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Ian Mackenzie
08-20-2006, 12:46 AM
I seek opinions/thoughts on upgrading a DVD player.

My current player is a Pioneer 626..not sure of the USA model..about 6 years old. I primarily play vinyl for serious 2 channel listening and use the Pioneer for all DVD movies / concert music Dvd's in 5.1. But I would like to have the CD play back better.

I know the Pioneer is a but colored tonally..the typical somewhat Pioneer bloated bass but otherwise quite listenable.

The thing is it posses a few questions about some options.

1. Do I look for a whole DVD new player.
2. Find a dedicated CD player
3. Find a Dac what will do 2 channel and work as a 5.1 decoder.
4. Find a HT control centre/preamp/decoder.
5. Wait for a Blue Ray capable player

Personally I am inclined to think chasing a mutifunction player (1) or a control centre that is affordable (4) that will satisfy an absolute best sound from CD is wishful thinking. That leaves options (2) , (3) and (5).

I have been researching the whole CD sound quality thing and sent an enquiry to Charles Altmann regards the JISCO device (JITTER SCRAMBLING DECORRELATION) as a means of potentially cleaning up the digital output of the Pioneer which I use as a transport for the decoder in my Kenwood HT amp (used as a preamp switch centre and decoder only).

Go to this link for an explanation. its not exactly a cheap device but if it can improve the digital decoding of CD , DTS and DVDA it might be worthwhile.
http://www.altmann.haan.de/jitter/english/engc_navfr.html

Here is a review link

http://www.altmann.haan.de/jitter/english/engc_navfr.html

The attraction DAC is also discussed here:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/attraction.htm

Regars option (3) another interesting discussion of DAC's is here in a review of the Lavry Blue, this is a Pro product with a good reputation. They have a 2 channel unit designed for home use , the DA2002 and I have sent an enquiry to the local agent. None of these Dacs are cheap but they do appear to address the issues of jitter and ultimate sound quality. What is also interesting is that a good Dac will sound virtually identical on a so called poor transport as it would a good transport because of manner in which the digital information is processed. Lesser Dacs have a problem here and hence we have the whole audiophile difference thingy happening.

http://www.proaudioreview.com/april04/Lavry.shtml

http://www.lavryengineering.com/index_html.html

I am interested in other members practical experiences with the above.

Ian

Rolf
08-20-2006, 06:41 AM
I seek opinions/thoughts on upgrading a DVD player.



Hi Ian. My recommendation is to get a top of the line DVD player. When I say "top of the line" I do not mean highest price. A combination of DVD and CD that does both best is in my opinion not made.

I use a Sony DVD player on a Thomson 52" back projector. Not really expensive, about US$ 1500. (DVD)This unit gives me a picture and sound quality that is good enough for me, but I am not so interested in looking at movies as I was before. If I was going to use a projector on a 10ft (3meter) screen, I know I have to buy a better and more expensive DVD player to get a good picture.

For 2ch listening I use a Burmester CD player. This is a very expensive unit, but 2ch listening is my primary use, and the price justifies itself because of the quality of the sound this unit are capable of.

As you say, and I know (as sad as it is) you play mostly vinyl, so you should put all of the money in a hi-end DVD player.

Tom Brennan
08-20-2006, 09:37 AM
I recently got a Sony 995 400 disc "jukebox" player. It upscales (for what it's worth) and has very good picture and sound.

However it's main virtue is that I'm enjoying my DVD collection more, it's so easy to scan movies now----watch a little of this and a little of that, jump around from watching the end of Zifferelli's Romeo and Juliet to Mitzi singing "Wonderful Guy" in South Pacific to Cagney going to the chair in Angels With Dirty Faces. So while there are no doubt better looking and sounding players I know of no player that is more enjoyable.

For my needs and wants anyway. In any case it's a player to consider.

porschedpm
08-20-2006, 11:49 AM
Hi, Ian. A lot depends on what your own preferences, situation and budget are. IMHO, If you're looking for the absolute best CD sound available, it's going to be with a dedicated CD player, but expect to pay prices starting at $3,000 or more (note: all prices shown in US Dollars). In this product class and price range, the circuitry doesn't have to perform dual duty for both DVD and CD's and the presumption is the manufacturer has not skimped on the choice of components or inboard DACs. So if this level of price/performance exceeds your budget, then the next question becomes where is that point of diminishing returns that gets you to say 98 or 99% of that absolute best performance but falls within your budget. Personally I feel that spending around $1,600 +/- $400 on a dedicated CD will probably get you to about 95 to 98% of absolute best performance. This may be acceptable especially if you're using vinyl for your most critical listening.

I myself prefer a multifunction unit because of space considerations. But theoretically anyway, a dedicated CD player should sound better than a multifunction unit costing the same amount. But that may not be a fair comparison because if you spend your entire budget on a dedicated CD player, you'll still need something to play your DVDs and multichannel music on. In your case Ian, your Pioneer may serve you just fine for that purpose. But if you're looking to upgrade your DVD sound quality and features also, you probably should be looking for a multifunction unit. Since you're not having to buy separate units, I believe you could justify spending a little more on a multifunction unit vs the dedicated CD player. So as an estimate, spending $2000 +/- $500 on a multifunction unit may get you to within 95 to 98% of that absolute best performance.

When it comes to outboard DACs, I feel they serve a valuable purpose improving CD and DVD players in the under $1,000 range. By adding an outboard DAC you can get your $400 DVD player to sound like a $1,600 unit. But you'll be spending $1,000 or more to get there. IMO your better off going with a $1,600 unit with decent inboard DACs to begin with. Unless the inboard DACs are inferior to begin with, my opinion is that adding an outboard DAC to a player that has better than average inboard DACs already is not going to improve the sound, and may have the potential of degrading the sound. Also the outboard DACs won't convert a multichannel digital signal to multichannel analog output. It will only output to 2ch analog which may or may not be an issue for you.

Blu Ray does seem to be picking up momentum, but as with all emerging technology, the cost of players is still too high, IMO. I'm sure we'll see the prices start to drop over the next year. I only know enough about Blu Ray to be dangerous. You'll probably want to do your own research and listening tests to determine if it's worth waiting for and the extra cost.

I'm sure none of the above is anything you haven't already thought about. But I hope maybe these ramblings would have provoked further thought to help you in your decision.

Ed S.

Ian Mackenzie
08-20-2006, 05:05 PM
Thankyou all for your thoughs.

I might see if I can pursuade a dealer to loan me a better multifunction player and a dedicated player and do some careful evaluations. I am aso about to adopt a far more powerful high calibre amp so I am look to make sure the front end is as good as I can afford.

What I have at the moment is nothing to cry about but when I play a nice CD (Blue label or Chesky) its it really makes you wonder how much further you can go.

When I was organising the crossover project with Ed it was quite surprising just how good a nice CD recording can sound. To me Cd still trails DVD DTS by a margin so I am keen to see if its (A) the media or (B) the player that is the issue.

For me DVD DTS is about being hammered home like the Maxwell poster and with JBLs its an event type of thing, nothing particularly delicate but fun all the same. Some disks like K. D Lang's Live by request and quite breathe taking and very well produced so I suppose I have a soft spot of DVD DTS music disks too. If they were all recorded like tnat and like Hell Freeze over I would listen to nothing else.

Lately I have been too busy to play too much vinyl, but when I do its sort of an easier and more life like sound to listen too over CD. I use a Fidelity Research arm and cartridge and Passlabs Pearl phone preamp so I am a spoilt brat in that department.

I read in reviews however that a certain few affordable CD players and Dacs can approach the the vinyl thing.

The Rega Appollo CD player ($1500RRP) is one while the Lavry HD10 Dac ($1700 RRP), formerly the Rega Planet was one of the better buget hi end players while the Benchmark has been the most popular Dac until the DA10 has over taken it with user reviews and general feedback.

I know nothing of the better mutifunction players so I suppose this is were I should start my investigations

Both the idea of a dedicated player and a better mutifunction player have strong appeal. some even player HHCD , DVD A and SACD. I will also have to weigh up the extent of me listening preferenced and how I allocate it to the limited precious listening time I have available.

yggdrasil
08-21-2006, 07:55 AM
Thought I'd chime in with a few of my thoughts.

The DVD-technology is still very young. There are significant improvements each year while it gets cheaper. This is a factor against major investments in this technology.

The CD-technology is far more mature.

The manufacturers are saving as much as they can in the driving mechanism, giving it a relatively short expected life span. The laser do not improve with age, actually it becomes worse rather quick. These factors indicates a separation of driving mechanism and DAC is a good investment.

I would not do large investments into the driving mechanisms. Only enough to ensure it can read the discs. 0 is 0 and 1 is 1 - as long as the disc is read correct it is the DAC that makes difference.

Keep us posted.

Hoerninger
08-21-2006, 08:42 AM
Ian,

do you know "Pioneer DV-575A, -578A, -585A, -588A and -696AV Hires SACD and DVD-A digital output DIY-Kit" http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/HiresAudio_E.htm
It was mentioned in this forum, but I can't find my link anymore.
____________
Regards
Peter

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 02:25 PM
Very interesting.

I tend to agree about drive mechanisms. Also I have to weight up if its reasonable to expect pristine audio from a DVD and a muilti format player. I called a dealer yesterday and put the question to him about multiformat players and he said he could sell me one but the format wars continue...change is happening. He ask me some questions about my system and recommend these player of I want the best audio quality. His analogy was how do you like your burgers ad I think this is the point.

http://www.vincentaudio.com.au/prdct_cd-s3.htm

or

http://www.vincentaudio.com.au/prdct_cd-s6mk2.htm

but this would not be as good

http://www.vincentaudio.com.au/prdct_sdv-3.htm


Also the split of the audio medium between CD audio/hi-end audio goes all the way down stream to the speakers ie 5.1 versus stereo as this is another issue that has been nagging me regards inclusion of a centre channel. The fact is there are only a few SACD disks and while I like the idea of a centre channel I have some reservations about 5.1 Dolby digital or DTS being of pristine audio quality but you need them for for getting the best out of home entertainment so they are part of the system but perhaps not part of the pristine audio system as such.

Can one expect the best audio from these other formats. No I don't think so.Therefore following this reasoning I have to work out the choice of either a dedicated CD player or external Dac and perhaps wait for the format wars to settle and then upgrade my DVD player.


Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 04:54 PM
I think Ed has nailed the buying decision process:


Hi, Ian. A lot depends on what your own preferences, situation and budget are. IMHO, If you're looking for the absolute best CD sound available, it's going to be with a dedicated CD player, but expect to pay prices starting at $3,000 or more (note: all prices shown in US Dollars). In this product class and price range, the circuitry doesn't have to perform dual duty for both DVD and CD's and the presumption is the manufacturer has not skimped on the choice of components or inboard DACs. Agree and I think its a bit over the top.


So if this level of price/performance exceeds your budget, then the next question becomes where is that point of diminishing returns that gets you to say 98 or 99% of that absolute best performance but falls within your budget. Personally I feel that spending around $1,600 +/- $400 on a dedicated CD will probably get you to about 95 to 98% of absolute best performance. Agreed. This may be acceptable especially if you're using vinyl for your most critical listening. Agreed

I myself prefer a multifunction unit because of space considerations. But theoretically anyway, a dedicated CD player should sound better than a multifunction unit costing the same amount. But that may not be a fair comparison because if you spend your entire budget on a dedicated CD player, you'll still need something to play your DVDs and multichannel music on. In your case Ian, your Pioneer may serve you just fine for that purpose. But if you're looking to upgrade your DVD sound quality and features also, you probably should be looking for a multifunction unit. Since you're not having to buy separate units, I believe you could justify spending a little more on a multifunction unit vs the dedicated CD player. So as an estimate, spending $2000 +/- $500 on a multifunction unit may get you to within 95 to 98% of that absolute best performance. That is possible.

When it comes to outboard DACs, I feel they serve a valuable purpose improving CD and DVD players in the under $1,000 range. By adding an outboard DAC you can get your $400 DVD player to sound like a $1,600 unit. But you'll be spending $1,000 or more to get there. I tend to agree. IMO your better off going with a $1,600 unit with decent inboard DACs to begin with. Unless the inboard DACs are inferior to begin with, my opinion is that adding an outboard DAC to a player that has better than average inboard DACs already is not going to improve the sound, and may have the potential of degrading the sound. Also the outboard DACs won't convert a multichannel digital signal to multichannel analog output. Correct. I currently use the processor only of a good HT amp.It will only output to 2ch analog which may or may not be an issue for you.Yes this requires more investigation and is a grey area.

Blu Ray does seem to be picking up momentum, but as with all emerging technology, the cost of players is still too high, IMO. I'm sure we'll see the prices start to drop over the next year. I only know enough about Blu Ray to be dangerous. You'll probably want to do your own research and listening tests to determine if it's worth waiting for and the extra cost.

I'm sure none of the above is anything you haven't already thought about. But I hope maybe these ramblings would have provoked further thought to help you in your decision.

Ed S.

I tend to think the market kind of rules the preferences of what people end up buying and this is fine for the average Joe blow. Within that market there is often an outfit that sells a very good product at affordable prices. I tend to think The Rega Apollo CD player is one and the Lavry HD10 dac is another (subject to audition but the reviews tell the story)

The problem is I have a relatively refined system (yes I am looking at Tads..a lousy joke!!) so I have two choices. As Ed mentions buy a $2000 mutifunction player that I can live giving me 95% of what I want or go the dedicated player route for $1500 or a Dac $1000-1500.

It would be interesting to get Ken's impressions having trialed the Benchmark Dac 1 and now back to the Sony via the DEQX.

Can anyone recommend a $2000 -+ muitfunction player??

When I get more organised at home I will try and arrange an audition of some units.

Thankyou all for your thoughts.

Ian

hapy._.face
08-21-2006, 05:02 PM
Can anyone recommend a $2000 -+ muitfunction player??




ModWright Truth via the Sony 9100 (http://www.modwright.com/whats_new/index.php?story_id=58).

also:
http://www.modwright.com/products/index.php?product_id=23 (http://www.modwright.com/products/index.php?product_id=23)

You can get just the "basic" truth mod for around $2500 (including the unit of course).
Though I haven't heard the latest flagship modded, the reviews are insanely favorable on the older NS999ES models.


RE Rega:
Apollos may be quite a bit better than the Planets, but my old Planet sure left a lot to be desired. Overly warm bottom end which comes off sounding boomy. It also lacked a believable high end. Sugary mids and it looked cool- that's about it. Again, Apollos may be a lot better.

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 05:17 PM
Very interesting, it all adds up but then so does buying a dac and a multfuntion player.

I really need to hear some of this stuff go.

Thanks for the link.

Ian

hapy._.face
08-21-2006, 05:26 PM
Remember- this mod (like most good DAC's- Benchmark, etc) can function as your pre, too. You can even alter the output gain! Run that juice straight into your PASS LAB beauty. Ahh....

What are you using for speakers? (joking!)

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 05:27 PM
I was reading the Bio on the Lavry www site.

He previously worked with Apogee on their digital range and designed some OEM stuff for Mark Levinson and some other guys. Charles Altmann, although a different breed has gone about unravelling the digital puzzel in a similar manner

There are a lot if mis truths and assumptions about digital audio that are just plain wrong. These mods may help in imperfect design but I would prefer to buy something done right first time right of the bat. Screwing arounnd with the analogue outputs is easy, thats the icing on the cake.

hapy._.face
08-21-2006, 05:39 PM
These mods may help in imperfect design but I would prefer to buy something done right first time right of the bat. Screwing arounnd with the analogue outputs is easy, thats the icing on the cake.


Well, you certainly know more about this than I do, Ian. I too would prefer to buy something done right the first time. Unfortunately, it seems those products are priced WAY out of my price range. If you find it- please let me know! ;)

I purchased both of these Sony units- a used 999 (for HT) and a new 9100 (for audio playback only). I honestly cannot tell any difference in the two when it comes to DVD playback- but the 9100 has excellent audio right out of the box. I can split hairs, but I can certainly live with it as-is too. The 9100 has a clean, crisp, very polished air about it. The lows are focused and muscular and all music sounds like music. It lacks some of the grace I've heard in higher end models and it doesn't have the favorable flavors they have either. It's quite honest but perhaps a little too honest in the way of glare. I've been told a few more hours will tame it down- but it's not distracting and is a MUCH better improvement over my previous spinner.

My point? You may really like the 9100 in stock form. I do. I'd definately add that to your short demo list.
Good luck!!

Ken Pachkowsky
08-21-2006, 07:06 PM
It would be interesting to get Ken's impressions having trialed the Benchmark Dac 1 and now back to the Sony via the DEQX.

Ian

I sold the Benchmark to buy the first Deqx. I must say as Dac's go, the Benchmark out performed the Deqx by a small margin.

I find it odd to be suggesting an option for you but what the hell. I have a Pioneer 578A that has an DIY Mod available that after some research turns out is quite extraordinary. I have spoken with 2 fellows whom are quite impressed with the results comparing it to the likes of Wadia and Bermeister to name a couple. Not bad company considering the total investment player and all is around 400.00 bucks. I have one kit on order.

http://freerider.dyndns.org (http://freerider.dyndns.org)

I admit this is pretty inexpensive but what the hell.....to me its worth the gamble.

Ken

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 09:17 PM
Thanks Ken,

I find it useful to share experiences when it comes to buying a box...Cd players are not diy friendly although there are some pure diy kits incl transport around..I don't have time for that!

Thanks again.

Ian

porschedpm
08-21-2006, 10:34 PM
I tend to think the market kind of rules the preferences of what people end up buying and this is fine for the average Joe blow. Within that market there is often an outfit that sells a very good product at affordable prices. I tend to think The Rega Apollo CD player is one and the Lavry HD10 dac is another (subject to audition but the reviews tell the story)



Interesting that you mentioned the Rega Apollo. In the latest, Sept 06 issue of Stereophile, Sam Tellig compared the $995 Rega Apollo to a $2000 CD player made by Atoll. Tellig wrote "....I heard more resolution from the Rega Apollo-more air, ambience, space, more low level detail. I thought the bass was tighter, better defined, and the sound had a superior sense of pace overall. I'd hate to be a manufacturer competing with the Rega; it's a killer..."

BTW the same issue of Stereophile also has a review of the JBL Studio L880 Speakers.

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2006, 10:58 PM
I will have to wait and see.

Looking at the SACD capable players it would appear that unless you have a serious SACD collection its mute and quality of either CD or SACD would depend entirly on the on board dac and output stage. I gather most players only output digital in pcm which is what Kens post was referring to.

Ian

pentictonklaus
08-24-2006, 09:37 AM
HI Ian !

I just ordered a Sony DVP NS 90 V combo player from JR.com New York.
This combo player is cheap at $ 179 US. I did listen to this player at my neighbours studio and was impressed with the unit for it's price. It does have a digital output for regular cd playback ,so it can be used as a transport with outboard DAC. I did listen to a 5.0 SACD from it's analog outputs as well.
Not bad for the money.

Some thoughts regarding the format war. I am building a HT system right now. Most music DVD and Movies are recorded 5.1. SACD are 5.0. ( the ones I listened to.) My system will have 2 4435's as mains, 3 home built 3 way monitors with 2231/2118/2344. ( almost finished with your help ) With 5 JBL 15"" woofers I will not need a sub woofer. Here is the problem. Playback from 5.0 SACD will be perfect. But when playing 5.1 DVD I would have to put the .1 channel info into the line level. My pre amp decoder does only allow for the sub x over to be adjusted. ( min 40 hz ) The only solution I could come up with is to use an old rane line mixer/splitter to pan the signals together, followed by a patchbay that switches the analog signals from SACD and DVD into the main amps. I am little concerned about the crosstalk data of the mixer. Shall see how it works.

Klaus