WinISD help

[mrmuse]

I'm trying to enter values in WinISD and I keep getting floating point errors, and this and that windows errors.

Can someone run these and post the results back. It's for a 21 inch woofer that I'm checking into....Thanks.....

FS 36.7995 Hz
ZMAX 46.6525 Ω
R0 16.9610 Hz
F0 32.3893 Hz
F1 41.5209 Hz
FMIN 98.5489 Hz
QMS 11.0846
QES 1.6883
QTS 1.4651
LE 1.6357mH @ 1 kHz
XLE 14.5032 impedance @ 1 kHz
PLR 45.1240 phase @ 1 kHz
VAS 434.1689 l @ 15.3325 cu. ft

[Baron030]

Hi MrMuse
There must be a bug in the WinISD program that will prevent you from entering values for new drivers and then saving the results. As a work around, I have opened an existing driver’s data file, using the window’s Notepad application. And then I changed the values to match that of a new driver. After editing the file, just make sure to save the file with a ".wdr" extension and not default of ".txt". Otherwise, the WinISD application will not recognize the file as driver data file. It will take a little tinkering to get all of the driver’s values entered correctly. But, this Notepad work around will get the job done.

Baron030

[grumpy]

what version are you using? (v.50a7)

Effective diameter (Dd) and Re were all I had to guess at to get a valid T/S set, starting from scratch. (Entered Qes Qms Fs fLe Dd Le and Re only... everything else was auto-calcuated)

(guessed 20" and 11ohms)

Also guessing this is not re a Lansing Product, but a generic DIY question (e.g., General Audio Discussion)

-grumpy

[mrmuse]

Here are captures of the errors. I uninstalled, reldownloaded and reinstalled and it does the same thing....

[grumpy]

I just went straight to the editor (button that looks like a speaker)...
maybe try it that way, save the new driver you created, -then- open a new project.
:dont-know

-grumpy

[mrmuse]

Hey Grumpy and Baron,

I can create and save the file. It's not til I open that file that all these errors start popping up...

mrmuse

[johnaec]

"Floating point" and "access violation" errors sound more like computer errors rather than software errors. Can you try it on a different computer?

John

[mrmuse]

Been there done that. I build those headaches for a living. Tried one other 2.0ghz with XP Pro, and one 1 ghz with Win 98 and did the same thing.

Even uninstalled, re-downloaded the program and reinstalled it.

Still same problem. I'm wondering if another program or my anti virus might be affecting it.

Will install it on another system with fresh XP Pro on it later....

Did anyone else see this speaker I'm trying to figure out?? If not here is the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7420918874&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[grumpy]

plugged in 6ohms Re instead. Not sure what you're expecting to do with them.
I'd expect they'd be impressive looking, if not sounding. I wasn't able to fit a
cabinet type to them very easily (peaky and limited output as a sub)... unless
I did something =really= wrong. Hope you get WinISD working. -grumpy

[Zilch]

BB6P says it wants 75 cuft. closed box for F3 = 30 Hz and Qtc = 1.08.

Think infinite baffle with those parameters.

BB6P chokes on them too; I can't get Qtc below 1.0.

That's why you're getting those errors, looks like....

[mrmuse]

This all started as a sub enclosure project using cabs I already had. This is the link to the cabs here in the forum.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10987

Can this 21 inch function in this cabinet?

Internally 24x28x31 is a lot of volume to fill, and I emailed the lister of the 21's about getting a "pair" of them, and his reply with a phone number just said "yes, call me, let's deal".

It's not that I'm cheap or seeking sympathy, but on a limited budget if these could compliment my 4628's why not give them a whack?

I've seen some of these 21's and 24's, but never with any "specs" with them. I remember back in the late 60's or early 70's we were using 2 12 jensens and a 30 inch EV speaker running off a huge 25 watt tube RCA public address amp, and ever since then I wondered what the "next step" would be. In fact I have a friend that still owns one of the 30 inch..

I've got the cabs, but I'd hate to screw them up and not ever give the 21 a decent chance at sounding good. And D*** they are cool looking...

mrmuse

PS. I've emailed the lister and asked for "brand name" and "more specs" so I guess I'm kind of stuck til then...And again everyone, thanks for all the help.......

[Robh3606]

I tried running it with the numbers given and it didn't make any sense. Getting crazy response curves and huge voulmes. It looks like the program is picking up that the numbers are a bit odd. I am useing the original version of WinIsd not the Pro version. In the original you can plug the numbers right in.

Rob:)

[Hoerninger]

QTS 1.4651
It's simply too high. Useless for horns, not for sealed enclosures or bassreflex to my knowledge..
Open baffle seems to be the only way. (XMAX?)
The program should mention "not suitable", that would be the right interpretation for that mistake.
I don't know the program, you can try it with QTS=0,3 and see what happens.

[mrmuse]

Still nothing from the lister, so I guess it's just wait and see.

Thanks everyone for trying..

mrmuse

[grumpy]

For grins I modelled one in an 11ft3 box, set the port for 30-ish Hz, a 3db-bump-2nd-order-high-pass at 30Hz, and a 24dB/oct low pass at 40Hz... Almost looks OK except for group delay (and likely xmax and thermal problems). Given the cost of those electronics and the necessary compromises in the build of drivers at this cost level (if the T/S parameters given are even correct), my personal feeling is you'd get much better (and controllable) sound quality with used/reconed 2241's or something of that ilk in your cabinets. You might get more attention (big/boomy/resonant) with these, however, if that is the goal.

jump around. :D

-grumpy

[mrmuse]

Hey Grumpy,

That is exactly what I don't want. I want nice tight controlled bass.

We are already using a set of Peavey DTH dual 18's and they are weak, muddy, and when you can hear them it's due to boominess.

Did you check out the link?

mrmuse

[Zilch]

Again, they don't want boxes.

They want to be mounted in the wall, with the backs open to the garage. :p

[Find out the manufacturer's recommended enclosure....]

[grumpy]

Yeah... I checked out the link. To be nice, I'll just say I'm not their intended audience. -grumpy

What doesn't make sense? They appear to be priced appropriately for what they are.

Thinking I've already said too much...

[mrmuse]

I didn't think you would be their targeted audience, I was hoping you could make more sense out of it.....

Still haven't heard from the seller, maybe I won't as it is the weekend.

mrmuse

[Earl K]

That is exactly what I don't want. I want nice tight controlled bass.

- ( IME ) , if you actually want "tight controlled bass", then look to use a woofer that has a total "Q" ( Qts ) that is less than .30 .
- I mentioned "actually want" because there are those who think the 2213 / 123A-1 can deliver the bass goods with its "highish" Qtc ( I happen to disagree but then I'm in SR and we generally dismiss all woofers with such high Qtc figures ).
- Low Qtc numbers can be directly translated into playback resolution by those with enough experience to read the "ts / tea-leaves" .

- The ts parameters you quoted above ( they're obviously skewed ) , indicate that the woofer in question is best left on this sellers shelf . Forget about them and save your dollars for JBLs or Altecs.

- Lansing woofers ( from both JBL & Altec ) are noted for their huge motors ( large magnets with lots of voice coil in the gap equaling high BL figures ) which invariably helps translate into the lower Qtc numbers.
- Again, IME, this directly leads to better playback resolution ( as opposed to bass "boom" ).



:)

[mrmuse]

Grumpy....You said it all in one phrase...priced appropriately.

As I said, I am on a budget, I have E145's, 2225's and am pairing up the K151 so in order to "save my soul" I think I'll stick with JBL....

I guess it was more curiosity about the 21 in and cabinet size that clouded my senses....

It's just that I can't afford the 2241's I really wanted.....

mrmuse

[yggdrasil]

If you look in the help-file under "Entering new driver data" you will find the following:



The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):
1. Enter Mms and Cms
This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.
2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re
Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ (mk:@MSITStore:C:\PROGRA~1\LINEAR~1\WINISD~1\winis d.chm::/faq/faq.html).
3. Enter Rms or Qms.
Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.
4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.
If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.
5. Enter number of voicecoils.
This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.
6. Correct Znom, if necessary.


I tried entering new driver data, and after failing severely I looked up this section in the help-file. Using this method I have been able to add drivers without problems.

The parameters you stated in post 1 is not complete according to these needs, so my guess is that you will have to obtain these data one way or the other.

Good luck.

[mrmuse]

After all your suggestions and believe it or not updating Media Player as I was getting dll errors, I got it to work.

Now my problem is I don't understand what I'm reading. That's on the agenda for tonight. Read, read, read....

Thanks again everyone.....

mrmuse