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Thom
10-11-2006, 03:46 PM
I ran across someone putting a 2225 kit in an E145 frame. They claimed it was a stiffer heavier cone. They took off the depth ring, maybe the kit doesn't fit with it. I've only seen pictures of the E145 but that would have to be what the small drilled and tapped holes were for is the 145 must use a ring like the 150-4 .The E145 has a heavier magnet but it must be for more travel as it has less gauss. Anybody familiar with this. What do you end up with. Seems it would be a 2225 with a weeker (if heavier) magnet. Any knowlege? Itlooks like the 2225 kit is easier to get so is there really a theory out there that this is a trick set up or is it a cheaper way of putting an E145 back in use?

edgewound
10-11-2006, 03:55 PM
You end up with something that JBL didn't design to work together.

It's known as a "Frankenwoofer". The top plate is much thicker....deeper gap on the E145. The voice coil will be in the wrong static position with a factory kit.

Actually...an E145 will blow the doors off a 2225 in all respects but it's quite a bit heavier, and more expensive to manufacture. The Everest driver was in fact an E145(150-4H)

But like always...they will say they love it.:bs:

Thom
10-11-2006, 04:21 PM
Yeh,
Well sometimes you don't necessarily want to say why you want to know something but is this something that has been done enough that there's a track record on it. Is it simply something that nobody knows anything about. I'm sure it's not the super woofer I would of heard of that. If someone has actual experience with it I'd like to know what they know. If someone doesn't have actual experience but thinks they have either enough technical knowledge or experence with these various drivers to give what may be an educated guess I'd like to hear it and your background. But don't just tell me that if jbl had wanted it that way they would have made it that way. I already got that much. Thank you. I am really looking for information. Don't worry about insulting me but don't do it on purpose please.

Robh3606
10-11-2006, 04:34 PM
Hello Thom

I had someone try that same pitch to me as well. Had an E-145 I wanted reconned as an E-145 and was told by thE clown that the 145 kits were not available, which was total :bs: He wanted to do the same thing, take off the ring and install a 2225 kit. Didn't do it and never used him again.

Those 2 drivers are not even close. The E145 has an underhung coil and a very light cone where the 2225 has a heavier cone and a overhung coil. The top plate thickness and magnet mass are all tied to the coil topology used on the 2 drivers. What Edge says is correct.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
10-11-2006, 04:37 PM
If someone has actual experience with it I'd like to know what they know.No actual experience here, but I can tell you the new woofer will have much higher levels of distortion than either a proper 2225 or a E145.

Are you familiar with overhung vs. underhung woofer designs? If you you are, you will understand why this is a particularly bad idea. If you are not familiar with those terms Google them. The E145 is an underhung woofer and the 2225 is an overhung design... they are absolutely not interchangeable... oh sure, the new woofer will play... just not as well as the sum of it's parts.


Widget


Edit: Rob beat me to it!

scott fitlin
10-11-2006, 04:38 PM
You end up with something that JBL didn't design to work together.

It's known as a "Frankenwoofer". The top plate is much thicker....deeper gap on the E145. The voice coil will be in the wrong static position with a factory kit.



But like always...they will say they love it.:bs:This would be the specially made custom woofers that end up on ebay being advertised as "Better than Original"! :barf:

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2006, 04:47 PM
Those 2 drivers are not even close. The E145 has an underhung coil and a very light cone where the 2225 has a heavier cone and a overhung coil. The top plate thickness and magnet mass are all tied to the coil topology used on the 2 drivers. What Edge says is correct.

Rob:)

exactly.....:rockon2:

edgewound
10-11-2006, 05:52 PM
If someone doesn't have actual experience but thinks they have either enough technical knowledge or experence with these various drivers to give what may be an educated guess I'd like to hear it and your background. But don't just tell me that if jbl had wanted it that way they would have made it that way. I already got that much. Thank you. I am really looking for information. Don't worry about insulting me but don't do it on purpose please.

If I sound a little irritated at this...my apologies. It's just that this practice really....really... pisses me off. An Authorized JBL Service agency should know better than that. It's nothing less than a rip-off to the customer. Would you want a Ford dealer replacing your Mustang GT engine with an Escort engine and being told it's better performing? Probably an absurd analogy, but the outcome is the same....IT's WRONG!!!

Ok...Here's my qualifications.

I've been JBL Pro Factory Authorized Service since 1988. I'm quite familiar with both the 2225 and the E145 among most all the other drivers JBL has mfg'd since the 1950's.

I thought I gave you pretty good info in that the voice coil position will be wrong...that would be a hint to much distortion, and probably a severe case of cone fatigue from over excursion when you crank the new HOT ROD to high SPL from the newly designed "SuperWoofer". I've seen and heard of other reconers practicing this and all I can do is shake my head and ask, "Why are you doing that? Don't you know...?"

The same bad practice is done to 2220 with a 2225 recone kit installed....same deal...not interchangeable, although they do "fit".

"OHH...It works just fine...with better bass!"

Yeah, right....whatever...

I stopped preaching to a deaf audience.

I guess I should've gone into more detail on under hung and overhung topology but that info is plastered all over the internet somewhere.



Thanks Rob, Widget, and Rick for the backup.

Thom
10-11-2006, 06:08 PM
It sort of sounds like I tic'd someone off. I hope not.I wasn't suggesting you needed any type of qualification to respond but by identifying yourself it gave me more of an idea of the flavor of the information. Thank you for responding. If I were considering purchasing or making such an item you would have been of much help. Edgewound you refered to the E145 as a 150-4 is that only because of the depth or are there other simularities. Does it have a paper suspension? Although JBL built variants with larger magnets it's my impresion that a standard 150-4 sharer magnet structure with the D130. I'm getting a pair (hopefully of E145's) although K's would have made me happier. All of a sudden I'm finding that this slipped magnet thing is not all that rare.

edgewound
10-11-2006, 06:18 PM
It sort of sounds like I tic'd someone off. I hope not.I wasn't suggesting you needed any type of qualification to respond but by identifying yourself it gave me more of an idea of the flavor of the information. Thank you for responding. If I were considering purchasing or making such an item you would have been of much help.

No problem, Thom.

Glad to help.:)

My indentifying info and my general location are in my public profile.:)

If you'd like more specifics you may send me a PM.

Thanks again.

scott fitlin
10-11-2006, 06:53 PM
It sort of sounds like I tic'd someone off. I hope not.I wasn't suggesting you needed any type of qualification to respond but by identifying yourself it gave me more of an idea of the flavor of the information. Thank you for responding. If I were considering purchasing or making such an item you would have been of much help. Edgewound you refered to the E145 as a 150-4 is that only because of the depth or are there other simularities. Does it have a paper suspension? Although JBL built variants with larger magnets it's my impresion that a standard 150-4 sharer magnet structure with the D130. I'm getting a pair (hopefully of E145's) although K's would have made me happier. All of a sudden I'm finding that this slipped magnet thing is not all that rare.The K-145 and E-145 were the modern day equivalents of the JBL 150-4C.

Mr. Widget
10-11-2006, 06:57 PM
Edgewound you refered to the E145 as a 150-4 is that only because of the depth or are there other simularities.Edge was referring to the 150-4H. It is identical to the E145.


Widget

grumpy
10-11-2006, 08:17 PM
Does it have a paper suspension? I assume this question
is regarding the E-145... I have two varieties: older units (or perhaps using
older recone kits, ala K-145) appear to have paper surrounds, and later units
have cloth surrounds. Don't make me go look ;) .
I believe the specs did not change with the surround. -grumpy

edgewound
10-11-2006, 09:03 PM
I assume this question
is regarding the E-145... I have two varieties: older units (or perhaps using
older recone kits, ala K-145) appear to have paper surrounds, and later units
have cloth surrounds. Don't make me go look ;) .
I believe the specs did not change with the surround. -grumpy

Hey Grumpy,

The E145 changed to an "m-roll" surround sometime in midstream production....not exactly sure when.

The purpose was to minimize surround resonance that feeds back and forth through the cone apex to the surround.

I think the cone was a little lighter too, but don't know by how much.

Also...the E145 kits came with both an aluminum dome and a paper dome. You could choose which to use based on the application or preference.

grumpy
10-12-2006, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the additional info/description!. I've never seen an E145 with
an aluminum dome. Was this (including both dome types) normal for MI
speakers or unique to the E145?

-grumpy

grumpy
10-12-2006, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the additional info/description!. I've never seen an E145 with
an aluminum dome. Was this (including both dome types in the recone
kit) normal for JBL MI speakers or unique to the E145? Just curious.

-grumpy

edgewound
10-12-2006, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the additional info/description!. I've never seen an E145 with
an aluminum dome. Was this (including both dome types in the recone
kit) normal for JBL MI speakers or unique to the E145? Just curious.

-grumpy

I suppose it could have been a fluke with the E145 kits and not standard operating procedure.

The E155 recone kits also come with both domes. The reason being that the discontinued E151 had a paper dome, E155 aluminum dome.

Both E151 and E155 use the E155 recone kit.

scott fitlin
10-12-2006, 11:13 AM
With the E 155 and E 145 JBL offered the user a choice. Every time I had an E155 reconed they always tried to talk me into using the paper dustcap. :no:

With a 15in woofer, I always found that if the woofer was in a 3 way arrangement, woofer, horn, tweeter, then the aluminum dome worked well. But with a 4 way arrangement the paper dome on the woofer was better, but then we used a 12 with an aluminum dome! :D

Thom
10-13-2006, 06:52 PM
Well, I don't know if frankenwoofer works anywhere else but it sure doesn't like a small box. Just for the hell of it I pulled a 135A out of a flair and stuffed in in there. It sounded lihe I imagine a D130 would in a 2 cubic foot sealed enclosure. Next time I have something large that takes a 15 I'll try it again. It has an OC sticker on it. I wonder what they are looking for when they do it. Maybe it sounds good to a guitarist. If I don't find something it does ok I'll be stuck with it. I see the underhung voice coils being advertised about the same length as the overhung ones. Does this mean that the gap is that long (at least as long as the vc length plus the length of travel) I'm certainly no magnet expert but it would seam difficult too have an extremely intense force over that much area.

Thom
10-15-2006, 11:32 AM
At the risk of sombody hurting me, does someone Know the theory behind why this bastardization is done? In order to get rid of it I need to know the effect people believe they get from it. I'm not going to stick someone with it who won't be able to stand to listen to it when they get it. In the box I tried it in it isn't even listenable, at least not on Garcia and Grismon. Do people build it for the distortion? I already get the part about the parts shoudn't go together and it insults your sensibilities, but after the first one and they continue to be built, there has to be a reason. It doesnt have to be right. Also I have a 2225 kit. what can it go into. I see shops advertising 2225 kits in 130 frames. Is this also a no no? Before you get angry, I believe what you've told me so far, it's not about that. If I didn't have this I wouldn't get one, at least I haven't gone for the nigerian thing. I had no idea that all it takes to become a senior membor is not knowing when to shut up.

Zilch
10-15-2006, 11:45 AM
Call OCS. Ask to speak to one of their recone "experts" about what's up with it....

Mr. Widget
10-15-2006, 11:48 AM
At the risk of sombody hurting me....:blink:


...does someone Know the theory behind why this bastardization is done?The only reason that comes to mind is ignorance.


Do people build it for the distortion?I don't think it is something that people do... I would assume it is something that one special person did once, perhaps because he was really unaware of what he was doing and thought that this would somehow be better than a stock 2225, but honestly for anyone who has the slightest clue about how woofers work, this is about as wrong as one could get.


Also I have a 2225 kit. what can it go into. I see shops advertising 2225 kits in 130 frames. Is this also a no no?It is a much lesser no no...The E motor is a bit larger... The 2220A/H/J is also a no no. The 2225H will work perfectly in the 2234H, 2235H, 2205H/J, 136H... there may be others, but I can't think of them at present. Why not look for a 2225H core... they are relatively common.


I had no idea that all it takes to become a senior membor is not knowing when to shut up.:wtf:


Widget

Zilch
10-15-2006, 12:05 PM
I had no idea that all it takes to become a senior membor is not knowing when to shut up.You have "Standing," now.

[That don't mean you actually have to BEHAVE, tho.... :p ]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110042413127

edgewound
10-15-2006, 02:59 PM
This practice....I'll say it again....has not just been done once by mistake.

It is believed by some reconers that it's perfectly fine to recone the non-interchangeable baskets with other kits.

It's called, in short, "Greed"...or just sell what we have to an uninformed customer. Nothing else is involved with that.

About a year ago...JBL Pro informed me that E145 kits were being discontinued. I was furious. I had a couple kits on B/O for a few months when the news came to me.

Lo and behold the kits became un-discontinued. I held out and was able to finish my customer's repair before we consumated replacing his E145's in a 4628B with 2226H's.

But...I continually witness the reconing of 2220's with 2225 recone kits, and I've seen adapter-ringless E145's being reconed with 2225 kits.

Thom...good for you...you noticed that it sounds like crap, and it's a worthless repair done by reconers that have less than a Profeesional regard for this stuff.

Business is one thing....good business practices are another....and they should go hand in hand.

Do a search in the forum and you'll find a list of interchangeable baskets and recone kits. I'll post a link if I find it quick


Here's some discussion, and I know there's more too....just takes a little detective work.:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7850&highlight=interchangeability

Thom
10-15-2006, 03:51 PM
I've been the repair business long enough to not bat an eye at changing what the factory did. Hell my customer is different than theirs. My customer already knows how to break it the way the factory built it. However, I like to understand what I'm working with before I modify it. This sounded so bad that unless it was just a bad cabinet mix Knowbody could have thought it was right. If it wasn't for this forum I probably wouldn't be crucifying the speaker yet, I would think maybe I needed a 10 foot box or something. Where do you get information like gap dep depth. I still don't have that much respect for engineers, every thing they come up with a good tech has to make work befor it can be released, and with a few exceptions,usually ones who worked their way through school as techs, when you see an engineer with tools get out of there.Looking through the "goes into lists" is sometimes confusing. One can get the impression that certain speaker parts are in some cases compatable one direction only. But you cant tell for sure because that isn't what the list was made for. Sort of like when you use a replacement transistor catalog as an interchange guide. It works pretty good, sometimes. Any way is there info that would tell you where the coil will rest in relation to the gap. It seams to me completly possible that there could be some coil from some overhung that would function in a particular underhung quite well, just like it's completly possible there might not be. Without a doubt some square pegs fit some round holes. If you are using coils that are'nt alreadr assembled you could controll that some couldnt you? As far as the 130 frames I've got two D140's that would be perfect if I hadn't left them on my mom's porch for 20 years and I'm now aware of three ceramic mishaps. Does the coil sit where it should if you do that. I really am a do it the right sort of guy it's just I define it different. Factory isn't always it. Ever had a device go bad and it turns out to be a thermal fuse buried in the windings of a transformer. The thermal fuse opened like it was supposed to and saved the transformer only it's buried in the windings of the transformer so you have to buy a new transformer. Did I mis something? Any way are there specs or drawings or something. I thought it would be fairly easy with a depth gage but I can't distinguish anything.

toddalin
10-15-2006, 03:52 PM
OCS will put on any cone you ask for providing it fits the basket. Unforetunately, if you bring in a D130F and ask for a recone as a 130A, they will happily accomodate you without explaining that it is a no no. Just like, they will put the foams on the wrong side if you don't specify.

I had a pair of D130Fs and asked for a 130A recone to match my 130As (hey, I didn't know either) and I'm not sure what cone they really used, but it did have a paper cap and was probably a 130A. They sounded like the "real" 130As at normal volumes (clean and undistorted) except that they seemed to bottom out (with a loud crunch sound) sooner at very loud, low frequencies.

scott fitlin
10-15-2006, 04:02 PM
Unfortunately, Edgewound speaks the truth. For some shops, make the money is the only thing that counts, even if they dont have the right parts. They pull stunts like this with inexperienced users that dont know any better, they tell them, " Oh, this is the replacement cone for that woofer "! And becuase the people having their woofs reconed are inexperienced they fall for it.

I have had a recone shop TRY to tell me things like this, but, I cut em off right away. One time, I needed a 2441 diaphragm, they told me JBL no longer makes them, I knew damn well they did, and told the guy to shove the 2446 diaphragm up his A---, the WIDE way! some shops just dont want to order you parts, they want to sell what they have laying around.

:no:

The BEST one I ever saw, though, was another customer had a blown Cerwin Vega 18, they said they couldnt get Vega parts anymore, and told him they could fit an Eminence cone/coil in the Vega basket. I watched the guy trying hopelessly to get the Eminence coil to sit in the Vegas gap, it just would`nt go. The reconer ruined the coil, I laughed, and said Good for your A---! :applaud:

Stick to service centers that have good reputations, and pay the price! In the long run, it always best!

Thom
10-15-2006, 04:30 PM
Well now I'm just more confused I truly believed that all of the 15 inch 130 series were interchangable, except that some early (I don't know what that means) needed to be machined because todays coils were thicker. So that is why I wish you could really get specs. With transistors I'll take specs to an interchange anyday. You can figure out if it will work for your circumstances and if not why not so you can see if there is anything you can do about it. I realise that if you are putting it back in a system that you've already got nailed than it's different just like if you are putting a system together you have more choice or tolorance in drivers than if you are replacing a driver in a system that is "perfect"

Mr. Widget
10-15-2006, 05:24 PM
Where do you get information like gap dep depth. Any way are there specs or drawings or something.All factory authorized repair facilities have this info... JBL doesn't want any old idiot fucking up their products by sticking the wrong parts together or doing it badly... they are also careful not to encourage sticking any old cone, coil, surround, and spider into any old JBL frame... these practices will ruin the JBL reputation for quality. When done properly by a factory trained tech, a repaired JBL is as good as new... and that is typically pretty damned good. In the hands of some yahoo, you end up with Frankenwoofers or worse.

Many people on this forum have complained about JBL's practice of not selling factory recone kits directly to the public. This thread is proof that JBL is correct in not doing so.


Widget

Zilch
10-15-2006, 05:56 PM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75791 (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1572)

Thom
10-15-2006, 07:36 PM
Many people on this forum have complained about JBL's practice of not selling factory recone kits directly to the public. This thread is proof that JBL is correct in not doing so.


Actually this thread proves that that it's absurd to think they will stop this by keeping their product out of the hands of you and me it's almost always the big guy with connections that does this sort of thing and I think I have evidence here that they weren't stopped, and even if the parts were offshore and I mean off shore imported by someone other than JBL the listener doesn't know the difference and JBL still gets the credit. It's more to protect a monopoly that once existed. anyway thanks much for the information. It's much appreciated as will be any more information.

boputnam
10-15-2006, 08:35 PM
Hi, Zilch...

Giskard reminds of this corrected listing Cone Kit Interchangeability

;)

Mr. Widget
10-15-2006, 08:41 PM
Already fixed Bo... but here is some interesting additional info there...;)


Widget

Thom
10-15-2006, 09:45 PM
I'm having trouble coming up with much info on the E145. I probably don't need to know this but I'm having trouble visualizing the gap in this speaker and the right coil and the wrong coil. The stuff Im comming up with on underhung has to do with speakers with X max of 1 and 2 inches and more. I guess the top plate would have to be that thick or thicker. Anyway if someone has a link to a skeletel or a cutaway or something it would be appreciated. Thanks for the help you have already been.

Ian Mackenzie
10-15-2006, 09:53 PM
This is spooky.

I was picking up some XL connectors this morning from a Pro dealer (CC's Light and Sound) and I saw he had some E140, 2205 and 2225 baskets on the self for $80 bucks ea and they do recones. I must mystery shop on the phone and see what they say.

Ian

Robh3606
10-16-2006, 09:11 AM
Hello Thom

Look here,

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm


Rob:)

Thom
11-13-2006, 10:30 PM
Am I mistaken or is the primary problem with a 2225 kit in this frame that the vc starts out partly outside the gap and one direction it gets more magnet ang the other way it gets less magnet so the in and the out are not the same. Could one eliminate the distortion as simply as using 2 next to each other, one mounted in and one mounted out?

Robh3606
11-14-2006, 08:40 AM
The short answer no. Take a look at figure 2A and 2B in the referenced document when you drop a 2225 kit on top of an E-145 frame the coil will be off center in the gap. There is no way to correct that.

Rob:)

grumpy
11-14-2006, 08:48 AM
I think the question was in regard to attempting to nullifying the resulting distortion by
running two drivers physically inverted and out of phase. I don't think this would be a
worthwhile experiment... -grumpy

Robh3606
11-14-2006, 09:57 AM
Right the short answer no.

Rob:)

Thom
11-14-2006, 03:50 PM
I understand that it's a voice coil designed to be overhung in a gap designed for an underhung voice coil but I doubt if that by itself would do anything except give you something that you didn't know the specs of. If it would I'd be interested in knowing why or what. It looks to me like if the top plates are in the same positions regards the spider,and it looks to me like theye are, then if you use the coil for the overhung speaker spaced as for the over hung speaker it would be overhung on top and under hung on bottom and that couldn't help but be distorted barring some very clever engioneer designing a very special suspension. If I'm right I can't understand how several reconers I've spoken to (before I saw this) didn't see anything wrong with it at all. If any of this sounds like I'm teaching far from it sometimes I ask questions in funny ways and I always beat issues to death but I like to learn details. I've decided to learn about speakers. I don't know how long it will take or how many people won't speak to me or will turn out the lights when they see me comeing but when I'm done I'll know about speakers. Not like an engineer with a slide rule but if someone came to me with this I'd be able to tell them exactly it's wrong and also be able to swap stuff that could work. Please speak up and tell me where my observations are incorrect. Just saying "your screwd" will not be considered constructive even if it's true. Now if you can say "Your screwd and here's why" that's accepptable. Thank you.

Robh3606
11-14-2006, 04:43 PM
Hello Thom


If I'm right I can't understand how several reconers I've spoken to (before I saw this) didn't see anything wrong with it at all.

Beats me??? I know the guys who told me the same thing will never see any business from me. There are good and bad reconers like any other business. I don't see how they can say that droping in a factory 2225 kit. Could be they had no intention of using a JBL kit and were going to build up a kit or use an aftermarket kit where that can adjust the depth of the coil a bit. Need a reconner to explain if they could do that or not.

Rob:)

Thom
11-14-2006, 09:12 PM
Slightly different topic, same driver. I have recently aquired a brand new K145. Someones project that never came about. Near as I can tell, it has no vent. The foil with the bar pattern is totaly intact. I've seen them with slots in the foil and I've seen them with a square cut out of the foil, but I've never seen one solid like this. Is this a problem? When I say new, I do believe I was the first person to unbolt it from the board it came on. Do they all start out with no vent and people cut them? It is the first JBL I've ever seen with no vent. Also, I just removed a 135A and replaced it with an LE15A temporarily and I had to enlarge the hole to get it in. Sure took me by surprise. I know the motor is different but I allways thought the frame was the same.