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View Full Version : Difference between the D series & K series JBL speakers?



tWreCK
12-12-2003, 08:41 AM
I'm looking at a pair of JBL K120 speakers I want to use in a guitar cab but from what I've heard these are entirely different speakers than the D120F's. What are the differences construction wise as well as tone wise? Which ones are the better choice?

boputnam
12-12-2003, 09:13 AM
Man, I can't find nothin' on those D120F's - no Thiele-Small parameters, no nuthin'. :hmm:

Oldmics
12-12-2003, 09:47 AM
The "F" is for Fender and they went in guitar cabinets.I would go with the - F- units as long as they are original and have not been reconed.Oldmics

Don McRitchie
12-12-2003, 02:32 PM
I believe the K series introduced Kapton coil formers and epoxy adhesives to allow higher power handling. JBL never published T/S parameters for the "F" series to my knowledge. They were long out of production by the time that JBL adopted T/S design.

boputnam
12-12-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Don McRitchie
I believe the K series introduced Kapton coil formers and epoxy adhesives to allow higher power handling. I wasn't exactly sure, but thought that.

We've had great luck in using both the E- and K-series swapped-into more recent vintage Fender tube cabinets (tho the 110's) for our guitar player. Both these followed the D-series, so if it were me, tWreCK, I'd be relaxed about going ahead with the K120's. I think it'll please you... :yes:

Earl K
12-12-2003, 05:25 PM
Well FWIW

I "believe" that everything that JBL learned from the R&D exercise of making a higher powered guitar speaker ( the D120F ) was incorporated into the design of the K series. This would also include a wider gap ( when compared to the original D130 spec. ). Giskard posted a link somewhere to the Dick Dale story about his speaker (D130F). Here's a link to the difference between the orginal "D" series and that with the "F" suffix. D130F History (http://www.jt30.com/jt30page/micKspeakers/D130F-History.html)

<> Earl K:)

Tom Loizeaux
12-12-2003, 05:51 PM
I've compared D120s and K120s and found that the D120s were more efficient. Both had similar frequency responses, but I feel the K120 has a slighty heavier cone and, therefore, isn't quite as bright. The E120, which uses the ceramic magnet, seems to have an even heavier cone and stiffer surround and sound a little veiled to my ears, though it can take gobs of power!
I know a lot more about the 15" musical intrument speakers than the 12s.
The D130 and D140 (F) drivers had treated cloth surrounds. This gave them a nice long throw and made them efficient. When JBL followed them with the K series they changed the surrounds to rolled paper. This controlled the cones a little better and made them able to handle more power. My bass amp can easily slam and bottom out a D140F with big transiants, while the K140 seems to handle these big "spikes" with ease. Both seem to have similar low end. The E140s, like the E120s, have the ceramic magnet and stiffer surrounds, allowing for higher power handling at the cost of deep low end. I really like the K140s, especially when used in multiples, for a good bass amp sound.
I think the K120s are good, very strong speakers for guitar but I think the D120s are a little quicker and brighter. Many guitar players, however, don't like the "Hi-Fi" sound of JBLs but prefer lighter weight, cheaper drivers like Jensen, Weber, and even Eminence instrument speakers. These speakers add "color" to the guitar's sound which many feel is important.

I use K120s (with 2402s) in my stage floor monitors because they can kick nicely with a respectible full range sound.

Hope this helps

Tom

tWreCK
12-13-2003, 06:11 AM
Thx guys - great information :)

Tomas M
01-11-2005, 12:50 PM
<SPAN lang=EN-GB style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hi!

Tomas M
01-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Hmmmm...something got wrong.


I have an old D140R. what does the "R" stand for?

Does anyone know?

Regards!

Tomas

Earl K
01-11-2005, 01:54 PM
Hi Tomas

- I don't know what the "R" is supposed to indicate but here's a bit of trivia ;

- Gap Width is .057" , just like the D130 , K130, K140, and the "E" series - as well as a whole slew of popular woofers like the 2225h(j) and the 2235h(j).

- The DCR ( DC resistance ) of a healthy voice-coil is given as 5.1 to 5.9 ohms. This specific DCR "range" is a shared trait with the D140F, the 2216 ( le15b ), 2205a, and the 2202a . These all have 4" wide voice-coils.

- The stock dustcap for this model is a "Thick Paper" type.

- FWIW, my Service Manual info says the D140R is most similar to the 2205A .

( with those references ; the "F" and "R" could just as easily mean : "Full-Range" & "Restricted-Range" - as determined by the type of "dust-cap" )

- Here are a few eBay pics for reference ;

regards < Earl K

David Dryden
01-11-2005, 03:48 PM
Interesting stuff! FWIW, my '68 Fender Showman has two D140's in it and they have aluminum dust caps.

Tom Loizeaux
01-11-2005, 07:29 PM
All the D, K and E series drivers I have ever seen came with aluminum dust covers. (except the 145s I believe)

Tom

Mr. Widget
01-11-2005, 07:36 PM
Some time back I saw some D140Rs on ebay and the seller claimed that the "R" version was designed for extended bass in organ use... it makes sense but as we all know eBay isn't the best source for accurate data.

Widget

stephane RAME
01-12-2005, 04:37 AM
jbl / fender

stephane RAME
01-12-2005, 04:39 AM
jbl / fender twin

Harvey Gerst
01-22-2005, 07:47 PM
The D130 and D140 (F) drivers had treated cloth surrounds. Hope this helps

Tom
No, they didn't. The cones and the surround were all one piece - paper. I did add "goop" to the surround, mainly to keep the surrounds from drying out.

Tom Loizeaux
01-23-2005, 08:04 PM
No, they didn't. The cones and the surround were all one piece - paper. I did add "goop" to the surround, mainly to keep the surrounds from drying out.

Harvey,
I certainly respect your knowledge, but when I examine my D140Fs, I see the cone paper ending and the surround looking like treated fabric. Unless I'm calling it fabric when its actually something else ... but it certainly does not look like one-piece rolled paper to me!
Can you double check this?
Thanks,

Tom

Harvey Gerst
01-23-2005, 10:59 PM
Tony Lowe may have changed it after I left JBL, but I used stock parts in all the "F" series, so a 15" cone with a fabric surround would have been out of the question for the D140F. It's either a later version, or a recone.

speakerdave
01-24-2005, 12:52 AM
I love this horse's mouth stuff. :applaud:

Harvey Gerst
01-24-2005, 08:16 AM
I love this horse's mouth stuff. :applaud:
Right animal;wrong end. :moon:

Don McRitchie
02-16-2006, 02:10 PM
Hmmmm...something got wrong.


I have an old D140R. what does the "R" stand for?

Does anyone know?

Regards!

Tomas

This resurects a really old thread. However, I just found out what the "R" stands for - Rogers Instruments. Widget was on the right track. They are a well know organ manufacturer that is still in business. JBL developed a dedicated 15" driver for their use as an organ loudspeaker. Current staff at JBL believe that the D140R preceded the D140F, but I am not certain of this. I remember Harvey Gerst stating that he came up with the 140 model number for the 15" version of his "F" seires because 150 had already been taken by the 150-4 series. Maybe Harvey can clear this up.

paragon
02-16-2006, 02:35 PM
Don, es gibt Dich noch ??
You are still here ??:applaud:

Harvey Gerst
02-16-2006, 02:43 PM
There was no taken 1xx series at the time, except for the 13x and the 15x, so I chose to try to number the series according to frame size, hence the D110F, and the D120F. I couldn't change (and wouldn't change) the D130, since it was already so popular. That left the 15" bass speaker; what to call it? It would cause confusion to name it after one of our existing models, so I simply chose D140F as the name. I used an aluminum dome on the D140F more for product identification, but it actually did help a little, and it allowed me to continue with the "F" series as an aluminum domed speaker series.

If JBL made D140R's after I left, I didn't know about it. Tony Lowe took over the department, so it was probably his model number. I know, for sure, there were no 140 anythings prior to my naming the bass speakers as D140F's.

glen
02-16-2006, 08:53 PM
I used an aluminum dome on the D140F more for product identification, but it actually did help a little, and it allowed me to continue with the "F" series as an aluminum domed speaker series.

I thought the aluminum dome helped a LOT when I got a D140 for my bass guitar amp, my old CTS 15's sounded really dull by comparison. I was hooked!

Hamilton
02-16-2006, 09:54 PM
Harvey, I bought three new D140F's in 1971. After installing them in my 4x15 cab I notice that two of them had a much more supple suspension while the third was noticably stiffer. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

So I called JBL and the guy (don't remember his name but I do remember he was very helpful) said that JBL started stiffening them up because too many players were blowing them up.

What does this have to do with anything? Nothing at all....I just remembered it. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Those things were expensive back then for a kid and I was so proud of them.

jim campbell
02-16-2006, 10:00 PM
werent the k series for bass.i used to have k 140's in single cubes made by a local company .i miss em

4343
02-16-2006, 11:34 PM
i used to have k 140's in single cubes made by a local company .i miss em

I bought a new pair in '75, after having been exposed to a pair a bass player friend of mine had. I lost one to a comparison test with a Peavey 1501, around '80.:banghead: (Salesman said the ALU dome was integral with the coil former to allow better heat conduction and dissapation, seemed to be true, but of course there's no way to center the coil from the front, which is why Peavey's have the removable magnet. I bought 4 1501's in '80, have yet to burn one out...) I ran the K's in 2530's, along with a bunch of D's, the 1501's lived in W boxes where the sealed back meant the only way out for heat was through the dome...

I just finished reconing that K-140 last year! (Note to self, do NOT use Duct tape to protect a gap for 25 years...:barf:) I put a 2225 coil, 2226 cone & spider in it to test an idea I had about increasing the Xmax, currently in a W box taking all the punishment I can throw at it...:bouncy:

The other one is still original, and paired with a reconed D-140...

Mike Scott in SJ, CA

johnaec
02-17-2006, 08:51 AM
werent the k series for bass.i used to have k 140's in single cubes made by a local company .i miss emK series were just the later versions of the D series. 140 is designed for bass.

John

Gerry D
02-17-2011, 12:31 PM
I believe the K series introduced Kapton coil formers and epoxy adhesives to allow higher power handling. JBL never published T/S parameters for the "F" series to my knowledge. They were long out of production by the time that JBL adopted T/S design.

Actually my re-cone guy tells me they used NOMAX for the "K" series and KAPTON for the "E" series...kind of took me by surprise...

Gerry D
02-17-2011, 12:49 PM
...they are heavy enough without the added 35-40Lbs. of JBL's...A good move if you have a road-y...I have been playing bass guitar for years...JBL- GAUSS- ALTEC are all I will use...moving the weight without the the efficient speakers is a waste of energy (In more ways than one)...more sound pressure for power in...High quality pay it's own way...BUT the twin in too heavy to begin with...and the open back kills the low end...

The basic bass stack:

TWO-K-140 in 200OS cab
TW0-8840 18" Gauss in two 8.5 ft cubic Completely enclosed cabinets
Four-2842 Gauss 12' In to "Alembic hard trucker cabs 4.5 ft cubic completely enclosed each.
One-(not the "good stuff) Guild Hartke 4-10" trans-response cab.

There is more (two K-120's in the Stars Guitars 5 ft cube cab...[seldom used]) but I find I've got it all covered...but not too many places to take advantage of the capabilities.

Gerry D
02-17-2011, 12:59 PM
I bought a new pair in '75, after having been exposed to a pair a bass player friend of mine had. I lost one to a comparison test with a Peavey 1501, around '80.:banghead: (Salesman said the ALU dome was integral with the coil former to allow better heat conduction and dissapation, seemed to be true, but of course there's no way to center the coil from the front, which is why Peavey's have the removable magnet. I bought 4 1501's in '80, have yet to burn one out...) I ran the K's in 2530's, along with a bunch of D's, the 1501's lived in W boxes where the sealed back meant the only way out for heat was through the dome...

I just finished reconing that K-140 last year! (Note to self, do NOT use Duct tape to protect a gap for 25 years...:barf:) I put a 2225 coil, 2226 cone & spider in it to test an idea I had about increasing the Xmax, currently in a W box taking all the punishment I can throw at it...:bouncy:

The other one is still original, and paired with a reconed D-140...

Mike Scott in SJ, CA

Actually back in the 70's GAUSS speakers were "built" in many configurations like your idea...the best solution, is a lot of speakers and no more that 15-20 watts to power them...use the cube relationship...re: add one speaker to one speaker and gain 3-6 dB without any more power in to the system...add two more and get the same increase in gain...still no more power in...It used to be, in building high output sound systems the SPEAKERS were cheaper than WATTS...Things change but the physics doesn't...I go with a lot of high quality speakers and keep the power to each one relatively low...save on the re-cone costs...BIG TIME...

But keep experimenting...mix and match...you can optimize for your needs..."old school" never goes away...

Gerry D
02-17-2011, 01:12 PM
I believe the K series introduced Kapton coil formers and epoxy adhesives to allow higher power handling. JBL never published T/S parameters for the "F" series to my knowledge. They were long out of production by the time that JBL adopted T/S design.

The T-S specs are available...they are the same as the "K" series. It seems the only real change was to the power handling capability of the speakers...I think I got the info from a Thiele Small data base...GOOGLE Thiele Small and you will find it as the first or second entry...although the data base in not complete there is a lot of useful info there...

whitebeard
02-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Anyone know what years the K 120-16 was produced?

gibber
09-29-2012, 11:51 AM
Actually my re-cone guy tells me they used NOMAX for the "K" series and KAPTON for the "E" series...kind of took me by surprise...

I can confirm Nomex on a K145, s/n 17464 and a later-series K145-16, s/n 10489



Anyone know what years the K 120-16 was produced?

K120-16 is the later series iteration of K120.
1979 thru 1982 to the best my memory. But others here in this forum (even this thread) would know with much more certainty


Now here's a trivia question on the Fender series (they are before my "active" time). When were the orange frame D...F sereis produced for Fender and were they orange for the whole Fender range within the D series or just D140F? The standard Fender-labelled D series just has the rear badge in orange. This pair fetched quite a decent price. 56992

gibber
02-01-2015, 02:53 PM
This resurects a really old thread. However, I just found out what the "R" stands for - Rogers Instruments. Widget was on the right track. They are a well know organ manufacturer that is still in business. JBL developed a dedicated 15" driver for their use as an organ loudspeaker. Current staff at JBL believe that the D140R preceded the D140F, but I am not certain of this. I remember Harvey Gerst stating that he came up with the 140 model number for the 15" version of his "F" seires because 150 had already been taken by the 150-4 series. Maybe Harvey can clear this up.


Well, this answers a really old post that way back then resurrected a really old thread :o:

There seems to be a bit of info on D140R here and there on this forum and the driver has been rightly compared to 2216 / LE15B in one post, as i just found out measuring two D140R's with different cone colors. One has a grey frame as in the eBay pictures posted elsewhere in this thread, i.e. there's a rounded recess near the screw holes on the front perimeter of the frame. The other frame's also grey but doesn't have this.

Confirming what Harvey Gerst assumed, namely the design was changed at some point, I got two speaker/PR15 passive radiator pairs and they copy the change in cone color and show a change in suspension. One has an all-paper 31044 cone/suspension whereas the other (21513, the one with the recesses) has not. Color might be due to UV(??).

64444


But the real info: D140R seems very different from D140F in one respect (at least mine are). Fs on the two units here measures 21.6 and 22.5 Hz, respectively. Qts is .23 and .255 -- unchanged from D140F (but maybe would drop if the magnets were re-charged). So the "Rogers" version at least differs from the "Fender" version by having the 2216-style resonance.

LE15A/B, 2215, 2216, K145 all lack ventilation through the pole piece. Some quote this to be the reason for 150-4C's allegedly superior sound when compared to K145.

I have neither 150-4C nor LE15B/2216, so i can't compare the sound of 2216 to D140R or K145 to 150-4C, but it would be an interesting shootout between the same cone on either the nice giant magnet / underhung coil or with the also nice-to-have pole ventilation.
Maybe something for a future contributor resurrecting an old thread...

Ralph

JBLBob
01-24-2016, 02:51 PM
I believe the K series introduced Kapton coil formers and epoxy adhesives to allow higher power handling. JBL never published T/S parameters for the "F" series to my knowledge. They were long out of production by the time that JBL adopted T/S design.
From what I understand, the K series was suppose to be the "new and improved D series. First off, the VC gap was a little wider. This was to cure the problem of VC pinch that sometimes happened with the old D series when they got hot. Second, the K series had cloth surrounds instead of paper. Third, the aforementioned changes allowed the speaker to handle more power...rated at 125W RMS. As far as the K's having a Kapton coil former, I'm not sure if and/or when that happened. I've reconed a number of K 120's and the original; cones had the aluminum coil former. Some guitarist tell me that the tone of the D's was better, but since I'm a keyboard player I can't comment on that.