The Battery Test-REDUX

[invstbiker]

This is going to be very basic, but I thought I would post this for us visual-only type of guys (and you know who you are) a picture tells the whole story.

1. Start with your basic 1.5 volt battery
2. Connect wires to battery. (I am lacking electrical tape, so I used Scotch brand. I kept the + terminal wire stripped very short so to contact with only the nub on the end of the battery.
3. With the cone of the woofer facing up, so you can see the movement, apply the wires + to + and - to - . If the cone moves outward your transducer is wired correctly, IF not it's back-ass-wards as mine was. I swapped the speakers internal wire to get mine in correct polarity.

[boputnam]

...apply the wires + to + and - to - . If the cone moves outward your transducer is wired correctly:no:

It depends upon the transducer. JBL has a legacy polarity - the predominance of JBL historic drivers are cone IN on positive voltage.

There has been a great deal posted here on this. Here's a few links for you - and you should SEARCH "Polarity" amongst other strings...

JBL Polarity Convention

And, you should read JBL Tech Note No. 12: (Link: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n12b.pdf)

[invstbiker]

Now I'm really in trouble, can't wait for the backlash on this one...:D
Just trying to be helpful.

[boputnam]

I swapped the speakers internal wire to get mine in correct polarity.You're not in trouble - yet...

But, your "solution", above, may be confused.

What is the transducer, and what is the application (cabinet, transducer ensemble, etc)?

[invstbiker]

Transducer in question is the 2231A from the 4343 model. After checking polarity with my handheld Phonic audio analyzer. The left channel showed "out of phase" After reversing the woofer wires, the Phonic read "in phase". Also did the battery check and the cone moves out when the battery + is connected to the neg terminal and - is connected to the pos terminal. All I know now is that my bass has improved and imaging is much better. The phonic reads "in phase" for both speakers.

[boputnam]

The 2231A is negative. Let me check the schematic to see how JBL intended it be connected - are you running these in a 4343, or where?

Regardless, it is obvious that in a pair of cabinets, each transducer's connections should match in each cabinet or your will get cancellations.

If you are using the 3143 network, my read of this network is:
LF: Red binding post to GRN lead = negative
MF: Black binding post to WHT lead = positive
HF: Black binding post to WHT lead = positive
UHF: Black binding post to WHT lead = positive

I should remember this stuff, but the LF is out-of-phase with the other three elements in the 4343.

How are you running this woof?

[invstbiker]

Yes 4343's "The Paul B's"

[boputnam]

Then, based upon your first post, you may want to check all the internal connections - someone had something cross-wired.

The LF's should (by design) be opposite the other elements.

As a general rule, SOLID colored (non-BLK) leads connect to the Red speaker terminal. JBL sorts all the rest of this crap out in their network internal wiring.

[invstbiker]

I will check the other componants. I am to assume that all solid color leads go to + terminals. So if another one is reversed on the mid, HF or tweeter, that could screw this all up as well. I'll check it out, I love playing with my crane...:D

[Mr. Widget]

I told you Bo was phase crazy...:D

Funny, we were discussing this on that bass thread simultaneously...



Widget

[edgewound]

I will check the other componants. I am to assume that all solid color leads go to + terminals. So if another one is reversed on the mid, HF or tweeter, that could screw this all up as well. I'll check it out, I love playing with my crane...:D

The positive terminal is black. "Positive voltage applied to the black terminal will cause outward cone/diaphragm movement".

Crossover networks are wired so as to keep the phase correct based on the network topology. Black striped wire from each crossover output goes to black terminal on each driver, solid wire goes to red driver terminal. Yellow pair is HF, white pair is MF, green pair is LF.

Then do the battery check on the system inputs. Black is still positive. If a cone moves in when positive voltage is applied to black speaker system input, something is miswired internally....possibly at the crossover's input from the external terminals. The red and black crossover input wires should match the red and black system input terminals.

[boputnam]

...Yellow pair is HF, white pair is MF, green pair is LF.Mostly true, certainly the solid vs striped bit.

There are slight color variations (mostly in the 4-ways).

As example the 3143 is:
LF = GRN / BLK
MF = WHT / BLK+WHT
HF = RED / RED+WHT
UHF = RED / RED+GRY

[boputnam]

Then do the battery check on the system inputs. Black is still positive. If a cone moves in when positive voltage is applied to black speaker system input, something is miswired internally....If I understand this, my grab is "no". :no:

The rear cabinet binding posts ("system inputs") are Red = (+), Black = (-).

If the cabinet internal wiring is done to design, and "system inputs" are connect as here, the LF cone in some designs will move in on positive voltage. It all depends on what the design is.

Unless you're DIY, connect solid colored (non-black) leads to the Red speaker terminals and you are spec with JBL design.

[John]

I just applied +to+ and -to- on a pair of 124H and the cone moves out?

[boputnam]

I just applied +to+ and -to- on a pair of 124H and the cone moves out?
I don't know that particular woof. Is that the true part number...?

:hmm:

[John]

I don't know that particular woof. Is that the true part number...?

:hmm:

Consumer version of the 2203
Was part of the component series

[boputnam]

Well, as I said - I don't know that one, and no-one has ever posted a test of it. There are some positive historic woofs out there, the rare birds...

Has it ever been reconed, and if so, by JBL kit? (I know, some kits reverse the polarity, but still...).

[John]

My mistake, I assumed that a ohm reading with a voltage gauge would be the same. I just used a AA battery and it does indeed move backwards.
ME BAD:o:

[John]

By the way Giskard has said that the 124H 2203H is the best 12" JBL LF ever made. Was used in the 4315.


The same motor as used on the 136H-2231H

[boputnam]

My mistake, I assumed that a ohm reading with a voltage gauge would be the same. I just used a AA battery and it does indeed move backwards.:applaud:

As you were, gentlemen!!


By the way Giskard has said that the 124H 2203H is the best 12" JBL LF ever made. Was used in the 4315.

The same motor as used on the 136H-2231HWell, it was not in my "Goes Into" list, but most of my references are at home...

[4313B]

By the way Giskard has said that the 124H 2203H is the best 12" JBL LF ever made. Was used in the 4315.


The same motor as used on the 136H-2231HYeah, but he's an idiot so I'd think twice about what I read that he posted.

Oh... wait... nevermind...

[spkrman57]

Yeah, but he's an idiot so I'd think twice about what I read that he posted.

Oh... wait... nevermind...

:thnkfast:

Ron

[John]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :cheers:

[boputnam]

Hey, edgewound - you've developed one heck of a stammer! ;)

[invstbiker]

Took both 2231A's out. Placed them side by side. Both red terminals are on the left and both black terminals are on the right. Both cones move out when the + battery is placed on the black terminal. OK, so we know they're negative transducers per BO and Widget, Thank You for that. I also lifted the upper panel from the left speaker and all solid wires go to red terminals and all solid w/black stripe wires go to the black terminals.(I now need some blue touchup paint, pain in the:moon: this is). I am not taking the other panel apart at this time.

Don't know what else to look for, but can only assume this is an anomoly. As per my "need more bass" thread, Swapping wires on the left hand woofer only, has my whole system in phase per my Phonic, and sounds really good. After all this, I believe it's beer thirty :cheers:

[edgewound]

Hey, edgewound - you've developed one heck of a stammer! ;)

Aww screw it...don't have time for this right now. I've checked lots of JBL systems over the years and have found that the black input terminal is the positive when applying the battery test to cause outward cone movement. Not all are like this though....

Spent too much time tryin' to figure out how to transfer .pdf to .jpg to be big enough to read....I think I got it.:applaud:

Trial and error.....sheeeesh.:p

[boputnam]

I've checked lots of JBL systems over the years and have found that the black input terminal is the positive when applying the battery test to cause outward cone move ment. Not all are like this though....That's certainly correct at the transducer - I was just making sure you did not mean the speaker cabinet connections. :no: That would have been mighty confusing...

[boputnam]

Spent too much time tryin' to figure out how to transfer .pdf to .jpg to be big enough to read....I think I got it.I can help you there, I think!

I found (if the .pdf is not security protected...) you should zoom the .pdf page to the size you want the .jpg. Then, select the area you want, paste it to Paint, and it will be the size it was in the .pdf.

[boputnam]

Took both 2231A's out. I also lifted the upper panel from the left speaker and all solid wires go to red terminals and all solid w/black stripe wires go to the black terminalsCool. Just re-mount both 2231A's with the GRN leads to the Red terminal. That is spec!

[invstbiker]

Correct, However, I get the left channel, reading "out of phase" Does the 4350 have 2231's? I could try swapping one of those out to check this one woof in question.

[boputnam]

Does the 4350 have 2231's? :yes:

Watch the blue paint!! :bash:

[invstbiker]

D.A.M.N. crane operator..

[Zilch]

Take the leads off your right cabinet and connect them to the left one.

Play Phonic phase tone through the right channel.

Still out of phase?

[It ain't the speakers, I'm thinkin', and the left channel is wired correctly. Phonic's just reading JBL negative polarity convention on the woofer....]

When you play that Phonic phase tone, what's it sound like? Full spectrum, or a bass tone?

[edgewound]

That's certainly correct at the transducer - I was just making sure you did not mean the speaker cabinet connections. :no: That would have been mighty confusing...

Hey Bo....I just had to make sure I wasn't imagining 18 years of servicing JBL systems.

Like I said before....Positive voltage applied to the black input terminal will cause outward cone movement...on the system input too!!

I just confirmed that with an L110 that I have in the shop. Now...mind you....not all systems are like this...especially newer systems. Check your 4345's input and see what happens. I wouldn't be surprised if positive battery DC to black makes your 2245 move outward. L65's are this way too as are L300's.

Indulge me won't you, please?

The 4641 also has the diagram as positve to black

[edgewound]

Here is more supporting evidence, your Honor, from the 4333 schematic:

As you can see here the black system input terminal goes to the GRN/BLK wire for the LF 2231 driver and to the black 2231 driver terminal which would cause outward cone movement when positive voltage is applied.

[grumpy]

well... if you hook the 2231's up to the crossovers "per spec" and try the battery test through the speaker input terminals and the results don't match (one goes in, one goes out), then revert to my earlier post re bass problems (check -all- of the wiring).

-grumpy

[invstbiker]

OK, I put the 2231 back in it's hole and wired it per spec, solid lead to red terminal. Did a battery check on the rear terminals of both speakers. Both woofs go in (not out) when + battery is touched with + terminal. I guess this confirms that the whole mess is a negative system. So now, the wiring to the amps. Am I supposed to reverse this? + from amp to neg terminal and - from amp to pos terminal. This is maddening. The world would be a better place if we we're just taught this one concept back in school, Good grief... :wtf:

[Zilch]

So now, the wiring to the amps. Am I supposed to reverse this? + from amp to neg terminal and - from amp to pos terminal. This is maddening. Nope. Just hook it the same way you have it on the right cabinet, and then do the Phonic phase check.

Again, what's that phase test tone sound like?

[edgewound]

Maybe someone will believe me now?

Connect both speakers to the amp the same way. Positive to either black or red whichever sounds better to you. Just as long as they're both in polarity from the amp, and you don't have any reverse polarity spliced speaker cables.

Conventional hook up makes the positive polarity, which in this case would be + to black terminal.

[invstbiker]

The Phonic phase test tone sounds like a very rapid thump, thump thump

Well, if these 43's are factory wired back-ass-wards, it make sense then that the + from the amp connects to the - on the back of both speakers. This would be proper polarity. I'll give this a try.

[invstbiker]

And when I go bi-amping (shortly) that should really be fun...:banghead:

[Zilch]

Thumps are testing via the woofers then. Fine.

You have done battery test on both woofers, and they are correct.

You have done battery test on both cabinets, and they are correct.

Asking you to power the left cabinet with the right channel was an attempt to determine whether the polarity of the two channels driving them was the same.

That has been subverted, now.

Hook the cabinets up any way you want to think is right, and then disconnect the speaker leads at the amplifier, and do the battery test on the disconnected leads.

[invstbiker]

Thumps are testing via the woofers then. Fine.

You have done battery test on both woofers, and they are correct.

You have done battery test on both cabinets, and they are correct.

Asking you to power the left cabinet with the right channel was an attempt to determine whether the polarity of the two channels driving them was the same.

That has been subverted, now.

Hook the cabinets up any way you want to think is right, and then disconnect the speaker leads at the amplifier, and do the battery test on the disconnected leads.

Numbers 1 and 2 above are done, still working on 3 but need to wait for an extra set of hands. She'll be home shortly, hang in there

[boputnam]

Like I said before....Positive voltage applied to the black input terminal will cause outward cone movement...on the system input too!!Didn't know you were so cranky at me - don't know why...

Anyway, the quote is certainly correct. We agree on that, all along.

My question was - and is - why would you want to connect the cabinets with (+) system output to the black cabinet terminal?

[boputnam]

I guess this confirms that the whole mess is a negative system. No. That merely confirms you are wired the way JBL designed these. On (+) signal, the LF goes in and the other elements go out. If you want to decipher the 3143 Network (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3143%20Network.pdf) you would see this

So now, the wiring to the amps. Am I supposed to reverse this? + from amp to neg terminal and - from amp to pos terminal. No, absolutely not. Just connect like anyone would with (+) system output to the Red cabinet terminal.


This is maddening. Yes, and it apparently makes some people quite angry... :(

[invstbiker]

Bo, why wouldn't you want to do this. Makes sense that the + from the amp should go to the - on the speaker since this would be correct polarity.

[boputnam]

Bo, why wouldn't you want to do this. Makes sense that the + from the amp should go to the - on the speaker since this would be correct polarity.Why?

Do you really think all these years JBL thought the Red on their cabinets backs would be connected to the (-) system output? If so, there would surely be plenty of markings in all the user manuals. There were (and are) some really clever guys there that thought all this through. JBL meant for you to connect (+) system output to Red cabinet terminal. They expected that...

Unless you are mating these cabinets with a pair which has the woofs going out on (+) it doesn't matter one dB. You cannot tell the difference.

However, you (edgewound, and anyone) can wire them anyway you want. I am only sharing the JBL negative convention and, to urging you not make the mistake of rewiring your cabinets unless you are seeking something other than what JBL designed.

[invstbiker]

[quote=boputnam]Why?

Unless you are mating these cabinets with a pair which has the woofs going out on (+) it doesn't matter one dB. You cannot tell the difference.

OK, So what you are saying is that, "assuming the damn things are in phase" anyone would not be able to tell the difference how they're wired in the back + to + or + to - as to sound. OK, I'm with you on that, but it doesn't make sense if it's a negative system. JBL shoulda recalled 'em all or sent out new terminal instructions to swap 'em.

It's not to late to "boot" this thread...:D

What a pain in the ass!! I do appreciate the help and I will get to the bottom of this and I will have two 43's in phase-eventually.

I will gladly swap a One-Eyed Jack's shirt (new) for a small amount of "BO-BLUE". Any takers??

[boputnam]

OK, So what you are saying is that, "assuming the damn things are in phase" anyone would not be able to tell the difference how they're wired in the back + to + or + to - as to sound. OK, I'm with you on that, but it doesn't make sense if it's a negative system. JBL shoulda recalled 'em all or sent out new terminal instructions to swap 'em. It's exactly as edgewound said - you can run the cabinets anyhow you choose.

It's not a "negative" system. Hell, three of the four elements in that cabinet with that crossover are out on (+) signal!

My point is, JBL designed that woofer in that cabinet with that crossover to go in on (+) signal, and, for the woofer to be opposite to the other three elements. Only with that configuration will you achieve what JBL designed. It's all good.

My 2245H's are cone in on (+) and it is so very fine...


It's not to late to "boot" this thread...:D Aren't you glad I ignored your pm early this morning? This is fun!! :nutz:

[toddalin]

It's exactly as edgewound said - you can run the cabinets anyhow you choose.

It's not a "negative" system. Hell, three of the four elements in that cabinet with that crossover are out on (+) signal!

My point is, JBL designed that woofer in that cabinet with that crossover to go in on (+) signal, and, for the woofer to be opposite to the other three elements. Only with that configuration will you achieve what JBL designed. It's all good.

My 2245H's are cone in on (+) and it is so very fine...

Aren't you glad I ignored your pm early this morning? This is fun!! :nutz:

I have to run my JBL L/C/R reversed at the inputs because my four surround speakers (Cerwin Vega) run standard convention and they are unreachable (16 feet in the air).

As long as all speakers are properly phased (regardless of convention), I can't hear a difference and after switching the input wires on the JBLs, my Yamaha reports them all in phase. (Initially, it did report them as out of phase.)

[invstbiker]

My point is, JBL designed that woofer in that cabinet with that crossover to go in on (+) signal, and, for the woofer to be opposite to the other three elements. Only with that configuration will you achieve what JBL designed. It's all good.

My 2245H's are cone in on (+) and it is so very fine...

Aren't you glad I ignored your pm early this morning? This is fun!! :nutz:[/quote]

OK, I'm with ya man, I'll run it the JBL way. I've just got to get the phasing issue figured out and the Z-Man is helping me with this.

[invstbiker]

OK, Wifey came home and was able to move the macdaddys. Both 2231A's are wired per JBL spec. I Phase Checked both speakers on the left channel AND both speakers on the right channel. All report IN PHASE :applaud: per my Phonic. The only thing left to do is to check the phase on the left and right channels respectively. Wires from the amps to the back of the boxes are + to red and - to black. I have quadruple checked all wiring, SO, if this now works like it's supposed to, we can end this all day thread already but it's time to eat and I need a break as I'm sure you do too!! BIG EXHALE, stay tuned...

[grumpy]

It'd be funny if one of the mac's were wired out of phase... improper
bridge setting (mono amps?), or something similar...
(ok, maybe funny isn't the best word). -grumpy:duck:

[invstbiker]

Yes Grumpy, That would really piss me off, I'd be in a straight jacket....

OK, 1 Beer and 1 Burrito later. It's all re-hooked up. The first thing I did was Phonic phase test the left side, then the right side. Both sides tested.....IN PHASE :applaud: Nice little gadget.



Now after all this you're probably thinkin' my external wires we're screwy, and I sure wish I could say that but my integrity won't let me. I really don't know why originally the left speaker was out of phase and now it is correct? After all that screwin' around today, I have learned a couple of things.

1. I know how to do a battery test.
2. I know that different JBL transducers could be positive or negative
3. I know I need a very small amount of blue paint (will swap an OEJ shirt)
4. I know that there's alot of great people on this site. And
5. I know I love JBL's

THANKS to all who have helped me attain audio nirvana, Next up is Bi-amping...

Bo, Feel free to boot this thread if you're so inclined. :D

Thank You,

Steve

[edgewound]

Didn't know you were so cranky at me - don't know why...

Anyway, the quote is certainly correct. We agree on that, all along.

My question was - and is - why would you want to connect the cabinets with (+) system output to the black cabinet terminal?

Ok Bo...I'm not cranky with you...a lil frustrated maybe. Fact is, no one really knows for sure why JBL went with black as the positive...one story was that in the 1930's and 40's electricians were the installers in move theaters and one 120 volt AC, BLACK is the hot lead....primary leg of 220 with red being the secondary.

My explanation was it's necessary to know the polarity conventions...or unconventions... of JBL Trandsducers and Systems. It's especially imprtant to know if you're using other mfg speakers in the same room, like a surrouns sound set up. You said your take on my wiring explanation was wrong and it clearly isn't. I want the record to show that as an Authorized Servicer I know what I'm talking about....and I provided proof....fair enough? I hope it is.:)

The internal wiring of the cabinet is color coded to make sure the drivers are hooked up to the network properly to maintain phase alignment based on the crossover topology...be it 6,12,18 or 24dB per octave and the associated 90 degree phase shift with each 6dB of slope....or how the filters measure.

If it makes anyone feel any better....New JBL drivers and systems...are red as positive....to be more in line with the industry as a whole.....'bout time huh?

[Zilch]

OK, 1 Beer and 1 Burrito later. It's all re-hooked up. The first thing I did was Phonic phase test the left side, then the right side. Both sides tested.....IN PHASE :applaud:Well, it's obvious Wifey fixed whatever the problem was!! ;)

Bottom line, is the bass back now as it should be?

[Good call, Grumpy. I was thinking bridge switch engaged or anomalous XLR interconnect cable on one side....]

[invstbiker]

Well ZMAN after the effort today, THAT IS the most logical explanation :bouncy:

[boputnam]

You said your take on my wiring explanation was wrong and it clearly isn't. That isn't what I said - I said it wasn't necessary to connect the (+) system output to the Black cabinet terminal to be "correct" as your post implied.


I want the record to show that as an Authorized Servicer I know what I'm talking about....and I provided proof....fair enough? I hope it is.:) We know you are the real McCoy and me but a mere civilian, which is why I steer interested parties to you for your work.


The internal wiring of the cabinet is color coded to make sure the drivers are hooked up to the network properly Yea, we covered this some moons ago, to try and ensure readers that it really required a whole lot less thinking on their part!


New JBL drivers and systems...are red as positive....to be more in line with the industry as a whole.....Yea, and it's more clear than that - there is verbage to the extent that "(+) voltage results in outward cone movement" or some such. I somewhere have a pic of a 2262HPL I had pulled, and the label is quite hilarious. I'll try and find it...

[John]

What I would like to know is "How did a pristine pair of 4343's in unmolested condition get so F**KED UP":banghead:

[boputnam]

Happens a great deal with vintage cabinets. Owners get in there, think they know what's going on - or worse, forget how things were connected - and muck it up. Steve's were an easy case, and he was on the right track at the first!

It would be nice if any mods were documented on the rear of cabinets, but no - it's not done. I've found some really whacked-out mods - all of it wrong. But, you have to look.

Success on eBay is only the start of the journey... ;)

[grumpy]

I'm just happy that Steve's happy, and there was a talked-through learning process.
Interesting phase indicator...:)

-grumpy
:cheers:

[Zilch]

What I would like to know is "How did a pristine pair of 4343's in unmolested condition get so F**KED UP":banghead:They didn't, actually.

They were (are) perfect.

The problem was "external." ;)

[invstbiker]

What I would like to know is "How did a pristine pair of 4343's in unmolested condition get so F**KED UP":banghead:

Sir, You're assuming they're "F**KED" up. They are as perfect as the day I got them, except for a very tiny chip in the blue paint following all the posts for checking of wiring. You may want to re-read this thread to clarify your misinterpretation. But I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with anyone about this. Believe me, I would have rather not done anything to these accept that one was out of phase and after all this checking, everything is perfect.

[John]

Hi Steve I did not mean to imply that you had anything to do with the problem you encountered with these, but I am going by memory and seem to remember the seller saying they were perfect and ready to serve their new owner. If my memory is wrong, excuse me.

If you got everything under control I am happy for you.:applaud:

I know I would of been pulling my hair out by now:banghead:

When I buy something from ebay I expect problems like this, but when someone says they owned these from new and then you have to mess around like this, Well:( And I am not sure how I was starting a pissing match

[boputnam]

...there is verbage to the extent that "(+) voltage results in outward cone movement" or some such. I somewhere have a pic of a 2262HPL I had pulled, and the label is quite hilarious. I'll try and find it...As promised. :)

[invstbiker]

Hi Steve I did not mean to imply that you had anything to do with the problem you encountered with these, but I am going by memory and seem to remember the seller saying they were perfect and ready to serve their new owner. If my memory is wrong, excuse me.

Hey John, No sweat, I just didn't want this thread taking a wrong turn, like other threads have in the past, and people leaving, etc. By you saying these were F'd up, I read that as a criticism of my speakers. I'm very happy with them now that I have the phasing issue straightened out. We're movin' on...:)

[John]

Hey Steve One of my rules of life, never piss off the bartender, And another one is never put down another man's JBL's:cheers:

I hope to walk into your saloon one day and hope to walk out as well.:thnkfast:
I hope you got some JBL's in there to go with the brew.???:bouncy:

[invstbiker]

Look forward to havin' ya John...:D And yes we do have JBL's at the bar, just not the vintage kind we know here (or pretend to know) HA

[Rudy Kleimann]

No. That merely confirms you are wired the way JBL designed these. On (+) signal, the LF goes in and the other elements go out. If you want to decipher the 3143 Network (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3143%20Network.pdf) you would see this
No, absolutely not. Just connect like anyone would with (+) system output to the Red cabinet terminal.

Yes, and it apparently makes some people quite angry... :(

Bo. you have missed the boat on this one.

In one of the JBL Technical notes (White Papers), this is discussed in detail, and includes a list of JBL cabinets that should have the speaker leads connected in reverse. Invstbiker's speaker cabinet is one of them. My JBL L-166's are another example of this.

In terms of absolute polarity, invstbiker has got it figured out correctly. Leave everything inside the cabinet as factory, and connect the amplifier-to-speaker cables in reverse polarity on BOTH JBL CABINETS. If the Phonic phase checker drives the system from an audio input jack on his preamp through the audio chain to the speakers and monitors the output with a microphone, then the Phonic unit will confirm this to be true. If one of his amplifiers, audio patch cables, or speaker cables are inverting polarity, the phonic will reveal this too. It's the only right way to check the entire setup and get things right.

Lessons learned years ago from my own experience with large live music sound systems prove the importance of this. Polarity problems can crop up anywhere in the audio chain. For example, most models of QSC power amps invert phase on the 1/4" audio input jacks: tip is -, ring is +, sleeve is ground. The amps are marked as such with a note of "RTS" instead of "TRS". This can reek havoc when used with other brands of amplifiers on the same system. Same goes for JBL 2226 and 2206 woofers. Use JBL SR-series cabinets, and they are cross-wired internally at the factory crossover to yield a cabinet input of positive polarity convention i.e. +to red (or tip or neutrik +) yields outward cone movement. Use 2226's in homebrew cabinets wired internally red to + along with them, and you have BIG TROUBLE. Use the QSC's with 1/4" cables feeding them, you better swap polarity on the speaker cabling!

I used to run a 25KW triamp FOH rig where each side was powered by 2 QSC Mx3000a's pushing the subs, 2 QSC Mx3000a's on the mids, and one channel of a Mackie 1400 running 4 2447H's for the highs. When I first went to work for them, the owner couldn't understand why the system sounded so badly and weak -or why he kept killing woofers. Stage monitors sounded wierd (bad), and there were freaky feedback problems. A comprehensive checkup with a phase checker found the root of the problem. I ended up rewiring everything right, and the system started kickin' ass like it should. The owner was thrilled. After that, it was also a long time before he had to recone any drivers.

Here is a picture of 3/4 of the above described setup at a smaller gig. At larger venues we had another SR4733A "top" and another 4719A Sub on each side. The lone 4733A's sitting on the amp racks were sideshot stage monitors powered by a bridged MX2000!

[invstbiker]

Bo. you have missed the boat on this one.

In one of the JBL Technical notes (White Papers), this is discussed in detail, and includes a list of JBL cabinets that should have the speaker leads connected in reverse. This speaker cabinet is one of them.

In terms of absolute polarity, invstbiker has got it figured out correctly. Leave everything inside the cabinet as factory, and connect the amplifier-to-speaker cables in reverse polarity on BOTH JBL CABINETS. If the Phonic phase checker drives the system from an audio input jack on his preamp through the audio chain to the speakers and monitors the output with a microphone, then the Phonic unit will confirm this to be true. If one of his amplifiers, audio patch cables, or speaker cables are inverting polarity, the phonic will reveal this too. It's the only right way to check the entire setup and get things right.

Thx for the info Rudy, Well now you've got me thinkin' again about this, Yes the phonic plugs directly into the preamp. I will run another phase check and reverse the leads on both speakers and run it again, however I'm out of cables, so it may take me a couple of days to do this, but will report my findings with the Phonic

[boputnam]

Bo. you have missed the boat on this one.

No, I didn't. You are confusing applications, is all.


In one of the JBL Technical notes (White Papers), this is discussed in detail, and includes a list of JBL cabinets that should have the speaker leads connected in reverse. This speaker cabinet is one of them. That is Technical Notes, Volume 1 Number 12B (undated but attached) and the recent Technical Notes, Volume 1 Number 12C (http://www.jblpro.com/tech-library/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf) (dated June '05 :applaud: ).

In 12B, JBL is particularly specific in maintaining polarity with Pin2(+) convention and microphone use in LIVE applications (see image excerpt). There it does matter, and all soundguys know this (almost... :p ).

But, most of the guys here are not roaddogs and in their home and studio applications it does not matter, and can "lead" to confusion if they connect (+) system output to cabinet Black. It is absolutely unnecessary unless they are pairing JBL negative cabinets with other brands. But, then again there are polarity issues with pairing ANY multi-element cabinet. :scold:

We have discussed these things on many threads over the years.

And, invstbiker's 4343 cabinets are not specifically listed in either of these.

--------

btw, I'm betting Oldmics and I are gonna want to know what your FOH and monitorworld desks are... :yes:

[boputnam]

...most models of QSC power amps invert phase on the 1/4" audio input jacksThat should read:

...many older models of QSC power amps which have 1/4" inputs invert phase..." because that is not true of the more recent (last 5 years at least) QSC line.

[invstbiker]

But, most of the guys here are not roaddogs and in their home and studio applications it does not matter, and can "lead" to confusion if they connect (+) system output to cabinet Black. It is absolutely unnecessary unless they are pairing JBL negative cabinets with other brands. But, then again there are polarity issues with pairing ANY multi-element cabinet. :scold:

We have discussed these things on many threads over the years.

And, invstbiker's 4343 cabinets are not specifically listed in either of these.

Bo, You mean I can be done with all this??

[boputnam]

Bo, You mean I can be done with all this??Man, I sure thought we were! :yes:

So long as your cabinets are each doing the same thing polarity wise and they are connected to the amp the same way (all of which you confirmed with the help of Zilchster and your Phonic), it does not matter.

Now, just go enjoy...

But never, ever forget JBL legacy polarity. It was important to James B. Lansing, therefore it is important to us!

[Rudy Kleimann]

No, I didn't. You are confusing applications, is all.

That is Technical Notes, Volume 1 Number 12B (undated but attached) and the recent Technical Notes, Volume 1 Number 12C (http://www.jblpro.com/tech-library/JBL_TechNoteN1V12C_v5.pdf) (dated June '05 :applaud: ).

In 12B, JBL is particularly specific in maintaining polarity with Pin2(+) convention and microphone use in LIVE applications (see image excerpt). There it does matter, and all soundguys know this (almost... :p ).

But, most of the guys here are not roaddogs and in their home and studio applications it does not matter, and can "lead" to confusion if they connect (+) system output to cabinet Black. It is absolutely unnecessary unless they are pairing JBL negative cabinets with other brands. But, then again there are polarity issues with pairing ANY multi-element cabinet. :scold:

We have discussed these things on many threads over the years.

And, invstbiker's 4343 cabinets are not specifically listed in either of these.

--------

btw, I'm betting Oldmics and I are gonna want to know what your FOH and monitorworld desks are... :yes:

Well...

I think you already know the boards used in this guys' setup were nothing fancy. In fact, the old monitor board is right beside the left FOH amp rack: A Mackie 24/4. fed throygh a 32x4 50'/150' split snake. FOH board in those days (2001) was a (you guessed it) Mackie 32/8. The FOH board was replaced by an A&H GL4000. Still nothing to brag about, but a big step up in Sound quality and function. I was a Mix Engineer and worked on all the gear for the owner. This system did (still does) around 120-150 shows a year. Kept me busier than a cat in a litterbox...:p

Regarding the polarity thing, I don't want this to turn into the proverbial "pissing contest".:no:

I checked the .pdf link in your post, and on pg 2 , under "Studio Monitors",
it clearly states: All 4300 Series models (except models 4311 and 4312L, R) are negative. This includes the 4343's in question.


As a musician since age 8, and an audiophile since my teens, I can percieve absolute polarity pretty often. I realize that I am in the minority in this matter. OTOH, just about anyone can hear polarity problems in a complex system, and let's face it, home audio systems are complicated anymore. Take 5.1( or 6.1 or 7.1) audio for starters...

My old JBL/Urei 6290 has TRS tip + and XLR pin 3+, as verified in the manual.:banghead: This was a nuisance when I used it with my Rane AC22B crossover at home to drive subs. And just last year, I scored an ebay deal on a pair of Monster Cable XLR to 1/4" balanced cables only to find that they were factory made with tip to pin 3 and ring to pin 2. So, the problem still comes up every now and then.

The QSC's that have Neutrik combo jacks do not suffer this polarity problem for obvious reasons. But, there are a hell of a lot of Mx and Ex-series amps out in the field, and they all have the 1/4" RTS: tip-, ring+. Some have the optional input board with XLR's that are wired with "normal" Pin 2+ convention. A lot of other QSC's have separate 1/4" and XLR inputs, where RTS tip is -, and XLR pin2 is +.

Forgive me, but I am a consistency fanatic, and to me, right is right. It's simpler that way.:) I have concluded that it is important to conform to the "standard" and that any "non-standard" items should be connected appropriately i.e. make the change at their connection point to get in sync with the world.

Just my $0.02

[boputnam]

I checked the .pdf link in your post, and on pg 2 , under "Studio Monitors", it clearly states: All 4300 Series models (except models 4311 and 4312L, R) are negative. This includes the 4343's in question. Ah, that is correct. I saw the 4312 but was looking for the 4343, exactly - my error. We gigged until 4am, I'm kinda groggy... Regardless, this does not mean that a home user needs to do anything of the sort you are recommending - it simply does not matter.



As a musician since age 8, and an audiophile since my teens, I can percieve absolute polarity... I find that amazing. Not that you started music at so late an age :p , but that you can perceive absolute polarity. I cannot see how you can do this (unless your ear drum does something splendiferous during the negative phase in the sine wave) - but I will not engage in arguing this myth.



I realize that I am in the minority in this matter. :yes:


OTOH, just about anyone can hear polarity problems in a complex system, and let's face it, home audio systems are complicated anymore. In that we agree. But, invstbker does not have a "polarity" problem. His cabinets are consistent, and it does not matter whether he connects them both (+) system output to Red, or your backwards way. They will sound the same.


My old JBL/Urei 6290 has TRS tip + and XLR pin 3+, as verified in the manual.:banghead: This was a nuisance when I used it with my Rane AC22B crossover at home to drive subs. Always good to check the manual. And I wouldn't use a Rane anything - that I CAN hear - but that's just me...


And just last year, I scored an ebay deal on a pair of Monster Cable XLR to 1/4" balanced cables only to find that they were factory made with tip to pin 3 and ring to pin 2. Maybe that's why they were a deal? :rotfl: JK


So, the problem still comes up every now and then.It always does, that's why we're discussing this again.



The QSC's that have Neutrik combo jacks do not suffer this polarity problem That's why I suggested a more correct reference, rather than mislead about QSC. Some were made that way; they no longer are for maybe 10-years. All the QSC's I use have XLR inputs, btw.


Forgive me, but I am a consistency fanatic, and to me, right is right. It's simpler that way. Cool, but just so long as you state it that way, and don't propogate myth. It only matters in specific cases.


have concluded that it is important to conform to the "standard" and that any "non-standard" items should be connected appropriately i.e. make the change at their connection point to get in sync with the world.Dunno - if it were me, in that picture you show, I would have chaged the wiring on the CV's - there were fewer of them... ;)

[Rudy Kleimann]

I just PM'd you Bo. Enjoy the read!

I only addressed what I knew the QSC's were up to with the cable arrangement we were using. Gotta play the cards I'm dealt.:nutz:
You are exactly right about ...specific cases... the really important thing is that the drivers in the cabinets are hooked up properly, and that the two cabinets are being driven in phase with each other.

Actually, the cabinets weren't a problem- all the JBL cabinets pictured are of Positive polar convention at the cabinet input terminals, as were the Vegas. JBL's factory wiring changed polarity as needed inside the cabinet at the crossover and/or input jacks, and color-coded the internal wiring to match the drivers' terminals. IOW, the battery test revealed that all the cabinets were positive, JBL's and Vegas.

What I did was permanently attach the speaker cables to the amp terminals with the phasing right for all. We rolled the cables up into the rack at the end of the gig. What used to take 1/2 hour in hunting for speaker and input cables (and inevitably having one or two that were bad) became a 5-minute walk in the park that always worked. One long cable to the snake box, one 120V pigtail to a 10Gauge extension cord from the Pwr. Distro, and four fan-tailed multi-conductor cables to the speakers. Maybe once a year I would have to fix a cable, at which time I would just re-do the ends on all of them as a matter of course.

[boputnam]

I just PM'd you Bo. Enjoy the read!I did! :yes:

Glad to know another knob farmer! Now get out there and keep practicing!! :applaud:

[Rudy Kleimann]

Oh yeah, one other thing: I've heard Rane gear dissed here before:o: , but I can promise you they sound a helluva lot better than the DBX223's you see in that amp rack I used to run...

The Ashlys do sound nice, I must admit. Just haven't swooped a deal up on any to call my own.

[boputnam]

...haven't swooped a deal up on any to call my own.So much gear - so little time... :banghead:

:)