4343s improve with age

[Tom Loizeaux]

Just wanted to pass on my sense that my 4343s are sounding better recently. Both 2231 woofers were re-foamed about a year or so ago and I think I'm still hearing very slight improvements in the very low end in the past few months. The bass just seems a little deeper than I remember, or was expecting on CDs that I've played many times before. Of course it could be a number of other things...including ME, but I suspect the surrounds and spiders are coming into form.

Tom

[duaneage]

Sounds like a true love affair to me. My 128H drivers sound better now a year after refoaming. The bass is deeper and cleaner than before.

[Rolf]

Just wanted to pass on my sense that my 4343s are sounding better recently. Both 2231 woofers were re-foamed about a year or so ago and I think I'm still hearing very slight improvements in the very low end in the past few months. The bass just seems a little deeper than I remember, or was expecting on CDs that I've played many times before. Of course it could be a number of other things...including ME, but I suspect the surrounds and spiders are coming into form.

Tom

I know many of you will disagree, but I seriously mean that a new JBL woofer or a re-cone needs about 200 hours of playing before it does it best. I guess re-foaming also need quite some time, but I have no personal experience with that. (Re-foaming)

[Lekreh]

Good news

[Titanium Dome]

It takes months for me to get 100 hours on some of my systems, except for the Performance Series. Refoamed drivers like the 2214H and LE14H-1 have about 30 hours each after four months. It'll be interesting to see how they measure/sound after a year when they'll hopefully have 100 or so hours on them.

[Titanium Dome]

I have to admit, the 4430s I got last year with the refoamed 2235H drivers are sounding better these days. I even reset the B380 sub output as things started to sound a tad bass heavy.

Is it me or the drivers? I don't know. :dont-know

[Zilch]

I even reset the B380 sub output as things started to sound a tad bass heavy.HUH?

BX63A I fixed still working?

[Amazing.... ;) ]

[Titanium Dome]

HUH?

BX63A I fixed still working?

[Amazing.... ;) ]

Not only is it still working, but now it's dusting my office and taking out the trash due that nano technology you put in it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Depends how often you play them and how loud.

Frankly, if the 2231 has the original cone and spider you owe it to yourself to have it completely reconed. Both the spider and cone do age over time and in some cases will require replacement with heavy use.(see below)

Back in the 80's I had a pair of 2231's in a 4343 I built and they were excellent woofers at the time. We also used the 2231H as a second pair to reinforce/augment the stock 4343 in large rooms.

What I did find was using a very powerful and stable amp for the bass when biamping prolonged their lifespan. Keeping the coil in the gap and maintaining a very firm grip when you start to approach the limits of Xmax is important. I also used a 18 db filter below 30 hertz when running vinyl.The power amplifer was a brand new Phase Linear 700B. The driver only failure was one rare event by accident when the preamp power was removed before the power amp power.

Although in my climate the foam lasts about 10 years I would recommend reconing and not refoaming, in heavy use I would recone every 3 years (day in day out studio use). As I recall the newer 2235 recones have a different spider geometry and they are definately more robust. There is a thread about this somewhere.

[Rolf]

It takes months for me to get 100 hours on some of my systems, except for the Performance Series. Refoamed drivers like the 2214H and LE14H-1 have about 30 hours each after four months. It'll be interesting to see how they measure/sound after a year when they'll hopefully have 100 or so hours on them.

Yes, for many people it will take a long time to break the speakers in. (100-200 hours). BUT, it's not really a long time if you remember that they are intended for professional use. Used daily in a studio I will think 200 hours in about 6-8 weeks.

[Zilch]

So, we presume everything mixed during the first 6-8 weeks is therefore FUBAR?

Can we all say :bs: together?

[Y'all're makin' stuff up again, is what.... :p ]

[Rolf]

So, we presume everything mixed during the first 6-8 weeks is therefore FUBAR?

Can we all say :bs: together?

[Y'all're makin' stuff up again, is what.... :p ]

I guess a studio will WAIT to use a new studio monitor for "working stuff" until they are well played in. Or do you mean that a new speaker don't need any break in time???

[Zilch]

I guess a studio will WAIT to use a new studio monitor for "working stuff" until they are well played in. Or do you mean that a new speaker don't need any break in time???I doubt any studio waits to use its newest monitors.

As far a measurable differences are concerned, it's all over in a matter of minutes. There's a thread on that here recently.

On the other hand, it's alleged to take 20 to 40 years of use for a fine guitar to acquire its fully resonant tone.... ;)

[Rolf]

I doubt any studio waits to use its newest monitors.
You might be right in that one Zilch, I did not say the actually do it, I said I GUESS they will. I am not that familiar with what the do/do not.


As far a measurable differences are concerned, it's all over in a matter of minutes. There's a thread on that here recently.
Maybe you can't measure a difference (I doubt that to) I must disagree regarding the sound improvement over time. After re-coning several of 15" JBL woofers (not by me) over the years there are clearly that they sound better, and go deeper after being played on for some time.

In earlier days, when a re-cone was necessary I used to put on a 30Hz tone in the morning when I went to work, and turn it off when I got back 8-9 hours later. This I did for about a week. I slowly increased the volume level day by day. At the end of each day I played the same record, and there was no doubt that there was improvement. Not so much from day to day, but from start to finish it was a great difference.


On the other hand, it's alleged to take 20 to 40 years of use for a fine guitar to acquire its fully resonant tone.... ;)

That I did not know.

[Zilch]

The mentioned thread:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10817

And another I found:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122

[Rolf]

The mentioned thread:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10817

And another I found:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122

Hi Zilch. I have read the threads, and there is nothing there that can make me change my mind. Why? Because all the technical measure instruments in the wold is nothing compared to the ears. Myself, and a lot of other ears can hear the difference from a new/re-coned speaker compared to a system used for some time.

Use your ears and make the test next time you buy a new transducer or re cone one. Listen to the new one and then let it work some hours (at least 50+ hours) and then listen to it again (with the same music).

Then ... wow ...

But... of course ... if you don't hear any difference ... two reasons: one: you don't want to ... two: the rest of your gear is not up to it ... and one reason maybe the cables, witch you probably don't believe make a difference either.

Your friend

[Zilch]

... and one reason maybe the cables, witch you probably don't believe make a difference either.ME? Purveyor of the Zilch Wonder Cable? ;)

[I don't use 'em on woofs, tho.... ]

[Titanium Dome]

I doubt any studio waits to use its newest monitors.

As far a measurable differences are concerned, it's all over in a matter of minutes. There's a thread on that here recently.

On the other hand, it's alleged to take 20 to 40 years of use for a fine guitar to acquire its fully resonant tone.... ;)

Prior to my moving to CA in 1996, Gravity, Audio Bay, and Studio One back in the Great Lakes would customarily "condition" monitors for a week or two before recording off them. Now they're all Genelec it seems, so who knows/cares? They've all added ProTools in the last decade, so it's not all backwards movement. ;)

While the comment on it all being "over in a matter of minutes" is verifiably true, if it were absolutely true, nothing would ever wear out. Yet we know things do wear out and the performance between the beginning and the end will change.

Since I do not intend to do a longitudinal study on the miniscule changes as components wear and flex, I'm just going to be happy living with the belief that I like the sound better today than a month ago, and much better than six months ago. :rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

ME? Purveyor of the Zilch Wonder Cable? ;)

[I don't use 'em on woofs, tho.... ]

Gosh I hate to be contrary to the miracle man himself, but the proper name is Zilch Miracle Cable, as evidenced here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87326&postcount=6

and here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72204&postcount=563

The historical record is clear. :p

[Ian Mackenzie]

Actually,

I think Rolf posts are more akin his own experiences than merely re posting links of what someone else thinks on the day.

In my own experience breakin while percieved as being bass related has more to do with the upper harmonics. Besides, the effects of variations on TL parameters tend to cancel themselves out, and in the case of a 2245 the VAS is enormous compared to the drives compliance and the 2235 at 16.2 cu ft is also very high. I doubt then that audible changes may be heard are due to the compliance on bass tuning.

The compliance however functions to perform other important duties such as asborb and cancel the sound wave reflection through the cone at much higher frequencies.

Yes, all cone drivers transmit sound through the cone assembly.

Regardless of the spider or compliance flexure the whole cone assembly is a a mechanical device that will flex and vibrate at particular wavelengths.

The manner in which it does that may vary after initial manufacture once in use. The cone is more likely to settle with along term flex/stiffness properties after an inital use and that stiffness/flex properties of the cone at manufacture may well be specifically determined to allow for breakin.

The performance of the surround in absorbing the sound waves transmitted through the cone and any variation on its mechanical properties are far more likely to effect the drivers output at higher frequencies as mention above.

Therefore if you can detect any variations this may be what is happening.

[Zilch]

Gosh I hate to be contrary to the miracle man himself, but the proper name is Zilch Miracle Cable, as evidenced here:
The historical record is clear. Geez, it'd sure help if I knew my own product line better, wouldn't it? :p


While the comment on it all being "over in a matter of minutes" is verifiably true, if it were absolutely true, nothing would ever wear out. Yet we know things do wear out and the performance between the beginning and the end will change.Well it becomes somewhat of a semantic question, then, doesn't it: "Are they wearing in or wearing out?"

Mr. Widget pointed that out in one of the earlier posts. ;)


Actually,

I think Rolf posts are more akin his own experiences than merely re posting links of what someone else thinks on the day. Thank you, Ian for expanding upon what I earlier observed there:


My understanding is that it is required for the new materials to establish their flexural "seat," and while the process does continue, it's asymptotic.

Presumably, both spiders and surrounds are involved at low frequencies, but it's easily envisaged that preferred flexural patterns would also develop within the cone and dust dome at higher frequencies.