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boputnam
11-07-2003, 10:07 PM
Dixie Bell!!

Sherwin Williams pigments and using a Martin Senour "Bright Life" Latex Eggshell Enamel, Neutral Base (Qt.):

Black: 22/32
Blue: 1 oz + 16/32
Violet: 16/32
Red Oxide: 1/64

I got one qt., cost $15.63 (plus a discretionary tip for the 1-hr iteration...).

I went to the best paint guy I know on the coast. Used him for >12-yrs matching the most diverse of projects. It took me about 6-mos to coordinate my weekday schedule to meet (plus, I refused to leave baby 4301B overnight - it might have gotten frightened... ;) ). He's that good.

Ken loaths the auto paint readers - the "shooters". IHHO, they just aren't close enough to "eye". Started with a color swatch book, and iterated from there. He admitted this was a tough color to match - a most odd color of dull-slate blue. But, he wouldn't stop until it was "spot on". We even touched-up some nicks on these baby-est of the 43xx series.

Nice. :coolness:

I'm sure, if we restarted fresh, knowing what he learnt, we could shorten the iteration and use less pigment(s), but this is a great match.

If you're in-need, and haven't a Sherwin Williams local nearby, I'd happily send a qt your way. Lemme know... :)

4313B
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
Yeah Baby!!!

Alex Lancaster
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
Great!, now my various knock-offs will sound right!.

Alex.

Audiobeer
11-07-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Great!, now my various knock-offs will sound right!.

Alex.

:D :D :D :D

gyusher
11-08-2003, 02:54 AM
I work in one of Sherwin Williams National Labs that works only with large buisnesses that paint wood and composite building materials. I will still try to find the color in their data base. . .I might find the actual paint that was used? ? ? ? If so I will pass it on to you. . .Color is part of it as is film properties. . .
BTW I have worked with color matching for over 35 years and for the most part I agree with your friends comment however we have some color computers in our lab that will blow you away. . .Trouble is knowing how to interput the info you get. I was a "Do it by eye" person untill I started using some of these "Shooters" to solve difficult matches. I am not near expert at it but we have those who are and I watch in awe at some of these guys.

Mr. Widget
11-08-2003, 03:09 AM
Why was Sammy Hagar so into red anyway?

So now that the paint is figured out we need to work on the grill cloth.

Bo, are you game?

I was discussing this with a friend. If a few of us go in on it we can have a bolt custom dyed.

Alex Lancaster
11-08-2003, 07:33 AM
This is getting scarier and scarier, what We need is a friend at JPL (Pasadena), not JBL (Northridge).

Alex.

boputnam
11-08-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
Bo, are you game?

I was discussing this with a friend. If a few of us go in on it we can have a bolt custom dyed. Of course!! :dancin:

It's interesting that these two aspects (JBL Blue baffle and grill cloth blue hue) of the Studio Monitor series are no easier to duplicate than is the engineering, cabinetry and transducers of the lineage. That just makes me nutz. :nutz: By-design, or merely unintended consequences...?

And, Guy, it'd be great to know what this baffle blue really was. Keep diggin...!

gyusher
11-09-2003, 06:23 PM
You know I never thought a lot about the blue faced JBLs. . .I knew they were out there but I always though it to be sacrilage to mess around with the front baffle. . .Now with my own refinishing job comming up. . . .
Hopefully by tomorrow night I will have something on the blue. . .I think I have the black nailed, but doubtful it could be bought as its OEM only. . .There might be a consumer cross over. . .I will check that too. I think the blue could be put in the same system. . .If someone has a standard now from the latest color matching session PM me and if you could mail it to me I will put it in that EAW system. . .Killer paint, tough as nails and water base. .Sticks to anything. . .They paint metal, wood, composite products all Pro gear meant to take a beating. . .Almost as hard as a two componet ststem. . .Nice soft sheen about 10-15 gloss. . .

Oldmics
11-09-2003, 07:30 PM
O.K. So maybe I'm dense but is this color the same paint that is used not only on the baffle board and enclosures but is also used on the componets such as speakers and drivers? Oldmics

gyusher
11-10-2003, 03:43 PM
I cant speak to what JBL does but the black paint I am talking about is the black paint EAW uses to paint everything but the drivers. . .I intend to use this black to refinish the black on my 112s. . .I will reduce it some to prevent the texture that EAW has. I havnt found exactly what resin system JBL used for their blue. . .I see a inmate here has the formula. . . .I could make a small quanity of JBLs blue in this system if one of you will send me the color sample so I can match it. This would be the same paint only blue not black. . .Its the toughest water base paint I have ever seen. Hard to scratch and hangs on like grim death. . .
This might be more trouble than its worth. I will keep digging to find what system JBL used. . . . . .

speakerdave
11-10-2003, 07:37 PM
I'm just reading slackjawed. This has got to be the dandiest forum in the world.

David

gyusher
11-10-2003, 08:22 PM
boputnam,
I will take your formula in with me tomorrow and make a Qt. Then I have the color to put in the EAW system. . . .I will let you know. . . .You can actually match the texture with this stuff. . .It will take the rest of the week to make this. . .Actually I will be designing a totally new system. . .Who Knows. . . .

Oldmics
11-10-2003, 08:30 PM
O.K. So maybe I'm dense but is this blue color the same paint that is used not only on the baffle board and enclosures but is also used on the blue JBL componets such as speakers and drivers? Oldmics

Mr. Widget
11-10-2003, 11:30 PM
Hey Oldmics,

I don't know what JBL is using on their current products. The spatter texture used on the drivers is similar in texture at least to the blue baffle paint. I suspect that it is a completely different paint system than the one used on the wood baffles.

The vintage JBL components were given a wrinkle finish. Wrinkle finishes were used on precision optical equipment and lab equipment. I think JBL used this type of finish to show their attention to detail and precision. I was always astounded and impressed that even though most of the drivers that JBL built were installed in finished cabinets and would never be seen by the end user, JBL took great care to make each driver look beautiful. They started to economize with the Decade series and left the raw aluminum unpainted. Later when they went to ferrite magnets they went to spatter paint which is much easier to apply than the wrinkle finish and eventually even stopped producing proper name plates and serial numbers.

Wrinkle finishes are achieved using paints containing resins that have incompatible drying properties. An example would be a resin containing tung oil and alkyd or a resin containing tung oil and linseed oil. The resin constituents would dry at different rates causing wrinkling of the paint film.

There is a Sherwin Williams product called Polane T (T=texture) it's a polyurethane enamel. This product may be similar to the paint that gyusher is talking about. It allows a variety of textures depending on air/paint mixture and or amount of reducing (viscosity) of the paint. Sherwin William also used to make a product called suede base that was used in the automotive industry to texture certain car interior surfaces. It is basically a fine particulate in a suspension that is added to the paint.

Widget

gyusher
11-11-2003, 03:24 AM
This paint is about as tough as Polane but much cheaper. . .You are right about the texture finish. . .Spray it think and get "Snot" for a big texture , reduce it to where you either get the texture or "Orange peel" finish you want or farther to spray a fine finish. This Black is thick, nasty, gets all over you quick. . . .
This is not "Wrinkle" finish. . .Thats a whole other can of worms. . . .

Ian Mackenzie
11-15-2003, 11:31 PM
Bo,


Great work on the JBL Blue.

My paint/hardware store was unable to use these measures.

They use the X Y values and scan a sample in computor to come up with the right colour balance. I Should I look for another paint shop?

A can of paint would be too heavy to send so I was wondering if a small sample of the infamous paint about size of a bottle top could be sent by carrier pigeon.

What do you reckon Bo ?

Ian:smthsail:

gyusher
11-16-2003, 03:52 AM
They use X Y Z values by the color computer to check the color match but they have to use that formula to make the color hit. . .The problem is that 1/32nd on "As" machine might stray from 1/32nd on "Bs" machine not speaking to the difference in batches of the parent base.
BTW I am still looking for the original OEM color with no luck. I am going to use bo's formula for my color hit to the EAW white paint. . . .If I can ever get the time to do this. . . .

boputnam
11-16-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
A can of paint would be too heavy to send so I was wondering if a small sample of the infamous paint about size of a bottle top could be sent by carrier pigeon. What about using an empty Vegemite bottle headed-back for refill...? :rotfl:

Sure - I can do that, but lemme check on shipping of a quart. We'd do it if it were a 2245H, right? :yes:

Ian Mackenzie
11-16-2003, 12:30 PM
Okay Bo.

I will call a couple of paint factories here today and see what they have to say....I have a rostered day off, I call them JBL days..muhahahah

Ian

gyusher
11-16-2003, 04:16 PM
BO. . .
If you could send me 1/2 pint of this paint. . .I will pay you for your trouble. . .This way I will have a wet and dry standard that I can match to a better resin system. . .One similiar to EAWs Pro speaker cabinets. I can make this paint over the holidays and I will send you back the new quality. . . .eMail me at [email protected]

Thanks_____________Guy

boputnam
11-16-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by gyusher
If you could send me 1/2 pint of this paint. . .I will pay you for your trouble. . . Yea, sure, Guy, I'm game. Maybe that would give Ian the formula he can use downunder.

Hey Ian - USPostal Service looks like they'd charge something like $25 bucks to ship a quart. That is slow-boat, so by end-of-your-summer it'd be there... :hmm:

gyusher
11-16-2003, 06:18 PM
BO thanks. . .I have no interest in the blue myself but I am making the good paint in Clear, White and Black. . .I just as well make it in blue for future and to give you guys a great coating for those great JBLs. I have resourses available to me in SWs National Lab for Composite and wood building products. . .Plus we have a Chemist that does nothing but work on Audio gear coatings. . .Like I said I will do this over the Christmas Holidays. . .I have to work. . .No Vacation time left. . .I will have the place to myself. . . .

Ian Mackenzie
11-16-2003, 06:33 PM
Bo,

I have contacted a local specialist who can assist me.

He just requires a swatch and the details of the formula.

I will pm you.

Ian

boputnam
11-28-2003, 08:33 AM
Ney, Ian...

Be watching the Post, 'round about Tuesday... :smthsail:

;)

AudioGeek
11-30-2003, 06:11 PM
bo -

Any news yet on the blue grill cloth? I have a 4410 or 4412 grill I might be able to send as a sample. :yes: I'd like to get these recovered, as they're getting holes on the corners.

Let me know if I can help.

boputnam
11-30-2003, 06:17 PM
Hey...

I think, but am not certain, that The Widget took-on this one. At least I know he posted about doing so. Whether there's any progress to report, I can't know... :hmm: I do know he's been real busy of late...

AudioGeek
11-30-2003, 07:33 PM
Thanks for the update, bo. Guess I'll go bug The Widget...

:beamup:

Oldmics
11-30-2003, 07:42 PM
Hello AudioGeek,I am sending a few samples in to a mill to see if they can duplicate the original grill cloth on the JBL white,off white and burgendy.If you want to send me a sample of the blue cloth for me to send to the mill,P.M.me and I will give you info for contact.Check my other posting titled Grill Cloth.Oldmics

Mr. Widget
11-30-2003, 11:48 PM
Hi Bo, Oldmics, and welcome AudioGeek,

I have totally dropped the ball on this one. I ran into my fabric expert last night at a nearby restaurant and she bugged me about not getting her a sample of the "Blue".

I believe Giskard should have a bit left... are you checking this thread? If not, I will send you a PM. I need a sample as well as Oldmics. I would assume one of us could connect with a mill and find out what it would take to get this stuff.

Sorry about loosing the follow through... been building horns and reading up on MTM theory.

Widget

4313B
12-01-2003, 08:57 AM
Mr. Widget, I just mailed samples of the JBL Pro blue grille cloth to you and Oldmics.

AudioGeek
12-01-2003, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Widget!

I had PM'ed oldmics on this matter, but it looks like Giskard has beat me to it. That saves me from having to send the entire grill.

Thanks for the help, Giskard! Now, maybe there is hope for us that need the blue stuff!

:dancin:

Ian Mackenzie
12-04-2003, 01:46 PM
The parcel has just arrived from Bo,

I have in my possession a can of JBL blue paint!!!!

What a Hoot.

Thanks very much Bo, I'll have to send you an oil painting of someone special...muhahahah

Ian:smthsail:

boputnam
03-01-2004, 07:35 PM
Spent over 1 and a half hours this evening at the paint store. All I can say is, it was NOT a good day to color-match. I have no clue what was going on, but I appear to have walked into a color-challenged zone...

Against all my urging, Paint Dood tried to doctor the failed batch, and well, no surprise to me, it failed. Miserably. The man was tired, and his brain was already watching the evening news...

So, wednesday we start again, from SCRATCH. The best part might be, he also agreed to work in a more contemporary pigment set (I urged convincingly...), so if/when we get there, it will be transferable technology. What a concept...

This guy is good, and I've never seen this degree of failure in 10-years working with him. In short, my optimism, while bruised, remains high. We will lick this - I will (re)gain your trust!!

boputnam
04-22-2004, 07:28 AM
This is the batch that works, if you add white. This was the last pigment added in the match, and was omitted from the recipe.

So, any of you with this original batch - there were a few - need only add 21/32 fluid ounces of White. Maybe even "other" white brands would do...? I don't know, but it is worth the try.

Here's the corrected formula:


Sherwin Williams pigments and using a Martin Senour "Bright Life" Latex Eggshell Enamel, Neutral Base (Qt.):

Black: 22/32
Blue: 1 oz + 16/32
Violet: 16/32
Red Oxide: 1/64
White: 21/32

As posted on another Thread, I will be batching early next week, and am please to provide some tins to any DIY'ers... :yes:

I will QA/QC each and every tin...

Hofmannhp
04-22-2004, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
This is the batch that works, ..................I will QA/QC each and every tin...

thanks for your work Bo....:thmbsup:

here's my small participation in this job. the translation for all

- aussies
- red leafs
- krauts (like me)
- etc.

will try it soon with national available colors.

HP

boputnam
04-22-2004, 08:58 AM
Very cool, HansPeter...

I would love to know if it is successful! pm me your address, and I'll put into the Post one of the QA/QC tins next week, so you can check... :yes:

Thanks.

Hofmannhp
04-23-2004, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
Very cool, HansPeter...

I would love to know if it is successful! pm me your address, and I'll put into the Post one of the QA/QC tins next week, so you can check... :yes:

Thanks.

the new tin (can) alley is now 80mls north :yes:
(John Steinbeck is OUT....Bo is IN)

your'e great

HP

Bo: pls look to your PM

PS: the list in the my last thread is available as Excel file for translation of US qt's and ounces.

boputnam
06-24-2004, 07:17 PM
OK, sports fans....

I've been very distracted, of late (and as expected... ;) ) with gigging and such, and have really fallen' off the JBL Blue wagon. So, apologies where needed.

There's tin's off tomorrow to HansPeter and dougzilla.

Who have I missed, and are there others that received the early, flawed batches and need a fix, or simply need a dose? :hmm:

Please let me know, gratis.

Hofmannhp
07-04-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
OK, sports fans....
.....There's tin's off tomorrow to HansPeter and dougzilla.
......

thanks again Bo......color's here. (pls look for your PM)

With Bo's blue, I made a test on a part of wood and compared this with the baffles I painted in march with another blue. My blue is far away from Bo's blue. Now they will get the right one.

BTW: and this maybe very interesting for all European JBLers.....I matched Bo's blue with the RAL-Standard color sheets......and wow...the color with the no. RAL 5001 matches to 99% with Bo's blue. I compared it under very differnt lights from daylight to 3200°K and it's ok.

HP

Figge
07-05-2004, 08:00 AM
i will get a can from u bo....once i get hold of a pair of 43xx:s that needs new paint!...

hmm. too bad my banged up 4311:s dont use that bafflepaint...

Robh3606
07-21-2004, 07:22 PM
And another happy recipient from the master at the paint counter.

Thanks Bo

Rob :dancin:

Mr. Widget
03-04-2005, 03:19 PM
Hey Bo,

You need to send Northridge some of your JBL Blue paint... it looks like they lost the formula. :applaud:

Widget

Earl K
03-04-2005, 03:33 PM
Hmmmm, do you figure that's some sort of color correction issue - or - :blink:

that JBL has changed to a darker blue ? :D

Hofmannhp
03-04-2005, 05:07 PM
Hmmmm, do you figure that's some sort of color correction issue - or - :blink:

that JBL has changed to a darker blue ? :D

Hi Earl,

JBL can change whatever they want...........for me the "real" blue is the 43xx blue:D

HP

PS: you may also call it "Bo" blue

Mr. Widget
03-04-2005, 05:09 PM
Here, here... I second the motion! Bo's Blue it shall be!!!!


Widget

John
03-04-2005, 05:17 PM
Maybe JBL did market research and determined the asian consumer prefers this shade of bluehttp://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Ian Mackenzie
05-07-2005, 03:47 PM
thanks for your work Bo....:thmbsup:

here's my small participation in this job. the translation for all

- aussies
- red leafs
- krauts (like me)
- etc.

will try it soon with national available colors.

HP

Has anyone made up a batch using the metric proportions in post 36?
I tried the other day...one problem is the can's are 1 litre for the base and it over fills the can. But some how I am skeptical about that blue proportion.

Ian