I'm thinking size maybe really does matter!?

[BMWCCA]

I'm 53-years-old with a wife and three kids. I don't often get to listen music at loud levels around the house (unless one daughter is playing her sax or another is practicing her opera vocals, and then it's not really my choice), so with everyone gone tonight (second evening of daughter #2 in Pirates of Penzance—I saw opening night), I took the opportunity to really crank it up and listen to Steely Dan's Showbiz Kids compilation at a pretty loud level. Now at least one of my 030s have been in my home since I was still in diapers, the other I've had since about 1965. They've been used outside to DJ parties and can bounce music off the Blue Ridge Mountains and back. Tonight I've got the Crown DC300A-II attenuators at about half and the Soundcraftsmen DX4200 level control at about 12-o'clock, too. It's loud. Sounds great.

So then I take the CD into the other room where I've got the 4412As hooked to a Crown PS200—with a D150A-II ready to A-B those amps. Amp at 3/4, another DX4000 at 12-o'clock. Booming bass, for sure, but surprisingly not the level of clarity of the ancient boxes. Sure, it's half the power of the 300 but would the PS200 really make that much difference at levels you can still listen to without your ears bleeding? The point (really!) here is that I can hear stuff in the 030s that I really have to listen for in the 4412As. Subtle little tinkling of guitar strings in Dirty Work, and clear bass in Chain Lightning. Now don't get me wrong. I like the 4412As, as well as my L112s I've owned for over twenty years, but is it really possible that a nearly fifty-year-old 15" D130 that's sits there so aloof and unchallenged, barely moving at all, and a venerable 075 ring radiator crossed down to a range not really optimum for that UHF driver can make the 4412As sound that second-rate? I can comfortably listen to the 4412As (smaller room) with their heavy bass (still haven't gotten them up high enough for my taste), for hours and really enjoy them. But then I go back in the larger room (still only 12x16') and the 030s sound more fully instrumented with lots more detail. Okay, maybe I should control this test a bit better and have matching CD players. The 030s are playing through a Sony DVD carousel and the 4412As through an older Sony single play CD deck. Am I nutz? (Well, of course: I'm talking to a bunch of old farts about speakers a half-century old---an you own them, too!). Is there really no substute for cubic inches and cone area? Or am I blinded by the silver dust-caps of my youth?

And, for those of you still reading, is "blowing the dust out" at loud volume as therapeutic for the speakers as it is for me? I've been troubled by a harshness from one 030 system at about where I imagine the cross-over-point of the speakers to be—particularly irritating with female vocals. I've also been fighting a scratchy N2400 pot when investigating an 075 that doesn't always join the party after long periods of no use, though it joined in with the others immediately tonight. After three hours of loud, the harshness is no longer there. Can an 075 get crusty from lack of use in an old un-airconditioned house in the humid mid-Atlantic? I'm going to use that as my excuse for blowing the dust out in the future, regardless.

Thanks for your thoughts. I love the sound of loud music through a JBL!

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Tonight I've got the Crown DC300A-II attenuators at about half. It's loud. Sounds great.

Thanks for your thoughts. I love the sound of loud music through a JBL!

One suggestion...ok its more than a suggestion. Always run an amp with left/right gains on full and control the volume from the preamp or source.

Ken

[Titanium Dome]

Yeah, there's a lot of variables there, including room size, player, and amp.

I have a "system" to rotate through my too many JBLs and compare them at least three at a time. This way they have the same CD/DVD player, same preamp, same amp, same room, same distance to listening position, same music, etc. Even with all those similarities, different speaker sensitivities make some speakers sound better than others until the level is adjusted to the same dB. It's a tricky business.

I got a pair of those DX4200s. Still working after all these years.

[Titanium Dome]

One suggestion...ok its more than a suggestion. Always run an amp with left/right gains on full and control the volume from the preamp or source.

Ken

Yes, that's exactly what I do.

[BMWCCA]

Thanks for the suggestion. I've heard that before but never from the Crown tech staff in all the questions I've viewed on their site. One has to wonder why they put input attenuators on amps at all? To be quite honest I can't tell the difference and only adjust them so all the damn level lights (between the Crown PS200 and the Soundcraftsmen) stay relatively equal at normal listening levels and to keep the pre-amp volume pot in a useful range. The highly touted (in ads) volume pots on the Soundcraftsmen pre-amps (I've owned three) have all seemingly run one channel output weaker than the other at low levels. I sent one back (PE2217) twenty years ago to be checked and they replaced the pot, at no charge—and with no change. Even the newest ones with the improved stepped controls act the same.

So what is the reason for input attenator controls? A need to limit input voltage? If I run the Crowns full open, I never get the preamp controls past the first third of their range even at ear-piercing volume. Crown techs do say the input attenuators on most amps are not that accurate left to right and they only guarantee accuracy between channels at zero attenuation. That might be reason alone but my systems seem balanced L-R, and signal-to-noise doesn't seem to be an issue running the pots at less than full-open. I'm far from an engineer but it seems if the preamp output voltage is within the range of the power amp, all you're doing by attenuating the inputs is what you're doing when you lower the pre-amp output level. The Crown manuals state: "Independent level controls...are used to adjust the desired output level".

[Ken Pachkowsky]

If you run an amplifier with attenuators set to a lower output it limits the output of the amplifier. For example:

Low frequencies require more power to be reproduced without clipping at higher and higher volumes. If you limit your amplifier from producing its full rated output, you will cause it to clip or distort at lower volumes. Only the preamp or source volume control should be used to limit the amplifiers output.

Does that make sense to you?

PS: I prefer an amp with attenuators as they are powered up and down without attenuation. Consequently they are less susceptible to turn on or power down thumps.

Ken

[soundboy]

HUH?:blink: I have run sound and played pro for 30 years in bands. Also have several home systems. I frequently set my input level controls on my power amps at less than full on to balance out monitors, subs, or just lower the overall volume in a given room, and run the board masters up.....there is plenty of headroom in my system to do this. Unless your amps have output power attenuators (?) turning down the input sensitivity in no way effects the power output of the amp. It still puts out full power...it just takes more input voltage to drive it there....also, with a higher preamp level, the pots are more evenly balanced left to right....I have noticed this in some preamps as well...maybe I missed something:blink:

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Perhaps I am mistaken then? I am sure someone will clarify it.

Ken

[Mr. Widget]

Unless your amps have output power attenuators (?) turning down the input sensitivity in no way effects the power output of the amp. It still puts out full power...it just takes more input voltage to drive it there....Yep!

However, the sound quality and the system's signal to noise ratio will both likely suffer... not by much and you'll probably never notice it in a pro application, but if you want the highest sound quality from your amp... remove the input pots completely.


Widget

[spkrman57]

The 030's are so efficient that I doubt it would be noticed compared to a amp running lesser efficient speakers.

Ron

[Titanium Dome]

On my Hafler amps, the recommended setting is "0" unless there is a need to balance the system.

This need might result from using speakers with different impedance loads, such as a 4 Ohm on channel A and an 8 Ohm on channel B. It's fine (on these amps) to put different loads on each channel as long as the correct load is selected for each channel. Then the higher load would be set at "0" and the lower load dialed back until it matched.

Another situation might be speakers with the same load but different sensitivities.

Another might be bi-amping where you want the amps close to the speakers so you're using channel A on LF and channel B on HF and the upstream crossovers need a little assistance in gain control.

Of course there are more elegant (and expensive) solutions to all these situations, but they still come up in the real world and need immediate solving, so the independent level controls are a blessing.

If you're doing pro sound and using a mixer, this is less of a concern than in a (vintage) home set up where there's usually a unity gain control and balance control on the preamp rather than individual channel controls. However, with more modern processors, I'd start with all amp channels at "0" and do the system balancing in the preamp's calibration modes, leaving any attenuation at the amp as a last resort.

[Don Mascali]

I don't agree with some of the statements above.

A little suggested reading on setting amplifier gain controls.

http://www.rane.com/note135.html

IMHO:
When using digital components it is suggested to use maximum levels in the pre-amp/active crossovers and set the amps accordingly.

Setting up my system gain structure as decribed in this tech note lowered the noise floor considerably. My tweeters had alot of hiss before and none is perceptable now.

An amplifier will provide rated output at a given input voltage where ever the antenuators are positioned.

[JBLnsince1959]

I like the 4412As, as well as my L112s I've owned for over twenty years, but is it really possible that a nearly fifty-year-old 15" D130 that's sits there so aloof and unchallenged, barely moving at all, and a venerable 075 ring radiator crossed down to a range not really optimum for that UHF driver can make the 4412As sound that second-rate? Thanks for your thoughts.

I love the sound of loud music through a JBL!



YES, it is...You will hear things with a D130 that nothing can come close to... I know I've been listening and comparing "new Speakers" to some C35's for almost 50 years. When my Mom moved back in with my Dad in 59 he had bought a a pair of C35's with the D-130 and 175 compression and horn ( he bought the UFH later)... To this day I'm blown away by how stuff sounds thru it ( I got them when he passed away) and what a thrill it is to listen.. I've done many of side by side A/B comparisons..

Now let me clarify what I mean, yes, you will hear things on those speakers in a manner than nothing else can come close to. The sound is bigger than life and the D-130 working thru the bass, midbass and lower midrange...shows it's stuff...

now, here's what I think of the C35's ( and I've heard your setup also) will you hear things as BALANCED as other speakers?.....no. Does the D-130 from 800 to 1200( and above) sound as articulate, sharp and detailed as the new speakers....no. Does the horn and compression drive maybe "HONK"..well yes. Does it have "DEEP bass"...no (music was different in the 50's). Does the UFH tweeter get a little "rough ".... sure. So there's a lot of things it's not or doesn't do as well as new speakers....but you know, no speaker is perfect and each has it's flaws if you listen closely..


One thing the D-130 does that nothing else can do as well.. it projects a hugh sound stage where everything sounds "right there"...and that pulls you into the music with full emotion.

The old speakers are super great toe-tappers and are great for experiencing the emotional side of music....me and my friends are still surprised when we fire up those old babies.

enjoy...

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I can think of several times I wished I could turn down the gains on my other amps but did not because of that misconception. Always learning something here.

Ken

[JBLnsince1959]

The point (really!) here is that I can hear stuff in the 030s that I really have to listen for in the 4412As. Subtle little tinkling of guitar strings in Dirty Work, and clear bass in Chain Lightning.



ain't it great.....That's the thing about those systems, everything is "right There" for you to experience. No hard listening...easy to enjoy....

around 1994 when my father passed away and I got them, I stored away the "old" stuff and replace with the "new" stuff ( E-130, 2425, 2402 etc) and used both for my center speaker in my HT setup ( that was before I moved in with a lady - ha). Had each one with their own Mararntz 200 watt mono blocks ( MA700's)..amazing, hugh sound......

When I got my 4430's I did an A/B test and at first blush the 4430's sound dark and closed in by comparison. The 4430 did have much better low bass, but how often does music play there?..I'm not into organ music..Don't get me wrong, the 4430's stomp the C35's in many ways...but does it mean I enjoy the music more?

One thing I've been wanting to do with them, since they don't do low bass, I've wanted to get a pair of E-145's and cross them over around 100 to 120 or so and play the Living S**T" out of them...some day..

bottom-line, for all their faults ( and there are many from an audiophile prespective ) there are no speakers I know of that give you a sound that engages a person's emotions so completely..

I miss having mine setup ( they're in storage)

[Titanium Dome]

I don't agree with some of the statements above.

A little suggested reading on setting amplifier gain controls.

http://www.rane.com/note135.html

IMHO:
When using digital components it is suggested to use maximum levels in the pre-amp/active crossovers and set the amps accordingly.

Setting up my system gain structure as decribed in this tech note lowered the noise floor considerably. My tweeters had alot of hiss before and none is perceptable now.

An amplifier will provide rated output at a given input voltage where ever the antenuators are positioned.

From the Rane note cited:
Information contained in this work has been obtained by Rane Corporation from sources believed to be reliable. However, neither Rane nor its author guarantees the accuracy or completeness of any information published herein and neither Rane nor its author shall be responsible for any errors, omissions, or damages arising out of use of this information.

I'm not ragging on Rane per se. Rather, maybe we should all put this at the end of every bit of advice we give. ;)

If I had some Rane equipment, I'd follow their advice on how to set it up. Since I don't, I'll follow the advice of the manufacturers of the equipment I have. :yes:

Anyway, we're kind of off track here. The original message I made was to say different amps, different rooms, different sources = different sound.

[BMWCCA]

YES, it is...You will hear things with a D130 that nothing can come close to... I know I've been listening and comparing "new Speakers" to some C35's for almost 50 years.
<SNIP>
Now let me clarify what I mean, yes, you will hear things on those speakers in a manner than nothing else can come close to. The sound is bigger than life and the D-130 working thru the bass, midbass and lower midrange...shows it's stuff...
One thing the D-130 does that nothing else can do as well.. it projects a hugh sound stage where everything sounds "right there"...and that pulls you into the music with full emotion.
<SNIP>
The old speakers are super great toe-tappers and are great for experiencing the emotional side of music....me and my friends are still surprised when we fire up those old babies.Thanks for expressing my feelings in a much more articulate manner. That's exactly what I experience with the D130/075 combination in the big boxes. I suppose you and I might agree: "Size does matter!"

As for the amp input controls, at the direction of a member of the Crown forums, I searched under the key words "gain structure" and found this reference from David Glass of the Crown technical staff, FWIW:

Now…… if you turn the input level controls down…. Yes…. it will take a larger input signal to get to full output because the input signal is being attenuated but the gain of the amplifier hasn’t changed[,] only the amount of signal getting to the amplifier.
Think of the input level controls as being the same thing as if you had an external level control before the amplifier (and the amp had no level controls).
..... By being able to drive the mixer hotter you will get the best signal to noise ratio from the mixer and if you don’t need it that loud in a room [then] you can turn down the amp and still maintain the S/N of the mixer.

[spkrman57]

Check out my future system below in my signature block.

I had recones to E140's reconed to E-130's with paper dustcaps(2235).

They are similiar to 2225's in my Edgarhorns.

Efficiency and smooth sound, in a 2.5 cubic ft box no less. Much smaller than horns!;)

Nice small cabinet.

Ron

[BMWCCA]

Here's a current answer to my inquiry on this topic (not really related to th original question about 030/C37 sound quality anymore, but...) from David Glass of Crown Audio:

...If you need more system level turn up the amp and you will have it. Running it the other way you will max out the amp and have to do all sorts of level changes and input gain adjustment to get more from the system.

This is why amplifiers have volume controls and why it is best to set the mixer and preceding gear to be hitting 0VU at the maximum you would be running the system. Then turn the amp up for as loud as you need it for the room.

When working with a non-metered Preamp, 3/4 of the way up on the preamp output is a good place to start as this is usually about the nominal output.
:)So, you maximize the S/N of your input device and set the power amp accordingly. Pretty much what I've been doing for the past 32 years with my Crowns.
Thanks to everyone for their input. A day shouldn't go by that we don't learn something. If it does, it's our fault for not asking the right questions.

[Steve Schell]

JBLnsince1959, your comments about the D-130 made me smile. Having been designed in 1946, it pretty much predates the concept of adding driver moving moving mass to achieve low bass in a small box. Most decisions in speaker design involve gains and losses. Adding mass to a cone will lower the resonance, but some degree of subtlety is lost in its sound as it struggles to drag all the mass along while tracking the ever-changing signal. Of course a thicker cone will play louder before the onset of breakup, another reason why modern speakers have heavier cones.

This is the sort of thing that is not necessarily revealed by measurements, and some theorists will argue that added mass should make no difference below the mass break point. Our ears tell the tale, though. D-130s, especially the earliest ones, have very thin cones driven by a strong motor. Your description of the huge soundstage and everything sounding like it is right there indicate that your speakers are rendering the low level, microvolt signals well. People often describe vintage field coil speakers the same way.

A D-130 will sound snarly and unpleasant to me if it is run too high in frequency. I think this is mostly the aluminum center dome misbehaving. Maybe what we need are D-130s fitted with beryllium domes! Anyway, crossed over at 1.2kHz. or lower, it is hard to beat in the ways that matter to me.

[scott fitlin]

Well, I have many different woofers for my system. The newer JBL 2226,s and TAD 1603,s will give you a stronger bass response, but, I always return to my favorite Altec woofers.

With the heavier cone woofers, the bass kick is great, but I lose the inner detail of the music, and the lower mids are less prominent, something I find unacceptable, and cannot live with. Doesnt mean the newer woofers dont work, just that I prefer the toe tapping, fast snappy sound, and hearing all the music like its right there in front of me being played live via my Altec 15in woofers.

Big boxes, and very efficient woofers, because to me, IT aint all about watts.

[Thom]

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this thread. I thought I'd throw in what I'll readily admit is a personal opinion that the D140 (K,E) might just be the best compromise. I realise that anything I might say in favor of the 130 Will bring out people who haven't posted yet (music is supposed to be exiting isn't it?) I just went to a hell of a show this weekend in speedway meadows in goldengate park and there wasn't any vintage JBL (vintage stars, Hot Tuna, Bob Wier many many others ) and the sound suffered for it. Now that I've probably revitalized all of the "I hate D130" crowd that missed the first part of this, I won't change any minds here either as it appears that there are too schools of thought here each who don't understand why the other "just don't get it".
Power amps have input level controls on them to make them more flexible.Most power amps will work with most preamps with with the level controls in a variety of posistions including wide open. Most is not all. Also you might want to run more than one power amp from a preamp and the level controls give you the ability to adjust them reletive to one another. Other wise you are probably best adjusting them for the least noise. If your preamp has a ceartain level of noise that is the same regardless of the preamp gain setting then the lower you run the gain on your power amp the lower that noise will be in your speakers. (you all have noise it's just a matter of whether or not it's enough to hear or not. Equipment placement might come into play here also. If your preamp is 40 feet from your power amp thats 40 feet of lead to pick up noise before your power amp and you might want to run your power amp gain as low as possible. And it is just the gain or multiplication if you will not the output that you are turrning down. The fourty foot leads are also a good place for interconnects where both signal carrying conductors are inside the shield and the shield is grounded only on the source end so that current cannot flow through the shield. Any way, black and white answers would be so much easier for us to understand but it's a colour world.

[JBLnsince1959]

Maybe what we need are D-130s fitted with beryllium domes! .

Great idea...Brilliant!!!!:applaud: Yes, wouldn't it be great if they would do some research and use the best of the old as you described and use new materials.



Adding mass to a cone will lower the resonance, but some degree of subtlety is lost in its sound as it struggles to drag all the mass along while tracking the ever-changing signal. Of course a thicker cone will play louder before the onset of breakup, another reason why modern speakers have heavier cones.

Our ears tell the tale, though. D-130s, especially the earliest ones, have very thin cones driven by a strong motor. Your description of the huge soundstage and everything sounding like it is right there indicate that your speakers are rendering the low level, microvolt signals well. People often describe vintage field coil speakers the same way.

.


My dad bought his first one around 1955 and then another one around 1957 or 1958 so he could play that new thing called stereo;) ...All the old transducers are stored away and I only play them about once a year with his old MAC Stuff. I'm sure both D-130's have the narrow gap and I'll never be able to recone them, so I'm very careful. Yes, there's nothing like the high efficiency, low mass, powerful motor big puppies..I still love them and yes, our ears do tell the tale. I use two Cd's to "educate" my audiophile friends...first CD is Pink Floyds' "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" "To the Unkown Man" ( first song); the sound of the paddles hitting the water and when the multiple low voices come in...everyone says..I never heard THAT before. The second CD is Duke Ellington - Newport News...this one is for just shear emotion and people get up and start dancing!!!

I've done side by side A/B comparions of one C-35 with the old ( D-130 etc) and the other C-35with the new stuff ( E-130 etc) and the D-130 sounds sooooo much better.

anyway, I love the sound..nothing like it....sounds like you and I certainly agree...Thanks for the post....
PS - love that avatar:D

[scott fitlin]

Indeed, I always find myself NOT being able to " modernize " because I lose something soooo desirable that I get with that older High Efficiency stuff. And the transient repsonse is scary.

I was playing Ella Fitgerald and Louis Armstrong-Summertime, from the Porgy and Bess CD, you hear his horn and her voice so vividly, and so effortlessly, WITHOUT having to push the system, it does something I havent been able to achieve with newer audio gear.

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.

[JBLnsince1959]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.

yes....:D

[Storm]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.


Same here! Love that CD - play it at least 1 time a day...just love the bass, INCREDIBLE!

:D

[scott fitlin]

yes....:DThe thing is, last evening we were open, Jewish holiday, the Orthodox come out, and give their kids a good time at Coney Island, and while the Porgy and Bess CD was playing, and it was towards the end of the day, this guy walks in, carrying a trumpet case. Im watching him just listening. When the song ended, "I got Plenty Of Nothing" is what was playing, I asked him what he thought.

He said he was on his way to the train station to go to a gig in Manhattan, and he walked in because it sounded like someone was playing in here, not a CD, but he thought I had a band in here playing!

A better compliment I couldnt ask for, and from a musician!

:)

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Thom

I can only speak for myself but admit for 30+ years I believed the gains on an amp were to be on high unless powering up or down. I never questioned it. After reading the replies, it makes perfect sense that the gains pots can be adjusted.

Ken

[MJC]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.


Same here! Love that CD - play it at least 1 time a day...just love the bass, INCREDIBLE!

:D
I think the analog version(lp) would be better. Any music sounds better in analog than its cd counterpart. DVD-audio, well, that's a different thing altogether.

[scott fitlin]

I think the analog version(lp) would be better. Any music sounds better in analog than its cd counterpart. DVD-audio, well, that's a different thing altogether.You are right, but I didnt have the album on vinyl in my cases at work. So, I have the CD, and it does work. I also run a piece that uses a 12AX7A vacuum tube in here, does WONDERS for CD,s!

But, yes, the vinyl still does sound even better!

[Titanium Dome]

Oh, you guys! :rotfl:

I'm just so happy for you. :D

[scott fitlin]

Oh, you guys! :rotfl:

I'm just so happy for you. :DIf it dont weigh enough, It cant play enough!

:D

[boputnam]

Can an 075 get crusty from lack of use in an old un-airconditioned house in the humid mid-Atlantic? Careful with your ears - they are yours, afterall...

One thing NOT mentioned here (there is a bunch of stuff in that OP... :p ), diaphragms do fatigue with age. They change character - some say, become "brittle". Dunno. But I do know that replacing them can yield a smoother and more pleasing response.

There's a Thread on here about Refresh your Vintage Compression Drivers or somesuch. Give it consideration...