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opimax
12-06-2006, 10:34 AM
Over thanksgiving I picked up a b460 sub, relaced the 2245 and all done, right? Nope, a friend at work gave me an article written by Lorr Kramer and Greg timbers in Audio magazine on 8/83 called New lows in home-built subwoofers.

In the article it describes how to build you own b460 cabinet,8 cubic feet, an even larger 12 ft and how you can put a 2235 in the 8 ft . It also speaks of cross overs and of course mentions the BX63.

I assumed that all i needed was to hook up and go using the Xover built into my Sony 9000 receiver (7 x 200). it turns out the B460 is designed to get a 6db bump at 26hz. I am sure many already knew this but I didn't.

I think at this point It would be quickest and easiest form set up to get a Velodyne SMS-1 unit which among other feature can be set that way. At some point I would like to own a bx63 but the Velodyne is easier to obtain.:banghead:

Has anybody else used this combo ?

Has anybody else used soemthing other than these 2 choices?

I am slightly concerned about draw on the amp once the boost is set in place. it is an Adcom gfa-555 2000w per channel, either 400 or 600 (can't find specs right now) bridged as how I use it. normally I would be quite comfy w/this power level but in today's music/movies I am not sure. in a loud movoe when bombs go off or the 1812 overture I don't want to fry anything w/a peak and that peak has an additional 6db :blah: :blah:

Thanks

Mark
PS is this the "proper" location for this thread? please move as appropriate

Zilch
12-06-2006, 11:17 AM
The subject article is available in the LH libraray:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/1983-subs.htm

Worth mentioning is that DIY B380 is in there near the end, as well, though the port is different from the actual product.

BX63A is an easy DIY build. I consider B380 and B460 usable without one, but they need infrasonic protection if used at high SPL.

I easily modified 5235 for the 26 Hz Q=2 "bump" in 8,118 and 13,182 here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901

Soime plate amps (e.g., Parts Express) come with built-in bass management EQ which can be set to provide the requisite filter....

matsj
12-06-2006, 11:50 AM
Buy a Dbx Driverack and you can use it in the hole freqvency, not only in sub area.
I donīt think Sms-1 is bad ,but there is more than sub bass.

regards mats

Mr. Widget
12-06-2006, 01:31 PM
I think at this point It would be quickest and easiest form set up to get a Velodyne SMS-1 unit which among other feature can be set that way. At some point I would like to own a bx63 but the Velodyne is easier to obtain.:banghead: I'd go with the Velodyne... it will allow you so much greater control over your sub... it is several generations away from the old BX63... it allows you to really maximize the woofer/room integration.


Widget

opimax
12-06-2006, 03:15 PM
1st thanks for the replys. I have done a little research and think I will go w/the original plan. Normal every day use wll be the Velodyne but for extended 2 channel I will try the 63a once I can find one. I am enjoying collecting the ti line so I want the 63 for that reason alone, maybe like it once I hear it :applaud:

This sub replaced a Velodyne SPL1200r and probably a second 1200r which I was going to purchase. I was surprised how well the 12 inch did compred to the 18 JBL. the 1200r has a good portion of the SMS built into it hoping tht is 1 reason why it sounds so good. If I can apply those same features to this sub even better :) . I think i need that 6db boost, at least so far w/just ear measurements. I might be a semi bass head I am begining to realize :) It is a home theater style and when I do watch movies don't need no stinkin Butt Shakers,lol. They aren't musical and music is first in my system.

The sms has an adjustable subsonic filter so that should take care of Zilch's observation, thanks for mentioning. any other quick and dirty adjustments, mods or other hints? I already have 2 adcom gfa-555 so getting a plate amp shouldn't be needed.

I have heard of DBX years ago, did they do something like electronic timing and imaging reverb ish stuff ? kind of like Hughes SRS and BBE ?

Lastly I happen to have a 2nd (origianlly in the box when purchased) 2245. back of my mind maybe a 2nd albeit home made b460? have the amp, have the speaker. Need a piece of foam, couple chunks of wood and voila 2nd 18 incher. The SMS can control multiple subs :applaud: :applaud:. Doubt it but it is a nice motivatioal thought to me, a goal

Mark

ps I will be looking at those threads later you linked Zilch, I will see what easy is to me on building the 63a . that would be "fun" project if I am able to do it

Mark

Mr. Widget
12-06-2006, 03:20 PM
Normal every day use wll be the Velodyne but for extended 2 channel I will try the 63a once I can find one.For critical "high fidelity" listening I wouldn't put either the Velodyne or the BX63 in the high pass signal path.


Widget

opimax
12-06-2006, 04:33 PM
Widget,

Sincerly appreciate the input but I find I am lacking bass with out a sub. in another thread I explained that a little. I don't find the 250 a bassy speaker. could be the input(bass management in the receiver), most likely the room, maybe some stiff surrounds...

I have heard many times KISS , keep it simple including the signal path but even crossed as low as 50 or 40 it makes a large difference with out the sub (to me)

I have played w/the bass management on 2 different receivers w/the same results.

I think when I put the 250 back together I could switch positions w/the 120 and see if the results change

Mark

Mr. Widget
12-06-2006, 04:59 PM
No, I wasn't suggesting to that you disconnect the sub for high fidelity... simply that you not run the high pass section of your signal through the crossover... anyway, it would appear your instincts were correct. Giskard just informed me that the BX63 uses a passive circuit for the high pass section so it would likely be fine used "as is" in a high fidelity system.


Widget

Don Mascali
12-06-2006, 06:40 PM
I have used B380 clones that I built in 1984 using info from that Audio article. With enough power they are impressive and a single B460 probably is capable of higher output.

I have found through many placements, that with boundry reinforcement the bump filter really isn't needed. If you live in the size room most of us real people live in room gain will do the job quite well. Using a typical H/T receiver you can use the sub output to drive that Adcom and most have an equalizer to trim things up a bit.

I live in Haymarket and would love to discuss this and JBL in general with you. I will Send a PM with my number to use if you wish.

Good listening,

Don M

opimax
12-07-2006, 08:58 AM
I will call you today as soon as I get a chance, damn job gets in the way of quality music ,lol

Mark

soundboy
12-07-2006, 01:13 PM
I have had for many years two seperate systems with 2245H/BX63A's....and I wouldn't do anything else. One has 600 watts driving it, the other "only" 200 watts.....I am a long time live sound/musician/speaker nut....and I never even clip the 200 watt amp....it shakes my whole house with tight, deep, clean bass. The BX63A's are set at 80 and 90 hz, and the power supplies, high pass/low pass have all been modified with black gate and claritycaps...incredible improvement top and bottom...I can crank Level 42, and Mark Kings bass rattles the picture frames in my bathroom at the other end of the house. My amps are modified Adcoms, and they do just fine. I shouldn't be going on about it, because I would love another BX63, and I may be bidding against you for the next one!:blink:...just my two cents....there isn't a 12" on the planet that can move the air the 2245H can, with as low distortion....and ported correctly, I will always choose vented over a low Q (or ANY Q) sealed box....too dry, unrealistic to my ears, and I don't like boomy colored bass, I just like real kick and bass sounds at reasonable levels.....and, oh yeah, they sound great for dvd's as well...scary how low and powerful they are....

mrbluster
12-07-2006, 05:04 PM
I agree with the limitations concerning the transparency of the BX63s' high pass. Was wondering If you could provide more details on what you did to improve yours.

Zilch
12-07-2006, 06:31 PM
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/BX63A%20ts.pdf

soundboy
12-07-2006, 08:01 PM
As I mentioned in my first post, I replaced the output coupling caps with claritycaps...origonally they have a polyprope with a small polystyrene bypass....not bad, but not uncolored....I am not sure if the Mundorf silver oils wouldnt be even better, though my experience with the beautiful sounding claritycaps has been excellent. Just slightly warmer than a straight bypass, and little loss of fine detail...they sound great:blah::blah::blah: Upgrading the low filter was a huge improvement, especially changing out the electrolytic blocking caps with 5uf or so polyprope. I used some old 5uf 450v siderealkaps I had from the parts bin...earlier version of the new auricaps (one of the same designers, anyway)....the high pass is only as colored as the caps you use...and you have to use a cap, right? A lot of guys use crossovers with ICs, caps, rf filters, low filters, etc...so this is a decent option, I think.

opimax
12-28-2006, 07:01 PM
I have installed the SMS inbetween the Adcom and b460. WhenI auto eq the setup the only changes made to the curve is a 1.5 db boost at 50hz. When I did this at my brother's place using a Mirage sub the curve was all over the place w/ a 6db boost (max) at 20 to -11.5 at 40 and raised again up to 200. major diference between the 2 setups. His sub was 125 on ebay while I paid close to 1500 for amp and sub. Still I am very impressed at how little the eq was modded for my set up :applaud:.


I have a question on the connection of the SMS. step 4 under step bystep installation talks about connecting the SMS EQ output to inputs on the amp. I don't follow the "need" for this part. I guess it suppose to go on the tape monitor and have some input to the all the time or does it go to a standard unused input and used only when setting up the SMS ?

Mark

Mr. Widget
12-28-2006, 07:49 PM
I have a question on the connection of the SMS. step 4 under step bystep installation talks about connecting the SMS EQ output to inputs on the amp. I don't follow the "need" for this part.This is how the SMS self generated test tones get into your system so that the auto EQ can work... without these calibrated test tones the system wouldn't work.


Widget

opimax
12-29-2006, 11:00 AM
Currenntly have the unit connect in a simplified manner LFE (sub) out from from 7.1 receiver single RCA connector to one connector on #17 input lfe in SMS1 (mislabled as "these XLR input jacks are for line level" are not XLR?), out to Adcomm 555 bridged to 460. the way the it currently is hooked up there is no whole system but just sub eq ing.

Running the output of the sms to receiver to generate a tone for the whole system rather then just the sub is done by this connection and it is used mainly to balance the the sub against the rest of the sytem is how I currently understand it. if this is correct I belive I should hook the inputs to an unused connnection (laser disk in my case) and use this mode (input) for tuning my whole system only.

But if the SMS is supposed to control some of the low output from the main system and the sub concurrently during regular listening(is this right using the only the subout as input?) this won't work becausethe SMS (laser disk) must be the choosen and no other input will work at the same time.

In order to use the return line level connection would it be similar to the same was a Blose 901 eq through the tape monitor and constinly in use, since it is a receiver not a pre and main amp. In my case I do not want to use the internal xo, I will use the one in the receiver which I can't turn off. Also they say you can biamp using the the 80hz but I already am. I run my 250 full range so no 80 XO anyway.


I think after rereading this and the supplied instuctions a few times I am confused on the return connection and its purpose. to use it for a 1 time setup or in constant use. If constant use what purpose? what pupose for my set up? how to hook up for constant use in my system?


I know I can go to other sites for this but I am comfy here,

Thanks

Mark
PS MODS I am kind of blogging my system on this thread, is that OK? if not I will stop, lust let me know
assuming yes

Pretty much finished physical install of Charge coupled XO, couple of screw holes to plug which have nothing to grab. maybe paint additional mounting piece black someday. installed new 104s, need new gaskets. New 108s are ordered from Harmon, waiting, put the orginals back in now. Thought I could use the 44 tweeters from 120ti while waiting for originals to come back coated but they mount differently so I hooked up some spare tweeters sitting on top. units off to the side running radio quietly when not home to break in any new parts added. Foam for 14s arrived, waiting a week plus for my friend to "help" ,lol.

Lost 1 screw for mounting 44 from inside and 1 screw from 104, foolish :)
Cleaned off old gasket from 108 w/butter knife and Goo Gone, not the best but did work eventually. used GE silicon II glue for sealing wires in sub cabinets, might be too soft but hope not real critical for what it was used for.

Mr. Widget
12-29-2006, 02:24 PM
I am busy at the moment... if no one helps clear this up for you, send me a PM.


Widget

opimax
12-31-2006, 08:07 AM
no hurry at all, appreciate any comments whenever I get them. I may play around w/this part today.... or not :) , many items on the the set up need attention. May try to get the fire place going for example (gas) or work w/1 of the adcoms to determine if it has a buzz, there are many more details to work out...

If the system was down due to this I might be a little more excited but it works and I continue to have an adequate sound even though I am using some spare Dahlquist DQ 28s while waiting for my tweeters... :)

Mark

Rusnzha
12-31-2006, 10:53 PM
Am using an SMS-1 with my 2241/Hypex plate amp. You can't go wrong with this set up. The only mistake I made when I first got it was to set it flat between 20 and 80hz. It didn't sound that great. Use it to extend your low end, but keep the anomolies between 20 and 80hz. It sounds better with them than without them.

I went a little crazy looking at whole system EQ vs. sub EQ. I finally settled on sub EQ. Different music makes different demands. I just adjust the bass level on the SMS-1 to taste. The increments are small enough to dial it in precisely.

opimax
01-01-2007, 09:30 AM
thanks for the reply. At midnight on New Years I am on the a 44 page thread on the AVS forum about the SMS, I really need to change my life style LOL. I also down loaded the Outlaw version of the owner's manual. I think I have all my questions answered and as soon as I get my lazy a$$ out of this chair i will hook up using whole system and start playing!!

Mark

opimax
01-09-2007, 06:51 PM
update of my system

Sunday I got the 250 running w/the tweeters from the rear 120. I brought down another pair of L20t to use until all tweeters are home. I had some alum 44s and used their covers to mount the 44tis in the 250s. Looks a little unusual w/the pitted silver tweeters :) .

I then ran the subwoofer tuning through the system (20 -200hz sweep) and this is where I was dissapointed. I have a noise in 1 LE14h-1. Giskard has said he can get a new replacement and I have asked to. It is only audible if I cross the speaker over under a 100 or so. I am trying to be patiant.

I have new 108s, 1 new 104, 1 new to me 104, the "borrowed" tweeters and the new charge coupled XO installed. these speaker are awsome!! :applaud:I am impressed. They a little bright but the Aquaplas coating will bring that down just a bit when they originals are reinstalled.

I have brought the Velodyne SPL1200r back down to the listening room. I am hearing too much noise using the SMS-1, Adcom gfa-555, and the b460. I also think the 1200 plays lower. they are both hooked up and I am yet to play and make a final decesion on which will stay hooked up.

Lastly, I just won the auction for 2 44ti tweeters. I have aquired the final driver for the center channel I have planned. I need to get some speakers reconed and/or maybe get 1 tweeter Aquaplased and then I willl need much help with design of box and XO, MUCH :)

Anybody have some 120Tis to sell?

Mark

Mr. Widget
04-16-2007, 12:40 AM
Velodyne SMS-1 Update


I used one of these last week with a pair of Sub1500s... outstanding.

Within a few minutes the subs were sounding better than I have ever heard them. I highly recommend this crossover/EQ unit.

My only gripe is that the manual and rear panel labeling are designed for the complete neophyte so it can be a little confusing to someone looking for highpass/lowpass or other "normal" outputs etc., but once you get past that, the thing has immense control and didn't get in the way of the sound. We only had it in the sub's signal path though... I'd be hesitant to use it's high pass filter.


Widget

Rusnzha
04-16-2007, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget

Velodyne SMS-1 Update


I used one of these last week with a pair of Sub1500s... outstanding.




Did you (A) set it flat or did you (B) just bring up the lowest octave and keep the anomalies in the rest of the range the sub 1500s were playing in. I tried both when setting up my 2241H. I liked choice B better.