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jspeaker
10-23-2006, 11:19 PM
Can someone please confirm if the upgraded triangle form for drivers with the le25 tweeter has an upgraded/different crossover then the older straight line L100s that used the le20 tweeter? and if so what is the difference?
i put le25 tweeters in my straight line L100 cabs,le52 mids and i am going to use 123a-3 woofers. whic update method on here do i need to follow to get best sound?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 12:32 AM
At the bottom of the index page, last forum entry is a link named "Links."

The first of those links is "JBL Consumer tech sheet links."

Look 'em up there....

alexkerhead
10-24-2006, 12:41 AM
Can someone please confirm if the upgraded triangle form for drivers with the le25 tweeter has an upgraded/different crossover then the older straight line L100s that used the le20 tweeter? and if so what is the difference?
i put le25 tweeters in my straight line L100 cabs,le52 mids and i am going to use 123a-3 woofers. whic update method on here do i need to follow to get best sound?
The line array models were the later models.
LE25 is the original tweeter, the line array tweeter is a le25-2 or something, but it is later modeled. More cheaply made.

I used the original LE25 tweeters in my line array L100s, but I had to cut the hole out bigger. It sounds about the same, maybe a bit nicer than the later le25.
I say, put all the drivers in and listen to them, I think you will like the sound, I know I like my modded L100s.
Here is a pic of what mine look like. I also used the later LE5-8 mids in mine, the le5-2 is a better mid and is what is supposed to be in those cabs.

Good luck, and dont forget pics.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 11:57 AM
The line array models were the later models.Wrong.

LE25 is the original tweeter....Wrong.
... the line array tweeter is a le25-2 or something, but it is later modeled.Wrong.
I used the original LE25 tweeters in my line array L100s, but I had to cut the hole out bigger.That shoulda been a clue....

Please, Alex, either know what you're talking about or research the information BEFORE posting here.

You wanna be a L100 expert? Do your homework. Make a project of it for the benefit of everyone.

People like jspeaker come here for reliable information about JBL heritage.

While I appreciate your desire to participate and contribute, posting misinformation in Technical Help is NOT a good approach to accomplishing that.... :banghead:

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 01:24 PM
wew, thanks zilch , i thought i was going absolutly crazy until i read ur post. yea ok i am on the rt track, just confused as to which crossover i need and exactly how to update it?i build computers but just now getting into vintage hifi stuff like klipsch and what not, currently trying to put together these L100s and have always been a fan of jbl ,waiting on all parts to get here. i just hear and have read that when they went to the le25 in later model triangle shape holes, that a better crossover was used. i bought a pair of cabs straight line, with le25 and xovers , but i dont think the xovers were modded, only the hole to fit the le25s.also i will be using le52 mids and 123a-3 woofers.

clmrt
10-24-2006, 01:32 PM
Prolly want to emulate this schematic - -

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100A%20LATE%20ts.pdf

Correct for:

123A3
LE5-2
LE25

...according to the XO schem. If this matches what you have, assemble and go!

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 01:40 PM
yes clmrt that is the one i am looking at.ok apparently my setup is going to be the L100a late model even though i am using straight line cabs, now , i am looking at the schematics diagram of the xover and specs in links link where u said to go at L100a late model,
i have no idea what i am looking at, i know it looks like the filters will need replacing. and the woofer is black to black and green to red and i know what the lpads are, the rest is greek mixed with french to me..dont know where to get filters or what to call them when looking and buying, parts express i think has them but dont know where to start.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 01:47 PM
As you see in the links, the rudimentary single-pole crossover of L100A became standard for many iterations of the L100 "family" of speakers.

The "West Coast" sound of L100 is unique. If that's what you want, I'd go with the original two-pole crossover for the in-line array. Comparing that to the simpler one would be an inexpensive experiment. There's basically nothing to them but a pair of capacitors. Then YOU could decide which is best! :thmbsup:

Later attempts were made at "fixing" that driver set via more elaborate crossovers. Ultimately, different drivers became the answer.

Many, if not most, of the regulars here have L100s, including myself. They're fun, of course, but they are not accurate.

There's ways to "help" them, but they're best just let being what they are. Every time I contemplate upgrading them, I end up with 4412s. :p

clmrt
10-24-2006, 01:52 PM
I believe the in-line cabs have a vent, but no duct - a hole with no tube? A'la early 4310?

May want to also mess with sealing the vent and run it that way, see what you think.

The L100 is like some DIY'er just throwing drivers in a cab, capping them for a simple XO, and potting the MF/HF. Simple, fast and easy.

The $$$ was already spent engineering those drivers. All they had to do was make a million of them and rake in the cash.

I don't work here, I'm just bored and like to read.

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 01:53 PM
so are u saying leave the original xover in there even though i am using le25 and 123a-3?

clmrt
10-24-2006, 01:57 PM
I hope you're not asking me!

:D

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:10 PM
im asking zilch what is he saying, by two pole and all that, that is confusing, is he saying leave the crossover as is and run my le25 and 123a-3 as is? see if i do that i know the highs are going to be too high and my ears cannot take that. the changed crossover for my setup is suppose to allow more bottom end, and that is what i want, am i wrong about this? i do notice that the xover for my setup is simpler , i have to jump something but like i said it is greek to me.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:11 PM
so are u saying leave the original xover in there even though i am using le25 and 123a-3?Yes, and try the later (simpler) version, too!

Basically, it doesn't matter.

I'd upgrade the capacitors in factory crossovers using Solens from Parts Express, as shown in that other thread you posted in.

Like clmrt says, there's not much to these. Don't overthink them; there's not much to be done....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:15 PM
yea see that other thread is confusing on exactly which ones to get, the guy said all they had were so and so, should i replace with same uf as they are now, or go ahead and replace with the changed uf for mf and hf?

clmrt
10-24-2006, 02:18 PM
Wondering what makes you say that - about the highs and all, I mean. You can dial in the drivers with the pots.

When I had these, or like these, I usually had the mid down almost all the way, and the tweeter backed off pretty well, too. And the port blocked....

Monkeying with the XO's by ear is a good way to kill a winter, I guess.

OR - -

Go active 3 way, auto-eq and digital XO. WOOT!:applaud:

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:18 PM
im asking zilch what is he saying, by two pole and all that, that is confusing, is he saying leave the crossover as is and run my le25 and 123a-3 as is? see if i do that i know the highs are going to be too high and my ears cannot take that. the changed crossover for my setup is suppose to allow more bottom end, and that is what i want, am i wrong about this? i do notice that the xover for my setup is simpler , i have to jump something but like i said it is greek to me.That's total BS. There's no filter on the woofer in any of them. Plug the port with a plumbers' test plug if you want to get rid of the bass response "bump" and enjoy deeper bass from them. I recently wrote a thread on this mod:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=122946#post122946

Just do it. Build or buy the "A" crossover, too, and see if you can hear a difference. They're cheap on eBay.

The difference is in the crossover frequencies: 2.5 kHz, 7.5 kHz for the original L100, 1.5 kHz, 6 kHz for the "A" version....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:24 PM
you're rt clmrt but why the change in the xover then?, anyways, thanks guys for help , i cant wait to get these going.yea i think there is a set of the A crossovers on ebay rt now but i cant really tell because i dont know what mine look like yet, still waiting on the arrival.
is it safe to use the 123a-3 woofers with this xover as long as i switch polarity?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:30 PM
yea see that other thread is confusing on exactly which ones to get, the guy said all they had were so and so, should i replace with same uf as they are now, or go ahead and replace with the changed uf for mf and hf?Go with what they are. Let's have a look.

I assume you have L100 crossovers in your boxes. You can easily tell if they have coils in addition to the capacitors, that's them.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100%20CENTURY%20ts.pdf

4 uF and 1.5 uF. Use 3.9, the stock value, for the 4. OR, use a 3.0 and a 1.0 or a pair of 2.0 connected in parallel if you want to be right on the 4.0 spec....

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:34 PM
Is it safe to use the 123a-3 woofers with this xover as long as i switch polarity?Yes. Again, none of these crossovers do anything with the woofer....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:38 PM
i am assuming that too since he said they were not touched,yea i know the woofers go direct to the inputs, but heard or someone said somewhere on the net that the updated xovers made the highs less sensitive. but like he said i can just adjust the lpads for that if need be. im looking at the selons at partsexpress rt now, so do i just de-solder old and resolder the new caps on?

clmrt
10-24-2006, 02:41 PM
Yes. I did it to my (insert another ubiquitous-but-not-JBL speaker here) and used $0.50 caps. Works like a charm.

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:42 PM
ok

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:47 PM
im looking at the selons at partsexpress rt now, so do i just de-solder old and resolder the new caps on?Yes. Look in that other thread for the pics of how it's done. You trace the circuit to identify which cap is which, if necessary.

Your biggest problem is getting AT the crossovers. You have to carefully remove the aluminum foil nameplates with a heat gun to get to the screws, as I recall....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 02:52 PM
will a blowdryer work? can u please give me link to that pic, i just now turned on subscribed threads instant email?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 02:57 PM
Blowdryer works, too. Be patient doing it if you hope to reuse them. Otherwise, you end up with what Alex showed above.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12675

Go to the L100 raffle thread to see how the Lansing Heritage pros did it, too.... :applaud:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=26219#post26219

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 03:01 PM
also if i hook these 123a-3s to the xover in cabs with the lx12-10 model , do i or do i do not switch polarity ?in that thread u say that the woofers are not reversed but only the xover.but in that thread it says on some the cone moves in . see on the diag of the lx12-10 model , LF, black of the 123a-1 goes to red.on diag of late model n100, LF 123a-3 black goes to black but if i am using 123a-3 in model lx12-10 then do i still need to reverse and send black to red?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 03:25 PM
Someone needs to determine if 123A-3 is actually reversed polarity from 123A-1. There's statements that it is, and it uses the 2213 cone kit, which is reversed polarity. Spec sheet says if you use 2213, you reverse polarity.

So, I'd say you need to reverse it, yes....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 04:11 PM
the 123a-1 on the lx12-10 xover goes black to red, since woofer goes straight through to inputs that means that pol is reversed on the 123a-1,
so on the n100 the 123a-3 goes straight to xover and it is black to black , so would that mean that using my 123a-3s with the lx12-10 xover i would still go black to black? maybe i should contact jble directly on this unless someone knows for sure.
a while back on a different project of mine someone said hook up wires to terminals on speaker, then hook them to either side of an aaa battery and when woofer pulses out then that is correct way, but i am not sure on this. if woofer pulses out does that mean it is correct?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 04:34 PM
I don't mean to put you off, but there's PLENTY of info in these forums regarding JBL speaker polarity. Use the "Search" function to find it.

A 1.5 V battery connected (+) to red terminal will pull the cone in on JBL convention drivers. Industry standard is the opposite. Some JBL drivers follow industy standard. 123A-1's one of those, according to me just testing one. 2213's the opposite. I don't know what 123A-3 does; you have one. Test it and report your finding here....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 05:13 PM
yea but i read different things, no one knows for sure,and especially hooking a 123a-3 up to the lx12-10 xover, i will test my 123a-3 but what am i looking for, out or in? and if all the woofers run straight to xover , wouldnt this mean that the 123a-1 is the only one reversed as in red to green to black comin from red on speaker going through xover(green) to speaker terminal black?

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 05:18 PM
ok I hooked red to red and black to black on woofer 123a-3,
results, ran red to pos battery side and black to neg batt side and woofer pulsed in, changed red to neg side batt,and black to pos side batt and woofer pulsed out. so where do we stand? and how do i hook this to lx12-10 xover without damaging my woofers?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 05:35 PM
yea but i read different things, no one knows for sure....We will know for sure once you test the 123A-3....

Edit: O.K., 123A-3 pulls in with (+) to red terminal, i.e., it's JBL convention, opposite of 123A-1.

That means you connect it reversed polarity to LX12-10, once you determine they're what you actually receive in the cabinets.

Know this also: you won't damage the speaker hooking it up backwards. It just won't sound the way the design intended.

Red on the 123A-3 speaker will go to black crossover lead for the "correct" connection....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 05:35 PM
ok thats good to know it wont damage , man i would be so in the dark without your help and understanding zilch,
ok so connecting 123a-3 reversed pol to lx12-10 means i run wire from red on the 123a-3 to black on xover lx12-10 and black from speaker to green on xover?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 05:47 PM
Your answer has magically appeared in post 32.

You deserve the appellation "Empiricist," now.

Change "Junior Member" to that in your User Profile, if you like.... :D

[Also, put in your location. Members like to know where each other are here....]

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 05:58 PM
yea see the woofers are all i have rt now , cabs with xovers and tweets and one mid will be in tom.ok so connecting 123a-3 reversed pol to lx12-10 means i run wire from red on the 123a-3 to black on xover lx12-10 and black from speaker to green on xover?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 06:02 PM
ok so connecting 123a-3 reversed pol to lx12-10 means i run wire from red on the 123a-3 to black on xover lx12-10 and black from speaker to green on xover?Yes,

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 06:05 PM
im lookin at tech maual from here, same as u are i suppose, it says for for my xovers(lx12-10 that black and green are only options for LF) blk and grn,

am i missing something?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 06:11 PM
I fixed it. Had to look again, myself.... :p

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 06:19 PM
ok great, this has been a day . man u really have been a great help today././ will let u know how they sound once i get them up and running.. see this is confusing, because i thought and have read over and over that the 123a-1 are reversed. but doing the test proved that the 123a-3s are reversed. or are they both reversed? from what people say and manual says it can get really confsuing cause manual goes red to green to black for 123a-1.

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 06:34 PM
oh lord, i think the le25 is reversed also.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 06:38 PM
The "Correct" connection for 123A-3 in that version L100 has all of the black speaker terminals going to the black input terminal, then, independent of the intervening wire color(s).

Assuming the mid and tweet are also JBL convention polarity (which I don't know as fact,) they're all wired in phase with each other, but the total system is reverse polarity from industry standard.

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 06:47 PM
all i know is for 123a-3 going to lx12-10 is --coming from 123a-3 (red to blk to red), and (black to grn to blk)
are u telling me not to hook the 123a-3 to the crossover wires? for speaker inputs, i do hook red to red on receiver and black to black on reciever rt?
le52 looks the same in each xover, black to white to red, and black to black to black.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 06:55 PM
No, no. I'm just saying if you trace the connections (as you have just done) and ignore the color of the intervening wires, everything is wired in phase, assuming all of the drivers are JBL polarity.

How you connect the speaker SYSTEM to the source only matters if there are other speakers that are NOT JBL convention polarity (from another manufacturer, for example) being used concurrently, as, for example, in a home theater system, in which case you have to reverse the connections of one type or the other from the source, so that everything plays in phase....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 06:58 PM
ok gotcha, so if these jbls are in chnl A of amp, and i hook other speakers to chnn B in amp and play a and b at same time then for other speakers i will have to change their wires to amp from black coming from its input to red on amp and vise versa?
seems to me after following the traces, that the xover is what reverses the jbl or fixes it whichever.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 07:07 PM
Yes, if they are industry standard polarity, which is the inverse of JBL convention polarity.

Playing multiple systems in the same listening space using the same source, as you have just suggested as example, is not a recommended practice, as it creates huge phase interference issues in the sound field produced.

I was talking about home theater, where the processing sends different source material to each speaker system, and thus they don't interfere with each other....

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 07:07 PM
do i keep the le52 mids comin from le52 red to white to red and black to black to black? by comparing xovers it seems this way.

now for the le25, the xover schemes are different. le25 to lx12-10
seems like i will have to come from le25 red to black to black, and black to red to red correct?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 07:08 PM
seems to me after following the traces, that the xover is what reverses it.Indeed. That's how we arrived here, from my making that statement in another thread.... :thmbsup:

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 07:11 PM
ok so inputs on these jbls , the red is still red and black is still black?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 07:13 PM
now for the le25, the xover schemes are different. le25 to lx12-10
seems like i will have to come from le25 red to black to black, and black to red to red correct?Wire per the L100 w/LX12-10 spec sheet....

ok so inputs on these jbls , the red is still red and black is still black?Yes, but I'm saying the entire system is JBL convention (negative) polarity, which is inverse of industry standard polarity.

http://www.jblpro.com/tech-library/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 07:15 PM
yea but le20 on lx12-10 spec sheet is different then le25 on n100 spec sheet. or do i just make sure they end up going to same through tracing? the le25 has to be reversed because on the n100 spec sheet it has black going to red and red going to black all the way through.because the lx12-10 shows the le20 matching red to red and b to b.

Zilch
10-24-2006, 07:38 PM
Wire mid and tweet per the L100/LX12-10 spec sheet, because that's what goes with the in-line alignment of drivers.

We just inverted the 123A-3 woofer to bring it into conformity with that.

Stay with it.

jspeaker
10-24-2006, 11:03 PM
ok so wire the le25 like the le20? which is red to red and black to black showing on the lx12-10 spec sheet.
and for le52,comin from le52 , red to white to red & blk to blk to blk?

Zilch
10-24-2006, 11:26 PM
ok so wire the le25 like the le20? which is red to red and black to black showing on the lx12-10 spec sheet.
and comin from le52 , red to white to red blk to blk to blk?Yes. Somebody here may know more about LE25 vs. LE20, but I'll try to find time to test a few for sensitivity and polarity.

Can't use a battery on tweeters, tho.... :no:

jspeaker
10-26-2006, 12:59 PM
Direct from jbl -- Yes, I am sure. The polarity on the 123A-1 was also reversed, and the crossover addresses it. Here is an attachment of the crossover(lx12-10). You will see that while it shows the RED speaker input terminal going to the BLACK speaker connection, it shows the GREEN wire going TO WOOFER RED.

Zilch
10-26-2006, 01:54 PM
You and I have independently determined that JBL is correct.

[Heh, heh....]

There's more to be explored here, but the two spare LE25s I have are both dead. I'm gonna have to tear into my L100s to discover what's going on.... :D

jspeaker
10-26-2006, 03:57 PM
rt, they are both reversed and both xovers fixe this i think. since the xover fixes them, then should i still have to swap other inputs to other speakers if others are hooked up at same time?

Zilch
10-26-2006, 04:05 PM
Yes, very likely, if they're from other manufacturers and conform to IES standard (positive) polarity.

Your L100s will be JBL convention (negative) polarity.

But, that won't be an issue, unless you use them in HT, 'cause you know better than to play more than one pair of speakers with the same source material in the same listening space.... ;)

jspeaker
10-26-2006, 06:31 PM
well i have 2 pair of klipsch heresys that i put together hooked up in a and b and i play a and b at same time they sound amazing. u mean if i use these jbls with another pair at same time rt?
but the way it seems, the xovers make then correct when they come out at the speaker input?

Zilch
10-26-2006, 06:40 PM
well i have 2 pair of klipsch heresys that i put together hooked up in a and b and i play a and b at same time they sound amazing.You are generating destructive interferences in the sound field playing them simultaneously. There's no position where you can hear what is actually reproduced from the program. And there's no benefit from doing so other than that they'll play louder.

It's axiomatic: multiple sources of the same program interfere with each other. More is NOT better in this case. I'll get you a reference I was reading just today.

See the second paragraph of second column, page 1 here:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/PD%20HF%20TechNote.pdf

Now, that's not definitive, but it's certainly one example of where it virtually "goes without saying" among professionals that it's bad practice. They take every possible measure to insure that sound fields do not overlap and interfere with each other.

It's bad practice, for the same reason, that the L100 woofer plays full range, interfering with the LE5 mid, especially.

Read some of these JBL Pro technical references, particularly the two parts of the Sound System Reference Manual:

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/tech_lib.htm

Stereo comes from TWO coherent sources playing the differential program material recorded originally, and within each speaker, the crossover insures that multiple drivers are not playing the same frequencies concurrently, thus minimizing their potential interference with each other.

Playing multiple speakers on each channel, you defeat a significant portion of the original performance reproduction objective.

I'm not telling you or anyone else what to do. You like it, you think it sounds "amazing," so be it. I'm merely suggesting that you do so with some understanding of the fundamentals of sound reproduction, and certain inherent consequences which you may not presently appreciate....

jspeaker
10-26-2006, 11:02 PM
then why did they ever invent or come out with surround sound(center,sub,sattalites, and main) to play all at once? this give every imaginative sound on a movie so why wouldnt it on just 2 sets of speakers? its just not computing in my head rt now .

Zilch
10-26-2006, 11:17 PM
Because it's DIFFERENT program material coming out of each of those channels. They don't interfere with each other, rather, they COMPLEMENT each other in a programmed manner, according to a prescribed specification.

You're talking instead about playing the SAME program material from multiple pairs. Do you expect you're simulating the multi-channel environment that way? It's not happening, I guarantee.

In the years before stereo, we had mono. We thought it was WAY cool to run multiple speakers playing that.


It really, really sucked, except for smack in the middle. It's worse in stereo, because no matter where you are, you can't achieve a coherent image. There's reinforcements and rarefactions across the entire frequency spectrum.


[Try it yerself and "see," now that you know more what to listen for.... :yes:]

clmrt
10-27-2006, 07:20 AM
[Try it yerself and "see," now that you know more what to listen for.... :yes:]

Thus, his life is ruined. Ignorance is bliss.

This is the longest thread about two capacitors I've ever read!

hjames
10-27-2006, 08:30 AM
[Try it yerself and "see," now that you know more what to listen for.... :yes:]

Thus, his life is ruined. Ignorance is bliss.

This is the longest thread about two capacitors I've ever read!

Yes, but I'm waitin' to see the part where he comes gunnin' for the man who ruined his life, er, ears, er, listening pleasure ...

Watch yer backside, Zilchster!

(hmm - must've been watching too many Sergio Leone movies lately ...)

Zilch
10-27-2006, 10:07 AM
This is the longest thread about two capacitors I've ever read!
Watch yer backside, Zilchster!


:p

jspeaker
10-27-2006, 12:24 PM
oh i will be now, trust me, it keeps on getting deeper, i dont wont to know anymore, if this is true i just dont see how surrround sound works and why they promote it so much.
no im not looking for simulated surround by doing this , just more bottom end cause the horns are really loud on my klipsch heresys and its hard to get bottom out of them anyways.
this thread is not on caps, its on these crazy reversed woofers and how to connect them to xovers. grn and blk and red and which to which and so on. im gonna play the jbls on a seperate vintage kenwood amp by themselves.

clmrt
10-27-2006, 01:08 PM
Surround works because no two speakers (drivers, even) reproduce the same program material.
(Except most centers - read up on "Comb Filtering")
Zilch sumed it up.
Of course there are exceptions, like line-arrays - nothing more than stacks upon stacks, really. But there's a science behind it, of which I know nothing about.

Zilch
10-27-2006, 10:23 PM
I don't know anything about Klipsch Herseys, but if you need more "bottom end," a subwoofer might be a better solution than a second pair playing the top end as well and messing up what the first pair is playing....

Edit: Here's yer Herseys:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=42222#post42222

Looks like they need subs. is what.... :yes: