Altec Model 18... any opinions?

[JBLRaiser]

If anyone here has had experience with the 18's I would like to here from you. Thanks

[JBLRaiser]

The driver is a 604-8H coaxial woofer/horn combination.

[Steve Gonzales]

If you like the classic Altec 604 Studio Monitor sound, these are a home version of them. The Model 17 is simular and as rare, it has the multicell horn instead of the open mouth of the 18. Altec didn't sell alot of these and you don't see them very often. The drivers/crossovers are worth well over $1K.

[Don McRitchie]

I've never come across the 604-8H based Model 18, but I listened fairly extensively to the 604-8G Model 17. Besides the change in the horn from a multicell to the constant directivity Mantaray horn on the 604-8H, Altec used a more sophisticated cross-over that contained EQ for a flatter response. The Model 18 is extremely rare as the 604-8H was only in production for a year or two. You have to pay a real premium for that driver since it was the last Alnico version of the 604. The Model 17, or it's pro equivalent, the 620A, show up fairly regularly on Ebay and tend to be significantly less costly.

I did a fair bit of comparisons between the Model 17 and Model 19. My personal preference was towards the 19. It has better bass response and a less fatiquing midrange. However, the 17 had better imaging due to the point source characteristic of its coaxial design. The 18 likely has a less fatiquing sound than the 17 due to its EQ'd network (the Model 19 network is similarly EQ'd), but the bass response is likely still not a match to the 19.

[JBLRaiser]

Both your comments are greatly appreciated and valued. Any idea what a pair of 18's or 19's have cost in the past year or so? I have an opportunity to buy either at $1.200 a pair. They will sell either, but not both.

[Earl K]

Both your comments are greatly appreciated and valued. Any idea what a pair of 18's or 19's have cost in the past year or so? I have an opportunity to buy either at $1.200 a pair. They will sell either, but not both.

- $1200.00 for either type, represents "fair" market pricing .
- Audition ( with your music ) both types and choose the model that sounds best to your ears .

- Getting the point source accuracy ( in imaging ) from the 604-8H, coupled with improving its' bass ( achieved with the 2235H subs ) would be my preferred approach, given a choice between either type .
- So, if it was me , I'd buy the Model 18's and ;

(i) Retire & store the original Model 18 cabinets ( while putting the 604-8Hs' into new "sealed", 3 to 3.5 cu ft enclosures . This is to maximize the transient response from the 15" woofer section of the 604-8H ( a sealed cabinet will of course dramatically roll-off the low-bass from the 15 ) which is why I would ;

(ii) Add a 15" based sub that is housed in a 4.5 to 6 cu ft cabinet / crossing ( around 80 hz ) into the sealed 604-8H . A pair of biamped 2235Hs' are a good choice for these sub-bass duties .

Note ; my approach is a ( real-estate ) rearrangement of the approx. 9 cu ft that either of these systems will occupy in your place ( as well as, adding a "real" woofer ) . IMHO, neither of the original systems will satisfy the desire for "plump bass" like one can achieve when using multiple L100s . Generally, you should find that the stock Model 18s' will be the "leaner" of the two models you've mentioned .


:)

[Steve Gonzales]

Earl makes some very good recommendations. If you are looking for a "turn key" set up, I'd have to agree with Don. I heard the Model 17's side by side with the Model 19's at Casa Moore Stereo here in Bakersfield in the late 70's (Alan Parson's " I Robot"- Patti Smith " Because the night" :p ). My memory is that the 17's sounded forward and had less bottom vs. the 19's. I've listened to the 19's quite a bit and have a pair in the midst of restoration. Turn key= 19's. BTW, Model 19's don't need a ton of power to get loud and will handle quite a bit of it if you have it, clean power of course. I hope you post some pic's of whichever you choose, once you get them. Best of luck with them, Steve G.

[Gary L]

When auditioning Altecs in the mid 70s the 19s won my purchase. The 18s where right there alongside of the 19s and ran a very close second IMHO.

I do think if in the same position today, being a bit older and not quite as loud as in the past, the 18s would probably come home with me.
I also think the prices you have are right in line providing either pair are working up to spec and looking quite nice.

I don't know if GPA can rebuild the woofers in the 18s but I suspect they can. This would be one of the serious considerations I would use to judge which way I went.

Gary

[JBLRaiser]

Thanks Earl and Gary. Your opinions are greatly appreciated. From a collector standpoint, the 18's are getting the nod, but from an all out 'bouncing off the walls' sound, the 19's may 'fill the bill' better. My tastes in music are PURE ROCK from the 60'/70's. That's why I love my L100's. Hope one of these can keep up with my musical needs. By the way, I run my L100's off of a reconditioned Dynaco ST400 and PAS 3, Goldring TT and Sony DVP-S7000.

[Gary L]

I can't honestly say I have ever heard anyone say their 19s were less then excellent.

That being said coupled with some of EarlKs comments and upgrades I think you could be in a bit of a pickle here.

18s are truely a rare bird and I think the sales guy told me way back the 19s outsold them by about 10-1.

From a collectors standpoint I think the 18s are the real deal here at the exact same price.
From another perspective, I would think you will be very happy with the 19s given your taste in music and SPL.

I would very much love to hear a set of 18s with the upgrades Earl mentions and quite agree all the original cabinets and components must be stored and maintained unmolested for future potential.

I don't have answers here but have noted on more then one occassion when you remove the exact components from a particular factory box and place them in your own designed box you tend to drop the value considerably. On other occassions I have seen the raw components bring more out of the box then in them.
It is all a crap shoot but I lean toward maintaining the originals as they were designed.

Gary

[Mr. Widget]

I can't honestly say I have ever heard anyone say their 19s were less then excellent.
I am not sure if you would take this to mean less than excellent... I am not even sure what less than excellent means... I suppose it'll have a different meaning to everyone. To me excellent would be taken to be superior, the pinnacle, the best... I don't think Don is describing the best speaker he has ever heard.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11484

I do think that the Model 19 is the best domestic product Altec ever sold... and as was discussed on another thread, it may be a better two-way than JBL has ever offered at least in the domestic arena... objectively I imagine the JBL 4430 would kick the 19's butt in virtually every area, though that isn't to say that many people might not subjectively prefer the 19... that would actually be an interesting comparison. Maybe a 19 owner and a 4430 owner could get together and make such a comparison... though transporting these beasts around is less than fun. Is there anyone out there that currently has both?


Widget

[Steve Gonzales]

Having intimate knowledge of both, my best guess is that both parties would find something that they like better about the other, but have a newfound respect for both in their distinct qualities. They are two different animals. The M19's are airy and very dynamic. I never get tired of listening to them. The music is exciting when played through them. Nice punch, low end authority and very smooth top end. It is mildly lacking in the upper octaves, but rolls off gradually so that you don't get the impression that it falls on it's face up there, especially with the help of a little EQ. The 4430, in comparison, is more subtle or neutral. Probably more accurate, in the classic sense of a studio monitor, less bottom bloat and more sterile top end. It gets into that grey area when it comes to personal preference as to which is actually better. An extention of the old L100 vs. AR3 debate. It is a long shot, but when I finish my M19's, I would consider a roadtrip to the Los Angeles area for a friendly shoot out with a 4430 owner.

[Titanium Dome]

Got some real nice 4430s in my office and plenty of amps, preamps, and sources. On a Saturday or Sunday we could empty the conference room and set 'em up in there. (23' x 35' x 12 or 13'H) It's probably a bit "bright" with short pile carpet and plaster walls, but the ceiling is trussed with solid beams.

Huh? Huh? :bouncy:

[Steve Gonzales]

Got some real nice 4430s in my office and plenty of amps, preamps, and sources. On a Saturday or Sunday we could empty the conference room and set 'em up in there. (23' x 35' x 12 or 13'H) It's probably a bit "bright" with short pile carpet and plaster walls, but the ceiling is trussed with solid beams.

Huh? Huh? :bouncy:That would be great Doug. I've had a hell of a time finding the correct crossovers for the 19's, at least within my present budget. It might be a while, but definately worth the effort.

[KornerHorn]

I have 4430's And 19's

the 4430 sucks power due to the passive x-over throwing away power to flatten the response, to the point it is not a very dynamic speaker..500 watts req'd
they Do present intimate detail that is lost w/ the 19

conversely, the 19 is a lively, dynamic speaker, with a gentle high end roll off say, at 12 k, and hard hitting bass

19 wins every time ......

[edgewound]

I have 4430's And 19's

the 4430 sucks power due to the passive x-over throwing away power to flatten the response, to the point it is not a very dynamic speaker..500 watts req'd
they Do present intimate detail that is lost w/ the 19

conversely, the 19 is a lively, dynamic speaker, with a gentle high end roll off say, at 12 k, and hard hitting bass

19 wins every time ......

The woofers in these two systems couldn't be more different...it's not due to losses in the passive crossover....the Model 19 has one too....with adjustable passive EQ as well. And that metal horn is awful sounding when undoctored to dampen the ringing resonance.

The Altec 416 is a maximum efficiency equal length voice coil/gap, 3" voice coil, lightweight cone....whereas the JBL 2235H has an overhung voice coil/gap, 4" voice coil, and heavy cone, roughly 4 times the power handling....they are completely different animals. The JBL by design will have far lower mechanical distortions.

The approximately 6 or 7dB difference in sensitivity will dictate that the JBL will obviously require more power, but all in all I'd say the JBL is a more accurate speaker system. The distortions of the Model 19 might to some sound more pleasing in what ever way pleases you, but it's not necessarily the winner in the category that counts for a professional studio monitor....accurate playback at really loud big-mains monitor listening levels.

I think the winner is...and most all speaker systems are....the one you like the most...but please don't confuse the science between the two.

[Zilch]

You're making it up, Korner. :barf:

The power necessary to drive the compensated compression driver is minisucule, and it's already there due to the efficiency differential between the drivers.

Read up here: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/4430-35.htm

It's the 2235H that consumes the power; efficiency was sacrificed to achieve its unique performance characteristics.

Even with that compromise, they're rated 93 dB SPL at 1W, 1M:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf

They run quite nicely on 75W here, thank you.... ;)

[Steve Gonzales]

I think the winner is...and most all speaker systems are....the one you like the most...but please don't confuse the science between the two.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell and well said. I wouldn't load up 300+lbs of M19's and drive a 250mi round trip if I thought there was a clear winner in the M19, I could just sit here at home and type that. The intent is to get two JBL/Lansing fans together to give a good listen and try to critique in a constructive manner. Both are killer speakers, and anyone lucky enough to own a pair of either should consider themselves fortunate. Man, am I OT or what, sorry :o: .

[Mr. Widget]

You're making it up, Korner. :barf: Be nice... did you fail to notice that it was his first public post?

Hey Korner, thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to post your observations and opinions. Your comments were exactly what I was looking for. Basically the 19 does this and the 4430 does that... as for which you prefer, that's fine... once we read your description we can each decide which speaker's compromises are less important to ourselves.

While Zilch and Edge each make several good technical points, the fact is that these are different beasts and each have plenty of compromises in their designs.

It is certainly interesting that they are both about the same price on today's used market... I wouldn't make too much of that though. The L300 is generally more expensive on the used market. I am not sure that I would say that it is hands down the better speaker... yes, I know, several of you are thinking damn straight it's better... and others prefer the 19 and still others the 4430s... the bottom line is that none of these speakers would be made today because they would cost more to produce then the market would think they are worth, but at the used prices that they typically go for they are indeed a bargain...


Widget

[JBLRaiser]

I made my choice today and picked the Model 19's to match my 'TURN IT UP' tastes. I will pick them up this weekend and take them straight to my audio 'guru' for his blessings before I bring them home. I will take pictures of them to post for the forum. I also noticed that GPA is selling a reissue of the 604-8H(the model 18 drivers) with XO network for $1,500 for the pair. I would love to hear them, too. Might be a great project such as Earl recommended.

[Gary L]

Either way you decided to go would have been fine with me. 18s and 19s are both excellent speakers in my humble opinion.
"Less then excellent" BTW Mr. Widget is exactly that, Not quite there!
I have never known any 19 owner who was not completely satisfied with them with the one exception of their size.

Shootouts are a great way of getting together to have some fun and do some critical listening but I am never sure there is a clear winner.
I would expect a JBL fan to like the JBLs and an Altec fan to feel the same about his prefered brand. Nature of our beasts.

Blind folded and completly ignorant to which is working at the moment is a much better test but I suspect you guys would know your sounds and pick them right out.
My ears are the only way I can tell what I like best and even they play some tricks as I age.

One thing for sure, I would not pass up any of the fine speakers mentioned in this thread when the price is right. Still think you got a very sweet deal and will watch for some pics and comments from the real winner here.

Enjoy!

Gary

[Zilch]

Be nice... did you fail to notice that it was his first public post?It was a FRIENDLY spew.... :p

[Rolf]

have much experience with Altec. The only thing I can remember is that the VOTT (Voice Of The Theatre?)compared to the 4333A's, and the Model 19 compared to the Paragon (witch I owned at the time of comparison) I remember the JBL's sounded much more correct than the Altec's. This was also the conclusion by the owners of the Altec speakers.

[JBLRaiser]

The horn drivers were bad, but had the leads soldered and they are now sweet to go. Also, purchased some replacement diaphrams from GPA for when I get tired of the present sound(WHICH IS AWESOME TO MY EARS) Bill at GPA is a real down to earth guy. Just a nice guy.:D




P.S. The jack stands weren't included!

[JBLRaiser]

When I first saw them in person, the size shocked me. How am I going to get these by the wife. I'll just say she's STILL in shock.:eek:

[Steve Gonzales]

Those look beautiful Raiser'! Congratulations :applaud: . Is there anywhere else to put em'? Probably not. Beautiful home too. Isin't it funny how you don't have an idea just how big they really are until they are in your house? One of my all time favorite speakers. There are speakers that do certain things better, but the M19's just have something special about the way they reproduce music on the whole. Enjoy them Bud, well done.

[Gary L]

WOW Riser, they are pretty! I always wanted a pair in the Oak veneer and will make my new ones to match these.

Play around with direction and placement and you will hear some big differences in the nearfield sound.

I lived with these for almost 30 years and never had a complaint at all.

Nice Rack you have there and looks to be very much the equivelant of the Altec diet!

Hope you have a blast with the beasts and the wife can get over the space they take with the sound they produce.
Add a cover of 1/4" plate glass to the tops because I have yet to find a woman who could resist planting these!

Gary

[KornerHorn]

OAK ......!

you got Oak .....!

how I wanted to find that, instead of the common walnut

:o:

[KornerHorn]

You're making it up, Korner. :barf:

The power necessary to drive the compensated compression driver is minisucule, and it's already there due to the efficiency differential between the drivers.

Read up here: http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/4430-35.htm

It's the 2235H that consumes the power; efficiency was sacrificed to achieve its unique performance characteristics.

Even with that compromise, they're rated 93 dB SPL at 1W, 1M:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf[/quote (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/443035.pdf)



Weeeeelllll, OK ...
Zilch-O

so, it's the Woof that sux the power.......
end result is still the same
Crown K-2 just barely has the balls to lite these baby's up

give me a public spankin' will, ya ....:)

[KornerHorn]

and 93 dB/watt/meter

is pretty damn Low Efficiency
compared to Altec

[Zilch]

and 93 dB/watt/meter is pretty damn Low Efficiency
compared to AltecYeah, well, what Edgewound said, then.

Bottom line: 4430s are Studio Monitors.

There's plenty more efficient JBLs, too....

[Steve Gonzales]

Yeah, well, what Edgewound said, then.

Bottom line: 4430s are Studio Monitors.

There's plenty more efficient JBLs, too.... And the fact that "who really gives a rip-snort" about the difference in sensitivity between the two?. These are two very different schools of design. Both awesome in their own right. The 19's are Studio Monitors too. At least they are badged that way. They appeal to different tastes.