Altec Woffer ID help

[garyl]

I am getting a bit confused by info from others and need some help with ALTEC 416 woofers.

I know they made alot of different models of this 416 woofer so how do you tell what it is you are looking at?

Here is what I think I know, and I can be wrong.

I have 416-8As in my 19 clones. They are 15" with a stamped frame that has braces on the rear of the mounting rim. Mine look exactly like this except Black and they say 416-8A on the back cover.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/416-A.jpg

I just won a set of 416-8Bs that are completely different. The frame is cast and the mounting flange is wider with slotted holes rather then just round holes. Think these are designed for mounting front or rear.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/416-8B.jpg

I also expect the 416-8Bs will be the 16" frame but I am being told they could be 15"

I am kind of lost here in that I always thought the cast frame 416s were 16" and the stamped frame 416s are 15".

I know there are alot of different variations with magnet structures when you start getting into the C and Z models.

Can anyone clear up any of this?

Is it possible for one of our highly respected members to do a sort of Pictorial Tutorial and explain the differences we run into and always have a need to know.
It would be a great sticky for those of us who are always looking for raw drivers and never seem to know exactly what we are getting in to.

Thanks

Gary

[moldyoldy]

Hi, Gary,

It all started with the 803B.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/components/414a-515b-803b.htm

To avoid conflicts with a horn of the same model number, the 803B became the 416A. All were 16 ohm. When Altec added the 8 ohm line, it became the 416-8A, sporting a new cone and coil. (Everything till now shared the appearance of your first photo with small frames)

Shortly after, Altec switched 15" cast (yeah, they look stamped, but look closer) frames for the heavier 16" versions, but they were still 416-8As. (These have the frames in your bottom pix, with the magnets and covers of the top one.)

The 418-8B followed, (bottom pic) and has an entirely new stepped AlNiCo motor assy (that's all magnet, no cover on this one), but is like the 416-8A in all other respects, including cone assy. All -8Bs are large frame.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/components/416-8b.htm

Then came the 416-8C when supply issues forced the conversion to ferrite magnets, with a slightly different cone assy. All 8-Cs are large frame.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/components/416-8c.htm

There was also the Z-versions, which were factory-installed in cabinets or OEM'd, and mirrored their current counterparts with the exception of no foilcals, and no magnet covers. The Z's were just like the 8As (came in both frames too), but came in 2 Z choices, 8 or 16. There is no Z version of the -8B or -8C.

The software for any of the versions was similar enough that GPA now offers a single 8 or 16 ohm kit for use in any of the 416s.
My favorite of the lot is the 8B, but there's not a lot of audible difference. They all kick butt.

[garyl]

Excellent info Moldy. I am still a little confused but let me ask it this way.

A friend and member here just picked up a pair of 19s that are pretty rough. Price was right and they will be brought back to their full glory.

My confusion came from these because on cabinet has a deffinate 416-8B with the Mag cover in place and no screw to remove the cover unless they are under the spider.
The other cabinet has a speaker with the same frame and looks identicle however the cover is off this one and it appears to be a 416-8A with the newer large frame if I am understanding this right. Here;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/TJ-8A.jpg

This means he has two different woofs. and one is missing the rear cover.

The real question is should he try to find a match so that both are the same and then send them to GPA for rebuild?
Obviously if he should match them then the 416-8B is what he would be searching for.

He also has a line on a nice pair of 416-8Cs he might be able to get reasonably but we don't know what to do here with any of this. Do the 8 Cs sound as good as the As or Bs?

Any advice?

Thanks again

Gary

[moldyoldy]

Yes, those are different drivers, your last pic is of a 416-8Z. That said, whether you'll hear a difference or not is questionable. If they're functional, play 'em. If you can hear a difference, find a mate to the one you like best. The only functional difference is the magnets. Alternatively later-model 19s had 416-8Cs as stock issue, so that's another option.

As for rebuilding, GPAs the place IF THEY NEED IT. They do recharge the AlNiCos as part of the recone service as well. There are plenty of 416s still around that are in great original shape with lots of life left.

Note again-there is no magnet cover on the 8B, everything you see there is magnet, and non-removable. As for the mag covers for the older AlNiCos, they're not important.

As to the frames, the old ones only mount to the rear of baffles, the new ones go front or back. Only other signifigant diff is a 1/2" or 1" gasket.

[garyl]

Thank you again Moldy, Guess I didn't pay attention because I had the last pic figured for a old style 416-8A.

My buddy will be sending his out to GPA but now he will continue his search for another 416-8B to match the one he has. He wants to bring these 19s back to original so the Z has to go.

Funny you should mention about the mounting. When I was building my 19 clones and collecting the parts, 8Bs just could not be found.
I did find 8As that had just been done by GPA so this is how I overcame the mounting problem. Someone might flame me for this but they do sound just great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Gamalot/Cab11.jpg

Gary

[Steve Schell]

Hi Moldyoldy,

You said: "It all started with the 803B." That's certainly true in regard to the model name confusion, but the 803/416 series actually goes waaay back.

The original 803 was introduced as the bass driver for the new "small" VOTT system, the model 800, in 1947. This was a lower cost system using an 800Hz. crossover point and a small format high frequency driver. The 803 used a smaller motor than the 515 woofer used in the larger systems, and (at first) used an inexpensive stamped steel basket sourced from Utah- see picture below. Within a year or two Altec upgraded the 803 with a stronger magnet and a cast basket; this may be when the name was changed to 803A. Early 803As were gray, and the ones after about 1952 were green. The 803B with its pleated cloth surround replaced the 803A in the early 1960s (I think).

[moldyoldy]

Thanks for the extra info, Steve! That certainly does look like a Utah basket. Do you know the progession of the spider, were early ones the phenolic hinge, or always ribbed?

I thought of another one, the 416 is basis for the LF portion of the 603 Duplexes, too.

[Steve Schell]

That's a good question, moldyoldy. I can't remember ever examining the spider on an early 803. The other 15" Altecs from the period like the 515 woofer and 603 Dia-cone used the phenolic spider, so my best guess is that the 803 did also.

The 603 series weren't really Duplex models (unless there's some model I'm overlooking), they were called Dia-cone due to their combination of aluminum center dome (DIAphragm) and normal cone. The dome had a 604-like multicellular horn mounted over it, a spectacularly unsuccessful design in my opinion. They actually sound almost decent when unbaffled sitting on the bench, but the bass hopelessly overpowers the treble when installed in a cabinet. Jim Lansing's earlier 15H field coil 15 is a much better balanced speaker, despite having no center dome at all.