurd to apply this circuit with good fast caps because non signfiant improvement appear...

The reason of this circuit is introduce is according directly by the fact of the cheap caps in DC charge is less cost of the high level caps... (Solen point of view).


3--- For the question of the multibrin in caps lead...Solen is produce this type of caps but cut the production rrapidly because the first problem of this type of lead is infiltration of air inside of caps.... So in 2 years the caps loose by corrotion a big part of accuracy....

4----
each soldering is consider with a problem... so put 3 caps in same point contact in parralelle is realy better than 3 independant soldering in parrallele.... the soldering cancel the interest of finest caps cascade...

5----

For cascade question, the bypass is work in very high level frequency resonnance and not really important in regard of nature of caps...

for exemple 3 types caps and 3 types values insert in circuit 6 types of resonnance and reactance... yes! you hide a signature but you hide signal too !!!..

but f you put low value film and foil , your time frequency in regards in time domain is appear probably better because you insert the highest caps reactance available...


ex: in high section is better to put 4 value film and foil in this regard than dc charge with biais and bypass...


:banghead: I'M COMPLETEY DESTROYED !!!! :banghead:


one side great feeback in go in a specific way...

Other side one specilist who provide 2000 OIM where prestigious Avalon, krell, totem, Wilson, etc, etc, etc,

final touch !!! Solen recognize any insert parts is altering circuit but it is not shure in the good way !!!....

$%$&?%&&*? of course i very happy of my solutionbecause ton of caps in there... 600$ for each speaker...

More ??? :barf:

The distance where you soldering lead caps altering the value and the master problem of crossover, is first the cable !!!

(if you consider you runed with good solen caps.)


SHIT!!! I have feeling is flashback in apocalypse now film...


I hope you appreciate this interview report...:applaud:

if anybody have other documented point of view, I'm shure the forum member and me is strongly appreciated...

B&KMan
05-25-2005, 10:34 PM
Hi again folks group....

For the guy is not too tired of the $$%#?&*&(&%$?$?%$? question caps and modification and DC biais, I have pass today , 3 hours in master Mr Solen (Denis ) in person and I have a high level grade discussion with my DC biais , cascade caps, type of caps, etc. in regards of any argumentations points keeped in this great forum...

The point relevant of this strong discussion is:

1--- The nature of caps is determine the nature of problem....

the electrolytic cap have a rise time more than 3 v / second !!!
for comparison; the polyster is 1 v/s the polypropylene metal is 100 faster .01/s
and film and foil is 10 more faster: ,0001 /s.

No surprise the dc charge is preload the electrolytic caps and minimise the memory of caps!!! It is asolutely non accurate nature of this type of caps who create obligation to build new design (dc biais) for update element... But the dielectric value is not changed and the quality of caps is not equal to better "fast caps"...

-------------

2--- the DC charge biais is appeat is non complete cncept because for the ideal situation , normally your charge DC positif a one pair of caps and you put a other pair of caps in parrallele with negative Dc charge. In this, the AC power is start at 0... But it is relatively absurd to apply this circuit with good fast caps because non signfiant improvement appear...

The reason of this circuit is introduce is according directly by the fact of the cheap caps in DC charge is less cost of the high level caps... (Solen point of view).


3--- For the question of the multibrin in caps lead...Solen is produce this type of caps but cut the production rrapidly because the first problem of this type of lead is infiltration of air inside of caps.... So in 2 years the caps loose big part of accuracy by corrotion....

4----
each soldering is consider with a problem... so put 3 caps in same point contact in parralelle is realy better than 3 independant soldering in parrallele.... the soldering cancel the interest of finest caps cascade...

5----

For cascade question, the bypass is work in very high level frequency resonnance and not really important in regard of nature of caps...

for exemple 3 types caps and 3 types values insert in circuit 6 types of resonnance and reactance... yes! you hide a signature but you hide signal too !!!..

but f you put low value film and foil , your time frequency in regards in time domain is appear probably better because you insert the highest caps reactance available...


ex: in high section is better to put 4 value film and foil in this regard than dc charge with biais and bypass...


:banghead: I'M COMPLETEY DESTROYED !!!! :banghead:


one side great feeback in go in a specific way...

Other side one specilist who provide 2000 OIM where prestigious Avalon, krell, totem, Wilson, etc, etc, etc,

final touch !!! Solen recognize any insert parts is altering circuit but it is not shure in the good way !!!....

$%$&?%&&*? of course i very happy of my solutionbecause ton of caps in there... 600$ for each speaker...

More ??? :barf:

---- The distance where you soldering lead caps altering the value
---- the master problem of crossover, (if you consider you runed with good solen caps.) is the cable link!!!


SHIT!!! I have feeling is flashback in apocalypse now film...


I hope you appreciate this interview report...:applaud:

if anybody have other documented point of view, I'm shure the forum member and me is strongly appreciated...

Ian Mackenzie
05-25-2005, 11:08 PM
B&KMan..thanks for publishing your investigations..perhaps this will lead to less skeptics and snake oil discussions in the future on capacitors.

Scientific investigations lead to fact not fiction.


Hi again folks group....

For the guy is not too tired of the $$%#?&*&(&%$?$?%$? question caps and modification and DC biais, I have pass today , 3 hours in master Mr Solen (Denis ) in person and I have a high level grade discussion with my DC biais , cascade caps, type of caps, etc. in regards of any argumentations points keeped in this great forum...

The point relevant of this strong discussion is:

1--- The nature of caps is determine the nature of problem....

>>>>I have always thought that might be the case based on testing and empirical investigations, ie green caps (electrolytic versus mylar/polyester versus polyrpopolyene)

the electrolytic cap have a rise time more than 3 v / second !!!
for comparison; the polyster is 1 v/s the polypropylene metal is 100 faster .01/s
and film and foil is 10 more faster: ,0001 /s.

No surprise the dc charge is preload the electrolytic caps and minimise the memory of caps!!! It is asolutely non accurate nature of this type of caps who create obligation to build new design (dc biais) for update element... But the dielectric value is not changed and the quality of caps is not equal to better "fast caps"...

In a paper by Marsh there is a description of biasing of caps in cvarious locations of a typical amplifier and the tweeks that are applicable, electro reverse polarity with bias voltage, bypass with film etc. Typically biasing yields the most improvement with poorer dielectric

-------------

2--- the DC charge biais is appeat is non complete cncept because for the ideal situation , normally your charge DC positif a one pair of caps and you put a other pair of caps in parrallele with negative Dc charge. In this, the AC power is start at 0... But it is relatively absurd to apply this circuit with good fast caps because non signfiant improvement appear...

Perhaps you can conduct and experiment on the above.

The reason of this circuit is introduce is according directly by the fact of the cheap caps in DC charge is less cost of the high level caps... (Solen point of view).

That would appear to be a good economic outcome.


3--- For the question of the multibrin in caps lead...Solen is produce this type of caps but cut the production rrapidly because the first problem of this type of lead is infiltration of air inside of caps.... So in 2 years the caps loose big part of accuracy by corrotion....

4----
each soldering is consider with a problem... so put 3 caps in same point contact in parralelle is realy better than 3 independant soldering in parrallele.... the soldering cancel the interest of finest caps cascade...

5----

For cascade question, the bypass is work in very high level frequency resonnance and not really important in regard of nature of caps...

for exemple 3 types caps and 3 types values insert in circuit 6 types of resonnance and reactance... yes! you hide a signature but you hide signal too !!!..

A solution of economic rationalism and diy morphs but not the best hifi solution.

but f you put low value film and foil , your time frequency in regards in time domain is appear probably better because you insert the highest caps reactance available...

Yes, with an obvious example...typically a large time constant like 220uf and 10k will have a reactance at a very low frequency..the key then is to bypass with a low value film capactor (0.047 or less) to counteract the performance that trails at higher frequenencies.



ex: in high section is better to put 4 value film and foil in this regard than dc charge with biais and bypass...


:banghead: I'M COMPLETEY DESTROYED !!!! :banghead:


one side great feeback in go in a specific way...

Other side one specilist who provide 2000 OIM where prestigious Avalon, krell, totem, Wilson, etc, etc, etc,

final touch !!! Solen recognize any insert parts is altering circuit but it is not shure in the good way !!!....

Most capacitor companies claim to be OEM to major speaker companies.

$%$&?%&&*? of course i very happy of my solutionbecause ton of caps in there... 600$ for each speaker...

More ??? :barf:

---- The distance where you soldering lead caps altering the value
---- the master problem of crossover, (if you consider you runed with good solen caps.) is the cable link!!!


SHIT!!! I have feeling is flashback in apocalypse now film...


I hope you appreciate this interview report...:applaud:

if anybody have other documented point of view, I'm shure the forum member and me is strongly appreciated...

Ian Mackenzie
05-26-2005, 05:21 AM
Sounds to me like you need to forget about all this crap and go active. :p

Yeah maybe but for most with what and why do it with drivers 20 years out of date?

Ian

B&KMan
05-26-2005, 06:41 AM
Sounds to me like you need to forget about all this crap and go active. :p

HEY HEY HEY Giskard...

I work hard actually to create a big hole on my gardin and put all my system!!!! :biting:

I work to try to perform a great job improvement and I put a question in basement of certains principes... So I have feeling it is realy interesting for communauty... Maybe you are tired of my poor english or circle question but my way is upgrade max quality crossver as possible...

I'M surprising the question of double dc charge pos and neg is not intrigue your mind ?? or you have already response...

You are the king of modification design and you have not point of view of this???

put down other way and just consider the theoric question...
(After, each decide if is the way is satisfy)...


do you have perform test where new passive crossover build with and with out DC charge. ??? The improvement it is signifiant ???

Jean.

Zilch
05-26-2005, 11:30 AM
do you have perform test where new passive crossover build with and with out DC charge. ??? The improvement it is signifiant ??? Y'know, Jean, at a certain point you just have to invest $20 in some capacitors, resistors, and a battery and try it yourself. Do it with your UHF section, perhaps, and apply your 5n instrumentation to the task of ascertaining whether or not there is a measurable difference. Then, you can tell US if it's hokus-pokus or not by your scientific deteminations.

Oh, and don't forget to LISTEN for differences, as well.... :p

[Have you made and tested any Cat 5e tweeter cables yet? It's a 10-minute task.]

B&KMan
05-26-2005, 12:05 PM
Y'know, Jean, at a certain point you just have to invest $20 in some capacitors, resistors, and a battery and try it yourself. Do it with your UHF section, perhaps, and apply your 5n instrumentation to the task of ascertaining whether or not there is a measurable difference. Then, you can tell US if it's hokus-pokus or not by your scientific deteminations.


MMMMMMM...

This is probably best idea... :applaud:

Thanks Zilch !!


but the uhf is no polypropylene metal caps just film and foil...

But I try a test... :blink:

actually I check all reply in dc charge on this forum.... internal sea !!!
I just finish to read tecnical paper of the s 5500 who the concept is explain...

for cable I have a special contact who is possible to me to buy a aerospacial ac cable...

6N copper with silver plated with ultra ptfe telflon sleeve... cable test pass mil, nasa and other instrumental spec.. mmmmmm ....

but I keep in my mind the test of rj45 cable for acoustic :)

for inductor solen litz cable is 4n copper (pretty good coil) and in special order I have precisely mesured coil, and 2 dip enamel bath for maximum stiffness and less variation of vibration...

Ian Mackenzie
05-28-2005, 03:23 PM
About the Auricaps I heard back from Audience.

"The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.

The biasing and bypassing ideas were good for earlier, less refined capacitors. The Auricaps do not require bypassing or biasing because their performance is much better than previous capacitors."


Ian

B&KMan
05-28-2005, 06:49 PM
The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.

The biasing and bypassing ideas were good for earlier, less refined capacitors. The Auricaps do not require bypassing or biasing because their performance is much better than previous capacitors.


Hi Ian, and thanks for report...


Finnally It is a same speech of Solen....

Modern fast caps is not necesity to bypass, cascade or biais circuit....

in refer in my previous feeback on my talk of Solen , the speed response is problem for cheap or bad type of caps...

BUt ....

Solen recognize the film and foil is better than metal polypropylene... 10 faster... more linear response...

It is shure of one point if you multiple point solder you drop much quality than cascade circuit is added...


In my side I re-read entire post in regards of caps , biais, and cascade in this technical forum...

In regards of Giskard is write on topic Capacitor, Greg Timber is consider the top is film and foil mounted in Biais circuit. Because it is impossible to build complete circuit in film and foil due to low value disponible, I'm appear the best is cascade with film and foil mounted in biais Dc charge...
But the question is what is ratio ??? 10% film and foil, 1 % single of combination cascade ???

rek50
05-29-2005, 04:35 AM
"It is shure of one point if you multiple point solder you drop much quality than cascade circuit is added..." Yes, Maybe, BUT, look inside most any vintage amp/receiver and what do you see if not MANY solder points. Do they "Suffer" for this many solder points? I don't think it's the number of solder points, but rather the QUALITY of each solder connection that causes the overall "Taste". Like a good recipe, "The proof is in the Pudding". Does it taste/sound "Good" to you or not? One way to find out, pop the cork, raise the glass, and see if you taste "Theory" or what's on your tongue. For me, blend/cascade/bypass seems to be worth a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Charge/coupled seems reasonable as well. Hocus Pocus Dominocus, when the rubber meets the road, you'll know if you're moving forward. If you can't tell, it doesn't matter anyway.

B&KMan
05-29-2005, 07:37 AM
when the rubber meets the road, you'll know if you're moving forward.

Hi Rek50,

Well, defenitively right but pratical is not exclude theorie...

The beauty of science is, if in theory the hypothesis is not good , you chance to result high quality = 0 %... but the inverse is not automatic

The theory and the instrumental approach is to cut infinity possibility of build circuit to few option where in theory is appear the best !!!
I work hard to find best feeack of good theorical recipe without re-invente the wheel... in this maybe I listen a superb result soon...

Of course the pratical is the final test and instrumentation and theory is not better than pratice but is the result instrumentation or theory is not good it just impossible to realize a good pratice result...
As you words, the science of rubber is applied before touch the road or you go in field... :D

it is clear all soldering affect sound more solder, more destroyed original signal... Well best design is create efficience circuit with minimize part and solder.... Of course, in this exemple, the zobel circuit is added after couple of years because the correction is more than the negative effect on parts and solder insert on circuit... That is the delicate question here...

So if you have option to put 4 caps with TT of 8 solder contact or 4 caps with TT of 2 solder contact work hard to go at 2 contact, the result is better... " the rubber is more stick on the road on this.... :)

Thanks for cue...


Jean.

Earl K
05-29-2005, 08:46 AM
Hi Jean


But the question is what is ratio ??? 10% film and foil, 1 % single of combination cascade ???
- Here's a link to some opinion on "cascading" capacitors (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Bypassing.html).
- This seller ( North Creek Music Systems (http://www.northcreekmusic.com/index.html) ) does talk about the "cascade ratios" that work well with their line of capacitors.

- FWIW & IME : Cascading and mixing different dielectric types is a lot like cooking / ie ; eventually one needs to get past the suggested stock recipes ( ratios ) / if one wants to please their own palate .

- OTOH : Recipes are a great starting point . ( helping to create enough confidence to rollup the shirt-sleeves & turn-on the stove ;) )

:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
05-29-2005, 10:56 AM
About the Auricaps I heard back from Audience.

"The Auricaps are not bypassed and for the best results we do not recommend bypassing. I would recommend substituting with the same value single Auricaps only.


Ian

Well like all these things there must be different schools of thought..:hmm:

Although you would be stuffed if the actual value you were after was not available! Fortunately in their 200 volt range this is not really an issue.

B&KMan
05-29-2005, 06:50 PM
Well like all these things there must be different schools of thought..:hmm:


Hey Ian thanks again,

Well, I'm not really happy by auricap. Mysterious, esoteric, and particulary non technical or spec information... If is too special , why do not explain what is what...

I read auricap site www and is consider a couple type of caps... of course if you keep a type auricaps especcially build for bypass; it is bizarre to bypass this. but for big value auricaps suggest certain type for bypass...

or I'm not good comprehension.... :blink:

Ian Mackenzie
05-29-2005, 11:14 PM
Hey Ian thanks again,

Well, I'm not really happy by auricap. Mysterious, esoteric, and particulary non technical or spec information... If is too special , why do not explain what is what...

I read auricap site www and is consider a couple type of caps... of course if you keep a type auricaps especcially build for bypass; it is bizarre to bypass this. but for big value auricaps suggest certain type for bypass...

or I'm not good comprehension.... :blink:

Well if you spent 20 years perfecting a design would you give away the secrets..NO WAY BABY!

This applies to many technical products that find their way into consumer markets. More often a patent on the manufacture is used for protection but that is not always possible.

Ian

rek50
05-30-2005, 05:13 AM
"it is clear all soldering affect sound more solder, more destroyed original signal..." Well yes, Maybe, then again, there's solder EVERYWHERE. Recording Studio, Test Instruments, Amps/Receivers, Crossovers... I don't know if an "Original signal" can be defined. Science and theory is the best way to get "Close" to the desired result. If science were an absolute, we should have NO failures. But things fail everyday. Why? Poor design? Improper materials? Lack of understanding? My point is most everything is special in it's particular environement/use. To me, it's all compromise. What may sound/test good in one environment, does not mean it's absolute in all environments (Failures). Your/my amp/receiver may produce similiar results, but I think they have their own unique way, based on all the differences of all the components/solder points... Bottom line, use science/theory to come up with YOUR magic recipe to suit the combination of your taste/environment. Nothing is perfect, we try to get it close. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. How high is up? If everyone thinks the same, no one is thinking.

B&KMan
05-30-2005, 06:57 AM
This applies to many technical products that find their way into consumer markets. More often a patent on the manufacture is used for protection but that is not always possible.
Ian

I recognize your point... and I'm shure this caps is "special" but look the level of information...
Look information explain a "special" on other manufacture...

sprague, jensen, Blackgate, philips, motorola, Frako, and other, the information.... I participate a big (and at certain point sterile) debate of the tin marine wire... And I try to expose the complexity of this simple link...

Of course maybe is same of caps; and the rest of aspect of sound reproduction...

The question is : The majority is consider the question with prejudice, and without "sreen analyse"... in this situation no possible to good comprehension of the phenomenon, non nothing. just try and ah or euh or yurk !!!

Do you have feeling the cie ship satelite in space whit this argumentation ???

So, it is possible evaluate objectively any cable and any caps; check complete spec. rise time, dispersion, leakage, etc, so if a cie is not expose this aspect, in general, is smell not good...

the science is not sufficient for expose a state of art but is it necessary...
impossible to create good cable or caps with bad spec...

But I'm open mind and auricap have a reputation.

IAN, I read many reply of question of caps solen on thread capacitor... All guy is consider the caps with sound metal....

My experience is yes this caps is sound metal all the time before burning complete process, 5-6 weeks... Now I listen my 4343 with solen caps film and foil of high and uhf section and my speaker plugged with by copper-silver wired, and silver interconnect and caps is soldered with 4% silver solder... and the sound is not metal sound now... do you have try to push your burning time as this long period ??? maybe you have a couple of surprise...

I tested many high end electronics and the real nature is appear after 6 week,
many electronic or speaker is sound signature different before and after...
The difference of very high end cie is consider this effect and pre-rod material... with power and heat for accelerate.

Maybe it is interesting futur thread for crazy guy same me and you :D

I'm go buy my half hundred caps this week and my air coils heptaLitz is ready, (special treatement 3 X dip enanel for cancel any variation due to vibration... :applaud: and the guy is receive my special aerospace wire... so I'm prepare to build tis heretic Crossover...

Jean...

B&KMan
05-30-2005, 07:19 AM
Bottom line, use science/theory to come up with YOUR magic recipe to suit the combination of your taste/environment. Nothing is perfect, we try to get it close. One man's ceiling is another man's floor. How high is up? If everyone thinks the same, no one is thinking.


Hi Rek50,

Yes and no for me...

I trie to catch the flavour on the recording, not create a added personnal taste...

The problem of transparency is recreate any flavour of any artists with added taste... for me this is a real magic moment and if the artist is sound funtastic or dull , my system is expose with not add or remove, or remix...
If you go in this way, yes tuff life, the link chain is delicate at any link so big effort, money, and work, for proper result... many cie is work hard to create and re-create a cie signature... Boston acoustic is work with 50 ingeneer and couple of million of instrumental lab and is create any speakers small or big, radio or high mutli amp system, all have a boston sygnature and cie is expose this aspect with satisfaction... this is good way ?? for guy who appreciate this type of sound yes, but for other who search more tranparene, is not good...

Your point is really important because is touch the quest of all...

but the first question is : what is you quest, specific flavour, or no flavour ???
the second is: in this quest your taste it is change, your ear it is more educated or less educated...

YIAH baby... realy big problematic... ontological problems associated with epistemological problems... the difficulty to definise what is exactly problem is a problem... all is on relation so very difficult to seat good parameter for forward...

and because the problem is exponential critical by you foward , any subtil detail appear on your face with high end system, any subtil variation scrap the sound... :barf: ....

ex: my freind is go visit a sky-walker ranch ( reference studio Lucas for THX)

One of the theorical problem of the ingeneer is corrected the response frequency band with out equaliser because eQ scrap the phase... so the egeneer is modificade a big hose cable wire (mit) for create a closer correction as possible with B&W nautilus 801 (same as abbey road studio)...

I hope is expose my crazy quest... Of course many consider my to nuts :D

Jean.

Earl K
05-30-2005, 07:41 AM
Hi Jean

You make some good points .


My experience is yes this caps is sound metal all the time before burning complete process, 5-6 weeks... Now I listen my 4343 with solen caps film and foil of high and uhf section and my speaker plugged with by copper-silver wired, and silver interconnect and caps is soldered with 4% silver solder... and the sound is not metal sound now... do you have try to push your burning time as this long period ??? maybe you have a couple of surprise...

- I'm not aware of anyone here using the Film & Foil Solens that you are using / we've all pretty much stuck with the metallized Solens. I believe there's an element of "Apples & Oranges" in your suggested comparisons. ( I've had Solen MPP types since 1990 so I think the "train has left the station" for me to ever really like them ( even DC-Biased ) / though I do use them in some of my mongrel recipes )


tested many high end electronics and the real nature is appear after 6 week, many electronic or speaker is sound signature different before and after...
The difference of very high end cie is consider this effect and pre-rod material... with power and heat for accelerate.

- I agree, not many here give anything a 5 or 6 week "burn-in period". I know I don't & I probably should / though / I also think that DC Biasing accelerates the burn-in process somewhat .

- I know this last Christmas was a great example of some form of "Bias" breakin. I was gone for 2 1/2 weeks. 2 1/2 weeks previous to my departure I had executed some significant changes to my DC Blocking caps architecture. The system was "off" during my absence though the 9 volt battery remained active in the bias circuit. Upon my return and immediately into the first song I realized the system sounded completely different than the way I had left it .
The differences prompted a change ( a lowering ) of the crossover point chosen for the lowpass sections ( this part of my system uses an active crossover with tunable points ). The change was necessary since it seemed I had just gained about 1/2 an octave of lower midrange information coming out of my Altec 288 drivers. BTW ; the woofers crossover point hasn't been readjusted upward since then.

- It would be very useful to know how to accelerate the 6 week "burnin" procedure without having to listen to/endure "peaky sounding" caps. What do you suggest as a solution ? ( How much heat & power ? )

- Right now I'm starting a "new-cap" listening process ( since some surplus CCCP Metallized Paper in Oil / PIO caps have just arrived ) .


:cheers:

rek50
05-30-2005, 08:57 AM
"I trie to catch the flavour on the recording, not create a added personnal taste..." YES, I'm with you, But what defines the flavour on the recording? The original flavour is the sum of the equipment/engineering/mixing/EARS, of THAT environment. You/I may catch what we feel is the original flavour, but THAT is our perception, in our environment/equipment/time and life phase. Problems, what problems?? HA. If you split a frog hair enough times, it ceases to exist. I would also like to know of a "Bench" burn-in method. Those CCCP PIO caps caught my eye/brain too. A report may be in order. This is FUN :applaud: for me, where else could one discuss:blah: the Alchemy:blink: of sound?

Zilch
05-30-2005, 09:43 AM
The Alchemy:blink: of sound.SOLDER?

And here I thought amalgam was the source of all woe. :banghead:

Same kinda stuff, now that I think about it, I guess.... :p

Mr. Widget
05-30-2005, 09:46 AM
I knew there was a word for this stuff....:hmm:

Keep up the good work guys and get back to us when the formula for gold, or perhaps in this case silver is discovered.

Widget

Earl K
05-30-2005, 09:52 AM
I would also like to know of a "Bench" burn-in method.

- I would think that 10 to 20 volts of filtered Pink Noise, through the cap in question, loaded by an appropriately valued resistive dummy load / would do the job.


Those CCCP PIO caps caught my eye/brain too. A report may be in order.

- Well, their purchase is a cheap enough education . ;)
( though I've already had to re-engage my "all biased" stalwarts for violin & trumpet based CDs )

- I've only had them less than 24 hours. Non-baised ( at this time ) they don't have as generous a lower mid as I was hoping for ( this is somewhat a surprise and does manifest itself as a pinched character on the already referenced musical instruments ). Maybe "burn-in" will loosen the belt around the lower midrange ( though this doesn't usually happen in my experience / OTOH, I expect some of the topend resonances will get tamed ).

- Quite a nice top-end ( if a little bit "feathered" along with a higher-voiced "splash" when compared to KP types - about 1/2 an octave higher ). And yes, I am seeking out a bit more splash since I'm running a two-way ( using my 288s ) and I still prefer to forgoe using a dedicated UHF tweeter .

- I'll be curious about how they bias-up ( sometime later this week ). :D


the Alchemy of sound

- Yea, I like that analogy .

:cheers:

B&KMan
05-30-2005, 01:18 PM
- I would think that 10 to 20 volts of filtered Pink Noise, through the cap in question, loaded by an appropriately valued resistive dummy load / would do the job.

- Well, their purchase is a cheap enough education .

:cheers:

Thanks again Earl,

For my part I'm not found a secret to faster burn-in electronic... connection, soldering, all is delicate...

I put here a just little point of view of this enormous icerberg...

And. in regards of other comments, I suppose it is a stupid guys too.
:applaud:

http://www.fda.gov/ora/inspect_ref/itg/itg19.html

just little find on google on this question...

electronic+burn-in+time+and+test+procedure+

Jean.

:D

Mr. Widget
05-30-2005, 02:01 PM
I worked for a number of years in a reliability test lab in Silicon Valley. We would burn-in electronic components of all types ranging from simple diodes to microwave devices. Our clients were NASA, Lockheed, the US Navy, etc.

A typical burn-in procedure would be to operate the device at 100% of it's rating in a test chamber at +125°C for 168 hrs. (1 week)

Widget

Earl K
05-30-2005, 02:10 PM
:D

- Thanks for that link :deal: Jean .

- I especially liked ( noted ) the part about the MIL. spec. using a "DC-Biasing" to "stress-test" electronic parts during "burn-in" .

- Intriguing info that . ( :hmm: , Maybe I ought to increase the DC bias up to 27 volts + on all new caps / for this ( soon-to-be designed ) burn-in procedure .:eek: .

:cheers:

rek50
05-31-2005, 05:32 AM
Thanks for that link http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/readme.gif Jean , Thanks for the info Earl. I did see the PIO caps on the "bay", but I can't find them again:banghead: . I suspect we all have our favorite "Testing Music" to sample the "Flavour De Jour". Jean, have you ever tried "If I Could Only Remember My Name, by David Crosby 1971? IMO, if you have your network "Flavoured" just right, for this one, you HAVE it.

B&KMan
05-31-2005, 06:25 AM
A typical burn-in procedure would be to operate the device at 100% of it's rating in a test chamber at +125°C for 168 hrs. (1 week)
Widget

Thanks Mr Widget for this hint....

this is go in my read of many mil spec standart for test procedure...
I understand in manys tests, the tempeture is one of key for colapste time...

But a couple test burn-in is really shorter the life of parts...

But I'M not shure this type of test is corresponding to burn-in or rodage in audio orientation...



=========================


Earl,

The pink noise is special signal because it is really full frequency and really below amplitute than music (where many pure tone appear) but the power is same... (it is difficult to explain with my poor english)

The pink noise play less loud as same volume than music. so you have possibility to stress material with pink noise because more power at equal same playback plus the entire spectrum is appllied on parts...

But I'm not shure you run full or middle power the time burn-in is change...

Maybe the pseudo impulse train is better set-up to burn-in but... stress in transient is probably better than random noise or pink noise...

all test to try to colapse time is limited... never is equal to the real time laps...

Jean.

I go go today to buy my box of caps in Solen....
:dancin:

Earl K
05-31-2005, 06:35 AM
I did see the PIO caps on the "bay", but I can't find them again
PIO caps on eBay (most from the former CCCP / "The Evil Empire") (http://search.ebay.com/Capacitors-PIO_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZs earchQQcopagenumZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR10QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ 2QQsacatZQ2d1QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbsQQsotrZ2) :D

- I bought the 2.2uf / 400 volt variety shown. These feature an oil-soaked metallized paper , all encased within a metal tube with hermitically sealed in glass ends. Landed cost was around $60.00 Cdn for 20 caps.
( Collecting caps from around the world is not a cheap hobby, FWIW :p )

- I'd like some of the 1.0uf / 160 volt types to make up other sizes .

:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
05-31-2005, 03:03 PM
Jean,

The Solen film/foil are characteristic bright and do benefit from burn in as for most caps.

Pink or probably better white noise would work. I've heard some use an FM tuner off station for this. I suspect it has the effect of relaxing the dielectric.

According to some capacitor manufacturers, the winding tension as a lot do do with the overall sonic character of a film/foil & metalised / film foil.

This is where is becomes a black Art, using specialised winding equipment, the skill of the operator, proprietary dieletric forumations etc.

For about ten years I was in the industrial sales and marketing manager in coated fabrics business and we used special coating and tape sealing equipment. All our competitors had similar equipment but it was our technical knowledge of materials, the skill of our plant operators and the close relationships with our customers and end use applications that gave us the competitive advantage.

I imagine the capacitor industry is no different and the guys that make these more specialised exotic capacitors are in niche markets. Hence they keep their hands close to their chests.

Ian

B&KMan
05-31-2005, 07:16 PM
Jean,
According to some capacitor manufacturers, the winding tension as a lot do do with the overall sonic character of a film/foil & metalised / film foil.
Ian

Hi Earl, and thanks for good point of view....

I go today in Solen And i talk big clash theory with Solen fondator.

Denis Solen is friend of Meitner too ...

I put argumentation of found in S5500 product overview.

Solen is explain the electrolytic IS bad caps, and problem of memory, loadding current, and Zero cross problem. For fast caps this is absolutely not valuable...

Solen explain for fast caps, the Dc charge is affecte the response but in worse side... the dc charge on film and foil is downgrade in regards standart circuit... TITAN shock because Giskar is expose a point of view of G.Timber where is consider the best is DC charge in Film and foil....


:banghead: :biting: :banghead:

The best is build 2 versions but the price for extreme version is just over thousand...

so, I hope Giskar the great and Mr JBL ingeneer is wind this TITAN shock...


But for your beautiful forum I keep notes of discution and I perform test on specialised machine instrumental evaluation of caps ...


OK !! fix your helmet...

all caps is 2,2uF value....

=====================
test electrolytic:

---real = 21,69 uf
--- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,03856
--- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
not a inductance or reactance
= 0,2829
======================
test polyester:

---real = 21,11 uf
--- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00388
--- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
not a inductance or reactance
= 0,02917
=====================
test Polypropylene metal: (pb000)

---real = 21,83 uf
--- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00049
--- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
not a inductance or reactance
= 0,00357
=====================
test Film and foil: (atrnetion because the value is not available in this format, I keep 2.0

---real = 1,97 uf
--- dielectric loose ( DF) = 0,00008
--- ESR ( ac resistance at 1000 Hz estimation for all fr)
not a inductance or reactance
= 0,00689

=======================
=======================

The step is value of ten of each step...

Do you understand why film and foil is more superior and it is stupid to bybass by ... (what finally...)

I hope this is report is clarified certains aspect of evaluation caps.


Best regards at all

jean

: cheers :


p.s.

Because the very high end product is different by just a few light precision, the concept of Dc charge is probably better in theory.
ecause My subtitution of high caps is appear to play full taste as little more power, maybe the Dc charge is change this aspect by more nervous and subtil details...

creazy or not crazy yuk yuk yuk...

:applaud:

rek50
06-01-2005, 05:46 AM
Thanks for the link Earl. At 3 bucks each in hand, they seem a bargin compared to a Supreme Silver/Oil.

Earl K
06-01-2005, 06:05 AM
Hi Jean


Solen explain for fast caps, the Dc charge is affecte the response but in worse side... the dc charge on film and foil is downgrade in regards standart circuit... TITAN shock because Giskar is expose a point of view of G.Timber where is consider the best is DC charge in Film and foil....

- Really, the proof is in the pudding . One needs to experiment with these topologies ( DC Biasing, Cascading, Simple Bypassing, Symetrical Electrode Couplings ) before one can venture an opinion that's even half informed. Even after trying out all these topologies / it is still only opinion .

- For Instance; with DC biasing, I find it impossible to determine if subtle details in the UHF realm have been "scrubbed out" or whether some very subtle resonances have been tamed down. Personally, I find it very hard to tell the difference between the two. On the other hand, in the HF & Midrange areas, the resonance control through Biasing is quite obvious to my ears.
- Recently, I started a thread on "How Much DC bias Voltage" is best for UHF response. ( maybe in a year or two , it'll garner some DIY interest ).
Anyways, as such when I DC Bias, I find it manditory to include bypass caps ( for a form of UHF restoration ) .


OK !! fix your helmet...

all caps is 2,2uF value....
,,,,,,,,,,,,,.............
^^^^^^^^^^^^



I appreciate your involved efforts at establishing the DF & ESR numbers for various dielectrics. They do help to establish a basis on which to build a comprehension of why different capacitors sound , well,, different.
- Unfortunately, they don't tell the full story from a musical point of view. " ie ; Painting by numbers " is not art / though a scientist might think it is .

As Ian has mentioned , creating a "musical" sounding cap has everything to do with "balancing out" these following factors;

(i) Physical Dielectric Ratios or ( Length vs Diameter of the material used )
(ii) Winding Tensions
(iii) Thicknesses used for either the dielectric or foil
(iv) Type of Dielectric Used
(v) Quality of Dielectric ( ie ; is it recycled Polypropylene or is it virgin stock ?
(vi) Type of Foil ; is it Aluminum, Tin, Copper or Silver ?


The step is value of ten of each step...

Do you understand why film and foil is more superior and it is stupid to bybass by ... (what finally...)

- No , I don't understand .

- What I see here is an illogical adherence to a dogma based on a mantra of " Faster Must Be Better ". I've neither seen it proved, nor heard the implementation that "faster" equates to being "more musical" .

- In my world; this dogma ( adherence to simple numbers ) unfortunately translates into at least "10 times less likely to evaluate systems through the use of ones' ears ".


I hope this is report is clarified certains aspect of evaluation caps.

From my perspective , it just reinforces my distrust of the use ( or misuse ) of numbers ( and therefore, most cap manufacturers' simplistic claims of sonic superiority ) .

FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public .

- From the "keeping it all constructive" point of view ; I'd advise that if you want to maintain an open attitude to these questions, then design & build an "open-architecture external crossover" that will readily accept the previously mentioned capacitor topologies (ie; DC Biasing, Cascading or ByPassing ).

:cheers:

johnaec
06-01-2005, 06:11 AM
FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public.I wonder how many crossovers were designed and tweaked using new capacitors and released this way, only for the owners to find their sound changing several weeks down the road? Hopefully, finished models underwent weeks/months of testing before going into production...

John

Robh3606
06-01-2005, 07:22 AM
"Originally Posted by Earl K
FWIW ; I'd like to see all capacitor manufacturers at least "burn-in" their expensive products before releasing them onto the unsuspecting public."

I doubt you are going to see that any time soon. Burn in on capacitors is done for reliability only as far as Nasa or Mil Requirements is concerned. They are looking for manufacturing defects that are both part and lot related with provisions that if more than 5 or 10% of the lot fails it will not be used and is scrapped. These screening tests can jump prices on the caps to over 20X the unscreened part prices.

Rob:)

Zilch
06-01-2005, 09:42 AM
all caps is 2,2uF value....In the interest of precision, perhaps you should edit the "Real" values reported above.

[I have yet to ascertain the meaning of "cie" and "rodage.']


Solen explain for fast caps, the Dc charge is affecte the response but in worse side... the dc charge on film and foil is downgrade in regards standart circuit... TITAN shock because Giskar is expose a point of view of G.Timber where is consider the best is DC charge in Film and foil.... Geez, you didn't give them any MONEY, I trust.... :p

It is certainly reassuring to know that film and foil is superior to electrolyitc with respect to the measured parameters. I guess that's why we don't use electrolyitics anymore, mostly....

Didya make yer UHF wires yet?

B&KMan
06-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Hi Jean

- From the "keeping it all constructive" point of view ; I'd advise that if you want to maintain an open attitude to these questions, then design & build an "open-architecture external crossover" that will readily accept the previously mentioned capacitor topologies (ie; DC Biasing, Cascading or ByPassing ).

:cheers:

This is exactly My attitude and my order of over 50 caps for 2 network is ready on solen : i send picts tomorow :D .)

Thanks for your support...

Jean.

B&KMan
06-01-2005, 03:24 PM
Didya make yer UHF wires yet?

Yes great timing surprise,

Because the new mil spec on airplane, Bombardier Canada drop a couple of rool of High end copper -silver with telfon jacket on surplus local store. mmmmmmmmmmm this is my best shot in this year !!!!

I probably perform your test but no doubt, this cable is real superior construction and more in the way of application, but final test is listen after 2 month rodage (yuk yuk yuk )
Jean.

B&KMan
06-02-2005, 10:11 AM
i send picts tomorow :D .)

I promise... take a look it is free :D :D :D

Jean...

Zilch
06-02-2005, 10:36 AM
"It's astounding,
time is fleeting,
madness takes its toll.

But listen closely,
[not for very much longer....],
I've got to
keep control.

I remember
doing the Timewarp;
let's do the Timewarp
again...."

B&KMan
06-02-2005, 10:53 AM
"It's astounding,
time is fleeting,
madness takes its toll.

But listen closely,
[not for very much longer....],
I've got to
keep control.

I remember
doing the Timewarp;
let's do the Timewarp
again...."

Hey it is poem !!! :)

Is sound sweet and good in my ear....

At each time, the great stuff create a elevation of human and
great "vibration" on the soul...

I hope this is this effect :D

Jean.

B&KMan
06-02-2005, 02:06 PM
Hey, the heretic quest continue...

Look this crazy cascade caps, 160 Uf PB + 18 uF Pb + 1,5uF film and foil + ,01 film and foil...

Of course the Dc charge is comming soon...


:D

Jean.

B&KMan
06-02-2005, 10:52 PM
Hello again, great members...

this message is for any guy who have experience to soldering big caps with multiple lead and big wire....


What is best method for best solder without burn caps...

Thanks at all... :)

I send pict for you fix idea of chalenge....

Zilch
06-03-2005, 12:10 AM
While I see the challenge you are facing, the leads on the capacitors are bent too close. To minimize stress on the connection inside the capacitor, the recommended technique is to grab the lead with long-nose pliars and gently bend outside of them, leaving at least 1/8" unbent at the capacitor, more if possible. If you've ever opened one up, you know the connection inside is tenuous, and easily appreciate that minimizing any stress placed upon it is best practice.

Of course, it's never that simple, is it? My Solens come with the leads already bent as shown, too close to the body. So, I ask myself whether its better to UNBEND them there and then bend them properly, or just leave them alone. The sealing seems to be done with epoxy, and it may be able to take the stress adequately. However, it also breaks the epoxy seal to the lead, potentially allowing contamination to enter the internal connection and accelerate oxidation there. Ask the "Expert" at Solen about this. It may be desireable to reseal the leads with more epoxy (ask them to specify a type) after re-bending. I think maybe I'd leave them alone if they came bent that close already, as you have done. :banghead:

Further complicating this is the practical desire to have the printing on the devices "up" when installed, so that the values can be read and verified in the future. Thus it's not possible for the manufacturer to determine which way to bend the leads in advance. To achieve this objective, it'll be necessary to unbend some of the leads anyway. It'd be better if Solen did not bend the leads from several installation perspectives. Of course, it's more expensive to pack and ship them that way. Tell them Zilch has deemed them idiots and cheapskates with respect to lead dressing. :p

Remember that solder is not a mechanical connection. Best practice is to make a solid mechanical (and preferably, gas-tight) connection between components before soldering. I see you are doing this. That's the reason in point-to-point wiring that leads are wrapped several times tightly through holes in terminal strips. No doubt there are MIL specs on this. I think where you're making connections to the large-diameter wires there, and connecting lead bundles, I'd wrap and twist with some small diameter solid wire to make the mechanical connection first. I save the gold-plated leads from Theta capacitors for just such applications.

Recognize that you are using an assembly technique that is not amenable to later modification. If you want to change a capacitor type or value in the future, or replace a defective one, it will not be easiy accomplished with this construction method. That's one reason why terminal strips are often used for the purpose. See photos of DIY crossovers made by Robh3606 on this forum, for example. You may want to rethink your approach.

Some others here have used eurostyle screw terminal blocks successfully. Properly selected and installed, they make solid, gas-tight solderless connections. A combination of techniques can work, too, like twist and solder the leads and then insert into terminal blocks for major connections, such as to your large-diameter wires, for example. Pay attention to terminal block ratings and construction when choosing, of course. I like the ones with hex socket screws best so I can be confident about tightening them securely.

To solder, attach an alligator clip to the lead to act as heat sink between your soldering and the capacitor, or hold with needle-nose pliars. Bending the leads some distance from the body of the capacitor allows room for this. The further away from the capacitor you can accomplish the heat-sinking the better, so long as you're not also directly heating the heat sink with the soldering:

rek50
06-03-2005, 05:13 AM
Well, first off, I don't know if my method would be blessed by the "Grand Pubars" of sonic balance, but here it is. For the leads that come bent too close for my comfort, I leave the close bend as is and while holding them firm (No stress) I form an additional stand-off bend, to suit numbers up placement on the board. I hold the caps to the board with nylon ties and some acid-free silicone sealer.I use a ring terminal, crimpted (Sound Mechanical) and soldered (Gas Free) on the end of a hook-up wire. Through the ring I wrap the cap leads (Sound Mechanical) and seal them with solder (Gas Free). The shank of the ring terminal is a press fit in the board, with some epoxy, with the wire running under, for point to point connection. Granted this method isn't too kind for future experiments, but it works for me.

Earl K
06-03-2005, 05:54 AM
Hi Jean

- Here are pics of 2 of Giskards creations. They are the Low-Pass & Hi-Pass sections for the 3-way Project May speaker. ( These are the non-biased prototypes ) .

- I like these layouts a lot and would recommend that you draw some inspiration from them. In particular, note how bypass caps are not tightly wound onto the leads of the base cap. I prefer the usage of both types of terminal blocks ( as shown ) .

:cheers:

geowal3
06-03-2005, 06:09 AM
Rek50, could you suggest brand/type of silicone? Thanks!

rek50
06-03-2005, 06:26 AM
Good show Earl. It looks like ART. Ring terminals are good. Terminal blocks are good. Sound (Positive) connections all around. The work of a master. Viewing the lay-out answers many potential questions. And a thanks to Giskard for sharing (Hope he reads this, I miss his tech/wit)...

rek50
06-03-2005, 06:34 AM
GE Silicone II has Methanol/Ammonia instead of acid. Most Automotive Silicone Sealer labeled "Oxygen Sensor Safe" has no acid. Smell it to be sure.

geowal3
06-03-2005, 06:39 AM
Rek50, thanks - you just saved me from disaster; about to use some "ordinary" silicone on a pile of Solens!:)

rek50
06-03-2005, 06:43 AM
You're Welcome. Remember, they have to look good AND smell good, LOL...

Charlie4350
06-03-2005, 09:24 AM
Everytime I see shots of Giskard's creations, it brings out the audio lust factor. Sweet.

B&KMan
06-03-2005, 09:35 AM
Hey many thanks for full generous reply ....

:applaud:


Well, I know a couple of point:

---Solder is not a mechanical link...
--- Good solder is thin electrical link...

--- Bend the lead caps gently with hand.
(Solen is not recommend to keep long nose because it is dent a lead abd create a leak point...)
Normally the lead is gently curve not agressif angle close to caps.
In regards of cut or leakage or micro broken epoxy...

--- All caps is fixed mechanical for vibration...
(in general more hardener the glue more transfert vibration is better)
so crazy glue or epoxy is first choice...

--- Aligator clip for heatsink during solder...

--- Good solder: I choice WBT 4% silver and Cardas (high level version with no lead)

--- Yes the choice of connection is depend of factor considaration: For test purpose Giskar set-up is best, but (in regards of solen and in regard of Giskar too the final set-up is soldering to point of point. ) Illimination 30-50 % point soldering and cable variation + terminator leak...)

The good job is not necessary estethical look ...

--- ideally the link connection is not exceed 90 degrees for hesterical flow current (I dont remaind the white paper) but the same size and flat angle as possible is best ( vulgarisation: electrical is same principe of plumber pipe)

--- finnaly the crimp is delicate question... Yes is good if elements and crimp is not affect by oxidation... +, the crimps is critical quality on regards of density, contact, stress and all. (my friend is study in telecom in university and tool crimp for telecom is cost over 500$ and crimps is more than 1 $ but this tool garantee reliability and less loose contact than other system...)
So crimp is good or superior but in circonstances controled... It is possible to represent a better approach but not necessary ideal approach depend on application...

I have omit points ????

:blink:

Jean.

B&KMan
06-03-2005, 09:44 AM
I use a ring terminal, crimpted (Sound Mechanical) and soldered (Gas Free) on the end of a hook-up wire.

I try to go in this way but no idea what is good ring terminal:
I have awg 10 and 14awg lead caps + small and fragile lead of bypass...
If I put to big ring the extra metal is affectted negatively the electrical link...

Do you have pict of your work??

thanks

Jean.

B&KMan
06-03-2005, 09:52 AM
Well, I leave the close bend as is and while holding them firm

Well in this case of of 160Uf the lead lengh is too small for autorisation safe bending and space... I know is not best but all the time the restriction push me to choose in 2 not ideal situation, more contact of chance to break contact...


But I appreciate feeback
Jean.

Earl K
06-03-2005, 10:27 AM
Hi Jean (rek50 et al )

- Here's the link to the thread on the N250ti networks (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3427) that Giskard made for jblnut .
There are some quite instructive pictures in the thread ( for the DIYer ) .

- This effort represents another work of great industrial design & layout , etc. and is an achievable & worthy goal for any DIYer .

- Jean, you may not like the 180° turns that the baised caps make with this layout / though this topology is of course reworkable so that those caps can go in a straight line.

-Note 1: the 180° turns ( on the biased caps ) haven't dampened jblnuts enthusiasm for this upgrade / though I'm not dismissing this thought of ( best practice including the ) avoidance of sharp turns in HF & UHF circuits .

-Note 2: this biased N250Ti takes a monolythic cap approach. Again, the absence of bypass caps didn't turn out to be a dentriment to the success of this network.

- Read jblnuts' testamonial on page 2 of this link ( about his newly built [at the time ], DC-biased, Solen based networks ) . (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=289&page=2&pp=40)

-Note 3: I also find, upon returning to listen to a biased network, that the difference in clarity (especially in the midrange area ) is, well; " Staggering " .

Good Listening <. EarlK

B&KMan
06-03-2005, 12:44 PM
- Jean, you may not like the 180° turns that the baised caps make with this layout / though this topology is of course reworkable so that those caps can go in a straight line.

Hi Earl,

Sorry for my another bad english but I'm not understand your answer...

Well, JBLNuts and Giskar is produce great work and very clean industrial subtitution layout but, all is question of degree of crazy... For my part I try to less part in insert as possible, the look is not good but no extra cable, screw or crimp added as possible of design... Again talk with Cristian and Denis Solen and it is preferable to torque lead and point to point solder than add cable of extra device in circuit... All addition is perceiving in final result.... any add soldering or contact is less better...

It is question of purity approach... Well, the best is link without added extra. but is it difficult or imposible to work in perfect state...

But thanks

Jean
:)

B&KMan
06-03-2005, 02:53 PM
Hi again,

I try to corse layout before clean wire and solder (see pict...)

But I realise it is imposible to create good conctat in too much cable in same place...

I try to buy a star connector (stainless-steel) see pict but I'm not found

Anybody Have idea where to buy this ???


Thanks all


Jean

Earl K
06-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Hi Jean


I try to buy a star connector (stainless-steel) see pict but I'm not found
- Anybody Have idea where to buy this ???

- No, I can't seem to find anyone who sells a 4-tab ( or more ) ring terminal / like you've shown attached to those capacitors .

- Personally, I'd do as Giskard has done / and crimp ( & solder ) individual ring connectors onto precisely ( cut to length ) wires . With a long enough bolt , one can get quite a few of these onto a single stand-off post. I'd make the individual lengths equal / including the combined length of inductor ( and capacitor ) leads to maintain the best time balance ( for coherence ) . I believe that is more important ( than ultimate length - give or take a couple of inches ) when adopting a star-ground configuration .


Sorry for my another bad english but I'm not understand your answer...

I was just pointing out that in Giskards DC Biasing layout / the signal takes a "U-Turn" ( because the pair of caps are side by side ) at the resistor junction .
- I believe you mentioned , you didn't want to employ any sharp turns for those pesky electrons to make . :D


:cheers:

rek50
06-04-2005, 07:25 AM
Hi Guys, Nice links/concepts. For ring terminals I don't get fussy. I remove the small insulating piece (small heat and off they go). I got the terminals at Parts Express. They aren't exotic by any means. For a multiple ring terminal, how about making your own? A 2mm thick piece of pure Silver with drilled holes to suit your mounting post/number of wires should work. I consider wires/cap leads to be similar to water pipes, keeping bends and lengths in mind to insure good flow. Hard adhesive?? Less vibration?? "Rubber meets the road" Nice ride/flexible tires...

Ian Mackenzie
06-05-2005, 05:46 AM
Jean,

I think Earl's suggestion to try Giskards implementation is wise. Particularly in view of the sheer number of parts for a biased network.

Consider for a moment the long term stability of literally conecting the parts as you earlier post implies. Soldered or not, components not supported properly will result in fatigue of connections. Correct phyical electrical engineering is the key

As to the theoretical aspects of so called solderless joints etc, bare in mind in the output stage of your amplifier there are dozens of solder joints...I think Solen are wanking....seriously these capacitors are not in that league.

Just use good soldering skills, cleanliness is an absolute must, poor joints often result from impurities. Use a good 50 watt iron ( 46 watt Goot Px 232)...a low powered 25 watt iron well never get those connections hot enough!

Below is a snippet of "The project in progress to be rolled out soon". The resisters, wiring and terminals are mounted in the rear side of the board. The passive LC elements on the top side. This job is still in the works and will look a lot neater when completed. This approach is a bit like a doubled sided pcb...it enables the best prefered layout with excellent physical design. Giskards 3 layer approach offered even greater compacting where more complexity is involved.


Ian

rek50
06-05-2005, 07:18 AM
"bare in mind in the output stage of your amplifier there are dozens of solder joints...I think Solen are wanking...." I've said before, there's solder everywhere inside most vintage (Desirable to me) audio equipment. I can't help but think there's some marketing going on there(Solen). No shot fired, just sifting through it all.

Zilch
06-05-2005, 11:02 AM
The good job is not necessary estethical look ...
You have that backwards. Few good jobs are not also neatly done.


I try to buy a star connector (stainless-steel) see pict but I'm not found.Can't solder to stainless, I don't believe.

Wires ain't pipes. Electrons ain't a fluid. Bends don't "throttle" 'em.

Ian Mackenzie
06-05-2005, 02:04 PM
Well we're not dealing with microwaves here.

Ian

B&KMan
06-05-2005, 02:26 PM
Jean,
Soldered or not, components not supported properly will result in fatigue of connections. Correct phyical electrical engineering is the key

Just use good soldering skills, cleanliness is an absolute must, poor joints often result from impurities. Use a good 50 watt iron ( 46 watt Goot Px 232)...a low powered 25 watt iron well never get those connections hot enough!

Ian

Sorry for delay... I go in deep Wood this week end and I complete eat by moskito, black fly, and all... So I feel in middle in two water ....

I recognise the solidity of build circuit is critical for long term... Actually my pict is just for look is set-up is coarse.... Final product is fixing in epoxy and crazy glue... No doubt is poll with little star connector is stabilize more connector, caps and lead... Maybe other set-up is build wire line and soldering each cap (same look as plan, but theorically little less better than unique star connector...

ACH !!! no ideal solution, Giskar is built, as same couple ex: layout of solen) on 1/4 board. but, I'm not build in 1/4 or multi-layout 1/4 circuit...


Well, all of points is important, so I realize I'm not push my integration design for enormous LF section. Only this section is problem... ALL PARTS IS TOO BIG... wire , coil, caps lead, quantity of connection...

Thanks for all input guys...

mmmmmmmmm the quest is continue...

B&KMan
06-05-2005, 02:31 PM
------Hi Guys, Nice links/concepts.

-----A 2mm thick piece of pure Silver with drilled holes to suit your mounting post/number of wires should work.



-----Hey hey !!! Is Bruel & kjaer design of amplifier for shaker 20dB gain but 30AMPS power... (so each part Is over over box no cheap solution in this way...)


----- Where to find a pure silver plate ???

Maybe try to buy start connector with wire... hour hour party Time....


But thanks for cue...


Jean

rek50
06-05-2005, 03:34 PM
Pure silver can be found at a jewelry supply or precious (Gold/Silver) dealer. My plumbing analogy was in reference to the similarity in professional lay-outs of pipe or conductors. I don't see sharp bends in either. The path of least resistance is the rule. Round/Open Air Coils or Square/open air coils? Torridial Transformers or Square Transformers. Round caps/Oval caps. There are shapes to suit everyone...

B&KMan
06-07-2005, 03:50 AM
The path of least resistance is the rule.

Round/Open Air Coils or Square/open air coils? Torridial Transformers or Square Transformers. Round caps/Oval caps. There are shapes to suit everyone...

Hi everybody...
Just 2 minutes for send a physical set-up of big fat crazy DC Network. Each rock plate is 12" X 12 " (Left to right) one plate contains HF & UHF section, next is mid and finaly low section...

I try to limited the number of soldering and build a start path as possible...
Nothing is perfect...

For solder: 80W big iron and 2 crocodiles clip at each lead is work perfectly...

All parts is glued in epoxy ....

: cheers :

Jean.

Earl K
06-07-2005, 04:18 AM
Hi Jean

Nice Effort !


Each rock plate is 12" X 12 " (Left to right) one plate contains HF & UHF section, next is mid and finaly low section...

- Those "rock-plates" look like marble tiling stones ( maybe from Rona / Home Depot ) . Is that what they are ? :D
- I assume that you are going all out to reduce & minimize induced "microphonics" or "micro-???" as you call them ( I guess I need a review of all the terms in your vernacular ).
- I think each plate will need rubber "snubbers" to "float" on top off, / to stop ( damp ) all microphonics. Any ideas of what you'll use ?

- As an aside, one of my favourite surplus caps in this house ( apt.) , is a cap that has the metallized rolled core encased in epoxy (this epoxy is poured into the plastic outer shell ). This cap is very, very "quiet" / which seemingly contributes to a deeper soundstage.

:cheers:

Robh3606
06-07-2005, 04:39 AM
What size wattage are those potentiometers?? They look a bit small. You may want to beef the midrange pot up a bit.

Rob:)

B&KMan
06-07-2005, 04:58 AM
- Those "rock-plates" look like marble tiling stones ( maybe from Rona / Home Depot ) . Is that what they are ? :D


Yes but is important to choose granite not marble because marble is more soft less weight and many micro-broken and is instable. and is sound Hi-pitch...



- I assume that you are going all out to reduce & minimize induced "microphonics" or "micro-???" as you call them ( I guess I need a review of all the terms in your vernacular ).
- I think each plate will need rubber "snubbers" to "float" on top off, / to stop ( damp ) all microphonics. Any ideas of what you'll use ?



Thanks for support...


I run with analyse with modal set-up for found:
--- point wave
---frecquency sensitivity.
--- Amplitude excitation.
(see my pict)
I hesitate to give a great secrets control vibration because is it very dispendious information...

Well, This forum is generous and in final issue It is impossible to tune with-out modal analyser...
(see my pict)

1--- mass inertia garantee : the vibration energy on caps is dissipate; the sensitivity of vibration energy is less. The criterion is do you feel to dissipation is fast or slow that is damping factor... This aspect is conditining the type of dissipation and create a signature in same power and value then if the caps is floating in the air. So if you put caps of rubber , you damped very high amplitude but your keep prisonner the enegie and time dissipation is long... SO what the ?&?*&? . Well imagine you have a pianist to play one note is come very tigh to another, if you put rubber you bloom amplitude vobration but this emergie is extend in time and blur the next note, and again, and again, so you saturate the rubber of the energy and is loose dissipation energy capibility... So the rule is harder than possible to create a fast medium mass transfert for clean fast as possible the energy prisonner in caps... That is the reason is you put caps on epoxy (great hardener) you caps is more fast and more silent= so better deep and gorgous...

For my part, I put a 1 inch mdf board glue on epoxy botton of my rock: in this the 2 natures of material is mutual cancel the peak amplitute of natural frecquency material and is create a high mass and fast transfert energy. This plate is fixed on back of my speaker for renforcement and create other component on this sandwitch for more cancelled energy.


Finnaly I study actually the possibility to create small box and fill to sand.

CRAZY ???


:D

Jean.

B&KMan
06-07-2005, 05:38 AM
What size wattage are those potentiometers?? They look a bit small. You may want to beef the midrange pot up a bit.

Rob:)

euhhhhhhhh...

I dont know why I'm feeling the pot is 10W So I buy a 10 watts pot....

But I look schematic, of Giskar and not spec on this !!!


:banghead: I know original pot is bigger !!!! shit!! another ride ....


Thanks for good asking !!

rek50
06-07-2005, 06:45 AM
Jean, Those "Rock Plates" are interesting. Your vibration ideas are interesting as well. They make most sense for external (Not inside cabinet) networks. My talk of "rubber mount (Silicone)" comes from observing the Silicone mounting of caps used in a pair of McIntosh SL-4 speakers that I have, as well as reading the designer/engineer (Roger Russel) thoughts on the process.( The SL-4 networks are inside the cabinets.) I would have never imagined that the vibration of electron flow, per event, would carry over to affect the next event, if it were not disapated to the extent that the cap was at full rest, while being exposed to what seems a greater source of vibration, Sound. It makes me wonder HOW the electronics aboard a rocket, Blasting away on take-off, can function at all considering the HUGE vibration environment. Keep up the good work.

B&KMan
06-07-2005, 08:28 AM
I would have never imagined that the vibration of electron flow, per event, would carry over to affect the next event, if it were not disapated to the extent that the cap was at full rest, while being exposed to what seems a greater source of vibration, Sound. It makes me wonder HOW the electronics aboard a rocket, Blasting away on take-off, can function at all considering the HUGE vibration environment.

thanks for encouragments...


well in bad situation you have better approach is tuned sound vibration for keep sound good. If you put rubber, silicon or high damping for disconnect the caps on the inside wall cabinet you drop just little peak amplitude but bloom sound...

The JBL metal box with glue on all big part is really better approach than masonite... the effective mass and dissipation energy is better and before of all: the damping factor is good and natural frequency is balanced by multi layout materials...

ex:the masonite natural frecquency is in general 3 big modal frecquency...
at this frequency is amplifying the vibration and creatte a big differencial vibration with other part of frecquency... this effect vreate a tribo-electric effect and microsonic effect at this frecquence... and your sound capture this effect and go output with signature... so your sound is sound " masonite" :D
the engeneer jobs is creat compound light as possible in regards of this criterion:
---less signature possible
---with low damping (for this application)
---low amplitute reactive vibraton on all spectrum.
---commercial price and production restriction.

On the rocket , all part in consider, number back-up, and more more more... But it is not a 2$ solution !!!

1 satelitte is generally cost couple hundred millions...

My network is evalutaion final at 1500$ each !! (without handcraft fees)
So imagine the retail price for this...)
IT IS A REALY DYE project... yuk yuk yuk...

Zilch
06-07-2005, 09:42 AM
And the batteries are where? ;)

Note: 9V lithium battery is available, "Ultralife" at Radio Shack, Parts Express (#140-205, $8.00).

Will last 10 years, maybe. Put installation date on it.

Maybe solder the connections to the battery terminals carefully, or figure a way to seal the clip without contaminating it.

We're talkin' cotton-candy currents here; any oxidation over time will kill the bias voltage.

[Less than potato, even.... :p ]