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Monte
05-05-2003, 01:14 AM
Can anyone suggest any upgrade projects for the 4430's? I'm really open to any good-sounding ideas.

My thoughts:
1) Address high frequency rolloff by either:
different horn or add a supertweeter + crossover
2) Use an active external crossover in place of the internal. Thus biamp or triamp.
3) Could it benefit from anything structural? Bracing?
Any suggestions at all if you know what would make it sound better.

Thanks!
Monte

Ian Mackenzie
05-05-2003, 02:39 AM
Monte,

I can't comment on the box as I have not owned one but I currently use the 2344a with the JBL network as used in the 4430.

I would say the design is as it stands is as good a 2 way as you can get using a horn.

If you use Hovland caps in the crossover to upgrade it will improve the top end as will using a Class A amp in bi amp mode.

Beyond the above the next step is to make it a 3 way and add a JBL 2123 mid cone or a PHL mid cone, I refer to this as the 2235 is not as accurate in the 300 - 1000 hz area.

Ian

Robh3606
05-05-2003, 10:36 AM
I have a set-up very similar to Ians with the 2122 and a 2416 on the 2344 horn. I am quad amping my set-up and am going to use the 4435 passive comp on the 2344. What I am planning is changing the crossover to a Charge Coupled network as an upgrade. Don't know what to expect sonically but we will see. I really don't miss the highs above the 2344 but I will eventually drop some slots on top or my mains and center to see if it does make a diference after I get the new crossovers squared away. Scuttle butt says you should give biamping a try just need to get the correct cards for one of the JBL actives 5234/5235. What don't you like about them???

4313B
05-05-2003, 12:55 PM
"Can anyone suggest any upgrade projects for the 4430's? I'm really open to any good-sounding ideas.

My thoughts:
1) Address high frequency rolloff by either:
different horn or add a supertweeter + crossover
2) Use an active external crossover in place of the internal. Thus biamp or triamp.
3) Could it benefit from anything structural? Bracing?

Any suggestions at all if you know what would make it sound better."

I've found that the 4430 sounds best submerged in 20 feet of murky lake water.

Dood! They're junk! Why throw good money after bad? Cut your losses and go buy a decent pair of loudspeakers. Why spend time and money hacking up a pair of 4430's in the vain attempt to make them sound listenable? I'll buy the woofer clamps off you for $20, that pretty much sums up the list of worthwhile parts in a 4430.

Norbert
05-05-2003, 02:23 PM
Giskard is absolutely right!
The 4430s are the worst speakers I ever came across.
I already have an eye on these woofer clamps too ...
BTW there is a pair right now on Ebay/Germany (#3324697807), the clamps look terrific!

4313B
05-05-2003, 02:34 PM
:p

Ian Mackenzie
05-05-2003, 07:01 PM
Hmm,

I have not heard the 4430 for years but I know people in the pro broadcast area have a mixed attitude to them if they have previously used the 4411/4412 or the older 43xx monitors.

I imagine they don't come within a bulls roar of the 4311 or 4313's for midrange clarityand high frequency detail, even if they do not go as loud.

I think this is the point really, you get used to what you have and adapt after a while, but when you hear something else the differences are obvious and so is the desire to improve, hence my shift back to the 43xx configuration after hear big brothers 4343's...I mean WOW.

Depending on what Monte wants to do he still has a pair of 2235's and 2426 drivers which as excellent componts and a great foundation for a JBL project. With a nice mid cone and a set of slots you can really go places.


Ian

Monte
05-05-2003, 07:09 PM
Giskard, Norbert,

So, what would you consider to be a decent set of speakers? --depends on the woofer clamps? --uh, huh--

jblwolf
05-05-2003, 07:44 PM
I'll offer $21 if their the old style clamps!!!-GOD love the old stuff!!:p

Monte
05-05-2003, 09:45 PM
I'm not tired of them in the sense that they have gone stale from long use. The truth is that I just bought them. I didn't get a chance to hear them first, although it's often the case that even if you do hear monitors, there are so many things you are hearing differently from ones own setup--it may be hard to single out the monitors.

Since I didn't pay the price for great speakers, I shouldn't expect great speakers. I had all these rationalizations for what I might do in case I were disappointed.

When I got them home, I ran this test. I did a direct AB with my B&W DM 640's, which are the only decent speakers that I've ever owned (and for a bunch of years, you see, so I'm very used to their sound). They are "95%" of B&W 802, series III, Matrix. I believe that that is the last series before Nautilus. They would be the same as 802's (same tweeters and mid) but for slightly smaller woofer and a bit different box (but not much different). The crossovers have been aftermarket improved. Audio by Van Alstine, who sold me the 640's, liked them better than the 802's. In the A/B comparison with the JBL 4430's, it was interesting how the two different speakers did not sound drastically different. I have heard at one time two speakers that were adjacent different models of the same brand that sounded more dissimilar. Back to the A/B, the 4430 was more robust and had bigger bass, sometimes tighter, but not always. In every other respect, I liked the B&W. It seemed to be cleaner, especially through the midrange and perceptively more extended. The 4430's do seem to have some image to them but still a bit boxy and just not as clean and detailed as I would like.

I probably bought the 4430 naively, although the little guy with horns kept whispering, "well, if you don't like them, you can always sell them." Now I'm not so sure that I will enjoy the bother. In part, I just wanted to hear them in my room with my system, just to be sure. I also seemed to naively have in the back of my head that if there weren't something great, it might be fixable with different (......fill in blank)---except with the assumption that it would be the same box. I may be way off about the box.

My primary use for them will be classical music as I am a professional classical musician. I probably have not listened to nearly as much audio as anyone reading this. Musicians spend so much time with live music, (you might be surprised how little many professional musicians listen to audio) that it's hard to know what to expect from playback systems and source materials. It's also hard to isolate the source of a characteristic and to use the language meaningfully.

Anyway, after a long hiatus of listening seldomly, I'm back into audio, trying to put together recording and playback systems that are as accurate as I can get them.

No, I have not heard the 4435's. I looked at the specs. The physical dimensions kicked off my "WAF" alert--not spouse friendly, I figured. The largest dimension of our room is 17 feet, so.......

Anyway, I'll need to get more acclimated to some of the parts numbers, as I'm new to JBL.

Where does one find plans for DIY JBL monitors??

Thanks for the feedback!
Monte

Ian Mackenzie
05-05-2003, 10:32 PM
Monte,

I know where you are comming from, I did the same thing a few years back with a pair of Altec 515Bs and a JBL Smith horn.

The lows were great and upper mids so natural, but low/mids sucked and there was no sparkle in the tops.

The Altecs had the dymanics and slam but were not as "HIFI" as my trusted RCF 6010 (poor mans 4412).

The answer is persistance, and I would not give up on your acquisition yet.

I added a set of JBL 077 slots, this was a quantum leap, I had an Altec 3 way 4333 monitor, and then later added 8 inch Audax mid cone to make it a low cost 4 way.

The result was a very accurate system, even to a cassical buff.
Finally I traded up to the 18 inch JBL 2245 woofers

Essentially I just added things on to start with, even the small box for the mid cone I sat on top of the main box.

This way you can entertain gradual change with improvement and learn as you go.

There are plenty of capable and talented members on this forum who can assist you with design , trade parts and provide helpful hints as needed.

As a muso you will be rewarded with the fruits of your labour, a number of us have treaded this path before you.

My initial thought is to look at the midrange 1st, but tell us about the rest of you system. Where are you located?

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
05-05-2003, 10:35 PM
This was the next phase with a lot of support from friends.

Ian

Robh3606
05-05-2003, 10:35 PM
"Where does one find plans for DIY JBL monitors??"

We don't need no stinking plans!!!!!

Just fooling but asside from the box tunnings available on the Pro Site and some old DIY pamphlets from when they sold components for home builders there is not too much. Gold Sound used to have some kits and Pi Speakers also have some. For the clasic monitor's you are on your own. You would be surprised how much information is available in the library in the brochures. You get cabinet dimensions, internal volumes, even box tunnings on some systems. With just an hour here or there and the right questions you can get all you need on most systems. You also have the people on the site who will try to help you if you post here.

I think Giskard is right you should leave the boxes alone. Try building your own based on one of the "classics" like the 4343 as an example. You can "clone" the crossovers as the schematics are available, or try to buy used of bi/triamp with actives. It really depends on what you are looking for and the time you have to play with the stuff. Can you do your own cabinets?? If you get the box volume for the woofer tunned up right and know what the subenclosure volume is for the 10" mid as an example you can figure the rest out and just go for it. It's fun!


Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-05-2003, 10:47 PM
Finally, a well engineered 3 way,

The bi radial JBL 2344 horn performs very well when supported by a suitable midrange driver.

This does not mean to say the 15 inch woofer in the 4430 is crap, its just that everthing gets better when you optimise your drivers over their best working range.

There are plenty of other fine examples of diy monitors our members have made! Just ask

Ian

Monte
05-06-2003, 12:19 AM
Man, you guys must live on this site!! Talk about fast responses. And thanks, Ian, for the pics.

I live in Indianapolis. Can't hardly hear my sound system over the roar of the engines. No, wait, crank it up!…

Yep, I should be able to manage enclosures. It will be my first time' round.

So, you're thinking, keep the driver and horn.

Keep the crossover (maybe). Anyway, if so,get the card 5234 or 5235 or 52-5130 and biamp (minimum).

The 15" 2235 is o.k., although 18" would be nicer.

Anyway, get a 2121H midrange. (I did find the jblpro.com tent sale).

Since I'm into extended range, get the 2405 UHF for the high, tinkly stuff.

So, Plan A, salvage or buy the above stuff, scheme, calculate and build appropriate cabinet which would be something like a 4343B.

So, you're thinking that the components I have are worthwhile enough NOT to go with the alternate plan, infamous Plan B.

Plan B. Do not take apart the 4430. Sell it when the smoke clears. In the meantime, buy up all the components for a 4343B. Attempt to build the 4343B by copying or faking it. Any rational thinking in that? It just comes down to, if it makes sense to cannibalize the 4430.

Yeah, I just crunched a few numbers. The 4430 is worth more in its original form than as a partial donor to make a 4343B wanna be. There are people selling (or trying to sell) 4430's for closer to $2,000 than $1,000. That's really steep.

What I'm using in audio components. Current amp is a hybrid ("FET Valve"), Audio by Van Alstine (avahifi.com). Eventually, I'll be going with his omega star amps and preamp (haven't bought yet) with the JBL's. I'm hoping to at least bi-amp.

Oh yeah.
What's the number for the horn for the 2420 driver? Is there anything else (I know about the 2308 lense) about the horn such as a throat or something? Probably all one piece.

Is there only one 2405 UHF per monitor box? I see that it has it's one horn. Number for that? Thanks!

Later,
Monte

Ian Mackenzie
05-06-2003, 05:40 AM
Yeah,

Sounds like we got a live one....

Sorta information overload sometimes Monte, it doesn't have to be done by tomorrow morning you know...just joking.Muhuuhuh

Okay, so you wanna build a better mouse trap. Sounds like you are a perfectionist. If you plan to do some recordings the 4343 will knock you over.

With the 4430, just to be sure I would play with the high frequency level control on the adjust the HF extension, the 15 inch woofer may be masking the highs also.

It would appear the 4430's have some value in the market place, so thats you call. So you are running with plan B pending how quickly you can sell the 4430's. Are there monetary contraints???

With some assistance there is no faking a 4343 to make it, several members have this model, get the slide rule and tape measures ready boys!! Somewhere I have a cross sectional drawing of the 4343 in a book by John Eargle, I scan it for you.

By the way 4343s some times come up on Ebay and there was a 4345 (18 inch woofers) in the forum classifieds in mint (to die for) condition, Iwould see if this is still for sale (or sold).

As a project the procurement of the parts for the 4343B is the first step, and this may take some time depending on availability as some of these parts are obsolete JBL lines. So you could use the woofer and the horn driver until you sell the 4430's.

Check out this link http://www.jblproservice.com/support_info.htm
There you will find details of the 4343 parts and the crossover network, and http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm for the pdf on the 4343B, the horn is the 2307, there is only one 2405 per box.

If you want to move reasonably quickly, the 2235 and 2426 with the 2344 on hand will give you a leg in on the project, the baffle for the mid and highs on the 4343's is removeable, so you can make and bake your system as parts come your way.

Checkout these for parts:
http://www.jamminjersey.com/speakers.htm, and Vintage audio sales, http://www.vintageaudiosales.com/, there is also the tent sale at JBL, there are some 2123's still there but they are 16 ohms although this probably does not matter, you can still order 2123s new from JBL as I understand it.

That is probably enough for now, Just to make you drool a bit....here they are

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
05-06-2003, 05:54 AM
Here is the drawing, sorry about the quality, Ah just for training purposes (Copyright issues.)

MikeM
05-06-2003, 07:47 AM
well I have the big brother 4435. I have yet to really find an electronic crossover that does these speakers well. Always get a hump or somesort of irregularity in the crossover range on 6/12/18 db curves. Sometimes here keeping them out of line is better as far as better transparency in the front end. Anyway 4435 owners try this trick, On the 4435 the second 15 is brought in at 100hz or so at a slowww rolloff and then is attenuated about 6 bd. i have a spooky little switch on the crossover that i can bypass the resistors on the 100 hz sub increasing the lowend. Not for purist sound but only for the live stuff. Works well

MikeM
05-06-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Spooky little switches can be fun :p

Have you already tried the 5234A/5235 with the 4430/4435 cards?

Yes I have. Had the cards custom done with both types 12 and 18 db.Also tryed Mx-4, vfx-2a, sumo delilah,Marchand board type.
Right now im single amping with quite good results. Maybe will try again later!

MikeM
05-06-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Wow, I don't see Sumo Delilah's around at all. Do you still have one? Do you have the Samson too?

Interesting that you should have trouble with the 5234A/5235 and the 4435 because technically it shouldn't work right out of the box and you should end up with a bump (has to be EQ'd out). The card was designed for the 4430 and the 2234H is sufficiently "peaky" at 1 kHz to cause a problem when using the 4430 card in the 5234A/5235. In other words, JBL should have come out with a 4435 card and they didn't. If you used a 5234A you should also install bypass caps like JBL did in the 5235.
I wouldnt go as far as saying i was having trouble with it its a nice unit. I used to drive myself nuts with adjusting reajusting so i said the heck with it and went single amp. think I noticed was a Blurr in imaging ect. I used the 5233/4 with my 4350's before mono block lowend and audioresearch tube highend with staggering results. resolution was fantastic. Wish i had more room here. Thanks for the info!

Monte
05-06-2003, 01:49 PM
"Sounds like we got a live one…" … you funny guy …

Seriously, I do appreciate the enthusiasm and willingness by you and everyone else in this group.

Now I've slept on it. The 4343b would deliver a really big upgrade in refinement over the 4430. I certainly don't need bigger, badder, lower or louder. Refinement and accuracy is the key.

Why go all the way to the 4343b? Well, if I'm going to need to build a new box, anyway, might as well. Also, the 4430's will keep value intact. The 4343 drivers—not cheap—but certainly not THAT expensive when you consider what you're getting. I can afford to get them while holding the 4430. Buying someone's factory 4343's, though, just might be too pricey. There aren't many choices there. Also, when I bought the 4430, I was lucky that the location was a one-day driveable distance--probably not so lucky with harder-to-find 4343's.

Upon reflection, I think that I can conceptualize why the 4430's, as 2-ways, sound the way that they do. It is interesting that JBL chose to stick with that compromise.

I don't regret buying the 4430's, even if I don't keep them in the long run. I need something good sounding now. They can serve as a semi-model for the 4343... helpful as something very real and very JBL, as you pointed out.

Thanks, Ian for the technical drawing accurate to scale and could take measurements off of (yeah, I can handle stuff like that). Thanks also for the photo and for the references (which I have started checking out).

I can do this. It will work (self pep-talk).

Later,
Monte

Ian Mackenzie
05-06-2003, 03:19 PM
Thats cool Dude, see you in JBL Heaven.


Refer to the 4343B pdf for all the measurements,

Have fun

Ian

Jakob
05-06-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Monte,


I added a set of JBL 077 slots, this was a quantum leap, I had an Altec 3 way 4333 monitor, and then later added 8 inch Audax mid cone to make it a low cost 4 way.

Ian

What kind of Audax 8"-drivers are You using? And in what range?

-Jakob

Monte
05-06-2003, 07:13 PM
I had a thought or question. It questions the thought of *why start over with an entire new box*?

Is the 4430 box suitable (in the highest quality sense) for the LF cone (the 2235H that comes with) in use from 300 Hz and below?

But what about this? Leave the 4430 box alone and set another box on top. The new box would, I hope, properly house a 2121H midrange cone and a 2405H diffraction slot tweeter, according to correct volume engineering. Sort out the crossovers. Thus we have a 4 way system where each driver is operating in its best Hz environment.

Is there something inherently flawed with the 4430 box that could NOT be fixed with this plan?

Thank you for your thoughts.
Monte

Robh3606
05-06-2003, 08:40 PM
Hello Monte

"But what about this? Leave the 4430 box alone and set another box on top. The new box would, I hope, properly house a 2121H midrange cone and a 2405H diffraction slot tweeter, according to correct volume engineering. Sort out the crossovers. Thus we have a 4 way system where each driver is operating in its best Hz environment."

Might work just have to work out the spacing between the midrange and woofer. Looks like you have some room between them with the 4343. You also may be able to make a 2122/2123 module to mount inside where the 2344 is now. It does not take to many cubic inches to load them I think 1/4 ft. Would effect your box tunning some but it might work if the spacing does not work out right.


Rob:)

Monte
05-07-2003, 01:09 AM
Thanks, Rob

0.4 – 0.5 ft3 was specified for the 2121/2123. Just checked. 0.4 is what the enclosure document specifies. 0.5 is what the 4343 actually has.

And yep, it could certainly be installed there. Remains to be seen how the decrease in volume would affect the bass. The way it is now, the 4430 as is, has the same internal volume as the internal FREE volume of the 4343b with it's own 2121 sub-enclosure (that is subtracting off the 0.5 ft3 sub-enclosure). However, making the similar change to the 4430--installing a 2121 sub-enclosure-- would decrease the internal volume by about 10%. How much does that eliminate bass response?

Or if I put the 2121 on top, it remains to be seen (I mean heard) if it is too far separated. Hmmm.

***Wait---I think I've got it!***

Take out the 2425H/2344. Cover the hole with a board that seals really well. Turn the 4430 upside down. The trestle (attached stand) is now on top. Remove the trestle. Make a grill that covers the entire 4430 (and I wanted to do that anyway). For that matter, make a matching grill that covers the new second box that sits on top and contains the 2425H/2344 which is along side a 2121H MF cone in it's own 0.5 ft3 sub-enclosure and also somewhere the 2405H UHF diffraction slot tweeter & crossovers. It needs no port, I guess.

The 2121 MF cone is close to the 15" woofer. The size of the woofer enclosure is a correct 5 ft3. The 2344 is alongside the 2121 so that it does not sit too high (the upper box would probably be a little wider). Anyway, that would put the 2344 about 3 1/2 ft. high, which is probably fine. Voila. The 4430-pseudo-4343. "The poor man's 4343."

Hey, maybe I can use that vacated hole to put in some sort of passive radiator. Heh-heh.

Something for me to think about!!

Later, Monte

Robh3606
05-07-2003, 06:05 AM
Hello Monte

That might work! Half the fun is figuring it out! Looks like you got a handle on things send some pictures when you can. I would like to see how it eventually works out.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-09-2003, 04:36 AM
Guys,

The Audax HT 210 is an 8 inch high sensitivity @ 98 dba paper cone mid which requires about the same rear loading as the jbl 2121/2123.

The bandwidth is 200 - 5k and smooth as a babies bottom..well you know what I mean. It is a a nice low cost start up if to running a 3/4 way. I ran them from 300 - 1250 hz.

Ps These driver are no longer in use as I finally snared a pair of JBL 2122 10 inch mids.

I have not decided to sell them yet but if any of you dare take the leap of sonic excellence to a precision 3/4 way send me a pm.

The 2344's are also in the same category as I am going pure 4345. PM's accepted for any ideas or questions on roll your own JBL monitors.

The stacked HiFi tower was what I had in mind at the start of the thread and is a good way to experiement, my only thought is to try and make sure the horns/slot are about ear height in the listening possy. That seems to be important.

At least you can play with the combinations and see/hear the differences. If you like it, you can enjoy it while you are crafting your composite cabinet.

Ultimately, the best accuracy is be the result of pure piston range over the entire range which is where the 4343 was a winner.

HiFI World Mag once described the 4343 as the B&W 802 answer for Jazz , Blues and R & R, but at worthwhile levels...I tend to agree.

For the would be diy 4343 fans here is my 1st effort 20 years on, and they still hold own against anything else and were used here to flatten a 21st birthday crowd with 1400 watts of bi amped power. (Actually my brother in law's 21st at a footy club in 1982!)
They have since also seen service in live production and the odd Ballet.

We got tired of it after a while with the boxes weighing 400 Ibs each..bursting our balls I mean.

Ian

Tom Loizeaux
05-13-2003, 10:51 AM
Monte,
After my experiences with Altec and more recently JBL pro monitors, I think you would be very happy with a system driven by JBL pro componants. I fell in to my current mode of rebuilding and rehabbing JBL studio monitors without making this my plan. I've enjoyed this and have learned a lot. But, if I wanted to just jump to a very satisfying speaker system without the long road of work and experimentation, I would buy the GS Kit 11 from Gold Sound. They sell this as a kit of JBL componants, or you can order these with their cabinets as well. I think building the cabinets from their plans (included with the kit of componants) would be the way I would go - only because find pleasure in projects like this. Their GS 11 consists of a pair of JBL 2235H woofers, 2118H 8" mids, 2404H "baby cheek" tweeters, as well a their 3-way passive crossovers. These are some of JBL's best drivers and would work very well together to give you a wonderful sonic presentation.
I don't have any conection to this company, nor have I tried any of their systems, but from my experience with many of JBL's speakers and monitors, I'm sure these would satisfy many JBL fans. Their web address is www.goldsound.net

Good luck and keep us posted.

P.S. Anybody out there tried these?

Tom

MikeM
05-13-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by MikeM
I wouldnt go as far as saying i was having trouble with it its a nice unit. I used to drive myself nuts with adjusting reajusting so i said the heck with it and went single amp. think I noticed was a Blurr in imaging ect. I used the 5233/4 with my 4350's before mono block lowend and audioresearch tube highend with staggering results. resolution was fantastic. Wish i had more room here. Thanks for the info!
Keep in mind if one wants to "upgrade" the 4430 with a midrange that the midrange used will have to be part of the time alignment . That means the voice coils all must line up togther. Bad news midrange will be behind the baffel board. unless of course you time align with some eq divice in triamp mode:)

Robh3606
05-13-2003, 07:00 PM
Hello Mike

This should probably be another thread but why care about time alignment. You are talking a couple of inches. Even the 4331 with it's long horn meets the not audible criteira which means all the 43XX series should be good too. This is based on the numbers published in the AES reprint about the developement of the 44XX series monitors. The Urei easily beats both but all 3 are well under the curve.

Rob:)

Monte
05-13-2003, 09:20 PM
Tom,

Thanks for the tip on the Gold Sound 11's. They look great! ...and I salivated even more with the 14's!!

Gold Sound Speaker Kits

Kit 14 18" 4-Way System

Freq Response: 25-21kHz+/-3dB
Power Range: 600 WRMS 8 ohm
Efficiency: 95dB
Max. Volume: 120dB
Crossover: 80, 1200 & 5000Hz
Controls: midbass, midhorn, & tweeter level
Dispersion: 100 deg to 20kHz
Distortion: < 1% 3rd harmonic at 116 dB
Woofer: JBL 18" 2245H; 86 oz mag
Midbass: JBL 12" 2206H, 80 oz magnet
Midhorn: 2418H driver, biradial horn
Tweeter: JBL 2404H, biradial horn
Cabinet: 12 cf, 46x29x19"-OR-
Satellite: 0.9 cf, 19x12x10" &
Subwoofer: 12 cf, 46x29x19" (2 req'd)


$2498/pr.
(cabinets optional)

Kits Include Speakers, Crossovers, and Plans.
Cabinets are extra.

http://www.goldsound.net/kit14.htm

Ian Mackenzie
05-14-2003, 03:27 AM
I reaslise this is off topic but,

The time alignment is a funny business, it depends on how much and what frequency. The AES curves suggest 2 khz is the most sensitive area in absolute terms the the ear.

In measurements I find the vertical displacement of drivers has more effect on the amplitude plot of the frequency response around the crossover point, but this can be tweeked out by adjusting Xover values if need be.

The Xover in the 4430/4435 was designed by an Aust scientist..yippy!! It was according to an AES paper I have buried away an All Phase network where the high and low pass are connected in Phase. The values of the Cap/inductors are arranged so as to have neither a peak or null at the xover, yet create a rolloff slope.

This style of network appears very sensitive to driver displacement as even a small change of an inch effects the response noticably at the Xover point. I assume this is due the the phase relationships of the high/low pass aspects of the network which are optimised for flat response. This type of Xover is reputed to have minimal group delay.

Ian

4313B
05-14-2003, 08:07 AM
Ron Gold is a good guy. I've known him since he first started out and I think several people on this forum have had excellent dealings with him. Perhaps you should sell those pesky little 4430's intead of hacking them up and buy something from Ron. He puts significant R&D into his designs and I can pretty much guarantee anything he has would surpass any hack job you could visit on a pair of 4430's.

mikebake
02-07-2005, 04:31 PM
Monte, what did you end up doing?


Thanks, Rob

0.4 – 0.5 ft3 was specified for the 2121/2123. Just checked. 0.4 is what the enclosure document specifies. 0.5 is what the 4343 actually has.

And yep, it could certainly be installed there. Remains to be seen how the decrease in volume would affect the bass. The way it is now, the 4430 as is, has the same internal volume as the internal FREE volume of the 4343b with it's own 2121 sub-enclosure (that is subtracting off the 0.5 ft3 sub-enclosure). However, making the similar change to the 4430--installing a 2121 sub-enclosure-- would decrease the internal volume by about 10%. How much does that eliminate bass response?

Or if I put the 2121 on top, it remains to be seen (I mean heard) if it is too far separated. Hmmm.

***Wait---I think I've got it!***

Take out the 2425H/2344. Cover the hole with a board that seals really well. Turn the 4430 upside down. The trestle (attached stand) is now on top. Remove the trestle. Make a grill that covers the entire 4430 (and I wanted to do that anyway). For that matter, make a matching grill that covers the new second box that sits on top and contains the 2425H/2344 which is along side a 2121H MF cone in it's own 0.5 ft3 sub-enclosure and also somewhere the 2405H UHF diffraction slot tweeter & crossovers. It needs no port, I guess.

The 2121 MF cone is close to the 15" woofer. The size of the woofer enclosure is a correct 5 ft3. The 2344 is alongside the 2121 so that it does not sit too high (the upper box would probably be a little wider). Anyway, that would put the 2344 about 3 1/2 ft. high, which is probably fine. Voila. The 4430-pseudo-4343. "The poor man's 4343."

Hey, maybe I can use that vacated hole to put in some sort of passive radiator. Heh-heh.

Something for me to think about!!

Later, Monte

Monte
02-09-2005, 03:57 PM
Mikebake,

Thanks for asking. It's been a long time, and I have not gotten as far as I would like--things still unfinished. But I have gained more respect for and commitment to the 4430's.

In the meantime I had tried out another speaker that I had bought new. It had sounded great--with wonderful detail and accuracy--in the factory listening room (small company). But in my own home, I tried for a year but failed to get the same quality sound that I had heard. It was overly "analytical" and not as natural and warm as the 4430 turned out AFTER returning to it. In the meantime I had pretty much written off and ignored the JBL's during the time with the other speakers.

Returning to the 4430's, I moved all the speakers to another wall (under a slanted ceiling--more reflective--shaped somewhat like a band shell) for redecorating reasons. I hooked them up to a nice class A amp. It was a real ear-opener. In that setting, the newer, "analytical" system still seemed over-bearing, even more so, while the wall and ceiling worked with the JBL's plus the Class A electronics brought out the 4430's natural warmth. I really like the dynamic, effortless sound, more like live music.

Later, reconing the 2235's definitely helped. Getting better all the time.
Somewhere on this forum I had read about replacing the diaphragms. I'm sure the 2426's would benefit from that but have not done that quite yet.

Other future plans include going with a an active crossover. I've had my eye on Marchand electronics. And, I still want to add a midrange driver. If I can finish the whole project before 2005 is up, I would consider that a big success--for me!

I'll update again back to Lansing Heritage when it's all done.

Again, I appreciate your asking.

Monte

mikebake
02-09-2005, 08:52 PM
"Thanks for asking. It's been a long time, and I have not gotten as far as I would like--things still unfinished. But I have gained more respect for and commitment to the 4430's."

Cool!


"In the meantime I had tried out another speaker that I had bought new. It had sounded great--with wonderful detail and accuracy--in the factory listening room (small company). But in my own home, I tried for a year but failed to get the same quality sound that I had heard. It was overly "analytical" and not as natural and warm as the 4430 turned out AFTER returning to it. In the meantime I had pretty much written off and ignored the JBL's during the time with the other speakers."

Okay, what are they??????!


"Returning to the 4430's, I moved all the speakers to another wall (under a slanted ceiling--more reflective--shaped somewhat like a band shell) for redecorating reasons. I hooked them up to a nice class A amp. It was a real ear-opener. In that setting, the newer, "analytical" system still seemed over-bearing, even more so, while the wall and ceiling worked with the JBL's plus the Class A electronics brought out the 4430's natural warmth. I really like the dynamic, effortless sound, more like live music. "

Yup, that is what hooks you!


"Later, reconing the 2235's definitely helped. Getting better all the time.
Somewhere on this forum I had read about replacing the diaphragms. I'm sure the 2426's would benefit from that but have not done that quite yet."

Keep goin'!

"And, I still want to add a midrange driver."

I hear you. Just make that a whole 'nother project!

"I'll update again back to Lansing Heritage when it's all done."

Please do!

"Again, I appreciate your asking."

Welcome!