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riker1384
12-15-2006, 01:29 PM
I don't know about you guys, but my local Tower Records has a bunch of 4412's on the wall. It looks like all of them have bad foam and they've been playing them that way. Since they're closing, I've had this idea about asking if they want to sell a pair and was wondering a few things.

Is it a good idea? Are they likely to need reconing rather than just foam since they've been running with the foam falling apart? Are there any other things that will need work? What would be a decent price for these things? I don't have all that much to spend.

Zilch
12-15-2006, 02:25 PM
DRAT! I forgot about that.

My local Tower has about 6 pair hanging from the ceiling.

Time to mosey on over there, I'd say.

If they're still playing, refoam should do it until you can afford full recones.

Try to get them for $200 a pair or less. :thmbsup:

jackgiff
12-15-2006, 03:37 PM
Even if they need recones, it seems like $200 for a pair would be a steal. The 4412 is an excellent speaker/monitor. I need to check the Tower store in Phoenix. For $200, I could use another two pair. But then again, I counted my speakers today and have 24 pairs already. Maybe that is enough.

Nahhh. Only three pairs are JBL's. That is not enough.

:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Storm
12-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Jack - take your hands off of my stash!

I will go to Tower Records in Phoenix and if they have any, I will buy them.

:)

But only to re-sell, of course! Now maybe if I was rescuing a pair of VOTTS, that would be a whole other story.

-Storm

briang
12-15-2006, 04:01 PM
No Tower Records anywhere near me:( ...nearest is an 8 hour drive away...:blink:

Zilch
12-15-2006, 04:02 PM
4412s are renowned Valencia killers.

[Especially if you STACK 'em.... :p ]

Storm
12-15-2006, 04:19 PM
No speaker can kill my Valencias!

:)

-Storm

jackgiff
12-15-2006, 04:43 PM
4412s are Valencia killers.

[Especially if you STACK 'em.... :p ]Wow Zilch, how many times have I read your posts where you said only one pair at a time, or something like that. However, I agree with your opening line. They are that good, aren't they? But the DIY 4430's are so much better. Thanks again for all your help with my pair.


No speaker can kill my Valencias!
Storm, don't count on that. If you haven't heard 4412's, you are missing something. And the DIY 4430's are what makes me think about selling a pair of Valencias. Makes me wonder how good factory 4430's would sound.

SEAWOLF97
12-15-2006, 05:11 PM
the 4412's driver load is not really unique or spectacular ? so WHY do they sound so good ?

The cabinets are standard , so my WAG is that the dividing network must be stellar ?? have I missed somwthing here ?? :blink:

toddalin
12-15-2006, 06:45 PM
My Tower Records has Blose systems all over the store. The only thing that could be kind of cool are the two big, loooong Bloze "Tube Cannon Woofers" they have hanging.

BTW, the one near me is even selling the fixtures. The CD racks are going for $35 a pop and the listening stations are at $50.

(You think they would sell me one of the employees...?)

oznob
12-15-2006, 07:04 PM
Tower on Howe Ave. in Sacramento has M&K stuff.:banghead: There is a Tower on El Camino in I believe Palo Alto or Mtn. View. I've only been there once and I don't remember what they had for speakers. May be worth a trip for a South Bay forum member.:yes:

Zilch
12-15-2006, 07:25 PM
Wow Zilch, how many times have I read your posts where you said only one pair at a time, or something like that.J/K, of course.

[Storm KNOWS better than to stack.... ;) ]


The 4412's driver load is not really unique or spectacular ? so WHY do they sound so good?Some combinations just work.

They're a little "dry" sounding in my view; 4410s are a tad warmer. Still my favorite bookshelf, tho.... :thmbsup:

SEAWOLF97
12-15-2006, 07:41 PM
They're a little "dry" sounding in my view; 4410s are a tad warmer. Still my favorite bookshelf, tho.... :thmbsup:

I am now running both..4412s for mains and 4410's for rears and I wud rate them just the opposite. The 10s are a little "clinical" while the 12s are just about perfect for my taste , seem warmer.

A question for Zilch...

I looked over the specs on 4411 and 4412 b4 I started to persue the 12s. Same box , same LF, different MF and HF. 12 has a little wider range.

So why did they produce 2 models so similar ? Was there a big price difference ? Were sales similar ? :confused:

DavidF
12-15-2006, 07:47 PM
I don't know about you guys, but my local Tower Records has a bunch of 4412's on the wall. It looks like all of them have bad foam and they've been playing them that way. Since they're closing, I've had this idea about asking if they want to sell a pair and was wondering a few things.

Is it a good idea? Are they likely to need reconing rather than just foam since they've been running with the foam falling apart? Are there any other things that will need work? What would be a decent price for these things? I don't have all that much to spend.


Such things are property of the Bankruptcy Estate. I would imagine some plan is already in place to liquidate the store fixtures. After the inventory is liquidated, the fixtures and equipment will be pulled together for bulk sales. It is not likely that the on-site personnel have any authority to sell off the property. Never know, though.
DavidF

duaneage
12-15-2006, 08:36 PM
I am now running both..4412s for mains and 4410's for rears and I wud rate them just the opposite. The 10s are a little "clinical" while the 12s are just about perfect for my taste , seem warmer.

A question for Zilch...

I looked over the specs on 4411 and 4412 b4 I started to persue the 12s. Same box , same LF, different MF and HF. 12 has a little wider range.

So why did they produce 2 models so similar ? Was there a big price difference ? Were sales similar ? :confused:
The 4411 has a better crossover, better filters on the midrange adn hi freq. drivers. I don't think the 4412 had much on the LF either for a crossover

Zilch
12-15-2006, 08:57 PM
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4410LR.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4411LR.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4412LR.pdf

4411 put on a mighty struggle to qualify.... ;)

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4411.pdf

riker1384
12-15-2006, 09:08 PM
Well, it looks like I might be out of luck. I asked a cashier about it, and they said they were only offering the entire sound system for $5000. I could maybe send them an email telling them to call me if they can't sell the whole deal I suppose.

Most of the good music is gone. I just got some CDs that were worth having at $.50.

SEAWOLF97
12-16-2006, 06:18 AM
4411 put on a mighty struggle to qualify.... ;)



I actually did read all those pdf's before deciding , but dont quite understand your 4411 statement.:confused:

BMWCCA
12-16-2006, 08:02 AM
Why are they listing the 044 as "pure titanium"? I thought conventional wisdom on this site had it as "aluminized" best case and "rattle can" spray paint being under suspicion. Isn't the 4411 just an L112 with a different driver alignment? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

L150A
L112
4412A
030

SEAWOLF97
12-16-2006, 08:21 AM
pdf shows 4411 044 to 18khz +-3 ,
and 4412/4410 035ti to 20khz +-2db

4411 has le5-9 mid and
4412 & 10 =104-h2

4410 & 12 seem to have a much larger port than the 4411 ?

appears that the 4410 & 12 are very close designs, while the 4411 is somewhat different ?

mikebake
12-16-2006, 09:35 AM
But the DIY 4430's are so much better. Thanks again for all your help with my pair.

Makes me wonder how good factory 4430's would sound.
Are you insinuating that you went to the trouble of building a DIY 4430 that DEOSN'T sound better than the factory?? If so, why would you do that?

briang
12-16-2006, 09:56 AM
Why are they listing the 044 as "pure titanium"? I thought conventional wisdom on this site had it as "aluminized" best case and "rattle can" spray paint being under suspicion. Isn't the 4411 just an L112 with a different driver alignment? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

L150A
L112
4412A
030

Pretty close; the L112 and the 4411 share the same woofer (128H) and Tweeter (044) however the L112 uses the LE5-12 mid and the 4411 uses the LE5-9 (edgewound voicecoil, ~3dB more efficient). The 4411 crossover network is much more complicated and sophisticated than the consumer L112.

You are also quite correct in that the 044 is a phenol impregnated textile dome with Aluminum vapor deposited on it (according to Giskard, in the later years they just painted them silver after the vapor deposition machine failed).


pdf shows 4411 044 to 18khz +-3 ,
and 4412/4410 035ti to 20khz +-2db

4411 has le5-9 mid and
4412 & 10 =104-h2

4410 & 12 seem to have a much larger port than the 4411 ?

appears that the 4410 & 12 are very close designs, while the 4411 is somewhat different ?
The 4411 preceeded the 4412. The 4411 was an early 80's model, the 4412 was a mid/late 80's model (if I recall correctly).

Zilch
12-16-2006, 09:59 AM
I actually did read all those pdf's before deciding , but dont quite understand your 4411 statement.:confused:You'll read in the 4411 data sheet that it can be dialed "forward" to control monitor voicing, if desired.

From what I see, it's a control monitor in disguise. The crossover works very hard to tame the LE5-9 to "Studio Monitor" specs, and comparing the response curves, it's not as successful as 4412's more straightforward use of 104H, which has flatter response.

Want to "fix" L100 midrange? Look to the 4411 for ideas as to how to accomplish that. It's one reason I ultimately end up with the 4412 components every time I contemplate an L100 upgrade. There's new (to me) info in the recent L100 crossover thread to try, also.

You've still got to install a decent tweeter, so you may as well swap out the midrange for 104H-x and a better result as well. I'm doing other stuff with the woofers right now, more according to their design, with considerable success. More on that soon; Giskard's helping me with the crossover.

I really didn't want to take this 4412 thread into L100s; there's an important evolutionary relationship in evidence, tho, and 4411 is the link from this perspective....

mikebake
12-16-2006, 10:05 AM
No speaker can kill my Valencias!

:)

-Storm
Apparently you have never heard the mighty Control1 AW.

briang
12-16-2006, 10:13 AM
I really didn't want to take this 4412 thread into L100s; there's an important evolutionary relationship in evidence, tho, and 4411 is the link....

Zilch, your comment above just made the "Ah-ha" link for me.:)

jackgiff
12-16-2006, 02:34 PM
Are you insinuating that you went to the trouble of building a DIY 4430 that DEOSN'T sound better than the factory?? If so, why would you do that?Not at all Mike. But I might have saved some money buying a factory pair, and if they sound close, that wouldn't be a bad deal, would it?

Zilch
12-16-2006, 02:49 PM
Details of Jack's "Adaptive Reuse" of L200 cabs here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69187#post69187

Rosewood! :thmbsup:

[NOT OT! There's 4412s in the pic.... :p ]

SEAWOLF97
12-16-2006, 02:55 PM
well. decided to check Tower one last time. Parking was terrible. There was nothing of value left. Biggest name CD I could find was some obscure Elvis Costello disk. Bought some commercial cleaner/disinfectant.

They played music over Blose indoor/outdoor speakers. Some had sold signs on them , so if you do find a store with 4412s, they prolly will sell them

Titanium Dome
12-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Used the Tower closing sale as an excuse to get out of my GF's parents house for an hour in Campbell, CA yesterday. No JBLs anywhere, just junky plastic speakers hanging from the ceiling. Super ugly, they had Tower Records written on them. I'd have paid ten dollars just to knock them off the ceiling and stomp on them.

Most of the media stock was junk, though I spent as long as I could there and found some good stuff in the usual places: stuck in the back of the bin behind the last divider, discarded at the last moment in the crapola bin by the checkout line (lots of good stuff in there if you don't mind touching the rest of the crap), misplaced in the rap crap that they couldn't sell at $1.00 a pop.

I ended up with about $460 worth of stuff for $83 out the door, including a couple of Telarc discs and some SACDs lurking in the Dance/Techno section.

But no JBLs... :(

ballin100
12-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Just stopped by the Tower Records in West Covina, CA and purchased a pair of 120ti's for $85.00. Cab's should claen up okay. Needs surrounds. There are about 3 or 4 pair left.

briang
12-18-2006, 03:58 PM
Just stopped by the Tower Records in West Covina, CA and purchased a pair of 120ti's for $85.00. Cab's should claen up okay. Needs surrounds. There are about 3 or 4 pair left.

Feel free to get a second pair for me...I'm happy to make it worth your while...:)

opimax
12-18-2006, 09:11 PM
anybody willing to buy me a pair (or 2)? Certainly pay for time and effort...

oops! Didn't see Brian's response saying the same thing but i will be happy 2nd in line

Mark

LowPhreak
12-22-2006, 09:15 PM
Too bad there's no Tower's around here, I could use another pair of 4412's. :(

But yep, they just always sounded right to me. It won't hurt to update the XO's, wiring, and input posts tho', and take the mid & tweeter pots out of the line. That's what I'll be doing to them soon.

:bouncy:

SEAWOLF97
12-22-2006, 09:38 PM
Too bad there's no Tower's around here, I could use another pair of 4412's. :(

But yep, they just always sounded right to me. It won't hurt to update the XO's, wiring, and input posts tho', and take the mid & tweeter pots out of the line. That's what I'll be doing to them soon.

:bouncy:


Why ? Mine do sound right , right now.
Appears like you are making 4412A's with wood cabinets ?

LowPhreak
12-24-2006, 04:37 AM
Why ?...Appears like you are making 4412A's with wood cabinets ?

Well....no, not really. The speaker posts are basically crap on both models, so that's something that both could use improving. Besides, I'm probably going to add a 2nd pair for bi-wiring - something the 4412A doesn't have.

The internal wiring on the 4412A is no better than that of the 4412. I'm talking about using XLO's 6-nines copper so it's a definite upgrade.

Bypassing the mid/tweeter pots is about the only thing these will have most in common with the 4412A's (besides of course the drivers & cabinet size). Since the XO's can be made to give approximately the same FR curve as whatever settings on the pots I use, the pots are only adding another circuit to the chain that isn't needed - so out they will go.

The XO's would have to be modded or replaced to facilitate bi-wiring anyway, but an improvement can be made in the XO's over whatever improvements the 4412A XO's made over the 4412's - whether made to bi-wire or not. Yes, I could do it the easy way and just buy a set of 4412A XO's and not bi-wire, but with custom XO's I can have better components than the 4412A's have, and who wants to do things the easy way anyway? :blink: ;)

Actually, I wouldn't mind some day building a better (and perhaps slightly bigger) box for these entirely, and aligning the mids & tweeters a la 4410.

Zilch
12-24-2006, 10:03 AM
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t3%20ts.pdf

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/120Ti%20ts.pdf