D-130 and Paragon?

[hifiguy9]

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to use the JBL D-130 woofers in a JBL paragon system and if so would the sound be any different than what is usually used in this system. And what is the difference between D-130 and 154-C. Your input would be appreciated.

[boputnam]

They may physically fit, and "work", but any modification away from the original components will certainly sound different. The paragon / metreon series are very delicate balances of components and reflecting surfaces to get the dispersion just right. This doesn't make what you are asking wrong, it's only that you're challenging a bunch of well-tested engineering decisions by going our own way.

The D-, E- and K-series are designed for very specific (instrument) applications

[hifiguy9]

Thanks for your answer Bo. I'm just a little puzzeled about this because I sold a Paragon recently to a fellow I know and the unit worked great when it was delivered and here it is 3 months later and he claims the 150's suddenly went dead and wants me to compensate him somehow since he paid so much for it. So the only thing I have right now are the D130's hence my reason for asking. I suppose if it does work out I will get the 150-4c's in return and take them to a tech and have them redone if that is the problem. A freind of mine told me the 150's have a much higher value than the 130's and to go for it. I just don't want the guy being sore at me for something he may have done wrong and is trying to blame me for.

[4313B]

You didn't happen to sell that Paragon to some fellow in Chicago who also recently bought a pair of L-112's did you? :eek:

[hifiguy9]

No, not in Chicago. Here local in Cincinnati, Ohio

[subwoof]

Of course the old "4C's" are worth a LOT more because the repair kits for those have been out of stock for many many years.

If you have a blown one it's now a doorstop. period.

And since they were designed to handle a whopping 75 watts ( a LOT in those days ) 10 bucks says they were blown from being overpowered.

If he had them for such a long time and suddenly "both" died, there's NO way it is your fault. He poofed 'em.

If you sold him a car and he wrapped it around a tree 3 months later that year do you have to compensate him for that?

Like the car you didn't drive the speaker you didn't drive either...:)

Ask giskard if that kit has "reappeared" on the parts list. Seems pro and consumer ( who probably would never share beers after work anyways ) have different prices / availabilitys and other inventory issues....

For the closest sound, I think the K145 would be the choice. Or for the truly insane volume possibilitys I would bet the 2227H would be an interesting choice.....

sub

[Oldmics]

First,Are you sure that there were 150-4C speakers in the Paragon and not the LE15?Second,if it was in good functioning shape when it left you and was abused by the new owner,I would consider it his problem and not yours.While the power handling of the 150-4C is only 30 watts it is a highly efficent speaker.The level that this speaker would produce in the Paragon enclosure would be deafening.If you are interested I will swap a pair of perfectly working LE15 speakers that have been refoamed for the pair of blown 150s even up.Oldmics

[Oldmics]

Giskard,That Chicago Paragon with the 150 speakers came up from Florida.Oldmics

[boputnam]

Originally posted by hifiguy9
...here it is 3 months later and he claims the 150's suddenly went dead and wants me to compensate him ... I think that would be what is called "totally absurd". I agree with subwoof, unless this is a family member or you made representations of "good for the rest of your life".

:screwy:

I'm also sure, sure, sure like Giskard is, that this guy is related to the guy Guy sold his L112's to, too (perhaps my best syntax all year... ;) ).

:wtf: I think you two are taking this eBay thing a bit too seriously. I've got quite a few things from eBay that were basically barely as represented, but either failed sorta soon after, or the seller used a numeric scale base 20, or something. Whatever. I either use it, re-sell on eBay with accurate description, or leave it stacked in the garage unitl I no longer get cross seeing it. When I am a seller, and my buyers have complained (once) I offer full refund+shipping, and that is the end.

As an aside, as with another erudite Forumite here, I consider all transducers I buy to be needing reconing, no matter what.

[Bestsmurfs]

I agree, they all have to be assumed to need reconing. I did a sloppy surround job on my Le 14’s and while they “work fine” there is no way they sound like a professionally reconed speaker.
I advertised them on eBay as such and got “no sale” while all the dam liars who said their speakers were fine with rotted surrounds or new surrounds sold for big $$$. Note to buyers, all vintage drivers need to be re-coned by an authorized repair center unless they are accompanied by a dated receipt. Just my opinion of course. Regarding the “both went dead” woofers, suck it up buddy, you cooked em’.

Happy holidays to all my JBL homies out their in JBL land.

[rpstephen]

As a paragon owner, I have often wondered how different woofers would sound. I was told by the owner of Pecar Electronics in Detroit back in the 60s that JBL switched to the Le-15a to get deeper bass. There is deeper base on the paragon than would be expected given that the horn loading doesn't go below 50-60 hz I can hear (feel) footfalls and an impressive anvil on a recording of Das Rheingold. Putting in a D130 might be bass deficient and require crossover changes. I have also found the paragon to be very system dependent. When I acquired an Atma-sphere amp & preamp, I thought wow! where did that bass come from.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Ive all ways wonder,d what a pair of 2234 or 2235 woofers would do in the PARAGON.

[rpstephen]

I have a pair of 2234s which I would like to try in the paragon, but I think putting in mass rings to make them 2235s would be better to match efficiency with the Le-15a (another project). Might get away with just adjusting the xover down 1 notch. Also the le-15a is damn heavy to hold while unbolting , really needs 2 persons. Anyone in the southeast want to help?

[Alex Lancaster]

I can´t wait to hear from You about the results; if You could try the 2234´s first, and later add the mass rings, even better.

While You are at it, try 077/2405's instead of the 2402's, You will need more eq, but it would be really interesting.

Then again, it is like putting a turbo on Your 1950's Rolls Royce.

Alex.

[johnhb]

A friend of mine bought a paragon from the original owner. It was serial number 138. It was made of plywood and originally had 150-4cs. In the sixties the store in L.A. told the owner that he should upgrade the speakers to LE-15s as per JBL recommendation which he did. My paragon of later vintage has LE15s. I have never had any desire to change the woofers even though I have 130.d130,136a,LE15b,K145. Another friend had a metrogon with original 130a. After a great deal of experimentation he finally decided on LE15s.

[Harvey Gerst]

Some of the original Paragons were shipped with the 150-4C, but when the LE15 came out, we switched to that. The Metragon was not as critical as to components.

[Don McRitchie]

Harvey

Do you know if the LE15 was ever used in the Hartsfield? Hal Cox swears that it was, but I have never seen this mentioned in any of the JBL literature from this era. I never did understand why they put the LE15 in the Paragon since that driver never seemed to be meant for horn loading.

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally posted by Don McRitchie
Harvey

Do you know if the LE15 was ever used in the Hartsfield? Hal Cox swears that it was, but I have never seen this mentioned in any of the JBL literature from this era. I never did understand why they put the LE15 in the Paragon since that driver never seemed to be meant for horn loading. First of all, the Paragon wasn't much of a horn, so the LE15 was an improvement. I remember vaguely that we did some experimenting with an LE15 after the Hartsfield was redesigned to make it easier to build and load. I don't remember if it was ever official.

[jcdahl]

I just bought a pair of JBL 1500 Subwoofers from Parts Express
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-750&orefer=esf021904-299-750

I may try them in one of my Paragons. I May have to use Bi-amplification to get the proper balance.

[Maron Horonzakz]

JICDAHL......How would you mount them in the paragon? 1500 are front mounted woofers. A thick ring would need to be installed to keep rubber surround from interfearing. But its a great idea I hope you can do it.

[Rafael]

I tried the D 130´s, the 2226´s and finally the 2235´s. Depending on the room maybe you can get a little improvement- or should I say: it just sounded different. I prefer the 2235´s in a reflex design over the LE 15´s but for the paragon the LE 15´s are perhaps the best choice. I think it was no problem for JBL to install another woofer if they thought it was a better choice.

Rafael

[4313B]

" I think it was no problem for JBL to install another woofer if they thought it was a better choice."

Good point. JBL has been cranking these things out a very long time and the most recent driver I know of was the LE15H and I think that's after the 2235H had been out over ten years. Plenty of "swapportunity" time there :D

[rpstephen]

The technical data sheet on the paragon lists the 2235 as a replacement for the le15a " but only as a last resort". One of the reasons may be that the crossover is not optimized for the 2235.
I intend to try my 2234s in the paragon just for curiosity. I fully intend to replace the 075 diaphragms with the 077 at some point.

[4313B]

"One of the reasons may be that the crossover is not optimized for the 2235."

Well, that's a given. Completely different impedance curves.

[rpstephen]

The 2235 might be better than the LE-15a in the paragon with a custom crossover. JBL was probably unwilling to put the needed resources into such a low volume product. The LX-5 crossover was the same as in the S-7 & S-8 systems indicating no special customizing was done for the paragon originally.

[4313B]

Sure, you could run a curve on the two LE15's you have and then a curve on the two 223x's you have and adjust the crossover values accordingly. :)

[rpstephen]

would that involve measuring the impedence vs frequency in the enclosure, and then using a program to model the network with this data? Then we would probably have to do some frquency response measurements. This would be a nice assignment for someone with the expertise & tools.

[Rafael]

Due to different characteristics between these drivers, of course it is necessary to use different crossovers. When using passive x-overs this is a hard piece of work and when it works with a certain driver, you probably can´t remember the sound with the former driver. You can use an active x-over and many of these problems are gone. But as I said in an older reply, don´t modify the paragon too much. We tried all kinds of x-overs: active, passive, 6dB/oct, 18dB/oct, tried slightly changing and spreading the x-over points and shure, you can get a different sound character. When I tried a digital network/EQ the paragon sounded a bit like a modern high-end speaker and I went back to the original x-overs immediately.