Comments on Don's Tokyo adventure.

[Titanium Dome]

In order to keep his thread clean, let's post any comments/replies in this separate thread.

[Mr. Widget]

Can you say wow?! Many of those individual speakers I've seen before... but to see a wall of unfamiliar JBLs is really something else.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Well, I saw two things I actually own: the 4430s and the Creatures. I couldn't believe that GT was taking his time to peruse them (the Creatures).

I saw a couple of things I wish I owned, too. It looks like there's K2 S9800s on every block.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Nice to see concentrated examples of high end audio. You could spend weeks in that area alone.

Ken

[Titanium Dome]

That Westlake looks like a Tower Series HR-7, almost.

I think the HR-7 has a super tweeter in it though. So... :dont-know

[edgewound]

Too bad you have to go to Tokyo to see JBL's good stuff on display.

What a great photo documentary, Don. You must be thrilled to be along on the trip...A nice tribute and nod to the Lansing Heritage Site.

[JBLnsince1959]

Can you say wow?! Many of those individual speakers I've seen before... but to see a wall of unfamiliar JBLs is really something else.


Widget

I agree completely.

maybe we should have a LHF meeting in Japan someday

[clmrt]

Killer that there's a mini in black paint with the white JBL logo painted on, a'la Cabaret.

I can't imagine the market for audio over there. Does EVERYONE have a mid-fi or better system?

(As in, not like us Americans with our Coby/Insignia kits:barf: )

[gene]

SPEECHLESS! I guess the market for biger speakers or cabs even money is no problem overseas. I saw some jbl speakers I never seen or heard of.I am at my desk at work just shaking my head- speechless. I saw some jbl speaker I would love to have, two of them are studio speakers and of course jbl-9800. here on the east coast all the hi end stereo stores sale what they want to sale and what they think they can make a profit on. not giving the consumer a choice . even if they had such a place on the east coast were you can see and hear all of jbl speakers would be nice, even though I could not afford them.They say its nothing like home but some times you have to leave your own country to see whats in your own back yard:blink: . awesome pictures:applaud:

[hapy._.face]

'wow' is right! I can't stop looking at those pics. I lightened up a few in order to see the details and hidden stuff. very cool.

Does anyone know what kind of amp is in the K2 room with GT? At first I thought it was an old HK Citation but now I'm not so sure. I can see what looks like green script and the heat sinks look like a Citation's- the front doesn't look like an XX, though...just curious.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=123631&postcount=5 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=123631&postcount=5)

[brianlun]

its a accuphase a-60:bouncy:

[Zilch]

O.K., so where's the Mini 4430s?

[Or are they a LHF "Exclusive".... :) ]

[spkrman57]

Reminded me of when you could go into audio shops back in the day and see a large selection of gear/speakers to pick from in front of you!

Ron

[Guido]

WE WANT TO HAVE ALL THOSE SPEAKERS AVAILABLE IN OUR COUNTRY TOO !!!

[Mr. Widget]

Oh, quit complaining... you get a better selection than we do... well at least from JBL Consumer. JBL PRO still brings down the walls at home though!


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Wow, those stores look like ours ONCE did! Very nice, but, its all the way over there in Japan, not here.

[Wardsweb]

Absolutely INCREDIBLE ! Well it is quite evident the Japanese take their audio very seriously. What else you going to spend you money on when you have a two generation 60 year morgage?

[bone215]

Great pictures.
Every place looks spotlessly clean. Does the American word "litter" translate in Japanese???

[Rolf]

Very interesting to see all the pictures.

Here in Norway we have never had such big hi-fi stores. Most of the good stuff was (still is) sold true small stores.

Back in "my days" it was a lot of JBL there. Not anymore. Why?

This is why: Many of us know it doesent sound very good. JBL needs to get back on-line and produce products as good as before. I have never heard a JBL speaker after the large studio monitors I have wanted to change to.

But, that's my opinion.

[Fangio]

Mr. Widget, ok we have shops and retailers like that here, in germany. For sure not with that warehouse-style square footage numbers, but they exist, and most likely similar in other european capitals.

But when it comes to JBL all one could find in the shops is Northridge, Northridge series everywhere, Balboa, Control 1, well consumer stuff and thats it. No pro stuff at all, the offers in most retailer's highend corners are literally JBL-free. Look what the internet dealers have to offer here - the same.

I have to agree with Guido. The bandwidth of JBL speakers offered by Harman in Far East is unbelievable, and it makes no sense to me why the Harmans marketing guys' focus for all this top gear seems to be solely over there. Admitted this is a forum of enthusiasts or at least already-customers of the brand, but I just don't get it - why is there such a low demand on their home market and europe assumed. I have a prob to imagine this being totally uneconomic and would really love to see a statement on that. Mr. Bente, Mrs. Harman, do you hear us? Please consider to diversify your range of articles in US and europe, or at least to spread the availability of existing products on other market places of the world than Far East! Thank you.

[Thomax]

+1

Here in France we have Northridge series, Studio L, and after... nothing until high end series (Project Array, K2). This is a HUGE gap. :blink: Don't understand that, when you look at other brands who have many product ranges to fit every price level. The problem is also that they're selling lots of their "multimedia" plastic crap for Ipod, and it deteriorates the reputation of the brand.

Another example, I am young and I wasn't there during the "big studio monitor era" so I'm not a "nostalgic" of vintage speakers. But I bought myself an old pair of Decade 26 instead of buying from their current product series. Everyone here who wants JBL are buying vintage JBLs.

I know of someone that had to choose from a brand new pair of L890 and a vintage pair of L96. He finally bought the L96 after listenning to both. Don't you think that there's something wrong ? :hmm:

[Mr. Widget]

I know of someone that had to choose from a brand new pair of L890 and a vintage pair of L96. He finally bought the L96 after listenning to both. Don't you think that there's something wrong ? :hmm:There are members on this forum who seem quite happy with their L890s... I agree with you. I think there is something wrong. Those speakers may be fine for the money but they shouldn't have the JBL logo on them.

The new DD66000 is fantastic... but it isn't a real product. Almost no one will be able to afford them. Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that JBL has produced them, but in the old days the lineage between the L26 and the top end JBLs was clear... and they were all built in the same building in Southern California... today we have a multinational conglomerate producing product. Yes there are still the Greg Timbers and Paul Bentes there who are passionate about this stuff... but they must keep the massive corporate machine profitable and if that means selling JBL's soul by making those creature turds then that's what they'll do. It is terribly wrong. Profit and a continual need for growth and increased productivity will in the end kill us all. (and in the near term it will make a handful of people very wealthy)


Widget

[Thomax]

Yes, absolutely, and I still wonder why they can't sell in the same time mass market products and other series that are true JBL inside... that would make everyone happy.

[jleblanc]

The new DD66000 is fantastic... but it isn't a real product. Almost no one will be able to afford them. Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that JBL has produced them, but in the old days the lineage between the L26 and the top end JBLs was clear... and they were all built in the same building in Southern California... today we have a multinational conglomerate producing product. Yes there are still the Greg Timbers and Paul Bentes there who are passionate about this stuff... but they must keep the massive corporate machine profitable and if that means selling JBL's soul by making those creature turds then that's what they'll do. It is terribly wrong. Profit and a continual need for growth and increased productivity will in the end kill us all. (and in the near term it will make a handful of people very wealthy)

I fail to see why the lack of common parts or linneage between JBLs flagship and low-end products detracts from the flagship one. Why do JBL's ipod-driven consumer products have anything to do with their expensive ones. It's a bit like saying that Ferraris aren't what they used to be, because Fiat makes an economy car. Sure, it's the same company (or was) but who cares? Judge the new Everest on its own merits.

As for it being expensive and "almost no one will be able to afford them"... well yeah, but how is that different from the Previous Everest, K2, paragon, etc.? adjusted for inflation dollars, I suspect this product is about the same price as those, if not less.

[Mr. Widget]

I am in no way saying that any piece of junk with the JBL logo on it detracts from the DD66000... I am damning JBL's corporate mentality, not the speakers. I think that the DD66000 is absolutely in keeping with the tradition that James B. Lansing started over 60 years ago.

My beef is that for the first 40 years of the company's history, every product was in keeping with that fine tradition. Today that is not the case. Most of the products that are offered with the JBL name on them are simple "me too" products that are being marketed by shoe salesmen in Harman's offices back east.


Widget

[edgewound]

My beef is that for the first 40 years of the company's history, every product was in keeping with that fine tradition. Today that is not the case. Most of the products that are offered with the JBL name on them are simple "me too" products that are being marketed by shoe salesmen in Harman's offices back east.


Widget

I could not agree more with that sentiment....Grand Slam, Widget!!!

[Titanium Dome]

C'mon guys. It's a grand day that should be for celebrating.

[Rolf]

I
As for it being expensive and "almost no one will be able to afford them"... well yeah, but how is that different from the Previous Everest, K2, paragon, etc.? adjusted for inflation dollars, I suspect this product is about the same price as those, if not less.

No, no, no. When I bought my Paragon in (Norway)1978/79 the price was about 8 of my net monthly pay. If the new D66000 is to cost US$60.000 the price here in Norway will be about 24 of my now net monthly pay. Remember that the price for JBL always have been about x2 than in the US. I don't know why, but the freight is one reason. I will guess that the D66000 will be produced somewhere in the east, and the freight to Norway (Europe) will not get any cheaper than from the US.

The price for a pair of 1400 is about US$11.000 at the moment here. How does this compare to the US prices?

I believe something has gone totally wrong over the years.

[Ian Mackenzie]

If JBL Consumer didn't adopt the global mass market strategy that has taken them into the new millenium they would have perished. Many of those other brands now under Harman would have also fallen by the wayside. JBL Consumer Japan is also a seperate business/division as I understand it and that makes sense give the nature of the audio market in Japan.

[Guido]

It is terribly wrong. Profit and a continual need for growth and increased productivity will in the end kill us all. (and in the near term it will make a handful of people very wealthy)
Widget

Well said Widget. THAT is the truth that nobody want to hear.

[JonathanKeehn]

Thank goodness that plenty of vintage JBL systems and componenet are still available. A pair of 4355's cost about 10% of the new D66000 statement system and I'll bet they sound at least 80% as good - especially with modified crossover networks. After all, a speaker is just a glorified air pump. Beryllium diaphrams are certainly better than aluminum and titanium but they are not THAT much better. I too detest the Corporate Mentality that craps on its Mother Country the USA. The USA has a 14 trillion dollar GDP. Japan's is 4 trillion. JBL should offer these statement products in the US. Please show some damn gratitude for the country that put you on the map and allowed you to exist and prosper for 60 years. Ford Motor sell millions of cars each year but expects to sell only about 1,000 GT models at $ 150,000.00 each. It adds greatly to their marketing prestige. JBL could do the same.

P.S. I don't want to sound too negative on the launch of a fantastic new product, but I resent the fact that JBL's American fans are treated as second-class citizens. Hopefully JBL will eventually sell these speakers in the USA. I think they are well worth the $60,000 estimated price. I know that because of the dearth of well-heeled audiophiles and the rapidly declining awareness of the US buying public JBL would not make much money offering them here, considering the costs of marketing and service for a product that might sell less than 100 pairs per year, but it would be the right thing to do, even if they break even. Congratulations on a great piece of engineering and design work.

[scott fitlin]

I am in no way saying that any piece of junk with the JBL logo on it detracts from the DD66000... I am damning JBL's corporate mentality, not the speakers. I think that the DD66000 is absolutely in keeping with the tradition that James B. Lansing started over 60 years ago.

My beef is that for the first 40 years of the company's history, every product was in keeping with that fine tradition. Today that is not the case. Most of the products that are offered with the JBL name on them are simple "me too" products that are being marketed by shoe salesmen in Harman's offices back east.


WidgetI especially love it when they tell me no one can hear the difference.

:no: Not true!

[Titanium Dome]

This is remarkable, so I'll remark on it. On what should be a glorious day for JBL and JBL enthusiasts, instead I see a litany of corrosive talk about everything but what Don's seeing and experiencing in Japan.

He's sharing with us a once-in-a-lifetime experience that I for one would be envious of having. He's taking the time to document the event for us and to give us first look at a potential breakthrough system.

I've rarely seen such grousing and sourpussing by purported fans at the inception of a great, landmark product. The focus in the thread is decidedly negative and off the subject, and I can't figure out why.

I have no doubt, reading the comments here, why JBL introduced this product in Japan.

Don, I wish I could feel the energy, enthusiasm, and optimism that are present there. It has to be invigorating. It has to impart to all the folks at JBL that they're at the right place at the right time.

It was enough to get Greg Timbers to wear a tie and a jacket. That's gotta be a plus right there.

Thanks a lot for sharing some of the event with us. I am totally stoked. :banana:

It's enough to make me consider a "real" horn, even if it does remind me of a Cylon BaseStar.

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/SF-Conversions/Rifts-BSG-Ships/Basestar.htm

[bone215]

I T I S T H E B U S I N E S S
O F
M A K I N G
M O N E Y

[JBLnsince1959]

I've rarely seen such grousing and sourpussing by purported fans at the inception of a great, landmark product. The focus in the thread is decidedly negative and off the subject, and I can't figure out why.

I have no doubt, reading the comments here, why JBL introduced this product in Japan.



I agree 100%....

If JBL Consumer didn't adopt the global mass market strategy that has taken them into the new millenium they would have perished. Many of those other brands now under Harman would have also fallen by the wayside. JBL Consumer Japan is also a seperate business/division as I understand it and that makes sense give the nature of the audio market in Japan.

Yes, Harmon is not a stupid company and they know their markets. For example the store here in Kansas City that had the Infinity Preludes and PS series on display in their own room..want to know how many they sold???? not one....WHY you ask? because the american consumer is to cheap to spend money on good quality sound. They'll spend $8000 on big-ass Screens and then say..I've got $500 left what can I get for sound...

So if JBL and Harmon go to the country that put's their money where their mouth is should I be pissed or upset? NO..

Now, do I agree with everything JBL does..no.. but there are other threads for that.





Don, I wish I could feel the energy, enthusiasm, and optimism that are present there. It has to be invigorating.

It was enough to get Greg Timbers to wear a tie and a jacket. That's gotta be a plus right there.



Really, what a treasure Harmon and JBL has given us by allowing Don to travel with them and document the events...priceless... Thank you Don, Thank you Harmon, Thank you JBL and GT and the gang:applaud:

as far as GT's tie..well..I wonder how long he had it on. I'll bet $5 he uses a clip-on tie and takes it off whenever he can:D


So now let's party and celebrate .......:dj-party:

[Ian Mackenzie]

as far as GT's tie..well..I wonder how long he had it on. I'll bet $5 he uses a clip-on tie and takes it off whenever he can:D



A bit of factual trivia:Loyalty
I actually sent Greg a tie as a gift a couple of years ago..he said he would wear to trade events and such.

Ian

[Shane Shuster]

My beef is that for the first 40 years of the company's history, every product was in keeping with that fine tradition. Today that is not the case. Most of the products that are offered with the JBL name on them are simple "me too" products that are being marketed by shoe salesmen in Harman's offices back east.

What did you want them to do? Junk speakers have gotten much better over the years. The gap between hi-end and low-end speakers has closed considerably. Audio wasn't competing with computers, videogames, pimped out cars, and extended cable back then. Who in this day and age wants to spend 1000% more to get 10% better sound. (besides us hardcore)

They did what they had to do because times change, even if you don't want them to. You go with the change or you become Altec.

[Ian Mackenzie]

My beef is that for the first 40 years of the company's history, every product was in keeping with that fine tradition. Today that is not the case. Most of the products that are offered with the JBL name on them are simple "me too" products that are being marketed by shoe salesmen in Harman's offices back east.


Widget

I think that pretty damning and rude given the timing.

A quick look at recent catalogues explains JBLs legacy passed down from previous years and actual improvements with new technologies in the way they do things.

The fact is their products and their success have only improved in the more recent past 2 decades and are now within the each of more customers and they are competitive. More real Hifi shops and department stores sell JBLs like the new Studio Series then ever before.

http://www.convoy.com.au/main.asp?page=products/monster.asp

http://www.convoy.com.au/main.asp?page=products/monster.asp


The fact is Japan is the epi centre for hifi and this is where the cream of JBL's consumer business is and has been for decades. Anyone confusing that with they way they run the business needs to put a sock in it.

[Shane Shuster]

The fact is Japan is the epi centre for hifi and this is where the cream of JBL's consumer business is and has been for decades. Anyone confusing that with they way they run the business needs to put a sock in it.
They are an epicenter for a certain kind of hifi. It's a discussion board why would anyone need to put a sock in it?

[Mr. Widget]

Junk speakers have gotten much better over the years. The gap between hi-end and low-end speakers has closed considerably.That's certainly true... you can buy very affordable speakers that offer quite respectable performance today... in the past it wasn't nearly as easy to find real audio bargains.


Who in this day and age wants to spend 1000% more to get 10% better sound. (besides us hardcore)No one ever wants to, but Jim Lansing used to and some of us still do. My point about the legacy and heritage of James B. Lansing is absolutely on topic today of all days. The DD66000 show a care and precision that harkens back to the JBL of years past... it is as miraculous an achievement as the original Hartsfield. Not just because it represents a real work of industrial design art, but the quality and the materials of the cabinets, those beautiful hardwoods, the state of the art drivers that are as beautiful to look at as the music they reproduce. The attention to every detail... this is JBL. This is the JBL I fell in love with and this is the JBL I hope to see in the future.

I think TiDome is right we should praise JBL and congratulate them on a job well done. I was pointing out that I wish they could do more of this... the reality is they are a successful business and Jim Lansing's company, Lansing Manufacturing, was not. He produced only DD66000s and he went broke... I think there must be a happy middle ground. With luck this introduction will point the way toward that JBL. A company that is successful but remembers it's real roots... as an innovator and not compromising on quality.


Widget

[Shane Shuster]

but the quality and the materials of the cabinets, those beautiful hardwoods, the state of the art drivers that are as beautiful to look at as the music they reproduce. The attention to every detail... this is JBL. This is the JBL I fell in love with and this is the JBL I hope to see in the future.

Widget
The looks are debatable. I would have them behind curtains. The "boobs" woofer layout is hideous. The drivers are cool though.

I'm a toolmaker and don't find over engineering all that practical. I wish they had a more business like speaker in the 5-8k range that a guy could save up for and get. Ditch the Be, super tweeter, and Neo magnets. Use the money on a better layout.

[Mr. Widget]

The looks are debatable....Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... I really love the way they look. I have no idea how they sound, but I am damned envious of Don and those in Japan that have had and will have the opportunity to audition them.


I wish they had a more business like speaker in the 5-8k range that a guy could save up for and get.Project Array Series?


Widget

[Shane Shuster]

Project Array Series?
Widget
Ugly.

I quess maybe a 4428 minus the blue baffle but with an extra woofer to free the other woofer from excursion while its doing upper bass/midrange. It would also move the tweeter up to ear height. Make a few changes to make it look less studio. Bump the retail price up 2 or 3 grand for the changes.

A S4800 is cool but when you get to a certain price and still need a sub it's iffy. Same with Project Array. $11000 and you still need a sub. Not from a SPL/frequency stand point but from having the same driver do 20hz and up to 750hz.

[JBLnsince1959]

A bit of factual trivia:Loyalty
I actually sent Greg a tie as a gift a couple of years ago..he said he would wear to trade events and such.

Ian

was it a clip-on or a regular tie???;), I'm starting to worry about my $5:p

[MJC]

There are members on this forum who seem quite happy with their L890s... I agree with you. I think there is something wrong. Those speakers may be fine for the money but they shouldn't have the JBL logo on them.
Widget
As one of those people, I have to say the Studio L 890 is a good speaker, for the price. But it is in NO WAY the best I've ever heard either. I do like the sound of the titanium tweeter, and the overall sound, but the soundstage doesn't even come close to my mirror image L212s. But with better gear connected to the 890s might improve that.

I totally agree, that there are large gaps in the JBL consumer line.

A pair of 890s are $1400/pr,
PS PT800/PS1400 combo, the price jumps to MORE than TRIPLE(@ retail) @ around $6500/pr.
Project Array 1400 almost DOUBLE @ $11k/pr and even the BOOKSHELF 800 @ $6k/pr
K2 @ $30k/pr almost TRIPLE again
Everest DD6600 @ $65k/pr? Double + again

And as I've said before, I have never heard, or even seen, anything above the L890.

[JBLnsince1959]

There are members on this forum who seem quite happy with their L890s... I agree with you. I think there is something wrong. Those speakers may be fine for the money but they shouldn't have the JBL logo on them.

but they must keep the massive corporate machine profitable and if that means selling JBL's soul by making those creature turds then that's what they'll do. It is terribly wrong. Profit and a continual need for growth and increased productivity will in the end kill us all. (and in the near term it will make a handful of people very wealthy)


Widget

I'll touch on this and it's the last I'll say about it. But my point of view will be from one of a business man.

The speakers for the masses that we audio snobs put down is absolutety necessary for the very existance of speakers such as the the K2 or D66000.

Every time JBL sells a creature , an Ipod thingy or a Northridge everyone benifits, because it does the following:
1. Increases name recognition
2. Increases market share
3. Increases Economy of Scale
4. provides capital

Also, it's important that we understand the nature and PURPOSE of Statement speakers. They are not just super-duper expensive speakers.....Their true purpose is to push beyond the known limits of current technology to produce something that has never before existed....and this is very expensive. The level of research, design, testing, protoTypes, restesting, evaluation, creativity is the MOST EXPENSIVE investment a company can make and to do it takes capital....lots of capital

also, the statements speakers provide new tech that will filter into their other products ( both pro and consumer) making them more competive in the future. Some of what is learned will even show up in their speakers for the masses at some time.

So to damn the speakers for the masses and then praise the statement speakers is short sided ( IMHO) because it is the capital from the speakers for the masses that makes it possible for JBL to do the statement speakers.

It's two sides of the same coin.

OR, let me say it in a way that everyone will understand...

Just as BULL-SHIT makes the pasture grass grow tall...the creature "turds" make the Statement speakers possible..

So what is happening right now is NOT just the release of a new speaker..but of new technology.. this is not trival

Just my 2 cents....

Now let's party....:bouncy: :bouncy:

[MJC]

I'll touch on this and it's the last I'll say about it. But my point of view will be from one of a business man.

The speakers for the masses that we audio snobs put down is absolutety necessary for the very existance of speakers such as the the K2 or D66000.

also, the statements speakers provide new tech that will filter into their other products ( both pro and comsumer) making them more competive in the future. Some of what is learned will even show up in their speakers for the masses at some time.


I have to totally agree. Going back to when I first became aware of JBLs, in the mid-sixties, while in electronic school, at that time and into the seventies, JBL made lots of speakers I couldn't take for free. Mainly their bookshelf speakers, including the L100. Although, I don't know why they referred the L100 as 'bookshelf ' it stands almost as tall as the L55s, which as the cheapest JBL I ever bought. And only because I couldn't afford the L65s.
At the time that I bought the L212 system in '79, I didn't know anybody that would even consider spending $2k, or even the $1500 I paid(bought the store display L212s). Even today, most of the people I know don't want to spend that much NOW for a 5/7 channel system, much less a stereo system.
So, to produce sales a speaker company has to have many lines at different price points to be profitable.
Look at GMC, do they just have Cadillacs? No they also have four other enties below, all at different price points.
I just wish that JBL speaker lines weren't so far apart on price points and that the better models were much more readily available.

[johnaec]

Since I don't normally travel in $60K+ speaker circles, can someone else list some of the other esoteric speakers in or above this range? Methinks the 66000's might show quite a bit of value compared to some of the others I recall seeing in news stories past...

And when you take boundary effects and a little judicious use of EQ into account, I'm willing to bet you'd get pretty good lows out of the 66000.

John

[Robh3606]

A pair of 890s are $1400/pr,
PS PT800/PS1400 combo, the price jumps to MORE than TRIPLE(@ retail) @ around $6500/pr.
Project Array 1400 almost DOUBLE @ $11k/pr and even the BOOKSHELF 800 @ $6k/pr
K2 @ $30k/pr almost TRIPLE again
Everest DD6600 @ $65k/pr? Double + again


JBLs have always been expensive. The L100 was very expensive compared to many conteporary speakers. Significant performance jumps are also expensive and get much more costly the closer you get to the top. If that's what the pricing reflects could be they feel there in not too much middle ground between the jumps or simply not worth pursuing.

Rob:)

[JBLnsince1959]

JBLs have always been expensive. The L100 was very expensive compared to many conteporary speakers. Significant performance jumps are also expensive and get much more costly the closer you get to the top. If that's what the pricing reflects could be they feel there in not too much middle ground between the jumps or simply not worth pursuing.

Rob:)

excellent point Rob...

[mikebake]

I've rarely seen such grousing and sourpussing by purported fans at the inception of a great, landmark product. The focus in the thread is decidedly negative and off the subject, and I can't figure out why.



It's because that is who they are.

I too thought it was quite odd and revealing that we got peoples world views in these threads, but I figured that it was just me that felt like you, so I just don't comment on it and add to the derailment. Some people are just wired that way and it comes out.

[MJC]

JBLs have always been expensive. The L100 was very expensive compared to many conteporary speakers. Significant performance jumps are also expensive and get much more costly the closer you get to the top. If that's what the pricing reflects could be they feel there in not too much middle ground between the jumps or simply not worth pursuing.

Rob:)
The L100 was cheaper than the L55 and the L55 was only a 2-way, where as the L100 was a 3-way, I never considered the L100 expensive. The L65 was more than the L55 and the L65 was over what I could afford at that time.
I've seen other speakers who's list prices were much more than any JBL. So to say JBLs are expensive, has to be put into perspective, compared to other brands.

[MJC]

This is remarkable, so I'll remark on it. On what should be a glorious day for JBL and JBL enthusiasts, instead I see a litany of corrosive talk about everything but what Don's seeing and experiencing in Japan.

He's sharing with us a once-in-a-lifetime experience that I for one would be envious of having. He's taking the time to document the event for us and to give us first look at a potential breakthrough system.
Thanks a lot for sharing some of the event with us. I am totally stoked.
I'd love to be there checking it out, and most of the time, over the past 60 years, JBL has had many winners, and once again come up with another.
The only problem I have with JBL is their lack of quality dealers in this country, the last 20 years.

[pentictonklaus]

Absolutely stunning. Plain beautiful. And the price.....
Taking a live expectancy of over 30 years into account, still cheaper then cable TV, and smoking cigarettes. Your children can also inherit them.
These will be on my Christmas wish list.

[Shane Shuster]

Since I don't normally travel in $60K+ speaker circles, can someone else list some of the other esoteric speakers in or above this range? Methinks the 66000's might show quite a bit of value compared to some of the others I recall seeing in news stories past...

And when you take boundary effects and a little judicious use of EQ into account, I'm willing to bet you'd get pretty good lows out of the 66000.

John
You can stack 3 pairs of new Tannoy Westminsters for a $60k street price. Genelecs are ugly but come with the amps built in. The "good" Wilsons cost more but you get a tower of woofers.

John, would you be happy with "pretty good lows" out of a $60k speaker?

I personally think it dosen't show value because it is targeted at Japanese audiophiles from a design standpoint instead of a "ultimate" sound standpoint.

[spkrman57]

A statement speaker from JBL/Harmon that suits their needs.

All the R & D that goes into them will trickle down to the levels of affordable audio that we might buy.

Remember, JBL does not exist to satisfy us hobbyist and music lovers, but we can benefit from what they learn.

I know I want to revisit the dual 15" driver and horn arrangement again with my "vintage" drivers.

Someday when I am old and gray(not too far off), I hope to buy some JBL speakers that will be vintage, but new to me!!!

Ron

[Shane Shuster]

All the R & D that goes into them will trickle down to the levels of affordable audio that we might buy.


What from the K2 series has trickled down into Perfomance series or lower? You hit the Array series and its a totally different JBL. It's like there are 3 JBLs.

Computer speaker JBL, mass market JBL and high quality JBL. (Array on up) The high quality JBL doesn't seem to blend down into the mass market. It just abruptly starts at $11,000.

[Ducatista47]

Good comments, but the bottom line is, as Widget said, James B Lansing couldn't figure out how to make money. Harman has figured it out, and they owe us nothing. I for one am grateful for anything they provide Lansing Heritage with. Almost as gratefull as I am to Don and his moderators for providing this opportunity for us hopefully humble members.

I do also understand why we enthusiasts are so attached to what James Lansing did accomplish. Western Electric, I guess, demonstrated what was possible, and Mr. Lansing demonstrated how to make it available and continually improve it. All the while employing the highest standards of design and craftsmanship, something most members here admire wherever we find it. I think most of us would admire a can opener if it met Mr. Lansing's standards, and would post the find in off topic to share it.

I know James Lansing the man, the creator of our heritage, was often unhappy and very frustrated. I don't like to remember him as someone who couldn't make a business work and who took his own life. I like to honor his memory thinking about his wonderful ideas and ideals, and the fantastic creations he made real. I like to think of him as a young, happy, optimistic man, so I always think of him like this:


Clark in Peoria

[Zilch]

I would have them behind curtains. The "boobs" woofer layout is hideous.They come with modesty panels.... ;)


I'm a toolmaker and don't find over engineering all that practical. I wish they had a more business like speaker in the 5-8k range that a guy could save up for and get. Ditch the Be, super tweeter, and Neo magnets. That's a DIY opportunity for a toolmaker, I'd say.

Without the supertweeter, it's a dual-woofer 2-way apparently good to 18 - 20 kHz. The horn is integral to the top of the cabinet; you know how to do all of that. Suitable drivers are available from JBL.... :thmbsup:

[edgewound]

It's because that is who they are.

I too thought it was quite odd and revealing that we got peoples world views in these threads, but I figured that it was just me that felt like you, so I just don't comment on it and add to the derailment. Some people are just wired that way and it comes out.

Please don't misconstrue who I am or what my world views are over my opinions and experience with Harman's mistreatment over the last 20 years of the US market...and their dealer network. They did it...not us.

Take a look at what's happening here. JBL Consumer has realized late in the game that they need something spectacular to keep the JBL Legacy in the present. Who's the biggest supporter of JBL Legacy?...we are, right here.

Why do you think that Don has been given such backstage priviledges with this event? As a Servicer, I've experienced the downhill slide of domestic JBL during the last two decades from the front lines. The start of the slide was the killing of the pro component based L-Series and unreasonable purchase demands of small dealers...not to mention a unreasoanblly low level of customer service and parts inventory. If you've been on the phone with them, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Someone at the top somewhere decided there needs to be a renaissance to keep the brand respectable, and now it's happening. We just hope it happens here at home. They still must deliver an attainable product that displays percieved build quality that can bridge generations of consumers. My experienced customers are not stupid....if they see cheap products with a highend name on it, they figure there's been a corporate sellout.

I, for one, will not simply rubberstamp a great effort. It will open my eyes, and I will recognize it, but it has to continue for the effort to be valid over the long haul to be considered sincere from a corporation...this is Harman....not Jim Lansing. Yes, Harman is a very successful NYSE corporation, but many bridges have been burned along the way too.

I spent time writing this and responding....because I care...not just to trash Harman.

[Zilch]

We're insulted, is all.

But, concurrently, while we'd like the hear them, we're also quick to say we couldn't possibly afford them, or, if we could, we'd likely get an expensive car, instead.

JBL knows that. They go where the priorities kick straight down to the bottom line.

It's not JBL's fault we're what we are....

[JonathanKeehn]

I think there will be a renaissance in JBL audio and their dealer network when there is a renaissance in American high-end audio. Sad to say that many things in the USA have been dumbed down as the culture slips more and more into mediocrity. All you have to do is watch Jay Leno's Jaywalking segments on the Tonight Show to see what has happened to our educational system! Back in 1968 I couldn't wait to buy a pair of Sovereign I S8R's with JbL Energizer and SG520 Graphic Controller. Today's young buyers want a Bose system. I wish I knew what it would take to revitalize the high-end market. If that ever happens maybe JBL could become a household name again and sell its top tier products in the US. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting though.

I think the cost of high-end comonents has grown far more than the inflation adjusted purchasing power of the dollar. I remeber paying $1,872 for a pair of S8R's 38 years ago. That would be over $15,000 in today's dollars. Today's high-end speaker systems cost $40,000 to over $100,000 a pair. The graphic Controller was $465.00. Today a Mark Levinson preamp is $ 15,000. I think the cost structure is killing the high-end market. While there are plenty of Americans who can afford the prices, the dealers can't afford to floor plan the expensive inventory any more. Maybe JBL could sell their top-end systems to the public directly via Northridge and help 3 or 4 large service centers maintain the stuff. Also, they could give a half dozen systems to their best dealers on consignment. Hey, 100 pairs of DD 66000's could add $6,000,000 to their annual sales. It might be worth it. Why not think outside the box and try it? Take some risks! "Risk is the price of opportunity" (Chicago Board of Trade slogan).

[Shane Shuster]

They come with modesty panels.... ;)

It's to bad they are 2 feet too narrow and short.;)

DIY, I'm waiting for a guy with 4500+ posts to blaze a trail for me. So I don't have to mess around with a beta version. :)

[Zilch]

DIY, I'm waiting for a guy with 4500+ posts to blaze a trail for me.Heh.

I have on good authority that everything they build sounds the same.... :p

[scott fitlin]

We're insulted, is all.

But, concurrently, while we'd like the hear them, we're also quick to say we couldn't possibly afford them, or, if we could, we'd likely get an expensive car, instead.

JBL knows that. They go where the priorities kick straight down to the bottom line.

It's not JBL's fault we're what we are....I just dont know about that! If you go into Sound By Singer in NYC, they have the Wilsons, the B & W,s and all the other fancy " High End " brands of consumer Hi Fi Stereo gear. Granted the two channel market isnt what it once was, but, it is there, and they DO sell stuff.

So whats the problem? The problem began back at the time JBL or Harman, or whoever it was decided to put the JBL brand into chain stores like Circuit City, and Best Buy! The American market no longer percieves the JBL brand as High End! Once upon a time, JBL was considered a top speaker, although even back in the 70,s I always remember some LOVED JBL, others didnt!

Is this new Flagship from JBL the deal? Probably! Would I like to see a line of this model, and lower eschelon models sprout from it, and be available? Yes. But, JBL not us, has to do something about their marketing and image in this country IF they want to lead the way, again.

What I mean to say, is you just dont see B & W or Dynaudio, or D`Appolito, Magneplanar or Wilson computer speakers, or bargain $199.00 Circuit City specials! And yet, these brands, and others seem to be selling speakers, after all, they are still in buisiness!

I, for one, I like the way these new speakers look. How do they sound? Cant know until you hear em! Probably something to hear, I would imagine. But, Im not spending $60,000 on a pair of speakers, BUT, I am spending on a pair of some other brands just under 10G,s speakers, sorry guys, but they are good, and JBL doesnt have anything for me in this range, and Im not waiting two years for MAYBE they will have something, I want something NOW!

However, its only your imaginations that the JBL brand still doesnt hold weight here, people are snagging up all the vintage JBL off eBay they can get! I talk to the younger 20somethings, you wouldnt, or cant begin to believe how they love that old stuff, and the Altec stuff. One comment I always hear, is "WOW": they sound so like music! Nothing I hear thats made now sounds like this. Is it OUR fault people love vintage JBL? I was saying these things back in `93, long before this site was even online, I was a DJ in Miami Bch, at the now defunct, but Legendary Warsaw Ballroom! Even back then, we didnt like what we were hearing as compared to what we had and liked.

Im not negative, Im glad JBL still exists, and has parts for the things I use and love, I miss Altec and Gauss!

However, JBL chose to be who they became! Of course, in all fairness, if they DO make available speakers with trickle down technology from these D66000,s that are more affordable, and sound great, really great, people will hear it and want it, BUT, it HAS to be ALL THAT!

Obviously, Harman spends a great deal of money on its marketing, so, they have the neccesary resources to change the brand image to a higher profile image!

[MJC]

So whats the problem? The problem began back at the time JBL or Harman, or whoever it was decided to put the JBL brand into chain stores like Circuit City, and Best Buy! The American market no longer percieves the JBL brand as High End! Once upon a time, JBL was considered a top speaker, although even back in the 70,s I always remember some LOVED JBL, others didnt!

I think it was more when they dropped down to BB. At least when JBLs were at CC they were selling the 250Ti, the top of the line at the time.
Today, Fry's is at least carrying the Studio L series, they are not as good a PS or Arrays, but better than any JBLs sold in BB. And Tweeter is selling the PS PT800.
I know a local dealer, here, who used to sell Infinity, back when they still had the Overture III. Now he won't sell any Harman products, for what ever reasons he has.
But you're right, in that, the dealer base is no longer there, in this country.

[Titanium Dome]

Changing direction for a moment, here are a number of pictures from the main event. You can see placards depicting other high water marks in JBL's statement speaker tradition, plus a nice shot of the buffet!

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060908/jbl2.htm

Hopefully Don got some close ups of these.

[Titanium Dome]

It might make sense to put them in the thread.

[Titanium Dome]

Here's some expanded coverage of the event. See if you can find Waldo, I mean Don in the crowd. :p

Can you find him? I know you can.

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/detail/feature_87.html

If you find him, load the picture and identify him.

[scott fitlin]

Pic 6, 1st table, guy to the left with the black sport jacket and the beard?

[Ducatista47]

Yo.

[Ducatista47]

Looks like Harman and JBL want to remember Mr. Lansing the same way I do.

Clark in Peoria

[Titanium Dome]

Now we know for sure Don was there, and all dressed up, too.

[edgewound]

Now we know for sure Don was there, and all dressed up, too.

I noticed that too. I noticed that others weren't so well dressed...kind of an insult to the host's.

[Robh3606]

The L100 was cheaper than the L55 and the L55 was only a 2-way, where as the L100 was a 3-way, I never considered the L100 expensive. The L65 was more than the L55 and the L65 was over what I could afford at that time.
I've seen other speakers who's list prices were much more than any JBL. So to say JBLs are expensive, has to be put into perspective, compared to other brands.

Hello MJC

The L100 was more expensive than say a Advent,KLH,Jensen and many other large bookshelfs it was competing with at the time. That is one of the reasons Sum of the Parts pamphlets was put out. They were touting the superior build of the JBL's vs the competition which was Advents which were very popular at the same time.

Rob:)

[MJC]

The only speakers I looked at then was JBL, and that hasn't really changed. So I wouldn't know what a comparison to the L100 would be, back then.

[Rolf]

Hi.

I do not think you will get any other replyes on you post other than mine. I wonder why.:dont-know



I think the cost of high-end comonents has grown far more than the inflation adjusted purchasing power of the dollar. I remeber paying $1,872 for a pair of S8R's 38 years ago. That would be over $15,000 in today's dollars. Today's high-end speaker systems cost $40,000 to over $100,000 a pair. The graphic Controller was $465.00. Today a Mark Levinson preamp is $ 15,000. I think the cost structure is killing the high-end market. While there are plenty of Americans who can afford the prices, the dealers can't afford to floor plan the expensive inventory any more. Maybe JBL could sell their top-end systems to the public directly via Northridge and help 3 or 4 large service centers maintain the stuff. Also, they could give a half dozen systems to their best dealers on consignment. Hey, 100 pairs of DD 66000's could add $6,000,000 to their annual sales. It might be worth it. Why not think outside the box and try it? Take some risks! "Risk is the price of opportunity" (Chicago Board of Trade slogan).

You are quite right about this. If I remember correctly the price for a Paragon around 1980 was US$3.250. In Norway about NKR50.000. From that time my payment has increased by 4x, and the Paragon, if it was in production should cost NKR200.000, about US$28.000. I do not believe it is more expensive to build the new D66000 speaker.

I believe like you that the urge to constantly make more money from year to year, to grow bigger and bigger is the reason the hi-end is become extremely expensive. Others have stated that a company can't live of just selling hi-end, and I completely agree and know this.

BUT: To get things "back on track" the companies needs to find out if they want to sell 10 items and make x$, or to reduce the price and sell 20 items and make the same amount of $. The profit of selling more speakers with less income per unit is that there would be more free advertising from more people that can afford to buy them, and even more sales of the units.

Many here on the forum praise the new D66000. Maybe they are right to do that. It is after all a long time since JBL has introduced a "top of the line" speaker. I don't, because I want to hear it first, and find out if it is capable of producing the low notes, or if it is just an improved 9800 built for the Japanese market for their small apartments, and who needs a sub to satisfy my ears in that part of the frequency area. After all ... if I shall pay THAT much for a speaker I demand to hear a low note from a church organ.

[Zilch]

45 Hz to 50 kHz, -6 dB

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=124160&postcount=88

What it'll do with room and boundary reinforcement is indeterminate, as yet.... ;)

[MJC]

I think the cost of high-end comonents has grown far more than the inflation adjusted purchasing power of the dollar. I remeber paying $1,872 for a pair of S8R's 38 years ago. That would be over $15,000 in today's dollars. Today's high-end speaker systems cost $40,000 to over $100,000 a pair.)
There are alot of industries that have outpaced inflation, cost of heathcare, autos, housing, insurance, just to name a few.
From '77 ~ '81 the L212 stereo system was $2k. The PS, which is the latest generation of the L212, the PT800/PS1400 combo is about $5600 for a stereo setup. I'd say that might be a bit under the inflation rate of the last 30 years.
Generally speaking products in electronics get cheaper, except the high-end, which get more technologly advanced. But some of the tech does get filtered down to cheaper models. The K2s9800 was the first model to use an ultra tweeter(over 20k htz), that has filtered down to the Studio L Series.
But in the USA it seems only the very rich will spend big bucks on audio. Most people today want to spend less on a 5~7 channel system than I paid for the L212 in '79. Of coarse, they're also getting a lot less quality, at least as far as the speakers go, in that price range.

[Ian Mackenzie]

The Japanese are not real big on low bass, they prefer a more tight punchy bass sound. We tried a similar idea in project May with dual 1500AL's in MTM. Perhaps those who heard it running with a helper 1500AL can elaborate.

Ian

[BMWCCA]

There are alot of industries that have outpaced inflation, cost of heathcare, autos, housing, insurance, just to name a few.Finally, a topic I know something about. I agree with all your examples save autos. Cars today are actually a better deal in most cases than they were twenty years ago or even thirty. Take my obvious favorite, BMW: In the '80s a nicely equipped 2.7L 528e cost as much as $33,000 and a 3.5L 535is (mid-size models with two different engines) was nearly $40,000 and neither had a very long option list (automatic and leather). Today the new 3 Series is the same size, offers more equipment (incl. airbags, traction and stability control) as standard, gets better fuel economy, has more horsepower, is loaded with more safety equipment and emission controls, and yet a 2006 325i starts at just over $30k and tops out at just under $40k. By comparison to the Paragon prices versus D66000 today, I'd say cars have done very well.

Now if the Mt. Everest comes with ten airbags, Valvetronic throttles, ABS, DCS, ASC, 6-speed transmission, and Corner-Brake-Control, maybe they could justify $30k, but each? EACH! That's a bit much. Again with the analogy to what I understand, BMW sells the same models in the U.S. market with more equipment for often way less than that same model sells for in Europe. Our sweet-spot in the U.S. would be the high-end in Europe for many items and marketing demands the price-point be considered to provide necessary volume and market share. This philosophy has brought BMW a ten-fold increase in U.S. sales in the past twenty years to a sales-leadership position in the luxury car field. And some of that includes U.S. production plant output; not cheap Pacific rim labor. Maybe JBL should quit hiding their head in Japanese-market sand and take a lesson from other high-end retailers in the U.S. and figure out how to conquer this market...again! Halo models are fine in small volume at exhorbitant prices, but they're usually to provide a backdrop for sales of profitable high-end volume lines, those which we aren't sold here anymore and there's no place to even go to see or hear them. You can go look at a BMW M6 and drive one at 339 BMW retail centers across the United States. Even their low-volume motorcycle production is available to see and ride at over 140 locations. Where can I go to audition a "normal Everest" (K2) in the U.S. today?

[TimG]

Time for a reality check.
Of the people who are complaining about JBL not launching their $60,000 flagship speaker in the US, how many of you had intended to purchase them but have changed your mind because they were introduced in Japan instead?

Sales and recognition in the US high-end audio market, with some exceptions, seems to me to be based on placement on the Stereophile recommended components lists and purely subjective reviews in obscure audio journals, where they also review such things as magical Shakti stones and $30,000 speaker cables. For the most part, the people in the US who are going to spend $60-150,000 on speakers are doing it to impress their friends and business partners rather than basing their decisions on sound engineering principles and measurably superior sound quality and distortion levels.

Apparently people in the Japanese and European market value excellent engineering more than people in the US market, and most importantly are willing to pay for it, so JBL chose to build their new flagship speaker for a couple of people who will actually buy them. Honestly, $60,000 is probably too inexpensive for somebody who is considering buying a $175,000 pair of Wilson Audio Alexandrias, because it doesn't provide enough snob appeal.

For the US high-end market Harmon has apparently found the right style and price range with their Revel line of speakers, a brand name not diluted with 1" $25 computer speakers.

I would state confidently that the majority of consumers under 30 years of age, in the US, have no idea that JBL even produces high-end home speakers, or even have any interest in speakers bigger than the ones they use with their IPODs.

If you want JBL to offer high-end speakers in the US, put your money where your mouth is, stop buying antiquated vintage components, and buy some Project Arrays.

The reason I come here, and I'd guess a lot of other people do, is because I want the best sound I can get for my money, I like to make things with my hands, and I can't afford to buy state of the art new, but I can afford to approach it with slightly used parts that I can buy on ebay. I'm greatful that JBL offers any kind of replacement cones or diaphragms for 30 year old speaker parts that allow me to purse a hobby that I couldn't do with any other speaker brand that produces state of the art products. Obviously JBL is doing something right if they can still get money from management to even attempt to produce a flagship speaker in this century. How long do you think they would stay in business to provide your 2441 diaphragms if all they offered was $60,000 speakers to people like us?

[speakerdave]

How long do you think they would stay in business to provide your 2441 diaphragms if all they offered was $60,000 speakers to people like us?

About an hour.

[Ducatista47]

TimG, if you are saying Harman is kind to even acknowledge our existence, being the small somewhat odd group we are (as compared to the mainstream), I reluctantly agree 100%. Either they are very generous or somewhat sentimental or both, and we probably fit into the larger marketing scheme somehow so they can explain their feelings and actions to their bosses. Even Gina Harman has a boss.

Other than the ever increasing price of those diaphram and recone kits, I am pleased as punch with the situation as it exists. I always try to think the best of people, so I think there are some really nice people at JBL and Harman. To them, thank you, and I mean very much.

Clark in Peoria, in America's Heartland

PS If I were a cynical jerk and only thought about myself, I would probably think JBL sees Lansing Heritage as a free way to provide expensive customer service to owners of ancient equipment. Believe me, they wouldn't even mess with us - or talk to us - if that was their angle, unless they really cared about said owners and enthusiasts.

[scott fitlin]

I DO agree with one thing you say though. Just because it is priced out of reach for most, doesnt guarantee great sound. I have come across more than one affordable peice of gear that for wahtever reason, sounds good, many times, better than the Snob Appeal items.

Knowing sound, and how to use the right item for your particular application WILL usually garner superior results, than just buying the model made with " Premium Unobtanium "!

[scott fitlin]

Scotty, when do you think the last vintage sounding JBL's were marketed? I don't know because I haven't heard enough of this gear live in person. Is the pro side in the same shape as the home side? Do the current crop of installed sound units lack the classic JBL punch/clarity/dynamics 1-2-3?

Thanks, ClarkI`d say by `96, they were in full swing with the "NEW" sound.

Back in `93, many pros didnt paticularly like the 2226 with its improved and smoothed freq response, as compared to the 2225.

Back then, Meyer was still using alot of custom JBL and Gauss, and everyone always liked Meyer!

[MJC]

I don't have a problem with JBL premiering the Everest in Tokyo, I can't afford them. Well I could if I sold my house and then moved to somewhere REAL cheap, aren't many of those places left.

But, I do buy what I can afford, a pair Studio L 890s. I really like them, and I've still got my 7 channel L212 system. If I had the money, and the room I'd like to have a pair of Infinty Prelude MTS and a pair of PT800/PS1400. Actually, I do have the room, just not the money.:banghead:

[Titanium Dome]

Hey john,

It's no sin to live within your means. No need to buy the biggest and best to be a fan.

I'm impressed as hell with your willingness to take the Studio L Series L890 home and give it a fair trial. The fact that you kept 'em and publicly announced it here is proof of your commitment to your own personal experience. Gotta respect that.

Truth be told, a lot of forumites are either buying new JBL product or at least buying JBL parts for their restorations and projects. A dollar's a dollar on the bottom line.

When someone from JBL looks through these pages, I'm sure when he/she reads comments by me or some of the others on the Performance Series or reads your account of the L980, then they feel like "these people do support some of our higher level lines. It's still worth having consumer products above the entry level."

Sure, they'd like it if we all could buy K2s or the new Everest, but the reality is that those won't be readily available here if the Studio Ls, Performance Series, and Project Arrays aren't selling.

[MJC]

Hey john,
Sure, they'd like it if we all could buy K2s or the new Everest, but the reality is that those won't be readily available here if the Studio Ls, Performance Series, and Project Arrays aren't selling.
Well, we know the Studio Ls are available at Fry's, where else I don't know. And the PT800s at Tweeters, but not the subs. Got to have the subs to make the 800 work.
The Project Array, probably only from a Synthesis dealer. And we already know how many of them have showrooms(audition rooms), next to none.

So, its back to the same old story, to get sales, people have to be made aware of the product lines and have access to audition them. That's how it was in the '60s, '70s, '80s.

I have walked into hifi shops in those decades and heard Paragons playing, L212s, 250Ti. Those speakers were ALL TOP OF THE LINE at their respective times. And that is what needs to happen again.

If I were any good at sales and had the capital, I'd open up such a shop, with the Studio L, PS, PA, K2, Everest. Might as well throw in Revel, Lexicon, Mark Levison, Crown.

[Ian Mackenzie]

My understanding like many product launches is that it will be rolled out geographically and I am sure there will be plenty of media coverage throughout JBL's global distribution soon enough.

The facts are the facts and 80 % or more hi end is sold in Japan.

The actual HiFi media and magazine business is a bigger business than actual HiFi industry is supports in the U.S.A..and that's a fact..go figure it out. More money is spent on creating the illusion of Hi End audio than sales because they know people just want to believe it and they want to keep feeding that dream.

When over 90% of a nation's wealth is concentrated in the top 3 % of the population you don't have to had done a Harvard MBA to figure out there won't be too many units sales in mother America.

The reality is as Tim G hints most American's just want to read about it while in other countries where the GDP is averaged more broadly you will find more active buyers.

By way of example Len Wallis Audio in Sydney does very nicely selling HiEnd like Wilsons and Krell. Per capita of population Krell is very pleased. You would not think so but that is the case based on inside industry knowledge.

[scott fitlin]

Maybe thats true Ian, but, If the American consumer isnt buying much High End products these days, why do I see so many luxury vehicles on American roads these days? I mean to say that the American people are buying more cars and SUV,s and more expensive ones than I remember seeing 20yrs ago. I think over the last ten years, I see more top of the line vehicles on the road than I did 20yrs ago.

People are buying tons of home theater gear, whereas twenty years ago, they had a TV and a VCR, and that was enough.

In my neighborhood, people buy a home, these homes are upwards of $600,000 to 1mil each, then they tear em down, and rebuild their mini Hiltons, the BEST of everything inside them. They have two cars usually, the really nice one, and the family van. In my mind, people that can afford $300,000 to $450,000 home renovations ontop of the price they paid for the house, CAN afford premium speakers!

However, when I talk to people, and YES, there are guys that want a good 2 channel set up for their own listening, or something that just rocks so they can show it off, they DONT percieve JBL consumer as a High Eschelon product! They actually look at JBL as a PA rock band type of speaker. Sorry, but this is the truth, and I didnt create this perception.

Yet, the same guy goes out and buys a pair of B & W,s, a fancy Classe amp or something and loves to listen to his CD,s through it!

Who created the marketing image that the American public see,s? Not me! Who blitzed the American market with dime -a- dozen plastic speakers available at Best Buy? Besides Bose?

Does this mean JBL cant do it anymore? NO! But, if they want the Luxury segment of the American consumer market back, they have their work cut out, and just saying they can do it, aint enough! Nor will be making a few sets of top end speakers for the Imperial Japanese!

Everyone has the big flat screen TV now, they have high resolution digital movie and television playback gear, you should see some of the high end kitchens and furnishings in American homes.

American industry is selling many things, but the audio companies are the ones that downgraded us, and we, The American Consumer, switched brand loyalties because of it!

Just like people who can afford buy Japanese and European High End automobiles, they also buy European High End speakers! And a few High End Americans like Wilson enjoy success!

I hate to say this, but I had my father looking at the New D66000,s, and he is 70yrs old, he likes his stuff, and can afford what he wants, and its HIS time in life to enjoy. But, dad looked at them and said "But Scott, for 60grand I dont want plastic"! "I want wood and real materials"! And my dad, although not an audiophile, or soundman like me, he knows his woodwork, and what HE wants in something! FWIW, dad loved Widgets Wood Horns, and was sorry I didnt get em, cause he was going steal them from me to have me put together something. Even my mom had said she wouldnt mind having those in her house, they looked like fine furniture!

America is still spending big bucks on ourselves, and our luxuries and toys.

[scott fitlin]

Forgot to add, IF they get the American luxury segment of the market back, then EVERYONE else wants em too. That would be the opening they need to manufacture an entire line of similar but lower priced speakers to sell.

[John]

Maybe thats true Ian, but, If the American consumer isnt buying much High End products these days, why do I see so many luxury vehicles on American roads these days? I mean to say that the American people are buying more cars and SUV,s and more expensive ones than I remember seeing 20yrs ago. I think over the last ten years, I see more top of the line vehicles on the road than I did 20yrs ago.

People are buying tons of home theater gear, whereas twenty years ago, they had a TV and a VCR, and that was enough.

In my neighborhood, people buy a home, these homes are upwards of $600,000 to 1mil each, then they tear em down, and rebuild their mini Hiltons, the BEST of everything inside them. They have two cars usually, the really nice one, and the family van. In my mind, people that can afford $300,000 to $450,000 home renovations ontop of the price they paid for the house, CAN afford premium speakers!



Everyone has the big flat screen TV now, they have high resolution digital movie and television playback gear, you should see some of the high end kitchens and furnishings in American homes.


It,s All about easy credit, no money down no payments for??? Just wait till the shit hits the fan, it will not be nice.:barf: That,s when you will find out who owns what they drive,the house they live in,the toys they play with!!!

[Valentin]

i was away for the weekend and wow

the Eversts are very Nice

Jbl made a great statment speaker

It is intresting that this new mid driver could be used to build a realy nice two way a al1500 with on top 4" berylim mid hi driver

that horn go s flat from 700hz to 20000hz thats incredible and simple DIY proyect

[scott fitlin]

In many cases this is true, and in others it isnt.

However, lets just put it like this, you buy something on credt, the manufacturer is paid, they sold their goods and GOT paid. What you do on your end with your credit is on you, and while I agree with you, Im surprised at how many people are making it through, and continuing to buy new things.

As for the home markets in areas like mine, you have to be able to afford it, it isnt credit, you have to show means to get the mortgage. AND, before you just buy, it isnt that you may be able to afford the price of the home, CAN you afford the TAXES you have to pay EVERY year? THEY ARE DOING IT! You, or at least I dont see many foreclosures in my area. And then they completely remodel newely bought homes. And the North Shore is even higher priced, and higher flying!

So, IMHO, there is a market here, you have to know how to tap into it, and when you do.....

Rents and Condos in Manhattan are SKY HIGH OVERPRICED, but, in spite of it, Manhattan is full, they are paying what they have to to be there. Many high end stores selling the best of things from A - Z! People living here and paying, and paying, but, they are paying and buying!

[Fred Sanford]

I'm not going to go on too long about this, but I work for one of the largest custom AV companies in the country (~$14,000,000 in sales last year?) and used to work for an even bigger one (~$24,000,000 last year). We are BUSY. Always hiring more people, taking on more clients. We turn down any system lower than $100,000, it's just not worth our time. I manage at least a million dollars worth of projects at any given time, and have some clients that steadily give me $100,000+ a year just in upgrades and changes. At this level, there are honestly very few people that know exactly what they want- some know McIntosh or Wilson or Martin Logan or whatever, but far and away, most of them rely on...their decorator. We spec what we think the client will want, then battle for months with decorators that need a "look" to be acheived. You'd cry, all of you.

Anyway, the money's out there, one of my clients bought their $45 million dollar house for cash- no loan. I've got three apartments going in 50 Central Park South...there's still one apartment available if you're looking. Run the "monthly costs calculator", it's fun:

http://www.elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=729120 (http://www.elliman.com/Listings.aspx?ListingID=729120)

je (Yes, we are a JBL dealer, and spec their Synthesis systems all the time)

[Don C]

As for the home markets in areas like mine, you have to be able to afford it, it isnt credit, you have to show means to get the mortgage. AND, before you just buy, it isnt that you may be able to afford the price of the home, CAN you afford the TAXES you have to pay EVERY year?
You don't have to show that you can afford a house to buy one anymore, just get a loan with no docs, you can make up anything you like for income. I've been reading here:
link (http://www.anotherfuckedborrower.com/)

[boputnam]

...We spec what we think the client will want, then battle for months with decorators that need a "look" to be acheived. You'd cry, all of you. Fantastic for you to have a niche in audio that is working! I know a few engineers that moved their practice to Las Vegas following where the money went, and are doing elaborate HT installs and the like. Pity the Interior Decorators have so much "say", and that the buyers leave so much of the choice to them. We agreed "the 4345's simply had to fit", and did the room around them.

Let us know if anyone specs the DD66000 - we would love for this to be a success for JBL!

[Fred Sanford]

We do get some assertive individuals (and the real music industry "listening rooms" are acoustics first, aesthetics second- often partnering with http://www.wsdg.com/), but it is disheartening how much the WAF/designer enters into some could-have-been-nice systems.

I just finished a three-year-long ~$400,000 job with 18 rooms or so, and no matter what dimensions I gave the architects, the millworkers made the openings the sizes they wanted. The largest speakers I got into that job are Monitor Audio Bronze Centers. $400,000 on the AV, $4,000,000 on the millwork...we lose.

je

[clmrt]

Enough to turn a guy into a Socialist. Whatever that is.:blink:

[Ian Mackenzie]

I agree there is more to it than meets the eye and people have priorities: In the USA the car comes before anything else and financing a car is easy. Most people dont own the car or the house, the bank or finance co does. I work in major bank myself, its actually not as simple as it sounds to fund big ticket items like a big wide screen let along $70K worth of speakers other than the credit card, banks don't approve home loans to buy expensive HiFi's, they have credit rules.

Self made miillionaires, movies stars have very different VALs (values, attitudes and lifestyles)and demographics, they live the high life but perhaps not Hi End.

It would be very interesting to talk to a HiFi retailer in Japan and ask who and why do they buy.

[grumpy]

Hey Don,

:applaud:
Nice use of B&W re day 3!

In camera setting? (forgot if you said what your current camera was... D200?)

-grumpy

[Hoerninger]

Mr. McRitchie,

lovely pictures of day 3! Next time /year(s) audiostreaming please :bouncy:;):D
____________
Peter

[hjames]

Gorgeous photos Don - I can tell you are having quite a blast.
Thanks for sharing all of this with us - stunning stuff!

More more!

[scott fitlin]

WOW, what serene country side. Great way to spend an afternoon.

Now, how about a picture with YOU, The "Don" himself in it?

:thmbsup:

[Robh3606]

Hello Don

Where were you on day 3??? That place looks really cool!! What's with all the JBL electronics and the vinyl???

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

Hello Don

Where were you on day 3??? That place looks really cool!! What's with all the JBL electronics and the vinyl???

Rob:)I was diggin them 2395,s and 2402,s myself!

:D

[Mr. Widget]

Hopefully Don will fill us in on what in the world we have been looking at... the obvious comment is, WOW! ...but I hardly feel that does it justice. Those collections of vintage and not so vintage gear are stunning. I hope these are storage rooms, but I get the feeling that is not the case... I guess room acoustics hasn't really entered into the mix yet. :D

But the gear... damn, there is some mighty fine stuff in those collections.


Widget

[Hoerninger]

For me it looks like old Klangfilm.
Btw: Vintage Vanguard by www.gokudo.co.jp/index2.htm ?
___________
Peter

[scott fitlin]

Hopefully Don will fill us in on what in the world we have been looking at... the obvious comment is, WOW! ...but I hardly feel that does it justice. Those collections of vintage and not so vintage gear are stunning. I hope these are storage rooms, but I get the feeling that is not the case... I guess room acoustics hasn't really entered into the mix yet. :D

But the gear... damn, there is some mighty fine stuff in those collections.


WidgetAnd people think Im nuts with audio, :rotfl: they havent seen anything yet!

But, yes, WOW, all that really classic vintage American audio. And it looks like it is being USED, to do what it is supposed to do. So cool.

Good picture of Don, too!

Oh, almost forgot, the food on the grill looked great too. Ill have to settle for Benihana, a trip to Japan is a ways off yet! :applaud:

[Ducatista47]

Taking and printing photographs was my chief passion for many years. These days looking at them has replaced that. There are so many great images here, I can't comment generally without babbling!

Not to single anything out, but the black & white set of Basie (Jazz Spot) has instantly become my favorite photo essay, ever. This would be a compliment, Don, as I have held in my two insignifigant hands and savored at length the portfolios of Edward Weston, printed by his own very signifigant hands. I also grew up with Life and Look magazines and became a college trained artist-photographer.

Please let us know if any hi-res files of the images might be made available. I want to cover my walls with the Basie set.

Clark in Peoria

[Titanium Dome]

Looks like a dream. Cozy place, intimate setting, good companions, and a little booze. A fantastic time for sure.

[Titanium Dome]

Love the Buddha. Love the gardens. Love the pretty Japanese women. Even in the absence of JBLs, life can be sublime.

[Titanium Dome]

Hey, HQ! Amazing store, amazing collection--hey there's Don. Smile, buddy. :p

Look at how clean the streets are. LA is a pig sty by comparison.

[Zilch]

That's a lotta gear for running just one jazz club speaker, no? ;)

[Guido]

Thank you very much Don for that beautiful insight.

I would love to have some more "story" about that unbelievable Jazz Bar.
Hearing old vinyl on vintage JBL :bouncy: WOW!

[scott fitlin]

Time for a reality check.
Of the people who are complaining about JBL not launching their $60,000 flagship speaker in the US, how many of you had intended to purchase them but have changed your mind because they were introduced in Japan instead?

Sales and recognition in the US high-end audio market, with some exceptions, seems to me to be based on placement on the Stereophile recommended components lists and purely subjective reviews in obscure audio journals, where they also review such things as magical Shakti stones and $30,000 speaker cables. For the most part, the people in the US who are going to spend $60-150,000 on speakers are doing it to impress their friends and business partners rather than basing their decisions on sound engineering principles and measurably superior sound quality and distortion levels.

Apparently people in the Japanese and European market value excellent engineering more than people in the US market, and most importantly are willing to pay for it, so JBL chose to build their new flagship speaker for a couple of people who will actually buy them. Honestly, $60,000 is probably too inexpensive for somebody who is considering buying a $175,000 pair of Wilson Audio Alexandrias, because it doesn't provide enough snob appeal.

For the US high-end market Harmon has apparently found the right style and price range with their Revel line of speakers, a brand name not diluted with 1" $25 computer speakers.

I would state confidently that the majority of consumers under 30 years of age, in the US, have no idea that JBL even produces high-end home speakers, or even have any interest in speakers bigger than the ones they use with their IPODs.

If you want JBL to offer high-end speakers in the US, put your money where your mouth is, stop buying antiquated vintage components, and buy some Project Arrays.

The reason I come here, and I'd guess a lot of other people do, is because I want the best sound I can get for my money, I like to make things with my hands, and I can't afford to buy state of the art new, but I can afford to approach it with slightly used parts that I can buy on ebay. I'm greatful that JBL offers any kind of replacement cones or diaphragms for 30 year old speaker parts that allow me to purse a hobby that I couldn't do with any other speaker brand that produces state of the art products. Obviously JBL is doing something right if they can still get money from management to even attempt to produce a flagship speaker in this century. How long do you think they would stay in business to provide your 2441 diaphragms if all they offered was $60,000 speakers to people like us?Umm, Tim, with all due respect, you did see the pictures of Dons Tokyo trip with the stores with all the Vintage antiquated JBL and Altec stuff, and the bar with the vintage JBL stuff, etc, etc, etc!

I knew alot of our eBay items of vintage JBL and Altec were and are winding up over there, but now I know how much they really do love it!

What makes the Japanese "audiophiles" and " connoisuers " for adoring vintage American audio, and Americans "cheapskates" for for buying ebay antiquated items, in search of the inexpensive DIY project?

Or maybe, they are really seeking to hear what they have heard is really good. This doesnt mean that nothing made today is good, just that what used to be made was also good, and in many cases quite special.

All I can say is I flipped when I saw the store with ALL the Altec, JBL, even a Gauss, all the vintage American tube stuff, and not just ANY stuff, the REAL McCoy! The Iconic, I have never seen one, let alone heard one, I was always told what we had in the 70,s came from what James B Lansing did way back when.

I find it incredible that the Japanese market has such a lust and thirst for the classic American Audio items. I know what some of that stuff can sound like. Just a few watts of the right tube power and the right high efficiency speakers, and you hear something that sounds like REAL music, thats what it is they know! Just like I know.

I want to go shopping in Japan and rescue some of that stuff! :rotfl:

[edgewound]

Incredible photo essay, Don. Makes me want to go experience Japanese hospitality.

It looks like a rediscovery of Lansing roots and lasting quality, and how it's appreciated overseas.

[scott fitlin]

Incredible photo essay, Don. Makes me want to go experience Japanese hospitality.

It looks like a rediscovery of Lansing roots and lasting quality, and how it's appreciated overseas.Absolutely, it really does make me want to go there. I also want to go to that hibachi style restaurant, the food looked good. Really good.

:D

[Thomax]

OK I'm moving to Japan ! :D

These pictures are wonderful, thanks for sharing them ! :thmbsup:

[Titanium Dome]

(snip)
All I can say is I flipped when I saw the store with ALL the Altec, JBL, even a Gauss, all the vintage American tube stuff, and not just ANY stuff, the REAL McCoy! The Iconic, I have never seen one, let alone heard one, I was always told what we had in the 70,s came from what James B Lansing did way back when.

I find it incredible that the Japanese market has such a lust and thirst for the classic American Audio items. I know what some of that stuff can sound like. Just a few watts of the right tube power and the right high efficiency speakers, and you hear something that sounds like REAL music, thats what it is they know! Just like I know.

I want to go shopping in Japan and rescue some of that stuff! :rotfl:

Yeah, the loot in there was amazing.:yes:

I think your last comment overlooks the fact that that gear has already been rescued. ;)

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, the loot in there was amazing.:yes:

I think your last comment overlooks the fact that that gear has already been rescued. ;)I know. :D

Ill say this, when I walked in my place this morning, I looked around, I have no reason to be jealous. I have my very own functioning, working museum of classic American Audio. And my system is GIGANTIC!

Pictures will be up on the Eldorado thread by the weekend, and I really have to say what fantastic pictures Don takes. Makes one feel the place as well as see it, very excellent photography. Even the people in the pictures seem really happy. Nice to see people having such a good time. Refreshing, especially after yesterdays homage to 9/11.

Looking at all the vintage gear, both in peoples homes, stores, and working buisinesses makes me feel very lucky and fortunate to have what I do. Not to mention that I know what it is I have. How many got rid of what they thought was just old junk? At least it seems a good deal of it survived and went to where it is appreciated!

Now, being something of a train geek also, I would definitely be going for a ride on the bullet train, they look hot.

Outstanding photography, of an outstanding trip, Don, you actually got me out of Coney Island for a bit, I was there, or at least I felt like I was.

:D

[MJC]

Or maybe, they are really seeking to hear what they have heard is really good. This doesnt mean that nothing made today is good, just that what used to be made was also good, and in many cases quite special.

The fact that speaker drivers and crossovers continue to improve, doesn't change the fact that if a speaker system was a very good system when it came to market, say 30 years ago, its still a very good system today.
It only the garbage speakers that don't last.

[Don McRitchie]

I've added some comments on the Day 3 and 5 threads. Unfortunately, I have run out of time before adding all of the comments that I would like. I have to prepare to leave Japan in the next few hours, so its off to pack for me. I should be posting again in a day or two, depending on how much sleep I need when I get back.

Don

[MJC]

Don, thanks for the great pics of the premier of the DD66000 and of Tokyo.
Have a good trip home.

[Mr. Widget]

I've added some comments on the Day 3 and 5 threads. Unfortunately, I have run out of time... Thanks again Don!
I know we all wish we could have been there with you, but you have done a wonderful job making us feel as though we were.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Excellent. I now know I AM NOT crazy! For the last three years I myself buy vintage things of the type I use that I know cant be repaired because of parts NLA! There ARE others out there like ME!

I like that guy Swifty from the Basie Jazz Bar!

Really cool, thanks for sharing, this has been great.

:)

[Robh3606]

Thanks for sharing this with us!! Have a safe trip home.

Rob:)

[Steve K]

As I write this, Don is probably tucked in his airplane seat headed home. It was a real pleasure to have had the opportunity to meet Don in Tokyo and spend some time together. As one can see from the pictures he's posted, his Japanese hosts, both Harman Japan and Stereo Sound have really made him feel welcome, and I could tell that he was really enjoying his first visit to Japan from the conversations we had. On a personal note, without his suggestion I don't know if I ever would have made the visit to meet Doc Mikami at his clinic/museum in Yokosuka (about 20 miles southwest of Tokyo) on my own. Later that day I invited him to a yakitori restaurant in Kagurazaka, which is one of the old entertainment districts where there still are left a few geisha houses. Although I wasn't able to arrange a geisha party for Don, I made sure he tasted some rare sake, prepared cold as this is the way to really savor the taste.

I suggested to Don that he organize a LH trip to Japan one of these days. I'll be more than happy to help with the itenerary and entertainment. I'm sure that there are other Japan-based members who would love to meet fellow members and just have a good time.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Don for taking the time to meet me. It's always nice to make new friends.

Steve K
Tokyo

[duaneage]

I lived in Asia for years and spent a lot of time living in Tokyo. I hae been to the stores Don showed and it brought back a lot of memories. I really enjoyed his pictures and thought about the friends I left and the memories I still have. Japan is a beautiful place and incredible to visit.

Thanks Don for a wonderful series

[spkrman57]

I spent 1982 - 1984 in Yokosuka, but missed a lot of good stuff as audio was not my priority back then.

Wish I could afford to go back for a visit.......:(

Ron

[Don McRitchie]

I have finished annotating all of the picture threads and have added a thread for the last day - Day 6.

Don

[boputnam]

I have finished annotating all of the picture threads and have added a thread for the last day - Day 6.Thanks, Don.

Great texture and color composition in all your photos - even the "quick" shots. They are not only about the place, but about the people, daily life, their industry and all. Thanks for the effort, and congratulations again on the personal recognition in getting invited by JBL. Fantastic, especially at this time...

[Phil H]

Don,
You posted wonderful pictures and commentary. I hope you had a great time. Thank you for sharing this with us.

[Titanium Dome]

Say Don

When you were in the high end shops, did you get the chance to listen to anything, JBL or otherwise? If so, can you share your subjective opinions on any that impressed you?

During all the excitement about the new Eveerst, was there any discussion about the K2 and its future?

Speaking of the Everest and K2, can you comment on similarities/differences besides the obvious?

With all that heat and humidity (looks wet in most pictures), have your clothes dried out yet? ;)

Thanks for an interesting photo journal. :applaud:

[clmrt]

Very clean place it seems. No thugs.

[OLDGEN]

GOD BLESS DON!:applaud:

[JBLnsince1959]

GOD BLESS DON!:applaud:

Really, what a wonderful picture story. I too would be interested in any comments about the sound of any speakers you got a chance to listen too.