PDA

View Full Version : JBL M552 or BRYSTON B10 sub?



Paky33
07-07-2006, 06:11 PM
I use a M552 for my 4350. Iwant buy a Bryston B10 sub.
Do you have same experiece?
Bryston B10 is really better than JBL M552? It cost really very much and first to buy I want an opinion from the expert
Thanks

Paky33

glen
07-10-2006, 05:21 PM
I'm no expert, but for what it's worth, the handful of recording studios I've visited were all using Bryston crossovers, and the guys who purchased them probably were experts.
They seem to be the workhorse choice for recording studio crossovers that JBL once was.

scott fitlin
07-10-2006, 05:51 PM
I had the Bryston 10B crossovers, and they are very clean, and very well made. But, I find Bryston a bright sound.

The 10B sub will work flawlessly, but there is one minor thing I dont like about them. On the LF ouput there is NO ouput level attenuator, and this means you have to use the amps input level control to adjust for level.

boputnam
07-10-2006, 06:34 PM
I've tried the following:

JBL 5234A
JBL M552
Ashly XR1001

In that order, each has been an improvement over the former.

A custom Bryston is shipping, as we speak. I will post my impressions if favorable, or you will see it on eBay... :o:

Paky33
07-26-2006, 06:33 AM
I have bought the Bryston.
It is fantastic!
The sound is very improved in comparison to the JBL M552.
I am really satisfied of the purchase apart the cost. It in Italy it costs 3.300!

Pasquale Lenza

boputnam
07-26-2006, 09:07 AM
I have bought the Bryston.
It is fantastic!
The sound is very improved in comparison to the JBL M552.
I am really satisfied of the purchase apart the cost. It in Italy it costs 3.300!

Pasquale LenzaYea, Pasquale, I think your post sums it up. Bryston beats others, hands-down. And, that quality is costly...

pumache
02-05-2008, 02:11 AM
Hello
I want to test a Bi amp configuration using the passive filter of my JBL 4333 B pair and an active filter such as the JBL M552. The 4333 B is already ready with 2 pairs of cable connections in the back and the rotactor to switch betwen mono or Bi amp.
The hi/med amplifier will be a Mc intosh MC 7300 and the bass will be through a Harman Kardon Citation 16 B
Have you tested the JBL M552 and do you think I will have a better result than using my louspeakers with only one amp in mono ampp configuration ?
Thanks for help
Eric (Paris France)

boputnam
02-05-2008, 07:36 AM
Have you tested the JBL M552 and do you think I will have a better result than using my louspeakers with only one amp in mono amp configuration ?Biamp is always the preferred method. It gives better control on the woofer (removes that big inductor from the signal path). The 552 is a good active crossover.

Mr. Widget
02-05-2008, 08:15 AM
Biamp is always the preferred method.Yes, but there are trade offs... if you have a really top drawer front end and quality amps, adding a crappy electronic crossover will really ruin the sound. If you have average electronics, then there is little sonic damage one of these lesser units will do and you will gain the benefits of biamping even with a PA grade device since the hard glare and thin transistory sound will be masked by the same sort of sound already present.

Not to beat this to death, but if you have, say a vintage Mark Levinson or other high quality preamp and amp and you pop a Rane, Ashly, JBL, etc. PA crossover in the system, the noise and harsh veiled sound will be quite a disappointment.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
02-05-2008, 10:11 AM
Hi Eric,

I dont thave time to look at the biamp require for the 4333 right now but perhaps more important priority than anything else is getting the biamp crossover point right.

More often than not people assume its all just plug and play and by luck get it working or get a less then positive outcome attempting to biamp.

JBL usually provide some data on this ....12 db slope (butterworth) will provide the closest approximation to the JBL filter card used 52-5123.

The M series JBL crossovers are all LR 24 db slopes as I recall. I dont know what the Bryston stock settings are.

The crossover point is 800 hertz and way JBL setup the horn in those systems is relatively critical to obtaining a smooth transition at the crossover point. That will make or break this design in terms of the way its sounds.

Previously we have had people come along looking for the world trying to biamp with some of these old vintage systems only to get themselves into one hell of a mess.

Anyway, I would first carefully try the JBL crossover and test if you have measurement capability. The Bryston is a huge step to take before sorting this out.

All things considered the Marchland crossovers would be a better fit for the purpose in your situation. You can order the crossover parameters and they make a good product. The M7300 is massive amp by the way, you will only need a few watts!

Whatever ....biamping is a lot more wires and complexity.

The other thing you could do is look at re building the passive crossover using the JBL Charge-coupling topology. That would certainly give your 4333b a new lease of life.

Good luck.

Ian

johnaec
02-05-2008, 05:25 PM
...since the hard glare and thin transistory sound will be masked by the same sort of sound already present.Tell us how you really feel... :p

John

Mr. Widget
02-05-2008, 06:34 PM
Tell us how you really feel... :p
That was the polite way of saying, "If you really care about how this stuff sounds you don't want some half-assed piece of crap F'ing up your system." ;)


Widget

BTW: Ian makes a good point... in general you will likely screw up the sound with any active crossover if you don't approach with a great deal of caution and care.

Ian Mackenzie
02-05-2008, 07:30 PM
That was the polite way of saying, "If you really care about how this stuff sounds you don't want some half-assed piece of crap F'ing up your system." ;)


Widget

BTW: Ian makes a good point... in general you will likely screw up the sound with any active crossover if you don't approach with a great deal of caution and care.

Ageed.

For a long time people were sceptical about the impact of electronic (active crossovers), terms like veiling and sibilance were the words of audio buffs.

But if you are fortunate enough to have a grand prized bit of gear you will sound like the Pope preaching to the hoards for they will not understand.

As they say what you don't know you won't miss and that seems to be the way in this business.

"About 2 years ago I asked porchedpm to take out the Ashly active crossover and just passively crossover the loudspeakers to his Pass Labs X250 power / X1 pre amp because I felt there was potential for subjective impovement.

It took bit of convincing for porchedpm to try this but after he removed the active crossover he was glued to his system till the wee hours and sent a glowing email...to the effect that his system came alive and it sounded lik real music with only some loss in bass firmess in passive mode. Then I arranged a Pass Labs diy active crossover and he has the best of both worlds."


I dont think there is any secret that mixing real quality and with plain crap and you end up with vanilla but the point about getting the crossover point right cannot be understated!

Frankly day the I can build or find a loudspeaker I like that does not require the extra amps and filters will be a blessing.

Edit. About the only people biamping at the recent CES were Pass labs ....demonstrating their new loudspeaker.

Ducatista47
02-05-2008, 11:28 PM
What Ian said! I couldn't agree more.

"But if you are fortunate enough to have a grand prized bit of gear you will sound like the Pope preaching to the hoards for they will not understand."

I know this one personally. If you have some great gear and sources, don't dare mention how much better it sounds or you will be accused of being an audiophile instead of a music lover. And being full of crap.

The thing that makes it possible for me, and most so called audiophiles, is luckily preferring not to listen at really high SPL's. That is, for instance, why "single driver" type speakers and the lower power electronics they can use are a quest that may yield results for me. Small amps with really good sound and speakers with almost no crossover and a (nearly) point source. Low damping factors and smaller currents and wire for a smooth, natural and relaxed yet detailed sound.

By audiophiles I am not talking about fools with power conditioners and $2000 interconnects. Few of those have ever enjoyed being blown out of the room by two clean watts and having to turn it down. It makes a believer out of a guy.

I have not yet heard or heard of gear that can do that at high SPL's. Single driver type cones have a low xmax and cannot produce a ton of sound. Large SET's are neither fish nor foul and lose the advantages of their smaller brethren. You lose a trainload of cash, turn your listening room into a sauna and don't get what you were after.

So once you decide you need to turn it up, your possible solutions become fewer and less satisfying. One approach that might work is an all horn system. Ask Steve Schell. And maybe Nelson Pass has the high powered amp thing solved, I don't know from personal experience.

In a way we are all on the right track, because efficient speakers manufactured to high standards are a necessary ingredient to any really successful solution. Jim Lansing did us all a huge favor. With a tip of the hat to Western Electric, of course.

Sorry if I drifted off topic, but this resonates with me: (Ian again): "Frankly (the) day I can build or find a loudspeaker I like that does not require the extra amps and filters will be a blessing."

Want to cheat? Forget loudspeakers and look into Stax Omega II headphones. Not very social though!


Clark

boputnam
02-06-2008, 01:31 PM
... in general you will likely screw up the sound with any active crossover if you don't approach with a great deal of caution and care.'zactly.

My hope (expectation) was, Eric would approach this via JBL recommended crossover points and slopes (as per my pm's to him), and he would solicit specific experience, here (as per my pm's to him).

Having said that, in-spite of all the posts to the contrary, I think even if using active crossovers of modest cost, proper implementation with careful EQ results in superior sound to the passive route. JMO (and personal experience)...

Ian Mackenzie
02-06-2008, 01:47 PM
'zactly..........Yankeee slang:D

Bo,

I agree with everything you said but its getting that to happen in controlled conditions that is the challenge.

Not everyone has experience in these matters, particularly eq and this whole active thing is seen as a quick fix for nirvana by the layman which frankly it ain't. Trying to measue the stuff and interpret sane results it not easy either.

IME for the lower crossover frequencies around 300 hertz, its no boner because of the hump in the upper bass they have with the woofer acting like a bandpass filter in passive mode and less than ideal damping at Fb from the 0.5 ohm dcr Chokes JBL used.

At higher crossover points 800 hertz and above you need to be alot more discriminating and really careful.

The former passive crossover "symptomatic" issues are not as accute but there is a requirement for a lot more precision and this is where the passive voltage drives that have been tailored exactly for a given design are difficult to get right with an active filter. This is where it gets cocked up. ie example 4430/35 people mis understand what is required. Then we have people doing the whole diy deal with 2397 horns atop their big 4 ways

The result is a lot of odd ball screwed up results and noise in threads that then compounds itself later on. A while ago we tried to clean up the Tech forums as a result of this sort of situation where there was a lot of rambling and little if any certification of what was in fact correct.

At some point I think it would be useful to document in a thread titled Biamping XYZ JBLs and list what works with different active crossovers.

The problem as I see it is the 5235 cards are quite scare now for the prescribed JBL crossover settings and we have a experience / education void with more recent members joining and making enquiries..

The other issue is most off the shelf active crossovers are set up for LR 24 db filters and not all are contrinuously variable for frequency selection (exceptions DEQX with required NASA training, the Ashly wihch allows useful variable Q of the crossover point, and the Passlabs which offers numerous discrete settings).

These crossover are the Norm for Pro PA use.

But in use the JBL Pro Series Monitors for example are rarely a classic text book symmetrical filter and getting it right requires a degree of EQ fudge factor if all you have at your disposal is an off the shelf active "pro unit"..

I just think it should be thought out and perhaps slotted into a reference area once the facts are worked out...for a particular case in question

Ian

boputnam
02-06-2008, 02:06 PM
Not everyone has experience in these matters, particularly eq and this whole active thing is seen as a quick fix for nirvana by the layman which frankly it ain't.Experience is something you get right after you need it. :p I prefer to encourage learning and trialing rather than not.


I dont thave time to look at the biamp require for the 4333 right now but perhaps more important priority than anything else is getting the biamp crossover point right. 'zactly, which is why I figgered a sticky in the Tech area would facilitate these types of things... It is 800Hz, and...


JBL usually provide some data on this ....12 db slope (butterworth) will provide the closest approximation to the JBL filter card used 52-5123. ... :yes:, as per the 4333B (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4331b_4333b.pdf) manual.

However, I've found steeper slopes preferable. But that's just me... :o:

Ian Mackenzie
02-06-2008, 02:41 PM
Well,

Your not a silly as your avatar suggests!:applaud:

scott fitlin
02-13-2008, 07:28 AM
I use a M552 for my 4350. Iwant buy a Bryston B10 sub.
Do you have same experiece?
Bryston B10 is really better than JBL M552? It cost really very much and first to buy I want an opinion from the expert
Thanks

Paky33The Bryston 10B is all discrete, big power supply, they bias the unit to run Class A, and it takes whatever you throw at it. What I mean is active crossover distort when pushed too hard, the Brystons are the toughest I have ever used. Thbey dont crack up sonicallyn o matter how hard you hit them.

If your gonna use them for subs order them with the +10DB INPUT GAIN OPTION.

The M552 cant compARE TO THE BRYSTONS. They are good for what they are at their level, but Bryston is a whole 'nother level.

AND, this company will help every way they can, service is incredible, last week I called bryston, I asked for James Tanner, The President, he and I never spoke, he took the time to talk to me, and they are doing some custom work for me, no computer swithboard, no tech, the receptionins asked my name, and put me throug to James, he and I spoke with Mike Pickett, an engineer for Bryston, and we made our arrangements.

THE PRESIDENT and he is a nice guy too. But, my point is, Bryston really cares about what you buy from them, and they are a real, bonafide company run by humans, NOT automation.

But, the Bryston 10B,s are THE MOST well made crossover I have ever had. A pair weighs what a Crown D-150 weighs.

10B subs are the way to go, and JBL woofers love em.

scott fitlin
02-13-2008, 07:34 AM
I've tried the following:

JBL 5234A
JBL M552
Ashly XR1001

In that order, each has been an improvement over the former.

A custom Bryston is shipping, as we speak. I will post my impressions if favorable, or you will see it on eBay... :o:I am back to my 10B,s, customized for my system, I am using them to drive 3 BGW 750G,s running 12 TAD,s, 1 Mc-2125 on 2395 horns, six of em, and a bryston 2B on Bi Radial tweeters.

The TAD,s LOVE these crossovers, the BASS, you gotta hear Pink Floyd-The Wall in my place.

They remain clean at any level i have hit them with, and the mids are drop dead clean, the 10B MC amp is a better combo than the old Crown 150 was.

I have a 3B SST running my 16 JBL tweeters, so fine sounding, it takes some work to balance out, but once you do.

Bo I was wrong, they are the BEST xovers I have ever used.

Ella and Louie doing Summertime, O man, incredible.

scott fitlin
02-13-2008, 07:37 AM
I have bought the Bryston.
It is fantastic!
The sound is very improved in comparison to the JBL M552.
I am really satisfied of the purchase apart the cost. It in Italy it costs 3.300!

Pasquale LenzaYeah, youll find out, these dont fall apart sonically, no matter what.

They make gereat sounding low end too, the highs, SSSS, no CCHHHH, mids are HUGE sounding.
:)

Paky33
09-20-2008, 02:31 AM
I change my Bryston B10 Sub for a Nelson Pass XVR1.
I put in sale my Bryston that I buy in September 2006. It mount the last mainboard and power bord version.

Mr. Widget
09-20-2008, 08:41 AM
I change my Bryston B10 Sub for a Nelson Pass XVR1. Would you mind telling us what differences you found between the Bryston and the Pass Labs units?

I have heard both sound quite good... I have never had an opportunity to directly compare them though.


Widget