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Thom
12-01-2006, 09:31 AM
Whats the story on the 2435?
Hotest new driver out there?
Piece of crap?
If the information is all out their then sorry to have to waste peoples time but I spent quite a bit of time looking and found little. Does it ever get used with a horn or just a wave guide and just what is a wave guide anyway. Does a wave guide provide loading or just directivity? Is one good or would you want 3 like JBL uses? What is it's range, assuming a proper horn. If you put one in a 300hz horn would that be a joke? I saw some stuff where JBL said flat to 15k and I saw some grumbling about it's top end. Besides being small so JBL can fit 3 side by side what does it have going for it? What are they worth? Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you
Thom

4313B
12-01-2006, 09:33 AM
Whats the story on the 2435?
Hotest new driver out there?
Piece of crap?MSRP on the 2435 is $1,399 each.
The replacement diaphragms are $756 each.
Someone not too long ago was selling brand new 435Be's for less than the cost of 2435 replacement diaphragms. G.T. has gotten his 435Be's on his custom horns to deliver -6 dB at 20 kHz and says he likes them just fine. The cost for the right horns for these compression drivers in a home hi-fi environment isn't trivial (I think the MSRP for these drivers and horns is a little shy of $4,000 a pair). The waveguides work just fine for SR.

Incidentally, the 435Be compression drivers were too expensive to use in the Array Series or the K2-S5800. They can only be found in the K2-S9800.

Thom
12-01-2006, 10:53 AM
Is there a spec sheet? If one has the drivers and wishes to use them in a home system are you saying that 1k is the lower limit? What is the proper horn or whatever for a home system? All I have been able to find is mention of them as part of a profesionel unit.

Zilch
12-01-2006, 11:13 AM
Find more than you want to know here, including the engineering specs:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901

See also:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6050

I'm using them, RobH, Guido, Speakerdave, others too....

4313B
12-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Here's my commentary, while the work is still fresh. We haven't sorted it all out yet, but there were some surprises:

Post #2: The size of the back cap is not the big deal with respect to low-end response we thought it was, at least insofar as frequency response is concerned. Whether the smaller-can 2431 and 2435 sound any good below 1 kHz is another matter. On an appropriate horn, they'll at least play down there.Let's see some impedance curves of the 435Be and 2435 under identical conditions so we can put this to rest once and for all. Also, both drivers under identical conditions on your plane wave tube.

All I have been able to find is mention of them as part of a profesionel unit.That's because they are Pro drivers. Zilch can hook you up with some decent SR horns for your 2435's.

Zilch
12-01-2006, 12:12 PM
I run them at 1 kHz on 2352 horns. They certainly do well at the high end on those.

I've tried 800 Hz on the smaller waveguides, and 1.2 kHz sounds appreciably better.

People look at that 2435/2352 combo and point out those horns are good for much lower than where I run them, down to 500 Hz, probably.

Well, fine, maybe. I've learned to listen to what JBL engineers say is appropriate. Someone else can make an alternative determination if they like.

Me, I'm working with 2452H-SL, and getting to the point where I can A/B them, now having a second pair of 2352s.

I don't have any of the high-end consumer horns, though I'm trying to acquire one or more for comparison, as is at least one other member here.

There's also the NLA TAD horn....

4313B
12-01-2006, 12:41 PM
People look at that 2435/2352 combo and point out those horns are good for much lower than where I run them, down to 500 Hz, probably.

Well, fine, maybe. I've learned to listen to what JBL engineers say is appropriate. Someone else can make an alternative determination if they like.Doug said 1 kHz for the 2435. He designed it. I have not directly compared impedance curves and plane wave tube responses of both drivers.

Guido
12-01-2006, 02:09 PM
I need to bring this up again as it isn't sorted out yet and here is the chance.

The 435Be is aquaplased and do not use ferrofluid? This I don't know for sure
The 2435 isn't aquaplased and do use ferrofluid, this I know

4313B
12-01-2006, 02:42 PM
I need to bring this up again as it isn't sorted out yet and here is the chance.

The 435Be is aquaplased and do not use ferrofluid? This I don't know for sure
The 2435 isn't aquaplased and do use ferrofluid, this I knowYes. The 435Be is aquaplased. The 2435 is not.

The backcans actually don't matter at all. The problem was that the original units had their compliances glued which resulted in higher than desired Fs values. It had nothing to do with the backcans as was originally reported during initial Project May conversations. I distinctly remember one conversation at that time wherein a JBL engineer admitted that he hadn't been paying much attention to what Pro had been doing in recent years.

The 1 kHz limit on the 2435 is imposed by Pro because Pro would blow them up if used lower. In fact, in a home environment they can and do go down to ~ 750 Hz on the right horn, same as the 435Be.

Let's see some impedance curves of the 435Be and 2435 under identical conditions so we can put this to rest once and for all. Also, both drivers under identical conditions on your plane wave tube.Not necessary if one has a unit that was manufactured in the last couple of years. The 435Be has the smoother overall response due to the aquaplas coating. Fs for both should be quite similar.

I guess we now know where the backcan thing came from as well as why the 435Be is more desireable from a JBL Consumer perspective. Funny how it all shakes out over time.

I've tried 800 Hz on the smaller waveguides, and 1.2 kHz sounds appreciably better.Yeah, you really need to get the right pair of horns. I won't say anything more on that subject for the time being.

Robh3606
12-01-2006, 03:19 PM
Yes. The 435Be is aquaplased. The 2435 is not.

Hello Giskard

Yes but what about the ferrofluid?? Do both drivers use it???


Rob:)

Thom
12-01-2006, 03:44 PM
I've only had a chance to barely skim all the information you have made available to me. It will be much help. Many thanks.

X_X
12-01-2006, 04:07 PM
Yeah, you really need to get the right pair of horns.


Zilch,

Did you see all the horns in the tent sale?? The good stuff!

Nathan.

Zilch
12-01-2006, 04:19 PM
Did you see all the horns in the tent sale?? The good stuff!Yup. Thank you, Nathan. Got my second pair of 2352s there a couple of weeks ago. :thmbsup:

Thom
12-01-2006, 05:37 PM
I'm having trouble seeing what makes this thing so special if you're not trying to put three of them in a shoe box, but I'd be the first to admit that I sometimes overlook things. I'd sure rather carry one up a hill than a 2445 but that's not exactly the point. I jumped when I saw beryllium but from what I have read so far their results were somewhat different thanTad's. Their goal must also have been as I'm sure they're quite competant. Or have I read wrong. I thought the purpose of beryllium was extended highs.
Also, in a home enviroment, is ferrofluid a plus or a minus? Isn't it primarily a heat conduit? JBL has a picture of the diaphragm at 15k and the surface isn't broken up but that's not what I get from the scant reviews?

Do the horn adapters always have to be used with a smaller driver and larger horn and never the other way?

Zilch
12-01-2006, 06:00 PM
Down-adapting creates a resonant chamber. I have never measured the consequences, though I doubt they'd be desirable.

It's beryllium what makes them special.

They are not TADs.

Bottom line of my experience is they do not "push" gracefully much beyond the pistonic mode.

That's plenty high on the right horns or waveguides, tho....

4313B
12-02-2006, 05:18 AM
It's beryllium what makes them special.It's beryllium that makes them special.
Bottom line of my experience is they do not "push" gracefully much beyond the pistonic mode.Meaningless statement. Use the driver as intended instead of how you think it should be used or how you wish it could be used.
I run them at 1 kHz on 2352 horns. They certainly do well at the high end on those.The 2435? That's fine although I'm still clueless as to why you bother with all these Pro horns/waveguides.
That's plenty high on the right horns or waveguides, tho....While we both see the inherent value in a great two-way, we clash dramatically in our views on how that can be achieved. Like I've said before Zilch, I'm just not interested in quick & dirty. It simply isn't the JBL way. I know, I know, plenty of people seem to love it anyway.

That was a nice thread you and Mr. Widget did. I missed it. Mr. Widget, Steve Schell and whgeiger had some great points.

Yes but what about the ferrofluid?? Do both drivers use it???I'll ask on Monday. If you want, I can coat your 2435 diaphragms at the same time I coat your other diaphragms. Or you can just eBay them and I'll get you a pair of the 435Be's. It's up to you.

4313B
12-02-2006, 07:52 AM
I don't have any of the high-end consumer horns, though I'm trying to acquire one or more for comparison, as is at least one other member here.Mr. Widget has one of the H9800 horns. The other stuff is generally not available and probably shouldn't be mentioned at this time. I doubt there will be much interest anyway since those horns actually cost money and 435Be's to bolt onto them can't be found in dumpsters. Mr. Widget has already said it wouldn't be cost effective to make horn clones available on this forum. From what I've seen I have to agree. I had thought it would have been really cool to get a dozen or two run off for forum members interested in such things. Some of you could have ended up with some really cool systems.

Here, go play with this circuit for awhile.

Thom
12-02-2006, 10:16 AM
It's beryllium that makes them special.Meaningless statement. Use the driver as intended instead of how you think it should be used or how you wish it could be used.The 2435?

Then, what does make it special (special not expensive)? if you don't need to lift it with your pinky or put three in a shoe box?

Mr. Widget
12-02-2006, 10:25 AM
Then, what does make it special (special not expensive)? if you don't need to lift it with your pinky or put three in a shoe box?:blink:

For a diaphragm you want stiff and light to get the best response, especially at higher frequencies... Beryllium is stiffer and lighter than just about anything... it is #4 on the atomic chart. (hydrogen being #1) The reason that it isn't the only material used is that it is costly to produce, toxic to manufacture, and relatively rare...


Widget

4313B
12-02-2006, 10:43 AM
What Mr. Widget said coupled with it simply being a real nice smooth sound. That's what makes it special - no "hash, grit and false dynamics due to diaphragm breakup". He always cracks me up. Blunt likes blunt.

Zilch
12-02-2006, 02:31 PM
Here, go play with this circuit for awhile.I'm messing up somewhere, 'cause highpass doesn't roll off until 200 Hz:

[It's the 1.5 Ohm + 0.1 mH doing it, I think. No C in there? 1 mH, maybe?]

4313B
12-02-2006, 03:15 PM
I'm messing up somewhere, 'cause highpass doesn't roll off until 200 Hz:

[It's the 1.5 Ohm + 0.1 mH doing it, I think. No C in there? 1 mH, maybe?]Nope, you have it right. Just stick it on a 2435 and horn of your choice and measure it with 1 or 2 volts input.

Post the result, SPL and Impedance.

If you want, post the .mls and .sini files too along with actual voltage and mic distance.

Guido
12-06-2006, 03:27 AM
Zilch, did you manage to test this filter?

Robh3606
12-06-2006, 04:57 AM
Hello Guido

Looks good in Crossover Shop. If I had a spare horn laying around I would give it a whirl.

Rob:)

4313B
12-06-2006, 05:48 AM
Looks good in Crossover Shop.Sounds better in real life than it looks in LEAP according to the designer of the Everest II. ;) And it looks pretty nice in LEAP.

Too bad JBL doesn't make these horns available but I guess I understand the desire to sell a $30,000 pair of loudspeakers instead of a $1,000 pair of horns. MSRP on the 435Be/horn combo is $2,690 a pair. Compare to the $2,798 MSRP on a pair of 2435's. Send me a PM if you want any.

Zilch
12-06-2006, 10:44 AM
Zilch, did you manage to test this filter?Maybe later today, on my "horn of choice." ;)

Guido
12-06-2006, 02:31 PM
Any news with the ferrofluid question?
Thanks

Zilch
12-06-2006, 06:19 PM
HF alone is windowed, Full range, not.

-6 dB @16.2 kHz, -10 dB @19.7 kHz.

8-Ohm L-Pad used to balance with LF in full range. Should be 6 Ohms, as I recall.

LF filter is N3134, 1 kHz.

I can dial it flat from 300 Hz up within +/- 2 dB. Just sounds a bit bright to me balanced like that, is all.

Impedance, bottom.

[How does it DO that? :dont-know]

4313B
12-06-2006, 08:22 PM
To be fair the circuit is designed specifically for the 435Be. The 2435 isn't aquaplased so it won't be quite as smooth. You would have to tweak it abit.

Since I last heard these the 045Be's have been turned off. The 435AL in the 880 Array center channel has been replaced with a 435Be. The 435Be's are running with the circuit posted above (charge coupled of course) actively crossed over at ~ 750 Hz and are 6 dB down at 20 kHz. This is the current pinnacle version of the 12-inch 2-way. The final step is to replace the 435Be's with 476Be's and six of them have just been taken off the shelf for that very purpose. Curves were ran to match pairs but that was proven unnecessary.

For my personal system I've decided to go with the 1500AL's instead of the 1200FE's.

Zilch
12-06-2006, 08:32 PM
So, active filter does the highpass; this is the compensation filter?

I.e., don't crank this without rolling off the low end at some desired frequency and slope (between 800 Hz and 1.2 kHz for 2435HPL, perhaps,) to blend with the LF?

4313B
12-06-2006, 08:41 PM
So, active filter does the highpass; this is the compensation filter?Or passive, pick either. Start with an 8 to 10 uF capacitor for passive and change until it looks and sounds right.
[I.e., don't crank this without rolling off the low end at some desired frequency and slope to blend with the LF?]Well yeah. If you're going to listen to it for any length of time you'll have to come up with some kind of blend with a woofer. If I recall you have active filters on hand.
Just stick it on a 2435 and horn of your choice and measure it with 1 or 2 volts input.You aren't going to blow it with 1 or 2 V.

Zilch
12-06-2006, 08:47 PM
COOL! :thmbsup:

Thanks, Giskard!!

Zilch
12-06-2006, 10:12 PM
First order passive, 12 uF, Blue.

It wants second order for this combination, looks like, but it's mighty fine listening for right now. :yes:

I'll try active tomorrow....

Mr. Widget
12-06-2006, 10:28 PM
...designed specifically for the 435Be. The 2435 isn't aquaplased so it won't be quite as smooth...Here is a comparison I ran comparing the 435Be with the 2435... they are very similar, but the 435Be does appear to be a bit flatter in response. Aquaplas? That may be it... No ferro fluid? That may be it...


Widget

Guido
12-07-2006, 03:32 AM
Zilch, your "Horn of choice" is the H9800?

Could you do some research with an available horn?

OK I'm still thinking about this 2,6 k$ offer but meanwhile....

4313B
12-07-2006, 06:31 AM
First order passive, 12 uF, Blue.

It wants second order for this combination, looks like, but it's mighty fine listening for right now. :yes:

I'll try active tomorrow....Usually one would combine a second order electrical with the second order acoustic roll-off.
Here is a comparison I ran comparing the 435Be with the 2435... they are very similar, but the 435Be does appear to be a bit flatter in response. Aquaplas? That may be it... No ferro fluid? That may be it...I really don't get what the "deal" is with the aquaplas. We all know now that the aquaplased diaphragms are smoother in response so can we stop hashing over it? The 435Be is aquaplased and the 2435 is not. The 2435 is designed for high quality sound reinforcement while the 435Be is designed for high quality home systems. Pick your poison. David Smith already pointed out that it was highly unlikely one would be able to see much of a difference on a graph between an aquaplased diaphragm and a non-aquaplased diaphragm. Greg said the same thing. I've confirmed that several times over now. One can hear the difference. Or, I should say, some people can hear the difference and respond positively to that difference.

4313B
12-07-2006, 06:36 AM
Zilch, your "Horn of choice" is the H9800?Mr. Widget ran the H9800 over to Zilch the day after I posted that. I'm not real sure why unless Mr. Widget is gearing up to run a bunch off for various forum members who can afford them. The H9800 is currently next to impossible to source. JBL is going to sell K2-S9800's rather than just the horns that go in them. My comment was directed at the horns Zilch already had on hand with the intent that he would see the circuit, a light bulb would go on, and he would modify it as desired/required if it was of interest. It was not intended for him to "let the cat out of the bag" and post pictures and yet more graphs in the "Perfect Loudspeaker" thread
OK I'm still thinking about this 2,6 k$ offer but meanwhile....That is MSRP and not an offer. If anyone is actually interested send me a PM.

Zilch
12-07-2006, 12:24 PM
Could you do some research with an available horn?Which horn would you like to see? I'm not doing them all.... :p


It's already been done and it was done in an anechoic chamber to boot. Besides, you really need to do your own research. What Zilch researches is fine for him.In constructing this compensation filter, I did considerable juggling with stock values to make it happen. I'll post a tentative parts list; perhaps Giskard will have some suggestions as to alternative parts to build with.

In any case, it's not all that expensive to put together and try with an alternative horn of your own choice, but this particular network is optimized for one specific driver/horn combination; others will require adjustments.


My comment was directed at the horns Zilch already had on hand with the intent that he would see the circuit, a light bulb would go on, and he would modify it as desired/required if it was of interest.The primary illumination thus far being to let the driver do what it was designed to do. Know (or learn) the limits, stay within them, and the result can be quite satisfying.

*****

There's no conspiracy here. The desires and priorities regarding the 1.5" drivers are shared among many forum members....

4313B
12-07-2006, 01:09 PM
Which horn would you like to see? I'm not doing them all.... :pHe's already been offered the best available horn and I have the anechoic response to go with it.

Like I said several times already, I really didn't want to get into this for another month or two...

Zilch
12-07-2006, 06:39 PM
Responding to two specific requests for measurements of this compensation network with 243x drivers on other horns/waveguides, HF alone is windowed, full range is not.

Robh3606
12-07-2006, 06:43 PM
Hello Zilch

You are going to have to tweek it for each horn to get the most out of it.

Rob:)

4313B
12-07-2006, 06:54 PM
I just finished talking to someone else on the phone about this. So your quest is to find a cheap combination 2-way that can go from 20 Hz to 20 kHz? That's what all this is about?

Have you thought about doing something like Ron Gold did?

You could come up with some DIY kits and maybe even some completed systems to sell.

How are those active cards coming that I gave you the schematic to? Any luck with that compensation curve?

Zilch
12-07-2006, 07:29 PM
You are going to have to tweek it for each horn to get the most out of it.Apparently so, Rob.

None of them are terrible, but none are "right," either.... :p

Zilch
12-07-2006, 08:04 PM
I just finished talking to someone else on the phone about this. So your quest is to find a cheap combination 2-way that can go from 20 Hz to 20 kHz? That's what all this is about?The quest is to learn how this all works, and how to use it successfully, to whatever end. Two-way is the platform, because it's manageable.

Advancing technology is rendering a workable two-way more achievable, and I typically have several implementations underway.

You lob something like this compensation network my way, I stop and investigate it, 'cause it's mainstream to the endeavor. Same with H9800 - What's better? Why?

[Others are on this path, it seems, disconnecting their tweeters.... :thmbsup:]


Have you thought about doing something like Ron Gold did?

You could come up with some DIY kits and maybe even some completed systems to sell.Yes, as a matter of course. I don't know if anything will ever come of this, tho, or whether I want another business with all the burden that entails. This is an academic pursuit, for now, and it's nowhere close to "there" yet, in any case.


How are those active cards coming that I gave you the schematic to? Any luck with that compensation curve?I've got to get the measurements on the drivers to you first for the passive network. That has priority -- like you, I'm juggling a bunch of them priority things here lately.... :p

4313B
12-07-2006, 08:35 PM
The quest is to learn how this all works, and how to use it successfully. Two-way is the platform, because it's manageable.

Advancing technology is rendering a workable two-way more achievable, and I typically have several implementations underway.

You lob something like this compensation network my way, I stop and investigate it, 'cause it's mainstream to the endeavor. Same with H9800 - what's better? Why?

[Others are on this path, it seems.... :thmbsup:]

Yes, as a matter of course. I don't know if anything will ever come of it, tho, or whether I want another business with all the burden that entails. This is an academic pursuit, for now, and it's not there yet, in any case.Wouldn't this all be better served on a personal website? That very question has been asked by quite a few people since the Q & D 4430 thing started. Some have said that it's like a personal blog and really has nothing to do with Lansing Heritage at all. Of course we all know that really doesn't mean much anymore now that pretty much anything goes here.

As for workable 2-ways, they've been around quite a long time Zilch. Really. I wouldn't lie to you. You typically have several implementations underway for what? Do you have clients asking for this stuff? Why are we involved too?

I don't know, it just seems like a whole ton of spinning wheels and paperwork to sift through and it seems to pop up in pretty much every thread anymore. The Pros already know how to use all the Pro gear.

Others are on what path? I don't see anyone else really participating. It's kind of weird.

I don't know. It just seems bizzare. Alot of this stuff should probably be in a journal somewhere. I think you are lost in the pieces and can't enjoy the summation.

I think you're a curve junkie. :dont-know

I keep waiting for you to yell "Eureka!" and pick something to enjoy for awhile. I wish I could help you somehow.

I've got to get the measurements on the drivers to you first.Ok. Whenever you are ready. This was for the 12-inch 2-way right?

Mr. Widget
12-07-2006, 08:55 PM
Mr. Widget ran the H9800 over to Zilch the day after I posted that. I'm not real sure why unless Mr. Widget is gearing up to run a bunch off for various forum members who can afford them.No... I have no particular interest in making these horns. I have been asked on several occasions if I would do a run of them. When I have asked for people to place a deposit the interest seems to dissipate. That is fine by me... poor John W. had to wait about a month for a set of relatively simple plots and the speaker project I am currently working on has been underway for slightly over two years!


Widget

Zilch
12-07-2006, 08:55 PM
Ok. Whenever you are ready. This was for the 12-inch 2-way right?Correct. The active's for that, too.

Guido
12-08-2006, 03:38 AM
I would say I'm a DIY junky and probably we all are somehow. It's just damned fun!

The reason why I jumped on this thread is that I'm occasionally workin on a M9500 Style project since 2 years. I want to follow only the basic idea of the M9500. I want to have the current Be Drivers in it.
That's why I bought 2 2435HPL Drivers. Since then I'm searching crossover possibilities and Horns.

You published a nice compensation filter for the Be Driver
I have nice active JBL synthesis crossovers for the Woofer - HF filter
The horn problem is also solved now

So this thread helped me a lot to go further with my MTM project.

Thanks!

4313B
12-08-2006, 04:48 AM
When I have asked for people to place a deposit the interest seems to dissipate.Sounds familiar.

That is fine by me... poor John W. had to wait about a month for a set of relatively simple plots and the speaker project I am currently working on has been underway for slightly over two years!Yeah well look how long it takes a team at JBL to come up with something and it's their day job.

4313B
12-08-2006, 04:59 AM
I would say I'm a DIY junky and probably we all are somehow. It's just damned fun!True. It is damned fun.
The reason why I jumped on this thread is that I'm occasionally workin on a M9500 Style project since 2 years. I want to follow only the basic idea of the M9500. I want to have the current Be Drivers in it.

That's why I bought 2 2435HPL Drivers. Since then I'm searching crossover possibilities and Horns. You published a nice compensation filter for the Be Driver I have nice active JBL synthesis crossovers for the Woofer - HF filter The horn problem is also solved now.

So this thread helped me a lot to go further with my MTM project.

Thanks!You're welcome. All you had to do was ask me. I'll get you some stuff for your 2435's so you can have DIY 435Be's in addition to your horns.

So you are using dual LE14H-1's or LE14H-3's then?

Guido
12-08-2006, 07:49 AM
So you are using dual LE14H-1's or LE14H-3's then?

The LE's are not available here :(
Next idea was to use 2227 cores and recone to ME150 (info if this works is pending).
I might get 2 2227 cores. 2 missing though.

If nothing helps I go with 2234’s. Still nice woofers :)

Shouldn't I move this to another thread :dont-know

John W
12-08-2006, 08:02 AM
That is fine by me... poor John W. had to wait about a month for a set of relatively simple plots and the speaker project I am currently working on has been underway for slightly over two years!

Widget

No complaints here. I have plenty of items on the back burner that should have been gotten to a long time ago. I just appreciate the help.

DIY is the kicker for me too. I picked up a pair of 2435s recently and am itching to try them out in a few different ways, starting with a couple round horns to swap into “Big Blue”.

herve M
12-08-2006, 10:00 AM
True. It is damned fun.You're welcome. All you had to do was ask me. I'll get you some stuff for your 2435's so you can have DIY 435Be's in addition to your horns.

So you are using dual LE14H-1's or LE14H-3's then?


Like Guido, I have also a project inspired by M9500/DMS1.
2332 horn /2430 compression driver
two basket (no cone) 2217H
DSC280 processor with DMS1 compensation

The problem they are the woofer 144. Which is the best choice and which can one find? Second pair 2217h to buy?

HerveM

4313B
12-08-2006, 12:15 PM
Shouldn't I move this to another thread :dont-knowYeah, like DIY.

Next idea was to use 2227 cores and recone to ME150 (info if this works is pending).Yes, the 2227 and ME150H use the same motor structure and frame. - jm

Like Guido, I have also a project inspired by M9500/DMS1.


The problem they are the woofer 144. Which is the best choice and which can one find? Second pair 2217h to buy?The M9500 could be alot of fun. I can't advise you on the 2217H. I suspect it isn't going to give you the same bottom end you'd get with LE14H-3's but it should yield greater punch. I think a couple guys on this side of the pond are working on similar systems so maybe they can tell you more about 2217H's and 1400Nd's.

herve M
12-12-2006, 10:41 AM
may be the 2217h magnetic assembly it is compatible with the recone kit le14h3 ??

What thinks Zilch ???:hmm:

HerveM

Zilch
12-12-2006, 10:50 AM
What thinks Zilch ???:hmm:I have no clue.

That's a question for Giskard.... :yes:

Earl K
12-12-2006, 11:24 AM
may be the 2217h magnetic assembly it is compatible with the recone kit le14h3 ??

- Giskard put the necessary info ( to deduce an answer ) into the "Transducer Library" back in July ( of this year ).

- No , they're not the same ( or compatible with each others' cone kits ) .
- They ( 2217H vs le14H-3 ) have different thickness top-plates ( .32" vs .25" ) .
- They also have different BL figures which bodes poorly if one is thinking of trying to create a usable FrankenSpeaker from a stock 2217H ( ie; by adding a higher compliance foam surround as well as aquaplasing the cone for more weight ).



I have no clue.

That's a question for Giskard....

- Have you forgotten about the transducer library ? ;)

:)

4313B
12-12-2006, 11:41 AM
- Have you forgotten about the transducer library ?I haven't. I can't believe I bothered to scan and post all that effin' crap. What a rube! I could have had the kitchen cabinets refinished by now! :banghead: Project May too! :biting:

Earl K
12-12-2006, 11:59 AM
I haven't. I can't believe I bothered to scan and post all that effin' crap. What a rube!

- I do love that library .
- Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to post the scans .


:)

4313B
12-12-2006, 12:04 PM
- I do love that library .
- Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to post the scans .


:)My pleasure. :)

DavidF
12-12-2006, 01:42 PM
- I do love that library .
- Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to post the scans .


:)

I will second that. Your time is appreciated.

DavidF

Thom
12-12-2006, 01:57 PM
It is with great trepidation that I ask this. Actually that's overstated but figuring that part of the country seems to be low on fluoxetine I'm glad this isn't face to face for almost certainly there is someware I should have looked and am a retrograde for not having done so but: Is there a horn,available for reasonable money, that shows the 2435 to good light? Also, is the taper of a 2 inch horn important when selecting a 1 1/2 to 2 adaptor? I've never read that it is but for some reason it seams like it might be. And, is bolting a 1 1/2 driver driver directly to a 2 inch horn a close to unforgiveable sin? I don't totally understand it but I believe that it is. When one looks inside the driver adapter of a multicellular horn (altec) there is an area that is less than non-abrupt (couldn't think of just the right word) I guess I'm saying that not all the transitions are as gentle as one might think they would have to be. I would sure like to have less questions to ask, however.

Zilch
12-12-2006, 02:33 PM
Is there a horn,available for reasonable money, that shows the 2435 to good light?My best results with the pro horns are with 2352. 2435 plays well on any of the JBL PT Waveguides, also, but they are HF devices and 1 kHz is about the lower limit.

I've also used some DDS horns down to 800 Hz successfully. One of them mounts vertically in Project Array configuration:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70312&#post70312

I've tried just about every 1.5" Pro horn JBL makes, and am just now venturing into the heretofore unavailable Harman Consumer horns.... :thmbsup:

4313B
12-16-2006, 02:53 PM
Any news with the ferrofluid question?
ThanksThey both use ferrofluid.

Robh3606
12-16-2006, 03:07 PM
Hello Giskard

Thanks for the info I quess I will leave the drivers "wet" then.

Rob:)

Zilch
01-16-2007, 12:29 PM
Full biased version of "Key" filter (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=136480&postcount=17) constructed using PE stock parts, top.

Performance of various PT Waveguides using 435Be JBL Pro equivalent 2435HPL, next, and 435Al equivalent 2431H, third. High pass is 800 Hz JBL 3110.

Best of lot, at least with respect to flatness of frequency response, is 2431H on PT-H1010. Compare to H9800, fourth.

Single-malt libation "OBAN" provided courtesy of forum member Macaroonie, bottom, with PT-H1010.... :thmbsup:

John W
01-18-2007, 10:56 AM
Zilch,
Thanks for posting these plots.
I'm having a little problem matching your filter to the schematic, though.
Are both of the smaller caps 1uf? What did you come up with to get to 10.7 ohms?
Any ideas how different the filter would be with 10.5 ohms for the first resistor and 1.5mH on the last inductor?

Zilch
01-18-2007, 11:01 AM
Hi, John.

I've been playing 2435HPL on PT-H1010 with this filter for two days, now. Smooth as that single-malt. :thmbsup:

It's two 1.0 uF. I originally misread it as 0.6 uF on a printout, so that's 1.0 and 1.5 uF in the pic, i.e., wrong.

For 1.6 mH I used 2.0 mH, 20 ga, and unwound 32 turns.

L2 is 18 ga.

L1 is 20 ga.

Inductors are all Jantzen.

My bias resistors are 2.2M in the pic, as I ran out of 1.5M.

[Or misplaced 'em in the wrong bin, maybe.... :p ]

Zilch
01-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Any ideas how different the filter would be with 10.5 ohms for the first resistor and 1.5mH on the last inductor?10.5 Ohms will alter the attenuation slightly.

1.5 mH will narrow the notch at 1.8 kHz a bit, and deepen it.

When Giskard posts something to try, we can bank on it being precise.

So, I stick with the program, at least 'til I understand it. ;)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=136534&postcount=21

John W
01-18-2007, 01:05 PM
Thanks Zilch,
I see now that your resistor values are also taking into account the DCR of the inductors, which makes sense.
I agree it is best to just stick with the exact values, all else being equal. Is this filter meant specifically for the h9800?

Zilch
01-18-2007, 01:25 PM
Thanks Zilch,
I see now that your resistor values are also taking into account the DCR of the inductors, which makes sense.Yes, that's how I interpreted the circuit as Giskard posted it, since it was presented in proper format for Spice simulation, which would include the DCRs. Not specified was that of L2; I used my best guess for it, based upon prior experience. I've provided the DCRs of the inductors I used as the bottom entry in the schematic legends for each. If any of this is wrong, I expect I'll be "corrected" shortly. :p


I agree it is best to just stick with the exact values, all else being equal. Is this filter meant specifically for the h9800?It's for some custom horns presently on order, but the circuit might be adjusted for use with 2435HPL or 2431H on other horns/waveguides. Understand that it's a compensation filter only; you have to add either active or passive highpass. I'm presently running it on 3110 until I can get an active biamp setup playing with it here....

4313B
01-18-2007, 01:27 PM
Is this filter meant specifically for the h9800?No, G.T. did it for his personal home system. Several forum members have expressed interest in building something similar. As has been stated elsewhere, the 045Be has been turned off and this latest circuit employed. The end result is a smoother overall response from the 435Be. Recently, G.T. was able to get three pairs of 476Be's for his personal use and they will replace the 435Be's.

Zilch
01-26-2007, 12:17 PM
Thanks.
Back to Mr. Timbers notch filter, which I've been trying to figure out.
I can see the CLR filter to flatten out impedence peaks, and some attenuation. What else is it designed to do? Would most of it bennefit a passive crossover?
Parsed:

Jakob
01-10-2008, 04:48 PM
I read somewhere that G.T in his earlier setup (when still using the tweeters) used a 24dB LP and 6 dB HP at somewhere from 650 to 750 Hz (1200FE to 435Be). Does anybody know if he changed anything of that when he began using the compensation circuit and lost the tweeter?

Thanks for any info!