Hookup wire upgrade while im in there. Yay or Nay? [Archive]

soundboy

01-04-2007, 08:30 PM

I have audioquest type 4 in a dynaudio system, most of my JBL stuff has monster 16 guage XP, and I THINK:blink: that the audioquest is slightly clearer....IMHO unless a cab has 20 guage wire in it, it's such a short distance it won't matter that much....and I am a freak when it comes to caps, interconnects, and such....and have pretty good ears still...I just can't hear a whole lot on 18 inches of wire, unless it is 22 guage lamp cord, compared to Monster studio pro1000 (which I use for my live rigs)....fwiw, the claritycaps are the s$#t.....blow away the solens, and only marginally more money....check out the net....anything else is stupid expensive for anything big enough to do a three way system without spending many hundreds...I now have them in several systems...they sound clearer, smoother, and more natural than many others at several times the price...(hovland for one) Pete...

Robh3606

01-04-2007, 08:56 PM

I wouldn't go too nuts gage wise. I would be the first to admit I use 12 ga on woofers and 14/16 on anything else but that's over kill when you consider what the lengths are. Chances are the inductors and voice coils have a couple of hundred feet of much lighter gage than what's already in there as it is.

Rob:)

grumpy

01-04-2007, 09:48 PM

Personally, I'd give more consideration to the state of the connections than
the wire itself, unless there appeared to be corrosion inside the jacket... but sure,
knock yourself out. :) -grumpy

Rolf

01-05-2007, 02:43 AM

Inside the cabinet ... use silver wires. Improves the sound a lot. From amp to speakers it is a matter of taste. Some of the members here don't believe (don't hear?:blink: ) any difference with cables. I use different kind of Monster cables for different area of the frequencies.

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 08:11 AM

Rolf

01-05-2007, 09:02 AM

"I mean, i dont know why people spend big bucks on speaker cables"

Me either.

To think that Wente, Blackburn, Olson, Lansing, Fletcher, Hilliard, Voight and such were too damned stupid to realize that by simply using "better" wires they could get much better sound.........how did that get by them?

Hmmm.

Tom. It is OK that you haven't been able to/don't have any interest in cables. What you should realize is that times move on, an wires are not cables. You probably agree that cars have been better over the years. So has cables. If your ears can hear up to 15000Hz you should be able to hear differences on cables.

spwal

01-05-2007, 09:06 AM

you are preaching to the choir! the 19s are singing with cheapo monster zip cord...

I did poke around in there when i hooked up the drivers and ya... i may as well do the wiring when i spend all that money on crossover freshining.

90 percent of the crapola out there is audio jewlery... but really folks... the binding posts on the 19s arent the nicest.... but then again... if you arent changing the binding posts on the drivers as well, whats the f-ing point? :)

I may as well do it so that they are good for another 20 years.

I have had fantastic results with Jensen Copper Paper in Oil Caps, but they did cost a fortune. I certainly will try to keep things within reason.

Rolf

01-05-2007, 09:13 AM

you are preaching to the choir! the 19s are singing with cheapo monster zip cord...

Maybe you can hear the vibrato in the vocal with better CABLES. Not like cheap wires. They bring you that.

Thom

01-05-2007, 09:29 AM

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 10:00 AM

"wires are not cables."

Maybe not in Norwegian but in English they are.

Thom

01-05-2007, 10:40 AM

I thought I might simplify this with a couple of definitions from Websters, but a quick look indicates that Webster wouldn't simplify this at all.

4313B

01-05-2007, 10:45 AM

I mean, i dont know why people spend big bucks on speaker cables then have the last foot or so inside the speaker be complete crap.Yeppers, I can see all those electrons putting their little shit waders on to make it that last foot or so. Those poor dumb bastards...

spwal

01-05-2007, 11:05 AM

Check this sight out. After that, it's a matter of what will make you feel good or be at least a level or two higher than any friends you may have who are refurbishing their speakers. Nah, I'm not going to give any advice but you might want to read what he has to say, check out his credentials and then that's at least one more data point. Personally I'd call it more than one, but at least one.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

I've always felt that speaker wires should be heavy enough to carry the signal with little or no effect and light enough to do little or no damage to the terminals on the speakers.

I read through it. it sure is a nice read though i would have to disagree... i have A/Bed cables and they can do pretty cool things to the palpability of bass, clarity of cymbals, location and holographic quality of instruments and voice etc. But then again they cost a fortune. I have spent hours going back and forth, back and forth. I wouldnt say its better, just different.

I for one certainly would not spend a fortune on cables.. especially if i am aware that my internals (ie crossover parts, binding posts, and hookup wire) have all been exposed to the elements for 30 years.

But i still do think they are neat-- insanely priced-- but neat.

There is no doubt that my search for audio bliss has led me to simpler times and the pursuit of vintage gear etc.... even that is a bit of manipulation and molding. My perception that things were better in the "good ole days" is more a part of my perception of craftsmanship than a reaction to technology. To think that advancements have not been made in audio over the last 3-4 decades is pretty myopic i think.

The point is, that you can now get lighter, more cost effective materials and technology to make high quality sound. You dont need to have huge horns handmade out of heavy metals in southern california. You can have tiny puck tweeters made in china and shipped over.

Can you imagine, for one second, a company coming out and making something like an Altec 19 commercially available in the USA in this day and age? The thought alone is inconcieveable.

mark my words... China is going to emerge as the next hifi capital of the world... it already is well on its way.

How much does an avantegarde horn cost to manufacture? 4-5 USD per horn perhaps? Sell the system for 30,000 euros or more?

Why are we not all in China right now setting up shop and bringing tuba sized horns to the masses for like 2-3k for complete horn systems? it is totally do-able...

ok i have rattled on long enough.

but ya, thanks for the read on the cables. there is alot of snake oil out there and i have become exceedingly distrustful of any magazine, ad, or published review. I have become increasingly reliant on the good word of forum-members, who share a passion for the stuff and are not in it for any other reason.

4313B

01-05-2007, 11:06 AM

But i still do think they are neat-- insanely priced-- but neat.They're supposed to be neat. They're neato.

mark my words... China is going to emerge as the next hifi capital of the world... it already is well on its way.Unfortunately for China there simply aren't enough global resources left to sustain their alledged ascendancy.

And now that we have control of the Iraqi oilfields...

toddalin

01-05-2007, 11:09 AM

I use 12-gauge wire and try to use oxygen free copper, but sometimes just use 12-gauge low voltage wire. I only use silver-bearing solder in my conections and crossover networks.

But 12-gauge doesn't fit in the speaker terminals. What I do here is strip back some wire and solder up the ends with silver solder. I then use a sanding wheel to round down the ends to fit within the speaker terminals.

4313B

01-05-2007, 11:12 AM

I use 12-gauge wireI use 10-gauge wire...

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 11:26 AM

I use 10-gauge wire...

Oh yeah huh! I use 6 but pigtail it with 22 so it fits in the little terminal blocks of the drivers. Why don't they make them bigger??;) I went to redo all my inductors in 12 gage but they wouldn't fit in the cabinets:biting:

Rob:)

edgewound

01-05-2007, 11:30 AM

"wires are not cables."

Maybe not in Norwegian but in English they are.

In English...a "wire" is a single conductor, be it multiple strands or a solid.

A "cable" is made up from a bundle of "wires", or multiple conductors.

The only real thing to consider when choosing a cable is price. If it costs more it must be gooder.:blink: :p :D ;)

In reality, though, the saying "size matters" is the most correct....oh... and keep it clean.

Rolf

01-05-2007, 12:03 PM

edgewound

01-05-2007, 12:19 PM

This (Cable stuff) has been discussed over and over again, and no conclusion has ever been made.

I have decided to make a new thread about this in the General forum.

My conclusion is: Those of you who can not hear any difference of different cables: Stay out of the thread. Those who can hear differences: Welcome, and let us discuss different cables.

Rolf,

I didn't say I can't hear a difference. I have a first hand experience with a man named in that link whose product bears his name...let's just say the conversation was very "revealing".

There's well made cables and not so well made cables, but in speaker cables, size is the most important element.

In line-level interconnects it's a whole different ball game with shield, jacket material, etc.

Canare, Mogami type is great pro-grade line-level cable at about 1 or 2 two bucks US a foot. RG6 quad shield works great too, but not very flexible...about 25 cents a foot, and now you can get snap on RCA connectors much like crimp on F connectors.

I've seen the $50,000 cables. They only reason to spend excessive amounts of cash on cables is you just have too much cash to store.

Unfortunatly, I don't have that much cash.

But...I'll gladly stay out of the discussion.

Thom

01-05-2007, 12:21 PM

In English...a "wire" is a single conductor, be it multiple strands or a solid.

A "cable" is made up from a bundle of "wires", or multiple conductors.

That's what I thought so I was going to paste a couple of definitions from Webster's, wow!

For all I know you may have a proper definition there but if it is there are a dozen more I guarantee it

Sometimes it seems like discussing wires/cables is much like discussing religion or politics accept there may be more science to the religion and politics. I can't verify if what he (Roger Russell) says is true, and though his credentials are high when I was seriously shopping for store bought speakers I always thought his were missing something, he says nobody, in a serious A/B test, has ever been able to pick a particular set of cables without an explanation. (there are "special cables" with high capacitance that some amp may be sensitive to foe instance).

Rolf

01-05-2007, 12:32 PM

Rolf,

I didn't say I can't hear a difference. I have a first hand experience with a man named in that link whose product bears his name...let's just say the conversation was very "revealing".

There's well made cables and not so well made cables, but in speaker cables, size is the most important element.

In line-level interconnects it's a whole different ball game with shield, jacket material, etc.

Canare, Mogami type is great pro-grade line-level cable at about 1 or 2 two bucks US a foot. RG6 quad shield works great too, but not very flexible...about 25 cents a foot, and now you can get snap on RCA connectors much like crimp on F connectors.

I've seen the $50,000 cables. They only reason to spend excessive amounts of cash on cables is you just have too much cash to store.

Unfortunatly, I don't have that much cash.

But...I'll gladly stay out of the discussion.

Hi edgewound. I was not referring to you, or anybody particular. I am just tired of hearing over and over again that "cables does not matter", and "you can use any sort of copper lead".

I know cables matters. I hear differences. Both on interconnects and speaker cables. Those who cannot? ... well, I rest my case. That is why I want to start a thread for those who can. Maybe some conclusion can come out of it.

You are highly welcome to the discussion.

WTPRO

01-05-2007, 12:32 PM

I do not see any need to pay esoteric prices for a cable either. The cable and the interconnects do however need to be up to the job. And yes, arguably there can be a predictable and measurable difference. I personally dont see the harm in adjusting my treble a few tenths of a dB. After all, what do you think happens at the recording studio?

Beyond that, cables can be measured quite effectively with the right equipment. Here is a link I have posted a few times showing how much change in inductance you can get with two 36" test leads.

http://www.woofertester.com/measurecable.htm

If anyone is going to the CES, Smith & Larson Audio will be showing off the Woofer Tester 2, Woofer Tester Pro and Speaker Tester at our booth, #404 in the High Performance Audio Venue at the Venetian convention center. This demo is pretty easy to show. We will have other stuff there as well.

Best regards,
Keith Larson (WT-Pro)
Smith & Larson Audio

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 12:38 PM

"I know cables matters. I hear differences. Both on interconnects and speaker cables. Those who cannot? ... well, I rest my case."

And I know that if she weighs the same as a duck she's a witch. I rest my case.

Storm

01-05-2007, 12:41 PM

Tom -

Stop with the insults, please.

Nothing wrong with having opinions. It takes a mature man to walk by and leave others alone. I presume you were the bully on the playground? And yes, I was the one that was bullied - and apparenty, still am.

I rest my case.

-Storm.

;)

Rolf

01-05-2007, 12:44 PM

Hi. I do not understand that graph, and I surly can't hear the graph. I am NOT talking about esoteric prices. I am talking about the difference in sound between a cable used for your lamps or refrigerator VS a cable used for hi-fi ... different ones.

I have compared many cables, and can tell you that xxxxx,xx cables does not neccassry sound better than xxxx,xx or xxx,xx.

Welcome to the new thread, just be serious.

I do not see any need to pay esoteric prices for a cable either. The cable and the interconnects do however need to be up to the job. And yes, arguably there can be a predictable and measurable difference. I personally dont see the harm in adjusting my treble a few tenths of a dB. After all, what do you think happens at the recording studio?

Beyond that, cables can be measured quite effectively with the right equipment. Here is a link I have posted a few times showing how much change in inductance you can get with two 36" test leads.

http://www.woofertester.com/measurecable.htm

If anyone is going to the CES, Smith & Larson Audio will be showing off the Woofer Tester 2, Woofer Tester Pro and Speaker Tester at our booth, #404 in the High Performance Audio Venue at the Venetian convention center. This demo is pretty easy to show. We will have other stuff there as well.

Best regards,
Keith Larson (WT-Pro)
Smith & Larson Audio

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 12:48 PM

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 12:54 PM

"Stop with the insults, please."

It's not insulting to throw someone's argument back at them. I'm sorry you find disagreement disagreeable but life is full of it.

You know we can't just all slap each other on the backs and tell each other what great guys we are all the time.

4313B

01-05-2007, 12:55 PM

You know we can't just all slap each other on the backs and tell each other what great guys we are all the time.That would totally suck! :rotfl:

edgewound

01-05-2007, 01:37 PM

"In English...a "wire" is a single conductor, be it multiple strands or a solid."

Of course a wire need not even be a conductor such as in wire rope which is also called "cable".

Midwesterner that I am I hold with plain speaking. Point being that when some audiophiles want to make more of something than it really is they use highfalutin terms like speaker "cable" and "interconnect".

If you buy it at the hardware store it's wire, if you buy the same thing at a hi-fi store it's a cable.

You just contradicted yourself and insulted a whole population of "mid-westerners" that usually pride themselves on good 'ol 'merican accuracy.

If you went to the hardware store and asked for "wire" they send you to the wire section, or ask "electrical, or baling?"

If you asked for "wire rope" they'd ask you for "what diameter and tensil strength?" "Wire rope" is made up of muitiple strands of "wire" and is not the same thing, is it?

So by your own definition, "wire" and "cable" mean distinctly different things.

I rest my case, too.;)

Have fun cabling those Model 19's to the ceiling....or is that wiring?

Maybe we should just switch to chains....that's easier to unnerstand.

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 01:40 PM

Can we focus on the topic at hand and stop slitting hairs about what a wire or a cable is. We all know exactly what the conversation is about. Be a good idea to leave personalities out of it as well. I have seen enough of these threads turn into fist fights on other forums. Discussions about audible differences in cables are and always will be a polarizing topic.

Rob:)

edgewound

01-05-2007, 01:49 PM

4313B

01-05-2007, 01:50 PM

Discussions about audible differences in cables are and always will be a polarizing topic.And about as reliable a waste of time as talking about capacitors. :D

spwal

01-05-2007, 01:51 PM

bringing the topic back into focus -- ok, its been established that girth (thats the exact technical description of guage) is important. And yes-- after 30 years of mold and grime my cables may have corroded, so yes, perhaps a recable with girthy wire/cable/copper booga booga is in order.

having said that... and going along with what others have said in this topic... has anyone mustered the courage to get into the speaker terminals with a Dremel tool and hollow them out a bit more?

spwal

01-05-2007, 01:52 PM

And about as reliable a waste of time as talking about capacitors. :D

i think capacitors make a big difference, but lets not go there in this topic.

4313B

01-05-2007, 01:54 PM

has anyone mustered the courage to get into the speaker terminals with a Dremel tool and hollow them out a bit more?Why? Just throw them in the trashcan and buy
Big as Texas Posts

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ACCESSORIES.html

4313B

01-05-2007, 01:55 PM

i think capacitors make a big difference, but lets not go there in this topic.The point is... talking to any of you about them is a reliable waste of time... case in point, this POS thread...

soundboy

01-05-2007, 01:58 PM

:applaud:

doyall

01-05-2007, 02:00 PM

Why? Just throw them in the trashcan and buy
Big as Texas Posts

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ACCESSORIES.html

Those are nice.

4313B

01-05-2007, 02:02 PM

Those are nice.PE has some decent ones too.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-1245

Not big enough for Texas but certainly too big for Rhode Island.

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 02:18 PM

"So by your own definition, "wire" and "cable" mean distinctly different things."

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And some guys call welding rod "wire" as in "go down to the toolroom and get me some 5/32 low-hi wire. And a Polish sausage".

And "Wire we still arguin' about this?"

Ian Mackenzie

01-05-2007, 02:40 PM

:help: Steel screws hold on JBL Posts! They are magnetic..:crying:

That being the case I would have to agree on the capacitors..reliably. Using nice wire seemed superfluous without replacing the posts.

The terminations as just as important as your wire. A weak termination will not reliably pass the current. Just like starting your car. Use heavy guage wire for the large current loads like woofers and finer gauge for low current flows like tweeters. Works like a charm.

I used a floor standing drill press and clamped the rear plate down before drilling out the holes.:)

Oops, :eek: I think all the vintage JBL driver posts are dun the same way.:help:

:crying: I want my mummy, I want my mummy.

Gary L

01-05-2007, 02:42 PM

I am hoping that some day soon they make a wire that sounds better then the dam speaker they get hooked to.

About the only argument for wire that is even worth mention is longer distance requires heavier wire.

The couple of feet inside your box could not make enough difference to even bother with as long as it is not damaged or oxidized under the shield or at the connections.

Gary

Thom

01-05-2007, 02:47 PM

The only part of it that really bothers me is the large amount of revenue that changes hands and I can't figure any way to tap even the tiniest percentage of it. Obviously you can't tell anyone what they hear but if the only reason Mac used it was so people could get past tripping on the wire/cable and check out their equipment it must be awfully subtle that they, with a lot of listening and testing didn't see it, and it's kind of like church when you're expected to experience something. Who's going to be the one to say they didn't. And just to keep it about JBL any one who has ever had any experience with the substance that is widely presumed to have bought all the JBL's for the Dead's wall of sound Knows that the brain can tell you anything. The best the wire should be able to do is nothing. Anything more than nothing is not as good. I've never bought expensive wires but we've all bought something to add to our systems that other people are sure couldn't do anything. I don't know if they still exist but you used to see little covers for the telephone earpiece in British HiFi mags. It was to keep it from vibrating sympathetically and downgrading your listening experience. I just wish I could figure out how to get some of that money. When most people had TV antennas and were using 300 ohm twin lead, we were asking a lot more of it than you are of your speaker lead not exactly the same things but look at the frequency and the level of the signal. Even corrosion, except at connections is unlikely to have any effect unless you loose enough of the wires cross section that your effective wire gage becomes to small and the series resistance becomes more than just theoretical. On connections or terminations corrosion becomes very important.

boputnam

01-05-2007, 03:00 PM

There is some truly hilarious stuff on this thread. :duck:
Yeppers, I can see all those electrons putting their little shit waders on to make it that last foot or so. Those poor dumb bastards...

They're supposed to be neat. They're neato.
My personal favorite...
Unfortunately for China there simply aren't enough global resources left to sustain their alledged ascendancy...

And I know that if she weighs the same as a duck she's a witch...

Not big enough for Texas but certainly too big for Rhode Island.

"Wire we still arguin' about this?"

...And just to keep it about JBL any one who has ever had any experience with the substance that is widely presumed to have bought all the JBL's for the Dead's wall of sound... :hmm:

loach71

01-05-2007, 03:23 PM

This thread points to the need for double-blind testing...:blah: :blah:

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 03:49 PM

Now were going into DBT!! Heaven help us!!!!

Rob:)

4313B

01-05-2007, 04:06 PM

This thread points to the need for double-blind testing...:blah: :blah:It's all fun and games until someone loses and eye... then it's just fun...

opimax

01-05-2007, 04:16 PM

That was a good one!! End this thread on it and move to Rolf's thread so we can get the "real" answers...:applaud: or somehow running, scissors, and parents will enter this thread :p

Mark

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 05:03 PM

Well I look at it this way. It's a subjective hobby with lot's of contradictions. In the end all that matters is you have fun and enjoy yourself. If for one guy it's a Bose radio and the other it's a 100K system the end result is the same. We could argue all point's audio till the cows come home but what's important is we all have fun and let the other guy do what he wants to keep himself happy without passing judgement on him.

Rob:)

Thom

01-05-2007, 06:25 PM

This thread points to the need for double-blind testing...:blah: :blah:

Why does this one always take all the fun out of it? If there is someone in the room who doesn't believe, does that skew the results?

It's no worse than homeopathy, but could it be?

I've got it. You take cheap wires and put them in a box with real expensive ones for a while

Zilch

01-05-2007, 06:55 PM

Double-blind testing has been done, and it's linked elsewhere in these forums.

What I find particularly insulting is the suggestion that anyone who can NOT hear the difference either has bad hearing or crappy equipment, or both, and need not participate, since they are clearly not up to the task.

That'd be me, but I offer Zilch Wonder Cable for free, anyway.

[Maybe I'll turn the franchise over to Thom.... :p ]

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 07:29 PM

I don't disagree but if I was asked to offer advice which tends to happen around this place I would not piss the guy around and suggest he spent a weeks wages XYZ cables without reviewing the whole system.

Hello Ian

Sounds like good advice to me.

Rob:)

Robh3606

01-05-2007, 07:40 PM

What I find particularly insulting is the suggestion that anyone who can NOT hear the difference either has bad hearing or crappy equipment, or both, and need not participate, since they are clearly not up to the task.

Well that's one of the reasons these discusions are potentially so inflamatory. That's the easy way out, just like telling the person who said it it's all in his head and he needs to do a DBT. Both positions are extreme and do nothing to add any substance to the conversation.

Rob:)

Tom Brennan

01-05-2007, 07:47 PM

"What I find particularly insulting is the suggestion that anyone who can NOT hear the difference either has bad hearing or crappy equipment, or both, and need not participate, since they are clearly not up to the task."

Which is especially suspect because most of these cableistas claim big differences not subtle ones. One would expect that if it were such a big deal one would easily hear these differences on any gear.

Then there's the fact that most of the people I know who think wires are a big deal have systems I think are lousy anyway, it's the chinless distortion and compression generators they use as speakers they should worry about and not their "interconnects".

Of course one understands that a wire can be designed to effect the sound which brings forth the question why would one do such a thing when equalizers are readily available. But equalizers are an unfashionable and outre way to effect your system's sound but wires that act as EQ are acceptable.

In other words it's as much about fashion as sound.

No one has ever answered me this simple question----if wires are such a BIG deal how did it get by Hilliard, Lansing, Olson, Voight and all those old time guys.

I have a theory about spoiled, self-centered Baby Boomers and the rise of audio lunacy and the change from "hi-fi" to "high end".

edgewound

01-05-2007, 08:16 PM

No one has ever answered me this simple question----if wires are such a BIG deal how did it get by Hilliard, Lansing, Olson, Voight and all those old time guys.

I have a theory about spoiled, self-centered Baby Boomers and the rise of audio lunacy and the change from "hi-fi" to "high end".

I think it didn't get by them...because at the time...the impedances were mostly 16 ohms and not much current output from the tube amps.

Most of the effects from "inferior" speaker cables arose from really high current output solid state amps into very low efficiency, low impedance speakers....that need welding cable for power transfer.

I can't argue too much with your closing line.

That's called marketeering....and selling for dollars what takes pennies to manufacture.

DavidF

01-05-2007, 11:08 PM

...I mean, i dont know why people spend big bucks on speaker cables then have the last foot or so inside the speaker be complete crap...

And don't forget the run from the driver terminals to the voice coil. Haven't heard a speaker company announce break through technology in voice coil leads...yet.

DavidF

moldyoldy

01-06-2007, 12:59 AM

P.T. Barnum's observation that one can fool some of the people some of the time fails to recognize that some people INSIST on being fooled, because they find the evident truth to be tedious and mundane.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

loach71

01-06-2007, 12:36 PM

Why does this one always take all the fun out of it? If there is someone in the room who doesn't believe, does that skew the results?

It's no worse than homeopathy, but could it be?

I've got it. You take cheap wires and put them in a box with real expensive ones for a while

I'm not taking the "fun out of it".... I am simply suggesting the use of a double blind test to remove personal prejudices from the decision matrix. There was no hidden agenda in my comment. Deciding what sounds best without knowing which cable is being used is a defensible test procedure...

Get some audiophile friends together, lay out the cable runs. Add beer and pretzels. Have one person (non-voting) be the cable switcher. Audition selected music at the same levels. Have the non-voting person switch the cables -- and do NOT let the voting persons know which cable is being used. Do this several times. Vote on the results. Let the results point where they may. A simple solution to a complex problem -- and it involves BEER!

Thom

01-06-2007, 12:50 PM

I'm awfully confused as to what side I'm being quoted to, or for, or what. So, I'd just like to say that, double blind testing is probably always a good Idea. If someone really wants to know something, and a method can be devised And, homeopathic cables was a joke, unless someone out there would like to buy some.

loach71

01-06-2007, 01:01 PM

Zilch

01-06-2007, 01:19 PM

loach71

01-06-2007, 01:25 PM

Another option is using CAT5 or CAT6 data cable as speaker wire. Some folks swear by it....:dont-know

Zilch

01-06-2007, 01:49 PM

Another option is using CAT5 or CAT6 data cable as speaker wire. Some folks swear by it....:dont-knowHeh.

Look closely at Ti Dome's pic of Zilch Miracle Cable, Tim. :p

[There's a link to an anti-tribo-electric biased version in the other thread I linked above, as well.... :thmbsup:]

Gary L

01-06-2007, 02:23 PM

I am with thom on this and do appreciate the double blind testing method in all things audio/listener related.

Two of the realities mentioned above always shine thru with DBT.

Some of us like some pretty shitty sounding speakers/wires/systems!

Some of us blow our own horns and can't hear what we are playing!

I find these wire threads rather ammusing and would not want to see them barred from discussions.

Some one pointed out the real facts that if you have the money and think the wires make a difference then the sky is the limit.
Others pointed out that great wire hooked to not so great equipment is an effort in futility.

In my own personal systems the wires are about the last thing I would concentrate any effort on short of useing what most here might consider up to standards for the job. Zip cord does not get it but I am not completely convinced that what I do use is all that much better or that zip cord does not do the job.

What I do find most interesting is that the author of this thread in one instant is pushing his model 19s with a JVC mini all in one system under a 4 ohm load and asking if he may have hurt his speakers and in the very next instant concentrating his efforts on the wires found within the same speakers.

Many of the same posters here got into heated discussions over what damages may have been caused and here we are now discussing what special wires to use inside these speakers.

Here is my take on the entire thread. If you are going to use a complete garbage system to test your new 19s then you could use the tinsel from your christmas tree to connect your speakers and get that job done.

How can one individual know absolutely nothing about amplification and ask a question yet in his next question be dueling with knowledgable members regarding Chip amps and high dollar items such as wires/cables or what ever they might be called?

Wasted time!!!!!

Gary

loach71

01-06-2007, 02:56 PM

Wire, wire everywhere but nary and electron to sink!:banghead:

Time for me to strip some CAT5 data cable and build some Zilch Miracle Audio Cables (tm). Maybe with some beer and pretzels I will arrive at some sort of definitive answer...;) If anything, it will be fun!

SEAWOLF97

01-06-2007, 04:45 PM

Wire, wire everywhere but nary and electron to sink!

The rime of the ancient listener ????

loach71

01-06-2007, 04:54 PM

Avast ye swabs - prepare to be cabled! :D

Ian Mackenzie

01-06-2007, 05:28 PM

I know, I know, but I did receive an inquiry, and it IS on topic:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72204#post72204

It's measureably better above 1 kHz on WT2.

I use it on M/HF compression drivers when I'm not too lazy to make some up and I think it counts, like on the TOTL project, probably.

It's cheap. :thmbsup:

Edit: Here's a fun thread on the subject I found while looking for that link:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5599

Gets the post of the day award. Great links too.

The relative merit of better drivers is obvious. That is why I said earlier that using better cables in the vintage stuff was a "shine on" when the freakin signal goes through a 3/16 steal bolt and the internal losses are like 1/2 an ohm and you have a bunch of old tired innards. It's a freakin joke they work at all. I think Porschedpm will attest to the improvement ripping out the whole messing and starting over makes. I recall we used Cardas binding posts and Welbourne Labs teflon coated wire. That was fun.:)

4313B

01-06-2007, 05:36 PM

the freakin signal goes through a 3/16 steal boltAnd that's exactly why I upgraded to a 13/64 grade 8 steel bolt...

Zilch

01-06-2007, 05:45 PM

The relative merit of better drivers is obvious. That is why I said earlier that using better cables in the vintage stuff was a "shine on" when the freakin signal goes through a 3/16 steal bolt and the internal losses are like 1/2 an ohm and you have a bunch of old tired innards. It's a freakin joke they work at all.Ain't that the truth!!

Add the corrosion on the cheap-ass switches to that, too.

I've "repaired" enough vintage crossovers to have learned a total rebuild is typically required. May as well start from scratch with all new components and a better design wherever possible....

Frankly, I think everyone should buy ZMC, wire all their crap with it, and give it a rest. :yes:DRAT! Now I'll have to start chargin' for it.... ;)

Tom Brennan

01-06-2007, 08:29 PM

Is there something wrong with the signal passing through a steel binding post? If so what?

Hoerninger

01-07-2007, 05:08 AM

Anybody mentioned Burn In?
http://www.hagtech.com/frybaby.htm

This scientifically designed waveform comprises a wideband gaussian noise source that is amplitude modulated by a low frequency swept triangle wave, thus providing complete audio (and then some) bandwidth burn without any fixed frequency components.
All together something like hiss, isn't it? :banghead:

I prefer to listen to music ... have there been any changes in my cables? :blah:
____________
Peter

spwal

01-07-2007, 10:04 AM

There is some truly hilarious stuff on this thread. :duck:

My personal favorite...

:hmm:

lmfao

Zilch

01-07-2007, 11:10 AM

Is there something wrong with the signal passing through a steel binding post? If so what?Conductivity, but more significantly, susceptibility to corrosion, and ulitmately, rust.

4313B

01-07-2007, 11:13 AM

Conductivity, but more significantly, susceptibility to corrosion, and ulitmately, rust.Wow! Sounds like you need to go wireless. No pun intended.

Rolf

01-07-2007, 11:18 AM

This (Cable stuff) has been discussed over and over again, and no conclusion has ever been made.

I have decided to make a new thread about this in the General forum.

My conclusion is: Those of you who can not hear any difference of different cables: Stay out of the thread. Those who can hear differences: Welcome, and let us discuss different cables.

Hi Friends.

I just got a PM, and from that I want to tell those of you that feel offended by my "way with words", I am sorry. I am not an expert in the English language, and sometimes I guess I do not express myself the way I want to.

It was not my intention to offend anybody. What I want is to discuss this in a serious way, not just be "blown off" like an idiot with statements that indicate this.

Once again, I am sorry if somebody is offended. Everybody who want to discuss this in an serious way is of course welcome to the other thread.

4313B

01-07-2007, 11:23 AM

Once again, I am sorry if somebody is offended. Everybody who want to discuss this in an serious way is of course welcome to the other thread.:hmm: I thought this was settled already? You really need to get hooked up with some ZWC.

No, I'm not kidding.

I'm serious.

Robh3606

01-07-2007, 11:31 AM

Send me a copy of the PM

Rob:)

Thom

01-07-2007, 11:44 AM

Conductivity, but more significantly, susceptibility to corrosion, and ulitmately, rust.

When comparing the conductivity of steel to copper it helps to know the gage of each. In other words a 3/8 steel, or even stainless, bolt probably conducts better, or has less resistance, than 12 ga wire. I didn't use a chart but I think I'm safe. And where did you find the copper that doesn't corrode? I'd like some of that. On the other hand if you're speaking of the corrosion of the dissimilar metals, never mind. Chances are that once again I'll wish I hadn't posted.

If you get very aggressive with most binding posts you'll discover that they are not made of steel. Plated brass is most common.

Ian Mackenzie

01-07-2007, 11:55 AM

I was also serious about steel bolts. High quality parts like capacitors and resisters and transisters use OFC copper leads and tinned not steel. You can here the difference if you want to. How many steel binding posts are on the market? None but people can do as they please as do manufacturers. People who choose to ignore things or don't want to know probably have a closed mind when it comes to their listening skills.

I mean I heard one guy around here who refuses to believe one amplifier can sound different to the other if it measures the same. That's a much harder nut to crack than cables. I am not offended and life goes on.

Its not a topic that you can expect serious response from everyone. An individual is entitled to accept or express what they like.

That said I think the average person knows when their chain is being pulled. I mean why spend $1000 on 6 foot python cable then the wire inside the amp going to the pcb is 16 gauge. That is why I posted the earlier images but no one got it.

You might find different attitudes on some of the hi end forums.

moldyoldy

01-07-2007, 12:07 PM

.....snip....Once again, I am sorry if somebody is offended.

Don't sweat it man, anyone that binds disagreement to dislike needs to grow up. I think the resentment expressed on this topic is towards the (perceived) ripoff artists that get rich selling products of dubious merit for outlandish prices, rather than at the people that use them.

Zilch

01-07-2007, 12:12 PM

When comparing the conductivity of steel to copper it helps to know the gage of each. In other words a 3/8 steel, or even stainless, bolt probably conducts better, or has less resistance, than 12 ga wire.It's #6-32 screws, as I recall, and while the distance through the stepped fibre insulating washers and panel is short (3/16" approximately,) the real problems develop with corrosion over time.

In the worst cases, I remove the screws and see that the threads completing the contact with the binding post are actually rusted, the heads and solder terminals covered with powdery corrosion, the plating eaten through.

So, I replace with all new, use stainless screws after considering and opting out on purchasing a stock of brass ones, and call it "Done." JBLn's got the right idea - gut them and reuse the boxes if you want to retain the vintage looks.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10712

Edit: Note the corrosion on the switch mounting standoffs in the pic there. That's representative of the condition of the typical internal binding post connections before reworking them.

Mr. Widget

01-07-2007, 12:21 PM

My conclusion is: Those of you who can not hear any difference of different cables: Stay out of the thread. Those who can hear differences: Welcome, and let us discuss different cables.That's a good policy... kind of like when we were children and were told not to blow the Santa Claus story for the younger kids.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:duck:

Carry on.

Widget

mikebake

01-07-2007, 12:57 PM

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/funkenbrown/image0077777.jpg (http://photobucket.com/)

Robh3606

01-07-2007, 01:01 PM

Mike!!

That's a good one :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Rob:D

4313B

01-07-2007, 01:03 PM

Nice Mike...:applaud:

In the worst cases, I remove the screws and see that the threads completing the contact with the binding post are actually rusted, the heads and solder terminals covered with powdery corrosion, the plating eaten through.Must be that sea air...

JBLn's got the right idea - gut them and reuse the boxes if you want to retain the vintage looks.SOP for the last 30 years... the stock boxes were nothing more than groovy to look at, back then.

Ian Mackenzie

01-07-2007, 01:54 PM

It just came to me that the case of steel screws / bolts and putting in your larger 8 gauge might fowl a nice vintage network where those inductors are in close proximity. I had a steel bolt on the bench the other day the other day and it blew the inductance measurement to hell.

mikebake

01-07-2007, 02:06 PM

Clarity.

Hoerninger

01-07-2007, 02:10 PM

... and it blew the inductance measurement to hell.
Good to know. I've always feared it, I've always avoided steel for precaution.
__________
Peter

Ian Mackenzie

01-07-2007, 02:12 PM

So tell us about Sunday School.

4313B

01-07-2007, 02:32 PM

I had a steel bolt on the bench the other day the other day and it blew the inductance measurement to hell.I just set an inductor on a wood shelf but there was a metal brace beneath it and just the proximity changed the value from 1.02 mH to 1.13 mH.

4313B

01-07-2007, 02:33 PM

Clarity.Well, there you have it! Thanks Mike! :)

spkrman57

01-07-2007, 03:42 PM

When I used to search for older vintage speakers, I used to get excited with the white(or sometimes other colors depending on the metals used) powder on the hookup terminals.

My friend used to ask why? I explained that the speakers were driven with tube amps and more likely than not were not over driven in their past.

Ron

Tom Brennan

01-07-2007, 05:06 PM

I want to know what kind of steel has the best sound. Mild steel? Stainless? Inconel?

We could do experiments using different welding rods (wires) of various alloys and sizes.

Does 5/32 7018 sound better than 1/8 9018? Does Lincoln brand rod sound better than Arcalloy?

Is there a connection between how smooth a rod runs and how smooth it sounds? 7018 might sound better than 6010 then.

Will stainless rod sound "brighter"?

Did Olson study this?

spwal

01-07-2007, 07:47 PM

Gary,

I think this was somewhat uncalled for. I have since hooked up the Altec 19 to my NAD reciever. I am thinking about next steps. I was wondering if i had done ay damage to the speakers by using the JVC, i think the answer was no, and certainly the speakers sound great. The JVC is water under the bridge and I assure you that these altecs will work just fine with even lower powered amps than the JVC>

Gary, I am thinking about next steps here. I opened up the speakers and agree with consensus -- the hook up wire in there doesnt look great. It looks like the quality equivalent of the binding posts. I think that consensus on the binding posts is that they are complete shit. Therefore the hook up wire is shit.

My point was, if i am going to do the capacitors (because i believe in capacitor upgrades, but more importantly becuase these speakers are 30 years old and capacitors have a finite lifespan), then I may as well change the hook up wire.

I was asking for knowledgeable advice from fellow forum members who have done just this procedure.

So far, i am getting some great feedback here... feedback that will determine my future course of action.

I am not new to audio Gary. I have owned some very, very nice gear.

I have never been one to spend large amounts of money on speaker wire either, so we are in agreement there. I will however, spend a good chunk of change on some caps and posts and hookup wire to "do it right", because im only going to do it once.

What i do want to know, is exactly what kind of hookup wire people have used when they either built there own speakers or freshened up a vintage pair.

I am sorry that you have somehow been rubbed the wrong way by me or others in the discussion.

Thanks

I am with thom on this and do appreciate the double blind testing method in all things audio/listener related.

Two of the realities mentioned above always shine thru with DBT.

Some of us like some pretty shitty sounding speakers/wires/systems!

Some of us blow our own horns and can't hear what we are playing!

I find these wire threads rather ammusing and would not want to see them barred from discussions.

Some one pointed out the real facts that if you have the money and think the wires make a difference then the sky is the limit.
Others pointed out that great wire hooked to not so great equipment is an effort in futility.

In my own personal systems the wires are about the last thing I would concentrate any effort on short of useing what most here might consider up to standards for the job. Zip cord does not get it but I am not completely convinced that what I do use is all that much better or that zip cord does not do the job.

What I do find most interesting is that the author of this thread in one instant is pushing his model 19s with a JVC mini all in one system under a 4 ohm load and asking if he may have hurt his speakers and in the very next instant concentrating his efforts on the wires found within the same speakers.

Many of the same posters here got into heated discussions over what damages may have been caused and here we are now discussing what special wires to use inside these speakers.

Here is my take on the entire thread. If you are going to use a complete garbage system to test your new 19s then you could use the tinsel from your christmas tree to connect your speakers and get that job done.

How can one individual know absolutely nothing about amplification and ask a question yet in his next question be dueling with knowledgable members regarding Chip amps and high dollar items such as wires/cables or what ever they might be called?

Wasted time!!!!!

Gary

Thom

01-07-2007, 09:30 PM

I mean I heard one guy around here who refuses to believe one amplifier can sound different to the other if it measures the same. That's a much harder nut to crack than cables. I am not offended and life goes on.

I'm inclined to believe that this is true. When you have what appears to be an exception to this, what you probably have is proof of something wrong with the measurement system. Perhaps a spec that we haven't thought to measure yet. Perhaps an error in the way we take some measurement. So, I'm not saying that you can tell, currently, from reading two spec sheets that two amps will sound exactly alike, I believe that if the electrical signal, or you might want to call it more than signal, after all there is quite a bit of power involved, is the same, it will sound the same. I refuse to believe in magic.

Isn't it interesting that some of the same people who 30 years ago were paying premium prices for Lp's that had been digitally mastered today are all about analog. I didn't say right or wrong, I just said isn't it interesting.

Thom

01-07-2007, 09:38 PM

My personal taste in speaker wire changes from time to time. Seams to depend on what was available at work at the time. But 2ga leads are really tough on amplifiers and speakers. Finally had to go to 10 ga about 2 ft from each end but have you ever soldered 10 ga to 2 ga ? At least the speaker quit falling over. Some one's probably going to tell me that's way to many electrons to try to move that fast anyway. Might work for the sub but that's about it.

Ian Mackenzie

01-07-2007, 10:57 PM

The marketing department is inclined to tell the hoards how to think. From what we see from time to time I think that is the best way to go.

The reality is that Dcr of the cable is only one aspect of what happens..the conductivity of an element varies under dynamic conditions and with frequency. The cable and its reactance is attached in effect to the negative feedback return node of the amplfier. Depending on the amp design the amplifier will react to the cable and its electrical properties just as amps react to loudspeaker loads. Some amps have better transient and stability margin than others and this is points to some of the issues.

Given all the different amps and cables and loudspeakers no two listeners are likely to hear or detect the same effects.

The better amps and the better cables tend to have less interaction.

What is why its hard to determine if its the amp or the cable that is changing what you may think is a difference.

Hope that makes sense.

Ian

I'm inclined to believe that this is true. When you have what appears to be an exception to this, what you probably have is proof of something wrong with the measurement system. Perhaps a spec that we haven't thought to measure yet. Perhaps an error in the way we take some measurement. So, I'm not saying that you can tell, currently, from reading two spec sheets that two amps will sound exactly alike, I believe that if the electrical signal, or you might want to call it more than signal, after all there is quite a bit of power involved, is the same, it will sound the same. I refuse to believe in magic.

Isn't it interesting that some of the same people who 30 years ago were paying premium prices for Lp's that had been digitally mastered today are all about analog. I didn't say right or wrong, I just said isn't it interesting.

Rolf

01-08-2007, 01:18 AM

:hmm: I thought this was settled already? You really need to get hooked up with some ZWC.

No, I'm not kidding.

I'm serious.

ZWC???:blink:

Ian Mackenzie

01-08-2007, 04:48 AM

I just set an inductor on a wood shelf but there was a metal brace beneath it and just the proximity changed the value from 1.02 mH to 1.13 mH.

Really. Well you know those voltage drives we were looking at the other day, the HF bandpass went completely mental. Those little air cores are quite sensitive little suckers. They freaking hate steel bolts.

Ian

Gary L

01-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Gary,

I think this was somewhat uncalled for. I have since hooked up the Altec 19 to my NAD reciever. I am thinking about next steps. I was wondering if i had done ay damage to the speakers by using the JVC, i think the answer was no, and certainly the speakers sound great. The JVC is water under the bridge and I assure you that these altecs will work just fine with even lower powered amps than the JVC>

Gary, I am thinking about next steps here. I opened up the speakers and agree with consensus -- the hook up wire in there doesnt look great. It looks like the quality equivalent of the binding posts. I think that consensus on the binding posts is that they are complete shit. Therefore the hook up wire is shit.

My point was, if i am going to do the capacitors (because i believe in capacitor upgrades, but more importantly becuase these speakers are 30 years old and capacitors have a finite lifespan), then I may as well change the hook up wire.

I was asking for knowledgeable advice from fellow forum members who have done just this procedure.

So far, i am getting some great feedback here... feedback that will determine my future course of action.

I am not new to audio Gary. I have owned some very, very nice gear.

I have never been one to spend large amounts of money on speaker wire either, so we are in agreement there. I will however, spend a good chunk of change on some caps and posts and hookup wire to "do it right", because im only going to do it once.

What i do want to know, is exactly what kind of hookup wire people have used when they either built there own speakers or freshened up a vintage pair.

I am sorry that you have somehow been rubbed the wrong way by me or others in the discussion.

Thanks

My point is I believe you are putting the horse after the carriage!
It makes sense to seek and find good wire while you are in there and replace it. What makes little sense to me is that wire should be of any concern until you have gone thru all the many other pieces in the signal path.
I simply feel that many other areas deserve more concern before we discuss designer wires.
In my own personal systems I use good quality interconnects and speaker wires yet there are many other areas I would look in before I get to where I feel special wires will make any difference.
When the day is done, you can tweek every piece in your system and still find someone here to tell you where you went wrong or right.
If you have some money then spend it where it will do the most good. If you have unlimited funds then why even bother with 30 year old speakers that were built with inferior products and are already old.
I have been around here long enough to know that if you listen to everyone here you will be switching to JBL LF drivers, upgrading or switching out the XOs and probably changing the HF horns and drivers as well. The one thing you won't have in the end is Model 19s.

Gary

spwal

01-08-2007, 10:14 AM

I am on the way to rat shack to buy some deoxit. I think thats a good place to start :).

Then im gonna get things cleaned up (though they look pretty clean) then play with the L pads as per pauls suggestion to get to know these speakers a little better.

thanks

spwal

Titanium Dome

01-08-2007, 10:16 AM

(snip)
If you have some money then spend it where it will do the most good. If you have unlimited funds then why even bother with 30 year old speakers that were built with inferior products and are already old.
I have been around here long enough to know that if you listen to everyone here you will be switching to JBL LF drivers, upgrading or switching out the XOs and probably changing the HF horns and drivers as well. The one thing you won't have in the end is Model 19s.

Gary

Without making any direct reference to the particular topic of this thread, that's a whole lot of truth in those final statements. :yes: Good and bad...

spwal

01-08-2007, 10:20 AM

nopers, couldnt agree with gary more. I want to bring out the best in these speakers. To make a highfalutened analogy... a good decanter will bring out the best of a wine, while preserving the wine.

i certainly dont want to mod these to death... just servicing where i think it would be most apporpriate.

30 year old crossovers probably should be looked into..

Zilch

01-08-2007, 10:30 AM

ZWC???:blink:http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=142100#post142100

Then im gonna get things cleaned up (though they look pretty clean) then play with the L pads as per pauls suggestion to get to know these speakers a little better.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12305&page=4

Titanium Dome

01-08-2007, 10:39 AM

Yes, I believe by right of first naming, it's ZMC, or as I christened it in the Performance Series thread, Zilch Miracle Cable. :D

It works very, very well.

Thom

01-08-2007, 10:42 AM

The marketing department is inclined to tell the hoards how to think. From what we see from time to time I think that is the best way to go.

The reality is that Dcr of the cable is only one aspect of what happens..the conductivity of an element varies under dynamic conditions and with frequency. The cable and its reactance is attached in effect to the negative feedback return node of the amplfier. Depending on the amp design the amplifier will react to the cable and its electrical properties just as amps react to loudspeaker loads. Some amps have better transient and stability margin than others and this is points to some of the issues.

Given all the different amps and cables and loudspeakers no two listeners are likely to hear or detect the same effects.

The better amps and the better cables tend to have less interaction.

What is why its hard to determine if its the amp or the cable that is changing what you may think is a difference.

Hope that makes sense.

Ian

If there is anybody one should be wary of trusting in all of these companies, it is the marketing dept. I think any honest engineer if he were sure it wouldn't get back would say so.

Who separates the better cables from the most expensive cables?

At the risk of informing the already informed, There is a world of difference between bringing ferrous metal close to an inductor which any tech who has gone out and bought a plastic tweaker knows will change the inductance of a coil and using steal as a conductor.

Thom

01-08-2007, 10:44 AM

moldyoldy

01-08-2007, 11:18 AM

I long for the day when electrolytics have the equivalent expected shelf life as this topic.....

4313B

01-08-2007, 11:39 AM

Yes, I believe by right of first naming, it's ZMC, or as I christened it in the Performance Series thread, Zilch Miracle Cable. :D

It works very, very well.It's been around for years and years though. I myself use Monster Cable's CAT5. The price was perfect. It was free.

I also use Monster Special as found in the Ti Series. Monster Cable saw fit to give me an entire spool of each color years ago. Those spools were also free.

For really tough jobs I use the Monster Cable battery jumper cables. They remain flexible even when it's well below zero. :p

Zilch

01-08-2007, 11:57 AM

"Free" is also a major factor at ZilchLab, and there are measurable and theoretical (and to some, hearable) advantages to using it for mid and high frequencies.

I thusly acquired a leftover 1000 ft. spool of Cat5e at a jobsite. When that runs out, I'll probably try some of the teflon-insulated (or whatever insulator they're using now) plenum version for a better dielectric....

John

01-08-2007, 12:00 PM

Why? Just throw them in the trashcan and buy
Big as Texas Posts

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/ACCESSORIES.html

:bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:
I could not agree more, Why do you guys hang on to this old crap like terminals when it is a no brainer to upgrade???

Make up your mind, do you want good sound or are you caught up in this mindset of keeping everything factory??? If you want to keep it factory correct then accept the reality of these ancient terminals.:banghead:

Mr. Widget

01-08-2007, 12:02 PM

For really tough jobs I use the Monster Cable battery jumper cables...Sonically there is nothing special about Monster Cable it is just good old copper, but in general they do use nice jacket material... and this is important. It makes the wire easier to use and it's well protected.

Many of their interconnects are not so great though... and their connectors are not very good.

Their pricing is usually monstrous... free is always good though. :D

Widget

hjames

01-08-2007, 12:04 PM

"Free" is also a major factor at ZilchLab, and there are measurable and theoretical advantages to using it.

I acquired a leftover 1000 ft. spool at a jobsite. When that runs out, I'll probably try some of the teflon-insulated plenum version for a better dielectric....

So - correct me if I am wrong. You take standard Cat5 cable the length you need from the Amp to the Speaker, strip back the jacket at each end - strip a bit of insulation at each end of the conductors and twisted the leads together.

What's the plan -
all the solids go together for one conductor,
and all the stripes tie together for the other?

Its a kind of weirdly twisted stranded cable, right?

Mr. Widget

01-08-2007, 12:05 PM

When that runs out, I'll probably try some of the teflon-insulated plenum version for a better dielectric....All of the Cat5 based speaker wires will have higher capacitance than some systems would like... personally I'd avoid it unless you just can't stand the idea of keeping it simple with good old 14-12ga.

Widget

Zilch

01-08-2007, 12:13 PM

Hi, Heather.

Yes, basically. For M/HF, you use a single cable with the solids and stripes separated at the ends and soldered together to make two conductors. The twisting within the cable does the "Wonder" part, along with the increased surface area of the isolated (insulated) small (24-26 ga, typical) conductors.

For LF, there's other solutions. A single Cat5(e) cable doesn't have enough cross-sectional conductor area for big woofer current in anything but very short runs.

Mileage may vary.... :p

Here installed on Z19 biased crossover:

Thom

01-08-2007, 01:44 PM

My previous posts have indicated that while mine doesn't have to be free it helps if someone else pays for it. For long runs or if one is worried about capacitance I believe one cable for red and one for black should take care of that. Somehow I think if they are able to transmit data on it at 1gig then the capacitance probably isn't too bad but it's easily measurable unless like me you need a finger from each hand to reply to this thread.

4313B

01-08-2007, 02:11 PM

Their pricing is usually monstrous...:rotfl: Yeppers, they're pretty proud of that stuff.

4313B

01-08-2007, 02:14 PM

For LF, there's other solutions. A single Cat5(e) cable doesn't have enough cross-sectional conductor area for big woofer current in anything but very short runs.People have gone nuts with the stuff and made braided cables out of CAT5. Evidently there are even braiding machines now for the truly commited (commitable?).

Zilch

01-08-2007, 02:49 PM

This General Cable "riser rated" Category 5e cable is 4 pair 24 ga.

Nominal 0.511 mm conductor diameter = 0.2051 mm^2 cross-sectional area.

Four conductors then = 0.8203 mm^2.

That makes it equivalent to 18 ga, which is 0.8171 mm^2.

And has 0.006385 Ohms/foot resistance.

Doubling it up makes ~15 ga, 0.003184 Ohms/foot.

Source: Belden Cable Master Catalog Technical Reference

People have gone nuts with the stuff and made braided cables out of CAT5. Evidently there are even braiding machines now for the truly commited (commitable?).Most I'd do is buy 8- or 10-pair, if available, and work with that, probably.

[It's enough PITA untwisting and terminating the ends as is.... :biting: ]

4313B

01-08-2007, 03:47 PM

Here's one. :p

I didn't read through it. I don't have time. Someone can read it and comment.

http://www.venhaus1.com/diycatfivecables.html

And another one:

http://www.mejiatryti.com/SpeakerCable/fivebraid.html

And another:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/6581.html

Anyway, that should keep someone off the streets for awhile. :D

Thom

01-08-2007, 04:10 PM

I didn't know people really, but I shouldn't be surprised. As soon as I get these covers over the earpieces on my telephones, the sympathetic vibrations are driving me crazy, I'll have to look into that.

Ian Mackenzie

01-08-2007, 05:56 PM

hjames

01-08-2007, 06:39 PM

Zilch,

Its basically a poor Man's Kimber Cable. I recall Drew Daniels did a similar trick for PC rainbow bus wire..

Interesting idea and as you say cheap.

Another idea is to grab some 50 ohm TV coax and pull out the core conductor (not easy) so you have a hollow core with the braided shield being the conductor. The contention is the geometry of the hollow core is better for signal transmission. Some high quality cables use this construction. Two lengths required per run.

Ian

I dunno about the function of this.
I used to work in cable TV and we used microwave links to feed 64 channels signals to our remote hubs. At the 2.4gHz frequencies we used, once the transmitters were mixed together, the combined signal ran on waveguide, which is like copper tubing of very specific diameter. At those frequencies, due to "skin effect" where the signals tended to run on the outer edge of the conductor, you didn't use a solid copper transmission line, you only needed the outer edge of the conductor - hence, waveguide.
That kind of stuf is so far beyond audible its not funny. You won't hear it at all, but if its too powerful, it might "cook" you!

But thats at true UHF (UltraHigh Freq - 2.6gHz), not anywhere near in the audio band.

Ian Mackenzie

01-08-2007, 08:35 PM

I don't know what the reasoning is in this application. I think Mogani use it in their cables.

http://www.mogamicable.com/cab_assemblies/goldassambl_links/goldseries_assemblies.html

Speaker Cables
Truly a high definition speaker cable. Oxygen free-copper, wound in a unique coaxial configuration specifically for the power amp to speaker interface. Faithfully transfers every detail, at any sound or power level, while rejecting noise transfer into or out of the cable. Typical comment: "Sounds like I took a blanket off my speakers".

Rolf

01-09-2007, 12:47 AM

Some of us (like me) with non soldering skills have to buy a manufactured product. It should also be nice to know how you who make your own cables avoid corroding in the cable after the terminal plugs has been attached.

loach71

01-09-2007, 03:11 AM

Rolf

01-09-2007, 08:24 AM

I use CRAMOLIN cleaner and preservative on all corrosion-sensitive electrical contacts.

Does that stop the ... not sure in English ... destruction of the end(s) of the cable, and it's ability to go further and further, inc by inc (over time) in the cable? Especially on silver cables?

That is why it is so important (and as far as I know expencive, take some very expensive equipment to stop this) do this right.

loach71

01-09-2007, 09:17 AM

It is a 2 part process Rolf - cleaner and preservative. It is made by CAIG Laboratories. Yes, it does work!
CAIG has upgraded CRAMOLIN ot a new product called DeOXiT.

http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.1/.f

Roddyama

01-09-2007, 05:21 PM

4313B

01-09-2007, 05:43 PM

:applaud: I remember those days...

loach71

01-09-2007, 06:13 PM

:applaud: I remember those days...
I initially thought CRAMOLIN was just snake-oil. The vendor gave me a satisfaction or money back guarantee. It worked - and it cleaned and preserved all sorts of electrical contacts. The key is to use this stuff sparingly.

BMWCCA

01-09-2007, 08:04 PM

A small-dose two-part aerosol "twin-pack" set of DeoxIT and DeoxIT ProGold has been available at most Radio Shack stores for a year or more. Not cheap ($15) but cheaper than what Caig gets on-line ($20) and without charges for small-order shipping. It even worked on a spark plug connector on an M44 BMW engine recently. I use it more for automotive than Hi-Fi, but maybe I'll change my behavior!
http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2266609w345.jpg

Roddyama

01-09-2007, 08:08 PM

Ian in his post points out the issues that can arise with from the interactions between some exotic cables and some amplifiers if this interface is ignored. There are a couple of real life horror stories to validate this position.

The marketing department is inclined to tell the hoards how to think. From what we see from time to time I think that is the best way to go.

The reality is that Dcr of the cable is only one aspect of what happens..the conductivity of an element varies under dynamic conditions and with frequency. The cable and its reactance is attached in effect to the negative feedback return node of the amplfier. Depending on the amp design the amplifier will react to the cable and its electrical properties just as amps react to loudspeaker loads. Some amps have better transient and stability margin than others and this is points to some of the issues.

Given all the different amps and cables and loudspeakers no two listeners are likely to hear or detect the same effects.

The better amps and the better cables tend to have less interaction.

What is why its hard to determine if its the amp or the cable that is changing what you may think is a difference.

Hope that makes sense.

Ian

If you pay attention to the basic parameters of a piece of wire, it's not too difficult to select the wire that will get you well past the knee of the performance vs $$ curve. The article by Nelson Pass for Speaker Builder Magazine in the 80's covers those basics (impedence, capacitance, and inductance) pretty well.

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

spwal

01-09-2007, 08:26 PM

Thom

01-09-2007, 09:34 PM

People hear of skin effect at the frequencies you spoke of and think it applies to all electrical transmission and that's where some of the weird stuff comes from. I don't really understand induction of a straight single conductor. I don't have an EE or anything but people trying to sell kimber cable are the only ones I've ever heard speak of it. I know that when you take a lead for a large motor through metal plate you always take all three phases through the same hole. If you need more than one hole you divide them up and all three phases go through each hole you don't put A through 1 hole B through another etc. but that's just when you are going through a panel which you could look at like a core and the wire going through as 1 turn. If the current is high enough it can cause serious trouble. I've never heard of anyone being concerned of inductance of one conductor alone. It wouldn't be the first thing I didn't know about but I'm real sceptical and I don't understand how kimber cable is supposed to take care of it. Monster cable is easy to understand. The clear insulation makes the 12 ga wire look like 8 and how can you resist that.
I didn't quite understand what was supposed to happen to silver cable to damage it. I've always been led to believe that silver oxide was a better conductor than silver and that was one of the reasons it is so popular in contacts, that and the fact that it is very difficult to get it to weld to itself.

Roddyama

01-09-2007, 10:51 PM

Go through the article I linked to in my previous post. It's geared toward a general readership so it's not hard for the non-EE type to get some good basic information from.

The 2 main issues to contend with in selecting speaker cables are the interface to the amplifier and the filtering effects of the wire/cables basic electrical parameters. The idea that skin effect, grain orientation, et al, having major sonic implecations I feel fall into the catagory of marketing hype. The affects those phenomenon may have (I don't deny the fact they exist) would be way beyond the knee of the performance vs $$ curve as to make them unreasonably priced. There are no silver bullets in this hobby/profession.

I would have to say that any commercially available amplifier will be able to safely drive speakers through the standard "zip cord" whatever the gauge or any similar type stranded copper cable. This type wire/cable, in my mind, will get you to the 95% point in performance in most situations. And certainly for anything below 2 or 3kHz it will be completely sufficient.

It's when you're playing back the upper octaves that the cable design can have the biggest affect on the sound and even than, in most cases the affects will be subtle.

Every cable has inductance and capacitance and therefore presents an impedance to the amplifier driving it. These will affect the upper sonic frequencies directly (as a filter) or indirectly (by sometimes causing large or small instabilities in the amplifier circuit creating distortions of varying type). Zip cord type wire/cable will have less capacitance as shown in Nelson's article and will again, probably get you 95% of the way to top performance in most cases. But as can be seen as well in Nelson's article, inductance will began to affect the top octave so you will want to try to minimize that as well.

I bought one set of cables which I paid under $3/ft for 25 years ago that I still use today (the Mogami coax mentioned in Nelson's article) for my upper range drivers. I've experimented with different cables for hook up in xovers on the top (always very short lengths) but I've always used the zip cord / monster cable type cables on my mids and bass speakers.

WRT steel bolts for through box conductors, I feel its not a good idea. Steel is not a very good conductor and is very inductive. Brass and copper bolts can be easily obtained so there is certainly no reason to use steel conductors and than worry about what cables you use. There are also a number of long binding post that can be obtained from any number of audio parts supply houses on the internet.

moldyoldy

01-09-2007, 10:51 PM

Hi Rodd /everyone,

I have these cables. I have linked their specs... do you think they will match well? I have them twisted around 3 twists a foot. For those of you not familiar they are very stff, like a soft coat hanger. people love em... i think they are great, with my friends cables edging them out interms of some more holographic effect that i dont understand, but they have big packs on them and they cost 1500 bucks... some kind of MIT shotgun cable.

anyway here is the techspec on what i have:

http://www.anticables.com/technical.html

thanks

Well, let's see, compared to common 12 guage, clear PVC insulated, garden variety zip cord that sells for around 50 cents per foot, your new cable (in the twisted configuration) has 2.19 times the resistance and a whopping 2.75 times the capacitance.....:(

At $25 for a one foot stereo pair, I'd have to call the anticable sellers the clear winner on this deal (meaning you loose) by a factor of about 30 to 1 (your cost), not to mention shipping or their super-expensive terminations.:( :(

By comparing the specs and ignoring the hype, you can easily choose a product that gives you the best bang for the buck. Good products need no hype (or salesmen, for that matter). If you don't understand the specs and know how to make the necessary conversions, LEARN. If that's too much trouble, a basic rule can serve you in most cases;

If the ads have lengthy descriptive sections making varied claims as to why this product is superior to all others, and in comparison, only brief or hard-to-find detailed specs, secure your billfold and RUN LIKE THE WIND. :scoot: If you have any compassion for others like yourself, throw a match on the way out.

(Added edit) In today's hi-tech world where nearly every industry and activity depends on data xfer and communication over wire at one or more points, if any developement occurs that signifigantly improves the process, it will be on the front page of every paper, and the lead story in every broadcast, and those responsible for such an achievement can look forward to a fortune that'll make Bill Gates look like a pauper.

moldyoldy

01-10-2007, 09:16 AM

Having long been a member of the objective camp, I agree with the old proven rhetoric that stated common copper wire of sufficient guage for the application presented sufficiently low values of L,C, and R in the amp to speaker connection that further reduction of those values is largely inaudible. I also accepted the resultant assumption that claims of improved system response by using expensive, boutique speaker cables were imagined and dismissable, based largely on cable sellers claims that ultra-low LCR values they had achieved were the reason for improvement.

After comparing values between "wire" and spawl's new cables and learning that these particular cables actually have higher RC values than "wire", and letting that revelation stew overnight, I had to revise my thinking.

Knowing that increased values of L,C, or R in the speaker line will cause noticeable change in system response, one has to admit that, at least in spawl's example, a noticeable change is possible, though whether for the better or worse is system dependant and also subjective. Tweak enough systems, and you'll eventually find some that have an undeniable improvement from increased L/C/R. Never again will I randomly dismiss such claims as "I just installed $1K XYZ speaker cables and the improvement is amazing".

Does this mean all botique cables will produce a noticeable change? Of course not.

Does this mean I endorse the use of expensive speaker cables? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Even though some will cause a noticeable change, and a few may actually be an improvement (system dependant), the same results (or better) can be achieved with "wire" and the appropriate inexpensive resistor (and/or possibly capacitor).

Well-engineered speakers are far less likely to be improved by any speaker-line mod, but engineers can't predict which amp will be used, so even some of the best components in certain unpredictable combinations could have noticeable change, or even improvement, by juggling speakerline LCR.

spwal

01-10-2007, 08:43 PM

Kinda puts things in perspective

Speaker Leads After the amplifier, we have the speaker lead itself. This has become (for reasons which I must confess I find entirely obscure) a subject of great controversy. There is actually nothing controversial about a piece of wire, despite the manufacturer's assertions to the contrary.
The purpose of the speaker lead is to carry the output current from the amp to the loudspeaker, preferably with as little power loss as possible. This implies that the lead should be capable of carrying currents of perhaps 5 amps or so for a distance of typically 2 metres. This is hardly a difficult task - the mains lead to a 2400W electric heater carries a continuous current of 10 Amps (assuming 240V operation), and usually manages this with little loss. The house wiring manages to carry this current from the switchboard through to the power outlet for far greater distances, still with relatively little loss. Then, of course, there's the cable run between the switchboard and the power station - ????

Ian Mackenzie

01-10-2007, 11:17 PM

Rod has some great articles but I doubt he listens too much to what he designs.

About 20 years ago I owned what I would call a Midfi system: A Quad 405 amp, a pair of 3 way RCF monitors (soft dome) and a Diy Doug Self preamp..and a Brid 105U valve output Cd player all of which I ran in a small room. Crikey I feel old talking about this.

I used 10 amp twin core lamp flex for speaker cable about 2 metres. One day I bought some Naim Audio cable which was about the same cross section area and looked similar. It was about $7.00 a metre. Every visitor remarked about the improved transient detail of the Naim cable. It did not require a blind test, it stood out like dogs balls.

I know at least one loudspeaker outfit who switched to Solen litz perfect lay chokes because of the improvement over std air core chokes.

Why do two power Hexfets from different manufacturers with the same model number and specs sound and different in a class A power amp?

Like any trade some things seem to work and others don't for reasons not fully explained. The smart outfit and and the smart discerning customers tend to attract each other because they know what works for them. Go figure.

Kinda puts things in perspective

Speaker Leads After the amplifier, we have the speaker lead itself. This has become (for reasons which I must confess I find entirely obscure) a subject of great controversy. There is actually nothing controversial about a piece of wire, despite the manufacturer's assertions to the contrary.
The purpose of the speaker lead is to carry the output current from the amp to the loudspeaker, preferably with as little power loss as possible. This implies that the lead should be capable of carrying currents of perhaps 5 amps or so for a distance of typically 2 metres. This is hardly a difficult task - the mains lead to a 2400W electric heater carries a continuous current of 10 Amps (assuming 240V operation), and usually manages this with little loss. The house wiring manages to carry this current from the switchboard through to the power outlet for far greater distances, still with relatively little loss. Then, of course, there's the cable run between the switchboard and the power station - ????

Roddyama

01-11-2007, 05:18 AM

Rod has some great articles but I doubt he listens too much to what he designs.

Not in the last couple years at least, too busy, but I'm trying to get the bug back.

I was however working on my setting up the horns a couple years ago (still not finished). You'll see the input cables are the Mogami I spoke of in the earlier post, the TAD's are fed with Kimber Cable (Made some cables for a local dealer for some scraps), and the 077's are fed with silver plated OFC stranded 22ga from Apex Jr.'s. There are Alpha-Core coils and and Solen PP caps. One day I'll finish this setup but it does sound pretty good now.

Ian Mackenzie

01-11-2007, 06:13 AM

Rodd,

Sorry I was talking about Elliott sound pages.:)
http://sound.westhost.com/impedanc.htm

Ah,

Tad drivers, I won't ask what diaphgram your using!

Roddyama

01-11-2007, 07:09 PM

Rodd,

Sorry I was talking about Elliott sound pages.:)
http://sound.westhost.com/impedanc.htm

Ah,

Tad drivers, I won't ask what diaphgram your using!
Ah yes, Mr. Elliott does have a certain sledge hammer practicality about him.:bash:

Mannermusic

01-13-2007, 12:05 PM

This (Cable stuff) has been discussed over and over again, and no conclusion has ever been made.

I have decided to make a new thread about this in the General forum.

My conclusion is: Those of you who can not hear any difference of different cables: Stay out of the thread. Those who can hear differences: Welcome, and let us discuss different cables.

I read all the stuff above - whew!:blink: - and can add just one recommendation: When you are evaluating 1) Do a blindfold A-B-A (have a friend make the changes while you listen) and 2) Assign some numerical value to the relative performance, say 1-10. You might have a few categories to evaluate such as smoothness, openess, musical accuracy (timbre), etc. As I'm sure you know, our human brains play tricks on us, especially if it involves a personal idea (pride!), money spent, etc. If you try to be truly objective, I think you'll be surprised what you learn and occasionally embarassed. Been there, done that! Mike Manner, 35 years engineering product development.

Thom

01-13-2007, 12:27 PM

Something to keep in mind if using solid cables. I doubt that this would effect sound quality but, the way to anneal copper is to heat it red and quench it. The way to harden copper is to work it. So, if you have large diameter soft copper wire, you should probably bend it as seldom as you can. Because every time you bend it the place where you bent it will be just a little bit harder than it was before. The only drawback that I can see to this is that it will get harder to work with. Not some big horror story. I just suggest that you bend it as little and as infrequently as is reasonable. I'm not suggesting that this will effect sound.
If there is something special going on that makes this incorrect, then correct me, otherwise I hope that this might be helpful.

Ian Mackenzie

01-13-2007, 01:39 PM

Per Lord Zilchvoncablemaker's recommendation am currently installing ZMC into the HF and UHF filters of my crossovers (4345) and to the drivers. I must say its fun but time consuming arranging the solids from the stripes.

I will hold a press conference later to day on my impressions.:D

loach71

01-13-2007, 02:03 PM

:banana: I now believe in immortality -- this thread refuses to die! :banana:

Gary L

01-13-2007, 02:13 PM

Zilch

01-13-2007, 02:19 PM

:banana: I now believe in immortality -- this thread refuses to die! :banana:Nothing's dead here 'til Ian sets the coffin nails.... :p

Hoerninger

01-13-2007, 02:27 PM

:banana: I now believe in immortality -- this thread refuses to die! :banana:
Lovely :thmbsup:

Lord Zilch von Cablemaker's

It sounds so British eh ... :hmm: ... European.

I will hold a press conference later to day on my impressions.:DI would be pleased. :wave:
____________
Peter

Titanium Dome

01-13-2007, 03:05 PM

moldyoldy

01-13-2007, 04:18 PM

Stripes are the ones that won't hold still.

Ian Mackenzie

01-13-2007, 05:44 PM

:banana: I now believe in immortality -- this thread refuses to die! :banana:

apparently

I am hopeing Fox carries the confrence because I would like it "Fair & Ballanced"

Always balanced and un-biased..Muhhahahaha:banana:

Gary

Nothing's dead here 'til Ian sets the coffin nails.... :p

Lovely :thmbsup:

It sounds so British eh ... :hmm: ... European.
I would be pleased. :wave:

Ah yes, and there is Zilch von Cablemaker castle, home of diy JBL.
____________
Peter

I hope I can catch the replay on the feed; there is a significant time difference.

Yes there is 11.38 AM Sydney 14.01.2007, 12.01.2007 05.38 pm L.A.

I still have a bit to do and hope to have something posted in a few hours.

Stripes are the ones that won't hold still.

Ian Mackenzie

01-13-2007, 08:02 PM

I have an announcement to make.

Two things. My fingers need a break and I have run out of Cat5e.

Back later.:)

Thom

01-13-2007, 08:16 PM

Will results on the bottom side of the globe even be relevant here. If you put together some of what has been attempted to be sold on this thread, along with the stories of toilets flushing backwards down there, it's a fair question. One could claim entirely different forces are at work. And the people who can't tell the difference could do everybody a favor and not post. Or is that me?

Ian Mackenzie

01-13-2007, 10:45 PM

I well I have been spending most of my day trying to get this little project completed.

Its now 4.40 pm here and my day has been eventful.

Removing the insulation and unbrading the cables is not easy.

My fingers hurt.

I ran out of cable.

So this fun project may spill over into tomorrow, sorry guys.

Ian:)

Zilch

01-13-2007, 11:01 PM

Just to be sure you understand, Ian, you only remove enough insulation at the ends to make the terminations; all that requires untwisting is just enough to accomplish that:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=142428&postcount=118

spwal

01-14-2007, 01:49 AM

Well Von Zilchester,

I put the sonicaps in my xover of my 1978 Heresy I, replacing the original leaky 30year old oval cans. This was a bob crotes kit that comes with little cradles and zipties for the caps. This was my first attempt at soldering in my life. I watched a great video online from a guy named tangent. then went straight to it.

http://tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/

I am pretty happy with the results, i think my soldering job turned out ok, though im not sure. Caps sound real zippy and my bass is back! Its amazing what a night and day difference the caps made. These sonicaps are very fast caps compared to what i have heard before.

One thing there is now, is the slightest breakup in what i percieve to be the upper midrange (i dont have any way of technically explaining this). During complex passages i think the speakers sound kinda junk for a split second.

Basically, my question is, can a crappy soldering job affect sound? Is this just normal break in for a pair of new caps? break in for my Jensen caps wasnt too painful at all, so that is why i ask about this. I am concerned i did a crappy soldering job.

I exposed the tin on the hook up wire, wrapped it around the lead of the cap nice and tights (close to the cap) then just put a blob of solder on the length of the contact...

Anyway... looking forward to that Zilch Miracle Cable... I think that if i didnt mess up the soldering in your opinion, i have the guts to change the hook-up wire as well as the binding posts. This is some fun stuff!

:biting::(:o::):baby::bouncy::barf:

Ian Mackenzie

01-14-2007, 01:54 AM

Roddyama

01-14-2007, 02:34 AM

I am pretty happy with the results, i think my soldering job turned out ok, though im not sure. Caps sound real zippy and my bass is back! Its amazing what a night and day difference the caps made. These sonicaps are very fast caps compared to what i have heard before.

One thing there is now, is the slightest breakup in what i percieve to be the upper midrange (i dont have any way of technically explaining this). During complex passages i think the speakers sound kinda junk for a split second.

Basically, my question is, can a crappy soldering job affect sound? Is this just normal break in for a pair of new caps? break in for my Jensen caps wasnt too painful at all, so that is why i ask about this. I am concerned i did a crappy soldering job.

I exposed the tin on the hook up wire, wrapped it around the lead of the cap nice and tights (close to the cap) then just put a blob of solder on the length of the contact...

:biting::(:o::):baby::bouncy::barf:

When you change components, be it caps or coils or cable or what have you, and the change results in more definition, you will hear more of the bad as well as the good. I always let a change "take a set" in my mind before jumping to conclusions unless the change made the sound worse than before the change.

WRT the "break up" you're now hearing, it could have always been there but now your speakers are finally resolving it for your ears to hear. You might want to check to be sure you didn't make any cold solder joints though they are probably fine.

moldyoldy

01-14-2007, 06:13 AM

spwal,

Could be a cold joint, could be a fried cap if you didn't use a heat sink and soldered "close to the cap" as noted. I tried to locate the sonicap's heat rating unsuccessfully, lots of wordage explaining unquantifiable properties, and no mention of the quantifiable ones.....whatever it is will be considerably lower than the temp needed for a good solder joint, hence the need to keep the heat from spreading unhindered into the cap.

I'm really more interested in the "break-in" you mentioned, as I just bought a new calculator that undoubtedly uses hundreds of caps, and am curious how long I need to use it before I can expect it to give correct solutions? :dont-know

spwal

01-14-2007, 08:07 AM

har har, moldy... you dont believe in cap break in i take it... i think blackgates are very taut until they loosen up. Just my opinion, but they get bettter after a while.

I hope i didnt fry the cap... I did get close to the cap, maybe too close, but i had the element on the hookup wire more than on the cap lead, thats for sure... since the hookup wire was wrapped around the lead, then i just touched the solder to the solder iron and let it drop in a puddle onto the hookupwire. I tugged on all the joints i made and they were all very tight.

I will see if this audible distortion i am hearing goes away... or it i can find out more about it. It is very brief and almost a non-issue... as rod-san said, it may be that it was always there... and honestly i think he may be right. It could be the tweeters.

At this point im just glad I didnt try to built my Altec xovers.

johnaec

01-14-2007, 08:11 AM

I ran out of cable.I have a HUGE amount of Cat5 (E?) cable available for anyone who wants to try ZMC. Free for the cost of packing, (say, $5), and shipping. Reasonable amounts each, please... PM me.

BTW - I've got all this cable available because we upgraded our office to Cat6, for full gigabit network capability. Has anyone looked into the chance that the better Cat6 stuff might also be better than Cat5 for audio, or is it in an area that has no significance to audio?

John

Zilch

01-14-2007, 10:48 AM

The construction of Cat6 is a little different.

I've never tried it; gotta use up all my free Cat5e here first.

There's also Cat7 in the works, and the Euro stuff is different, too.

[I ain't makin' this my life's work, nope, unless there's mega $$$ in it.... :p ]

Gary L

01-15-2007, 02:59 PM

I just finished making up two pairs of (ZMC) Zilch Magic Cables from my Cat5E.
Yes folks, Zilch was correct in that they are a PITA to do!:D

They should make for a neat appearance when installed, not that anyone other then me will ever see them.
I can't wait to hear these babies sing:p

Gary

spwal

01-15-2007, 03:01 PM

please let us know asap how it goes! Im gonna put some in my heresys as well! :p

Zilch

01-16-2007, 02:35 PM

Ian's giving his ZMCs a respectable burn-in, apparently.... ;)

spwal

01-17-2007, 11:02 AM

Please see this link for a beautiful pictureshow of Paul Coats handy-work as he brought these Altec Model 19 Crossovers (including the hookup wire) back to better than showroom new. Thanks again Paul!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13670&page=2

Wayne

01-17-2007, 11:49 AM

Ian's giving his ZMCs a respectable burn-in, apparently.... ;)

Hi Zilch

I see its been mentioned but have you actualy tried the ZMC from the amp to the speakers, say 2.5m lengths by means of twisting all 4 for +/red & another run again using all 4 for the -/black.
Then repeating the process above to the input of the cross-over & then to the woofer, might not look the best but for short lengths it would be possible to remove the strands from one length & feed it into the other, the mid & high would of course be done as shown by you.
Just curious if you had actualy tried & noted differances with doing this or if you found other cables for the L/F & Amp to speaker run better suited than the ZMC.

Cheers Wayne.
:cheers:

Zilch

01-17-2007, 12:17 PM

I see its been mentioned but have you actualy tried the ZMC from the amp to the speakers, say 2.5m lengths by means of twisting all 4 for +/red & another run again using all 4 for the -/black.The advantage derives primarily from using one member of the twisted pair for each direction of current; thus using separate Cat5e cables to increase the current capacity would not be a recommended approach.

Instead, I'd try connecting the solids vs. stripes of multiples together for that. Just two achieves resonable capacity for modest lengths; some practitioners go to what I would consider unwarranted extremes with it. I haven't researched lately, but there may be similar 8- or 10-pair cable available.

If you're biamping, a single 4-pair will likely suffice for mids and highs, where much less current is involved....

Wayne

01-17-2007, 12:52 PM

The advantage derives primarily from using one member of the twisted pair for each direction of current; thus using separate Cat5e cables to increase the current capacity would not be a recommended approach.

Instead, I'd try connecting the solids vs. stripes of multiples together for that. Just two achieves resonable capacity for modest lengths; some practitioners go to what I would consider unwarranted extremes with it. I haven't researched lately, but there may be similar 8- or 10-pair cable available.

If you're biamping, a single 4-pair will likely suffice for mids and highs, where much less current is involved....

Thanks Zilch

Just got hold of some DAT5e, had some DAT5 only 4 cables in total not 8 as in the 5e, I see what you mean by going to extremes as shown in the links by Giskard.
I will solder the 4 solids togeather which will be +/red & the 4 stripes being -/black, run that from the amp to the speaker connectors, unless you feel utilising 2 instead of 4 would be a better option, from there into the cross-over & onto the woofer, mid & tweet still using the 4 solids togeather as + & the 4 stripes as -. I'am not biamping.
Sound about right.

Cheers Wayne.
:cheers:

Zilch

01-17-2007, 01:11 PM

For the main lines between the amp and the speakers, you want 8 Cat5e conductors in each direction, minimum. 7x24 equates to 16 ga. 8x24 would be a bit better than that.

The individual conductors are 24 ga. in U.S. Cat5e; I don't know the specs for your DAT cable....

Wayne

01-17-2007, 01:16 PM

For the main line between the amp and the speakers, you want 8 conductors in each direction. 7/24 equates to 16 ga. 8/24 would be better than that.

The individual conductors are 24 ga. in U.S. Cat5e. I don't know the specs for your DAT cable....

No worries Zilch

Thanks for clearing that up.:D Yip same Cat5e here to.

Cheers Wayne.
:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie

01-17-2007, 03:33 PM

Ian's giving his ZMCs a respectable burn-in, apparently.... ;)

This is still a work in progress while I attend to other priorities

I will have a closer look at it over the weekend and report some details.

Ian

spwal

01-17-2007, 09:12 PM

Zilch,

just got my ZMC minis for my Heresys... cant wait to pop them in.

quick question on soldering.... do i heat the squaker and tweeter contact plates then drip a bunch of solder onto the cable and the plate at the same time? I think that if i touch the iron to the delicate wires the shielding and the solder you put on there will go up in smoke...

please advise, impressions will come on the weekend!

thanks

sean

Zilch

01-17-2007, 10:20 PM

You'll find the terminations I put on there are quite rugged. Certainly, there's no harm in putting the iron and solder on them, as that's how they were made.... :thmbsup:

Ian Mackenzie

01-19-2007, 10:50 PM

I should have some feedback by tomorrow afternoon.

Initial impressions are interesting.....more to follow.

I didn't see the point of making any comments without some means of doing a comparison with a known reference cable.

The implementation as such was not straight forward. It required bypassing all the HF and UHF internal enclosure wiring (Supra Rondo) and the L pads. So I basically installed a new set of ZMC wire looms and L pads (which are located externally) for the horn and slot.

The system is essentially tri wired with seperate runs of Supra Ronda for the woofer and midrange and a common run of ZMC for the horn and slotfrom the power amp, a Passlabs X250.5. I figured the differences would be most noticable on the upper mids and highs and I may re wire the mids with ZMC depending on what happens with the HF an UHF signals.

This approach will enable swapping out the ZMC for the Supra Rondo on both channels with extended listening comparisons. I will also be able to do some quick channel A (ZMC)/channel B (Supra Rondo) comparisons with a dual mono signal using my new preamp, the Passlabs X2.5. The X2.5 enables precison programming and tracking of the levels as well as a full passive attenuation mode. A masterpiece of audio engineering. More on that in another thread to follow.

Ian

porschedpm

01-20-2007, 05:12 AM

Nice pre-amp, Ian. I'm anxious to hear your impressions.

-Ed

Ian Mackenzie

01-20-2007, 07:01 AM

Hi Ed,

I am still getting the feel of it.

The thing to remember is to ground (pin 1) with pin 3 (negative -) for the unbalanced inputs with those links. It works better when you remember.

Using input 4 in passive bypass mode then passing back to active mode I could not detect the X2.5 with the Lavry DAC playing Kind of Blue. The software and the loudspeakers appear the weakest link. Their next.

spwal

01-20-2007, 08:17 AM

Um....

I have my impressions, hot out the of box.. finally had a night off to get this done.

I used ZMC in my 1978 Klipsch Heresys. I used the short runs to replace my existing hook-up wire in the mid range and the tweeter.

All i can say is, and i know you will still need a more venerable/accurate description, this cable lived up to its name sake. :applaud:

I want to say that i am still running the speakers from my crap Home theater reciever, using crap old zipcord that i took from my computer satellite speakers, and i still have the crap binding posts -- yup the tin/steel bolt or whatever it is. :blah:

As of now, i want desperately to have some ZMC-equivalent run directly from the crossover to my reciever and just bluetack-up the holes for the binding posts. :D The reason Zilch didnt give me a run for the Woofer is because he said there are cables better suited for that application.

Zilch: What if, for the speaker wire, i use a whole cablefor the positive, and a whole cable for the negative?

I digress... here is what happened... immediate and noticable lifting of at least one dusty old veil. Immediate increase in clarity, sparkle and luster in the highs without glare or harshness. My soldering skills are improving by the joint and i was totally confident i could do this. Dude, my gf who has been forced to listen to this whole project including doing some heavy lifting godbless her, even remarked that they sounded much more clear and in focus.

I thought the heresys did a great job imaging before, even with the stock cable, the ZMC did a good job of centering that up even more. Alot more treble energy i want to say... I wonder if this will mellow as the cable "breaks-in". cymbals are more cymbal like and i feel that i am hearing the limitations of my reciever more now. This is probably a sign that i need to focus on the woofer now... i am convinced that i need to update the hookup wire there as well, and also get some thicker speaker wire as per the discussion on the cable thread....

To be fair and objective ( beyond my enthusiasm for my new toy and my first self-satisfying foray into DIY) I wonder if ANY new hookup wire would have had a positive effect.... i dont even think that the Klipsch hookup wire in there was copper...

Regardless, I think that the ZMC is great, and given that i only used a tad bit of it in the mid and tweeter and everything else stayed the same, i can definitely say that it was the ZMCs that were having this positive effect.

If your speakers are old and dusty... try some new modern hookup wire, and help realize the full potential of your vintage speakers.

Nice discovery Zilch, please keep the innovations coming.

Zilch

01-20-2007, 10:44 AM

Zilch: What if, for the speaker wire, i use a whole cablefor the positive, and a whole cable for the negative?Reread this post:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=143997#post143997

Edit: Yes, available in 8-pair:

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/jsp/Index.jsp?P1=undefined&P2=undefined&P3=undefined&P4=undefined&P5=undefined&P6=undefined

#1702A

#1703A (Plenum version, FEP insulation)

Next size up is 24 pair.

[Select "Category,5" to see all 96 flavors.... :D ]

My soldering skills are improving by the joint....It's not recommended practice to smoke while soldering, but this IS DIY.... :p

Ian Mackenzie

01-20-2007, 01:45 PM

Um....

I have my impressions, hot out the of box.. finally had a night off to get this done.

Immediate increase in clarity, sparkle and luster in the highs without glare or harshness. My soldering skills are improving by the joint and i was totally confident i could do this. Dude, my gf who has been forced to listen to this whole project including doing some heavy lifting godbless her, even remarked that they sounded much more clear and in focus.

""cymbals are more cymbal like and i feel that i am hearing the limitations of my reciever more now. Regardless, I think that the ZMC is great, and given that i only used a tad bit of it in the mid and tweeter and everything else stayed the same, i can definitely say that it was the ZMCs that were having this positive effect.""

If your speakers are old and dusty... try some new modern hookup wire, and help realize the full potential of your vintage speakers.

Nice discovery Zilch, please keep the innovations coming.

I tend to agree in that it does not sound hard, yet nuances the fine details in such as way as to be life like.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie

01-21-2007, 01:43 AM

Lord Zilch von Cablemaker "ZMC"

Sorry for a delay on my report..a week late.

Over the weekend I arranged a series of evaluations comparing the ZMC cable with the Supra Rondo as detailed above. Some of these evaluations are still in progress.

It is conclusive at this point that the ZMC does makes a difference in comparison to the reference cable (Supra Rondo).

What is the difference?

Initially I was sceptical and wired the horn and slot only (JBL 4345)

I would summmarise my impressions as one of finesse and smoothness without sounding hardened, glarey or having overly detached detail. A certain bloom in the midrange taken to be the norm remained.

See below for more on this.

Then this afternoon I re-wired the mid cone (2122H) via the ZMC cable from the amp. The cabinets were carefully re positioned in the same exact location following these changes and all wiring was doubled checked.

Wow. The bloom and what I would refer to as a superimposed harmonic fuzz is completely gone. All this has been replaced by sheer clarity, purity and a coherent presentation.

Some background.

I have been using this particular speaker setup for some time (3 years) and about 6 months ago I changed everthing around when I bought a equipment cabinet to hold a new amp. I decided it was time to tidy everything up and I re wired the speakers... why not.

Prior to this I was using a single run old flat ribbon made of copper standed wire from the amp to the crossovers. I had been using this cable for years.

I decided to bi wire. Its supposed to work so I shopped around for a neat solution and bought the Supra Rondo stuff which has 4 tinned stranded cores red & black, grey & blue) in a heavy pvc sheath. I would describe this cable as heavy duty.

Anyways, I got it all going and I could not put put my finger on it but something was up. It sounded great but something was odd, it bloomed on the mids in a really odd way. Like a resonant grating character. I managed to tame this to a degree with some Lpad adjustment and some other mods but the effect remained. I wrote off the cause as a resonance from the new equipment cabinet which is between the speakers..a large wooden affair.....bummer.

True biamping eradicated the issue largely....but it has been bugging me for some time to get back the really awesome sound I previously had from the full passive system.

************************************************** *******

As to the reasons for the about face in the results with the different cable arrangement well my thoughts at the moment are that the 4 cores in the Supra Rondo somehow mutually couple and induce modulation from the woofer into the midrange and HF signals. This is just a theory but the subjective thing is for real. Its just chalk and cheese.

While perhaps other cables may provide similar results in this configuration (competely seperate low and HF cables) the results with the ZMC are very impressive and it won't cost you an arm and a leg.

Ian

Zilch

01-21-2007, 02:16 AM

Thank you, Ian. That was a lot of effort you put in to achieve controlled conditions, and I'm pleased it resulted in such improvements for you! :thmbsup:

I make no claims about ZMC other than the measureable difference in impedance above 400 Hz I have documented here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=144173#post144173

and that the configuration makes logical sense. As you say, anyone who wants to can easily try it after an inexpensive run to Home Depot.

I do have some thoughts about biwiring and biamping with this, which I'll post here shortly.

I believe you are correct about inductive coupling in bundled cables. More on that then....

Ian Mackenzie

01-21-2007, 03:07 AM

Thanks Zilch,

I make no assumptions in this business and today was quantum leap forward in terms of getting the best out of my system. Now that new gear's really got the jump on the road to audio nirvana.

The improvement just reinforces my belief that JBL is the only choice and it deserves everything you can throw at it.

Ian

spwal

01-21-2007, 09:29 AM

I concur... it was a huge improvement over the hookup wire that was previously in my Klipsch. I need to re-throw-in the disclaimer that I did not A/B it against an "aftermarket" hookup wire. I do want to stress however that it really was a delightful improvement, and a great saturday afternoon project for anyone interested in trying it! I can confirm that they have plenty of cat5 cable down at the depot as i was there yesterday.

thanks again,

sean

Hoerninger

01-21-2007, 09:36 AM

... I do have some thoughts about biwiring and biamping with this, which I'll post here shortly.
I believe you are correct about inductive coupling in bundled cables. More on that then....

It is a good idea to make some comparable investigations, I would like to follow. Some thoughts ahead:

Although cables seem to be a myth, for ingenieurs they are not. There are cables from DC up to some THz (Tera) and they may be quite lengthy. But the electroacoustic coupling of speakers and the deviding network make things complicated sometimes.

Two wires forming a closed circuit make an inductor, its inductivity can be kept at minimum if the wires are close together. Two wires in parallel form a capacitor, the capacitance can be kept lower if the wires are at a greater distance. - The demands are contradictory.
The lower the dielectric coefficient the lower the capacity. I have seen a cable which seemed to consist of three wires. But the middle was only filled with air to keep the dielectric coefficient low. I don't know whether it is worth the effort. Some amplifiers have an inductor in the output made of ca. 20 cm copper wire with 0,3 mm diameter to overcome a capacitative load.

A cable can be simulated by chaining a network of inductors, capacitors and resistors. In a general view all parts are frequency dependend (consider in series skineffect, in parallel dielectric). Take the circuit of the picture several times in series ... and then follows the deviding network.

To make things even worse, a complex load can have a significant influence on the frequency dedendend gain of an amplifying stage, which effects the the overload behaviour, sometimes even feedback stability.

Nevertheless the choice of cables is made simple for me: Short. thick, cheap. The WAF for place and size of a speaker has a far more important influence on sound (for me). To be serious, I should concider overhauling my deviding networks and turn over to biwiring, if my writing here has any sense. I'm interested in the following here.
___________
Peter

Zilch

01-21-2007, 01:12 PM

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but In virtually all of my DIY crossovers, I install four input terminals, two each for LF and HF (MF/HF), allowing separate connections to those sections. This may seem pointless, since I do not also provide means to bypass the filters themselves for true biamping. Indeed, they generally run jumpered here, somewhat of an inconvenience in connecting systems. The reason? Aside from allowing easy independent access to each section for test and measurement purposes, this configuration permits biwiring.

In it's simplest form, i.e., separate cables for LF vs. HF running from a single amp to speakers, biwiring accrues little respect from the audio community. However, if we accept the premise that different cable types may be better suited to carrying different frequencies, then there is clearly merit in designing accordingly. Several higher-end JBL systems incorporate this feature.

ZMC, actually Cat5e cable reconfigured as described above, seems to be a suitable choice for HF. Equivalent to 18 awg, it can carry the requisite current over reasonable lengths. I recently read in a reference 100 ft maximum for that wire size; it's certainly good for 1/10 that.

I think we've gone stupid with rope-sized LF cables. From the numbers and the measurements, 16 awg is adequate for LF in the lengths commonly used for home systems, and I have suggested a doubled-up configuration of 4-pair Cat5e as an option, and referenced an 8-pair version, as well. These would be more appropriate for a single cable running full range to each speaker, though. I don't see any major advantage in using ZMC just for LF when the HF is blocked by the filter.

So, now we've got at least two cables running from the amp to each speaker. Is it O.K. to bundle them? I haven't confirmed with testing, but the twisted-pair of ZMC should confer considerable immunity to coupling between the LF and HF cables, but that needs to be verified. Ian has documented the perils of bundling conventional cable, above.

I also find an interesting composite cable among the Belden offerings, product 5288US (FEP-insulated plenum version 6288US,) which may be worth a try. It's 4-pair Cat5e plus a pair of 16 awg conductors separately run (not co-mingled) and bonded.

Biwiring is not restricted to using a single amp. Some prefer running different amps, indeed, different amp types (tube or chip vs. solid state,) for HF vs LF, as distinct from true biamping including an active crossover before the amps. In this case, both amps are driven by the same full-range signal, but the passive filters at the speaker only draw current at the appropriate frequencies through the cables, and the cabling schemes described above may be appropriately applied.... :thmbsup: