What I saw at CEDIA [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Mr. Widget

09-20-2006, 12:54 AM

I have been meaning to post a mini report about what I saw at CEDIA Expo.

First off, the JBL booth... they had a sound room with a Synthesis theater installed. I didn't check it out as I have heard a few Synthesis systems and didn't have extra time to revisit systems... I was at the show to see and hear new stuff. They did have a single Project Array 800 speaker sitting there among several Synthesis products. I was surprised at how tiny it was. It was cute, but hard to take seriously due to scale. It had a beautiful finish and looked really well made. I wish they had the entire line. They were also showing the Performance Series... it was the first time I saw them in person... I had been told on this forum that in person they looked better than they do in photos... maybe. Just not my cup of tea I guess. I didn't really see anything else there that caught my eye. There was a ton of iPod and other entry level bits with the JBL logo on them.

The Revels powered by the Mark Levinson gear was the best sounding system that I heard at the show.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=125488&highlight=revel#post125488

Almost as good and significantly less costly, were the Pioneer S-1 EX speakers. I was fortunate to get a private two channel demo of them. They were set up as a 5.1 HT system, but the designer was there and like me prefers to do critical listening in the 2 channel mode. After the demo guys had run a very nice HT demo including Blu-Ray, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD, Andrew gave us a private demo and turned off the sub, switched the speakers into bi-amp mode and played some 2 channel music. The sound was very good despite being powered by a Pioneer receiver. (He normally shows his other designs with Pass Labs electronics.) The imaging was incredible, the voicing was quite neutral, they were very dynamic for a relatively small system, and were capable of real music SPLs. They did have a slightly pronounced but well controlled and solid bottom end, but then so do his other designs that I have heard.

In the new and notable column there was Audyssey.

http://www.audyssey.com/soundequalizer.html

This line level device is an automatic room correction device. It really worked too. The outboard Audyssey device costs $2500 and a slightly stripped down version is available in the TOTL Denon AV receivers and will be included in others soon. Essentially the device corrects for phase and time issues along with problems in the frequency domain... yeah we have heard all of that before... well this is the first unit I have heard that actually worked, even including the DEQX room correction. The Audyssey device uses some familiar technologies, but it implements them in a unique way. Instead of averaging a number of discrete measurements it uses unique algorithms and fuzzy logic. The result was that when the unit was turned on the sense of space became truly 3D, the bass tightened up, and the overall sound was clearer and more enveloping.

I saw piles of speakers, amps, controllers, and stuff... lots of stuff... the most remarkable thing I saw, heard and felt, was the Eminent Technology Model 17 Rotary subwoofer. The damn thing looks like a fancy room fan. It is essentially a fan that has a woofer voice coil on it and as the coil moves back and forth it changes the pitch of the blades... the result is bass from around 1 Hz up to 30Hz... it has a sensitivity of 94 db/watt at 10Hz. When they demonstrated the subwoofer with a sinewave generator, the entire room was excited numerous times... the drop ceiling was bouncing up and down a couple of inches, the DLP projector that was ceiling mounted was swaying back and forth... the closed door to the room vibrated violently on it's hinges... we heard/felt 4Hz like you've never experienced it!

They demonstrated it as a sub for a HT... it didn't work due to software limitations.... since the sound engineers are not using subs that delve into these depths they tend to jack up the subsonics to a level that makes "normal" high quality subs really thump... with this model the blast of a shotgun, or the boom of a bomb blast was unrealistically portrayed with far too much VLF information... it was impressive, but nowhere near realistic sounding. I think that if the recordings were accurate, this device would really be able to recreate the subsonic information that is indeed all around us. If this device had been around for the movie, Earthquake... people would have really panicked! Those giant Cerwin Vega horns couldn't do a tenth of what this little guy can... really amazing.

http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm

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Chas

09-20-2006, 05:34 AM

Thanks for the info Widget. What a coincidence, I was just looking at an ad in Stereophile this morning and scratching my head over Mr. Thigpen's latest creation.

JBLnsince1959

09-20-2006, 08:54 AM

Thanks Widget:applaud:

Valentin

09-20-2006, 03:35 PM

So Audissey EQ in your opinion out performs DEQX for av raged listing space
isn't the DEQX more powerful but more difficult to set up

i ask because you have a lot of experience with DEQX

Mr. Widget

09-20-2006, 03:47 PM

The Deqx PDC is a crossover, a speaker calibrator, an equalizer, a DAC, a preamp (if you purchase that option), a loudspeaker measurement tool, and a room correction device. The Audyssey is only a room correction device. Comparing only the two units as room correction devices, the Audyssey is absolutely superior... I suppose it is possible that with the appropriate software changes, that the DEQX could possibly match the performance of the Audyssey but currently it cannot in my opinion.

That said, I cannot think of any device that does all of the other features that are offered in the Deqx PDC... that come remotely close to it's performance. If you want the ultimate in room correction you should use the two units together.

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scott fitlin

09-20-2006, 04:17 PM

Mr. Widget

09-20-2006, 04:31 PM

It's not for you Scotty...

I really don't know how transparent it might be. It is meant to be part of a HT setup so the only source they played was a DSP based 7.1 movie mix.

Also the current model is not balanced though they intend to come out with a balanced version for professional cinema use.

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scott fitlin

09-20-2006, 04:36 PM

The reason I asked, is because I see many units beginng to emerge such as this. IF they could finally come out with DSP that doesnt sound digital, there are some really useful fetures in items like this.

FWIW, I run my system unbalanced, not balanced! I have done it both ways, and I`m convinced unbal sounds better.

Thank you for your answer.

Mr. Widget

09-20-2006, 04:46 PM

The Deqx PDC is very open and transparent... Bo has heard my system and compared it favorably to his all analog system and Ken Pachkowsky has recently sold his tube and solid state all analog preamps and replaced them with the Deqx PDC. I am very picky and have been quite against the digital wave for years... For two-channel music I still haven't heard any digital surround receiver at any price that I thought really worked.

It is possible that the Audyssey is fine, but until I get a chance to really road test one, I would assume that it is excellent for surround sound, but possibly not quite there for the ultra picky listening to two-channel.

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Thom

09-20-2006, 04:47 PM

sub woofer /fan

I understand that there is a world of difference between saying "oh I get it " and building one, but it looks like the trick piece is the variable pitch hub. If someome has something like that that runs on maybe a 4-20 or something it shouldnt be to hard to approxamate. whether you could smooth it out enough to want it in your living room I'm not sure but wow I gotta check that out. I'd sure like to hear it. I'm having trouble with multiple frequencys and levels simotainiously which it must do. Sure would like to ckeck it out. Trouble is they smell diy they probably see how far you can bounce.

Mr. Widget

09-20-2006, 04:56 PM

I'm having trouble with multiple frequencys and levels simotainiously which it must do. What do you mean? From an end user standpoint it operates like a conventional woofer.

Operationally, there is a voicecoil and magnet that are concentric with the motor shaft. The fan operates at a steady frequency (rpm) and as the voice coil is fed a signal the voicecoil moves back and forth just as a woofer does. Through connecting rods and pivots as the coil moves back and forth, the pitch of the blades changes back and forth. If the coil is moving at 10Hz, the blade pitch changes at ten cycles per second. They have obviously adjusted the blade size and shape and the amount of blade pitch change to achieve a flat frequency response.

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Thom

09-20-2006, 05:01 PM

Thanks

If I just hadn't thrown away those 14inch disc drives

Ken Pachkowsky

09-20-2006, 08:21 PM

I`m convinced unbal sounds better.

Thank you for your answer.

Your not the first person that I have heard say that. Bruce and Dee Robb who own one of the top studio's in LA (Cherokee Studio's) try to use single ended gear wherever possible. The reason "It sounds better". Came as a surprise to me.

I have never sat down and tried to form an opinion...but it's an interesting statement.

Ken

Ken Pachkowsky

09-20-2006, 08:27 PM

The Deqx PDC is very open and transparent... Bo has heard my system and compared it favorably to his all analog system and Ken Pachkowsky has recently sold his tube and solid state all analog preamps and replaced them with the Deqx PDC.
Widget

Yes, that is true and I must say it made a difference to get all those separates out of the signal path. I managed to pick up 3 Deqx PDC's and am using 2 of them.

Ken

Maron Horonzakz

09-21-2006, 07:08 AM

I thought room correction was done with a saw and hammer? Paul Klipsch told me , " no wiggle tube electronics can do that";)

scott fitlin

09-21-2006, 09:08 AM

Your not the first person that I have heard say that. Bruce and Dee Robb who own one of the top studio's in LA (Cherokee Studio's) try to use single ended gear wherever possible. The reason "It sounds better". Came as a surprise to me.

I have never sat down and tried to form an opinion...but it's an interesting statement.

KenWhat "is" the reason unbalanced sounds better? I have heard many things on the subject, including what Nelson Pass has to say about it on the First Watt website.

In my case, I think its mostly a situation where the single ended circuit has less components in the signal path, and simple circuits tend to sound better. The " Less is More " analogy.

Mr. Widget

09-21-2006, 09:49 AM

I thought room correction was done with a saw and hammer? Paul Klipsch told me , " no wiggle tube electronics can do that";)That's an excellent first step... but it won't correct for phase and time anomalies. Paul's speakers were all pretty terrible from that perspective. (JBLs too) If you have a surround system utilizing vintage or Heritage Klipsches (or classic JBLs).... the little Audyssey box will really focus the room.

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edgewound

09-21-2006, 10:06 AM

I thought room correction was done with a saw and hammer? Paul Klipsch told me , " no wiggle tube electronics can do that";)

Oh c'mon Maron...you should know by now that anything can be fixed electronically.

Just listen to new recordings from young and hip "artists". Lots of fixing going on....too bad it doesn't work, though.;) :p

Mr. Widget

09-21-2006, 10:11 AM

Lots of fixing going on....too bad it doesn't work, though.;) :pExactly my point! That is why I mentioned this device... it is the first gadget that makes incredible claims and actually works. Of course like PWK, they tell you to try to fix the room first too... and don't put the speakers in stupid places, but if you follow the rules, add this device, and mix with water....:blah:

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Maron Horonzakz

09-21-2006, 02:54 PM

I remember in Germany, We went to a show in a brew Hall . This Beautiful gal was really intertaining the troops. She was drop dead georges, Great legs, great ass, man i really fell in love with her...At the end of the show ,,,She pulled off the wig....It was a guy!!!! I went outside & barfed my guts out !!! And you tell me this thing is going to be the cure all for my speakers??? Well Ill try it, But !!!!!

edgewound

09-21-2006, 03:25 PM

Mr. Widget

09-21-2006, 03:26 PM

Nice anecdote...:screwy:

And you tell me this thing is going to be the cure all for my speakers??? Well Ill try it, But !!!!!Hell no, that device isn't magic. It won't cure all of your speaker's ills... but it will make them sound better if you use them in a surround system.

They did tell us, that some people are surprised by the changes at first and don't necessarily prefer it... here is an anecdote for you. I had a couple of guys come over and listen to my 2-channel music only system... they were put off by the stage depth and lack of exaggerated bass. They were used to the typical JBL up front sound with bass bump... I try to achieve a more accurate, neutral sound with better imaging.

What the device will do is smooth out the frequency response and it will correct the time and phase issues of your speakers. In the demo using small mini-monitors in a smallish room... the 7.1 image moved from being in front of us and being rather diffuse to enveloping us and being specific. You may not prefer it... but most people will. It will also bring your system much close to what the sound engineers were trying to create. If you haven't clicked on the link... this device is from Tomlinson Holman (the TH of THX) and a team of researchers at USC.

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scott fitlin

09-21-2006, 03:32 PM

Thats very interesting, what you say Widget!

Titanium Dome

09-21-2006, 04:43 PM

(snip) they were put off by the stage depth and lack of exaggerated bass. (snip)

Widget

That is certainly at the crux of the matter for many. "Where's the (exaggerated) bass?"

I go to 14-16 concerts a year, ranging from small ensemble jazz, to swing orchestra, to symphony, to rock'n'roll. The amazing thing is how subtle the bass is in most of those genres; in fact, when it's over-emphasized, it's annoying and intrusive.

I avoid excessive radio listening partly due to the audio mischief perpetrated by top 40 and hard rock stations with the bass boost, and the intentional clipping, and high averaging volume tricks. I think many listeners adjust to this abnormal sound and try to recreate it at home with ball busting bass and high SPLs to excite their tympanic membranes ( and libidos).

One thing no EQ device can change is bad taste.