best route to "big" JBLs

[jleblanc]

Hello!

I've been really enjoying collecting and listening to some older JBLs. I have a set of L150a, L26, L100, and L36 speakers, various other bits, mostly in really nice shape. My old boss had a mint pair of 4343s in his listening room, and I'm quickly realizing that no matter how much I like my "little" JBLs, what I really want is the big sound his setup had.

So, lets pretend I was to liquidate half my collection, scrape together some cash, and had $1500-2k to spend on a set of "big" JBLs, something similar to the 4343. Do I: 1) scour ebay and hope for the best 2) look locally and wait forever to find the right speaker (I'm in Seattle) 3) beg someone on here to sell me theirs :D 4) DIY it, find some cases (or make my own) and loose drivers.

I'm comfortable enough with my skill to repair or put together most anything that I need to, so I'm not afraid of a project.

Lend me some wise words on the best way to anger my wife with LARGE speakers in the basement! :bouncy:

[Rolf]

The easiest (and maybe the best?) way is to find a pair of originals. With that said, building your own cabinets will probably don't take any more time than to restore a pair of original cabinets, AND you got to do something with the networks in the originals anyway, so if you have the skills build them. (Cabinet builders ... climb in here)

If you decide to build, you must get your hands of the components. As far as I have seen on e-bay, buying the components, probably from different sellers costs more the to buy a complete pair of originals. Not sure if your budget will hold. Here in Europe it won't.

[Zilch]

Find a pair of 4430s up there locally. Go listen to them.

If you like them, you're done.... :thmbsup:

[$1000 - $1500, depending on condition.]

[Rolf]

Find a pair of 4430s up there locally. Go listen to them.

If you like them, you're done.... :thmbsup:

[$1000 - $1500, depending on condition.]

In my opinion the 4343 is a better speaker:wave: than the 4430 Zilch. But that's me.:D

[Mr. Widget]

In my opinion the 4343 is a better speaker:wave: than the 4430 Zilch. But that's me.:DI wouldn't say that the 4343 is a "better" speaker... but if I had to listen to one or the other, I'd pick the 4343 myself.

Personally, I'd DIY a pair of 4345s... still not perfect, but nothing is and they are damned fine. There is plenty of info on these speakers on this forum... a few years ago there was only one pair on this forum and they got passed along from one forum member to another, but today there are several forum members who own factory 4345s and several who have built their own.

While I wouldn't say that the 4343 is superior to the 4430, I would say that the 4345 is superior to both the 4343 and the 4430.


Widget

[Zilch]

In my opinion the 4343 is a better speaker:wave: than the 4430 Zilch. But that's me.:D
No doubt, Rolf.

Following my recommendation, tho, he gets to keep his L100s.... :p

[jleblanc]

Thanks for the advice guys, I like the idea of the 4345s. It it reasonable to find a set of drivers (and crossover, or would I likely have to make that myself?) for under $2k? I'll look around on here and see what other people have done.


No doubt, Rolf.

Following my recommendation, tho, he gets to keep his L100s.... :p

If I'm keeping anything, it's the L150a!

[Mr. Widget]

If I'm keeping anything, it's the L150a!He was joking... that's just a Zilchism.:D

You would need to build your own networks, but there is plenty of info on doing that here as well. I haven't priced drivers lately, but I am sure you could spend way too much if you grab the first pretty ones to come along, but with care you should be in that price range. I'd recommend that you buy as many of the drivers as clean cores as possible and have them professionally rebuilt.


Widget

[Fangio]

I wouldn't say that the 4343 is a "better" speaker... but if I had to listen to one or the other, I'd pick the 4343 myself.
Now I DO wish I had kept the 4430's that I sold earlier this year, for an a/b comparison. There wasn't just enough room for both. So far the 4343's don't let me miss anything here, quite the contrary.


Personally, I'd DIY a pair of 4345s... still not perfect, but nothing is and they are damned fine. There is plenty of info on these speakers on this forum... a few years ago there was only one pair on this forum and they got passed along from one forum member to another, but today there are several forum members who own factory 4345s and several who have built their own.

While I wouldn't say that the 4343 is superior to the 4430, I would say that the 4345 is superior to both the 4343 and the 4430.


Widget
I doubt a DIY 4345 can be done with 1,5-2k in $. I've exceeded this with the assembling of 4343's already, to get everything in desired shape. Paid for vintage cabs and networks though, instead of building them myself.


This pic is interesting, did you know they were for sale (http://hifi4me.de/de/hifi/hifi.php?str=JBL&artId=2185&PHPSESSID=2cf3511fcc37ce81f64afc2251102869), and sold.. though I'm not sure if the deal is completed yet.

(http://hifi4me.de/de/hifi/hifi.php?str=JBL&artId=2185&PHPSESSID=2cf3511fcc37ce81f64afc2251102869)

[jleblanc]

Wow, I just read through the 4345 DIY thread with the pics/description of John's speakers. Holy !@$% those are stunning. Probably a little beyond my budget and expertice at the moment, unfortunately. Maybe in a few years!

Does anyone in the Seattle area know of who I should check with to find a local pair? I'll put in a word at Hawthorne Stereo to have them keep an eye open, but I don't know any other dealers/stores/individuals in the area that might come across this kind of gear.

[Mr. Widget]

Does anyone in the Seattle area know of who I should check with to find a local pair?They are extremely rare... I doubt you will find a local factory pair. John is in Renton though... you maybe able to coax him into an audition.

As for cost... a pair of DIY 4345s should cost only a couple of hundred dollars more than a pair of DIY 4343s. They are physically much bigger though as the 18" 2245H needs almost twice the volume as the 15" 2231.


Widget

[jleblanc]

They are extremely rare... I doubt you will find a local factory pair. John is in Renton though... you maybe able to coax him into an audition.

As for cost... a pair of DIY 4345s should cost only a couple of hundred dollars more than a pair of DIY 4343s. They are physically much bigger though as the 18" 2245H needs almost twice the volume as the 15" 2231.


Widget

Definitely not expecting to find (or be able to afford) a factory 4345 locally, but rather anything similar, 4430, etc.

[Robh3606]

I did a pair of 4344 for about $1500 actually less, however I was lucky. I had a lot of things fall into place and it was a while ago so the prices were lower on the recones. A friend did the crossovers and I did the cabinets. So the cost for me was the drivers.

Figure $350-400 for the pair of 15" 2235's. That's an average price used and if you got cores at $50 a pop about $150-175 each for a recone with current prices. 2245's are going to run higher on the recones and cores

2122's are very hard to find so you would be better off again doing cores with E110 as an example figure $50 each. I think they are about $200+ each on the recones if they are still available. Puts them in the same ballpark as the woofer cost wise.

2425's/2426's are all over the place and you can get pairs for as low as $200-350

The 2307 and H91 you have to go looking for and prices on them are all over the block figure $100-150 on the horns and the potentially the same on the lenses.

The 2405's again are all over the place. I scored a pair for $69 BIN but I was lucky. Figure $100-150 each depending on condition.

Then you need crossovers and cabinets. Crossover you will have to build and the cabinets you can have built if you can't do them yourself.

I tried to give you an idea of what a scratch built DIY might cost you. If you are patient you may be able to do it in your range or for a little more than your high figure. It's all the luck of the draw with Ebay. I have gotten some real steals but it's takes a while.The 2122's are the key to this whole project. You can always get the other drivers. If you are serious about the 4344/4345 find out if the recone kits are available and get them first.

Good Luck

Rob:)

[SUPERBEE]

I would scour CL, EeePay, and your local fishwraps till you find a set of JBL Olympus, L-300's, or 43?? that you like and can actually go and hear before you pick them up.
Or buy one of the said sets from a trusted person here like I did for my friend Bill (Thanx Mike) and have them properly crated and delivered.

[toddalin]

Hello!

I've been really enjoying collecting and listening to some older JBLs. I have a set of L150a, L26, L100, and L36 speakers, various other bits, mostly in really nice shape. My old boss had a mint pair of 4343s in his listening room, and I'm quickly realizing that no matter how much I like my "little" JBLs, what I really want is the big sound his setup had.

So, lets pretend I was to liquidate half my collection, scrape together some cash, and had $1500-2k to spend on a set of "big" JBLs, something similar to the 4343. Do I: 1) scour ebay and hope for the best 2) look locally and wait forever to find the right speaker (I'm in Seattle) 3) beg someone on here to sell me theirs :D 4) DIY it, find some cases (or make my own) and loose drivers.

I'm comfortable enough with my skill to repair or put together most anything that I need to, so I'm not afraid of a project.

Lend me some wise words on the best way to anger my wife with LARGE speakers in the basement! :bouncy:

OK, wife would like these out of the house. $1K/pair bottom line and you pick up or arrange to have shipped from Orange County, CA.

C50 monitors with an S7 load including LE15As (reconed by OCS in Dec 1994), LE85's, HL-91's, and LX-5s. These include custom made brackets and 6 foot stands. Cabinets are beautiful and on a scale of 1 - 10, speakers are 9.5+.

Add an 075/077 and N7000/N8000 (or the equivelent caps/coils), if desired.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_0002.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_0005.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_0008.jpg


http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_00091.jpg

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/DSC_0007.jpg

[jleblanc]

OK, wife would like these out of the house. $1K/pair bottom line and you pick up or arrange to have shipped from Orange County, CA.

C50 monitors with an S7 load including LE15As (reconed by OCS in Dec 1994), LE85's, HL-91's, and LX-5s. These include custom made brackets and 6 foot stands. Cabinets are beautiful and on a scale of 1 - 10, speakers are 9.5+.

Add an 075/077 and N7000/N8000 (or the equivelent caps/coils), if desired.


I'm not a huge fan of the granite cabinets, but that would be a nice setup to put in a new cab... Are there grills for them too?

How do those sit on the stands? They seem way too big for such a small stand.

[toddalin]

I'm not a huge fan of the granite cabinets, but that would be a nice setup to put in a new cab... Are there grills for them too?

How do those sit on the stands? They seem way too big for such a small stand.

Original finish was utility grey and the production company had the floor stands and speaker brackets made custom and the speakers and stands redone in zolotone.

The stands have a BIG threaded fitting on top that goes through a hole in the speaker bracket mount. A big nut and lock washer hold them in place.

Agreed that once on the stands, the speakers are precariously balanced, but the floor plates have 4 holes (one in each corner) that could be used to secure them down.

There are no grills.

[Thom]

If you want big get yourself either one or two D130's per side, depending on what you mean by big, get an 075 for each side, throw in which ever horn and driver floats your boat, but if you use two 130's per side get a big one and if you need that last little bit at the bottom I guess you could do it with an LE15A or maybe an 18 but they will need their own amp or else you will have to pad every thing else back. If your good with wood there is a guy on EBAY who sells plans to 4520 cabinets. The 4520 is a huge horn cabinet but these speakers need a large cabinet anyway. You'll need 2 d130's on each side for that and I think you will be happy with the bottom end you not only won't ever wonder whether it's an upright or an electric bass. I'll bet if you were expert at such things you would know what brand. That's big and that's what JBL sounds like. Electric or acoustical music makes no difference. There used to be an audio demo record, I think it was JBL's but I'm not sure. There were a couple of cuts on there by pentangle and compared to this setup an S8 was somewhat sloppy and an S8R was mush. There's your acoustic and Jerry Garcia had a solo album, had a picture of a synthesiser or a counsole, and when that came on it was absolutley scarey and Nillson was awsome. today I can't figure out why that album was even interesting. That is JBL. I don,t think they discontinued these speakers because peoples taste in sound changed, they discontinued them because the space they take up takes up cost tomuch money. I've seen people sell their S8R and buy a C40 (seems it was called a Harkness) with a D130, a 175 DLH, and an 075 (the 077 existed as a four digit pro unit only at that time.) Seems they need this soap box for something else right now so that will have to do it.

[Mr. Widget]

If you want big get yourself...Seeing that jleblanc seems to really appreciate his L150As.... and has expressed an interest in the 4343s, I'd suggest that he is more in tuned with the large studio monitor type sound. The D130s are dynamic as all get out, but for someone looking for a more accurate reproduction, they may leave him wanting.

The 001s and supersized 001s you are describing are certainly cool, but I'd suggest they are for a specific type of listening experience.


Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

Seeing that jleblanc seems to really appreciate his L150As.... and has expressed an interest in the 4343s, I'd suggest that he is more in tuned with the large studio monitor type sound. The D130s are dynamic as all get out, but for someone looking for a more accurate reproduction, they may leave him wanting.

The 001s and supersized 001s you are describing are certainly cool, but I'd suggest they are for a specific type of listening experience.


Widget

I agree with Widget 100%, take his advise.... the D130's are 50's tech...great speaker, but not much on the low end. They start to loss fast below 150 and have other issues as well. Music is different now than what it was in the 50's and a D130 system, while nice to have, is not up to todays standards by any means...

as a person who has listen to the C35's since 1959 I know a little about this. I redid the C35's with new transducers ( E series, 2225's etc) and used them for center channel on my "mother of all HT's" system that's about all their good for..that and nostalgia listening( when I put the old stuff back in)

Listen to Widget..he knows....

[toddalin]

Doesn't matter how many D130s you use. Unless you use lots of eq, they don't produce "real" bass. With multiple D130's (or even 130A's) you just compound the problem. Been there, done that, and replaced them with 2235's.

Even with the 130A's (shown in the first picture), that go lower than the D130s, when my Yamaha RX-Z9 would go though auto eq, it ALWAYS reported these speakers as "small."

From this:

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/speaker2.jpg

To this:

The Yamaha now reports these as "large."

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/L200-2235.jpg

[JBLnsince1959]

Doesn't matter how many D130s you use. Unless you use lots of eq, they don't produce "real" bass. With multiple D130's (or even 130A's) you just compound the problem. Been there, done that, and replaced them with 2235's.



10-4, agree with that BIG TIME....good way to say it...

and even if you do use lots of eg it'll never "get you there", the D130 is really a Mid-range speaker ....

Todays music makes much more demands of the lower notes....

[Thom]

First I'm not sure how many people have actually had a pair of C55 cabinets in their living room that's a 13 foot folded horn. A C40 is a 6 foot horn. The cabinet was specificly designd to take over at 150 cps (thats what they called it when the cabinet was designed) and if he wants to bother his wife a bit, these babies will do it before he ever hooks a wire to them. They are awsome. Actually I used to live on 32 acres and the guy who owned the sod farm down the street used to come and threaten me all the time. Didn't matter if it was the Dead or Jimmy Buffet, just not a music lover I guess. And all I had to hook them to was a Haffler 500. However if some moderation is to be used, and the C55's are out, I've allready stated that they can use a sub, and matching a sub to D130's is never easy but when a guy with JBL's gets in an argument with one of those cat or poodle lovers with rogers or JR's (it's in jest)or what ever the flaver is this month isn't it always "but these have dynamic range." Well, 130's have dynamic range!! I expect that some of the monitors you refer to that I've not heard have conquered this, but with the S7 and S8 there was always that spot where the LE15a really wasn't comfortable and neither was the LE85 or the 375 although with the right horn the 375 would have been. The D130 doesn,t have that problem at all. The truth is, there isn't a right way. I wouldn't carry on like this at all if I wasn't so blown away that this is a sight that I'm under the impression,and I'm real new here so I might have the wrong impression and I can't stomp with heavy boots, is devoted to "vintage JBL" and every thing you worship was made in the common hardon days. I'm not saying what you like is bad. I haven't heard some of it and I'd probably like a lot of it but it isn't anything that other people havn't done and weren't doing before or concurrently with JBL. When the D130 came out it was without peer. When the 175 DLH was introduced to Hi Fi what compared to it. There is nothing that JBL makes today or has introduced in at least 20 years that leads the industry like these did when they were introduced. I'll concede every wonder you want to give them for the sound of their new showpiece and I think that statement will still stand. I don't have the system I want anymore either. There is no room. But the sound that was always associated with JBL was the D130. People used to buy that when that was all they could afford, then when they had more money mabe a tweeter then later maybe----- I think their bookshelf stuff might have gone another direction but selfpowered subs are so new. Today in a small box you could put a D123 (aD131 needs almost box as a D130) and a 075 and run a sub, but if you had to run a passive sub you couldn't do it the D123 is too efficient. That really would give you a lot more of a JBL sound than a 100.


"Thats 50's technology" I'm not saying your wrong but some guy was saying that in the 70's Omar something started with a B it will come to me any minute. He's still doing it and if you check some forums some guys want to fight over bose and I'm sure they make a lot of money.There is new technology but there is still gravity that's pretty old and not only do we still hear the same we haven't even renamed any of the bones in the ear. I'm not saying you're wrong just don't be so dismissive. Chech out the link and try to say that about anything else in audio. I've got to admit the first guy to put a motor on a phonagraph had something.

Hell everybody has probably turned the page by now.

Anybody know why I used to be able to copy and paste and now I can't. I'm to busy being paranoid about other things for this to be a conspiracy so there must be a simple answer.

[speakerdave]

First I'm not sure how many people have actually had a pair of C55 cabinets in their living room that's a 13 foot folded horn. A C40 is a 6 foot horn. The cabinet was specificly designd to take over at 150 cps (thats what they called it when the cabinet was designed) and if he wants to bother his wife a bit, these babies will do it before he ever hooks a wire to them. They are awsome. Actually I used to live on 32 acres and the guy who owned the sod farm down the street used to come and threaten me all the time. Didn't matter if it was the Dead or Jimmy Buffet, just not a music lover I guess.
It's funny, sometimes, Thom.


But the sound that was always associated with JBL was the D130.
Yes, there's some truth to that, and it was wonderful indeed, but in some ways JBL is still trying to live it down.


Today in a small box you could put a D123 (aD131 needs almost box as a D130) and a 075 and run a sub, but if you had to run a passive sub you couldn't do it the D123 is too efficient.
Yes, keeping to the downsized scale, it probably would not be easy to get a sub to keep up with the D123.


I wouldn't carry on like this at all if I wasn't so blown away that this is a sight that I'm under the impression,and I'm real new here so I might have the wrong impression and I can't stomp with heavy boots, is devoted to "vintage JBL" and every thing you worship was made in the common hardon days. I'm not saying what you like is bad. I haven't heard some of it and I'd probably like a lot of it but it isn't anything that other people havn't done and weren't doing before or concurrently with JBL.
I suggest you try listening to some of it if you get a chance.


When the D130 came out it was without peer. When the 175 DLH was introduced to Hi Fi what compared to it. There is nothing that JBL makes today or has introduced in at least 20 years that leads the industry like these did when they were introduced.
Well, ya, but it ain't for lack of tryin'. Lots of companies have worked real hard over the last fifty years to gnaw away at the market with imitation products. That's why the Lansing heritage has been worth commemorating. But it's also made it difficult to keep creating new and better stuff and sell it at the necessary prices.


Hell everybody has probably turned the page by now.
Hell, no! I always like a good-natured rant.

David

[Thom]

I tried to copy and past what they have to say about the D130 elswhere on this site but I was unable to. It pretty much said the D130 was JBL. Maybe before they were Apple. Probably a bad analogy. But you liked jbl or you didn't JBL was the reason other companys were putting domes on their speakers. Very few other speakers were made any thing like a JBL (D130) There is probably something like it today. If you go see The Other Ones or Phil and friends what will you see? Yes, there will be a lot of base speakers, and there will be stuff on top. And today maybe it really isn't JBL (never was all JBL, one time at Keizar I saw more t35's than I even knew EV made)but the manie material will come through a D130 or a clone. Even the base guitar will probably be designed on a D130, even if it's an eigteen. AnLE15a is a good speaker better than most I know. It doesn't snap. We used to show a customer another speakers magnet and hoh it grabbed stuff and show them how a JBL wouldn't even atract anayhing because all of the magntissim was focused on the voice coil.Iguess that was crap.

[speakerdave]

We used to show a customer another speakers magnet and hoh it grabbed stuff and show them how a JBL wouldn't even atract anayhing because all of the magntissim was focused on the voice coil.Iguess that was crap.
Not at all. It was part of the explanation for JBL performance, that the flux density in the gap was greater than some. Also, if you look at the specification sheet for the D123 from the fifties you will see that JBL recognized that their speaker drivers could be used close to a CRT TV--way ahead of their time. That in fact was what got me back into JBL about five years ago. Now, of course, CRT TV and computer screens are disappearing fast, and so the lack of stray magnetic field around the classic Alnico JBL drivers has become less important.

David

[toddalin]

Not at all. It was part of the explanation for JBL performance, that the flux density in the gap was greater than some. Also, if you look at the specification sheet for the D123 from the fifties you will see that JBL recognized that their speaker drivers could be used close to a CRT TV--way ahead of their time. That in fact was what got me back into JBL about five years ago. Now, of course, CRT TV and computer screens are disappearing fast, and so the lack of stray magnetic field around the classic Alnico JBL drivers has become less important.

David

Note how low the speakers are mounted in the cabinet. My 45" Mitsubishi used to sit on top and even at this distance, there was some color aberation.

One 130A served as the center channel and the other was a "subwoofer" that required massive eq and still never "subbed." (The cabinet is chambered.) I supplemented it with a Sunfire Signiture True sub.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/speaker4.jpg


When I redid the L200 cabinets replacing the 130As with "2235s" (actually 2205Cs reconed as 2235s), I also redid this cabinet. The center got the 2235 and the sub got a W15GTI. Now with a Crown PSA-2xh run in bridged mode, the W15GTI provides plenty of sub energy, and tests have confirmed that it plays lower with more authority than the 2235.

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/center-2235-w15gti.jpg