EVEREST DD66000 [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

Zilch

09-08-2006, 03:22 PM

ハーマン, 1 JBL "Mt Everest" speaker of 315 ten thousand Yen
- "DD66000". Using beryllium for the diaphragm

[/URL] From September 21st consecutive sale
Standard price: 315 ten thousand Yen - 346 ten thousand 5,000 Yen (1)

The ハーマンインターナショナル (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_01.jpg)corporation (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.harman-japan.co.jp%2f)is the high ended speaker of the JBL brand, is the establishment 60th anniversary commemoration model of JBL "Project EVEREST DD66000" is consecutively sold from September 21st. As for model of standard finish 1 315 ten thousand Yen. The incoming order production finish reaches 346 ten thousand 5,000 Yen.
As for standard finish rose wood (RW) with cherry (CH) 2 models. With incoming order production the ebony (EB) with May pulling (MA) 2 colors are prepared. The schedule which sells the rose wood from September 21st, as for the cherry from 10 ends of the month becomes start of sale. About 4 months payment date depends on the incoming order production model.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_02.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_02.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_06.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_06.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_03.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_03.jpg) Ebony model Rose wood model
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_04.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_04.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_05.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_05.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_07.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_07.jpg) Cherry model Maple model As for external size 965×469×1,109mm (width × depth × height) with, as for weight 142kg
The cone woofer 2 basis of 380mm diameter and the 100mm diameter beryllium compression driver for the treble and the 25mm diameter beryllium compression driver for the super treble each 1 basis 3 ways which are loaded, floor type of 4 speakers. The fiberglass and the bi- radial horn of SonoGlass make which is produced with hot high pressure mold formation technology are loaded in the compression driver.
"Project K2 S9800 Special Edition" (1 173 ten thousand 2,500 Yen) the flagship model which it exceeds. Loading the compression driver which is the trademark of the same company. With unit constitution/the appearance like the monitor speaker for the studio while, the enclosure which adopts elegant curved line was used, "the sound quality of the studio skill you say that efficiency and design were pursued as the consumer model which it is possible with the living".
Largest feature adopted "476Be" of the 100mm diameter which adopts the diaphragm of pure beryllium for the compression driver for the treble. When in the diaphragm of the aluminum and magnesium the high pass signal above 18kHz is input, at diaphragm all the division vibration occurs, there is a problem that output decreases with phase interference.
With pure beryllium being accurate even with high pass, uniform piston motion being possible, you say that it can do the playback of smooth quality to the high end. In addition, the individual diamond edge just it forms in the circumferential section of the diaphragm.
The super treble limits using the compression driver "045Be-1" which loads the beryllium diaphragm of 25mm diameter. The playback which does not have the division vibration even above 50kHz is possible. Light weight by the fact that more, aluminum ribbon voice coil of winding without using the bobbin, is installed in the diaphragm, to do the light weight conversion of drive system, improvement the response. With Project K2 S9800SE it was adopted in comparison with "045Be", the output improvement of 5dB was carried out with zone above 30kHz.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_08.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_08.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_12.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_12.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_10.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_10.jpg) Upper tier 100mm diameter for treble, lower position 25mm diameter beryllium compression driver for super treble With beryllium the division vibration does not happen From the point of view of entire size 469mm of depth is shortly felt
As for woofer pulp cone adoption unit "1501AL" of 380mm diameter 2 uses. 2 bases are not the case that it is moving in the same way, it operates one side below 150Hz, devotes to limits playback ability low to below 30Hz. Already, one side the crossover points same as the usual woofer with compression driver "476Be" for the treble and 700Hz. Because of that, as for crossover frequency there are 3 points of 150/700Hz and 20kHz.
As for playback frequency characteristic of altogether system 45Hz - 50kHz (-6dB). Adopting the alnico 5DG magnet and large aperture voice coil to the driver of the woofer. 16 1.6mm thick steel rings, 15 0.8mm thick copper rings we load the inner gap ring which is made to laminate alternately inside, we cancel the demagnetization with the large electrical drive which is problem of the alnico magnet.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_13.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_13.jpg) [URL="http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_14.jpg"] (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_15.jpg) As for woofer pulp cone adoption unit "1501AL" of 380mm diameter The woofer of one side devotes to the limits low, one wind it has become the constitution which changes Inside
Using the large aperture edge wise volume aluminum ribbon voice coil of the new design to voice coil. By the fact that coil density inside the magnetic gap is converted maximally, actualizing 25% improvement of transient improvement and resistance input. As for diaphragm プƒ…アパルプ. The rib was provided on the surface, in the reverse side peripheral section controlling the division vibration and strengthening the rigidity were actualized by the fact that the individual aqua plus coating is administered.
As for impedance 8 with Ω, as for allowance input 500W. As for output overpressure value 96dB (2.83V:1m). As for directional characteristics of horn treble degree of 100×6 (horizontal × verticality). Super treble degree of 60×30 (same). Adjustment of level control of the treble and damping control of the woofer is possible.
Daniel アシƒ…クラフト of the industrial designer designs the enclosure. With bus reflex, as for port preparation to rear. As for plane surface baffle 25mm thick MDF. The curved surface panel consists 2 MDF panels where thickness differs. As for baffle for woofer 45mm thick. The curved surface is done, the variety controls the occurrence of the internal standing wave. As for external size 965×469×1,109mm (width × depth × height) with, as for weight 142kg.

edgewound

09-08-2006, 03:23 PM

I heard from my "SUPER SECRET" source!!!;) $60,000 U.S. per pair

I'm jaded...and I think most of us here are. Maybe my pockets just aren't deep enough...maybe I just don't get "it".

For $60,000.00...I can buy a nice "E" Series Mercedes-Benz that is a very nice car loaded with all sorts of technology...or I can put a new roof, remodel the kitchen, replaster the pool, and update the bathrooms in my house...and more.

I know it's taken lots of R&D man-hours, testing, etc. I'm curious what the "per unit" cost to manufacture these beauties is, and the total unit sales projections. When I see a beautiful speaker system...I just don't see $60,000.00 worth of "worth". Hell...I can buy 3 Retro Ford Mustangs for that amount...or a world-beating new Corvette. Maybe I need to see the long term enjoyment factor out 20 years?

This stuff is made on CNC machines that can spit out machined parts in minutes....Am I missing something?....other than the mystique?

Somebody hep me...pleeeze.

Zilch

09-08-2006, 03:25 PM

It is the monitor transferring, but the sound which is made to enjoy
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_16.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_16.jpg) Circumstances of playback demonstration
Using the player and the amplifier of マークレビンソン, also playback demonstration was done. As for the model which is used the pre-amp "No32L" (336 ten thousand Yen), the monaural power amplifier "No433" (220 ten thousand 5,000 Yen), the CD player "No390SL" (141 ten thousand 7,500 Yen) with the system which is said.
The audio harsh environment, as for the meeting place being the large hall of the Imperial Hotel Ltd., as for the floor carpet where the hair foot is long. But, as for DD66000 does not do the handicap such as that either the thing, showing the playback ability transient to be good with clearing only the horn system. It is absorbed it made the concave sound whose feeling of the extent where the water of the glass shakes with stirring of the drum in spite, is good the carpet echo.
As for source focusing on JAZZ and classic preparation. With "Don't be That Way" of the "Maeda Sadao ミーツ 5 saxophone" the projection of the cymbal and the trumpet is strong very, when the fact that the acoustic image develops before the speaker is jumped over, the eye is closed, that the extent which you can think whether the musical instrument the head of the nose a little first is not certain. Also the woofer high speed of the medium treble was overtaken sound, it was extravagant and the sound which becomes pleasant, good quality of being settled you made feel. The high end "of JBL of JAZZ" it is the sound quality which seems.

With the classic the character drastically changes. It is drawn with the arrangement which the orchestra makes the chitin in the sound field where it develops shows the phase of the modern sound field type Sousei type speaker. Playback ability of the monitor transferring which can do the expression which responds to the source is made to feel. Because the seat which sits down with demonstration from the center considerably it is from the right it could not catch the condition and the like of the acoustic image accurately, but focusing was the impression which will have been been clear.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_17.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_17.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_18.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_18.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_19.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_19.jpg) As for demonstration system pre- "No32L" of マークレビンソン (336 ten thousand Yen), monaural power amplifier "No433" (220 ten thousand 5,000 Yen), CD player "No390SL" (141 ten thousand 7,500 Yen) It is the environment whose condition is good acoustic and with cannot say, but DD66000 showed high performance

* "The model which accomplished everything, has dream and will"
President Koutarou ハーマン international Yasuda which does sale in the country "ハーツフィールド" and "パラゴン" and so on, from the early name machine of JBL, is the present high end, the model that it was built up in the kind of thinking where you looked back to at "" Project K2 "and with audio 5 years and 10 years, you did everything which can have the manufacturer and exhausted, spits the blood it appears as a high end. Unlike those of the spread price range, dream of the manufacturer and the engineer, it is the product where it can include will ", that you explain.
"Never it is bright with you cannot call the circumstance which surrounds audio. Therefore such a time very, it is delightful to be able to deliver this DD66000. As for dream of the import agency, everyone rejoices the user and the manufacturer and reporting, with the product which was sold. And audio industry activates. You think "that thousand 載 chance of one couple for that could be given today, that, you talked the enthusiasm which is bet on the sale of DD66000.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_20.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_20.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_21.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_21.jpg) http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl1_22.gif (http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2f docs%2f20060908%2fjbl1_22.jpg) President Koutarou ハーマン international Yasuda With the meeting place entrance, the model which such as パラゴン colors the history of JBL and K2 was introduced

Zilch

09-08-2006, 03:33 PM

By the way, shouldn't it be DD66000 (rather than D66000) for 'defined directivity'?That was my first question with respect to the "Everest" name. Does it incorporate the asymmetrical sound field?

Not so far as has yet been disclosed. 100° x 60° on the "mid" (which goes to 20 kHz) and 60° x 30° on the UHF, similar to K2 and Project Array specs, as I recall.

[And Project May, of course.... :) ]

scott fitlin

09-08-2006, 03:59 PM

new Corvette.

Somebody hep me...pleeeze.I like those new vettes too!

Lots of fun cruising. :D

Mr. Widget

09-08-2006, 03:59 PM

I'm jaded...and I think most of us here are. Maybe my pockets just aren't deep enough...maybe I just don't get "it".This is a prestige product. It really isn't about value. Is a $1,200 bottle of Cognac worth it?

I am glad that they have created this mile post... will it sound better than someone else's prestige speaker system? It will to some and not to others... all of that misses the point. The point is that the engineering team was allowed to really go for it and the industrial design team really hit this one out of the park. JBL will produce a number of these beauties and they will join the ranks of the Hartsfield, the Paragon, and the Everest DD55000 on people's list of coveted JBLs.

Widget

speakerdave

09-08-2006, 04:09 PM

Well, visually it's a really stunning product. I hope I'll get a chance to hear it sometime. Congratulations to JBL and all those individually involved in its development.

David

(Does this mean I can buy a pair of H9500 horns now for my K2 wannabe's ?)

scott fitlin

09-08-2006, 04:15 PM

Maybe that compression driver could Be available as a component.

That would Be nice!

Mr. Widget

09-08-2006, 04:18 PM

Maybe that compression driver could Be available as a component.

That would Be nice!I'd love to check it out too... Scott... cool your jets, you won't like it as much as your vintage 2441s... I'd bet money on that one.:D

Widget

Guido

09-08-2006, 04:24 PM

Personally interesting for me is that the leading american loudspeaker company celebrates it's 60th anniversary by launching the new SOTA speaker in Japan.
We, the lansing heritage community, need to gather information by online babelfish translation from japanese websites.

I feel a bit standing aside. You?

During the last weeks of the 60th anniversary hype I was thinking about selling ALL my JBL gear to afford the new TOTL speaker.
2 Problems:
1st They do not even know the 4348 or 4338 speakes here in Germany so how should I get an Everest DD66000?
2nd For 60,000 I'll renew my nice audi convertible plus buy the parts for a DIY M9500 with Be diaphragms from Taiwan. :D

I can only guess that the latter is the reason why you can buy those babies only in Japan.

scott fitlin

09-08-2006, 04:40 PM

I'd love to check it out too... Scott... cool your jets, you won't like it as much as your vintage 2441s... I'd bet money on that one.:D

WidgetYou think?

Because I`m stuck in the mud, or because the old 2441,s actually sound darn good, no matter what era they are from?

:dont-know

:rotfl:

Don McRitchie

09-08-2006, 06:11 PM

A few more pictures before I leave for northern Japan for the next two days. First, the 476Be compression driver:

Don McRitchie

09-08-2006, 06:14 PM

Mr. JBL. I honestly have no idea what that was about.

Don McRitchie

09-08-2006, 06:15 PM

A higher resolution picture of the innards.

Chas

09-08-2006, 06:16 PM

You are all blended.
Why the heck I need to see electrolythics in THOSE speakers.
Unbelievable. None of the several hundred networks I built ever had electrolythics. Never.

So even if I could ever afford them I need to open up the networks and start modifying Arghhh.

Otherwize I'm blended too ;)

Guido, my first reaction was similar. BUT - FYI my posting was purely an observation. I HAVE found that sometimes good engineering has some hidden secrets:p . Let's face it, if the device has the correct characteristics or is designed for a particular application and/or has an understanding designer, I won't sell it short based on preconceived notions.

There are some experienced folks behind this offering. I don't want to jump to premature conclusions.

Just my 2 cents (pfennig) worth!

Don McRitchie

09-08-2006, 06:18 PM

My attempt to capture some of the flash of the introduction - still pictures do not do the scale of the presentation justice.

Don McRitchie

09-08-2006, 06:21 PM

An obligatory picture of Tokyo at night - walking back from the restuarant in the Ginza

speakerdave

09-08-2006, 06:21 PM

Mr. JBL. I honestly have no idea what that was about.
Shinto invocation, maybe.

In any case, I gotta have one of those black and orange cardboard JBL visors.

David

Edit: On looking more closely at the photo it appears that the gentleman has taken a JBL placard and fastened to a billed cap.

speakerdave

09-08-2006, 06:28 PM

Judging from the size of the enclosure for those two fifteen's, I'm guessing very low frequency reproduction is not one of the design goals.

David

Ian Mackenzie

09-08-2006, 06:31 PM

Mr JBL. Could be a Giskard impostor!

But I love the JBL cap!

Make sure you bring one of those back Don.

Please forgive my humour.

Ian

Hoerninger

09-08-2006, 07:59 PM

Judging from the size of the enclosure for those two fifteen's, I'm guessing very low frequency reproduction is not one of the design goals.

David
Taken from the Bablefish specs:
As for playback frequency characteristic of altogether system 45Hz - 50kHz (-6dB).
As for external size 965×469×1,109mm (width × depth × height) with, as for weight 142kg.

Rough volume estimation:
half cylindrical shape, R = 0,42 m, H = 1,0 m results in V=(PI*R*R)/2*H=277 Liter.

Any specs of the woofers?
____________
Peter

bone215

09-08-2006, 08:02 PM

Making the pictures of heaven inside my parts of happiness is supreme. Magnificent sizing of sound power most clearly delivered as it is.
Sparkling as a rain falls. In my rooms eye I see them glowing to the jazz saxophone with piano ringing.
My fortune negative permit the sale will not.
Sadness.

Shane Shuster

09-08-2006, 10:59 PM

Judging from the size of the enclosure for those two fifteen's, I'm guessing very low frequency reproduction is not one of the design goals.

David
David, they are only 60 grand. Did you want them to do everything?:)

Don, thanks for taking the pics of Japan. I think they are neat to see. You did a great job taking them.

mech986

09-09-2006, 12:41 AM

A couple of observations.

Dual rear flared ports so JBL has not given up on the ported reflex designs.

Big, big ports so tuning is likely into the 30's if not lower.

Did anyone see the Duracell batteries on the front panel? All for charge-coupling, I assume. That Endgadget site had postings about how could they power the system using just 18 volts :D ?

Did anyone notice the 1501AL woofer has the surround mounted on the FRONT of the cone? Heavens!!! I'm not even sure the surround is made of foam, could it be a thin rubber? Can Don confirm?

Couldn't tell if the 1501AL is a differential drive unit either. The crossovers sure look complicated enough. I do agree that the bipolar electrolytics seem out of place but then enough charge coupled PP caps to match up a 150hz low pass crossover probably would have taken the entire bottom of the cabinet!!

:D Loved the compound curved cabinets, and the matching curved black rolling dollies used on the floor demonstator. Wonder if those come with the speakers if needed? 314 pounds is alot to move around satisfying the WAF for placement!!

The horns look great but too plain and plastic, even though they are made of plastic!! Maybe the pictures don't do them justice. However, think of what they would look like in a contrasting applied wood veneer or have been made from CNC cut wood?

Edge, I understand where you are coming from. But a Porsche GT2/GT3/Turbo or Carrerra GT represent the state of the art too and are priced like it. My assumption is the Be components are all very very expensive and exclusive. The Cabinets, assembly, and shipping probably account for a significant part of the price too!! If these are actually made here in Northridge, shipping to Japan must be at least a $1K proposition. But maybe JBL will send down the technology to more comparably easy to afford speakers. The Project Array is more doable for more folks.

Congrats, JBL. A fitting product with more than a big nod to JBL's roots.

Regards,

Bart

Jan Daugaard

09-09-2006, 01:17 AM

It would appear that the two 1501AL are mounted in the same enclosure -- there is no dividing wall between them.

Separate enclosures for woofers have been touted on this forum.

Mr. Widget

09-09-2006, 01:25 AM

It would appear that the two 1501AL are mounted in the same enclosure -- there is no dividing wall between them.

Separate enclosures for woofers have been touted on this forum.Don't believe everything you read here.

Seriously, if Greg Timbers was able to use a single volume and reach his goal... I am sure it was the right decision. If I were doing it, I'd still follow what I know has worked the best for me. I'd have two chambers.

Widget

MJC

09-09-2006, 05:42 AM

Those speakers look great, but for $60K I'd have to sell my house.
My son, who spent 3 years in in Japan, while in the Navy, plans on returning to Japan after he finishes electronic school. Maybe I should follow suit, sell the house, move to Japan and plenty of money in my pocket to buy JBLs that will never see stores here in the USA.

JBLnsince1959

09-09-2006, 05:57 AM

Judging from the size of the enclosure for those two fifteen's, I'm guessing very low frequency reproduction is not one of the design goals.

David

Don't believe everything you read here.

Seriously, if Greg Timbers was able to use a single volume and reach his goal... I am sure it was the right decision. If I were doing it, I'd still follow what I know has worked the best for me. I'd have two chambers.

Widget

We can understand the design better if we understand the Japanese market better. With their smaller rooms, the Japanese do not normally go for really deep booming bass like we do here. They prefere a quick, tight bass with a different type of tuning.

Many of JBL's best ( K2, DD66000 etc) are designed for Japanese taste..

I'm sure as time goes on we'll learn more about the specs and reasoning behind the speakers...

Sgt. Schultz

09-09-2006, 06:58 AM

Mr JBL. Could be a Giskard impostor!
IanPoor Ian, you're such a L :(

Giskard is reflected in the screen below putting another CD into the machine to see what Don thinks about "C' Est Le Vent, Betty" by Gabriel Yared (or maybe it was "Nobody Does Me" by Diane Schuur).

Perhaps Don can elaborate on his impressions of how the system sounds, including how negatively a room can affect said system. This room was "good". Evidently the previous room was "bad".

As for the other comments; It's a great loudspeaker, easily the best JBL has ever produced, manufacturing compromises aside. I think the comment about previous JBL systems being 80% is a wee bit generous but only a direct comparison would do. I don't recall another JBL system captivating me like this one did and I've "heard 'em all".

Greg asked us to hold off posting the White Paper until Stereo Sound publishes on the 13th of September. It's been hell sitting on all this info since last year.....

Zilch - this schematic is for you to enjoy. Your dilligence over the past few years is impressive indeed. The response curve is without the super tweeter since it is a superfluous item from a functional stand point but nontheless required for the intended marketplace. Don't be put off by the dip around 20 kHz, it was found that the 4-incher goes out to ~ 40 kHz. Is this vindication for the classic JBL 15-inch 2-way? Before the "whatever their names are" get busy with their "audiophile" reviews of this system - those fifteens are quite superlative covering their intended bandwidth as is that 4-inch C.D. Simply stunning!

Grab it while you can since Sgt. Schultz will most likely be banned as a sock puppet as soon as the moderators catch him. :rotfl: :duel:

jbljfan

09-09-2006, 07:15 AM

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959

09-09-2006, 07:41 AM

Grab it while you can since Sgt. Schultz will most likely be banned as a sock puppet as soon as the moderators catch him. :rotfl: :duel:

:applaud: :rotfl:

scott fitlin

09-09-2006, 09:02 AM

:applaud:

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 09:31 AM

Hope you're enjoying your time with Col. Klink.

I'm sure several have grabbed the loot in case your puppet loses its sock. As for me, "I see nothing!"

Chas

09-09-2006, 09:33 AM

Grab it while you can since Sgt. Schultz will most likely be banned as a sock puppet as soon as the moderators catch him. :rotfl: :duel:[/quote]

Aha! Say hi to Hogan for me:)

Nice to hear from you; I was having serious withdrawl..:barf:

speakerdave

09-09-2006, 10:05 AM

Visually the new Everest reminds me of the RCA LC-9A in these pictures posted by Earl:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11418&highlight=rca

Looks like the new mid driver, like the 2447 and various others, has jettisoned the obsolete 160Hz exponential throat, so it can have that big horn and be time aligned with the woofer, or nearly so. The only other beryllium driver I know of that you can do that with is the TAD 4002 without the throat.

Anybody know what the crossover points are? Edit: I've read Z's post more closely. The woofer/mid crossover is 700 Hz.

JBLnsince1959 makes a good point about the preferences in the Japanese market on bass alignment. I was aware of it but should have mentioned it.

David

Edit: Of course--I forgot to mention--the 243x family of drivers, but the 2435 doesn't go as high as I think a beryllium driver should be able to, and so has some limitation as to application. A two-way most likely is out.

Mr. Widget

09-09-2006, 10:33 AM

Grab it while you can since Sgt. Schultz will most likely be banned as a sock puppet as soon as the moderators catch him. :rotfl: :duel:

The post isn't going anywhere... but yes, Sgt. Schultz has left the building.

Widget

spkrman57

09-09-2006, 10:33 AM

I agree with the following quote from Sgt Schultz:

"Is this vindication for the classic JBL 15-inch 2-way?"

I too look at this with wonder and anticipation as a 15" 2-way fan!!!!!!
:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Ron

scott fitlin

09-09-2006, 10:44 AM

The post isn't going anywhere... but yes, Sgt. Schultz has left the building.

WidgetI think I hear Col Hogan in the underground tunnel right now!

:D

Zilch

09-09-2006, 01:37 PM

Zilch - this schematic is for you to enjoy. Grab it while you can....WOO HOO!

Notch filters! :bouncy:

Thanks, Sgt. Schultz. :thmbsup:

[That Giskard's pretty "snappy!" :p ]

Zilch

09-09-2006, 01:49 PM

A two-way most likely is out.Look to "next generation" damped laminate 4" diaphragm drivers for a start, maybe.

I'm guessing we'll see an "improved" 2435HPL in the future, as well.

I'm just one day with 2452H-SL so far. A smooth 20 kHz is plenty high enough for me.

Re: the bass - the cabinet appears suitably configured for optional 1-Pi (corner) placement, if desired....

speakerdave

09-09-2006, 02:41 PM

. . . . I'm just one day with 2452H-SL so far. A smooth 20 kHz is plenty high enough for me.. . . . .
Is that like a ferrite 2450SL?

Zilch

09-09-2006, 03:08 PM

Is that like a ferrite 2450SL?Off topic in DD66000 thread, perhaps, but, nope, neodymium. More like 2451SL, it would seem. Throatless "pancake," presumably "Optimized Aperture," JBL uses them on PT Waveguides in their new high-end Venue Performance series. Follow the link here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=123766#post123766

Don't know much about them; "damped laminate" seems to be aquaplas'd titanium. There may be other changes, as well, to warrant the new designation.

Non-"SL" drawing:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Discrete%20Sales%20Models/2452HJ.pdf

In addition to the damped diaphragm, "SL" version has a smaller (3.25") horn mounting bolt circle.

Product FR curve:

http://www.jblpro.com/installedsound/vpseries/specsheets/VP7215_95.pdf

That's what I'm getting on PT-H95, too. They'll make their way onto modified 2352 horns here, ultimately.

They just recently showed up as purchasable on the transducer list at JBL Pro Parts....

Steve Schell

09-09-2006, 03:26 PM

Speakerdave, I was at JBL some months ago with Don and Sgt. Schultz and we got to audition the new systems at length. I believe I remember Greg Timbers mentioning that the crossover point to the supertweeter is 20kHz.- that is, the tweeter functions only above 20kHz. Don and I then took trips to the front of the room to plaster our ears against the tweeter. We heard, as Schultz would say, "noTHING."

Zilch

09-09-2006, 03:38 PM

Allegedly, you hear ultrasonic with your eyes, not your ears.

[I don't think I do, in either case.... :p ]

MJC

09-09-2006, 03:51 PM

edgewound

09-09-2006, 04:18 PM

All the supertweeters cross at 20k, in the Studio L, K2.

Everyone knows that the purpose of that supertweeter crossed above 20kHz is to keep the rodents and bats away. JBL pest control.

I would love to have the chance to see and hear this exercise in art, science, and legacy in person. I'm quite envious of what Don was invited to do. It really must be exhilirating.

I doubt we'll have the chance here though anytime soon. I've been to something like 17 consecutive Winter CES shows, and everytime there was a flagship JBL on display, they've never been connected to a music system....never playing sound. Just sitting looking pretty.

speakerdave

09-09-2006, 04:21 PM

. . . . the crossover point to the supertweeter is 20kHz.- that is, the tweeter functions only above 20kHz. . . . .

Thanks.

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 04:38 PM

Everything you want to know, if you know Japanese.

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 04:41 PM

For all you DIY fanatics, get out your jigsaws, routers, and sanders.

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 04:43 PM

This made me think of you... :p

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 04:47 PM

There are four, yes four finishes.

For those who've been pining for wood, here's a family photo of the entire forest.

scott fitlin

09-09-2006, 04:48 PM

:applaud:

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 04:59 PM

Here's Stereo Sound's HiViweb assemblage of the DD66000's ancestors.

Steve Schell

09-09-2006, 05:01 PM

The covering on the woofer baffle boards is leather; not sure if this has been mentioned already.

Titanium Dome

09-09-2006, 05:15 PM

I think that's the first I've read about it. Is it 'Roo leather, like my old Adidas track shoes?

Don C

09-09-2006, 08:33 PM

I think that they are stunning, and they look better each time I see the pictures. Bravo.

Steve Schell

09-09-2006, 10:28 PM

The DD66000 really does look stunningly beautiful in person, a design for the ages fully in keeping with the standards set by the Hartsfield and Paragon. Dan Ashcraft and his team did a stellar job with the industrial design.

They also sound quite splendid as you might expect, and exceeded my expectations for a horn system with a direct radiator low end. Greg Timbers is the best there is at selecting and blending elements to create a unified whole, and many high end speaker designers could learn an awful lot from him. I suspect that Jim Lansing would be proud of the work that Greg has done here and throughout his career at JBL.

Ducatista47

09-09-2006, 11:38 PM

They also sound quite splendid as you might expect, and exceeded my expectations for a horn system with a direct radiator low end. Greg Timbers is the best there is at selecting and blending elements to create a unified whole, and many high end speaker designers could learn an awful lot from him. I suspect that Jim Lansing would be proud of the work that Greg has done here and throughout his career at JBL.
And how. Think of the complexities involved in designing the four-way 43xx cone/horn monitors. I give Mr. Timbers a silent thank you every time I listen to my 4345's. For me, he is THE MAN.

Wish I could afford his new creation. Since it seems to blow away whatever came before, it must be desirable beyond words.

Clark in Peoria

Rolf

09-10-2006, 12:25 AM

The post isn't going anywhere... but yes, Sgt. Schultz has left the building.

Widget

Why?

Hoerninger

09-10-2006, 03:16 AM

Sgt. Schultz had to go by law and order,
I suppose.
Don McRitchie has changed forum rules, he has an better insight than we do:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113373&postcount=1
___________
Peter

spkrman57

09-10-2006, 05:44 AM

I don't question how I get info, just happy when it happens.

Ron

TimG

09-10-2006, 09:55 PM

It looks like the sections of the white paper are already posted here, but I can't figure out how to translate it.

http://www.jbl60th.jp/

jack_bouska

09-11-2006, 05:20 PM

I have reviewed the recent posts on the DD66000, and had a look at the technical information on this site, and on the 60th anniversary JBL-Japan site, and I'm embarrassed to say the information raises more questions than it answers. In the hopes that some members of this forum can shed more light on the subject, I would like to ask a few basic questions about the design choices, as follows:

1) The low frequency cutoff -3dB point (45 Hz) has already been mentioned as being somewhat on the high side for a world class system of such high cost, however a ported system typically exhibits a 4th order roll off below the F3 point, however the DD66000 shows 2nd order rolloff (-24dB at 20hz). The ports appear to be vented to a common cavity, so are the two woofers identical, or do they have different TS parms (Fs, Vas, Qt, etc)?

2) What frequency are the pair ports and interior volume tuned to?

3) If the ports are tuned to a much lower frequency than cut-off, can electronic bass boost be added to safely extend response?

4) The DD66000 specifies the capability for bi-amping. Is this true bi-amping, or simply bi-wireing? If bi-amping, then does JBL market a separate high level crossover for this unit?

5) The pair of woofers operate in parallel between about 45Hz and 150 (or 200) Hz, with one of the woofers rolled off above that. The low end choice appears reasonable, as the woofer centers are spaced within 1/4 wavelength for all frequencies below 200Hz, but the roll off of one of the woofers (labeled LF1) leaves the 2nd woofer (labeled LF2) slightly off-center on the front baffle. At low frequencies, this will be undetectable, but nearer the upper crossover frequency (listed as 700Hz on the spec sheet) this may create astigmatic coverage by inducing a 45 deg tilt to the plane of constant phase in the crossover overlap region (approximately 1 octave between -6dB points according to the published curves). Most modern designs tend to place the drivers in a vertical line, so that the isophase plane is invariant in the horizontal axis, ensuring all listeners (at seated ear height) across the area of coverage hear the same frequency response. With the active woofer offset by ~10" from the vertical line running through the tweeter center, any shift horizontally will result in variation of the path length between woofer and tweeter, creating significant lobeing in the directivity/frequency response (over the 1 octave overlap region) as the angle between listener and front baffle axis is varied. The question is: has JBL done something special with this design to mitigate this effect?

6) The pictures, and drawings indicate sharp edges, both on top (into horn flare), bottom, and sides (with protruding edges on the sides). These abrupt baffle terminations are likely to cause significant diffraction effects for the LF2 woofer, which will have 180 degree directivity coverage up to a frequency of ~700Hz. A single driver on a square baffle measuring 40" x 40" would produce a strong peak-trough-peak frequency ripple in the response, which would occur at 300, 600 & 900Hz. While it is true that the non-symmetric placement of the LF2 woofer on the front baffle will suppress some of the frequency response anomalies, it is also the case that the rapid acoustic impedance contrast at the baffle edge will act as a distributed set of secondary sources, 180degrees out of phase, and temporally displaced from that of the main LF2 wave front. These delayed secondary sources have been reported (by researchers such as Geddees) as being both audible, and objectionable, despite careful asymmetric driver placement, and smooth on axis frequency response. The question is: has JBL done something special with this design to mitigate audible diffraction effects?

7) The generous dimensions of the front panel are echoed by a pair of significant measurements across the internal volume of the DD66000, about 38" high, and 30" wide. These two dimensions will generate cavity resonance modes of ~175Hz, and ~215Hz. (plus harmonic modes) The back panel is curved, so the front to back resonance will be much higher in frequency (1st mode ~550Hz), and distributed due to the variable depth. The horizontal and vertical dimensions do not vary appreciably, so the modal resonances will be present within the enclosure. Indeed, two small response bumps are visible on the graph from post #67 at 175 and 220Hz. without seeing a waterfall plot, or cumulative spectral analysis, I am unable to discern if these response anomalies are under damped or not. So my question is: what has JBL used (other than judicious application of fiberglass batting) to attenuate these internal resonance modes?

8) I also note that the horn appears to be a bi-radial, with published coverage of 100deg x 60deg. The 100deg coverage (+/- 50deg horizontal axis) is a trifle wide, and means that however the speakers are angled, they will always generate an early reflection from either the side walls, or the wall behind the speaker. These early reflections are notorious for interfering with high resolution imaging. For example, corner placement with a 80deg CD horn simultaneously avoids reflection from the near side wall and back wall, and can generate near holographic imaging in a good design. The question is this: how does JBL recommend setting these speakers up in a normal living room?

9) The horn mouth also appears to have little, if any radius or gentle flare rate change transition into the plane of the front baffle, all the edges appear quite sharp. Although this is visually dramatic, it is also known to have adverse sonic implications. The abrupt termination at the horn mouth generates significant diffracted energy, which appears as an acoustic impedance contrast that sets up internal resonances, between mouth and phase plug, within the length of the horn. These resonances are responsible for much of the dreaded "horn sound", and create a comb filter effect which is visible as ripple on a standard frequency response graph. The physical length of the resonating chamber and time period of resonance is related to the periodicity of the ripple on the response by the equation Reflection time = 1/Fp. When I study the response graph from post #67, I can clearly see a series of ripples with a period somewhere between 1-1.2kHz. This corresponds to a resonant temporal period of ~.85 to 1ms, or a (two way) path length of about 30-35cm. This would mean a path length in the horn (from mouth to throat) of approximately 7", which seems to correspond to the device in the DD66000. My question is this: Why has JBL chosen to use a bi-radial horn, with poor mouth termination, when the JBL-Pro division has very sophisticated devices which perform to a much higher standard (both for CD, and acoustic impedance matching.)

9) The last question is generic, and relates to the employment of a passive crossover, in what is supposed to be a cost-no-object state of the art system. Most modern studio monitors, and almost all large public address systems use active filters, and multi amp drive. Significant advances have been made in the area of digital crossover controllers, and indeed JBL was among the first to employ this successfully with the DMS-1 monitor. So my last question is this: Does anyone know why JBL chose to use passive crossovers instead of the much higher fidelity route with a digital-active multi-amp configuration?

Thanks, I'm just curious,
Jack Bouska

Oh, forgot to ask one more question:
10) The documentation lists the horn as covering 100x60deg, however the operating woofer LF2 will not have significant directivity narrowing except at frequencys above the crossover point, reaching 100deg at just above 1kHz, and 60deg at beyond 2kHz. This will means that the LF2 and horn will have differing sold-angle coverage patterns just below, throughout, and just above the crossover point. This has been identified in the JBL sound system design manual as leading to problems in balancing the EQ between the direct and reverberant sound fields. My question is this: how has JBL balanced the DD66000? Have they focused more on the direct arrival, or on the reverberant portion (in a “typical” living room?

Robh3606

09-11-2006, 06:26 PM

Does anyone know why JBL chose to use passive crossovers instead of the much higher fidelity route with a digital-active multi-amp configuration?

Hello Jack

My guess would be SACD/DSD and analog sources would have to encodded. Not everyone is on the bandwagon that digital is completely transparent. There is a schematic posted in the earlier part of the thread to answer your biamp questions. The woofers can safely handle EQ. More later.

Rob:)

jack_bouska

09-12-2006, 02:21 AM

Hello Jack

There is a schematic posted in the earlier part of the thread to answer your biamp questions.

Rob:)

Thanks for the reply - I have briefly reviewed the schematics, and my interpretation of the bi-amp switch positions indicates that the bi-amp setting would by-pass the passive crossover between LF2 and HF drivers, while leaving the response tailoring (EQ) for LF1, and HF in circuit. (the HF to UHF xover is always in circuit). This "halfway house" appears to allow the end user to insert a generic 2nd order (or higher) active crossover, and facilitate the use of two stereo amplifiers to power the system. Leaving the response tailoring, gain setting, and HF-UHF xover in circuit relieves the end user from the requirement of emulating the complex EQ using whatever generic "off the shelf" active filter set that they decide to use.

This still begs the question as to why JBL would design a system for bi-amping without providing an application specific active (digital -or- discrete/analogue) crossover option, so that all the attendant the insertion loss (from the passive gain setting), and complex impedance baggage from the response tailoring inductive & capacitive components (left in circuit) could be eliminated?

Hello Jack

Not everyone is on the bandwagon that digital is completely transparent.
Rob:)

I agree with your statement that "not everyone is on the bandwagon that digital is completely transparent", yet I am always left wondering how difficult it must be for these same people to select any modern CD/DVD-A/SACD recording that has NOT undergone some level of digitization and DSP manipulation during the recording / mastering process. The licensing agreements for SACD and DVD-A might force the output to always be in the analogue domain, however in my experience, re-digitizing this signal (for room correction, EQ, or DSP based xover) causes little (if any) audible degradation of the signal. Claims of digital degradation occur frequently in conversations among my audio friends, and apparently, on web forums as well. Rather than be swayed by anecdotal, 2nd hand subjective conjecture from the self appointed audiophile-intelligentsia, I invariably find myself forced to rely on my own experience (from my aural auditions), backed up by my own acoustic measurements, both of which tell me that properly implemented digital based DSP is mostly indistinguishable from analogue processing, while providing a comprehensive toolkit of EQ and crossovers which would be problematic to implement using discrete analogue components.

Jack Bouska

Ian Mackenzie

09-12-2006, 04:18 AM

jack_bouska

09-12-2006, 05:32 AM

Jack,

I agree with your insights however the overriding considerations may have more to do with the sensitivies and sensibilities of the intended market audience. The risks involved in attempting such wizzard like stuff may offend and cause more buyer restance than you or I might appreciate.

Ian - You make a very good point. Given the target audience, which might be comprised of wealthy, ageing, Japanese audiophiles who long for the look (and sound) of 1960's American HiFi consoles, I can see why the specific layout, and design choices of the DD66000 make somewhat more logical sense, in that narrow market. It also becomes more clear why JBL will not promote this item outside of Japan, it probably wouldn't sell.

Not because there is no demand for expensive speakers, (has Wilson audio stopped shipping worldwide?), but because the retro-sound of the D66000 probably can't compete with other expensive offerings. Of course, never having heard the DD66000 myself, I could very well be accused of "posterior oration" on the last point. Clearly I'm just looking a few graphs, and pictures of the unit, and guessing as to it's sonic performance.

JBL did what you are expressing with the DMS1 however it was not a notable success story nor a system that was sonically rewarding despite the techncial brillance.

Meridian has an all active digital loudspeaker but I have not heard it demonstrated. I think if JBL were going this route they would do what Meridian has done and package it with self power amps as well.

That is a real leap into the future and I doubt if JBL or the market is ready for that yet.

I'm going to do a full 360degree turn, and drop the suggestion of DSP based EQ and Crossover implementation, it's just a red herring which is deflecting the underlying design questions which I raised earlier. Of course it is entirely possible to implement a serviceable active crossover and simple parametric room (bass) EQ using fully analogue electronics.

Doing the digital thing also takes away some of the skill and romance of the analogue speaker designer and the subtle voicing that is required to create such a system.

A simple example of technically competent, fully analogue implementation of professional quality, bi-amping with room correction, comes readily to hand from JBL themselves.

Please take a moment to review the first page of JBL tech note vol 3 no 2a:

http://www.jblpro.com/LSR/PDF/JBL.tn_v3_2A.pdf (http://www.jblpro.com/LSR/PDF/JBL.tn_v3_2A.pdf)

I'm still curious as to why JBL did not implement *any* of the relatively simple technical features (LSR, RMC) listed on the first page of that document (apart from Hi-Tek drivers, and internal cabinet bracing), in this very expensive Everest system?

Jack Bouska

Mr. Widget

09-12-2006, 10:10 AM

I'm going to do a full 360degree turn, and drop the suggestion of DSP based EQ and Crossover implementation, it's just a red herring which is deflecting the underlying design questions which I raised earlier. Of course it is entirely possible to implement a serviceable active crossover and simple parametric room (bass) EQ using fully analogue electronics.
I think you meant 180°.:D ...but we got your meaning.

I read several of your posts along these lines and while I agree that measurement, testing, and good design practices regarding cabinet diffraction, driver layout and all that are important starting points... it has been my experience that you can have done everything right and end up with a commercial and sonic failure. I realize that virtually none of us have had the opportunity to audition these speakers, but ultimately that is what it's all about. Speculating on how they will perform is really kind of pointless.

Having used many of these components while working on Project May (still in process by the way) I have my own set of questions for the design team, but I trust they have come up with a system that will satisfy their market and be a success. Right now all I can judge for sure is the aesthetic design and it is killer.

As for DSP, low bass etc... in my work on Project May... once we added a DSP (DEQX) and applied significant bass boost to the twin 1500ALs, they produced some of the best bass I have ever heard. Those speakers have a tactile quality that no true sub can match. I think that the buyers of these speakers that want deep bass will have no problem achieving it if they open themselves up to the possibility of jacking up the low end... those woofers will take it and respond with grace.

Widget

Guido

09-12-2006, 04:01 PM

Here are the voltage drives of the Everest network.
The LF1 / LF2 Level switches does not make too much difference. 120 Ohm resistors are out here.

Schematic courtesy of Sgt. Schultz.

Guido

09-12-2006, 04:05 PM

As for DSP, low bass etc... in my work on Project May... once we added a DSP (DEQX) and applied significant bass boost to the twin 1500ALs, they produced some of the best bass I have ever heard. Those speakers have a tactile quality that no true sub can match. I think that the buyers of these speakers that want deep bass will have no problem achieving it if they open themselves up to the possibility of jacking up the low end... those woofers will take it and respond with grace.
Widget

Why not tune the cabs lower as in 4435 design?

Mr. Widget

09-12-2006, 04:33 PM

Why not tune the cabs lower as in 4435 design?I'm sure that they tuned them for the best system Q. I expect they went for the best subjective Q, and not necessarily the theoretically ideal Q.

In Project May with 1500ALs, we did tune them lower... these woofers are 1501ALs- they may have different TS parameters and require a higher tuning... regardless, the 1500ALs and I would seem the 1501ALs do not give uber deep bass without room gain or an electrical boost. The point of my post above was that unlike most woofers that may woof more when they are EQ'd down deep, the 1500ALs sound remarkably good and have tremendous headroom... even at lease breaking SPLs with +9dB at 25Hz the sound was tight, controlled, articulate, snappy, and house shaking.

Widget

Guido

09-13-2006, 01:47 PM

even at lease breaking SPLs with +9dB at 25Hz the sound was tight, controlled, articulate, snappy, and house shaking.
Widget

Oooh, +9dB..... now I understand

Mr. Widget

09-13-2006, 02:01 PM

Oooh, +9dB..... now I understandBut the thing is... they really swallow it up and sound great! Quite unlike any woofer I have ever heard. Absolutely no strain or any notion that they were being pushed.

Widget

Tom Loizeaux

09-13-2006, 07:12 PM

[QUOTE=jack_bouska] I have reviewed the recent posts on the DD66000, and had a look at the technical information on this site, and on the 60th anniversary JBL-Japan site, and I'm embarrassed to say the information raises more questions than it answers. In the hopes that some members of this forum can shed more light on the subject, I would like to ask a few basic questions about the design choices, as follows: ...

Jack,
These kinds of thoughtful posts make us stop and think. Maybe JBL has good answers for these questions. I hope we will get clear answers from them.
I would guess that most of the prospective customers for the Everest D66000 wouldn't even understand your questions. Some here may think you're being too critical and nit pickey about these new speakers, but they ARE being hailed as JBL's "Best" and, at $60,000.00, I think your questions deserve to be carefull answered by JBL.

I have some thoughts on these new speakers, based only on what I've seen of the physical design, which I will post later. Your questions raise issues that most of here would like to hear about. We want to learn what these really are.

Thanks again for you thoughtful and articulate postings.

And thanks to Don for sharing his experiences, and photos with us.

Tom

Ian Mackenzie

09-13-2006, 11:07 PM

The voltage drive of the UHF tweeter is what gets me!!:bouncy:

It would be interesting to hear the tweeter on/off in a blind test.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie

09-13-2006, 11:13 PM

Jack,

I imagine that free of corporate influences Greg Timbers could have come up with something quite different. That is how the L250 started out. But the fact is there are numerous considerations and a corporate framework that such a product has to emerge from as a commercial reality.

Ian

Zilch

09-14-2006, 12:33 AM

O.K., I'll take a stab at Jack's observations:

1, 2, 3: White Paper says they're tuned to 34 Hz. Though I haven't compared the acoustic slopes, that'd be similar to 4430. And the more analagous 4435 is tuned where? Neither of these lack low bass extension. As Rob and Widget have pointed out, Everest II can likely be "bumped" if desired, either with a highpass filter or boundary reinforcement, up to and including corner placement.

4: The White Paper describes the requisite EQ for biamping. The mid/high contouring remains in play when biamped. They can also be biwired with separate amps, apparently.

5: A tilted plane of time-alignment allows the intersection height to be adjusted via toe-in.

6: The woofers are not only asymmetric, but also angled outward slightly, from what I see. I'd expect that the designers were well aware of potential diffraction effects, and reduced them to insignificance. The leather may have something to do with this.

7: I can't speculate as to how whatever standing waves were developed are handled, but I suspect that they are.

8: Jack's too critical about the early reflections. Having some is desireable. See Toole* in the June AES Journal. These are not headphones.

9: The Project Array White Paper cites the desireability of a freestanding horn. I see that in the Everest II. Also, there may be advantages to a sharp termination in this design. Again, the disadvantages are known and the effects measurable; I doubt the designers ignored them.

9.5: Consumers are far more likely to screw up the design performance with active crossovers than to enhance it.

10: Does it matter if there is a "hole" in the reverberant field coming from the floor and ceiling? It seems more important that the upper mids not go there in the first place. Clearly, the horizontal reverberant is less significant in the "typical" listening room. The rules for pro sound reinforcement in large rooms are different and do not necessarily apply or translate into the home. Again, see Toole and also the paper on boxiness and boominess in the same issue.

In general, my reaction is that critique of the design without first hearing it is patently premature. Indeed the question worthy of pursuit may be "How come these sound so damn good despite what I perceive to be design flaws?"

I doubt JBL is ever going to reveal the answers Jack seeks. They reside in the realm of the proprietary "art."

*According to Dickason, Dr. Floyd Toole is Vice President of the Acoustic Engineering Group at Harman International. His Subjective Evaluation R&D Group there "has contributed more to the science of subjective listening than any group I know of in the industry."

I'd guess Toole and Olive's work at Harman significantly influenced the Everest II design. In particular, Dickason cites them as experts on diffraction effects in loudspeakers.

jack_bouska

09-14-2006, 12:39 AM

"I realize that virtually none of us have had the opportunity to audition these speakers, but ultimately that is what it's all about. Speculating on how they will perform is really kind of pointless.- Widget”

Yes, both you and I have yet to savor the experience of auditioning these new Everest’s, however in post #95, Steve Schell reports: "They also sound quite splendid as you might expect, and exceeded my expectations for a horn system with a direct radiator low end".

Now I don't know if Steve and I have the same tastes and standards in audio, but I will pursue the logical flow of this post under the assumption that based on Steve's subjective report, the DD66000's sound at least as good as other expensive loudspeakers on the market.

The alternate assumption (that they might sonically under perform the competition) would lead us all down the "rabbit hole" of asking why JBL is charging so much money for a flawed speaker, etc, and quite frankly, that's *not* a very interesting topic for me. What interests me most, is getting design information. I want to read posts which are full of information on the topic of system design, construction, and implementation, so that I can learn, and improve my own knowledge and skills, with the ultimate aim of better sound in my own living room.

"while I agree that measurement, testing, and good design practices regarding cabinet diffraction, driver layout and all that are important starting points... it has been my experience that you can have done everything right and end up with a commercial and sonic failure. - Widget"

I'll paraphrase this with the axiom: "the devil is in the details", and I couldn't agree more.

And further, if you are implying that a commercial success must start with good transducers (or great ones, as in the case of the Everest), and good design practices, but must also have due care and attention to detail regarding crossover design, response tailoring, and tweaking of total system integration, then I also wholeheartedly agree.
However, if someone were to suggest the opposite, I might be skeptical.

In other words, I don't believe it is possible to start with a mediocre cabinet layout and design (sharp edges, resonant panels and interior, etc), and (even given the best transducers on the planet), to be able to apply enough skill, knowledge and refinement of passive crossover or response tailoring to produce a world class speaker. Good maybe, but not the equal of the best available. No amount of attention to detail can correct all of the problems associated with angle dependant intra-driver delay, angle dependant baffle edge diffraction, or energy storage and delayed release due to interior volume or cabinet wall resonances. Note that I'm not being specific about any particular design mind you, just a blanket statement based on my experience.

So I'll continue with my assumption that the Everest design has some good points, as well as some bad, but that belief only raises the bar one notch higher in relation to the ten questions that I posed in post #101. I have also just read the white paper (posted on another thread in this forum: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12226 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12226) ), and although it address some of my questions, much of what I asked about in post 101 remains a mystery.

Assuming Steve’s assessment is accurate, (that the DD66000's sound good) -AND- if my analytical analysis of the physical design and measurements is, at least partially, valid (DD66000's have some design choices which degrade sonic performance), then (given Steve's comments) that implies one of two possible outcomes:

Either;

1) My analysis (or assumptions upon which they are based) are seriously flawed
-or-
2) JBL design team has applied some very ingenious engineering approaches to overcome the issues which I discussed in post #101

If (1) above is true, that's easy to verify. This is a public forum, populated by knowledgeable enthusiasts, as well as some experts in the field, and my comments in post #101 are open to challenge. It's easy for me to mis-understand a drawing or mis-interpret a graph, or labor under some false assumption about audibility of diffractions, resonances, etc. and any information from this community at large on the subject of the Everest design can only help me learn and do better on the next project. (I have been proved wrong many times in the past)

If (2) above is true, then that's *much* more interesting, implying that the devil in the detail of JBL's implementation must be truly demonic in origin. The questions I raised are some of those that designers have been struggling with for decades, and if JBL has solved them, I want to know how !

So, since no one has yet pointed out where my analysis or assumptions are flawed, I'll concede that JBL must have managed to do what I described in (2) above, which forces me to restate some of my original questions:

- Does anyone know how JBL has managed to make a passive speaker with a F3 of 45Hz sound like it has deep bass? (Possible answer: they expect serious users to apply bass boost, via some means which they do not supply, see comments below.)
- How do they avoid lobeing (due to path length variation with angle) in the horizontal plane in crossover frequency overlap region when the midrange and treble are not in a vertical plane? (Possible partial explanation: the white paper mentions that the LF2 woofers must be placed inboard in the R-L pair; however this mirror image placement is still a compromise)
- How do they overcome cabinet edge diffraction related frequency and temporal anomalies? (No explanation as yet)
- How do they suppress panel resonances, and internal cavity resonances from the large enclosure? (The white paper mentions the back panel is cavity wall construction, so naturally I approve of that approach, however vibrations are still transmitted to the outer panel via the clamped edges of the panel, see pictures of some DIY cavity wall speakers over on the white paper thread)
- How do they manage to use 100degree wide directivity pattern horn, and still avoid (image degrading) early reflections? (No explanation as yet)
- How do they suppress the sound of "horn honk" from a device with such an abrupt horn mouth termination? (No explanation as yet)
- How do they balance the direct and reverberant sound fields given that the cone and horn have an abrupt change in solid angle directivity coverage at the crossover point? (No answer as yet)

Anyone with any thoughts, post your ideas, or send me private email, I’m still curious.

end of part 1
Jack

jack_bouska

09-14-2006, 12:41 AM

Fortunately, the recently posted JBL white paper covers most of the questions that I had about bi-amping, use of analogue and digital xovers, etc, so I'm not worried about those issues anymore. However the white paper lists the parameters for the required crossover at 700 Hz, and states that any modern digital crossover can easily recreate the required curves. I own a couple of Behringers, and have used a friends BSS omnidrive for a few months, and I swear I cant figure out how to configure either of those units to match the JBL crossover parameters. Could the DEQX do them?

As an amateur loudspeaker system designer, over the years I have struggled with implementing solutions to the same set of questions above, keeping tabs on what the various high-end and pro-market companies were producing, and learning what I could from their offerings. In particular, I have learned a great deal from the various tech notes and white papers from JBL and Harman int., so it's no surprise that I am keen to understand more about the JBL system which is described in the Japanese audio press as: "shines JBL highest rank system" (from post #1). If JBL has managed overcome all the design issues that I have raised, I admit that it just looks like magic from my perspective. (As an aside, I was once warned that while it is relatively difficult to conjure up demons, in the event that you do succeed, it's even harder to make them obey your bidding.)

I was 3/4 the way through typing up this post when I noticed that the JBL white paper is available in another thread. That document does illuminate some of the more interesting technical advances, however many of my questions remain. I suppose if I'm patient, someone will post some suggestions as to why JBL chose that specific design topology, and in the end, I'll just have to look around and see if a pair turn up somewhere in London, so that I can have a listen myself.

"Having used many of these components while working on Project May (still in process by the way) I have my own set of questions for the design team, but I trust they have come up with a system that will satisfy their market and be a success. Right now all I can judge for sure is the aesthetic design and it is killer. -Widget"

I have been a lurker on the Project May public forums for a couple of years now, and would like to publicly congratulate the design and implementation team on what (based on my design prejudices) appears to be a better speaker design than the DD66000.

The project may uses MTM layout, with drivers closely packed, narrow front panel width, laminated enclosure construction, semi-triangular horizontal cross section, beveled edges, horn mouth integrated into the front baffle, etc. That short list of project May design decisions goes a long way toward alleviating most of the acoustic issues that I have raised in relation to the DD66000.

In project May; the MTM puts the effective acoustic center of the 1500's at approximately the same position as the horn acoustic center. The vertical layout means that the path length difference between the horn and LF drivers does not vary for any position in the horizontal plane (in the far field) the close packed driver layout reduces excessive lobbing in the vertical plane. The narrow front panel and beveled edges also reduce cabinet edge diffraction problems. While I could quibble about the horn contours, at least the curved (protruding) top and bottom mouth edges are better integrated into the front baffle, which will improve the mouth termination (and reduce horn honk). The semi-triangular horizontal cross section will also help suppress resonance modes, (a triangular cross section cannot support any axial modes, only tangential and oblique resonance modes will be present). The largest dimensioned exterior panels will be of a curved laminated construction, to reduce cabinet vibration. (Curved walls are stiffer than flat panels). The only material suggestion I could offer here would be (if it's not too late) to try the constrained layer damping construction technique, by adding a layer of tar impregnated felt roofing material between each of the layers in the compound panel construction (see: http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Loudspeaker_construction.html#Panel_vibration_damp ing ) The project May cabinets will be large, and the panel dimensions significant, so even small amplitude displacement levels of vibration, and stored energy, in the cabinet walls will be magnified by the large surface area, which is 10-20 times greater than the equivalent driven surface area of the cones. (Of course, if the panels have already been built, forget I ever mentioned this).

So to get the next point across, I'm afraid I might need to revive the car analogy again (advance apologies to those of you who are more interested in speakers than cars, but I'll get back on topic quickly). In the 50's and 60's, cars all looked quite distinct from each other, nowadays they are harder to tell apart from each other. It's possible to argue that the cars of yester-year had more style, flair, and aesthetic value, but then I might also argue that luxury yachts and ballerinas are both also quite beautiful to my eye, but I wouldn’t want my new car to look like ether one of those. Industrial form should follow function.

The reason that most new cars adhere to a topologically modified raindrop shape, is because the physical laws of nature constrain this to be the most aerodynamic efficient exterior form given the speed range of modern automobiles. (F1, and high performance sports cars are built for a higher range of speed, and so they naturally also look different to a family sedan) The point is: that I can appreciate the look of a sports car, or family sedan, because I understand some of the purpose behind the shape. These same reasons help explain why much of the high end loudspeakers share similar design features and layout, (tall, thin, vertical driver arrangement, curved edges, etc) Modern high end designs have mostly settled on these shapes (after years of experimentation) because they are the solutions that work to overcome the broadest range of acoustics problems. All speaker designers have to adhere to the same acoustic wave equation. Acoustics and wave propagation don’t exhibit brand loyalty, or allegiance, so each designer faces the exact same issues.

Now for the candid comments: When Ferrari introduces a new model of super car, it should be instantly recognizable as such. So when JBL also introduces its latest and greatest loudspeaker, I naturally expect the design to be instantly recognizable as significant advancement on the state of the art. I was excited to read this thread, and look at the first pictures posted by Don, and the graphs posted by others. Unfortunately, I did not immediately recognize the design to be a discernable advancement on the state of the art (raw driver components excluded from that remark). For me, the design is not visually appealing, becasue I'm too busy "looking under the skin" so to speak. This is what prompted me to post some questions on the design, in the hope that others could shed some light on features that I might not understand very well.

I suppose I was looking for new, ground breaking technical advancements and features that I could learn from, and perhaps copy or incorporate in my own designs. Again, I get lots of those from the pro side of JBL, but at this point, but so far, I have found little that I would like to emulate or borrow from the Everest design. Borrow ideas from project May, yes, but Everest, unfortunately at this time, no. (So if anyone can point something out to me, I'm all ears).

end of part 2
Jack

jack_bouska

09-14-2006, 12:42 AM

"As for DSP, low bass etc... in my work on Project May... once we added a DSP (DEQX) and applied significant bass boost to the twin 1500ALs, they produced some of the best bass I have ever heard. Those speakers have a tactile quality that no true sub can match. I think that the buyers of these speakers that want deep bass will have no problem achieving it if they open themselves up to the possibility of jacking up the low end... those woofers will take it and respond with grace. - Widget"

Thank you again, Mr Widget, for posting this report, it confirms some of what I suspected about the versatility of the 1500's. I hope you are able to shoehorn a DEQX into the budget for project May (or even a Behringer DCX2496, which is a little cheaper), as I agree that this would improve the performance even further on an already excellent design.

But back to the Everest for a moment, the reason I originally asked about the roll-off slope, port tuning, and bass boost in post #101 was because the design kind of reminded me of a product from a British company called Omen Ra which I saw at the Heathrow hifi show four years ago with the model name: 18:12 ( http://www.omen-ra.com/index.htm ) In an excerpt from the web page on "design considerations" the 18:12's are described as follows:

“start quote: Despite their compact dimensions, the cabinets are loaded with a 600 watt 18" bass driver and a 12" co-axial for the midrange and treble.
The bass loading technique works on the principle that any loudspeaker mounted into a relatively small cabinet, when tuned to a frequency above the resonance of the driver, will attenuate at 12dB/octave, thus providing better transient stability than a 24dB/octave reflex design.
The resulting response shape is dictated by the high Qts of the system, but is simply equalised with DSP to produce a flat response.
The 18:12 is designed to be used in conjunction with the Digital Signal Processor to derive filter order and shape, EQ and delay. Our bass unit may be equalised to be flat in response to below 30Hz, and will take 15dB of boost at 32Hz if required, with no further increase in distortion. The cone excursion would still be no greater than an unequalised sealed box equivalent. The 600 watts power handling, long cone excursion and 97dB efficiency ensure these bass systems will provide unsurpassed low frequency reproduction in almost any venue.” End quote.

Interestingly, the 18:12's also use a cabinet with a semi-circular curved back, (but not cavity wall construction, so as far as I know, it's only me, and JBL who use that technique). The reason I mention the 18:12 is that when I had a long chat with the designer, he indicated that he intentionally set the cabinet size small, then he used the port tuning much lower in frequency, stating that the ports were not included to provide low frequency extension, or flatten the frequency response, but rather to provide a high level of acoustic impedance for the large cone driver, at the frequency just below the range where significant bass boost would be applied by the digital crossovers. My first few questions in post #101 were aimed at trying to understand if JBL was using the same sort of technique with the Everest. The roll off in the Everest is 12dB/octave, and the white paper states the port tuning is 32 Hz, while the -3dB point is up at 45 Hz. This would imply that an end user could safely apply about 1 octave of bass boost, with the prodigious power handling of the 1501's (which do have identical TS parms, as hinted at in the white paper under L-R configurations). Below 35Hz, the dual ports would supply damping to keep the excursion under control. The idea seems to be feasible; given Mr Widgets comments on using bass boost for the project may 1500's

“I think you meant 180°. ...but we got your meaning. – Widget”

Finally I should apologize for my 2-Pi radian “about face” comment. It was not a typo. I heard the same phrase used by a colleague at work a couple of months back, and have been dying to try it myself ever since. Knowing that people generally hear (or read) what they are conditioned to hear, my colleague used the phrase in a similar situation where the conversation was taking a side track on an ancillary point, and wasting time. Although my colleague new he was correct, he wanted to close the issue and move on to more important subjects, so he used the phrase 360 degrees, which caused the scientists and engineers in the meeting to chuckle to themselves, but the bulk of the attendees thought he actually did change his mind. So you are in good company for being sharp enough to spot the intent, but I apologize for the indiscretion. Next time, I’ll run my text through the word processor’s sarcasm filter before I post to the forum. (Although I do feel somewhat vindicated now that Mr. Widget posted the comments on using a DEQX during project May design).

end of part 3
Jack Bouska

jack_bouska

09-14-2006, 01:56 AM

O.K., I'll take a stab at Jack's observations:.

Zilch – thanks, good answers in your post #115– and (as you may have predicted) more questions from me (but briefer this time, perhaps the 10000 character limit on this forum is trying to tell me something!)

1,2,3: I haven’t simulated the woofer section of the 4430 or 4435, but if the TS parms of the drivers are such that the Fs is in the 30hz range, and the Vas is low (a few CuFt) and the Qt of the drivers is north of .3, then the cabinets are probably tuned with a standard Butterworth (q=.7) alignment (or subtle variant), and the port augmented response will be reasonably flat down to cutoff (low 30’s), and fourth order rolloff below that, bass down to the low 30’s will sound just fine. The Everest is different. The 34Hz tuning is lower than the cutoff which is in the high 40’s, the normal drooping response is bolstered by the LF1 response tailoring, hence the 12db/octave final slope on the low end.

Result is a system similar to a closed box, with Q=.7071, and cutoff just below 50Hz. Yes, 2nd order roll off is better than 4th order, but with a cutoff above 45Hz, the system is missing more than an octave of bottom end. This might limit proper representation of timbre for wood instruments, the sensation of sustain, after the impact of drums, and low frequency “hall size” ambience cues.

4: yes, white paper sections on bi-amping and drive voltage curves are very interesting reading.

5: good point, and this would appeal to the audiophile suffering from an incessant “tweak” habit, they could play with the toe in ad-infinitum, with a different setting for each favorite track. I can visualize the masking tape on the floor as I write this. Perhaps putting a 300 pound on industrial strength castors is all part of the master plan. Otherwise, I don’t see many “mirror image pair” loudspeakers in the ultra-high end market these days, I wonder if there is more to the story.

6: I know of five ways to mitigate diffraction effects:
A) soffit mounting, as used in some studio monitor installations
B) radius edges on the cabinet. Radius must equal ¼ wavelength for lowest frequency in passband. (does not apply for true spherical enclosures, which can be any practical radius)
C) felt absorbing rings (very frequency dependant, so difficult to use properly)
D) directivity control using horns or driver arrays (this is the method I use for tweeters)
E) adjusting front baffle dimension to be more compact than the wavelengths of the sound in the radiated band for the driver/enclosure (this is the method I use for cone drivers)

I’m not sure leather would have enough damping to be used for C above, but I’d need to listen/measure with/without to be sure.

7: I don’t know how they damp the standing waves either, the photo’s don’t show any interior treatment, maybe JBL have some proprietary material that deadens everything?

8: My over-criticality is probably an understatement; however you can demonstrate the detrimental effect of early reflections for yourself quite easily. Next time you listen to live or recorded music, cup your hands to your ears. Does that make the spatial localization of sound sources easier, or harder? To test longer time delays, use a couple of large hardcover books, and hold them 6 inches or so, behind your ears, and test various angles, does the sound get better or worse?

Acoustic waves all obey the law of reciprocity, in other words the raypath time delay for early reflections from surfaces at a location near a source (the speakers) can be exactly replicated by an appropriately placed reflector near the receiver (your ears). If you don’t appreciate the sound of the reflections caused by your cupped hands, or the books near your ears, you would be well advised to keep the area around the drivers on your speaker baffle, and near vicinity of your speakers free of reflecting “clutter”.

9: I haven’t read the project array white paper, it sounds very pertinent, can you send me a link

10: Balancing direct and reverberant energy is really tricky, I don’t have the perfect answer yet, so I would be interested in the references you mention. Can you send me links to the papers you mention: (…see Toole and also the paper on boxiness and boominess in the same issue.)

I’m familiar with Sean Olives groundbreaking studies on correlating frequency response with subjective listener evaluation (in mono). This work will surely influence the industry now, and far into the future. The study indicates that direct arrival, and total radiated power are both important in subjective assessment, so why has JBL not published some graphs on total power response of the Everest?

Thanks again for the illuminating post

Jack Bouska

Zilch

09-14-2006, 02:06 AM

Alas, there is tape and marks on my floor, and everything is on wheels. :p

I think you'll have to buy access to the June, 2006 issue of the AES Journal at:

www.aes.org

gtimbers

09-14-2006, 05:15 AM

Somebody estimated 277 Liters. You get an A. We figure the active volume is around 270 l. As with all Japan intended systems, the low end is deliberately lean. The published curve is an anechoic curve which is very hard to interpret with regard to real in-room response. The system has 3 dB more output at 30 Hz than a S9800. It has the tightest and best defined bass reproduction of any JBL, ever. It is not as fast as the 100 dB woofers, but goes much deeper. In multi-channel, the use of a sub is normal and will take care of the issue. In 2-channel, some EQ could easily be used as the woofers have tremendous headroom. We have already sold 4 sets of 3 Everest for front (RCL) channel use in a multi-channel setup. 2 sets in Japan and 2 sets in Europe. We have over 300 systems on order for delivery by the end of this year. It will be a world wide product, but the majority of the sales will be in Japan. The US will be the least as the general clientele here want cheap and small. We would love to build real product for the US, but there aren't enough people who would actually buy high end product to make it a money making venture. We do, however, offer really fine product through our Systhesis dealers. The Everest is no exception. We have a package system of 3 Everest, 4 18" subs and 8 SK2-1000's plus some really nice electronics for a cool $250k.

A note to Mr. "I hate electrolytics". The ones used in the Everest are there for a reason and you can replace them with "gold plated audiophile parts of the day" and the sound won't improve one bit.

A comment regarding the 2441, 375 or any other JBL compression driver. The 476Be is better in every way! It measures better in response, harmonic distortion and decay properties - period. More importantly, it just plain sounds better by a huge margin, unless you like hash, grit and false dynamics due to diaphragm breakup. We will be glad to sell you one for a cool $3500. Unfortunately, the extremely low volume and high labor content make the driver really expensive. The fact that we pay $530 for each raw Be diaphragm doesn't help much either.

One last thing, JBL will be at the CES in January playing the Everest. We will be in a Hilton suite. You are welcome to look us up. We tried to get in the Venetian with the other high end companies, but we were unable to get a room with decent size parameters. So come to thhe Hilton and I will personally show you the difference between Hi-Fi and real music. (The Gods permitting and the room not being too weird)

BillEpstein

09-14-2006, 05:28 AM

The XLH 1812's:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7920/xlh1812006ad2.jpg

All JBL:
2441 to 2-6" 2012's at 250Hz then a 2446 at 1200 and a 2405

350 Lb. cabinet with separate ported enclosures for 2441 and 2012's. Nothin' but film and oil caps and 12ga. coils.

The only thing louder than these in a domestic room might be somebody's wife screaming, "Get those ugly things out of here!".

If you need a sound system for a stadium concert in Beijing you go to XLH.

Ian Mackenzie

09-14-2006, 06:04 AM

Greg,

You are up late, I'll bet you just arrived back.

Thankyou for yet another informative post.

Much appreciated to get to straight from The Man.

The crossovers appear to be in the main enclosure cavity.

Does this dispel another audiophile myth? Perhap there were some practical reasons for the above.

Its just that I find the various marketing techniques rather intriguing particularly when there is an apparent lack of continuity historically.

Ian

JBLnsince1959

09-14-2006, 06:48 AM

Greg,

You are up late, I'll bet you just arrived back.

Thankyou for yet another informative post.

Much appreciated to get to straight from The Man.

Ian

I agree and thank you for time you spent doing the post. I really enjoyed it. I noticed the time you wrote it and it looks very early your time. Either you're an early person or you're doing something like Ian say.

Well, thank you again for the "Straight Talk", it's always a pleasure to read your post.

I do have two questions tho, if you have time...( you can answer any time should you choose)

A note to Mr. "I hate electrolytics". The ones used in the Everest are there for a reason and you can replace them with "gold plated audiophile parts of the day" and the sound won't improve one bit.

In general : as many of us are working on or planning to work to new crossovers I find your reply most interesting. What are the reasons you say this and what caps have you tested this with.. I'll really like to know more as I'm brain-dead on caps.

In particular : would CC'ing a PT800 prove useful and what you suggest for that and the crossover between the 800 and 1400??( answer to this might be better in PS thread should you choose to answer)

anyway, thank you again and hope you enjoyed your trip.

rick

spkrman57

09-14-2006, 07:27 AM

You cleared up some of the questions asked here in the forum.

Regarding the cap issues I believe that different types of caps will make a difference in a crossover circuit, but that does not always mean a improvement.

A lot has to do with what the engineer is doing with the crossover design. In that regard I understand what you are saying.

I hope that sometime in the future I might have a chance to see and hear the D66000's!

Great work from the JBL engineering staff on these!:applaud:

Ron

Titanium Dome

09-14-2006, 09:40 AM

Multi-channel sound through DD66000s.

It's like I'm a prophet: :nutz:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=721370

I kind of mention this in post #28 from three days ago.

Yes, John (HD4D) and I (filecat13) have been over there stirring up the JBL doubters.

Robh3606

09-14-2006, 10:25 AM

Hello Don

Would you have any pictures of the components?? Looking at what you have posted they had the compression driver in pieces including the phase plug, diaphram, the whole magilla. Also with the networks you can see the two LF networks and they appear to be running a mix of NPE and PP. Do you have any close ups on the networks?? I would like to get a closer look if you have them.

Thanks Greg for the post!!

Rob:)

grumpy

09-14-2006, 11:07 AM

boputnam

09-14-2006, 11:54 AM

As with all Japan intended systems, the low end is deliberately lean. I cannot understand how people can assume JBL has not designed things quite intentionally. JBL know this business, top to bottom (no pun intended) and you know your market.

...some EQ could easily be used as the woofers have tremendous headroom. Exactly. And, nice to see JBL are not "afraid" of appropriately applied EQ. We do not live in an anechoic world...

We have already sold 4 sets of 3 Everest for front (RCL) channel use in a multi-channel setup. 2 sets in Japan and 2 sets in Europe. We have over 300 systems on order for delivery by the end of this year. It will be a world wide product...My personal favorite part of this post. Fantastic news. Really.

The US will be the least as the general clientele here want cheap and small. We would love to build real product for the US, but there aren't enough people who would actually buy high end product to make it a money making venture. The culture of small and not seen deserves lousy audio. Those who get it, incorporate proper box volumes for proper sound reproduction into their decor plans. Pity there are so few, and that listening is secondary to decor...

A note to Mr. "I hate electrolytics". The ones used in the Everest are there for a reason and you can replace them with "gold plated audiophile parts of the day" and the sound won't improve one bit.ibid, part one, above...

One last thing, JBL will be at the CES in January playing the Everest. We will be in a Hilton suite. You are welcome to look us up. We tried to get in the Venetian with the other high end companies, but we were unable to get a room with decent size parameters.Acoustic discipline, above the quest for social status. Nice...

So come to the Hilton and I will personally show you the difference between Hi-Fi and real music. (The Gods permitting and the room not being too weird)I think I've got a new entry in my bookings! And maybe this time, what happens in Las Vegas won't stay in Las Vegas! ;)

Robh3606

09-14-2006, 11:54 AM

... and options were given, opportunities provided.

Not sure what more you would ask :confused:

-grumpy

Yes I would have to agree I don't see any of us running down to dealer and actually dropping the cash. We talk a lot but I don't see any buyers including me. At least not for big ticket items like a pair of 9800's. And that after all is what we are talking about.

Rob:)

scott fitlin

09-14-2006, 12:34 PM

Robh3606

09-14-2006, 12:41 PM

Hello Scott

I am not saying none of us spend any money on this stuff. You like the vintage sound the older drivers deliver. Nothing wrong with that!! I would love to be able to drop into a Synthesis dealer and set-up an audition for whatever he has but I would be wasting his time. I don't have that kind of money as you don't for 6 drivers. The funny thing though is if I look at what I have spent in drivers and recones for my next clones I would be well on the way for one of the smaller Array Systems. Once I do the networks and cabinets I would be even closer. So in my case maybe I could swing it but it wouldn't be anywhere near the TOTL Array cost wise and I think that's really the point. Wow are we getting off topic. This is a thread to cellebrate a new statement speaker not to question their marketing stategy.

Rob:)

edgewound

09-14-2006, 01:09 PM

As honest as your statements are, I feel you just told me, and everybody else, that JBL doesnt care about us, here, in your own country, the place that MADE JBL the coveted speakers they were. Although I respect your words, and definitely your knowledge, I dont like what you have said.

:no:

I have a feeling Mr. Timbers doesn't like some of what he's read on this forum. JBL has, in a way, stuck their corporate neck out by allowing us such access to this Tokyo trip. I have to hand it to them for having the guts to give it a try...they've risked either further alienation of the domestic hardcore enthusiast by designing a product primarily for non US consumption , or completely wowed us with such fine technical engineering and design prowess that the brand image will be polished back to a fine luster.

Maybe a little of both has happened. I don't see too many sales of new units happening to forum members that actively post....me included. The DD66000's are way too expensive for me. I'll reserve my opinion on how they sound until I actually hear them though...maybe at CES Jan '07.

I'd like the opportunity to meet Mr. Timbers in person to get a feel for what his energies are like on the whole scenario. He seems like a genuinely nice, generous, talented, professional design engineer that had followed his passion with great success at an iconic American audio company that has been turned into a global brand of a multinational conglomerate. I imagine he feels a degree of frustration with what he's read here, and he's just returned from a whirlwind trip to the other side of the globe and is understandibly fatigued. Hard to keep the friendly face on 24/7 under those grueling conditions.

I bet he's had to endure some difficult financial management decisions with this project. The US market for anything, it seems anymore, is "I want it now and I want it cheap", therefore that's what we get...use it for a little while and throw it away. But look what happens in this forum. Recycling of the great vintage stuff that lasts and lasts as long as parts are available. When or if they dont' supply replacement parts for vintage, a huge revenue stream would go away...this is Harman's middle ground. Harman has been part of that culture-building, via the "bottom-line, shareholders-are-the-ones-that-matter-mentality" of Wallstreet. Meanwhile the middle ground...the high value oriented market is getting killed. Things are either really cheap, or really expensive.

All of Harman's market research probably points to the fact that well made, high value products like the late "L-Series" will probably never see the light of day again. The investment in inventory, marketing, dealers...the whole chain would probably be seen as too high of a risk for the bottom line to get a go-ahead from the accounting departments and selling this stuff on-line, unauditioned, unheard, and really...unseen... is out of the question. You can't survive on decades-past reputation alone.

Greg Timbers' mission on the Everest DD66000 project was to build the finest, cost is no object, statement speaker system that would be profitable... and introduce, unveil, and sell into their most lucrative market that is willing to pay huge sums of money. It looks like a bargain compared to those Avantegards.

If Greg had the authority to do it... and the market made it worthwhile to produce in large enough numbers to keep a value oriented price target...he would love for us to have it.

I hope Greg continues to post...he's a very respected and respectable guy, in a difficult corporate environment. I'd hate to see him alienated by a hostile forum that would second guess him. I'd like to see JBL Consumer treat the US market with respect too.

You think Gina Harman or Paul Bente would like to give us their view?

Ok...sorry for the long dissertation.:o: :)

spkrman57

09-14-2006, 01:36 PM

If JBL/Harmon is willing to share details with us on their statement system we should be grateful and try and limit the negative thoughts.

We were granted some liberties by JBL/Harmon and hope it will continue.

It might not with too much negative attitudes.

Not trying to slight anyone, just don't want to lose this wonderful sharing that has been bestowed upon us!

Ron;)

Ian Mackenzie

09-14-2006, 01:41 PM

The void of affordability and Hi End audio has always been filled by the diy audio guru. Hi End sound does not mean Hi End prices but you do have to spend money and be prepared to work at it.

Japan and Asia in general is a massive diy area. There are numerous jp sites where members show off their horn systems.

Greg has offered to sell the new compression driver and I assume the 1500 AL woofers are available.

boputnam

09-14-2006, 01:43 PM

...I take offense to Greg Timbers comment that the American consumer doesnt buy high end goods. My grab is, there are piles of real hard sales data that support JBL's marketing decision(s). I also imagine JBL would dearly love to sell more of their high-end products here at home, but that the sales data do not yet support that as a successful marketing effort.

That said, they are pitching-up at CES with their finest... :)

Guido

09-14-2006, 01:53 PM

Greg, thank you very much for the insight!

A note to Mr. "I hate electrolytics". The ones used in the Everest are there for a reason and you can replace them with "gold plated audiophile parts of the day" and the sound won't improve one bit.

My forum name is my real name "Guido"
I hate "gold plated audiophile parts" even more than electrolytics and this is known here.

Whenever you find the time please tell us more about your reasons for using especially these elytone caps.

Ian Mackenzie

09-14-2006, 02:04 PM

I think its a catch 22.

The market as a rule buys what its exposed to.

Why do you think its being launched as ground zero?

JBL as a business model needs distribution. They need coverage and dealers who are prepared to put the stuff on the floor and put it on their dealer web pages.

The thing is the sort of franchises that sell the L Studio stuff in the USA most likely are servicing a different side the the consumer market to statement stuff and the other ranges.

ie I can buy the above at Dick Smith and Myers but the more up market stuff is really a specialty dealer distribution thing like Carlton A/V or Len Wallis in Sydney.

The problem then is to sell in those ranges to these specialty dealers. Its very competitive at that level and the stakes are high. These guys already sell Wilson, Focal Utopia, and many other elite brands. Its a case of getting in there and that is more about having a consistent long term marketing plan.

Its all very well to have a % of the total market but unless you have Channel Market Share and that mean coverage in a particular market with committed dealers its unlikely unit sales will result

People do buy the stuff and they do regularly go in on a Saturday to these specialty dealers but if your not there on the floor your not in the market.

edgewound

09-14-2006, 02:08 PM

But, I can tell you I go to the AES, and every time, its been the same thing. They set up static displays, and the JBL reps have attitude. How do you go to an audio show to display your wares and people cant hear the stuff?

That's a real problem. You can't sell what you can't demo. And you can't treat your customers with a bad attitude. That attitude usually comes from the top down.

And you're right Scotty...CES, AES and NAMM shows have all had reps with a distant, arrogant, uninterested, defensive, standoffish attitude....usually because they know nothing about their employers own product...and that's a training and development problem.

Zilch

09-14-2006, 02:09 PM

I dont need an oscilloscope, or TEF analyzer, or CLIO, to know what sounds good.Perhaps not.

But they'll tell you what might sound better, and why.... :thmbsup:

FWIW, I applaud JBL,s efforts, IF they had a pair of speakers in the price range I just said, that "I" loved, I would buy them.Project Array doesn't do it for you, then? :blink:

edgewound

09-14-2006, 02:25 PM

The problem then is to sell in those ranges to these specialty dealers. Its very competitive at that level and the stakes are high. These guys already sell Wilson, Focal Utopia, and many other elite brands. Its a case of getting in there and that is more about having a consistent long term marketing plan.
.

That's a great point, Ian.

I think the financial burden has been raised too high by Harman for the specialty dealer.

Custom install is one thing. But when a dealer is interested in carrying just one or a few lines that interests his clientele, he's forced to buy the whole range...then doesn't buy at all...because they don't want to just "move boxes" and lessen their reputation for high-end...so no dealer's to see the good product. Smaller companies allow a minimal buy-in to get the business, and if they have a good product, more business follows. Big companies see this as too much trouble, and too costly too keep in the database....I see it as one dealer is better than none.

edgewound

09-14-2006, 02:41 PM

BINGO! You win!

Send me your address, Im sending you a Padron 1964 Anniversario Cigar, maduro wrapper. Quite possibly the BEST cigar you`ll ever smoke.

:bouncy:

Hey!!! Cool!! Scotty!!!

What a treat!! I've been on a 1 or 2 a year kick for the past three or so years. Figure it won't do me any harm...it's fun an Magnet3 thinks it's damn sexy.

Of course, I smoke it like Bill Clinton....don't inhale.;) :p

PM on the way.

takenodisk

09-14-2006, 03:24 PM

There's no appropriate words to name theese,how impressive the drivers are!!!!! :applaud: ,one more dream to run after:) . Thanks for ths pics don.

Ian Mackenzie

09-14-2006, 03:35 PM

I have not hard data but my impression is JBL distribution in the States has been inconsistant and patchy from the get go over the years with changes in management and the corporate thing.

If anything JBL is more aggressive in the car subwoofer segment..perhap they see the quick sales there. Sell 100 units of $500 car subs and you got $50K in turnover!

Its probably easier and cheap for the business to do that than sell an Everest and the margins are most likely better. So who wins, the Harman Bean Counters, and then these is the audio baby boomer ............too bad.

Sure I can buy a JBL Ipod, but can I walk in and really hear the stuff nope, no sir.

Anyone with an inheritance looking for a good system would be better served waiting for a JBL 4345 to come up on Ebay.

Rolf

09-14-2006, 03:47 PM

Your right! This is a celebration, but, I take offense to Greg Timbers comment that the American consumer doesnt buy high end goods. Yes we do. They just arent buying what he says is high end.

I have the deepest respect for Mr. Timbers. As far as I know he is responsible for the speakers I use. (4343B). But to say that people in the US and in Europe don't buy equipment, in this case speakers in this price range is not true. H*ll I just spent over US$60.000 on a bloody car! (Yes, cars are expensive in Norway) There must be quite a lot of people in the US/Europe that are capable to bark up this amount of money if they WANT, and if the sound is good enough, and yes, I might be in the position to buy the new Everest, BUT I want to hear it first, and I want to hear them in my own home. I just hope that the Norwegian Importer order a set. In this price range there are a lot of other brands that sounds incredible, just as there is a lot of cars that suits me, but I would never buy a car I never have seen or tried.

Titanium Dome

09-14-2006, 03:57 PM

In the single context of loudspeakers, Greg Timbers wrote that Americans want "cheap and small," and that though JBL'd like to build "real product" for the US, there aren't enough high end buyers for that product for it to be "a money making venture."

I see nothing there that means the American consumer doesn't buy high end goods. I see a statement that JBL/Harman thinks that the American consumers won't buy high end JBL product, which kinda jibes with what Scott wrote: "not what he says is high end" (if you change "he" to "JBL").

If 20% of our LH members are active, that's about 1000 people. Out of those thousand people, maybe 10% post at least once a month, so perhaps that's a 100 people. If those 100 represent the most vocal (certainly) and most active (probably) JBL enthusiasts here, how many have purchased new JBL loudspeaker product in the past couple of years? Perhaps 5–10%? What's the highest end gear that anyone's admitted to purchasing? Studio L Series, Performance Series, Project Array Series? TiK? Maybe some Pro gear like LSRs?

The rest are buying vintage products, parts for vintage products, and DIY parts. That's nice, but it also illustrates Greg's statement. We are not buying high end product. It's not a sin, but it is a rational reason for his statement.

In some other forums I visit, like edmunds.com for example, people usually own what they're talking about. Same for computer platforms, game consoles, projectors, etc. For example, most of the people in a Chrysler's TC by Maserati forum actually own a TC. Most of the people in an X-Box forum own X-Boxes.

Even in other speaker forums, most of the participants own or are going to own their new Swans, Paradigms, Sonus Fabers, or whatever. In this forum, though, most people do not own a contemporary JBL, nor have they heard one. Again, that's no sin, but it demonstrates what an unusual bunch we are.

The few of us who advocate for current product can generate some enthusiastic threads, and some of us have been called "thread whores" for posting about "nonheritage" (read: contemporary) product lines. ("Thread whore" was a high point of recognition for me, and it was done in fun, I think. :rotfl: )

Most people here love the old ways, and that is truly great. This is after all Lansing Heritage. I'd think JBL appreciates the recognition, but it also knows it doesn't make any money to have enthusaists constantly trading in old gear and never buying any of the new. And really, the parts and accessories part of the business is a PITA, as anyone who's ever handled old parts inventory can tell you.

If I were a businessman, I wouldn't spend much time or money, or lose much sleep over whether or not DIY hobbiests and vintage gear enthusiasts liked my products. It'd be a monumental waste of time trying to satisfy such a group or really make any money off them. I'd go where the money and customers are. :spin:

Don McRitchie

09-14-2006, 04:10 PM

Robh3606

09-14-2006, 04:15 PM

Hello Don

Great!! Thanks for posting what you have.

Regards Rob:)

Rolf

09-14-2006, 04:27 PM

If 20% of our LH members are active, that's about 1000 people. Out of those thousand people, maybe 10% post at least once a month, so perhaps that's a 100 people. If those 100 represent the most vocal (certainly) and most active (probably) JBL enthusiasts here, how many have purchased new JBL loudspeaker product in the past couple of years? Perhaps 5–10%? What's the highest end gear that anyone's admitted to purchasing? Studio L Series, Performance Series, Project Array Series? TiK? Maybe some Pro gear like LSRs?

Hi TD.

In the following I mean "hi-end" JBL's.

Have you ever wondered why so few have bought new JBL's in the past 20 years, and why even fewer buy new JBL's now? I believe I know why, and that is an easy answer. They just don't sound good enough compared to other brands, and there is not enough vintage to get the hands on, at least not here in my area.

All the talk of the Arrays ... I think they stink ... in their price range there are so many other brands that sounds so much better,

In my opinion the curve has gone down from about 1985 for JBL, and yes, that include the original Everest, and studio monitors at that time. The last thing JBL made that was really good was the 4343, 4350, and maybe the 4345, but I have never heard the 4345.

That is what people (and I) want ... that sound. Not the Japanese sound with lack of bottom and "screaming" heights.

Bare with me ... at the moment my feelings are high ...

Zilch

09-14-2006, 04:34 PM

Oh NO!!

4430s SUCK?

[I am RUINED!!! :banghead: ]

Rolf

09-14-2006, 04:36 PM

Oh NO!!

4430s SUCK?

[I am RUINED!!! :banghead: ]

No comment at this time Zilch.:biting: Later.:D

scott fitlin

09-14-2006, 04:41 PM

Oh NO!!

4430s SUCK?

[I am RUINED!!! :banghead: ]There, there, sonny, take it easy, everythings gonna be allright. Just come with me, and Ill let you play in the Klipsch room for awhile! The doctor will be right in to see you, your going to be fine.

:duck:

Rolf

09-14-2006, 04:59 PM

There, there, sonny, take it easy, everythings gonna be allright. Just come with me, and Ill let you play in the Klipsch room for awhile! The doctor will be right in to see you, your going to be fine.

:duck:

Seriously fellows ... You have no opinion on this? Until my tomorrow... God night:confused:

edgewound

09-14-2006, 05:01 PM

, how many have purchased new JBL loudspeaker product in the past couple of years? Perhaps 5–10%? What's the highest end gear that anyone's admitted to purchasing? Studio L Series, Performance Series, Project Array Series? TiK? Maybe some Pro gear like LSRs?[/qoute]

Other than the cheap stuff at BB and Fry's, there hasn't been an upper end JBL product line worthy of our money that you could even listen too anywhere, since the early 90's. And if I have to go to a guy like RobPatton for a demo, I'd rather go to the dentist.

Even in other speaker forums, most of the participants own or are going to own their new Swans, Paradigms, Sonus Fabers, or whatever. In this forum, though, most people do not own a contemporary JBL, nor have they heard one. Again, that's no sin, but it demonstrates what an unusual bunch we are.

All these manufacturers were busy courting the more affluent customer when Harman was chasing the bottom line, acquiring companies, and ignoring the more affluent upper and middle class customer. Meanwhile, the more affluent customer got tired of seeing low end speakers with a JBL logo on it, and spent elsewhere.

Most people here love the old ways, and that is truly great.

...but when the loyal customer senses a change for the worse...they will spend elsewhere. The US auto industry has had to learn the hard way from the Japanese. Do you see any similarities here?

If I were a businessman, I wouldn't spend much time or money, or lose much sleep over whether or not DIY hobbiests and vintage gear enthusiasts liked my products. It'd be a monumental waste of time trying to satisfy such a group or really make any money off them. I'd go where the money and customers are. :spin:

Most car buyers have stuck with one brand for decades because of perceived quality, value, prestige. Look what's happened to Oldsmobile and Cadillac. Conversely...look at Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infinity. See any similarities?

The corporation will reap what it sows.

boputnam

09-14-2006, 05:30 PM

...if I have to go to a guy like RobPatton for a demo, I'd rather go to the dentist.:rotfl:

Damned good one, edge!! It does feel just like being there when he surfaces!

boputnam

09-14-2006, 05:33 PM

Of course, I smoke it like Bill Clinton....don't inhale.;) :p Hang on a minute - I heard Clinton had a different cigar style. What was it again...?? :hmm:

scott fitlin

09-14-2006, 05:37 PM

Hang on a minute - I heard Clinton had a different cigar style. What was it again...?? :hmm:Yeah, that was the umm, oh let me see, what was it again?

Oh yeah, the Monica Lewinsky Method of smokeless smoking!

You asked for it, :dont-know :rotfl:

edgewound

09-14-2006, 05:50 PM

Hang on a minute - I heard Clinton had a different cigar style. What was it again...?? :hmm:

Sshhhh!! We can't talk like that here, can we?

But I must admit, it did cross my mind.;) :coolness:

mech986

09-14-2006, 05:53 PM

Mods,

Could we perhaps move the posts on marketing issues to a separate thread. While I agree that it applies to the Everest D66000, maybe it really deserves its own topic thread instead of being intermingled here.

Just a thought.

Regards,

Bart

Chas

09-14-2006, 06:25 PM

My 4 cents worth, at this point:

1. I am very pleased to see a new statement from JBL and frankly, I'm stunned by the design, at first glance. Personally speaking, I'm thrilled everytime something like this is produced and made available, even though I'll never afford them.

2. Who cares what the JBL marketing rational is? The DD66000 is here and it exists. Just like a Ferrari Enzo, it represents a company's, - and no doubt, a group of talented, experienced folk's, view of SOTA (when was the last time you heard that term?). This isn't marketing.com, it's about using JBL stuff and getting the best out of it. Well, it is to me, anyway:bouncy:

3. Stop whining and start learning how to benefit from the ideas put forward, to your own benefit. I have a hunch that this is why JBL has chosen to share this info with us. It's a wonderful gesture by them, IMHO.

4. Now if we could just get cone kits of our favorites, like 2235,2242 and 2245 with the new surround technology, I'd be a happy camper...:p

Titanium Dome

09-14-2006, 06:31 PM

All good points, gents, yet I feel I must put up a symbolic defense at least. ;)

Rolf, take all the time you need my friend.

Zilch, I know I've damned the 4430 with faint praise from time to time, but it is an admirable speaker and an excellent accomplishment in two-way design. I listen to a pair everyday at work, sometimes fully juiced. :rockon1:

Edge, that's pretty darn funny... :rotfl: In some ways, though, we're too low rent here for the demo RP was looking for. :dont-know

Scott, your points are well made.

Bo, :wtf: is wrong with you? :rotfl: No, don't tell me.

Bart, totally agree.

Now, the defense. In the consumer area, there are several fine loudspeakers from the mid '80s through the present. In fact, all my favorites come from this period, including the L250/250Ti evolution, the XPL200, the L5 and L7, and of course the PS1400/PT800. Obviously, I'm a big fan of the four-way and of the tall cabinet and of the LE14H* family.

In fact, putting the XPL200 and L7 down a rung due to the 12" woofers, I'd much rather have an LE14H* based four-way system than just about anything else.

So I will not ever accept the false argument that there were and are no excellent JBL consumer speakers during this era. :scold:

I've heard what Greg Timbers and JBL can do with a two-way and a four-way. Now here comes the DD66000 with a tabula rasa for the designer in advanced two-way (OK 2.5) design. It's an article of faith that it will be superlative, and also that when the same design goal comes for another great four-way speaker, it will spank this big boy in ways that a well-rendered, four-way, direct radiator can in the home environment.

But for now, celebrate the moment of two-way glory.

edgewound

09-14-2006, 06:43 PM

Edge, that's pretty darn funny... :rotfl: In some ways, though, we're too low rent here for the demo RP was looking for. :dont-know

Careful....I resemble that remark.

In fact, putting the XPL200 and L7 down a rung due to the 12" woofers, I'd much rather have an LE14H* based four-way system than just about anything else.

So I will not ever accept the false argument that there were and are no excellent JBL consumer speakers during this era. :scold:

.

I agree that JBL had some fine speakers in this era. I had a showroom and sold upper end speakers during this era....I serviced but wasn't allowed to sell JBL because Circuit City did.

But...the competition was fierce in this market segment and I feel that JBL quit the game rather dig in and up the ante. The bean counters did it, and took the short term, easy way out...it wasn't the engineers. The number crunchers decided to exploit the JBL Logo and loaded boxes with two dollar Audax tweeters all they could.

Hey...but some of those Audax tweeters are horn loaded....like the PT's....ooooooh.

boputnam

09-14-2006, 08:50 PM

Could we perhaps move the posts on marketing issues to a separate thread. While I agree that it applies to the Everest D66000, maybe it really deserves its own topic thread instead of being intermingled here.Hi, Bart...

Interesting thought.

My grab is, marketing is SO integral to the struggle JBL has in keeping it's finest products "alive" (R&D cost, manufacturing decisions, business strategy, etc) it may need to stay here, were members can put forth their views on that, too. The DD66000 is a very important statement from JBL - JBL are standing tall on their legacy, and pushing the envelope to new limits.

As well, remarkably, this thread has input directly from JBL engineering - we don't get much of that. Other forums on pro sound, for example, are frequented by industry who provide valuable insight. Granted, this thread will wander a bit, but the fabric will be interesting...

Just my 2¢

Hoerninger

09-14-2006, 09:17 PM

Compare the pictures, it's what I've always seen!
Btw, JBL is US and not sold out?
They are in the market.(And I would like to see more JBL too.)
____________
Peter

Ducatista47

09-14-2006, 09:20 PM

Well, since Dome anointed us the One Hundred, I am willing to run with it. Not a very homogeneus bunch, to be sure, perhaps "homogenius" instead, and I am probably the least knowledgeable concerning nuts and bolts matters. Give me five years to study and I could probably design a fair crossover; that's where I'm at right now.

Several comments resonate with me. The old stuff/new stuff remarks seem more about preferences than absolute standards, and it does seem to come down to the meter men vs the let me judge for myself folks. Maybe there is some of the wanting to own what we couldn't financially swing in our youth thing, too, but one thing I have learned about the One Hundred is we follow our ears, not our memories. Above all, we listen. If the meter men think the ear men haven't a leg to stand on, remember this. The newer cars are certainly more capable, but no sane person would rather own a 2005 Ferarri over an early sixties GTO. And everyone knows today's Corvette waxes the Stingray in every performance category, especially handling, but the Stingray has a different feel and a different sound. Some of us are going to prefer the Stingray for reasons having nothing to do with nostalga. We will find it more enjoyable to experience here and now. Scotty finds some vintage gear much more enjoyable to hear than SOTA stuff, and you can't argue with that. Me, I'll take any JBL I've ever heard over any "polite" speaker I've ever heard. One should go where the joy is, not where magazines or readouts say to go. If they coincide, that is great. If they don't, that is great too. I personally find the 4345 to be completely in sync with my soul, and I don't have to defend that to anyone. I feel like they are something my higher functions have been searching for all my life. There is no arguing with feelings. Would I like the Everest better if I heard it? Maybe!

Mr. Timbers knows that his latest work is the best sounding ever. But don't count out the "Ferarri GTO" (insert your favorite Vintage JBL or Altec here). It may feel better to some perfectly sane listeners than the much more accurate D66000.

Which brings me to what is disturbing here. Why must preferring something over something else be taken so personally? It shouldn't. I certainly hope Mr. Timbers doesn't think our liking his previous work so much implies any putdown of his latest creations. Some of us are going to prefer some older gear to it, and that does not always imply better or worse. Some of us, having heard the (new) Everest, will begin plotting bank robberies to get it. Both are right, of course. Please also remember that Mr. Timbers designs speakers, not marketing strategy. I really, really hope such a nice man was not hurt by the contentious nature of some of our rhetoric. He has made a career of showering the audio landscape with gifts from heaven, and whether we can afford them or not is worked out by decisions we made, not decisions he made. The only reasonable reaction to what he has done for us would be enormous, everlasting thanks and gratitude.

Clark in Peoria, a better place because of Greg Timbers and JBL (the man and the company).

mech986

09-14-2006, 09:30 PM

Maron Horonzakz

09-15-2006, 05:57 AM

The Everest looks beautiful...But beauty is only skin deep...Form follows function....I will reserve further comments until I hear this system at the CES.;) Then I will see if this is a true Statement speaker. No disrespect to G Timbers.

JBLnsince1959

09-15-2006, 07:45 AM

Please also remember that Mr. Timbers designs speakers, not marketing strategy. I really, really hope such a nice man was not hurt by the contentious nature of some of our rhetoric. He has made a career of showering the audio landscape with gifts from heaven, and whether we can afford them or not is worked out by decisions we made, not decisions he made. The only reasonable reaction to what he has done for us would be enormous, everlasting thanks and gratitude.

Clark in Peoria, a better place because of Greg Timbers and JBL (the man and the company).

As honest as your statements are, I feel you just told me, and everybody else, that JBL doesnt care about us, here, in your own country, the place that MADE JBL the coveted speakers they were. Although I respect your words, and definitely your knowledge, I dont like what you have said.

:no:

I'll add my 2 cents worth...I agree with Clark and respectfully disagee with Scott ( I don't want a war)

..also I've read and reread Mr. Timbers post many times now I don't see anywhere he implys that JBL does NOT care for us here in the US. In fact if we read his words carefully it sounds like he went out of way to let us know that he and JBL do care alot..

We would love to build real product for the US, but there aren't enough people who would actually buy high end product to make it a money making venture. We do, however, offer really fine product through our Systhesis dealers. The Everest is no exception. We have a package system of 3 Everest, 4 18" subs and 8 SK2-1000's plus some really nice electronics for a cool $250k.

One last thing, JBL will be at the CES in January playing the Everest. We will be in a Hilton suite. You are welcome to look us up. We tried to get in the Venetian with the other high end companies, but we were unable to get a room with decent size parameters. So come to thhe Hilton and I will personally show you the difference between Hi-Fi and real music. (The Gods permitting and the room not being too weird)

also, lets look at the what JBL did for us here..
1. the head engineer put a post up and explained many things
2. Don was allowed to go with them to Japan and Doc it
3. Sgt. Schutz and Major Petty were able to get in long enough to give us information and the white papers

So I come away with just the opposite opinion of Scott and think that JBL does care and really went out of their way for us in the US and the forum in general. But that's just me.

as far as what Mr. Timbers says about "not enough people" I believe him but let's take a closer look at what he really said

. The US will be the least as the general clientele here want cheap and small.

Here's he's using the word "GENERAL" meaning average joe. Of course there are very rich people buying stuff( and most of them don't have clue as to what they are buying as long as it cost enough) but the average joe in the US buys small and cheap . That's not something that JBL invented, just go into the stores where the average joe buys.. Take CC for example..6 years ago they have a nice selection of speakers. Here in KC they even had a separate room for their "higher" priced speakers... no more.... ALL types of speakers are smaller and there are far less speakers than before.. It's really sad...also alot of average joes do not buy audio gear for the sound. They buy for other reasons ( size. color, price, wife factor, decor etc)

anyway, I'll end saying that I think JBL and Mr. Timbers DO CARE and went out of their way for us.

Now I have my disagreements with the marketing part of JBL but that belongs in another thread to my way of thinking and anyway, we've been all over that many times before. Also, I've been wanting JBL to offer a line of Audiophile type speakers for a long time and said so, But this thread just isn't the place to go into that ( IMHO)

so let's just party...:bouncy:

Mr. Timbers I would like to except your invitation to the CES even tho it's the very busiest time for my business. I'll do what I can to get away for 36 hours or so. Also, I hope that you will continue to provide posts when you want...

Also, to the forum maybe CES would be a good time for many of us to get together and party JBL style...:bouncy:

alskinner

09-15-2006, 07:58 AM

First all thanks Don and Greg Timbers for sharing information on new JBL developments. Like others I will reserve judgement on the Everest 66000 utill I have the opprotunity to actually hear a set. I would love to have the tranducers to experiment with but they are way out of my budget.

Having said that I know of no other major speaker company that supports us DIYers as well as JBL does. Parts avaliability for a lot of the old drivers and this site is a testament to the lengths that JBL corporate supports us.

Like Scott am a big fan of the 2441, with the right horn and crossover it has IMO one of the most natural sounds that I have encountered.

Like Greg has stated on a previous post on the 4345 in the end it's what pleases you. I am still working after 2 years on my 4345s and won't quit until I am convinced there is no further improvement feasible.

mikebake

09-15-2006, 01:01 PM

Good God, give it a rest, man. Furthermore, on the new Be driver versus 2441, hey, maybe it just means you prefer the driver with more distortion products. No biggie. Whatever sound you like (and I suspect your system sounds quite good) is fine with us.
As for the money, in many venues, $3500 for a mid driver alone is no big deal. In your case, you don't think it would be worth it to find out. I fully understand.

Maron Horonzakz

09-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Like i said lets wait and HEAR ....;) The proof is in the pudding.

Ian Mackenzie

09-15-2006, 01:31 PM

I actual saw the post immediately after it was posted. It was very late/early.

I think Greg wrote it after a quick scan of the thread and felt obligated to at least answer some questions that he perhaps would have preferred to respond to earlier. Some of it was a bit direct but given the hour and his very busy program I can appreciate his reply. We're all human and I've seen a lot stronger posts by some of us under much less demanding circumstances.

Ian

John

09-15-2006, 01:59 PM

Of course, I smoke it like Bill Clinton....don't inhale.;) :p

Yes and G.W. never snorted "COKE":p

scott fitlin

09-15-2006, 02:28 PM

Yes and G.W. never snorted "COKE":pOf course he didnt! It was called " snuff " back then!

:p

John

09-15-2006, 02:48 PM

Hi Scott Why not buy a pair and try them at home? $7000 for a pair of drivers that form the heart of a just released $60,000 SOTA system does not sound that far out of line? :applaud:

What did you pay for a pair of the 4002 TAD,s ??? And can the TADs go out to 40000hz.???:hmm:

By the way I thought that was a nice offer from Greg T. I did not see a put down in it at all.:blink:

johnaec

09-16-2006, 10:46 AM

Still not even a mention of the Everest 66000's I can find at the main JBL site... :( You'd think they'd at least offer them for sale here, small though the market might be. What's to lose??

John

speakerdave

09-16-2006, 11:42 AM

Did GT say they are going to be available through the Synthesis dealers?

David

(Of course, your money is ready, right, John?)

Zilch

09-16-2006, 12:12 PM

Sounds like they're booked through the end of the year with European and Japanese demand.

They may not want to roll it into the U.S. until they have the capacity to deliver here.... :dont-know

Robh3606

09-17-2006, 07:47 AM

If they are going to have the Everest at CES than that's when I would expect to see it up on the site. Sounds like they may be planing a rollout similar to what they did in Japan. Maybe not quite as big but it makes sense to do it in a similar fashion.

Rob:)

MJC

09-17-2006, 08:14 AM

One last thing, JBL will be at the CES in January playing the Everest. We will be in a Hilton suite. You are welcome to look us up. We tried to get in the Venetian with the other high end companies, but we were unable to get a room with decent size parameters. So come to thhe Hilton and I will personally show you the difference between Hi-Fi and real music. (The Gods permitting and the room not being too weird)

That last sentence pretty much sez it all. The DD66000 is the mother of ALL speakers, TOP of the line, everthing else, from ANY speaker company is somewhere below and less than the new Everest.
I'm certainly going to do my best to get to the CES just to hear the Everest.
Thanks Greg, for all your great designs over the years.

Ducatista47

09-17-2006, 10:25 AM

That last sentence pretty much sez it all. The DD66000 is the mother of ALL speakers, TOP of the line, everthing else, from ANY speaker company is somewhere below and less than the new Everest.

I'm pretty sure they would be my favorite speakers, but the "these are not enough money, do you have anything more expensive" crowd read or listen to people who read magazines that say imaging is the end all and do all of high end speakers.

The real question for them, of course, is..."will Francois approve? Does it go with the love seat?" ;) If Everests don't go with the furniture, get new furniture. They come in four finishes, I hope that helps with these morons. I want lots of clueless Americans to buy them so they will be available used years from now, for my kids.

Clark

Thom

09-17-2006, 12:02 PM

There may never be a perfect speaker. It has always seemd to me that there was some spl threshold one had to exceed or large jbl systems sounded sort of like transistor radios, I've guessed it had to do with overcoming the mass of the varying moving componants, but especially the systems with horns and cones can be extreemly difficult to make sound right at very low levels. How often have you seen the sound way up with everybody listening in another room. (the kitchen?) some of that may have to do with the space it takes for some waves to develop. (My level of education doesn't really quallify me to say for sure.) You can be in someones sound room and they will demo some tiny speaker and it will sound beautiful you can hear all kind's of detail but no dynamic range. Without dynamic range you will never mistake memorex for live. You can't fault jbl for chasing the dollar. Back when there was an Avery Fisher and a Saul Marantz or at least soon after there was a Morse Electrophonic who laughed at all of the truth in advertising and conventional means of measurment and they could because while what they sold was junk they sold more of that junk than the entire rest of the industry put together. When JBL became huge and discovered that what they could charge was in no way controled by what they put into the boxes, and besides most of the "quality" in those drivers didn't contribute to sound "quality" they contributed to efficiency, not real important to a lot of people now that you could buy larger than a 5 watt amplifier (Paul Klipsh was still traveling the country saying "what the world really needs is a really good 5 watt amplifier" but by now he was 80 and deaf.) JBL could cheaply build speakers that sounded good but if you lived on 32 acres your neighbor wasn't goiung to come threaten you if you didn't turn your music down and you weren't going to pass them on to your grandchildren. JBL used to have a brochure to help sell against sansui and the lot who werte putting as many as 7 or more drivers in a cabinet and it basicly said would you rather have one really good swiss watch or or several it refered to some nonrevered line can't remember if it was timex or mickey or if they managed to keep it generic. Where I fault JBL is they could have done this mass market thing and still kept a high line or kept the service or kept someome in Pro who catered to audiophiles (has that become a bad word? I was always just a bit too tweeky to be one) When I sold JBL they officially had a 5 year warranty (I think it may have been longer at one time) but I never saw anybody get charged for a repair who hadn't damaged the speaker. I did see them charge a guy something once for some D130's that had just gond "dead" (not burnt out) they said the suspensions were worn out from not being properly loaded. but usualy the speakers would come back free with a note to the effect that JBL speakers do not wear out. What could that have cost them compared to the image it got them. Still Common Hardon had them a long time before they turned them into "just another speaker" It used to be when a potential customer said "what's so special about JBL. You would say. Here Look at this. There literature used to say a JBL speaker will never have a ceramic magnet. When people would ask how many watts how come it doesn't say how many watts we would say (D series) "don't worry about it. If you are in the room with it you won't blow it up." And they had a top end, I got rid of my revox, a lot of people were putting there lp's (ask your parents) on tape to preserve but unless I ran the revox at 15 the hiss made it obvious it was tape and not disk. I read on here about someone bitching about JBL not taking care of a woofer "not gotten through proper channels" Sure jbl was right but unles it was a salvage dump wat could it have cost them compared to thr image. The old JBL would have taken care of it although they were a bit nasty about tracking down the dealer who had transhipped them, unless it was a deller they couldn,t afford to mess with. They were good about giving permission to discount a demo or scratched unit or such, this was after fair trade was no longer legal. you could sell your enventory for what you wanted but they didn'y have to sell you any more. Sorry about the soapbox. I knew JBL went ceramic years ago. I knew that you could buy junk with their name on it. (in fact I've been trying to figure where 033 and 066 tweeters fit in this mess. But I just found out about the d130 being discontinued. Yeh I've been under a rock. Anybody know what frames convert to what speaker. Maybe if I buy land in nevada I can build a low frequency horn next door and power it with this woofer with the 375 magnet. (I'm probably kidding) Anybody know much about old ampex theatre systems?

Ducatista47

09-17-2006, 12:22 PM

Thom, I can't argue with your recollection of history. It seems accurate. I can tell you that my half horn (other half would be cones:)) 4345's sound equally great at low volumes. I think tube amps help there, as they are known for clarity at low output. Maybe it is just this particular design of speaker, I don't know. All I know is I can turn them way down and they are still sweet.

One good thing about ferrite, it never needs a remag. JBL seems to do a good job of engineering around the weaknesses. Alnico must be really expensive these days.

For what it is worth, I think high efficiency is a very good thing and usually involves superior engineering and manufacture as compared to less efficient designs. I imagine that is one reason why Jim Lansing pioneered flat vc winding and miniscule gaps. With tube amps at least, lower power designs sound better than larger amps, all else being equal. I also remember that in the past, solid state amps needed to be at mid level at least to produce good sound. Maybe that drove the perception that lower efficiency in speakers was OK or even desirable.

Clark

Shane Shuster

09-17-2006, 03:12 PM

The newer cars are certainly more capable, but no sane person would rather own a 2005 Ferarri over an early sixties GTO.

You are kidding right? Thats just weird, man. Is this a generation gap or something? Thats like saying most people would take cancer over a common cold.

Ducatista47

09-17-2006, 03:32 PM

Sorry, Shane, that would be a Ferrari GTO. I must have dropped my antecedent right there on the floor. There must be something really special and fun about the GTO Ferrari. I remember when the price of a used one hit twelve million dollars for a while. Being one of the sexiest Italian cars ever doesn't hurt either.

The late Innes Ireland used to kick himself over having turned down three GTO's for something like $1500 each. Last year's racing cars, and he was a driver for Enzo. He said it seemed like money not well spent at the time.

Pure racing cars have a strong appeal to the faithful. My #1 ride of all time would be a Porsche 917. I'd rather have it than an F-86. Impossible on the street, but I can dream.

Addendum: Watch the Steve McQueen movie Le Mans and you will become a fan of the 917 too. Caution on the shunt (wreck) scene. It was a real accident. A real driver lost a real leg in that crash. The Ferrari 512's aren't bad either.

Here is the Ferrari GTO, and the Gulf Porsche 917 (just like in the movie)

Clark in Peoria

Shane Shuster

09-17-2006, 03:44 PM

I thought you meant a Pontiac.:o:

So I hear JBL has a new speaker.

sfellini

09-17-2006, 04:29 PM

The Ferarri 512's arent bad either.

Alas, they were not good enough :(.

Steve (tifoso from way back).

Ducatista47

09-17-2006, 05:02 PM

Alas, they were not good enough :(.

Steve (tifoso from way back).
Don't feel bad. The 917 became, after a troubled and deadly genesis, the one racing car in history that nothing, I mean nothing, could beat. Ferrari has a much headier and heavier mystique than any other brand will ever muster. Come on, it's Italian! That would be the ultimate compliment!

The real question is, what looks cooler, a 512LM or a D66000? A tie, says I. Hats off to Dan Ashcraft and whoever else crafted the look.

Clark

You really don't want to see this in your rear window (but the Everest strikes me like this):

JonathanKeehn

09-17-2006, 05:39 PM

How about the Ferrari FXX vs the D66000? Both are extreme examples of engineering excellence.

MJC

09-17-2006, 08:39 PM

(in fact I've been trying to figure where 033 and 066 tweeters fit in this mess

The 066 fit perfectly in the L212 and 4313, thank you very much.
And Please, the next time you want to right a long post try using more than one paragraph. Makes it easier to read.

And for the last few posters, since when did this thread become a car thread?

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 12:09 AM

What a weird thread... I have been out of town for a few days and just got back to see this...

I can't help but think that many of the posters that are posting what seem to be negative comments about JBL for doing this or that, or for not doing something are posting here because they are disappointed that they can't afford a $60K speaker system...

Look guys, these are the best JBLs that have ever been built for domestic use... period. They may or may not be what you would want in your home... personal taste, performance requirements, and size all come into play here... but from an objective perspective and the subjective perspective of the design team... they are the best.... PERIOD!

They are not Focal's anniversary speakers, they are not Wilson Audio's anniversary speakers, they are not the Klipsch anniversary speakers... these are JBLs. I personally can not begin to afford them, and I am OK with that... I can't afford a Ferrari BB512 Berlinetta Boxer either, but I can appreciate them both.

I really can't understand why so many have taken it upon themselves to dump on JBL and these speakers that are meant to be a celebration. Early on I said that they weren't a real product... what I meant by that was that they were not something that would be produced in any quantity... I didn't meant it in a disparaging way... the Paragon was also so expensive and large in it's day that it wasn't made in any large numbers either... at least not during any particular year... but they made them for decades. I doubt that the JBL of today will build the DD66000 for decades, but the fact that they built them at all is reason to celebrate.

Scotty... I said that you would probably not like the new 476Be drivers... I said that because you are so fond of the particular characteristics of the 2441s... that is fine. You should just continue to enjoy the 2441s... hopefully JBL will continue to support these legacy drivers. Personally I really like the 2441s too, but I prefer the TAD 4001s and TAD 4003s. I would assume that I would also like the 476Bes... it is quite possible that I would like the 476Bes even more than the relatively affordable $2,700ea. TD-4003

Jack... it seems you have decided to dislike this speaker without giving it a listen.... I am guessing that through your experience you have developed a set of rules that you believe to be necessary to achieve the ideal sound. You really focus on the driver symmetry, driver alignment, and the diffraction caused by sharp edges. Well your speakers have driver symmetry and no sharp edges and that's fine... you have obviously spent a great deal of time perfecting them for your needs and I expect they are quite good as well, but I am also sure that like any speaker they won't satisfy every listener... there are so many loudspeakers out there because there are so many listeners that appreciate different flavors.

You also focused on deep bass... and in the case of the DD66000, it's inherent lack of deep bass without some coaxing. For many listeners it isn't of paramount concern. For me a very uncolored sound is paramount, followed by dynamics, and imaging. As has been mentioned, there is no perfect speaker, but some get closer than others. I have heard speakers from every design school that have been remarkably good. I have heard speakers that I was certain would sound terrible based on my own self imposed rules and have been shown that I was wrong. The bottom line is there is no substitute for a thorough audition.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie

09-18-2006, 01:25 AM

Rolf

09-18-2006, 01:33 AM

The DD66000 is the mother of ALL speakers, TOP of the line, everthing else, from ANY speaker company is somewhere below and less than the new Everest.

How do you know that? Have you heard them?:dont-know :blink:

Rolf

09-18-2006, 02:20 AM

What a weird thread... I have been out of town for a few days and just got back to see this...

I can't help but think that many of the posters that are posting what seem to be negative comments about JBL for doing this or that, or for not doing something are posting here because they are disappointed that they can't afford a $60K speaker system...

Hi Widget. I don't see it negative. What I see is that many are disappointed that JBL did not show the DD66000 in the US first. I don't see that as a problem. How many times has JBL introduced a top of the line speaker in Europe? I wont even speak of how many times in my part of the world. There are also disappointment that the speaker is made for the far east. This is partly confirmed by Greg Timbers in his post in this thread. AND ... I believe that there are a lot of people in the US and in Europe that have the money to buy this speaker.

Look guys, these are the best JBLs that have ever been built for domestic use... period. They may or may not be what you would want in your home... personal taste, performance requirements, and size all come into play here... but from an objective perspective and the subjective perspective of the design team... they are the best.... PERIOD!

How the h#ll do you know that?

They are not Focal's anniversary speakers, they are not Wilson Audio's anniversary speakers, they are not the Klipsch anniversary speakers... these are JBLs. I personally can not begin to afford them, and I am OK with that... I can't afford a Ferrari BB512 Berlinetta Boxer either, but I can appreciate them both.

Who can't .....

I really can't understand why so many have taken it upon themselves to dump on JBL and these speakers that are meant to be a celebration. Early on I said that they weren't a real product... what I meant by that was that they were not something that would be produced in any quantity... I didn't meant it in a disparaging way... the Paragon was also so expensive and large in it's day that it wasn't made in any large numbers either... at least not during any particular year... but they made them for decades. I doubt that the JBL of today will build the DD66000 for decades, but the fact that they built them at all is reason to celebrate.

I have been waiting to see (and hopefully hear) what JBL was putting out for the 60th anniversary. So far I cannot "oh no" or celebrate simply because I have not seen or heard them. On the pictures they look fantastic for my taste.

As for your comments of the Paragon, it was affordable for a lot more people in the time of production. (Still is affordable on the used marked) What has happened with the hi-end prices the last 15 years is a discussion, but I believe the word "greedy" is one that can be used.

Yes Widget, I agree with you that in that we probably wont see the Everest made in 20 years, like the Paragon was. Do you know why not?

I do not comment on the rest of your thread because you comments is made for Scott and Jack.

Shane Shuster

09-18-2006, 02:23 AM

And for the last few posters, since when did this thread become a car thread?
Maybe they wanted to look at a ultimate product that is actually an ultimate product?

Maron Horonzakz

09-18-2006, 06:16 AM

Thom sounds like a one man lynch mob without hearing the Everest.;)

speakerdave

09-18-2006, 07:06 AM

At this late date I should no longer be surprised, but it does continually amaze me how little it matters when someone who knows what he is talking about and should be recognized as knowing what he is talking about comes on and posts. It doesn't seem to have any effect on the flow of opinion, self-justification and irrelevance in disregard of the facts.

On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to try to understand what is energizing all this noise. It seems to be the case that the joy in celebrating the history of the JBL we all love is for many LH members outweighed be the feeling that the icon of that celebration signifies that we, and the rest of the common folk, are left out of consideration. The pragmatic here includes the fact that many of us are buying old JBL stuff we could not afford in the day and we are getting a lot of satisfaction over the idea that if it is not as good as Mr. Wilson's it's damn good anyway. And we are grateful that JBL still makes cones and diaphragms for it. But the new Everest is telling us that history will repeat itself, and there is nothing we can do about it.

That sticks in the craw of your average American working-guy-with-a-table saw JBL nut (and some from other places too).

OK so maybe we're showing a little lack in the generosity of heart it takes to overlook our own selves for a minute, and we should be scored for that. But I'm seeing denial in some quarters that along with being a statement about JBL engineering and art, the new Everest is also a political statement, and introducing it in Japan is a political statement as well as a marketing decision. There are historical reasons that JBL can find a market in Europe and Japan for the upscale models, having to do with American faux snobbery based in part on the way JBL has conducted itself in business. But it's also true that in the once feudal societies of Japan and Europe the people are more accustomed to seeing the nobility make off with the best. In this country we are not practiced in taking care of our wealthy and privileged. We are not yet feting them in the style to which they would like to become accustomed, though under the guidance of the present administration great progress has been made.

Most of the LH people don't feel like we have time to wait for the trickle down from this project, so, oddly, we don't feel as though something has been added to our JBL experience--we feel like something has been taken back.

From our point of view perhaps it would have been better for JBL to celebrate its 60th anniversary with a product for the people--a domestication of its prowess in professional speakers within reach of people with regular incomes. After all, it's not the Paragons what have enabled JBL's survival as much as the L100 accident. But I'm thinking more of the marketing of components with enclosure help as we had in the 50's, 60's and 70's. I'm even thinking back to the days when JBL offered the Hartsfield cabinet with the D208 and then outlined an upgrade path. It may not have worked very well, but it was a compassionate gesture and gave the common folk the feeling they were included.

David

Ian Mackenzie

09-18-2006, 07:40 AM

David,

Well thought out. I must print it for my audio history scrap book.

I can't say I disagree. Perhaps JBL will come out with a counter measure like post 192. I really don't think its anyones responsibility to think any different nor is it a matter for moderation.

This is not the first marketing stuff-up for JBL or for Don for that matter!

As I recall there was a similar dilema with the sharing of the what was Mike's JBL project for Don that quickly become project May when Don laid eyes on it. Because of the exclusivity and cost of the new JBL drivers for project May a watered down version was considered for a time as a diy alternative to team members who wished to participate using more readily available and affordable JBL drivers.

Perhaps this approach deserves some thought here under the circumstances. The basis of the design has alot of merit, I like its simplicity and purity. Someone might wish to open a DIY thread and survey the interest in developing a viable kit.

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 08:43 AM

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 08:44 AM

"And for the last few posters, since when did this thread become a car thread?"-MJC

Maybe they wanted to look at a ultimate product that is actually an ultimate product?Shane, that is a real mean spirited post. You and I have no idea how these speakers will actually perform, but from any objective perspective a loudspeaker that is built like this with this level of attention to detail is absolutely an ultimate product. If you plop the Focal woofers that Dave Wilson uses in his $135K Alexandria speakers down on the table next to the pair of 1501ALs from the DD66000 it is obvious that the engineering and design of the JBLs outclass the Focals. If you prefer red paint and chromed top and back plates to a massive alnico motor structure using JBL's SFG magnet circuit with flux stabilization rings and JBL's patented anti compression gap cooling that's fine, but there is no way you can say that the Focals are more ultimate.

You and I may like the sound of the Wilsons more, we may not... only listening to them will tell us that. I would certainly prefer to look at the JBLs and have them in my house... those painted plastic boxes that Dave Wilson sells do sound great, but if I had them they would be hidden behind a scrim. They are butt ugly in my opinion.

Widget

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 08:44 AM

"Look guys, these are the best JBLs that have ever been built for domestic use... period. They may or may not be what you would want in your home... personal taste, performance requirements, and size all come into play here... but from an objective perspective and the subjective perspective of the design team... they are the best.... PERIOD!"-Mr. Widget

How the h#ll do you know that?Because GTimbers has said so...
It has the tightest and best defined bass reproduction of any JBL, ever.

A comment regarding the 2441, 375 or any other JBL compression driver. The 476Be is better in every way! It measures better in response, harmonic distortion and decay properties - period. More importantly, it just plain sounds better by a huge margin, unless you like hash, grit and false dynamics due to diaphragm breakup.I didn't say it is the best loudspeaker ever made... I said it was the best JBL. I am taking Greg's word for it. He knows JBL.

Widget

mikebake

09-18-2006, 09:09 AM

They should have done something for ther U.S. market, that is all I am saying!
We can assume you are done, then?

edgewound

09-18-2006, 09:27 AM

Your whole post is excellent! I think your analysis is probably correct though I still find this thread to be weird. I certainly expect that JBL's investment in these speakers will prove to have been a good one. A handful of people on some fan site screaming into the wind about nonsense has nothing to do with JBL's market.

Widget

Yes...Dave's post is indeed a very good and pragmatic analysis. I think most JBL devotees are insulted that JBL has produced a Commemorative product that they know will somehow not appeal to the US market, yet make it a global product sold here... and have somehow managed to keep out of financial reach to those of us that lusted over JBL in our youth by saying, "...someday.." Well...what a tease....someday will still never come even though we make decent money.

In a way...it's cruel...and this PR disaster that Ian pointed out, is again JBL marketing's own doing.

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 09:31 AM

In a way...it's cruel...and this PR disaster that Ian pointed out, is again JBL marketing's own doing.PR Disaster? Based on what?

Widget

scott fitlin

09-18-2006, 09:33 AM

Actually, there is no PR disaster. When they go to the CES, 99.9% of the people attending that show, have never read this forum, nor would they care.

The opinions formed at that show will be based on whatever JBL has to show.

edgewound

09-18-2006, 09:38 AM

PR Disaster? Based on what?

Widget

There's a palpable sentiment that the home market has been ignored. Would you call that a PR success? I wouldn't....not in this forum, anyway.

Granted...it looks to be a stunning product, and that's great. But it never was intended for the US market...that's in a way, insulting.

spkrman57

09-18-2006, 09:49 AM

I see a lot of comments that JBL left the US customers in the dust.

Well, Project array systems were available in the states(hard to get I know, but bought by some on this forum).

There is probably less than 5 members of this forum who could afford the D66000's, but a flagship model was not designed and engineered for the masses.

A lot of technology from this model will eventually trickly down to what we can afford.

We should be appreciative the info is shared on the Everest project!

Ron;)

Don McRitchie

09-18-2006, 09:49 AM

It is interesting but people are people and its not the first time PR , not the product has back fired on the Brand in a global market. The message for the target audience does not always win the hearts and minds of brand followers in other markets.

Despite whether publisizing the Everest release in Japan on the Lansing Forums was meant to raise the profile of the Lansing Heritage Site or not, its become a PR disaster here.

Unfortunately the launch and the communications has alienated to some extent the true blue Lansing Veterans and does little to relate what the product should really mean to them. *

There is no association and they feel forgotten and left out and it was not what they expected.*

There was no pre-positioning communications of the release to the forum audience. Hopefully JBL will demonstrate more empathy as time marches on.

The degree of self importance here is really stunning. If you actually go and tally the individuals who have expressed an opinion on Everest in this thread, you will find that the majority recognize it for what it is - a statement product that embodies the legacy of the company and builds on it to produce the highest expression of their technology and skill. While those that understood congatulated JBL, made their point and moved on, the dissenters have hijacked this thread in what is becoming a ridiculous crusade to convert everyone to their isolated worldview. For example, we have numerous individuals that have never bought anything new from JBL in their lives complaining that the statement speaker wasn't designed for them. Of course it wasn't. By nature, a statement product is targeted at the highest level of the market, and in its intended field, Everest has exceeded expectations in both press reaction and orders.

I am particularly incensed by the accusation that JBL has not reached out to this website and its members. Our site has had unprecedented access to both the development and unveiling of this system. What other audio company has invited a fan site to be part of their official delegation to an overseas product launch? What other audio company has their chief designer giving input to a public forum and providing detailed internal documentation. Given the current crusade by the few dissenters, I don't know how much longer that will last.

I see no marketing or PR disaster, only a deluded expression of self importance from a handful of people that are largely not customers of JBL products (at least not new products). Let me try and put this in perspective. We only have around 5000 people that have shown enough interest in JBL products to have registered to join the forum. Of that, only a few hundred are regular posters. Out of that, a small handful want JBL to build their marketing strategy just around them. Even within that group, there is no uniformity on exactly what that strategy should be. I am absolutely dumbfounded that this position is expected to be taken seriously by anyone, let alone JBL.

Robh3606

09-18-2006, 10:24 AM

Hello Don

Well said

Rob:)

Shane Shuster

09-18-2006, 10:45 AM

Shane, that is a real mean spirited post. You and I have no idea how these speakers will actually perform, but from any objective perspective a loudspeaker that is built like this with this level of attention to detail is absolutely an ultimate product.
Widget

I didn't mean to make anyone mad. To me an ultimate speaker can do low bass without help. I don't expect JBL to change statagy based on what I think. I have bought brand new JBL speakers over the last 2 years. I'm not old enough to have JBL nostalgia, so the product has to stand up for itself. I disagree with you on the objective part being ultimate but I'm not the target audience.

JBL has made an excellent speaker for the asian market.

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 10:56 AM

To me an ultimate speaker can do low bass without help.If VLF is high on your list of criteria for an ultimate speaker and you refuse to use external EQ, you need to look elsewhere... that said, off the top of my head, I can't think of any current mega speaker that will produce extremely loud VLF without a dedicated sub. None of them are designed to reproduce extremely low information at high SPLs. That is typically the domain of HT and pro audio... and in both cases a dedicated sub or several dedicated subs are employed.

I disagree with you on the objective part being ultimate but I'm not the target audience.
What I was talking about was build quality and technology and not performance... at this level performance is purely subjective... there are $100K systems that measure far worse than $10K systems and yet they have loyal followings and get great reviews.

JBL has made an excellent speaker for the asian market.Yeah... small homes need large speakers? Pardon the sarcasm... but are you basing that statement on the lack of deep bass? Worldwide there are many successful high end speakers that have limited deep bass... despite the Asian market comments... I am sure that JBL traded the deep bass off for a better quality of sound higher up in the frequency range. They could have used heavier cones and achieved very powerful deep bass, but it would sacrifice detail resolution, articulation, and a sense of speed.

Widget

scott fitlin

09-18-2006, 11:05 AM

This I agree with, I actually would like to hear the Everest and its deliberately leaner, more articulate bottom. I think too much emphasis is placed on VLF these days, at the expense of definition, clarity, and transient reponse. This description they gave makes me think of speakers I know I do like, and they all have a leaner sounding bottom, but, very clear, very good defintion.

Widget, you know I have said this to you a 1000 times.

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 11:09 AM

Widget, you know I have said this to you a 1000 times.Was it only 1000? :applaud:

Widget

scott fitlin

09-18-2006, 11:14 AM

Was it only 1000? :applaud:

WidgetI dont know, maybe it has been more! I seem to very vocal about what I like, now dont I!

I am booking myself a trip to the 2007 January CES show. I will hear the Everest.

Besides, Vegas is so much fun anyway!

merlin

09-18-2006, 11:26 AM

Well I have to say I never really get he time to post over here - sadly hifi has to take a back seat these days.

Having said that I do find some of the sentiments here quite bizarre. OK I'm from England, but I was so happy to see the Everest that all I could think of was sending Greg a big thank you via email.

I'm even planning a trip to Tokyo for the hifi show next month to hear them. I currently live with a Japanese market JBL, the 4338- modified with 1500al. You guys banging on about lack of bottom end and extension are frankly nuts. These things rock big time. Far more than any of the floppy sounding, booming bling fi currently being spat out with increasingly vulgar price tags by the likes of Wilson, Avalon and Vandersteen.

I can only imagine what the bottom end of the Everest is like but currently owning about half of it, I get a smile every time the though pops into my head. And I thank Greg for that. He's delivered a speaker to aspire to. A product that aestetically both breaks new ground and has the aura of a beloved classic all at the same time. And when it comes to style, we Europeans recognise it when we see it.

So long live Greg and the JBL design team - the passion lives on.

Thom

09-18-2006, 11:30 AM

Hey, it was really late, I'm pretty new to this and probably haven't exactly figured out exactly where it's appropriate to express what. I didn't mean to knock a new product I haven't even seen. I won't even go into how I got to where I'm at now but if JBL has produced something that sounds more real than real, or maybe just real, I don't care where they market it I think it's awsome, but to tell you the truth I was never nuts for JBL because I'm a cheerleader, I just liked the stuff because it was better. I'd be excited for anyone who had built the best speaker, and was in the pressent. I'm not here to slam any new product that I'm ignorant of, and if you think that this means JBL is on the "right track" I hope your'e right.

JBLnsince1959

09-18-2006, 11:31 AM

The opinions formed at that show will be based on whatever JBL has to show.

well, that's more than we can say for a handful of people on this forum who have judged the speakers NOT by listening to them but because....

1. They were designed for a Japanese market ( but then so were the K2's and other models for over 16 years)
2. because they didn't like JBL's marketing of the last 10 to 15 years
3. Believe the price is too high
and other reasons.

Personally, what part of "Statement Speaker" do people not understand? Since when are Statements speakers suppose to be affordable ? If JBL's Statement speakers WERE affordable then wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

you know it seems like JBL can't win here. If they make a Statement top of line speaker, some people are upset because the average joe can't afford them. If JBL makes a great speaker that the average joe can afford ( Studio L's etc) then people put them down as being cheap. If JBL design's the speakers for their most lucrative market and releases them in that country people get upset because it wasn't done where they live.

and what is this about people being upset about very low bass? don't almost all of us have subs for our speakers already? I don't see people putting their own speakers down for this.... Also, I don't see negative posts about the K2's yet they followed the same pattern and were also designed for the Japanese market.

Good Grief Charlie Brown....

scott fitlin

09-18-2006, 11:34 AM

I never judged the Everest sound!

JBLnsince1959

09-18-2006, 12:06 PM

Scott... I wasn't picking on you...sorry if it came across that way....it was meant to be more tongue in cheek than anything....

Are you serious about booking a flight? I think it would be a great time for the LHF gang to get together. Really, what better place than L.V. to party and a chance to listen to the DD66000?

DavidF

09-18-2006, 12:25 PM

I came into reading about the Everest 66000 with mild interest. I anticipated that JBL would design a statement product in the mold of many such statement products outside of JBL in the past. That is, a design or prototype not intended to be produced much less mass-marketed (a la the Detroit Auto Show). A product I could read about but would have very little impact to me, personally. What I was more interested in is the design and technology used that may, over time, be incorporated into the product line and some day trickle down into something I might own and enjoy. This is as-it-is with many “statement” products.

When Don shared with us his invitation to be included on the inside at the company’s world preview in Tokyo, my interest level increased significantly. Not for the product in terms of what it meant to me, but in terms of what it meant to the company. The fact that the initial preview was in Tokyo rather than Northridge did not even come to me as an issue. I was simply pleased, and yes excited, that JBL thought to include you and I as participants in this forum.

As mentioned above, many statement products are purposely limited in production, if produced at all. The aura of exclusivity commands a higher price over all concerns of value in such matters. But there has to be some cache for the brand name to begin. We all recognize this behavior among ourselves. A lot of that cache comes from performance. Some also comes through legacy, both of which JBL continues to balance under pressures to sell product in competitive markets. Perhaps Japan and that region will pay more for exclusivity than in other markets. If JBL intends to actually sell the Project Everest why not show it first in Tokyo? JBL is a business first, not a caretaker of posterity.

When I looked at the Everest 66000 (how did they arrive at that name?) I quickly saw much of the legacy of the Lansing influence. The simplicity of a two-way (OK, augmented 2-way) taken to the ultimate refinement. The priorities of the JBL legacy design still hold forth in this, their latest refinement- dynamics, realism, efficiency, and accuracy.

Glad to know they are still having fun and making wonderful products.

DavidF

Don McRitchie

09-18-2006, 12:30 PM

Here's some perspective. In my last post I said that the majority of people posting on this thread reacted positively to Everest and that the thread had been hijacked by a few dissenters. I didn't realize how lopsided it was until I went back and actually counted. Over 30 individuals posted overt compliments or positive reactions in this thread alone. Exactly eight have posted negatively, and continue to do so, to the point that they are dominating the discussion on this thread.

Thus, the assertions of a PR disaster and marketing blunder are the result of exactly eight people being disillusioned. However, these eight disillusioned people are tarring the entire site with the implication that there is a backlash from the readership at large with absolutely no evidence in their favor and the vast majority of documented opinions supporting the opposite view.

Therefore, my advice is to the dissenters is to back off. Your point has been made. I have no intention of trying to change your opinion but I will not stand by while the entire site gets dragged down with divisiveness and rancor from a small minority that wants to shout the loudest.

edgewound

09-18-2006, 12:31 PM

On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to try to understand what is energizing all this noise. It seems to be the case that the joy in celebrating the history of the JBL we all love is for many LH members outweighed be the feeling that the icon of that celebration signifies that we, and the rest of the common folk, are left out of consideration. The pragmatic here includes the fact that many of us are buying old JBL stuff we could not afford in the day and we are getting a lot of satisfaction over the idea that if it is not as good as Mr. Wilson's it's damn good anyway. And we are grateful that JBL still makes cones and diaphragms for it. But the new Everest is telling us that history will repeat itself, and there is nothing we can do about it.

This portion of a post by SpeakerDave, I think, has said it best.

Yes...I'm guilty of foisting some negativity on this thread. Yes...I'm guilty of defending Greg Timbers and some of the Corporation's business practices in this thread.

My apologies to Don McRitchie if you've been put off or offended by any of my negative sounding contributions...I've very much appreciated and enjoyed your coverage of the Japan launch. You made me wish I was there, too.

I look forward to hearing Everest at CES. It's a beautiful piece that pictures probably don't do justice. I can less afford these now than I could L300's 25 years ago at $1500.00 ea. In 1986 the Everest DD55000 was priced at $1000.00ea, in 1987 it was $4,950.00ea. The new Everest DD66000 is seemingly priced at $30,000.00ea.

How JBL Consumer conducts itself in the marketplace is their business. I've only stated my opinions that I have with experience of dealing with Harman Consumer and watching what has happened domestically for the last two decades.

Some people will have nothing but praise for this latest design. Others will have less than flattering things to say. This is, after all, a public forum isn't it?

Let's face it. By JBL's pricing strategy demonstrated by the product pricing history above means they have chosen to market primarily to customers that are willing to spend huge sums of money for a pair of speakers that equals roughly a year's worth of US middle class income.
I don't see how the cost of producing an Everest in 1986 increased enough to warrant raising the retail price by a factor of five in 1987. Even the executives at JBL stated their best, must have speakers in 1991 was the 250ti Limited edition at $2,499.00 ea.

Some opinions stated here are merely an expression of frustration that we can't get JBL's best, new...and were clearly, expressly designed for a foreign market. Even trying to find out where Array Series are on display is just too much trouble.

The day that we aren't able to express our collective opinions, positive and negative....and it's all been pretty civil...is a sad day indeed.

Fred Sanford

09-18-2006, 12:57 PM

Honestly, the very first thing that I thought of after reading Mr Timbers' post was that funny little button in the top right corner of every page on this forum.

What a resource! So much of what is discussed is outside of my financial range, and outside of my level of understanding as far as the science and technology goes...yet here I am, openly invited to share and grow in the knowledge and discovery. For free, if I want.

A sincere thanks to all involved for their generous contributions, I'll now go and make my own with that funny little button.

je

Titanium Dome

09-18-2006, 12:58 PM

Who changed this thread from D66000 to DD66000: THANK YOU! :applaud:

Don McRitchie

09-18-2006, 01:04 PM

The day that we aren't able to express our collective opinions, positive and negative....and it's all been pretty civil...is a sad day indeed.

Whose opinion has gone unexpressed? Whose opinion has been censored? My only point is that we are hearing the same opinions (and the are just that - opinions not fact) from a small vocal minority over and over again. As should be obvious, no one's opposing views have been changed by this constant repetition to the point that it has just devolved into noise. For now, I would just like to see the noise stop of its own accord.

scott fitlin

09-18-2006, 01:04 PM

Yes...I'm guilty of foisting some negativity on this thread.

My apologies to Don McRitchie if you've been put off or offended by any of my negative sounding contributions...I've very much appreciated and enjoyed your coverage of the Japan launch. You made me wish I was there, too.

Some opinions stated here are merely an expression of frustration that we can't get JBL's best, new...and were clearly, expressly designed for a foreign market. Even trying to find out where Array Series are on display is just too much trouble.

I started this mess, and I am sorry I did. The above three statements best represent how I feel. I did buy ALOT of NEW JBL, as well as other things, and I wasnt buying BB product either.

Don, your Tokyo trip was fantastic, you happen to be a very good photographer, IT did, and I said so, get me out of here and make me feel as if I had been there.

Yeah, I felt annoyed at not really being able to go and audition certain things, but reading about what is available overseas.

Im done now, I will not post anymore on this thread about this subject. Sorry if my true feelings offended some, that is just the way it went.

I am over with here, by my choice, and am moving on to other things

My sincere apologies to Greg Timbers, I am more than aware you are not the Harman marketing office, or the JBL CEO, and shouldnt have put you through this.

And most of all, to the forum members I offended, I am truly sorry, that was NEVER my intention. You are a great bunch of audio heads. It has always been enjoyable talking with you fellows!

louped garouv

09-18-2006, 03:22 PM

Im done now, I will not post anymore. Sorry if my true feelings offended some, that is just the way it went.

I am over with here, by my choice, and am moving on to other things

My sincere apologies to Greg Timbers, I am more than aware you are not the Harman marketing office, or the JBL CEO, and shouldnt have put you through this.

And most of all, to the forum members I offended, I am truly sorry, that was NEVER my intention. You are a great bunch of audio heads. It has always been enjoyable talking with you fellows!

Hopefully I won't have another "last post" link as my sig.... (speaking of which, when did the post count go to 6626? that's not divisible by 5!)

The new projects from JBL look promising, and I am hopeful that someday soon I win the lotto and can purchase them all....

Scott, consider me amongst the "un-offendables," gotta respect someone that is willing to say/share what they believe in....

Besides, it's audio talk guys.... no reason to get all upset over, really....

like what you like, and don't pay too much attention to the rest...

they're all morons anyways ;)

louped garouv

09-18-2006, 03:55 PM

:eek: Someone must have restored one of his posts!

that's what I guessed..... too hard for me to be sure though....

I guess someone needs to tell Giskard to get 4 more posts then... or delete one... hate for his final post count to be not evenly divisible by 5

confirmed lurker alert...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (6 members and 0 guests) louped garouv (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=792)*, Giskard (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=15)+, speakerdave (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=155), mikebake (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=50), Maron Horonzakz (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=257), Thom (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=5333)

Thom

09-18-2006, 03:56 PM

Hey I've already owned up to being unaware of what is currently out there. I just saw some JBL stuff through a link that was consumer but looked like pro stuff pollished up a bit. What's the deal. Does it have anything in common with the pro stuff. Does it sound like anything? If it's any good how does one find it. Does JBL have many different franchises. Is there something secret handshake, special code that tells one type of JBL dealer from another. Are any replacement parts available or are they exchange only?

jack_bouska

09-18-2006, 04:58 PM

Jack, it seems you have decided to dislike this speaker without giving it a listen.

Which is probably no bigger a sin than that committed by those who have *decided* to like the speaker, while also not yet having given it a listen.

Besides, a review of my past posts on this thread will reveal that I never directly stated a dislike for the Everest speakers; I just queried how JBL might have managed to overcome some of the issues that are in common with all designs.

In acoustics, looks can be deceiving, and intuition misleading, so I was left wondering. The white paper, and many of the posts have cleared up most of the outstanding issues, and I’m busy giving the other items some deep thought. (more posts to come).

I am guessing that through your experience you have developed a set of rules that you believe to be necessary to achieve the ideal sound. Widget

I suspect most speaker designers share that trait. I would be suspicious of any designer that did not make, at least a modified version of, the same claim.

You really focus on the driver symmetry, driver alignment, and the diffraction caused by sharp edges.

Not exclusively, but those are the issues that relate to the Everest design teams's decisions, which I understand the least, so naturally I'm going to ask the most questions about them. For instance, I also asked about how JBL managed to tame cabinet vibration. From the white paper I found out that they use a multi-layered front baffle, which is braced, and slotted into the cabinet such that the baffle is sufficiently stiffened so the 1st resonance mode will be pushed up in frequency, out of the pass-band. Top and bottom of the cabinet are small, and don’t pose much of an issue. The curved back panel is a large area, and might represent a problem area, however JBL implement a rather ingenious method for attenuating the passage of acoustic (and elastic) energy from inside the cabinet to the exterior by using cavity wall construction. Of course I label that as ingenious, because I use the same method in my own cabinets.

You also focused on deep bass... and in the case of the DD66000, it's inherent lack of deep bass without some coaxing

In previous posts, I had also asked about the DD66000 low bass extension, but reading Greg Timbers post, and the white paper, it’s obvious that JBL are marketing the Everest with big 18” subwoofers and/or digital active crossovers. These will provide the required low frequency extension and/or full capability for using EQ to provide desired bass lift. I’m delighted with that answer.

The bottom line is there is no substitute for a thorough audition.

I would expect the experience to be both exciting and enjoyable, but under traditional circumstances, probably less than useful in terms of an objective evaluation.

The best substitute for a through audition (in a dealer showroom, or in your own home), would be a true double blind test, comparing similar speakers from JBL & competitors, using that fancy “switch in an instant speaker rotator” that JBL has. Any “sighted” audition that you or I (or any member of the forum) partakes in, will be influenced by all of our prior expectations for the product. Best example I can think of to explain this is on pages 6-7 of Floyd Toole’s article: Speaker Design: Audio-Art and Science
In http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about_audio/default.asp (http://www.harmanaudio.com/all_about_audio/default.asp)

But pragmatically, even if I recognize that my own conclusions will be biased by prior opinion, I’m still going to want to have a good listen anyway. (mostly because it's fun).

Jack Bouska

Mr. Widget

09-18-2006, 05:43 PM

I think on many of these topics we are essentially in agreement... I disagree with the blind double blind form of an audition for one very relevant reason. We are not trying to find the best tool for use in open heart surgery or even the best studio monitor for mastering applications... this speaker is intended to be a part of our home and bring us joy. If the beauty of the cabinet biases us in a favorable way that is fine... when we are at home enjoying a speaker we typically do look at it and when it isn't in use it still resides in our home. The goal is our personal pleasure... as you said, you like to build your own speakers... so do I. I always build something that I would like to live with as well as listen to... if I don't like looking at them, I won't sit there and listen to them very long either. If the final result looks like some sort of science project I have failed... regardless of how wonderful it sounds.

I also take exception with:

"Jack, it seems you have decided to dislike this speaker without giving it a listen".-Mr. Widget

Which is probably no bigger a sin than that committed by those who have *decided* to like the speaker, while also not yet having given it a listen.
In a general discussion I would agree with you... however this isn't a general discussion... this is the celebration of 60 years of JBL and Lansing Heritage... this site is dedicated to that heritage and this project for better or worse is their current pinnacle of the line and lineage. Personally when I first heard about the project I was fearful of the results... I am not much of a fan of the previous JBL statement speaker. This one blew me away.

Widget

MJC

09-18-2006, 07:43 PM

How do you know that? Have you heard them?:dont-know :blink:
When Greg Timbers sez they are the best. that's good enough for me. And I plan to audition them in Jan. at the CES.

Shane Shuster

09-18-2006, 10:14 PM

If VLF is high on your list of criteria for an ultimate speaker and you refuse to use external EQ, you need to look elsewhere...

What I was talking about was build quality and technology and not performance... at this level performance is purely subjective... there are $100K systems that measure far worse than $10K systems and yet they have loyal followings and get great reviews.
VLF is very high on my list. Its above imaging for me. I know it isn't for most of the forum.
I was talking about performance. The build quality is A+. They are a 100% statement speaker.

Yeah... small homes need large speakers? Pardon the sarcasm... but are you basing that statement on the lack of deep bass? Worldwide there are many successful high end speakers that have limited deep bass... despite the Asian market comments... I am sure that JBL traded the deep bass off for a better quality of sound higher up in the frequency range. They could have used heavier cones and achieved very powerful deep bass, but it would sacrifice detail resolution, articulation, and a sense of speed.
Widget
I think my short posting style hurt me here. I meant I think they made a great speaker for the intended market. The JBL collectors will love these. I am glad you are excited and hope everyone who wants to hear them, gets to. I did not mean to bum you guys out with my opinion.

You guys are lucky I wasn't the one in Japan. I would have hit the anime and video game stores so hard I would need a team of pack mules. I never would have made it to JBL to take pics.:D

BingoBob

09-18-2006, 10:47 PM

Hello All,

Does anyone know if the speakers come with the stands that have the wheels, or are those offered as an accessory from JBL? ...and if it is additional, any ideal how much the cost of the pair of stands is going to run us when they finally get "back" to the USA?

Cheers Mates! :D Bob

jack_bouska

09-18-2006, 11:57 PM

... I disagree with the blind double blind form of an audition for one very relevant reason.... this speaker is intended to be a part of our home and bring us joy.

Ok, it’s a question of using the right tool for the job. Double blind is useful for focusing only on sonic qualities, excluding all others, but if other attributes are equally important, such as pride and joy of ownership, then I agree, the decision must be made with the prospective purchasers eyes open.

I also take exception with: --Which is probably no bigger a sin than that committed by those who have *decided* to like the speaker, while also not yet having given it a listen.—Bouska

In a general discussion I would agree with you... however this isn't a general discussion... this is the celebration of 60 years of JBL and Lansing Heritage... Widget

Sorry, remind me again why this thread isn’t a general discussion?

I went back and reread the 1st few posts in the thread. There was no mention of “60 year celebration” by the thread initiator (he just referred to the cat being out of the bag). Now it may be true that the majority of posters and readers do actually wish the thread to be dedicated to a celebration of 60 years of JBL, but, correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t see where the initial poster made that clear.

He just wanted the cat to be out of the bag; however a more apt euphemism would be akin to opening Pandora ’s Box!

But a discussion on how/why we listen, or how/why we post is off topic for this thread. So just a final technical tidbit for those of you who have read this far (I know your eyes are glazing..)

What about those DD66000 horns? They are described as Bi-Radial ™ in the white paper, but I was curious about the mouth termination. Closer inspection of some of Don’s photos, and the mechanical exploded drawings reveals that the horn expansion is probably formed by compound curves, with a near throat, short(ish) expansion dominating the medium and high frequency directivity. However the curve breaks mid-way, and the near mouth flare rate change might be acting as diffraction control “lips”. If my conjecture is true, this could be the method that JBL employs to avoid problems with sharp edges on the horn mouth. Over the frequency range of the horn, the “lips” expand more rapidly than the wave front, which is constrained to 100x60deg. (the horizontal wall exit angle looks to be ~160deg). This would make the Everest horn behave as if it were actually a much shorter device. Shorter horns are known for producing less of the dreaded “honk”, and the sharp edges on the mouth only come into play for the lowest ½ octave of the horn bandwidth. So if this is indeed the case, it appears to be quite a workable system.

Jack Bouska

Mr. Widget

09-19-2006, 12:08 AM

Sorry, remind me again why this thread isn’t a general discussion?Because this is a JBL and Lansing fan club! We have been waiting all year for this event! This isn't rocket science, it is social science.:D

If my conjecture is true, this could be the method that JBL employs to avoid problems with sharp edges on the horn mouth. Over the frequency range of the horn, the “lips” expand more rapidly than the wave front, which is constrained to 100x60deg. (the horizontal wall exit angle looks to be ~160deg). This would make the Everest horn behave as if it were actually a much shorter device. Shorter horns are known for producing less of the dreaded “honk”, and the sharp edges on the mouth only come into play for the lowest ½ octave of the horn bandwidth. So if this is indeed the case, it appears to be quite a workable system.
Yes, there is a lot of conjecture here... but I do believe you have stumbled upon the answer you sought.;)

Widget

Maron Horonzakz

09-19-2006, 06:11 AM

Conjacture is no substitute for a pair of ears.:D

merlin

09-19-2006, 09:37 AM

it appears to be quite a workable system.

Excellent. Sadly it appears we Europeans are going to get stiffed on the price. Speaking with a dealer friend this afternoon, it appears the UK price will be close to $110,000 and the European price very similar....

louped garouv

09-19-2006, 09:55 AM

Excellent. Sadly it appears we Europeans are going to get stiffed on the price. Speaking with a dealer friend this afternoon, it appears the UK price will be close to $110,000 and the European price very similar....
seems to be "par for the course"

I had a buyer in Leeds, UK that bought a Rane DJ mixer from me quite a while ago... anyway... he called Rane to get a UK RS1 power supply (all you have to do is get the right power supply and flip a voltage selector switch IIRC), they quoted him almost USD $200

I bought one from Rane directly and shipped it to him, total cost including shipping was less than USD $50....

Rolf

09-19-2006, 12:57 PM

When Greg Timbers sez they are the best. that's good enough for me. And I plan to audition them in Jan. at the CES.

I have the greatest respect for Greg Timbers. After all he is responsible for many of the different speakers I have had in the past, ... and have today. I would probably still be lurking around in hi-fi shops today if it not was for him.

BUT ... I like to hear before I say A or B.

northwood

09-19-2006, 03:13 PM

It would cost twice as much in China

jack_bouska

09-21-2006, 06:55 AM

Because this is a JBL and Lansing fan club! We have been waiting all year for this event! This isn't rocket science, it is social science.:D
Widget

The forum membership is varied, and this was/is reflected in the range of posts, and responses.

I’m not convinced that the collective anticipation surrounding the DD66000 news release, even if shared by a majority of the forum membership, justifies classification of the discussion as non-general.

I wager that controversy breeds more interest in the Everest than it garners contempt, and it is likely that participation in this thread would have abated long ago, if the postings were limited solely to simple expressions of “looks great”, or “ I can hardly wait to hear them”, or “wish I could afford a pair”.

Challenging comments, regardless of whether they are related to JBL management/marketing decisions, or technical queries, help to expand the general level of information available on this product, by enticing knowledgeable forum members to post their reasoned response.

Suppose all the, so labeled, “negative” comments had never been posted. I suspect that we would know less about the new Everest loudspeaker, than we know now, for having had the benefit of seeing such a diversity of views. (Automotive related posts excluded).

Fortunately, this forum is in no immediate danger of falling into the same category as so many of the glossy audio mass market magazines, where glowing reviews reflect the source of advertising dollars. Personally I would be dismayed if any member of this forum felt that they needed to suppress a (non-defamatory) viewpoint, lest it upset another member, or corporate patron.

As for describing the forum as a fan club, I do agree with you on that point. I am a longtime fan of JBL, and probably practice as much brand loyalty as anyone else on the forum. My current five way stereo system contains fourteen transducers (7/ch), ten of which are branded JBL, two of which have the name Lansing (preceded by the “A” word) on them, and the last two out of fourteen are made by (gasp) TAD (apparently designed by former JBL employees).

Interestingly (and there is a point to all this), I purchased the TAD 2002 to replace a pair of JBL 2426 (titanium) compression drivers. The 2426’s suffer diaphragm breakup in the 13-16 kHz range, while the 2002 does not exhibit breakup until around 24 kHz (outside the audible band), so it sounds cleaner (but handles less power). When I purchased the TAD (at turn of the century), I was unaware of any available JBL compression drivers which did not exhibit some diaphragm breakup below 20 kHz.

A comment regarding the 2441, 375 or any other JBL compression driver. The 476Be is better in every way! It measures better in response, harmonic distortion and decay properties - period. More importantly, it just plain sounds better by a huge margin, unless you like hash, grit and false dynamics due to diaphragm breakup.

Now, here’s my question to the forum members: is the Everest DD66000 476Be compression driver the *first ever* JBL device to be free of diaphragm breakup in the five octaves from 700 Hz to 20 kHz ?

If true, then I believe I do see myself sourcing a 476Be sometime in the future.

Jack Bouska

jack_bouska

09-21-2006, 07:19 AM

Conjacture is no substitute for a pair of ears.:D

(post script from jack - I have edited out my inappropriate sarcasim - apologys)

When you state that conjecture is no substitute for a pair of ears, it may appear to be a simple platitude of common sense; however the problem with that argument is :

“A pair of ears” is only as good as the brain to which they are attached.

To illustrate my point, I have included a screen snapshot of a particularly salient passage from Dr. Floyd Tooles paper, which I referenced in post #230 above. I suspect that you did not read the full paper, so I have included the appropriate section in this post. Please review it now, and if you can, also please explain how you manage to mitigate those well documented, common, biases when you audition loudspeakers with the intent of evaluating their relative sonic merits.

Experience should remind you that a brief audition, under crowded, noisy convention conditions, in a sub-optimal room, using unfamiliar music, may be emotionally rewarding during the heat of the moment, but will be ultimately of limited value for establishing the true fidelity of a given speaker system.

Having said that, I’m off to attend the trade day at the Heathrow Hi-Fi news show at the Renaissance hotel tomorrow. http://www.hifinews.co.uk/show2006/exhibitor.php (http://www.hifinews.co.uk/show2006/exhibitor.php)
(sadly, the Everest DD66000 in will not be in attendance)

Mostly I’m going to see what new (or old) technology is being marketed these days, and to chat with as many HiFi vendors and designers as I can. No doubt I’ll be listening to a wide variety of systems (using my own CD, if permitted), but I will be doing that primarily for the experience of the moment. I’m under no illusions about being able to make objective judgments about relative performance of any of the systems.

Jack Bouska