Comparisons

[Ducatista47]

Member L100t Owner has asked an interesting question on a marketplace thread. Since it belongs here, I will dare to start a general forum thread about it.

He asked, "How do they (4345's) compare to the 250ti (soundwise)."

Obviously apples and oranges, and I cannot answer since I know the Legendary 250 only by reputation. Could we possible have a civil discussion of how different speakers sound different from each other? This has nothing to do with what sounds "better" and involves no agendas other than the original question - except expanded to other speaker comparisons.

Given recent events, no need to explain the emphasis.

I would be very interested to know how a 4435 sounds different from a (insert name here). Or a 250ti vs. an 4345. Or believe it or not, some one might want to know (Not ME!), an L100 Century vs. a VOTT! Etc, etc, etc. You get the idea. The point here is, some members have heard a lot of speakers, some have not. While A/B comparisons are a nice luxury, most interested members do not have a listening room full of top tier JBL's, Altec's and who knows what.

The idea is to share your wonderful insights. The terms suck, walk all over, eat alive, wipe the floor with or any similar brain dead utterances have no part in this. More like "more (or less) balanced", "better bass clarity", "less transparent mids", "less crossover distortion", "better in a smaller room", "good classical music speaker", "total lack of low bass," etc., etc.

And yes, you know who (plural), it has been discussed many times over the years (probably most often when a speaker comes up on eBay and a new member asks what do they../are they better than...), but I don't think in one place or in this format. And not recently. Here is something that would help out the many, many newer members who were not around for the thousands of other posts in a thousand threads now long past, but want to know this information very much. Sure it is subjective as well as objective, but this is something most who visit this site would want to know. What do YOU hear/think? This topic is not in the Library or the JBL website.

Anyone game? I am dying to hear the insights of you fellow listeners and music lovers. Maybe we could begin with the original question, and take requests from there.

Clark in Peoria

[Ian Mackenzie]

You might refer this question to Greg Timbers (JBL).

[Don McRitchie]

I definitely suggest that no one ask Greg Timbers this question. I know from your response that you understand the reasons why, but it doesn't hurt for the benefit of the forum at large to state them explicitly. First, Greg was not involved in all of the speakers mentioned above and it would be asking him to comment on the competition as well. Second, and most importantly, this is not a reasonable request given his demonstrated limited ability to participate in this forum. Greg has generously provided his input on three occasions. However, the degree of his involvement and pace must be at his discretion. I can guarantee that direct solicitations for his input would very quickly reach a point where demand exceeds his available time. At that time he would rightfully conclude that this forum is a distraction that he cannot afford. I do not want to see that situation develop.

Back to your original question. I don't think that you will find many forum members that are anxious to take on this issue. You will not find a definitive assessment. You will find lots of opinions and a search of this forum should reveal opinions on just about all of the comparisons you mentioned. However, it is almost certain that any such discussion will end up in a pissing contest of one sort or another. For every weakness ascribed to a given system, defenders will arise to battle for their chosen system's honor. For every strength ascribed, contesters will arise to attempt to tear down that opinion. All too frequently, the discussion de-evolves to discredit the opinion holders and not just the opinions. Therefore, it is unlikely if many long term forum members, myself included, are eager to open that can of worms.

[Mr. Widget]

Aw shucks Don... I was getting ready to explain why headphones are the only way to enjoy... oh wrong thread.:eek:


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gee Don,

While I understand that sounded like a speech from Bush's press secretary right off the boot. "The answer to the question is you can't ask that question quote un quote":p

What I was really implying (not in the literal sense) was that no one bar the designer would be able to accurately articulate the merits of each system in such terms of the system (drivers) capabilities... strengths and weaknesses that would prove meaningful and useful otherwise.

That as an explanation would as a principle be far more valuable to the general readeship than any amount of subjective discussion.

That was the gist of my post.

[Ducatista47]

Since Everyone, including myself, agrees this is such a bad idea, I have asked Don to nuke this thread. Everyone who has responded here has done so with good humor, but Don feels it would not remain so.

Maybe someone could go back to "Watch This Space" on the marketplace and explain to L100t Owner why I should have ignored his question. Apparently the sad fact is the membership could not be trusted to answer without starting a fight. As a stupid fellow who stupidly, I am now told, thinks the best of people and had outlined what I stupidly thought was a workable format to answer questions like L100t Owner's, I would probably give an answer too stupid to post.
I already killed my stupid response post, but the software here does not allow for the deletion of my post stupidly originating this thread.

Clark, hopefully the starter of no more threads.

[porschedpm]

Perhaps a more manageable and less volatile approach would be for members to list the JBLs they've spent some time with, ranked in the order of their preference, from highest preference to lowest. Altecs, and JBL DIY homegrown speakers could also be ranked. As an example here's what my preferences would look like:

-4343B (modified to 4344 spec)
-XPL200
-240Ti
-120Ti
-4412 and 4412A (tie)
-4312A
-DIY 4312A drivers in L100 Cabinet, with L100T crossover
-L65 Jubal
-L100
-18Ti

By just listing preferences, you're not opening up for discussion the reasons you believe a speaker sounds better than another. You're simply stating that you like speaker A over speaker B, and so on.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Michael Smith were are you?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Understood; But there have been too many JBL's and it would be too much work to list and rank them.
Frankly, it sounds like a homework assignment. :p
Sometimes I want to hear an 18Ti and sometimes I want to hear a 4355.

Actually the answer is in fine print on some of the sales literature.

Something to the effect that JBL Professional products are not intended for consumer household use followed by a dissclaimer about hearing damage.

Aside from the technology its a case of understanding the applications and why certain models on both the Consumer and Professional Series were made and designed a certain way.

That is your research assignment.

I good sale rep would never attempt to sell a product across applications unless the customer had special grounds for the decision. Of course a industrial/technical purchase decision is very different from a consumer purchase decision but we all know that.

All things being equal a recording engineer might prefer the professional monitor in the studio at work during a mix down of a live feed and the 250Ti for his listening to consumer mass market recorded music in his home.

What all the hubba is about I will never know.

[4313B]

I deleted my two posts following porchepdm's post and removed myself from this thread therefore any quoted passages are out of context.

Thanks Don! :)

[moldyoldy]

I know it's an unrealistic goal, but personally, I don't want my speakers to "sound like" anything, except the music that's served them. A little ditty I composed some time ago elaborates;

Just the Music, Please
(on plain, white toast, hold the mayo)


I went to see the Doc’ today,
To check on my condition.
I had to know if what I had
was real or superstition.

He beamed his light in both my ears,
(it didn’t shine clear through)
And after several other tests,
claimed nothing he could do.

“What seems to be the problem?”
he asked with furrowed brow.
“You seem to be in perfect health,
At least, that is, for now.”

So I explained
just what had pained
my conscience for so long:

“I can’t hear my stereo!
There must be something lacking.
I’ve checked the phase and time delays,
and even fine-tuned tracking.”

“Though everything works just like it should,
and music sounds just fine,
From what I’ve read, it seems there could
be something out of line.”

“They say I should hear ‘warmth’ and ‘tone’,
and lots of ‘sparkling highs’.
The bass that’s from my woofer cone
should smack me ‘tween the eyes.”

“They use a word I’ve never heard,
a thing called ‘tarentessa’.
And if my system’s lacking it,
it must be valued lessa.”

“I should hear colors, bold and bright,
like on the album jacket.
But if it got up ‘in-my-face’,
I think I’d have to smack it!”

The doctor grinned a wise man’s grin,
and offered me a chair.
He somehow seemed much younger
than the silver of his hair.

“My friend”, he said, “there’s nothing wrong
with your hearing or perception.
It seems you merely suffer from
some simple misdirection.”

“You see, at times, we all forget
that we can't really share
exactly what our senses feel
with others, here and there.”

“It’s just as hard to pen a sound,
as it is to hear a color,
Or taste the breeze that bends the trees,
to share it with another.”

So I resolved that I would try,
to listen more with my own ear,
and see with my own eye.

I’ve got some Allmans playing,
now that I’m off the clock.
It really does sound better,
Man, those guys could rock!

I feel a whole lot better now,
knowing nothing's wrong.
Not hearing what 'they' said I should,
only just the song.

[hapy._.face]

Moldy,

You rock!

[Ducatista47]

Since this mess in my fault, I will respond.

Don was correct on both counts. While he and I seem to be the only two LH members who thought someone might not see Ian's tongue in his cheek when he "suggested" asking Mr. Timbers, his alarm at the prospect is completely understandable and necessary. My fault, not Ian's, who's post is as usual hilarious and informative. Had I not responded so specifically, the fuse would never have been lit. Thus deleting the post.

More disappointing, and this is why I was stupid, is the reality that suggesting a few lame guidelines to control the level and type of discourse would not avoid the eventual catfight.

I think L100t Owner's - and my - question is legitimate. Comparing the sound of two good speakers when you can't hear both does beg an answer. Only a relative few members have heard way more than their fair share of speakers. It is a poor substitute to describe a sound, but members with experience and language skills could get an inexperienced member like myself in the ballpark. The sad, sad fact seems to be that when it is stated that someone hears a warmer mid bass from one speaker than another, some member will eventually take offense, as if it were a competetion and one must win and one must lose.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people, it has been said, but I assumed a wonderful community like this would be an exception, and I still think it is for the most part. But was I stupid to assume that? Don thinks so, and I will not argue with Don, period. Ever.

I don't ever want to argue with anyone. I am a man of peace.

I would like to think I am ignorant, not stupid, but in this case I seem to be some of both. I'm sorry, Don.

Clark in Mortville, for you John Waters fans.

[johnaec]

Sheesh, Clark - you're taking this stuff way too seriously. I've really noticed that from a lot of members lately. This should just be a nice place to check in, like an afternoon at a golf club or something... :)

John

[Ducatista47]

That done, Porschedpm's idea seems workable, even if some think it is homeworkable. It doesn't address the original question directly, but it is not far off.

Mine will be the easiest and most obvious list of all. If this order starts a fight, I really do quit.:blink:

Descending order of quality of sound (to my brain), which is what matters to me:

4345
4333
Control 10
JBL Platinum Series

I gave away the Allisons.

Peace, Clark

[Ducatista47]

Sheesh, Clark - you're taking this stuff way to seriously. I've really noticed that from a lot of members lately. This should just be a nice place to check in, like an afternoon at a golf club or something... :)

John
Quite true. But...when someone like me gets a cautionary post on a thread I started from Don, I take it seriously. He said it was a bad idea. I can't argue with that. Or him.

Clark

[Mr. Widget]

Personally I think John is right and everyone else is wrong! :applaud:


Seriously, I think Don's concern about contacting Mr. Timbers is not ill founded... we all know where he works:D and if we started calling JBL and pestering him, he'd never get any cool new JBLs designed.

I hope Don was being gun shy with his fear that we can't discuss our favorite and less favorite JBLs in order or by description... if we can't do that it is time to walk away and remember the good old days.

Please, let's not turn this into another self focused analytical thread talking about the right to talk.:blah:

The best JBLs I own are a pair of Century L100s... they are also the worst pair I own... and that's not a bad place to be.:applaud:


Widget

[Ducatista47]

OK, Widget, your list is the least contentious.:D

[Don McRitchie]

Just to be clear, my intent was not to block discussion on this topic. Anyone is free to ask any question they wish as long is it is on topic with regards to the forum it is posted in and does not violate the rules. I just shared my opinion that you may not get what you are looking for. Your request is not a simple one. I read it as an attempt to develop an objective comparison of a wide range of Lansing products and I don't see a practical way to do this. Let's start with logistics. To compare the five systems mentioned in your original post you would need a matrix of comparisons for each system to each other. That would be 20 separate mini reviews. If you want to do it for 10 systems, you're up to 90 and it increases exponentially in this manner for every system you add to the list.

Now maybe you don't think this approach is necessary. However I don't know how you avoid it and still meet your goal. For example, take the attribute of imaging. There is no objective measurement for this. To assess the imaging of a particular speaker as "good" doesn't mean anything. It's good relative to what? The only way to attempt to put it in perspective is to assess the imaging in comparison to another speaker and in this manner you are back to the matrix I mentioned above.

This assumes that you can objectively assess an attribute like imaging from one speaker to another and I have never seen a means of doing this. It will only be an opinion, and on every forum I have encountered, gaining a consensus opinion on anything is next to impossible. This is not to mention the danger of starting a pissing contest like I stated at the top. If people feel that we are attempting to establish a reference comparison of Lansing speakers, they will become even more combative to ensure that their favorite is not slighted. Nobody wants their personal choice permanently invalidated in a high profile reference on the primary Lansing site on the net.

This doesn't mean that a discussion of the subjective merits of any particular loudspeaker, or even a comparison against others, is off limits. Lord knows that this is probably the most common reason people post here - to gain or share input on sound of Lansing speakers. I'm just saying that you need to recognize the limits of this input. By all means, feel free to ask anyone's opinion about the sound of any given speaker or comparison. Just don't expect that the answers can be collated and assembled into a reference that will have a consensus agreement. At the end of the day, it is still your personal choice.

[Titanium Dome]

One of the complications will be where the speakers are used.

When I had my L100s in my dorm room in 1971, they were the balls. When I took them over to the medium-sized auditorium in the music building for use in a music appreciation class, they kind of sucked.

All the other students thought they were great, but my feeling was one of consternation and :wtf:

That's when I learned that size/sensitivity/power handling all matter.

I think getting a kind of poll together that also divides things up a bit would be a useful exercise. I don't see merit in comparing the SAT10/MUSIC10 system in my miniscule home office to the 4430/B380 system in my very large work office to the PT800/PS1400 system in my living room.

However, if we looked at four-way, three-way, and two-way systems against their own kind, that might prove instructive. Maybe separate pro from consumer initially, then take the top contenders from each and have a final free-for-all among them.

We could start with a nomination process for speakers to be included, so we wouldn't have to consider every flippin' speaker JBL ever made. Only allow nominations of speakers you've actually owned or at least heard for a minimum number of hours/times. (Honor system, I know.) Less than a certain minimum number of nominations and a speaker is excluded from the comparison (not enough subjects) but can still be part of the discussion I guess.

None of this "I heard the K2 S9800 once at a trade show and it was the best speaker I ever heard" stuff. That's just too unreliable.

Once nominations are closed, then members could use a ranking system such as

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Loudspeaker%20evaluation.htm

When the final votes are tallied, then we'll have a general consensus that might be useful in discussions, realizing that my particular tastes may or may not be represented in the consensus. (In my case, probably not.) What would be most interesting is if many of our silent members participated and returned results even if they rarely or never post.

I'm sure the views normally expressed here do not exactly coincide with the views of our silent partners.

Yes, this would be a lot of work, but it might just get us working on something that everyone could participate in. You could look at it as a community building exercise.

----------

Caveats and constructive comments cheerfully accepted. :)

[moldyoldy]

The used/eBay market could sure be manipulated by the existence of such a list, since many wanna-bes base their decisions soley on various forum bits and pieces. Imagine how many ads for our top-rated models would link to the list. Reference is one thing, ratings another.

I sure wish someone would post a girlfriend-rating guide though....:bouncy:

[Mr. Widget]

When I had my L100s in my dorm room in 1971, they were the balls. When I took them over to the medium-sized auditorium in the music building for use in a music appreciation class, they kind of sucked.I agree completely. I hadn't heard the L100s in 20+ years... back then they were a commodity and I never really paid a heck of a lot of attention to them. But in the mid '90s I was in a used stereo shop one day and saw a clean pair of L100s and a Marantz 2275... I picked up this "ultimate dorm system" for a song and dragged it home. (I actually had a killer JBL Component System in the dorms but whatever...) I really didn't have high expectations for this system, but was curious to hear it so I set it up between my large electrostats and fired it up... ick. They seriously lacked the ability to create a musical landscape in my large and fairly live living room. I didn't really care though as I bought them for nostalgia and for my office. A few years later I set them up in a smallish bedroom and listened to them in more of a mid field situation... damn! I really got into them. They imaged and had detail and even enough bass to convince me I was listening to music.


Oh my god can we make this any more complicated.Rob, I don't particularly have any interest in a large cross-referenced collage of opinions, but what the hell... if a number of folks want to put it together more power to 'em. I doubt it will really be all that useful, but it may be fun for the participants.


Widget

[johnaec]

However, if we looked at four-way, three-way, and two-way systems against their own kind, that might prove instructive.Like this: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9530&highlight=4315a

I personally can't see trying to make it more complicated...

John

[speakerdave]

I don't think the comparison idea makes much sense except possibly the statement series.

As for all the others:

Within a series, the larger, more expensive speakers would naturally have something more to offer. And the largest and smallest speakers in a series are obviously aimed at different price points and purposes (control room vs main monitor, e.g.)

Between series there will be differences of technology and purpose which would make comparisons moot in most cases.

The statement series might be an interesting discussion because of the generally radical concepts used.

Finally, this work might already have been done. If you want to compare two specific speakers, try doing a search on these forums, and you might very well come up with a significant number of prior descriptions of the sound of those two speakers.

David

Edit: Right, Mr. Timbers's post does bring up one point that complicates my neat scenario, and that is that budget concerns may bring compromises in later systems that did not have to be made in earlier ones.

[Robh3606]

If you guys are serious and want to do it I am in just thought it was odd how this went from a request for oppinions to something that looked like a bit of work. I just want to keep it fun.

Rob:)

[Titanium Dome]

The used/eBay market could sure be manipulated by the existence of such a list, since many wanna-bes base their decisions soley on various forum bits and pieces. Imagine how many ads for our top-rated models would link to the list. Reference is one thing, ratings another.

I sure wish someone would post a girlfriend-rating guide though....:bouncy:


I have the template for girlfriend rating, because mine's a 10. :bouncy:

As a wife she'd be a 4 or a 5. :rotfl:

[Ducatista47]

OK, Ok. Original Question: "How do they (4345's) compare to the 250ti (soundwise)."

Stated intent: "Maybe we could begin with the original question, and take requests from there."

How did we get to matrices, with or without Neo? One to one comparisons. I mentioned L100 vs. VOTT to point out what is not possible to compare meaningfully.

Also stated: "Sure it is subjective as well as objective...What do you hear/think?"

I know there is a lot going on behind the scenes, I know we all have busy, complicated lives, but how did we get to where this has gone from what I said?

Perhaps a well placed "Fer Lord's sake, calm down" is in order.

This is not about first ammendment issues, fighting, bad toilet training or red vs blue states. No RTA is necessary to have an observation, either. Open to all, rich and poor alike. It is about what we individually think speakers sound like.

I very much like the posts so far that are actually about speakers, sound and rooms (the room rules, for better or worse, I know). The somewhat unrelated anxiety attacks are needless suffering, and frankly self-inflicted wounds.

And yes, just hearing one somewhere is no substitute for having lived with one. Kind of like one night stands vs girlfriends or wives.:D

Of course, if you want to build a database, feel free. I have not heard enough speakers to contribute much, but then that is my original problem!

Peace, Clark:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Of a more positive note it may be useful to gleen the long experience of one who has sold many of these..Michael Smith down here. Perhaps there are members in North America and Europe with similar background.

It would be interesting to ask them what was popular, why people made certain choices and their feedback...did they end up upgrading and so on.

Other than that the Library has a wealth of useful information.

At the end of the day you did arrange such as matrix you would probably find the outcome not necessarily a logical one. Comany offerings and market reactions can be very unpredicatable.

I think this is all part of the Heritage and its legacy.

Something that has not been raised is overall system voicing. What is the rest of your system and is that the same as another members? Many reviewers remark how a simple swap in the system bought an otherwise unappealing model to life. I know myself if I went back to what had had to start with the 4345's would sound frightful but my L100 might still sound okay.

Just food for thought but its all about having fun.

On another postive note, perhaps some of you who live in the same city can arrange a Sunday arvo gathering and do some double blind test comparions. I always find individual opinions highly emotive, far better is a consensus with pen and paper.

Ta ta for now.

The Doctor

[boputnam]

I've read and re-read this thread during my travels for the past few days.

In my opinion, this will bear no fruit. It is a far too complicated comparison of differently evolved systems, the acoustic impacts and impressions of which will be highly impacted by the reviewing environment.

Sad, but likely true, one needs to work their way up the food chain, trailing different systems to discover what works for them.

I thought I liked my dads Altec Boleros (and my little Corona's), but then I got that pair of 4312 L/R from a Boulder HiFi store in 1981. Wow. That was tops until just a few years ago I tried a 128H in them - not that I recommend swapping elements, but it seemed not an egregious engineering change - and the result had (to me) marvelous benefits to the low end.

Then, Audiobeer sold me a few pair of his 4313B's he had refinished. I refurbished the elements and was floored by the improvement over the 4312's. Simply amazing.

Then I found that in the right placement, the 4301B's are one of my most favorite designs, ever. :dont-know

Then, I flew a pair of 4408's in the master bedroom, replacing the Control 5's and was (and am) really, really pleased.

Then, I decided to reach really incredibly high, and I got really lucky and got the 4345's. They were good, but not great, at first. I took to refurbishing the elements and stuffed some new 2245H's into them, reworked my drive rack and front-end, and got really good at "tuning" the system to optimize the 4345 performance. They are an incredible cabinet, but they require a great deal of setting-up.

I don't recommend the 4345 to anyone - not that it matters, they are very rare, anyway. But unless you've got the right drive rack and ability to "tune" the system, move furniture around and otherwise physically improve the room, these won't please you.

Anyway, this started as a curt reply, but now I've elaborated the sense of my view(s). Sorry...

You won't appreciate having topped the peak unless you work your way up the trail. That is how you learn to discern the vagaries of what you are hearing and how to increase or lessen them to achieve the sound you like.

[Zilch]

Actually, the order ranking of what everybody has owned can work, if enough members participate, as it is amenable to statistical analysis.

Envision, for example, that L40 is always ranked above L100, but also always lower than L300 by others. That tells the tale of L300 vs. L100, within certain confidence limits, depending upon sample size, etc....

[Ducatista47]

I really appreciate all who have responded. The bottom line seems to be, from those most likely to know, that this was a very bad idea. The responses, while trying to be kind to me, are rife with justifiable skepticism.

One very nice member PM'd and said he was game to answer the only question I have actually asked. Perhaps he could PM me his observations, and I could pass them on to L100t Owner. That would bring the useful life of this unhappy thread to a satisfactory close.

The good ideas that appeared here can find new life in proper threads of their own. Really good people have wasted enough of their time being nice to me while explaining why this is all a waste of everyone's time. They could be adding to our knowledge and fun instead.

I asked Don to close or nuke this thread; that was unfair to him, I suppose. Who is the moderator of this forum, the Lansing Product General Information Forum? Could you please close this thread? I made a mistake, can we stop the bleeding, please?

Peace, Clark:)

[4313B]

Additionally, Mr. Widget or Robh3606 can delete anything anywhere.

[scott fitlin]

The author of this thread has requested it to be closed, and I have granted the request.