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boputnam
07-25-2006, 06:08 PM
Widget suggested we post our impressions from the time we spent together evaluating the sonic characteristics of the Bryston. So, here goes... What follows is largely subjective, as one cannot measure the sonic differences in gear. What one can do is critically listen to the gear's ability to reproduce sounds "honestly" and with the least coloring and most transparency. The impressions were unanimous - they were not vague nor subtle.

I had Bryston special make a 10B with the voltage drive of the HPF from the 3145 four-way:290Hz, -12dB slope. I talked this over extensively with Giskard - he was very generous with his time discussing the background of the 3145, design topology, and the difference between the 3145 and the 5234a. He cautioned about the difference between the -18dB slope of the 5234a (and the -24dB slope of the Ashly XR1001 I was using) and the more subtle -12dB slope of the original 3145 design. I opted for the -12dB slope.

I hope Widget will chime in here, but let me add to other posts I made on the 4343 to 4344 upgrade thread in the DIY subForum.

Switching from the Ashly, immediately I noticed an increased voicing in the entire spectrum >290Hz. Widget confirmed this. I hadn't expected this large a change, but clearly the Class A circuitry in the Bryston produces a more "open" sound. All tonality and voicing is improved - there is also a noticable improvement in imaging. The sibilance of the HF was "returned". This is not to say the Bryston is "bright" as others have posted - that is simply not the character. The Bryston is open - un colored - and presents the natural sibilance of the voice and percussion and whatever in a good, natural balance. It was more acoustically "real" (or live sounding) than the Ashly. This translates into improved imaging.

Widget and I made numerous measurements comparing the response of the Ashly to that of the Bryston. I prepared a number of screen-saves if they prove to be of interest. In short, the Ashly simply does a great job, and is unequalled in it's price range. The crossover is very managable, allowing great flexibility to the user. Smaart helped the usage of the Ashly, in that in revealed a lessened response from 2.5kHz upwards, which I was able to adjust for with subtle EQ. While I had elsewhere pondered if this EQ was "endemic" to the 4345, it is not. The open character of the Bryston obviated the need for any EQ boost in that range. Frankly, the Bryston required less EQ, period.

The only area where Widget and I tweaked things a bit was at 290Hz. Smaart revealed what EagleEar Widget described as a "wooliness" in the lower range of female vocals - in-particular a Joni Mitchell he was fond of. Smaart showed the slight bump at 290Hz as expected with the -12dB slope. There it was, a hump of about +2 dB, maybe a half-octave Q. It was easy to very subtly EQ out, and the improvement quite material.

So, what did we learn? At this level of gear, even somewhat subtle improvements are very costly. For average listening, this could not be justified. But, if you have the means and find yourself doing a good deal of critical listenting (without dogs walking about, and laundry running or dinner cooking...), a Bryston should improve your experience materially. I'd suggest a steeper slope. Brtyston makes switchable versions, but I opted for simplest, purist design. -18dB would be a good choice, but at-the-same-time at this level of gear one must have access to good measurement gear and this allows very, very subtle EQ adjustments which vastly improve the response.

What you say there, Widget...?

-----

btw - Widget has a great set of ears. He is quite practically sensitive to voicing characteristics.

Mr. Widget
07-25-2006, 10:34 PM
Thanks for the compliments Bo... and especially for giving me the opportunity to experience the comparison. I'll try to explain what I heard in my own words so that folks can connect the dots between your comments and mine to come to their own conclusions.

I went to the audition with my own set of biases as we all do. I have heard Bryston amps that I thought were a bit bright sounding, and thought it might be possible that the 10B would be bright too. When I arrived Bo had the Bryston in the circuit and I asked for a particular album that I am very familiar with... I immediately noticed two things. A wooliness in Joni Mitchelll's voice and better sounding 2405s than I have been used to hearing... next I noticed a better sense of stage depth than I normally expect from 43XX systems and a higher level of detail in the upper mids. (Absolutely not a brighter sound or more aggressive sound... just a bit more detail.) The wooliness in Joni's voice bugged the shit out of me, but I assumed that it was due to the crossover topology and also that it could be "fixed" with a bit of EQ.

After a bit of listening Bo replaced the 10B with the Ashly and immediately the wooliness was gone, but so was the detail, the highs were not as refined sounding, and the stage depth had collapsed. I had expected to hear the hard transistory sound that I associate with inexpensive op-amp based devices... most Rane gear and other moderately priced "pro-gear" has this sort of sound... happily none of that was present... probably why I was impressed with the Ashly when I first heard one a couple of years back... (On that subject, I agree with Bo that it is good bargain. I would rather listen with a thin pillow in front of my speakers like the Ashly sounds like than have a sound that is assaulting me with hard glaring sound.)

We went back to the Bryston and Bo played around with the EQ... mostly removing EQ that had been in the system for the Ashly. He did remove the wooliness by bringing down the bump at the crossover frequency. I have always liked the sound of Bo's 4345s... with the addition of the Bryston, the sound in his room was the best yet.

In his post, Bo mentioned the crossover slopes. I am not sure if the differences were as much due to the relative steepness of the slopes as to the types of slopes. The Ashly is a 24dB Linkwitz-Riley (that can be tweaked into a pseudo Butterworth, Bessel etc. at the turn of a knob). His new Bryston is a 12dB Butterworth. In my experience on most systems a 12dB Butterworth gives you a measurable and quite audible bump at the crossover frequency... we were certainly able to hear and measure it on the 4345s. If I were going to order a Bryston, I would get a 24dB L-R crossover... but every system is designed a bit differently and depending on the drivers being used a different slope or crossover type may be best.


Widget

Ken Pachkowsky
07-25-2006, 11:19 PM
Very good review. Thanks to both of you.

Ken

porschedpm
07-26-2006, 04:53 AM
...Widget and I made numerous measurements comparing the response of the Ashly to that of the Bryston. I prepared a number of screen-saves if they prove to be of interest....

...one must have access to good measurement gear and this allows very, very subtle EQ adjustments which vastly improve the response...

Thank you both for a great review. I for one am interested in seeing the graphs. Also could you provide a brief description of the measurement gear you use. Thanks again.

Ed

L100t Owner
07-26-2006, 07:37 AM
I just picked up a pair of Bryston 7B ST amps to use with my B&W N801's. Amps are not supposed to make that much of a difference. I compared it to a QSC3402 amp. Using Diana Krall and in mono I sat in front of each speaker for a while. I kept going back and forth focusing on vocals. The QSC sounded great and I woudl not have noticed that something was missing, BUT, the Bryston sounded more natural. You woudl swear that she was right there while the QSC came close, the Bryston just had the extra "right there" and more natural character.

In stereo the soundstage also seems more defined and deeper. Bryston makes some very nice stuff. Coupled with the B&W (I know - British junk) they are just awesome.

Chris

boputnam
07-26-2006, 08:30 AM
In his post, Bo mentioned the crossover slopes. I am not sure if the differences were as much due to the relative steepness of the slopes as to the types of slopes. I agree, however, slope is quite audible, too.

As I mentioned on Sunday afternoon, before you arrived at that steamy outdoor gig I was dialing-in the KT DN9868, and took a few minutes to sample different slopes. The DN9848 offers either -12dB or -24dB Linkwitz-Riley options. The -12dB slope had a muddy sound - less detail at the crossover point (100Hz in this case) than did -24dB. I did not "Smaart" this to view the response curve, or try to see if I could remedy the effect with EQ - I just dialed between the two, and found the -24dB to be cleaner and more tonally precise. This observation was clearly impacted by coupling resonance, but in that setting at that time the steeper slope was preferable.

It's very important to sample different crossovers and different slopes and gain familiarity with their characteristics. In multi-element systems there may be different preferences at different points in the response curve, dependent upon transducer and cabinet characteristics. Certainly JBL found this in their work with the 43xx series Monitors.

boputnam
07-26-2006, 08:51 AM
I for one am interested in seeing the graphs. Also could you provide a brief description of the measurement gear you use.Hi, Ed...

Sure - that stuff is sitting on my other HDD so, maybe I can get to it this evening. The graphs may be disappointing as they are a bit noisy (time-slices were kept narrow to present the most current data), but they certainly do show acoustic reality.

As to the "gear", I've posted this elsewhere but use:
- laptop: Dell D410
- software: SmaartLIVE 5.0 from SIA Software (http://www.siasoft.com/)
- preamp: USBPre from Sound Devices (http://www.sounddevices.com/products/usbpremaster.htm). This is an astonishingly powerful pre - and in my case necessary due to driver conflicts between Smaart and the Dell on-board soundcard. This pre saves my butt at live shows with it's incredibly flexible I/O options. I often use two or three different measurement sources, switching between them.
- measurement mic: Earthworks M30BX from Earthworks Audio (http://www.earthworksaudio.com/25.html). I prefer the AA powered version over the +48v phantom version as I've experienced "popping" noise when switching the latter on/off, or recabling things.

btw, dood, if you're ever over this-a-way, lemme know...

Mr. Widget
07-26-2006, 09:42 AM
I agree, however, slope is quite audible, too.Of course! I didn't mean to sound like the slope is trivial... I was just trying to explain the bump in response at the crossover point.

Hey Bo, I think you might want to explain how you had your 10B configured and how the factory convinced you not to get the version with more flexibility (adjustments) as it would degrade the sound quality etc.


Widget

boputnam
07-26-2006, 10:12 AM
Of course! I didn't mean to sound like the slope is trivial... I was just trying to explain the bump in response at the crossover point.

Hey Bo, I think you might want to explain how you had your 10B configured and how the factory convinced you not to get the version with more flexibility (adjustments) as it would degrade the sound quality etc.Yep, the bump was certainly there - I'll try and make a highlight of it on the images (to come).

On the choosing, from discussions with Giskard on the history of the 3145 and the iterative process used then, I opted for the -12dB slope to as-close-as-possible match the original work of Greg Timbers and the JBL team. Giskard did warn that I may not like the -12dB slope, after my having used steeper. I can't say I don't like the slope - but there is/was a noticeable lack of definition at the crossover point (as Giskard warned), but this was easily improved with very minimal EQ (hi Q, -2 dB notch).

Bryston urged that, if-at-all possible I should choose a set slope. Bryston strongly recommended using a set crossover point and slope as any switches in the signal path degrade sonic quality. Their work shows that the highest quality circuit is the simplest possible. So, I opted to go without any flexibility.

There's one minor edit I'd add to my first post - IMO the LF is also much more tonal with the Bryston. Listening last night to Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue on recommendations of Widget and Ken P. The recording is not for casual listening - it will command your attention (as do all of hers!). The experience was breathtaking. There was a bit excess reverb in the vox track for my taste, but the mic'ing and recording of the bass and Kit are a marvel. Jim Anderson truly knows what he is doing...

Earl K
07-26-2006, 11:31 AM
He ( Giskard ) cautioned about the difference between the -18dB slope of the 5234a (and the -24dB slope of the Ashly XR1001 I was using) and the more subtle -12dB slope of the original 3145 design. I opted for the -12dB slope.

- If you want to experience the 90 phase offset ( at crossover ) that one achieves utilyzing 18db slopes ( for both lopass & hipass ) then; use your Ashly ( 24 db LR ) on just the lowpass, while using your new Bryston ( 12 db Butterworth ) on the hipass.
- This "cheap & cheerful " approximation of the 90 phase offset will offer it's own education in "slope listening" .
- I'd start the listening evaluations, with the woofers polarity wired the same as the 2122H.
- In fact, this polarity "sameness" is, IMO, reason enough to pursue getting this asymetrical slope topology to work in a 4-way system .

<> :)

boputnam
07-26-2006, 12:12 PM
Hi, Earl...

I considered exactly that, last evening. All I need is a couple of splitters, and can input into both crossovers simultaneuosly taking the LF from the Ashly and MF/HF from the Bryston. I also considered changing the polarity of the 2245H too. I was questioning the phase impacts, so your comment is timely!

Giskard posted long-ago the effect of wiring the 2245H and 2122H of the same polarity - it produces a hump at the crossover point as expected. Widget recently reposted this, I think, in the 4343 to 4344 Thread.

Thanks, Earl - I'll let you know if I do this...

boputnam
07-27-2006, 07:32 AM
Earl:

That (now missing...) post about the energy buildup in the crossover region with graphic results from the Le Cleach Excel file was quite interesting. Any chance you could reconstruct it, here...?

Ian Mackenzie
07-27-2006, 02:47 PM
This link might explain it:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/733

Then there is the Rane primer:

http://www.rane.com/note160.html

Earl K
07-27-2006, 05:36 PM
Earl:

That (now missing...) post about the energy buildup in the crossover region with graphic results from the Le Cleach Excel file was quite interesting. Any chance you could reconstruct it, here...?

Hi Bo,

- I reconstructed that crossover study Here ! (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=118631)

- As you can see ( over there ) a "split-pole", 12 db/octave Butterworth offers a pretty smooth transition.

- I dialed in a voice-coil offset of 3 inches ( 75 mm ), not actually knowing what it is . ( FWIW; A positive number in the box for the specific transducer means it's voice-coil is closer to the listener ).

:)

boputnam
07-27-2006, 05:55 PM
Excellent - thanks, Earl.

Being a moderator here, I could view the (deleted) post and knew it would be of interest to many. Kind of you to make the extra effort, and tying into Ian's long idled thread!! I anticipate there will be much coming from it...

I will reference Ian's post there, too. Thanks, Ian!

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2006, 04:13 PM
Bo and widget;

thanks for the thread...looks interesting..

Glad you've seen an improvement with your babies Bo..

Your experience reflects mine with the ashly..a very good crossover for the money and is perfect for most setups but it can eliminate some of the finer nuances in music which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.

great thread...

boputnam
07-29-2006, 02:36 AM
...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.

Mr. Widget
07-29-2006, 10:18 AM
...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY CRITICAL listening is done.

I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.I take issue with both of these comments... if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all... you can be perfectly happy with a stock L100, L200, or L300... and many are. If on the other hand you really listen, there are a myriad of short comings that become evident with these fine systems. I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.


Widget

boputnam
07-29-2006, 10:38 AM
...The switching back may be more obvious.Exactly what Widget and I found this time, and knew from before - I think you guys posted the same on the 4343 to 4344 upgrade thread.

Going up in quality is at-times a subtle change. Going down in quality is much more noticeable. It was subjectively easier to hear what we were missing, than what we were gaining.

I'll try and get my act together and post annotated Smaart displays. Been busy getting ready for Jerry Day 2006!! (www.jerryday.org)

boputnam
07-29-2006, 12:19 PM
OK, so here goes.

We started at a 2m position, and compared the Ashly response to the Bryston. Note that the response (EQ) had been optimized for the listening position (5m), so this 2m position is considerably closer to the speaker.

The Ashly has a -24dB slope, although the Response was adjusted to something less than a full Linkwitz-Riley (i.e., maybe -3dB down) at the crossover point of 290Hz.

In the Bryston view, you can see the hump at/near the crossover point of 290Hz due to the Butterworth filter and gentle -12dB slope.

boputnam
07-29-2006, 12:23 PM
Here's the ending Bryston view at the listening position (5m), with the EQ set for the Bryston. It sounds great...

boputnam
07-29-2006, 12:47 PM
Top = Ashly EQ settings.
- Note the emphasis (positive bias) from 4kHz thru 20kHz needed to achieve flat response. This supports the obervations of "veiled" HF response.

Bottom = Bryston EQ settings.
- Note the mostly flat HF range (slight boost at 8kHz only)
- Notch at 2kHz
- Notch at 290Hz to reduce the Butterworth hump.
- Cuts at 40Hz thru 63Hz to reduce room nodes

boputnam
07-29-2006, 12:52 PM
Widget at 5m, off axis...

Ian Mackenzie
07-29-2006, 03:07 PM
Bo,

I see you have 3 woofers, nice.

Thankyou for posting the curves, very informative.

Slightly O/T, bit I wonder if your assending equ from 2-8 k has anything to do with speaker location and off axis response of the 2307? Above 10 K is flat?

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
07-29-2006, 03:59 PM
I take issue with both of these comments... if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all... you can be perfectly happy with a stock L100, L200, or L300... and many are. If on the other hand you really listen, there are a myriad of short comings that become evident with these fine systems. I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.


Widget

Absolutely, although I sense am preaching to the converted. Each to his own I suppose. Any Bose Fans on the forums..??

Perhaps one way of explaining it is its an experiencial thing.

For me its bit like going to hear my favourite Jazz trio at Bennetts Lane ( noted Jazz venue Melbourne). You go there to hear, you sit down, shut up and listen intently. Why spend all the money otherwise?

The higher the calibre of the total sound system the more compelling and engaging the experience is and that only comes with expense, time and experience.

As I said to Bo in a pm, you can A/B till your blue in the face but that ain't necessarily the right approach.

Firstly, its unfortunate that non linear component upgrades (within the signal chain) are much more difficult to discern as being better and the conclusion is often its different or maybe only slightly better. But when you consider the signal path this is hardly surprising. The signal starts out average, it goes through a good preamp, a mediocre eq, a good active crossover and a not so good passive crossover. I mean hello. (just an example)

However if you systematically upgrade the critcal aspects (weak links) of the system that are known to be poorer performers than the best components its a no boner. The things that need improving are often not obvious and require careful investigation. The upgrades are then said to be linear linear and the improvement is going to be linear. The enlightenment and engagement is immediate and the listening experience more compelling.

Its a bit like going to your favourite dealer an asking him to play a $2000 system and then swith the preamp to something better, you might want to believe its better but it might be hard to tell them apart. I call it audiophile phobia. The sales rep then plays you to a $10,000 system, you can really hear the difference but you can't afford it so you buy the preamp anyway and you play it believing its better until you change something else.

Back to the upgrades if you switch back to the original configuration after a reasonable period of exposure and the prior experience is usually less than engaging and often unlistenable.

It takes time to fully appreciate the new experience, the brain and ear has to adjust, unlearn and re-learn. Auditory receptors are not switches even though we can distinguish some differences quickly.

The ear and the mind become trained as you progress and listening like anything else is a skill.

Ian

boputnam
07-29-2006, 05:25 PM
Slightly O/T, bit I wonder if your assending equ from 2-8 k has anything to do with speaker location and off axis response of the 2307? Above 10 K is flat?Sure could - dunno. It is optimized for the listener's position, and that certainly has it's "characteristics".

And yea, there are actually four woofs - but the elder female was off somewhere dreaming of tennis balls. The male pup, pictured, never leaves my whereabouts...

-----

As an aside, you'll notice in the LR pic, there is no gear. No racks, no amps, no nothing. I think you guys that insist on enshrining your stuff between your mains in the LR (or FR) are pushing the WAF, big-time. It's actually really great to get it all far outa sight, and not have to kneel between the JBL gods to make adjustments or change the source material.

JMO...

Ian Mackenzie
07-29-2006, 06:06 PM
Okay,

So its all in with all the nibbles still.

We need another pic with lovely wifey, I recall she was quite fond of these JBL Gods.

I see the Widget is glued to the chair, where's the Stereophile magazine?

Excuse le rant above.

Ian

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 05:29 AM
I'd change just one word: "...which for the most part is not noticed until REALLY COMPARATIVE listening is done."

It sounded pretty damned good - you have to have something better to be able to notice.

I stand corrected..comparative is a much better word ( in fact it's perfect for me) because I don't have the ears of Widget and Ian.

When I have the time ( I'm working balls to the walls today [Sunday]) I'll write a little about how the brain preceives Auditory signals. There are 3 major ways people preceive auditory signals and depending upon how your brain is wired, depends on your experience. Widget ( and a few others I've noticed on the forum) are people who preceive auditory signals with their Conscious mind ( as opposed to their subconscious and unconscious mind). sounds trigger their minds to attention, to focus, they can hear the smallest of differences and imperfections, they have what is called Phonographic memory...Widget may even have a higher level of this talent....( different levels of talent between people)

so Widget when you say "if you aren't really critically listening and comparing reproduced instruments and voice with the real deal, then why bother at all..." I know what group you're in and that is your expeience ( and all others who have your talent) and I honor that GOD given talent.... but I'm wired a little different but I don't have time to write about it( spent too much time on this already) [ also understand there are 4 other modes of personal dynamic models that help shape this also]

anyway..great thread. Bo the graphs certainly point out what Widget was hearing and you were talking about...

Great looking puppy you have also..

well back to work..

Robh3606
07-30-2006, 08:57 AM
Comparative is a good word. I think your right Ian about long term listening. There are some changes that are immediately apparent many times they are subtle but still there. It's only after a you get retuned/re calibrated and then change do you really hear it for what it is. It may be a change to some or an improvement to others depending on your own personal preferences. I am struggling with this right now. I have made too many changes in both my set-ups in too quickly. My old reliable which I have used as a reference for years has been modified and at first I was thrilled now I am not too sure the trade offs and differences between then and now is really what I want. Should underline I because thats really what it all boils down too as JBLnsince1959 aptly pointed out. We are all wired a bit different and certain preferences are going to be more important than others. My main issue in the change in way the horns image. Even though the new horns are what I feel is a more natural presentation I am struggling to unlearn what I have become used too over the past couple of years. I am finding this much more difficult that I thought. Most system changes I can just go with the flow and move on. For some reason this one is not that easy and I don't understand why. It's almost like I have a different set of speakers which in actuality I do. I think I need a chil pill and let things work themselves out.

Hey Widget


I rarely have music just playing in the room... when I toss a disc on the player I am fully engaged and am wholly involved.... I realize that many like loud clean music while they go about their lives... for them investing in a Bryston 10B would be an unnecessary and foolish expense, but if you are really into listening, then it becomes much more compelling.


You and I are very different. I have music on all the time both at home and at work. When I am doing things at home and at work I think it's great to help you get through some mundane tasks at work as an example. When that's going on I am certainly not in critcal listen mode or I would never be able to get the task at hand done. I have music on right now as I type this and usually do whenever I am online both at work and home. The only time I am really "On" is when I sit in my chair to listen. I try not to be "On" all the time and try to look from the perspective of "whats right". I find it very difficult to relax and enjoy the music if I am listening for warts. Too distracting at least for me. I don't want to hear what's wrong at that point I just want to relax and get lost in the music. If it slaps you in the face I can see that but I don't sit down to listen looking for issues unless or course I just made a change. Then it's damn hard to find the off switch so you can relax again.

Hello Ian


Any Bose Fans on the forums..??

I like my brother in laws at his house.

Rob:)

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 09:23 AM
Rob:

I know exactly where your coming from in many ways i'm the same...music is playing in the backgroud for me also right now. I have two listening modes..one enjoyment and thenanother for comparative/critical listen which i have to switch gears and really focus ( doesn't come easy unless it's so bad that I automatically switch gears to figure it out)

I would like to make sure my previous comments are not misunderstood...I was talking about how someones physical brain is hard wired, nothing we can do about it, just how we are born ( in particular using the NLP model in this case)....with that information I can know exactly HOW someone will listen ( and with a little more information about other personal systems [ other models] I can tell you alot more)..

the completely subjective side which would include someones individual tastes and preferences is another matter.....

It's a fine line that most people are not aware of.....


My old reliable which I have used as a reference for years has been modified and at first I was thrilled now I am not too sure the trade offs and differences between then and now is really what I want.
Rob:)

Yes, i've been there, one thing i've learned over the years is that it's easy to confuse "different" with "better". For example when a NORMAL person is listening to a system ( not someone with a finely tuned auditory brain like Widget) they get use to hearing it...now every system, no matter how hard we try to balance it, will have some imbalances or it will be more "friendly" to a certain freq range. for example maybe one setup will showcase horns and another system they will be more muted...if I've been listening to the muted horns and then make change that showcases the horns I'm going to be real excited because i'm hearing things in a way i didn't before...HOWEVER, after a peroid of time.. well as B.B. King says - "The Thrill is Gone" and we see what it is we are really hearing...

anyway.. this what I experience and I have to be careful when I make major changes because 60% of time I want to go back....

Robh3606
07-30-2006, 10:19 AM
Hello JBLnsince1959


I would like to make sure my previous comments are not misunderstood...I was talking about how someones physical brain is hard wired, nothing we can do about it, just how we are born ( in particular using the NLP model in this case)....with that information I can know exactly HOW someone will listen ( and with a little more information about other personal systems [ other models] I can tell you alot more)..

the completely subjective side which would include someones individual tastes and preferences is another matter.....


I understood you. It's really both that does the trick. Neat stuff on the hardwire end. What is the NLP model??

Rob:)

Ducatista47
07-30-2006, 10:36 AM
I've never been a background music guy, but I do consider that a product of my personality, wiring and abilities. In other words, an accident of nature.:D I never thought there was any virtue associated with my preference.

When I am trying to accomplish something (build a computer, sort through information, spend too much time at LH;)) and put music on, I keep listening to the music and do a lousy job. This may be exacerbated by my inability to want to play music I'm not really, really in to. For me, it's like asking me to have sex with Renee Zellweger and type an expense report at the same time. I don't know about you guys, but I would mess up both activities, pretty much, and end up regreting the circumstances of both.

This is a great thread, very useful. Nothing like my ignorant rants, for sure!

On Topic, I am hoping a noted Down Under member will build a custom replacement for my 5235. At this point, I'm still hoping to avoid eq for now.

Clark in Peoria

Renee, if you're reading this, I'm willing to give it a try! :bouncy: Hey, that's the kind of guy I am...

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 10:53 AM
I've never been a background music guy, but I do consider that a product of my personality, wiring and abilities. In other words, an accident of nature.:D I never thought there was any virtue associated with my preference.

When I am trying to accomplish something (build a computer, sort through information, spend too much time at LH;)) and put music on, I keep listening to the music and doing a lousy job. This may be exacerbated by my inability to want to play music I'm not really, really in to. For me, it's like asking me to have sex with Renee Zellweger and type an expense report at the same time. I don't know about you guys, but I would mess up both activities, pretty much, and end up regreting the circumstances of both.

...

well if the music is to loud I can't concentrate either, has be just the right volumn for me....sets the mood so to speak.

boputnam
07-30-2006, 11:12 AM
I have music on all the time both at home and at work. Me, likewise.

It's the last thing to get packed when moving, and the first to be unpacked, even if to run while only sitting on crates until things are ready. Audio runs 100% of the time I am awake, and quite a bit of when I'm, sleeping! It's 4301B's in the shop and work office, the 4345's in the FR, 4406's flown in the BR, Monitor 1's flown in the master bath and on the patio, and Alesis Monitor One's in the studio/study. I'm pretty critical of the audio quality the whole time. TV is on about 15% of the time, by comparison.

The treasured time is when we're not gigging, nor otherwise too busy, and can really only then do "session critical listening", in front of the 4345 system.

But we are so far OT... :p

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 11:35 AM
Hello JBLnsince1959



I understood you. It's really both that does the trick. Neat stuff on the hardwire end. What is the NLP model??

Rob:)

Hi Rob:

I knew you did, I just didn't want other people to misread it..

It's a branch of NLP...If you're interested I can PM you the title of a book that's a good primer for what I discussed...let me know

while there are 3 major modes, there are 6 possible combinations when all three levels of conscienceness are combined with the three types of preceiving information ( visual, auditory, kinesthesic ). each one will display different "talents"...

sorry if we're too far off Bo...this is the last I'll say on this

take care
rick

Mr. Widget
07-30-2006, 12:18 PM
I have music on all the time both at home and at work.I guess I over stated the point... I was thinking in terms of whether or not some random forum member should consider buying a $2K Bryston 10B or not. If you do a fair amount of critical listening then it should be considered, but if you just enjoy music and are content with what you have then it is likely a waste of time and money.

When I said I rarely just have music playing I was thinking of my primary music system... I simply don't use it as a "background" music system... I do have systems in my shop (my work), my office, and my living room... they are all on filling the void... but that isn't listening. I also rarely drive without music playing... I like music, that is what this is ultimately all about isn't it?

That said, when I sit down to really listen, usually for a couple of hours at the end of the day, I really focus and enjoy listening to the nuance of the performance as well as the lyric and melody... sometimes I feel I can hear the studio or picture the venue... it is wonderful to get completely immersed in the musical experience.

Golden ears? That's nonsense... At different times in the process of measuring drivers I have had two different forum members over that were simply not able to hear sinusoidal frequencies above 9-10KHz... they both still heard the differences in crappy tweeters vs. good ones and they both still have a passion for audio. We may all listen with differing intensity and focus, we may have had different levels of experience, but we all hear a lot more than we realize... I think that's why we love this stuff. We aren't a forum dedicated to boom boxes or table radios.


Widget

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 01:31 PM
When I said I rarely just have music playing I was thinking of my primary music system... I simply don't use it as a "background" music system... I do have systems in my shop (my work), my office, and my living room... they are all on filling the void... but that isn't listening. I also rarely drive without music playing... I like music, that is what this is ultimately all about isn't it?

Widget

that would make more sense as it would keep you focused or awake..( for others it would be a distraction. others could care less)


I was thinking in terms of whether or not some random forum member should consider buying a $2K Bryston 10B or not. If you do a fair amount of critical listening then it should be considered, but if you just enjoy music and are content with what you have then it is likely a waste of time and money.



exactly my point about the ashly..it will do 99.9% of what the average guy needs


We may all listen with differing intensity and focus, we may have had different levels of experience, but we all hear a lot more than we realize

Widget

exactly..well put




I think that's why we love this stuff. We aren't a forum dedicated to boom boxes or table radios.


Widget

We're NOT???? Damn..what's next??? everyone against Bose???;) ( Ok bad joke)

Ian Mackenzie
07-30-2006, 03:24 PM
Bo,

When you did the review and re Eq'd the system what are your L Pad settings? Like this?

Incidentally, these L pads a very sloppy in that the position of the marker is no indication of the exect level. They are also unreliable . Both Ed and I found this out doing discrete calibration of L pads.

Ian

johnaec
07-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Bo - what was the signal source for those curves with SmaartLive? (Pulse, pink, since, etc.).

Are you going to be using SmaartLive to set up Jerry Day?

John

boputnam
07-31-2006, 09:22 AM
When you did the review and re Eq'd the system what are your L Pad settings? Like this? No, they were all at "0", best one can interpolate on those.


Bo - what was the signal source for those curves with SmaartLive? (Pulse, pink, since, etc.).

Are you going to be using SmaartLive to set up Jerry Day? Yes, we used Pink Noise, but with the power of the Smaart Transfer Function one can use routine source material, just the same. So, Widget listened, I tweaked...

Yes, Smaart goes to every show. This Jerry Day we're bringing in L-Acoustic dV-DOSC line arrays/subs. Much of that is proprietary presets, but there is still a need to EQ for the amphitheatre. You comin' around??

johnaec
07-31-2006, 10:10 AM
You comin' around??'Plannin' on it. 'Hope to get there a little early - 'need any help? ;)

John

boputnam
07-31-2006, 05:50 PM
Gates at 11 - you know the way...

Thanks for the generous offer!!, but we should have it covered. We do need appreciative ears, so you're in!! There's a great line-up again this year - a Django style cover band for opener. Should be very tasty...