Should Field Coil Come Back?

[Ducatista47]

I was wasting everyone's time again posting about efficiency in speaker design and amp power vs quality, in another thread.

I got to thinking, now that anything that improves sound is fair game, at least to a small dedicated segment of audio fans (that includes us, I think), is a rethinking of field coil speakers desirable? For all I know they might have desirable properties. I'm sure any undesirable tendencies could be engineered out. Look what JBL has done with ferrite, which Greg Timbers has labeled a "lousy," I think it was, material to make speaker magnets from.

What would be the advantages of field coil, if any, especially in an era of expensive Alnico?

Clark in Peoria

[scott fitlin]

Field coild drivers are available, and here in the U.S. www.supravox.com (http://www.supravox.com).

There are some that say nothing sounds better than field coils, Steve Schell, the forums resident expert on really old audio, he can tell you about their sound.

They look to be interesting, but, they are very expensive too. I would imagine that making drivers that need their own DC power supply doesnt help keep costs down.

I have always wanted to hear some.

[Thom]

I'm sure if you've got that room temperature surperconductor thing worked out it's absolutly the way to go! but other wise it's more heat to dissapate, one (at least) more power supply and one more way to introduce hum into the system. JBL use to brag on being the only on to use a 4 inch voice coil (before the first altec with a 4 inch) and say they would never use ceramic. Electrovoice use to say a lessor competitor of theirs (whom I never heard identified) used 4 inch voice coils because they lacked the sophisticated equipment needed to make the close tolerance adaptors needed to adapt the redily available 4 inch alnico of the day to work with the more desirable smaller voice coil diameters (I think they used 2 1/2 on their 30 inch, which went into the Patrician that I've heard can still be had in japan) Do you think any of them ever told the truth?

[Ducatista47]

Field coild drivers are available, and here in the U.S. www.supravox.com (http://www.supravox.com).

Scotty, thanks for that link. The drivers tab has a very interesting history section. I notice their drivers cost the same in Alnico or field coil. The motors seem to be quite large!

I did spot one advantage of field coil, 101 dB 1w/1m from a woofer!

For a moment I thought Mrs. Dorliac was Francoise Dorleac, Catherine (Dorleac) Deneuve's sister. She also died in an accident, but at age 25 in 1967. I remember it well.

I'll keep reading, Clark

[Ducatista47]

Do you think any of them ever told the truth?

Not completely, I suspect.

Well, I can't think of any reason why using smaller voice coils would be a superior method. Anybody can jump in here now...please...

Clark

[scott fitlin]

You are welcome, I always look at Suparavox from time to time. They tell me they are supposed to sound very good.

I thought about taking an empty pair of A7 cabinets I have, and loading them with the supravox field coil 15. What stopped me is that the A7,s need a bigger room than my living room, IMHO.

I spoke to them here in the States, and I asked for the Alnico versions, and they told me, NO, what you really want is the field coils! Apparently, and this is where it gets very interesting, you can vary the PS output voltage, and this changes the woofers parameters, allowing you to really fine tune the speaker to your taste, in a way you cannot do with any conventional driver. I found it interesting, and possibly I will get back to actually doing it at some point. I have asked Steve Schell about FC speaker sound, and he tells me its the most lucid and smooth, and relaxed, realistic sounding speaker you could want to hear. I know IF I get out his way, I want to visit him and hear what he has.

From an audio buffs point of veiw, I have never heard FC,s and really want to simply because its something I never even knew about till fairly recently and is so scarce.

[Thom]

The only thing that could make them any different than pm would be that you could control mag strength and therefor efficiency so you could pay more for them because you thought you could correct what the engineer didn't understand. I know, a Linn was supposed to sound best if you put it on a chessboard supported by four upside down watertumblers. I should think it should be cheaper, machines wind coils (I koow single crystle, oxygen free) and you wouldn't have to go through the magnetizing process and the hardening process but hey some people preach on TV some people sell audio. selling audio must be less harmfull. You know you could go moving magnet while your at it. I'm not serious but someone might me.With field coils today I can just envision the arguments about which polarit sounds best. Perhaps negative polarity through the early moon. And the arguments over regulation whether you should use shunt or series regulation. Whether discrete diodes or a one piece bridge. And what caps should you use to filter your supply or should it only be powered from batteries. I see it now! The state of the art would be a little mg set the motor would run from a vfd and it would either be a dc generator or a polyphase set-up
there would definetly be two schools of thought about that. I've got to go befor I offend somone it's not my intention

[Ducatista47]

Thom, that is one hilarious take on clueless audiophiles. You might look down at the quote in my digital signature to see how much I appreciate it.

Obviously field coils in the wrong hands could complicate audio beyond reason, but I am suffering from increasing interest now. I started this question with idle curiosity uppermost in my mind, but Scotty's revelations have increased my curiosity manyfold. In the right hands, they sound like a diy dream come true. Tweaking the transducer/cabinet combo at the turn of a knob, good lord.

Most of all, the promise of even sweeter sound than otherwise possible would make the development of modern field coil drivers a desirable path of inquiry. Perhaps compression drivers might benefit as much or more. Did Lansing or Altec ever build field coil horn drivers? I'm not in a financial position to pursue this now, but I am excited that other more able explorers might take this forward.

I confess that my initial mention of cost was a red herring. I always imagined cost being greater, but with $3500 compression drivers upon us all things are possible.

Clark

[moldyoldy]

I'm sure that yesterday's field coil drivers would benefit from today's power supplies. Back when EMs ruled, consumer gear had the field winding integral to the same power transformer that ran the rest of the system, while pro use dictated multiple remote field supplies. The integrals' field supply interacted with the amplifier directly (for both good and bad), while the remotes acted more like a PM, and saved stringing 200-400 volt field wiring to all the speakers.

My only personal experience with EMs has just involved a couple of 12"s, a Jensen and a Rola that I'm playing with in a couple of DIY MI amps. Both amps are still works in progress, though I played them quite a bit before I ripped into them. For guitar and organ, they're clear and sweet, until you pour on the gain, then the HV sags, dragging the field down with it, yielding a compressed effect you won't get with any digital rig. The characteristics I find worthy of pursuing for MI apps would be undesireable for stereo listening though, and if it wasn't for that, the heat alone would be enough to turn me off.

[Thom]

Seems to me that if one had a machine shop, nothing major, a little skill, doing it wrong a few times will usually give you that, and here comes the tough one, a lot of time. You could play with it. Problem is their always seems to be some magic involved. You could probably water cool. If you started out with one of those JBL's, with the magnets that are apart, that are on EBAY right now, it might even be easier. I'v got a (very old ) JBL 15 where the magnet assy obviously had been slated to be a 375 before they snatched it for a 15 so with some work (less than starting from scratch) one could probably go the other way. There is so much difference in drivers, that if field coils were common, there would be pm's that people swore were better than any field coils, and field coils that people swore were better than any pm. If you actually built your own (I think I'd leave the armature and as much else as I could to off the shelf parts) and it sounded good you'd have some braggin rights.

[Tom Brennan]

A pal has a pair of those Supravox field-coil drivers, he's used them both in Oris horns and as direct radiators on large open baffles.

They sound very good but nothing to get rid of your Altecs or JBLs for. One wonders if their goodness is due to the field-coils or some other aspects of their design.

Now the fella is running a mono rig with a B&C woofer and a JBL 2435 on some big old anonymous prosound radial horn. Sounds better than the Supravoxes. My opinion of course.

[Thom]

some of the most interesting systems just sort of died when stereo came about. The poor guys just didn't have another basement or spare room, or basement + spare room +add on to build another horn into or even infinite baffle. Plus can you imagine you've spent your life putting this system together and now all at once someone is telling you you need another one on the other side?

[Steve Schell]

I have been addicted to field coil speakers for about a decade now and have accumulated a house full of them. I have also founded a company with a friend to manufacture field coil compression drivers and horn systems, so my comments here are not impartial in any way.

Field coil drivers tend to have a sort of family sound that one encounters over and over. The sound is very dynamic and compelling, yet relaxed and relaxing to listen to at the same time. It is the basic type of sound that sends us all in search of high efficiency speakers to begin with, but is realized most fully with field coil drivers in my experience. I think that this reflects a more accurate job on the part of the speaker of tracing the delicate audio signal. The most popular theory to explain this is that the magnetic flux in the voice coil gap is less modulated by voice coil currents and is therefore more stable, allowing the movements of the voice coil to more perfectly mirror the input signal. A permanent magnet driver stores a finite amount of energy in its magnetic circuit from the moment it was originally charged. A field coil is usually connected to a low impedance DC power supply however, and does not share this limitation. To my knowledge no one has yet conducted a scientific study to determine whether field coil drivers really do have greater stability of gap flux; I hope to investigate this one of these days.

Many vintage field coil drivers have been in great demand for decades now and sell for high prices due both to their scarcity and fine sound. There are a few companies currently (sorry, pun unavoidable) producing field coil drivers, and the trend is on the rise. I have also corresponded with numerous hobbyists who have taken on the challenge of converting permanent magnet drivers to field coil operation. This is quite feasable for Altec and JBL compression drivers, as their ancestors were field coil units.

Clark, the Altec small format driver began life in 1937 as the Lansing 801, and the large format Altec began as the Lansing 284 in 1934 or 1935. This is covered in the history section of this site- check out the profiles of the Lansing Iconic and the Shearer Horn System. Disassembling and comparing, say, a 1940 Lansing 801 and a 1970 Altec 802 shows many more similarities than differences. Also, the JBL D-175 owes its origins to the Lansing 801, and the JBL 375 was a permanent magnet adaptation of the Western Electric 594A of the late 1930s.

Tom, I have heard the Supravox drivers a couple of times. They do the usual field coil thang very well, but no driver can transcend its basic type just because it uses a field coil. A small f.c. direct radiator may sound smooth and punchy, but it will still sound like a small direct radiator. When we delve into large multi way horn systems using field coil compression drivers throughout, then things really get interesting.

It is true that the current delivered to the field coil can be varied within limits and the speaker's characteristics tuned to an extent. I have heard that this can be effective in a guitar amp. In my approach to hi fi speaker design the desired response is achieved primarily through horn design, not enclosure tuning. For horn applications the strongest motor possible provides the highest efficiency and widest bandwidth. Saturating the pole tips to 21 kilogauss, or to 24 kilogauss if one springs for permandur pole tips, is a Good Thing.

[Ducatista47]

Steve, thank you so much. I feel like I did when Greg Timbers posted on the 4345 thread, and these experiences have - ahem - more similarities than differences.

Would you care to either post some links to your current product development (I remember seeing some spectacular images previously either here or in a link) or treat us to some presentation here of what you are up to? I had a feeling that compression drivers would benefit from this technology, but in my case it was an educated hunch.

Thank you again for posting here,

Clark

[Steve Schell]

Clark, thank you for the very kind words.

I'm limping a bit at the moment as my computer is away for repair and I've pressed our business laptop into service. Most of my images are inaccessible at the moment.

I blabbed on and on about our Cogent drivers in a previous thread. There are also some pictures and a link to an old article I wrote here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9127&page=2&highlight=cogent

Since then we have begun production and sales of our drivers. I have been building our web site and we plan to launch it soon. We have accepted Ron Welborne's invitation to share his room at the upcoming Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in October, so we will have a Cogent system playing there. I highly recommend this show for its size, quality, and interesting mix of both high end and DIY audio.

http://www.audiofest.net/

[louped garouv]

they are some very very attractive drivers Steve....

industrial art at its finest....

[Steve Schell]

Thanks for the kind words, louped garouv. There are plenty of pictures of the innards of our drivers at the link below. The folks from Audio Federation, a hi fi store in Boulder CO, made a trip to my house during the weekend of the recent Stereophile and VTV shows in L.A. These pictures show our prototype system with warts and all, hunks of tape, improvised connectors, etc. The drivers in the pictures are now apart for fitting of the production connectors, anodizing of the phasing plugs, etc. No tunes for me at the moment!

http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2006/Cogent/500/index.htm#listening

[Ducatista47]

Well, right here on this board, an example of an RCA driver with the three tube field energizer ("Field Supply Unit!"), crossover and horn all present. Made in USA. ;) Sweet...
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12761

Clark

[Thom]

I'm probably a heretic but I'd make those 5U4's for looks only in an instant unless their filiments are needed for something. They have discovered silicon since those were made.

[Ducatista47]

I'm probably a heretic but I'd make those 5U4's for looks only in an instant unless their filiments are needed for something. They have discovered silicon since those were made.
I'm medium-core, not hard-core into tubes. I use tubes for amplification but not rectification. (Some of my friends completely prefer tube rectification.) I also love big solid state on the low end. But ain't no silicon goin' into my mids or highs, not for my horns, no way!

Clark in Peoria

[Steve Schell]

Hard core tubeheads often prefer the smooth sound of tube rectification, and this sometimes extends to the use of ancient and exotic mercury vapor rectifiers for all-out designs. Some guys also build field supplies for their field coil driver systems that incorporate the tungar rectifier tubes that were used in the 1930s theatre systems. This all seems quaint and anachronistic to the uninitiated, but I have heard systems that possess almost unbelievable resolving power, and the builders insist that the elaborate rectification is an essential key to this level of performance.

[scott fitlin]

I dont doubt what you say, Steve.

Up until very recently, I never felt the components in the power supply had much effect on tone. Power is power, you got the right voltages or you dont, right? Wrong! Some DIY,ers and manufacturers claim type and quality of PS components, such as rectifiers, capacitors, regulators have a profound effect on the sound of any audio device. I didnt use to think so!

Boy, was I wrong! I tried 2 preamp/mixer units, one with stock components, the other with upgraded PS components, what a difference you really do hear. PS components are part of the sound too!

Even PS filtering capacitors have a larger-than-you think effect on a units sound.

If I can hear it with a SS mixer/preamp, I have no doubt you can hear the difference between tube rectification, and SS rectification.

[Steve Schell]

Hi Scott,

The theory I've heard repeatedly is that an amp is essentially a modulated power supply, and that everything in the power supply directly affects the results. I think the deal with the mercury vapor rectifiers is that they offer high current capability and have much lower series resistance than other tube rectifiers, which makes for great micro and macro dynamics. The only thing I know for sure is that they look really cool, and that most of the amps I've heard that use them sound really good. Large, low DCR chokes and transformers and big ol' hairy tramsmitting triodes in the output stage are often part of the amp recipe as well.

[Thom]

"The smooth sound of tube rectificatication" some people really took L Ron Hubbard to heart when he said the way to make money was to start a religeon. You don't want to hear any of the rectification at all. Thats what the filter is all about. Oops I forgot don't discuss religeon.

[scott fitlin]

Hi Scott,

The theory I've heard repeatedly is that an amp is essentially a modulated power supply, and that everything in the power supply directly affects the results. I think the deal with the mercury vapor rectifiers is that they offer high current capability and have much lower series resistance than other tube rectifiers, which makes for great micro and macro dynamics. The only thing I know for sure is that they look really cool, and that most of the amps I've heard that use them sound really good. Large, low DCR chokes and transformers and big ol' hairy tramsmitting triodes in the output stage are often part of the amp recipe as well.Explained this way, it DOES make sense!

I KNOW for sure, that if I take one unit, and change the PS filter caps, I hear a major diffrence in the sound of that unit.upgrade the diodes to nice, high speed, soft recovery types, you will hear a diffrence.

Figuring out a recipe of what brand/type. etc, thats the time consuming part.

Then, in the Stereophile issue last month, they reveiwed the MB Quart monoblocks, the designer had some interesting things to say about PS components and why they were chosen. I dont recall everything said, Ill find the mag, and post the link, but, it was interesting reading for sure! Definitely speaks on PS, affecting sound BIG TIME!

[Hoerninger]

... You don't want to hear any of the rectification at all. Thats what the filter is all about. Oops I forgot don't discuss religeon.
You won't hear any difference as long the components behave in an ideal (frequency and dynamic independent) manner. But that is not given.
Admittedly I have never made any investigations in this respect - and I know what voodoo is.


... The theory I've heard repeatedly is that an amp is essentially a modulated power supply, and that everything in the power supply directly affects the results.
It would be very interesting if anybody has ever made a simulation of a whole circuit consisting of both PS and amp with SPICE. This Programm is suitable for this, for example you can investigate in tolerances, distortion and frequency dependencies.
Once I have seen a simulation of a whole discrete amp with remarkable results in comparison to the real amp, but I have no experience.
____________
Peter

PS: A class A amplifier always takes the same sum of current, so there is less depency on PS.

[scott fitlin]

I made a mistake in my last post, I meant to say MBL monoblock amplifiers.

[Thom]

I'm pretty down to earth and a lot of things I suspect But cant say for sure. Power supplies especially brut force power supplies I believe I can speak with some authority on. Before we start, I really don't remember the whole "emperor
has no cloths fable. What happened to the little boy. They didn't kill him did they? A rectifier allows current to flow one direction only. A very common filter that works very well is called a pi filter basically you charge one cap and from that cap you charge a second cap through an inductor your ripple level will be very low at this point and if you simply regulate your voltage below the ripple you should be ripple free but if you are really anal you could do it again. Obviously you have to start with high enough voltage in the first place. If you're using tube rectifiers, unless you are using cold cathode ones the filament will likely be ac powered and probably put additional noise on the line. You won't have any trouble getting rid of it but there is no way that the tube will be quieter. I guess according to some peoples theory battery power would be best. I can hear the argument now as to which charging sounds best, hydro, solar, wind. I'm wandering if this will be taken as the joke it's supposed to be or if it is already taking place. What's the first thing you do to be seen as credible in these circles, keep a thesaurus next to the john? I'm really fascinated by the expensive power cord you can buy. If anything but the absolutely worst cord you could have(very light gage, encounters with the pet rabbit ect) any effect on what you hear then the power supply is so bad ,what could the rest of the device be like?

[Ducatista47]

Thom, I frequently hear a very sweet amp using 5U4GB's. The designer is the Tube Man I have the most respect for, and he could have used whatever he wanted. I'm thinking filament heated rectifiers must have all the right qualities for the job, or he would have used heated cathode tubes instead. If you are curious I could ask him about it. I'm pretty sure he would not use the glass just to up the tube count.

Mind you, I use a smaller amp of his and its ss rectification doesn't keep it from being the best sounding piece I have ever been exposed to. I guess there is more than one way to make great DC! :)

I guess I would be a real stinker if I opined that transformer quality is what really makes or breaks audio amplification. :D (Actually I think circuit design is the most important element; that would include the parameters of the transformers.)

Clark in Peoria

[Ducatista47]

Large, low DCR chokes and transformers and big ol' hairy tramsmitting triodes in the output stage are often part of the amp recipe as well.
Any theories why, Steve? I would have thought transmitting types would be a wildly inappropriate choice in receiving tube applications. They were/are designed for something else entirely; I haven't compared the characteristic curves, but being built like a tank can't be as important as being the right tool for the job, I would think. Then again, my gut instinct leans toward the large interelectrode distances not even working at receiving tube voltages, so I must be missing something.

A plate being able to deal with more heat than an electric clothes dryer is nice in theory, but useful? And thoriated tungsten cathodes? Beats me!

Clark

[Ducatista47]

.
Then, in the Stereophile issue last month, they reveiwed the MBL Quart monoblocks, the designer had some interesting things to say about PS components and why they were chosen. I dont recall everything said, Ill find the mag, and post the link, but, it was interesting reading for sure! Definitely speaks on PS, affecting sound BIG TIME!
This page? The middle of the "Designed from scratch" section.
http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/906mbl/index.html

Gosh, I'd feel robbed if my amp's frequency response cut off at only 200khz in one of its operating modes! ;) Actually, at $26,600 a pair, I just might. :banghead:

Clark in Peoria

[scott fitlin]

Thats the amp. They make mention of choosing PS caps very carefully, and that the electrolytics they used have only 1% of the distortion commonly found in most electroltyics. Speed of the caps charging and discharging, rectifiers, and everything play a role in sonic signature of equipment.

I believe it, I tried different, and higher quality PS caps in a mixer/preamp, the difference in sound was alot.

[Steve Schell]

Thom, I appreciate your skepticism when it comes to power supply design, I really do. There is so much voodoo and b.s. in high end audio that it generally requires a bulldozer rather than a shovel to manage it. Still, there are alternative theories, techniques, parts and circuit selections that have proven their validity to me by the only method I feel I can trust to sift through everything- listening. I cannot really explain technically why directly heated triodes, mercury vapor rectifiers, simple non feedback circuits etc. tend to sound better to me when listening carefully, but they do.

So what does one do when one's observations are in conflict with conventional theory, dismiss one's own findings in favor of the theory? I cannot bring myself to do that. Julian Hirsch would have had us believe that all amplifiers sound the same, but not many people really believe that anymore. Right here on LH the folks frequently discuss the sound of various higher power transistor amps and their usefulness for driving their JBLs.

The choice to trust and follow one's own perceptions carries a certain burden unless one keeps their yap shut about it. I'm not sure what happened to the little boy, but messengers do get killed on occasion!

Clark, those large transmitting tubes with their white hot filaments do look grossly inappropriate for the job at hand, but I have heard some of the most sweet, detailed, tactile, believable sound from them. I'm no theorist, but I have read many times that the simple triode is the most intrinsically linear amplifying device known to man. So far I have not seen any transistor guys rushing in to argue the point. Apparently, for whatever reason, the directly heated tubes have the lowest measured distortion of the breed, and this extends further to the very high current filament jobs.
I have found with receiving tubes that the high current, lower mu DHTs tend to sound more clear and lively. The 26 was the first voltage amplifier designed to run either AC or DC on the filament, and with its high current filament it does sound better to me than either the earlier starved filament battery set voltage ampflifiers or the later indirectly heated cathode tubes. Why exactly? I dunno. There does seem to be a correlation between high filament current and dynamic sound, but I'm not the one to explain why.

Lynn Olson has done quite a bit of investigation into the discrepancies between conventional theory and the perceived superiority of some of the early audio devices and circuits. For those interested I'd suggest wading through the articles in the link below. His conjecture is based on much study and measurement, not just the unsupportable "I like it" observations of guys like me.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/index.html

[Ducatista47]

So what does one do when one's observations are in conflict with conventional theory, dismiss one's own findings in favor of the theory? I cannot bring myself to do that. Julian Hirsch would have had us believe that all amplifiers sound the same, but not many people really believe that anymore. Right here on LH the folks frequently discuss the sound of various higher power transistor amps and their usefulness for driving their JBLs.

Right on! Meter men drive me nuts when they use measurements as the final arbiter. That is what ears attached to brains with functioning BS detectors are for. Measuring is OK to guide the design process. Its verification function is limited, to say the least.



I'm no theorist, but I have read many times that the simple triode is the most intrinsically linear amplifying device known to man.
There is another school of thought on that. Alan Kimmel has proved to my ears that triodes are the best voltage amplifiers and that pentodes (and MOS-FET's, he adds) are better current amps. I have already worn out my welcome with this link, but I'll give it again here and duck.
http://www7.taosnet.com/f10/mustage.html:duck:


Apparently, for whatever reason, the directly heated tubes have the lowest measured distortion of the breed, and this extends further to the very high current filament jobs.

I didn't know that. Peorius Ignoramus, I guess.


Lynn Olson has done quite a bit of investigation into the discrepancies between conventional theory and the perceived superiority of some of the early audio devices and circuits. For those interested I'd suggest wading through the articles in the link below. His conjecture is based on much study and measurement, not just the unsupportable "I like it" observations of guys like me.

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/index.html
I'll follow the link. The topic looks fascinating. Thanks!

Clark

[Steve Schell]

Clark, maybe part of the reason those big transmitting tubes sound good is that they are being run at a tiny fraction of their capabilities for hi fi, like the high efficiency speakers most of us like. They have such long, relatively straight plate curves that they can be set up with low distortion loadlines at many different voltages. I heard two different pairs of single ended 750TL amps at RMAF last weekend, and they both sounded wonderful. Though the 750TL is rated at 10,000 maximum plate volts, these amps had only about 550 and 1,200 volts on the plate.

[scott fitlin]

Indeed, I remember reading the 70,s issues of Stereo reveiw, and High Fidelity magazine and they always use to say that if the measurements were identical, we should be able to hear no difference between amps.

As a teenager in the late 70,s and early 80,s what used to puzzle me was why amps that didnt measure as well, sounded better than amps that had super, ultra low distortion measurements like .00003% THD!

As well as power measurements didnt tell the entire story either! Why do big, heavy amps with medium power ratings sound more powerful than other amps? Sometimes amps rated at twice the power?

If you rely soley on measurements, they are misguiding, I believe!

Ears are the true indicator of what anything really sounds like. If I like it, I like it, it doesnt really matter what the scope says!

[Steve Schell]

I certainly agree, Scott. There are many unknown factors in audio, which is in part why it is so challenging and fun. It would probably be a bummer if we managed to achieve perfect performance, as where would we go from there? We know we can never achieve perfection, which strangely seems to fuel our efforts to try.

[Hoerninger]

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/index.html In addition there are investigation by Steve Bench (http://members.aol.com/sbench102/aboutme.html) about non linearities of capacitors "The Sound of Capacitors - Capacitor Linearity **Expanded**" http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html
____________
Peter

[Zilch]

DRAT!

From all appearances, I thought I was the only one still using a 'scope.... ;)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=130034&postcount=196

[scott fitlin]

I certainly agree, Scott. There are many unknown factors in audio, which is in part why it is so challenging and fun. It would probably be a bummer if we managed to achieve perfect performance, as where would we go from there? We know we can never achieve perfection, which strangely seems to fuel our efforts to try.My take on it is this, music itself is not perfect. Certain things sound good to the ear, things like certain distortions.

As of late, we have gear that is closer to perfect than ever before. Really low distortion, surpisingly accurate performance. We dont like perfect. Perfect doesnt sound musical. Thats why many of the great vintage things from the past sound good to us, they are musical sounding because they were designed to have a sound of their own, meaning they werent totally perfect and uncolored, but, they possesed a sound that is quite like music sounds like.

Wasnt this in fact, the philosophy of Altec? The speakers didnt neccesarily measure ruler flat, but they were designed to sound like music, and to make recorded music sound lifelike and realistic!

[Zilch]

Wasnt this in fact, the philosophy of Altec? The speakers didn't neccesarily measure ruler flat, but they were designed to sound like music, and to make recorded music sound lifelike and realistic!Subjectivists would like it to be that way, but JBL has done extensive research in this area. There's even a VP of figuring this out at Harman. Their bottom line of saleability depends upon it.

Employing a combination of measured parameters, extremely high correlations are now achievable. Linear (not necessarily "flat") frequency response is a major factor.

See Toole in AES Journal, June, 2006.

[scott fitlin]

Subjectivists would like it to be that way, but JBL has done extensive research in this area. There's even a VP of figuring this out at Harman. Their bottom line of saleability depends upon it.

Employing a combination of measured parameters, extremely high correlations are now achievable. Linear (not necessarily "flat") frequency response is a major factor.

See Toole in AES Journal, June, 2006.I agree. But, some things measure great, yet dont sound great. And other things measure less than great, even measure only fair, yet sound great.

Linear? I agree this is an important factor too. Especially for bass.

Years ago, we had some cabinets with Gauss 18,s, they sounded INCREDIBLE! The kick, the bassline definition, everything. I always loved these Gauss loaded cabinets, and I used to ask the tech why Gauss sounded so good? He always said that they were very linear, and that is why they made such good bottom end. The sound these things made was terrific.

I have read Dr. Floyd Toole,s article, I agree with some of it, but, regardless of what the article states, my ears still like what my ears like!

[moldyoldy]

If the artists, producers, and engineers responsible for the PRODUCTION of our musical program material would get their heads out of their nether regions, and realize that samples, loops and other digitally generated and enhanced tricks of the trade aren't MUSICAL, listeners would have no need or desire to enhance the output of their REPRODUCTION gear, and the pursuit of perfection in exactly recreating a performance could continue.

The pursuit of simplicity and convenience is turning society into unemotive droids, we here just happen to be a little more reluctant to change than others.

Traditional musical production (via analog, acoustic, or voice) is rife with imperfections that are absolutely necessary for it to be truly pleasing to our ear; the stretched tuning of a piano, intonation of guitars, and so on. Real musicians are well aware of this, but are also prone to the same desire to make things easier as the rest of us, and technology has obliged profusely. Trying to compensate by using reproduction gear that adds its' own harmony is, well, just a band-aid (literally).

[scott fitlin]

If the artists, producers, and engineers responsible for the PRODUCTION of our musical program material would get their heads out of their nether regions, and realize that samples, loops and other digitally generated and enhanced tricks of the trade aren't MUSICAL, listeners would have no need or desire to enhance the output of their REPRODUCTION gear, and the pursuit of perfection in exactly recreating a performance could continue.

The pursuit of simplicity and convenience is turning society into unemotive droids, we here just happen to be a little more reluctant to change than others.

Traditional musical production (via analog, acoustic, or voice) is rife with imperfections that are absolutely necessary for it to be truly pleasing to our ear; the stretched tuning of a piano, intonation of guitars, and so on. Real musicians are well aware of this, but are also prone to the same desire to make things easier as the rest of us, and technology has obliged profusely. Trying to compensate by using reproduction gear that adds its' own harmony is, well, just a band-aid (literally).I agree, except, I dont think this is the wants of musicians or producers and other recording industry types like engineers, etc. I think it is what the Audio Industry and record labels wanted.

It is the industries that wanted cheaper, and more convenient things for the consumers to have. Simply put, making real music meant using session players, instruments, recording studios, producers, arrangers, recording engineers, mastering labs, mastering engineers, and vinyl, tape, and CD products.

Electronically made music really requires none of the above! One person with a computer can make, record, and master their own music. And the labels dont have to pay huge monies for all the above, they dont even have to have the music on a CD, record, or tape. It just has to be available via a "pay-for-download site" and they make money, with little or no money actually put into the music, and no product actually in the consumers hands.

Audio gear is also expensive to manufacture the right way!

Now all this is true, IMHO, and also off topic! Back on topic, however, I would not think any of todays modern manufacturers would want to make Feild Coil speakers, regardless of how they sound! Look at all the other things neccessary for feild coil speakers. Extra PS, more components of speakers themselves. Why would they want to do this at all?

Even DSP loudspeaker controllers offer both the industry and consumers economical alternatives to the old ways! 1 box has it all vs TOTL EQ,s, TOTL delay units, TOTL compressor/limiters, TOTL crossovers, etc.

With the exception of the small " Niche market " industry, this is where we are at, like it or not!

[Thom]

At a Petecostal prayer meeting who's going to say they don't feel anything? It's not even related of course, or is it?

[Thom]

http://www.roger-russell.com/notone/notone.htm

I hope no permissions were needed I really couldn't help myself

[speakerdave]

. . . . Before we start, I really don't remember the whole "emperor
has no cloths fable. What happened to the little boy. They didn't kill him did they? . . . .
No. They just cancelled his parade ticket.

David

[scott fitlin]

No. They just cancelled his parade ticket.

David:rotfl:

[moldyoldy]

....I agree, except, I dont think this is the wants of musicians or producers and other recording industry types like engineers, etc....


Ah, Scott, sadly it is. I followed the path myself, in '79, I gave my Wurly EP to a neighbor kid and bought a new Yamaha. It was simply a matter of 30 lbs and room to squeeze another babe in the back. Took over 15 years of what I can only call "hollow" enjoyment of music, and successively smaller, fancier keyboards to soak in. After getting hold of some good old musical instruments again, the zing returned. There's soul there again, and it shows on the faces that listen (which are few, 'cause I ain't draggin' that stuff all over...).

Not long ago, I shucked out for a decent audio interface, and can now easily record at home. While I'm having a blast playing with it, I know I'm not that good, and will spare the masses that pain. As you said, anyone can do it now, so it's a jump ball, and can as easily go foul as fair.

So, if field coil drivers can be produced new as an equal or better option than current tech, by all means they should be used. Existing antiques of good original fidelity in general won't go far towards pleasing the masses, and only a few lucky folks have examples of old field coils that perform as new. In the meantime, the not-so-good ones sound pretty sweet behind a 6V6 pair in an MI amp.:bouncy: