Z19

[Zilch]

5 cuft 4505WX inverted with 2235H installed. Both ports open, it measures 33.3 Hz tuning. One port closed, it's 23 Hz, an alignment requiring active HP EQ.

2452H-SL 4" Aquaplas-damped titanium diaphragm "Next Generation" 1.5" exit compression driver.

2352 "Optimized Aperture" horn with flange modified for small bolt circle; also accepts 243x drivers.

2509A horn/driver mounting bracket similarly modified.

Fully biased custom crossover, 1 kHz (bottom).

Woofer recessed 3.5" improves time-alignment over previous 4507 iterations.

It's your standard C50SM, 4320/25 et.al. box, better braced than similar consumer L200, with 11-ply construction.

Pumpin' dZihan & Kamien Gran Riserva just now.

[Think I'll paint that dot JBL red.... :p ]

[Gary L]

Very nice Zilch!

Now we want to see you put that all into a living room friendly cabinet that the wife can accept!:cool:

Gary

[Zilch]

Shabby chic. :thmbsup:


Paragon's in the living room; looks good, sounds really crappy.


[There's tradeoffs in all matters audio.... .;) ]

[Robh3606]

Watch that Z reference

LZ-19

Tactical* (http://www.pugetairship.org/zeppelins/list_1.html#note):
Z I (third ship to bear this designation)
Usage:
military
First Flight:
6 June 1913
LZ-19 was damaged beyond repair in a thunderstorm on 13 April 1914 and subsequently scrapped.

You never know who used it before you

Rob:)

[Gary L]

OK Zilch, No doubt in my mind you would be the guy with the ratty looking Vega with the 427 under the hood and dial in to perfection.
Your attitude would be "don't worry about what it looks like because you won't see it for long"!

Just for the record, I was never fond of how the Paragon looks or sounds.
Do wish I had a few but not because I ever liked them.

Just a couple weeks with my lovely wife and you will either get with the program or starve;)

Gary

[Mr. Widget]

OK Zilch, No doubt in my mind you would be the guy with the ratty looking Vega with the 427 under the hood and dial in to perfection.The Zilchmobile is actually a very ratty looking Porsche... it may have been dialed in at one time, but these days, I am amazed every time I see that it made it across the Bay Bridge.:)



Just for the record, I was never fond of how the Paragon looks or...You my friend are a seriously ill individual.:D


Widget

[John W]

Here you go, just add a few curves.

[johnaec]

The Zilchmobile is actually a very ratty looking Porsche... it may have been dialed in at one time, but these days, I am amazed every time I see that it made it across the Bay Bridge.:)'Ya' mean that thing moves?? I've only seen it sitting in the driveway... :duck:

John

[Zilch]

Anyone with a pair of these big ol' boxes around would do well to try inverting them like this as a LF platform for whatever MF/HF they want to use on top.

Using 2235H, it's basically 4430 bass, but with the driver up off the floor and close to the horn. No changes to the box are required other than to block off the original MF/HF openings.

Up on these dollies, the top is 35.5" from the floor, 3" shorter than L200, and 1" shorter than 4507 on the same wheels....

[4313B]

No changes to the box are requiredMy wife begs to differ...


Shabby chic. :thmbsup:That just might fly in the Middle East.

[Zilch]

That just might fly in the Middle East.

:applaud:


'Ya' mean that thing moves?? I've only seen it sitting in the driveway...That's so's you don't see the drippings.... ;)


The Zilchmobile is actually a very ratty looking Porsche... it may have been dialed in at one time, but these days, I am amazed every time I see that it made it across the Bay Bridge.Anything that had hauled the Zilchster's ass around for 37 years would be ratty as a matter of course.... :p

[Thom]

Looks great but I must have missed where you say how it sounds. I expect pretty good I just didn't see where you said so. Or are you a step away from playing music still?

Hopefully not as fragile as a 427 vega. Every time a rear wheel comes off the ground under power, if you're still in it when it comes back down, something breaks.

[Gary L]

:D Giskard, You had me rolling on the floor and laughing my ass off.
"Might work in the Middle East".

So Zilch, consider yourself warned! It might sound great and work wonderfully but not here in "Middle America".

You can either get your stuff together to within acceptable norms or bail out.
Some of us have different beats we have to conform to and yours just won't get it! :applaud:

Nice try buddy!

Next time the least you could do is put a standard size tire under them like at least a 13" er.

Gary

[Zilch]

Looks great but I must have missed where you say how it sounds. I expect pretty good I just didn't see where you said so. Or are you a step away from playing music still?The LF is a no-brainer, of course -- 2235H in a solid 5 cuft, end of story. I'm thinking about how to easily extend the ports to get down a bit closer to 30 Hz, is all. It'll just take another inch or so to get there.

I've got the HF dialed in fairly well, I believe; good enough for music, in any case. Mr. Widget's gonna drop by later this week for a brief listen. 2352 is the best sounding horn I have here, other than my brief recent experience with borrowing an H9800.

The 2452H-SL drivers have maybe a bit too much "air" presently, but Speakerdave suggests that the 4" Aquaplas'd SL diaphragms get mellower with use. They're playing continuously here to accelerate the break in. Once that's complete, I'll try moving the crossover point down to 800 Hz and roll off the UHF somewhat sooner.

Blue's the LF nearfield, red's the full range windowed, and cyan's full range with all the room stuff:

[Zilch]

Design precedents:


[I should get out from behind the screen more, maybe.... :D ]

[Gary L]

If I only had my own way!

Buy an old post and beam barn and use the bottom for my stuff and shop and fix the hay loft for my living space. Speakers would almost have to be in the above forms just to make enough sound to fill the room and I would maintain a rustic look so they would fit right in.
Ofcourse the wife would move to a Town House and I would be dancing with self.
I think about the closest I could get to any of these is a nice pair of Altec Magnificents under current arrangements. Somehow, horns just don't have the same appeal for her as they do for me. I can just hear it now "I'M NOT DUSTING THAT CRAP":blink:

Gary

[Zilch]

I can just hear it now "I'M NOT DUSTING THAT CRAP":blink: Not required. See first pic immediately above. It's essential to the aesthetic.

Puttin' your initials there is encouraged, but appending the date is considered bad form.... :p

[Titanium Dome]

Not required. See first pic immediately above. It's essential to the aesthetic.

Puttin' your initials there is encouraged, but appending the date is considered bad form.... :p

True for all of us probably, but if GT came by my dungeon and put his monogram in the dust, I'd ask him to date it.

[Chas]

Zilch, I have a pair of 4505 boxes that I have added integral bases to - so inverting the box isn't an option over here. But, ever since the Q&D thread, I have been thinking about doing a really nice two way set-up. You've piqued my curiousity, for sure. :hmm:


Based on your photo, it kinda looks like that big horn won't clear the cabinet sides and top if I was to carve an opening above the 2235H and try to flush mount it to the baffle - would it?

On second thought maybe I could add an adaptor plate and line up the VC's at the same time...

What are the dimensions of the mouth opening?

[speakerdave]

. . . . The 2452H-SL drivers have maybe a bit too much "air" presently, but Speakerdave suggests that the 4" Aquaplas'd SL diaphragms get mellower with use. They're playing continuously here to accelerate the break in. Once that's complete, I'll try moving the crossover point down to 800 Hz and roll off the UHF somewhat sooner. . . .
I'm listening to mine in a pass band of 1.2k to 10.5k, so I may never have heard what you are hearing.

Final impressions will be posted soon in Treble Drivers in 4345 thread.

David

[Zilch]

Based on your photo, it kinda looks like that big horn won't clear the cabinet sides and top if I was to carve an opening above the 2235H and try to flush mount it to the baffle - would it?The horizontal width of 22" will just fit; it's the vertical where you've got a problem. There's only 12.25" of space between the top of the cabinet and the woofer edge. 2352 is 18" high; that's much more overhang than feasible to accommodate, I'd say.

The 4430's 2344(A) will fit there, as will PT-H waveguides, and PT-F, of course.

H9800 will fit, and possibly the TOTL horn, and some other Harman Consumer horns....

[Chas]

Thanks Zilch - too bad, it doesn't fit.

FYI: After suffering through your original Q&D thread ;) ! Combined with reading about the new Everest and Project Array products - and finally, being tantalized by Giskard's TOTL appetizer that he has served up thus far, I am itching to try building a JBL SOTA two-way system. No doubt about it, there are some really good reasons to try it.

I was thinking I may be able to circumvent my lack of woodworking skill by somehow using my old 4505 boxes.

I think my best bet is to stay tuned, do some learning, and see what falls out here as a solution for over here. You, Guido, Merlin and Giskard et al, are a great resource to have. Looking forward to hearing more....
Charles.:cheers:

P.S. I have 4430's and really enjoy them, I want to try something new so the 2344 is really not an option.

[Zilch]

The 4505s are certainly well made and thus a good option for the LF.

If you're not up to springing for the TOTL horns, I'm brewing some other options here, some of them awaiting JBL deliveries.

I've also got to order up parts for GT's filter yet to try them out.

"Staying tuned" may be the best strategy for right now.... :yes:

[Chas]

If you're not up to springing for the TOTL horns, .



Maybe I will be, once I know what they are :dont-know

[Zilch]

90° x 50° JBL 2381 Optimized Aperture horn will fit.

Johnaec found this horn, used in a few SRII and SRX products.

$94 apiece from JBL Pro Parts.

11" H x 15" W, note similarity to 2352, rear.

Can that 4 dB glitch at 12 kHz be tweaked out? Probably. JBL used DSC260 to EQ 2446J for their response curve.

Do I hear it? Nope.

Dip at 1 kHz is time alignment, easily resolved; that's where I've got it crossed.

Rising DI prompted me to check polar response. It's fine in the horizontal center 60° at the high end....

[johnaec]

Thanks for running the curve, Zilch. As an aside - I'll be using these for a small PA system, using the 2381 with the 2447J driver, and 2226H 15" LF, similar to this: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Sound_Power/sp215-9.pdf

I'd initially started out with 2380A horns and 2446J drivers, but traded for the 2381/2447 combo, since I'm shooting for the smallest cabinets possible, (vocals). 'Worked out best for both of us. :)

John

[Zilch]

Cool, John. I hadn't found that product. There's the actual polars on the horn, then.

Here's the tech sheet:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Sound%20Power%20Series/SP215-9WH.pdf

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=146128#post146128

[Mr. Widget]

I thought of you when I first saw the Jubilee posts over at the Klipsch forum... it is an active two-way with all of the necessary EQ to squeak out enough top end.

I applaud the effort, I am sure they are really something to behold. They are approaching a new low in WAF and I doubt they are sonically audio nirvana for all, but I know it would be a real kick in the pants to give them an audition.


Widget

[JBL 4645]

There is nothing sexier then to see a few JBL cinema loudspeakers in the early hours of the morning believe me, you are the luckiest man alive.
:banana::smsex: